A Thread for All Seasons: This Story Is Over, But Still Goes On.

[KingOfHearts]

31 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I agree, and this is exactly what A&E wants too.  And it's precisely those polar opposite goals which has failed over and over again since Rumple was resurrected in 3B.  Even a gradual forward-movement-slight-backslide with an overall trend towards redemption would have been better than the 180 degree see-saw that occurs abruptly every half a season.  A&E thinks Robert is such a great actor that giving a sadface or having Belle say out loud that Rumple is good deep inside will automatically absolve all his deception and homicidal actions.  At the end of the day, the character which was being completely undermined was Belle.

The majority of writing problems on this show can be explained by, "they want to have their cake and eat it too". That explains plot vs. characters, Regina's flip-flopping, and the Rumpbelle cycle.

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

At the end of the day, the character which was being completely undermined was Belle.

Just like Emma and Snow got railroaded in service of Regina-pandering and were never the same. 

Edited February 12, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

For all A&E claimed that they were interested in family, they didn't care a bit about the relationship between Belle and her father, or Snow and her father, or heck, Neal's final scene with Henry was with an imposter!  

[Rumsy4]

Sometimes I still can't believe A&E had so many talented actors in the cast, and absolutely wasted them. I'm not only talking about the travesty of having actors like Ginnifer Goodwin and Josh Dallas standing around like background scenery for several seasons (besides the fact that it was their chemistry that originally made the Show) or have Emilie de Ravin spend most of her screen time napping. They turned Michael Socha (Will Scarlet) into a series regular and used him for a sum total of 15 minutes the entire season. The next season, they made Sean Maguire a series regular and began neglecting him right from the start, and barely gave him anything in the B plot in preparation to killing off Robin Hood (like with MRJ over Neal's exit). They hired veteran actors play single generic scenes (like Aurora's father or Belle's mother). And neglected their supposed protagonist in what they knew could've been the final season (I guess they doubled Lana's screen time in S6 in case it was the last). 

The Show has been about Regina and Rumple right from the start. It was not overt in S1 and 2A, but 2B onwards, that's the actual Show we got. Regina was consistently written as the protagonist of the series. She has had the most PoV-narratives, the highest number of flashbacks, the most sympathetic treatment, and ultimately the most screen time. Regina got everything they gave Emma. If it was up to them, A&E would have increased Robert Carlyle's screen time just like Lana's. I'm pretty sure he had some kind of special contract that limited his working hours in comparison to the other actors (I believe he always got additional vacation time). 

Edited February 12, 2018 by Rumsy4

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

Sometimes I still can't believe A&E had so many talented actors in the cast, and absolutely wasted them.

It really is tragic, as they have such a great cast, in the regulars, the supporting characters, and even in minor roles, who have breathed life into generic roles and bad writing, who made me stay invested in the story, even when the story itself was crap. This season...less so, as the cast isn't really up to the standards of the past cast members, but still, its probably hard for ANY actor to make a lot of this years dialogue sound natural. And, of course, everything has to somehow be about Regina and Rumple, and that kills the ensemble that they originally created. You cant have an ensemble cast when the writers only write for two characters. There were so many subplots and story arcs that seemed almost inevitable, or were so clearly set up to be interesting, and so many just...disappeared, for the sake of giving Regina (and Rumple, to a lesser extent) more and more stories. They set up so much stuff, like the fairytale people merging with the real world, the sketchy aspects of the fairy world (including Grumpy and his fairy girlfriend), the ship teasing between Red and Whale (and later, both characters in general), the Land of Untold Stories, and so much more, all seemed right there, and could have been really interesting ways to incorporate the actors better, and increase world building, but they never did. I think at one point, A&E even said they meant to explain why Will Scarlette/The Knave was around and why he was hanging around Belle and not his wife in Wonderland, but "that would have meant less time for the Regina story, so we couldn't fit that in" meaning that they not only wasted a good actor, they overridden the characters happy ending out of laziness and their Regina obsession. 

It became so obvious over the course of the show that Regina was their "real" hero, and everyone else had to take a backseat to her story, and it meant that no one else got character growth (unless its egg napping, parent stabbing ret cons to create drama in the present) or to do anything really interesting. Originally, the main characters were Emma, Snow, and Charming, with Henry as a kind of junior main character, and Regina was the Big Bad, with Rumple as the wild card. Everyone else was supporting, but still had their own things going for them. However, it eventually became clear that the main characters were supposed to be Regina, Rumple, Emma, Hook, Henry, Snow/Charming as a duo, and everyone else was set dressing. 
 

[Camera One]

7 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I think at one point, A&E even said they meant to explain why Will Scarlette/The Knave was around and why he was hanging around Belle and not his wife in Wonderland, but "that would have meant less time for the Regina story, so we couldn't fit that in" meaning that they not only wasted a good actor, they overridden the characters happy ending out of laziness and their Regina obsession. 
 

I forgot all about that.  One thing we could do after this show ends is come up with a Top 10 List of A&E's quotes.  I think that one might take the win:

“It’s just, you know, there’s just so many…there’s just so many people that it’s like, it’s sometimes hard to do that story and sacrifice Regina’s story. That’s just showbiz.” Eddy at SDCC 2015

[KingOfHearts]

5 minutes ago, Camera One said:

“It’s just, you know, there’s just so many…there’s just so many people that it’s like, it’s sometimes hard to do that story and sacrifice Regina’s story. That’s just showbiz.” Eddy at SDCC 2015

I really don't want to hate Regina, but all the time they spent on her story really didn't do any service to her character. Most of her flashbacks were pointless, very little of her character development actually stuck, and it just made her annoying because she was as static as a coat rack for long periods of time. 

[Camera One]

Kudos to them because I actually still don't hate Regina.  In fact, Season 7 has catapulted her into the Top 2.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Camera One

[CCTC]

4 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

because she was as static as a coat rack for long periods of time.

This is where A&E are genius in the writing - this has all been a build up so she will know how to deal with the hangers of evil.

[Camera One]

I was reading an interview from March of last year:

Quote

How can we expect Snow and Charming’s sleeping curse to play into the rest of the season?

Horowitz: It plays in right away... Their true love is kind of where this show started, and this storyline is a test of that love and what they can overcome. Along the way, we’re going to get another Snow and Charming flashback.

Kitsis: To be honest, we’re going to get a couple Snow and Charming flashbacks.

Horowitz: Yeah, there’s a couple of them coming up in the second half, which we’re really excited about.

Could someone help me with the math?  We got "a couple" of Snowing flashbacks?  I guess "Awake" and the musical episode?  But that's still just two.  I guess "a couple" is defined as 2, so they're technically right.  LOL at the "To be honest..."

[KingOfHearts]

6 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Kudos to them because I actually still don't hate Regina.  In fact, Season 7 has catapulted her into the Top 2.

 

The only pointed I really hated her was during my infamous 6x09 rant against her. But in S7, it's as if none of that ever happened, and Regina hasn't waffled from her redemption in the slightest. So now I just feel kind of "meh" about her. I mostly just find her kind of stupid and too trusting. Her shipping Jacinda with Henry made me lose any respect for her. She's this season's Mary Margaret, standing around giving half-baked advice about hope and relationships.

Edited February 12, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[tennisgurl]

Regina, after the second season, basically had two kinds of flashbacks. It was either:

Regina is victimized and manipulated by somebody. 

   or 

Regina kills and tortures tons of innocent people than cries and we`re supposed to feel sorry for her and not the several burning villages she just razed in the background. 

In many ways, Regina is just as much of a victim of A&Es love as the other characters were. They tried so hard to make her sympathetic, that they made her look stupid and without agency at best, and dangerously unstable at worst. I've made peace with Regina, more or less, at this point. I dont hate her the way I used to, but I dont find her very interesting either. We`ve spent so much time on her, that I've lost interest, and the things I used to like about her are long gone. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The only pointed I really hated her was during my infamous 6x09 rant against her. But in S7, it's as if none of that ever happened, and Regina hasn't waffled from her redemption in the slightest. So now I just feel kind of "meh" about her. I mostly just find her kind of stupid and too trusting.

I don't really hate any character in S7.   Really, the only thing I really got worked up about was Rumple's denim ensemble.  I hated that with more passion than I've felt about anything on this show in a long time.

 

9 minutes ago, CCTC said:

This is where A&E are genius in the writing - this has all been a build up so she will know how to deal with the hangers of evil.

The hangers of evil are probably the resting place for the Rumple's jeans and jean jacket;  and that shirt that doesn't button right probably is hogging two hangers.  All these items were brought to Hyperion Heights from a denim hell dimension.

[KingOfHearts]

Just now, ParadoxLost said:

I don't really hate any character in S7. 

I... can't say the same. Fingers crossed Murderella bites the dust.

[Rumsy4]

47 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

 Rumple as the wild card. 

How I wish he had maintained that status. That's what made him so interesting in the beginning. In fact, he was one of my favorite characters for the first two seasons. They made him straight up unsympathetic assh*le after the 3B finale. Now, he just bores me. The writers manage to turn many people off their favs. That's what happened to you with Regina, I think @KingOfHearts

27 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Kudos to them because I actually still don't hate Regina.  In fact, Season 7 has catapulted her into the Top 2.

That's a back-handed compliment if I ever saw one. I can't say I hate Regina this season; I loathed her in S6. Oh, and Zelena being in S7 is practically a relief! lol

Your No. 1 is fav of S7 is Murderella no doubt. ;-p 

Edited February 12, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Guest]

1 minute ago, KingOfHearts said:

I... can't say the same. Fingers crossed Murderella bites the dust.

I can't even get myself worked up enough to hate Jacinda. She's annoying and I'd rather not see more of her story; but I could say that about a lot of things.

I think a lot of my apathy comes from there being nothing that interests me at all.  If there was something that seemed like it would be entertaining to watch that they were ignoring, I'd probably have stronger feelings about what they were showing.

[KingOfHearts]

13 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

That's what happened to you with Regina, I think @KingOfHearts

If you read some of my really old posts on here, you'll see that I used to be a Regina apologist. I defended her quite a bit. After reading everyone else's thoughts on her and really analyzing her, my positive opinion of her slowly diminished. I didn't like where the writers went with her in later seasons, either. 6x09 broke the camel's back. 

S4 killed Rumple for me. His character became so two-dimensional because his motivations were not backed by anything human. He just wanted power because he's a villain. He had no reason to betray Belle. Everyone trusted him, he held all the cards. Then he just gave it all away because the Hat just so happened to show up. Before that, he was distracted by whatever Big Bad wanted to hold him hostage. (Pan and Zelena.) And before that, he had Bae/Neal. Belle just sucked as a goal for him because she was so easily won over. He had to mess up really bad to lose her for five minutes. At least there was conflict with Neal, since he didn't trust his father at all. The Rumpbelle angst was phony since Rumple always knew she'd take him back eventually. He knew there were no real stakes.

Edited February 12, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

17 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

6x09 broke the camel's back. 

Her self-righteous rant against Zelena was one of her most hypocritical moments in the Show. It's a shame that Zelena has had a better redemption arc than Regina. It reminds me of the Biblical story of the man whose humongous debts were forgiven by the king, but he turned around and threw a man who owed him like five bucks into prison.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

41 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

S4 killed Rumple for me. His character became so two-dimensional because his motivations were not backed by anything human. He just wanted power because he's a villain. He had no reason to betray Belle. Everyone trusted him, he held all the cards. Then he just gave it all away because the Hat just so happened to show up. Before that, he was distracted by whatever Big Bad wanted to hold him hostage. (Pan and Zelena.) And before that, he had Bae/Neal. Belle just sucked as a goal for him because she was so easily won over. He had to mess up really bad to lose her for five minutes. At least there was conflict with Neal, since he didn't trust his father at all. The Rumpbelle angst was phony since Rumple always knew she'd take him back eventually. He knew there were no real stakes.

 

Me too.  When he was looking for Bae, he had a tangible goal.  I couldn't buy his quest for ultimate power, because Rumple as The Dark One could pretty much do anything he wanted to do anyway.  When the viewer can't believe in the premise, everything just falls apart.  And they made the same mistake again in 5B, when he insisted on harnessing the powers of all the Dark Ones.  Seriously?  What was the point?  So yet again, they returned everything to the status-quo, when it would have been more interesting to see Rumple struggle without ultimate power.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

8 hours ago, superloislane said:

I don't know - didn't Robert and Emilie get asked about Rumbelle being abusive and both of them were totally shocked that anyone would think this? I didn't think that was that long ago

That was actually at Comic Con before S4, so it was years ago. The actors have changed how they discuss the relationship because S6 was not romantic and Emilie at least did not want her young fans thinking that it was okay to be in a relationship like that.

Both talked glowingly about their S7 episode, but a lot of that had to do with the relationship between the actors and it being a goodbye to seven years of Rumbelle. Plus, they are paid to promote what the writers want and we're supposed to see a sweet relationship at the end. We're not supposed to remember that Rumpel literally put a tracker on Belle so she could never leave him and then magically locked her on a ship, which nearly led to her death. Oh and then was planning to take the baby from her. Instead we're supposed to believe that Rumpel gave up his shady ways offscreen (after endless previous flip flops and no real apology or reason for Belle to take him back after the horrific shit he pulled in 6A) and they lived happily ever after. 

I wonder if the writers remember the part where they showed Rumpel torturing someone in Seattle. Yep, he's totally changed his ways. 

[Free]

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

Me too.  When he was looking for Bae, he had a tangible goal.  I couldn't buy his quest for ultimate power, because Rumple as The Dark One could pretty much do anything he wanted to do anyway.  When the viewer can't believe in the premise, everything just falls apart.  And they made the same mistake again in 5B, when he insisted on harnessing the powers of all the Dark Ones.  Seriously?  What was the point?  So yet again, they returned everything to the status-quo, when it would have been more interesting to see Rumple struggle without ultimate power.

It's pretty much what happened when they threw the Bae/Neal plot out the window, Rumple was left with no tangible motivation whatsoever, he reunited with both his son and LI in S2 and A&E didn't know what to do, they wanted to keep both the DO and Rumple's 'redemption' and the same goes for Regina's character.

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Free said:

It's pretty much what happened when they threw the Bae/Neal plot out the window, Rumple was left with no tangible motivation whatsoever, he reunited with both his son and LI in S2 and A&E didn't know what to do, they wanted to keep both the DO and Rumple's 'redemption' and the same goes for Regina's character.

Its too bad they couldn't see what they could do with Rumple. Starting with Rumple and Bae/Neal's relationship. I can't believe after all he did to find Bae he would just walk away after one meeting. He would keep trying. Maybe Neal would go off on him about what he did to find him. There was still the matter of Rumple murdering Bae/Neal's mother. That is something that should have been brought up. There was Henry. The boy he seemed to like and be charmed by in season one. Even if Neal refused to have anything to do with him, why wouldn't he have turned to Henry? Either building a relationship with him or using him as a Bae replacement. Where was everyone's reaction to learning Rumple's part in the Dark Curse? Where were people storming his shop to get their stuff back. Or his victims who were already in town attempting to kill him. There was the scene where people went after Regina in the first episode of season two. Where was the one going after Rumple? As far as they knew at that moment he was without power. Not one person wanted to try and kill him?          

[andromeda331]

13 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

How I wish he had maintained that status. That's what made him so interesting in the beginning. In fact, he was one of my favorite characters for the first two seasons. They made him straight up unsympathetic assh*le after the 3B finale. Now, he just bores me. The writers manage to turn many people off their favs. That's what happened to you with Regina, I think 

So do I. He really was so interesting when he was the wild card. You weren't sure exactly what he was going to do. When he backed Emma and set her up to confess that Rumple started the fire and he tells her that was all part of the plan. His playing with Regina in the beginning she couldn't be completely sure if he knew everything or not. Wondering why he seemed to be helping Regina and Emma. Why he was helping Snow and Regina. They should have kept him the wild card.       

[KingOfHearts]

14 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

So do I. He really was so interesting when he was the wild card. You weren't sure exactly what he was going to do. When he backed Emma and set her up to confess that Rumple started the fire and he tells her that was all part of the plan. His playing with Regina in the beginning she couldn't be completely sure if he knew everything or not. Wondering why he seemed to be helping Regina and Emma. Why he was helping Snow and Regina. They should have kept him the wild card.       

That's what I liked about Zelena in S5 - she was a wild card too. You weren't sure when she was going to play nice or betray everyone to Arthur. She wasn't just a flat out villain - her choices reflected whatever she required in the moment. 

[andromeda331]

1 minute ago, KingOfHearts said:

That's what I liked about Zelena in S5 - she was a wild card too. You weren't sure when she was going to play nice or betray everyone to Arthur. She wasn't just a flat out villain - her choices reflected whatever she required in the moment. 

Me too. Her choices made sense to her and that's what she would chose. It was also nice that the heroes didn't trust her. Which makes sense that they wouldn't give what she had done previously.

[Camera One]

To me, Zelena was a distraction and felt crammed into 5A unnecessarily to generate filler conflict.  They made her somehow knowledgeable enough to make Merlin even more useless.  The heroes didn't trust her but she still got the upper hand in the end (typical A&E writing) by making Snow into an idiot once again, while making viewers feel sorry for her with the over-the-top forced mute-ness.  Ultimately, she made everything in Camelot worse for Emma and never acknowledged it.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

On 2/10/2018 at 9:05 PM, Camera One said:

I guess a more accurate description than a plot-driven show might an outcome or surprise-driven show, whereby A&E are only thinking about the surprise twist at the end, or the reunion of a separated couple, but have no interest in how they get there. 

Maybe "moment-driven" is the best way to describe their writing. I think I said in another discussion that they were basically writing for Twitter and tumblr, that they want to have moments that generate "OMG!" tweets, gifs, and YouTube clips, and everything else around those moments is just filler. Who cares whether or not the moments actually make sense, as long as the moments hit you in the feels. But sometimes that means it's like a joke told by someone with a bad memory, where they skip or forget parts of the setup, get sidetracked on tangents that don't actually apply to the punchline, and sometimes bring in parts of other jokes, then they get to the punchline, and when you don't laugh because no matter how good a punchline it is, the joke doesn't work without the setup, and they accuse you of not having a sense of humor.

And sometimes there are problems because the moments they're creating aren't necessarily the moments we want or expect to see. Like the 4a finale, again. I think they were more concerned with the moment of Belle showing up at the last second with the dagger and forcing Rumple out of town than they were with how Emma reacted to Hook being in jeopardy. The whole Hook and Rumple subplot was about getting to that moment when Belle got to have a Crowning Moment of Awesome in catching Rumple red-handed and getting the upper hand on him. And it was a great moment. But a lot of the audience had been hoping that the storyline was also about Hook and Emma, considering that they started the season with her being afraid of getting involved with him because everyone she'd loved had died, and then they set up all the potential clues, like the voice mail message, his odd behavior like saying goodbye to her as though this was the last time, with tears in his eyes, his managing to overcome Rumple's control enough to signal her. So we thought we were being set up for a big moment that would deal with all that and resolve it, and we got nothing. The writers had achieved the moment they wanted and didn't care about anything else, and then we had to move on to the next big moment, which was the revelation of the room full of books (which is probably on a par with the coat hangers as a season-ending cliffhanger). No time to deal with anything else!

23 hours ago, superloislane said:

In an interview for season 7, Lana said she was promised a love interest and a happy ending for her to sign on again so I think she's far more interested in Regina getting nice things all the time rather than having acting challenges for herself. That's what happens when you become the number one fan of your own character.

I guess it all depends on what an actor likes about acting. I recall the Nerd HQ panel from a few years ago, in which they were asked what got them into acting. Jen and Colin talked about enjoying becoming another person, with Jen also liking the process behind creating a character, and Josh joked about liking the applause. But that kind of fits with what we've seen of their careers. Colin seems to like getting as far from his real self as possible (it's interesting that he used a picture of Old Hook for his post about the show's cancellation). We've seen how much research Jen does for a role. Josh spent a lot of his career on the stage, where you get direct applause. It seems like Lana is the kind of actor who merges her identity with her character, so she wants her character to be more like her and wants her character to get things she'd want.

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

To me, Zelena was a distraction and felt crammed into 5A unnecessarily to generate filler conflict.  They made her somehow knowledgeable enough to make Merlin even more useless.  The heroes didn't trust her but she still got the upper hand in the end (typical A&E writing) by making Snow into an idiot once again, while making viewers feel sorry for her with the over-the-top forced mute-ness.  Ultimately, she made everything in Camelot worse for Emma and never acknowledged it.

Zelena was somewhat amusing early in 5A, but to be too amused by her, you have to forget that she's there because she murdered an entirely innocent woman who was on the verge of being reunited with her family and then raped a man and was carrying a child he didn't want to have with her. When you think of that, it's hard to find her funny. Even the mute stuff was creepy because that was Regina enjoying having control over others a bit too much, as we saw with the way she used the dagger against Emma, and that was treated as sassy. And then most of the horrible stuff that ended up happening was facilitated by Zelena. She was the one who betrayed them, she was the one who bound Merlin to Excalibur so he could be forced to attack them, and that led to Hook being wounded, which led to all the rest of the Dark One stuff. Then she was the one who spilled the beans to Hook, which undermined all Emma's attempts to fix things before he could go nuts. There's no reason any of them should have any desire to associate with her.

I don't think I'd have minded Zelena as a wild card, but she was being treated like wacky comic relief in a way that entirely ignored what she'd done and the harm she'd caused.

[tennisgurl]

Honestly, Rumples story ended after he sacrificed himself to stop his dad/Pan. His arc was complete right there, finally standing up to his absentee father, proving that he had grown beyond his cowardice, and sacrificing himself for his son, the way he failed to do when Bae was sucked into the Land Without Magic, which started the entire plot. That was where his character should have ended, naturally. Yeah it would have sucked to lose Bobby, but its better than him being stuck playing a Rumple who no longer has a point on the show, or a compelling character arc. He just kind of flopped around, being evil when the plot needed him to be, and less evil when the plot needed him to be. He should have just died and stayed dead, but after finally growing, for real. 

[KingOfHearts]

I don't focus too much on who deserves negative consequences. It helps when you view the characters as cartoons, throwing realistic morality out the window. Murder is more like eliminating a player from the game. I've actually never cared for any of the victims of bloodshed on this show. Graham, Neal, Marian, Robin. I don't have any desire to give them justice because I didn't find their characters captivating to begin with. What does frustrate me though is their murderers getting mercy and still falling back repeatedly. When Regina and Rumple, who have killed many people, still act terrible yet get treated as heroes, I have to roll my eyes. I can tolerate them not getting punished enough to truly reprimand their crimes (because let's face it, they both should have gone to hell seasons ago), but it's the backtracking that doesn't make narrative sense. The story just needs to feel good, with justice to some degree that at least shows some self-awareness.

Edited February 13, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

54 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Honestly, Rumples story ended after he sacrificed himself to stop his dad/Pan. His arc was complete right there, finally standing up to his absentee father, proving that he had grown beyond his cowardice, and sacrificing himself for his son, the way he failed to do when Bae was sucked into the Land Without Magic, which started the entire plot. That was where his character should have ended, naturally.

I agree the end of 3A would have been a natural place to end the character.  There were several other times later where he could have been salvaged.  After 3B, he could have suffered from PTSD from being Zelena's captive and from being resurrected, which could have caused him to re-evaluate.  After rejected by Belle in 4A, he could have really suffered in the Land Without Magic, and come back a different man.  Finally, after 5A, he could have remained magic-less, and dealt with no longer having power.  Unfortunately, time and time again, A&E chose to revert him back to Power Grubbing Lying Selfish Dark One, only to show his inner Wumple so Belle would take him back.  

Edited February 13, 2018 by Camera One

[Guest]

Any other writers could have done a lot with Rumple having a neutral heart after Emma took the Darkness,

[KingOfHearts]

3 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Any other writers could have done a lot with Rumple having a neutral heart after Emma took the Darkness,

Let's remove the Evil Queen from Regina. Oh. She's exactly the same without her.

Let's remove all the darkness from Rumple and make him a pure hero. Oh. He's exactly the same without it.

Let's give Snow White a dark spot on her heart. Oh. She's she still herself with no consequences.

But you know - Hook's hand may or may not be cursed! Keep the hook! Beware the hand in the jar! (This is why we can't have nice things.)

Edited February 13, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[CCTC]

42 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Let's remove all the darkness from Rumple and make him a pure hero. Oh. He's exactly the same without it.

Let's have Rumple absorb all the Dark Ones and be the same as before, have no adverse physical effects and have no one really call him on it except for Emma seeming annoyed with him because her boyfriend died for nothing, and even that was dropped by the end of the season.

[KingOfHearts]

13 minutes ago, CCTC said:

Let's have Rumple absorb all the Dark Ones and be the same as before, have no adverse physical effects and have no one really call him on it except for Emma seeming annoyed with him because her boyfriend died for nothing, and even that was dropped by the end of the season.

Nobody cares that Rumple is practically all-powerful and could choose to kill everyone in an instant. That development seemed like it was going to lead up to a Final Battle against him, but now he just wants to forfeit it to die and be with Belle. Lame!
 

[Camera One]

If the show is cancelled, does that mean we'll never get to see Lily again and find out who her father is?  *insert crying emoticon*

[Rumsy4]

9 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Let's give Snow White a dark spot on her heart. Oh. She's she still herself with no consequences.

Oh, there were consequences alright. She turned into Regina-coddling boring frump Mary Margaret. 

[RolloTomasi]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

Oh, there were consequences alright. She turned into Regina-coddling boring frump Mary Margaret. 

As someone who loved season one Mary Margaret, I protest! Even Season One Mary Maragaret had more of a backbone with Regina than Snow had in later seasons. She also had storylines (dumb ones, but actual, story-progressing storylines) and a real relationship with Emma. Mary Margaret was waaaaaaay better than Snow the last few years. 

[Rumsy4]

On 2/12/2018 at 2:10 AM, KAOS Agent said:

The actors have changed how they discuss the relationship

Agree. And it's not just Carlyle and de Ravin. In earlier seasons, Ginnifer Goodwin would also tow the line when it came to promoting the Show. The earliest crack I remember was over the Crypt S*x. She was saying how hard it was for her to come up with a reasonable explanation as to why MM was promoting adultery, and finally decided that MM was just being supportive to Regina. The biggest break came in S6 interviews, where she made it clear she thought Snow was insane to not have gone through the door to little Emma in the "Awake" episode. As a mother, she said she could not understand it at all.

The writers consistently promote horrible morality in order to justify their villains and make the so-called good guys look pathetic. 

42 minutes ago, RolloTomasi said:

Mary Margaret was waaaaaaay better than Snow the last few years. 

I get what you're saying, but that's the same reason I don't want to call her "Snow", because of how awesome Snow was in the early seasons. haha. I've used "Snowy Margaret" before--that may fit better.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Writing Wrongs]

What are some of your worst storylines, backstories or retcons from the show?

I hated the Cora backstory with being engaged to Leopold. It made no sense.

[Rumsy4]

26 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

What are some of your worst storylines, backstories or retcons from the show?

Where do I begin?

My top worst storyline is the eggnapping. This was the beginning of the end of Snowing as we knew them. It made them out to be terrible human beings who would separate a child from its mother, even if they thought it was a literal dragon for some idiotic reason. Isaac was supposed to have orchestrated the whole thing by misuse of his authorial powers, and yet, Snowing were held responsible for their actions. Once they realized what they'd done, Season 1 Snowing would have tried to find the child and bring her back to its mother. S4 Snowing just moved on, because who cares about their subjects being slaughtered en masse by the Evil Queen or fetectomies as long as they were happy, amirite. 

My second worst nominee is Hook murdering David's father. It made no sense because it was OOC for Hook to hide his reputation as a blood-thirsty pirate (in fact he was very protective of that image), plus he was living in Neverland at the time. So, it's not like King George could come after him. It was useless angst and led to the worst storyline for Captain Swan. It ruined the pairing for me for a while. Even now, I have to ignore it to enjoy CS. It would've made more sense if Hook had taken David's father with him to Neverland to save his life, and he'd died there of natural causes or at the hand of the Lost Boys. That would still have created some conflict with David when he found out, but not the crap we got.

My third choice is the "Baelfire was evil all along" retcon. This may seem trivial compared to the rest, but this retcon touched the very premise of the Show and sort of ruined the very foundation it was built on. It is basically the "Han shot first" retcon for Rumple. 

Edited February 13, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Rumsy4]

20 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Zelena was somewhat amusing early in 5A, but to be too amused by her, you have to forget that she's there because she murdered an entirely innocent woman who was on the verge of being reunited with her family and then raped a man and was carrying a child he didn't want to have with her.

I started liking Zelena in S6. By then, she wasn't going on wild-eyed insane rants. Regina was treating her like crap, even though they'd both been literally the same kind of villains. Zelena actually killed Hades to save Regina's life, but Regina never acknowledged it, and instead, blamed her for Robin's death. Regina was the one who pressurized everyone to give Zades a chance and Robin into handing over his child to the couple (Robin was a moron to have agreed). Zelena lost her magic at the end of S6 as a consequence of fixing her mistakes (even if she apparently got it back offscreen by S7). And--nobody coddled her like they all coddle Regina or Belle makes excuses for Rumple. Honestly, she should have been brought on as a regular for S7 instead of a bunch of the other newbies.

[Kktjones]

13 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

37 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

What are some of your worst storylines, backstories or retcons from the show?

Where do I begin?

My top worst storyline is the eggnapping. This was the beginning of the end of Snowing as we knew them. It made them out to be terrible human beings who would separate a child from its mother, even if they thought it was a literal dragon for some idiotic reason. Isaac was supposed to have orchestrated the whole thing by misuse of his authorial powers, and yet, Snowing were held responsible for their actions. Once they realized what they'd done, Season 1 Snowing would have tried to find the child and bring her back to its mother. S4 Snowing just moved on, because who cares about their subjects being slaughtered en masse by the Evil Queen or fetectomies as long as they were happy, amirite. 

My second worst nominee is Hook murdering David's father. It made no sense because it was OOC for Hook to hide his reputation as a blood-thirsty pirate (in fact he was very protective of that image), plus he was living in Neverland at the time. So, it's not like King George could come after him. It was useless angst and led to the worst storyline for Captain Swan. It ruined the pairing for me for a while. Even now, I have to ignore it to enjoy CS. It would've made more sense if Hook had taken David's father with him to Neverland to save his life, and he'd died there of natural causes or at the hand of the Lost Boys. That would still have created some conflict with David when he found out, but not the crap we got.

My third choice is the "Baelfire was evil all along" retcon. This may seem trivial compared to the rest, but this retcon touched the very premise of the Show and sort of ruined the very foundation it was built on. It is basically the "Han shot first" retcon for Rumple. 

There are SO many terrible retcons over the last three seasons, it's hard to narrow it down. I heartily agree with all three of the ones @Rumsy4 listed. Especially Hook murdering David's father. Not only did it make no sense, there was no reason for it as no one even cared in the end. It was done 100% for shock value. 

I would also say the retcon in "Awake" where Snow & Charming see Emma through the door, but don't go to her, is one of the worst. I have to pretend that didn't happen every time I see them interact with Emma. 

Next would be Hook murdering his father. Everything about this retcon was completely unbelievable. It somehow fit into the events of S2? Hook's father survived as long as he did through a sleeping curse and a TLK from a nurse he never met? Regina somehow knew about this? Hook killed him and left his half brother an orphan? It was all ridiculous.

Finally, I hated the whole Emma & Cleo story. It takes so much away in terms of how Emma became Emma, why she had a hard time getting close to people, etc. For me it really killed her characterization, so I just pretend it never happened.  

[PixiePaws1]

Worst retcons?  So many to choose from.....

Regina doing light magic..without a heart!!! What absolutely effing crap was that!!?? 

[KingOfHearts]

4 hours ago, Kktjones said:

Finally, I hated the whole Emma & Cleo story. It takes so much away in terms of how Emma became Emma, why she had a hard time getting close to people, etc. For me it really killed her characterization, so I just pretend it never happened.  

I hate almost every retcon they put into Emma's backstory. Her love affair with Neal was the only part that made sense. Everything with August, Ingrid, Merlin, Lily, Cleo, and Snowing was chock full of BS. From the Pilot, it was explicitly inferred that Emma was an orphan who grew up in the real world alone. She became a strong, independent woman on her own merit and experiences. But later we learned she was manipulated the whole way, had run-ins with various fairy tale characters, and 100% did not need to grow up alone to be the Savior. August could have been stuck around, Geppetto didn't have to lie, Ingrid could have made better choices about revealing her intentions, the Apprentice could have approached her like he did with Lily, and Snowing could have walked through the door. The show hinges on Snowing having no choice but to give Emma away to grow up in another land by herself, but there's so many holes in that you could make swiss cheese.

Edited February 13, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

5 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

What are some of your worst storylines, backstories or retcons from the show?

100% first of all would be the eggbaby. Everything about that was horrible and offensive, from a pregnant woman being judged on her worth as a hero based on the fetus she's carrying, to the out-of-character nature of it, to the fact that it was the kind of thing that should have come up before in some of the situations they'd been in, to the fact that Emma was left having to apologize and make up to a person who screwed her over repeatedly, to the fact that it ended up being utterly irrelevant. You'd think that Emma having had a darkectomy might have mattered or made a difference when she became a Dark One, but it wasn't even mentioned. It was utter character assassination for no good reason.

Then I'd have to say the Cleo flashback for Emma, since it contradicted known continuity and made no sense for her backstory. Her criminal record was sealed as a juvenile, and it took crooked efforts to get it in season one, so how could she have had a bounty hunter after her when she was 26? She couldn't have had any kind of license to work as a bail bondsperson or carry a weapon if she had a criminal conviction as an adult, and even if she was found not guilty of whatever trial she skipped out on, the fact that she skipped bail would have counted against her. The general fanon of her prison experience as a teen having scared her straight so that she turned her life around made so much more sense for her character than that a bounty hunter who helped her get away (and that wouldn't have meant the warrant against her went away) made her take on a new role in life.

And then I think Hook killing his father. Regardless of what they said about it fitting perfectly into the season 2 episode, it doesn't. There's no way to make it fit. Hook being willing/able to kill his father had absolutely nothing to do with his willingness or ability to kill Cora, so it was a stupid test (especially since he did flip and didn't kill Cora). Then there's all the stupidity about how Brennan was still alive, with true love between people who never even met. And while Hook does have a temper, and I could imagine him lashing out at his father if he found him again, we've also seen that he's incredibly triggered by the idea of a child being abandoned. He might have killed his father upon that first meeting, but not after he knew there was a child, and he wouldn't have left that child alone. There's also the problem of how Regina knew what he did and how he felt about it, when she wasn't there, and even if she had a spy mirror on him, she couldn't have known how he felt.

[KingOfHearts]

7 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

And then I think Hook killing his father. Regardless of what they said about it fitting perfectly into the season 2 episode, it doesn't. There's no way to make it fit. Hook being willing/able to kill his father had absolutely nothing to do with his willingness or ability to kill Cora, so it was a stupid test (especially since he did flip and didn't kill Cora). Then there's all the stupidity about how Brennan was still alive, with true love between people who never even met. And while Hook does have a temper, and I could imagine him lashing out at his father if he found him again, we've also seen that he's incredibly triggered by the idea of a child being abandoned. He might have killed his father upon that first meeting, but not after he knew there was a child, and he wouldn't have left that child alone. There's also the problem of how Regina knew what he did and how he felt about it, when she wasn't there, and even if she had a spy mirror on him, she couldn't have known how he felt.

It made little narrative sense not to include Brennan in the Underworld. They introduced him in the episode leading up to it, immediately killed him, had Liam down there, and needed Hook to get over his guilt. I don't understand why you would insert someone as important to Hook's backstory, in an arc somewhat about him no less, only to forget he ever existed. When you really looked at it, The Swan Song flashbacks had little to do with anything. Chekhov's arsenal.

Edited February 14, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[PixiePaws1]

26 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

It made little narrative sense not to include Brennan in the Underworld. They introduced him in the episode leading up to it, immediately killed him, had Liam down there, and needed Hook to get over his guilt. I don't understand why you would insert someone as important to Hook's backstory, in an arc somewhat about him no less, only to forget he ever existed. When you really looked at it, The Swan Song flashbacks had little to do with anything. Chekhov's arsenal.

Underworld? All i remember about that was Emma saving Killian from the river , CS' heartbreaking good bye and the great 'stubble sandwich' adventure...I blocked all that other utter GARBAGE out!

[Camera One]

You all have already hit the most offensive retcons.  Eggbaby is top for me as well.  

Other retcons not mentioned thus far that I didn't like was finding out that Belle knew all this bad stuff about Rumple beforehand.  Another one would be deciding that Liam murdered a ship full of sailors.  A third would be August having so much insider information and meetings with the Apprentice, etc.  

Edited February 14, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

The retcon I hate the most is the fact Snow and Charming had the opportunity to execute Regina and didn't. Not only that, but they also got free protection spells from Rumple so that literally every other person in their kingdom was vulnerable but them. Sure, Rumple would have saved her anyway, but they didn't know that. Nobody but Rumple knew that. They exercised their pretentious "heroes don't kill" dogma on more than one occasion at the expense of their subjects.

And who can forget Neal helping Henry to destroy magic? I can, because it never actually happened!

Edited February 14, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

2 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

And who can forget Neal helping Henry to destroy magic? 

This was so insanely out there, it was practically in a different galaxy. I'm starting to wonder if A&E come up with plots when smoking pot and then falling asleep and dreaming up bizarre scenarios. Maybe that's why they had Henry writing the book in his sleep.