S07.E03: The Queen's Justice

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I also think, Bran,Sansa and Arya decide to keep it from him and just name him Jon Stark and only they and the readers know the truth.

I don't think so.  I do believe he will find out, and in a very dramatic fashion.  I've begun to suspect it will not be through Bran, mostly because I am doubtful Jon returns to WF after leaving Dragonstone. 

[domina89]

14 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

My take is that Jon feels he can't kneel -- if he does, the northern lords will feel betrayed and their unity will be broken.  Some will refuse to submit to the "foreign invader" as queen.  Jon needs the entire north all pulling in the same direction when the White Walkers get there.  His eye is is fixed firmly on the danger from the north.  Tyrion came right out and said "Bend the knee and help us defeat our enemies."  Jon knows he can't afford to be dragged into the fight to the south.  That may come back to bite him later (Sansa certainly thinks the greater risk is to the south) but Jon has seen the Night King and the army of the dead and he's staying focused on that. So becoming a vassal to Dany and running the risk of possibly being ordered to march south with his army, leaving his home undefended is a non-starter for him.

I really like this because, to me, it was a callback to Jon's conversation with Mance Rayder in season 5's "The Wars to Come."  Ironically, Jon is now facing the same situation Mance faced- asking his people to fight in someone else's war.  Jon encouraged Mance to bend the knee and save his people, but Mance replied that he couldn't and if Jon couldn't understand the reasons behind that, there was nothing else to say.  Jon thought Mance was wrong and prideful in his decision, but I think now he is beginning to see that it isn't always so black and white.  There have been so many lessons Jon has absorbed over the years from the various people he has encountered- Ned, LC Mormont, Alliser Thorne, Maester Aemon, Qhorin Halfhand, Mance Rayder, Stannis Baratheon, etc., and it is interesting to me to observe how he actually applies the lessons he has learned and grows as a leader.

[GrailKing]

Bottom photo.

oops  for: Tyro49.

 

https://www.bustle.com/articles/85163-sansa-starks-fashion-evolution-through-game-of-thrones-and-how-her-wardrobe-mirrors-her-character

Edited August 1, 2017 by GrailKing

[Blonde Gator]

7 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

I'm sure she'll rule brilliantly. How well that would make sense for the story or how much other characters will suffer to make Sansa look brilliant is what I'm not sure of. And like @anamika pointed out so well, it's not the first time that this Royce was made to look like an idiot for Sansa's sake.

I'm not sure Royce has been made to look like an idiot for Sansa's sake.  Bronze Yohn merely expressed the status quo for houses who have failed to support (or outright betrayed) their Leige Lords.  And I'm not sure the writers are attempting to portray Sansa as some sort of genius leader, either.  It's probably somewhere in the middle, and actually the writers are taking the easy way out where they can.  As the 3ER said, "the ink is dry", and as fans, we have to accept that applies to character development (or lack thereof) as well.

Unfortunately, with the necessary time compression from here on out, we are not going to get much in the way of character building, which is to the detriment of both the shippers & the haters!  We now have pretty much the final iteration of our characters.  We won't get any more arcs for a character, like the Hound....with a good ten minutes spent for putting him his final frame of mind after suddenly being able to "see" the future in the flames, cementing his new purpose in his life, and his redemption.  Another example, Bran went to Spock in two scenes, without explanation.   I expect the only significant time spent on any character development will be left for the major players, Jon, Cersei, Jamie (mostly him), Dany, and Tyrion.   Very little time will be spent on lesser characters, Sansa, Bran, Arya, and on fan favorites like Brienne, Tormund, Bronn...but those characters' motivations have already been carved in stone. 

[GrailKing]

19 hours ago, Tyro49 said:

Bran spoke of Sansa's "white wedding dress"; I could be wrong, but didn't she wear a gold dress at her Bolton wedding? Is Bran seeing the future?

https://www.bustle.com/articles/85163-sansa-starks-fashion-evolution-through-game-of-thrones-and-how-her-wardrobe-mirrors-her-character 

Bottom photo.

[anamika]

6 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

I'm not sure Royce has been made to look like an idiot for Sansa's sake.  Bronze Yohn merely expressed the status quo for houses who have failed to support (or outright betrayed) their Leige Lords. 

So you are saying that an experienced battle commander would think that tearing down the first line of defense is the best solution to punishing houses that betrayed them? And it required Sansa to explain to him the importance of those castles in preparing for an invasion from the North? Royce should hang his head in shame and go off to military camp and get educated.

Edited August 1, 2017 by anamika

[Blonde Gator]

11 minutes ago, domina89 said:

I really like this because, to me, it was a callback to Jon's conversation with Mance Rayder in season 5's "The Wars to Come."  Ironically, Jon is now facing the same situation Mance faced- asking his people to fight in someone else's war.  Jon encouraged Mance to bend the knee and save his people, but Mance replied that he couldn't and if Jon couldn't understand the reasons behind that, there was nothing else to say.  Jon thought Mance was wrong and prideful in his decision, but I think now he is beginning to see that it isn't always so black and white.  There have been so many lessons Jon has absorbed over the years from the various people he has encountered- Ned, LC Mormont, Alliser Thorne, Maester Aemon, Qhorin Halfhand, Mance Rayder, Stannis Baratheon, etc., and it is interesting to me to observe how he actually applies the lessons he has learned and grows as a leader.

Speaking of lessons learned, I really liked the callback to Robb's victory over Jaime.  Jaime admitted as much to Olenna in her death scene.  Jaime learned from Robb to let the obvious target, not easily defended, be the sacrificial lamb, while throwing all of one's forces against the REAL goal.  Smart.

[Blonde Gator]

2 minutes ago, anamika said:

So you are saying that an experienced battle commander would think that tearing down the first line of defense is the best solution to punishing houses that betrayed them? And it required Sansa to explain to him the importance of those castles in preparing for an invasion from the North?

No, I said exactly what I said.  Bronze Yohn was espousing the "old way" of doing things.  "You betray your house, your entire house and your castle gets destroyed.  End of story."  Furthermore, Sansa was NOT advocating for using Karhold and The Last Hearth as defensible barriers against the WW's in the War to Come.  She was advocating using them as scooby snacks to the lesser houses who supported House Stark in the retaking of Wintefell.  Not the same thing at all in a strategic sense.  Jon was the one who was pushing for preparedness, and ensuring steadfast loyalty from the Karstarks and the Umbers for the War to Come.

And Bronze Yohn is not an experienced battle commander.  He was a rather successful tournament knight.  Vast difference.  Remember, the Vale passed on the War of Five Kings. 

[Tikichick]

We've seen on screen Jon and Sansa both reminiscing and making light of Ned's endless pronouncements and warnings of Winter is Coming.  Winterfell was a very insulated environment with little to no real social goings on outside of fellow northerners.  The residents of WF were used to being very intimately involved with each other day to day.  It's not like Sansa didn't see, hear and absorb much of the doings of her father and brothers, as well as her father serving as lord of his home and forces, and liege lord to his bannermen.  She couldn't help but do so, despite her keen disinterest and desperation to escape the cold and deadly dullness for someplace infinitely more interesting -- preferably KL.  

Why would it be so strange that passing through the keep, observing the preparations being made that she would walk past the armorer, note the progress, begin to walk on and suddenly have a flash of Ned droning on and on come flooding back to her and be able to point out the deficiency?  

It doesn't have to be indicative of her being a brilliant mastermind.  It doesn't have to be fanwanking, propping or her status as prize pet character by writers or producers.  It happens all of the time for expediency or time that bits and pieces of logistics of the plot are pushed into character storylines a bit awkwardly to keep the bigger picture chugging along.  In books those kinds of things are often easier to accept because the author can allow the reader to peek directly into the mind and thoughts of the character to connect the dots. 

No need for those who will be satisfied with nothing but Sansa's stupid, stupid head on a spike to rush for a call to arms in response.  Your dislike of the character is completely and unmistakably clear.  No need to attempt to further pound it into my head.

[arjumand]

3 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

There was no wool. There was no lining in the armour. And the way the way the conversation went, Sansa was reminding the Master of Arms that the armour needed leather when the "real Winter set in." He didn't say "oh, we only keep leather for the Lords but there's wool for the foot soldiers" or "that's what the wool is for". He went "Oh, yeah, that's a great idea, Lady Sansa! I'll get to it."

It had never even occurred to this seasoned Master of Arms to line the armour at all.

It's nice to show Sansa trying to do her best but when they need to make everyone else stupid to prop her up, it's ridiculous story-telling and personally, it threw me out of that scene completely. 

Actually, this is the way the conversation went (just went back to watch it):

 

Sansa: "Are they covering those breastplates in leather?"

Royce: "No! My lady." (to me, the tone of Royce's voice and the expression on his face both show annoyance and surprise that this isn't happening)

Sansa: turns to Royce: "Shouldn't they be? Once the real cold comes . . . "

Royce: "They should indeed. Pardon me, my lady . . . " walks towards the blacksmith, says "You there . . ." and then Sansa and LF walk out of earshot.

 

What I saw - and I've watched the scene 4 times to transcribe the dialogue and get the expressions right - was that Lord Royce knew all about the leather, and he was pretty pissed off that his blacksmiths (because I've only seen the Knights of the Vale wear plate armor) weren't doing it, and were making him and his men look bad in front of Lady Stark. I saw no arrogance in Sansa's attitude - in fact she seemed to me to be massaging Royce's ego, saying everything in the form of a question, not a demand, because they weren't her men.

The episode as a whole:

It's made me turn against Jaime . . . completely. He just pissed me off so much, that I was happy Lady Olenna delivered a couple of burns on the way out ("You must be very wise," was my favourite). Why did he make me so angry? It was the way he was so smug about talking Cersei out of torturing Lady Olenna. He was just patting himself on the back for his magnanimity in not torturing or killing painfully an old woman who's lost everything and everyone. So I relished his pain when Olenna told him about Joffrey. And I don't want him to be redeemed. Fuck you, Jaime. If Barristan Selmy were still around, he'd be tearing Jaime's page out of the White Book and setting it on fire. 

Remember your vows as an anointed knight?

“In the name of the Warrior I charge you to be brave. In the name of the Father I charge you to be just. In the name of the Mother I charge you to defend the young and innocent. In the name of the Maid I charge you to protect all women . . . "

Nah, I didn't think so. Tosser.

[tennisgurl]

Can I just say, I loved the look on Varys face when Melisandre dropped her "I will die in this foreign land, just like you will" line as she walked off. He looked legitimately freaked out, it was kind of hilarious. Not that I want Varys to die or anything, and I do generally root for him, but it was nice to see someone break through his cryptic smiles and get the last word. Melisandre really knows how to close a scene, doesn't she?

I'm sure that this will all work out in Jon's favor eventually, but Sansa and the Lords weren't exactly wrong about the northern lords going south getting screwed over. Dany did act rather hostile towards him immediately, and basically held him and his men prisoner on her island, taking their weapons and their way off the island the second they set foot on Dragonstone. However, if this is a screw up on anyone's part, its Dany. She jumped so quickly into her "I am the Queen you must bend the knee" speeches, that she forgot to give Jon a real reason to want to ally with her. This isn't just some guy she can push around, its the leader of one of the largest whelms in Westeros, with a significant army behind him, and one of the last members of one of the most ancient houses in Westeros. She could at least start with a more diplomatic tone. Even from the start, she had the Dothraki greeting them at the beach, and had them take their weapons and boats, even though she knows the (deserved) reputation the Dothraki have with the Westerosi. Asking them to surrender their weapons is reasonable enough, but it comes off as needlessly threatening to a powerful potential ally on a diplomatic mission. Dany needs allies, and she needs to be willing to meet Jon as more of an equal, not as a traitor. Apologizing for what her father did to her family and asking not to be judged for his crimes was a good start, and she at least allowed him to mine for Dragonstone, but her diplomatic skills need some serious work. Granted, Jon could have started off by asking for Dragonstone in the first place, but at least he was trying to be diplomatic, and maybe he would have gotten to it sooner if he hadn't felt attacked so early on.

You know, I'm sure this wont actually happen, but this could easily lead to HUGE problems for Dany if word gets to the north that Dany and her people have taken Jon and his people prisoner on her island. Sansa and the northern lords (but the Vale lords) could easily see it as another southern leader threatening their leader (who is also their Lady's brother), and they are already very understandably sensitive towards this exact issue (after what happened to Sansa grandfather and uncle, not to mention her parents and Rob), and if they thought that the Mad Kings Mad Daughter was going to burn their king, they might just decide to declare war Dany as well, or at least will end any possible diplomatic contact with her. Sansa has been itching to go to war with Cersei, so would new, more hardcore Sansa strongly consider war with this new Mad Queen threatening one of the last members of her family? Granted, that would all be a horrible mess of a decision and I in no way see this happening, but Dany and her people don't know that! She has to know that the north will be super sensitive to a Targaryen leader holding their Stark leader against his will.

[Hana Chan]

1 minute ago, Tikichick said:

 

Why would it be so strange that passing through the keep, observing the preparations being made that she would walk past the armorer, note the progress, begin to walk on and suddenly have a flash of Ned droning on and on come flooding back to her and be able to point out the deficiency?  

The problem is that Sansa never showed any interest at all in stuff like arms and armor. If we were talking about Arya, that would be another story. I could easily see her hanging around the smithy until her nursemaid came to fetch her back to her lessons. Sansa was focused on the proper things for a woman to learn (we saw her very focused on her embroidery). But weapons? That was for men and not at all something that a proper lady should focus on.

So it's possible that she might have, on rare occasion, seen something having to do with armor construction. But it's not something that we ever saw on the show. I just can't buy that she would have no practical experience in the construction or wearing of armor, but would just have picked up on a very specific need in modifying armor for winter wear by osmosis. 

[Tikichick]

Just now, Hana Chan said:

The problem is that Sansa never showed any interest at all in stuff like arms and armor. If we were talking about Arya, that would be another story. I could easily see her hanging around the smithy until her nursemaid came to fetch her back to her lessons. Sansa was focused on the proper things for a woman to learn (we saw her very focused on her embroidery). But weapons? That was for men and not at all something that a proper lady should focus on.

So it's possible that she might have, on rare occasion, seen something having to do with armor construction. But it's not something that we ever saw on the show. I just can't buy that she would have no practical experience in the construction or wearing of armor, but would just have picked up on a very specific need in modifying armor for winter wear by osmosis. 

I agree, logically much more Arya's wheelhouse.  I'm not suggesting Sansa knew it because she was interested or paid attention -- or osmosis.  I'm suggesting it was part of what she considered father's ridiculous blathering on, and on, and on about that she likely heard mentioned a time or ten by Ned when she was stuck in frigid, backwater Winterfell, dreaming of the day when she'd live in an exciting glittering world of courtly life, with real lords and ladies who aren't going on endlessly about winter coming.  Who cares, girl wants to move south and truly experience what it is to live in one of the longest summers of recent history.

It was probably some of Ned's endless blatherings she rolled her eyes at a time or twelve.  No one here has ever had a childhood memory they weren't attempting to recall come suddenly flooding back because of some reminder?

[taanja]

On 7/30/2017 at 9:40 PM, britesongs said:

Speaking of Dragonstone, that first meeting was a bit underwhelming. I am so tired of the whole litany of titles Dany must have announced. We get it, you're important. Her and Jon's respective introductions really highlighted their views and priorities. She's concerned with being imposing and taking the IT, and Jon just wants to save the North (and the rest of the kingdom) from impending doom.

 

 

I guess this doesn't bother me. In this world it has been shown over and over that titles are VERY important. The more titles--- the more important the person.

And really -- I found that scene amusing. Dany has all these names...and Jon? Oh yeah! He's king of the north. Haha! I laughed.

[Miss Dee]

I just want to point out that for those who are interested in debating the (de)merits of Sansa vs. other characters, our considerate mods have now created a book-friendly "Sansa vs. ?" thread where everyone is welcome to debate this ad infinitum. Thank you, mods.

[Chairman Meow]

Did anyone else see that scene with the dead horse?  I couldn't belive the way they were beating on it!

I am ready for Cersei to get her just deserts... I hate her so much that it has started affecting my feelings towards Lena Heady in other roles.. but even more than Cersei...I really want tosee Qyburn die a painful horrible death.  He just comes across to me as an utter sadist who really enjoys cooking up new instruments of torture...his glee in some of his scenes makes my skin crawl.  I felt very stabby towards him in this episode.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Chairman Meow
stupid autocorrect

[domina89]

24 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Even from the start, she had the Dothraki greeting them at the beach, and had them take their weapons and boats, even though she knows the (deserved) reputation the Dothraki have with the Westerosi. Asking them to surrender their weapons is reasonable enough, but it comes off as needlessly threatening to a powerful potential ally on a diplomatic mission.

I think this actually worked in Jon's favor, though.  Without his weapons, he is not perceived to be as threatening, and therefore he is free to roam the island and have intimate conversations with the mother of dragons. If they have more of these interactions, they can hopefully start fostering a more diplomatic and friendly relationship with each other.  That's difficult to do when there are guards all around.

[Blonde Gator]

26 minutes ago, anamika said:

Which makes him an utterly unfit military man - which is my point that you seem to be not grasping. Sansa had to school the general of the Vale army on why those castles were important - she tells him that they need every fortress for the war to come. And this is after Jon mentions how they are the first line of defense. So general Royce's solution is to destroy the first line of defense to punish the houses and Sansa Stark has to explain to him why this is a bad military solution! Are you still not getting why this makes Royce look like an incompetant fool?

He is still the general of the Vale army, he leads them (in the books he wanted to lead their army against the Lannisters) and he's been around for ages. But yeah, Sansa Stark knows more than him about the importance of fortresses because he's a tourney knight. Jesus! Now, I have heard it all...I give up.

Again, you are reading into my words that which I did not say.  I'm not "grasping your point", because it's an erroneous one.  Sansa didn't "school the general of the Vale Army", she was pushing her own agenda to reward families and gather power for herself by doling out favors.  Royce suggested taking the traditional action for a family who betrayed their overlord.  Period. 

How, exactly, does being a traditionalist make him an "incompetent fool"?  The fact remains that he DIDN'T lead the Vale army against the Lannisters, as the Vale remained staunchly as neutral as Switzerland during the War of the Five Kings.  Bronze Yohn is not an experienced battle commander, a la Randyll Tarley or Stannis Baratheon.  Sorry.  That is the truth of it.  He merely voiced the tradional opinion, one time, unlike Sansa, who pushed her own agenda three times. 

EPISODE 1:  Jon in the great hall.  We need dragonglass.  Everyone will learn to fight.  Little Bear makes the point that she's not going to stand by and knit, when Glover says "my grandaughter will fight?"  Jon appoints Tormund & wildlings to defend East Watch. 

Jon:  If they breach the wall, the first two castles in their path are Last Hearth and Karhold.

Royce:  The Umbers and the Karstarks betrayed the North.  Their castles should be torn down, with not a stone left standing.

Sansa:  The Castles committed no crimes.  We need every castle we have.  We should give Karhold and the Last Hearth to new families.  Families who supported us against Ramsay.

Jon:  The Umbers and the Karstarks have fought besides the Starks for centuries.  They've kept faith for generation after generation.

Sansa:  And then they broke faith (Littlefinger smirks in the back of the room).

Jon:  I'm not going to strip these families of their ancestral homes just because of the crimes of a few reckless sons.

Sansa:  So there's no punishment for treason and no reward for loyalty?

Jon goes on to explain that the punishment for treason is death, and both Karstark and Umber died on the field of battle.  Sansa again insists that Jon give the castles to loyal families.  (More LF smirking).  Jon gives his speech about being a leader in the night's watch, "men who pass the sentence swing the sword".  He will not pass sentence on children of transgressors.  Calls the heirs up, and makes them swear fealty.  Sansa & Jon proceed outside and have the conversation about Sansa undermining Jon's authority.

I too, am finished with laying out the facts of the situation.  It is what it is. 

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, Chairman Meow said:

Did anyone else see that scene with technology dead horse?  I couldn't belive the way the were beating on it!

I am ready for Cersei to get her just deserts... I hate her so much that it has started affecting my feelings towards Lena Heady in other roles.. but even more than Cersei...I really want tosee Qyburn die a painful horrible death.  He just comes across to me as an utter sadist who really enjoys cooking up new instruments of torture...his glee in some of his scenes makes my skin crawl.  I felt very stabby towards him in this episode.

Waiting for this season to begin I contemplated how much story Cersei could possibly have left.  I anticipated Jamie walking away in disgust and much more backlash from the citizen's of KL and Westeros.  Then the victories started rolling in and my eyebrows went up higher and higher.  Ironically this week's overwhelming victories finally made me see that when her end comes it will be crushing.

I'm with you on Qyburn.  His end must be spectacular.

[Oscirus]

2 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I'm with you on Qyburn.  His end must be spectacular.

Qyburn's end will be due to a faild wild fire experiment. It will be painful.

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Qyburn's end will be due to a faild wild fire experiment. It will be painful.

Interesting idea.  I was leaning more toward the Mountain coming to Mohamed idea.

[ElizaD]

1 hour ago, arjumand said:

It's made me turn against Jaime . . . completely. He just pissed me off so much, that I was happy Lady Olenna delivered a couple of burns on the way out ("You must be very wise," was my favourite). Why did he make me so angry? It was the way he was so smug about talking Cersei out of torturing Lady Olenna. He was just patting himself on the back for his magnanimity in not torturing or killing painfully an old woman who's lost everything and everyone. So I relished his pain when Olenna told him about Joffrey. And I don't want him to be redeemed. Fuck you, Jaime. If Barristan Selmy were still around, he'd be tearing Jaime's page out of the White Book and setting it on fire. 

I actually found Jaime hilariously in character here even though a lot of readers think he's suffering from character assassination. This is the same guy who was 100% pleased with himself for keeping his oath to Catelyn because he didn't take up arms against House Tully and instead got them to surrender Riverrun to Cat's murderers by threatening to have Edmure's baby trebucheted to death. It's his Goldenhand the Just delusion, celebrating his newfound honor without stopping to think about whether those he's punishing are actually guilty, what role he played in bringing war to the Riverlands, and how he's bringing peace by going around rewarding the Freys for the most dishonorable act imaginable. Even the supposedly redeemed Book Jaime is more about appearances and achieving a personal sense of satisfaction than about actual remorse and acknowledgement of the suffering he has caused to others. On the show, he's remained Cersei's accomplice instead of turning against her because of her infidelity; in the books, he rejected Cersei but not the Lannister regime they both support.

[Unknown poster]

They could have avoided a lot of this Euron teleportation nonsense by simply having the Lannister fleet  attack the ships at Casterly Rock. Or are we to assume Tywin never  bothered to rebuild his navy  after all  this time.?

[TaurusRose]

5 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

My fanwank is that the timelines for the different stories are also different. Jon got to Dragonstone, and that trip might have taken 3 weeks, and while he was traveling there, Bran and Meera arrived in Winterfell. The timeline merges when different characters are sharing scenes. This drives me less crazy. 

Works for me. ?

[Blonde Gator]

34 minutes ago, Unknown poster said:

They could have avoided a lot of this Euron teleportation nonsense by simply having the Lannister fleet  attack the ships at Casterly Rock. Or are we to assume Tywin never  bothered to rebuild his navy  after all  this time.?

It's not been mentioned on the show, but bCersei did rebuild a fleet when Tommen was king.  She gave command of the fleet to Aurane Waters, a Rhaegar doppelganger, the bastard son of House Velaryon.  Who promptly hauled ass, taking the ships with him.  Yet another indication that bCersei is not nearly as clever or resourceful as sCersei, and making Euron's participation all the more necessary on the show.

Oh, an observation about Euron's fleet.  HIS boat, The Silence, is huge in comparison to all the other boats in either his fleet, or the "old" Ironborn fleet.  I think that sort of proves the teleporter was in use in Episode 3, as the gigantic black ship was in the harbor lobbing fireballs at Grey Worm atop Casterly Rock.

[Tikichick]

4 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

It's not been mentioned on the show, but bCersei did rebuild a fleet when Tommen was king.  She gave command of the fleet to Aurane Waters, a Rhaegar doppelganger, the bastard son of House Velaryon.  Who promptly hauled ass, taking the ships with him.  Yet another indication that bCersei is not nearly as clever or resourceful as sCersei, and making Euron's participation all the more necessary on the show.

Oh, an observation about Euron's fleet.  HIS boat, The Silence, is huge in comparison to all the other boats in either his fleet, or the "old" Ironborn fleet.  I think that sort of proves the teleporter was in use in Episode 3, as the gigantic black ship was in the harbor lobbing fireballs at Grey Worm atop Casterly Rock.

I was reading along and thought you were going somewhere very different with the bolded.

[stagmania]

17 hours ago, screamin said:

I'm wondering just what it's going to be like for poor Sansa when Arya comes back next week, if she's sporting the same weird, flat indifferent affect she had through her scene with Hot Pie. With Bran acting weirdly flat and creepy AND Arya acting weirdly flat and creepy, Sansa will probably be sending ravens begging Jon to return ASAP...at least HE doesn't let the fact that he died and returned from the dead keep him from smiling now and then.

This is really interesting to think about. All of the Starks have been through traumas, but they've responded so differently. Jon is still Jon, and you'd hardly know he's a zombie. Sansa is less trusting and far more cynical, but she's managed to stay tethered to the person she was before and still cares about many of the same things. Arya has turned herself into a killer, flattened her empathy and is barely hanging on to who she was. Bran is gone for good. What does their relative ability to maintain their core selves say about each of them?

15 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Word, though, looking back, I wonder if at times Ned pitied Jon more than he loved him.

I definitely believe Ned loved Jon, but there was a distance there. Part of that may have been the cover story-he said Jon was a bastard, which caused a schism with his wife, which reverberated through family dynamics. But I wonder if it was also because he didn't know what to make of Jon, who is a Targaryen and the product of his sister's betrayal. Lyanna (presumably) chose to run away with Rhaegar and thus started a war, and Jon is the reminder of that choice that brought about so much suffering. Ned had to carry that secret for the rest of his life and Jon was the ultimate representation of that burden. It may account for some weariness or hesitation in their relationship.

3 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

I suspect Tyrion let her down here as well.  He created unrealistic expectations, on both sides.  He failed to tell Jon that Dany expected a bended knee, and he failed to explain to Dany his impressions of Jon as a good guy, and how NOT to handle him by demanding what she wanted....rather to view their first meeting as an introduction, hopefully leading to a negotiation. 

Yes, Tyrion is proving to be an awful hand. The problem is that I don't think the show is trying to make him an awful hand-the writing is just really sloppy. At this point I'd welcome a reveal that he's low key sabotaging her for his family, just so his choices would make more sense.

1 hour ago, Miss Dee said:

I just want to point out that for those who are interested in debating the (de)merits of Sansa vs. other characters, our considerate mods have now created a book-friendly "Sansa vs. ?" thread where everyone is welcome to debate this ad infinitum. Thank you, mods.

Yes, thank you. Show Sansa is a very inconsistently written character, and therefore one can find plenty of evidence to support any given claim about her, and the endless arguments are so tiresome. Those who take pleasure in never-ending circular debates, please take it there and leave the other threads in peace.

Edited August 1, 2017 by stagmania

[Oscirus]

Tyrion's job  was to  get jon to come. If Tyrion sent a letter  saying "come bend the knee for dany,"  Jon definitely wouldn't have come.

[stagmania]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Tyrion's job  was to  get jon to come. If Tyrion sent a letter  saying "come bend the knee for dany,"  Jon definitely wouldn't have come.

If that was the case, Tyrion should have informed his queen of how he got him to come and warned her that Jon wouldn't be expecting to bend the knee.

[Unknown poster]

12 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

It's not been mentioned on the show, but bCersei did rebuild a fleet when Tommen was king.  She gave command of the fleet to Aurane Waters, a Rhaegar doppelganger, the bastard son of House Velaryon.  Who promptly hauled ass, taking the ships with him.  Yet another indication that bCersei is not nearly as clever or resourceful as sCersei, and making Euron's participation all the more necessary on the show.

Oh, an observation about Euron's fleet.  HIS boat, The Silence, is huge in comparison to all the other boats in either his fleet, or the "old" Ironborn fleet.  I think that sort of proves the teleporter was in use in Episode 3, as the gigantic black ship was in the harbor lobbing fireballs at Grey Worm atop Casterly Rock.

Oh, I know the Lannisters have a navy in in the books. But in the show, they get no mention beyond "Euron torched them  like 15 years ago. " Just seems like an obvious mistake that they are being omitted. 

[Tikichick]

Just now, stagmania said:

If that was the case, Tyrion should have informed his queen of how he got him to come and warned her that Jon wouldn't be expecting to bend the knee.

Or explained the situation before he sent the raven.

[screamin]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

So you are saying that an experienced battle commander would think that tearing down the first line of defense is the best solution to punishing houses that betrayed them? And it required Sansa to explain to him the importance of those castles in preparing for an invasion from the North? Royce should hang his head in shame and go off to military camp and get educated.

Remember the ruins of Castamere...Royce is understandably thinking like a rich Southerner (like Tywin, who was no fool) who can afford to make such extravagant gestures as a warning to other rebel lords. I don't think Sansa's objection that it would be wasteful was intended to mark her as brilliant, merely sensible (which is, I think, about where her IQ lies). I don't think the scene was intended to puff her as a genius, especially since the shortcomings of her own proposal were pointed out. It goes well with her conscientiousness (or nitpicking, if you like) shown regarding counting food supplies and noticing armor.

Blonde Gator, Royce is still in WF because he's LF's subordinate in charge of the Vale troops, who are presumably still there because Jon and Sansa need the reinforcements and LF wants them as leverage.

[Oscirus]

4 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Or explained the situation before he sent the raven.

Should be common sense that demanding strangers bow to you isn't a good way to get them to come to you.

[Francie]

12 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Yes, Tyrion is proving to be an awful hand. The problem is that I don't think the show is trying to make him an awful hand-the writing is just really sloppy. At this point I'd welcome a reveal that he's low key sabotaging her for his family, just so his choices would make more sense.

It's been easy for me to fanwank that Tyrion's judgment is clouded by two things:

1) wanting Daenerys to be seen as a benevolent ruler, at least partly because he knows how much the people hated him, unfairly, when he was Hand to Joffrey, and 

2) getting caught up in personal payback to his father. The one thing Tyrion ever asked of his father was Casterly Rock. Like Daenerys sees Westeros as her birthright, Tyrion saw Casterly Rock as his (with Jaime in the Kingsguard). His father wouldn't give it to him, and here he is, taking it. I don't think Tyrion admits to himself that this was his true motivation. It worked on paper as a plan, etc. But, it did influence him so greatly that he didn't see the situation clearly. 

[tennisgurl]

Tyrion definitely made the summons sound a lot nicer than how Dany put it, because he knew that Jon would be more likely to come if he got a letter asking for an alliance, not fealty to a ruler he doesn't even know. I wonder if he didn't tell Dany how he phrased the letter because she would be pissed off that he didn't quote her directly. It actually reminds me a bit of when Dany was buying the Unsullied from the asshole slave auctioneer, and Missandei was trying to be more polite in her translations of his insults in an attempt to be more diplomatic to a potential costumer/ally.

Edited August 1, 2017 by tennisgurl

[stagmania]

@Francie I really like that explanation about Tyrion being hung up on his Tywin issues without realizing it. I just hope the show will acknowledge that he's making bad decisions at some point, because right now it just seems like a character sacrifice to make Cersei unbeatable and Dany an underdog.

[Blonde Gator]

27 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I was reading along and thought you were going somewhere very different with the bolded.

Sorry, 9 year old grandson is here, distractions galore.  You're right, that was a badly written post, apologies. 

[Tikichick]

8 minutes ago, Francie said:

It's been easy for me to fanwank that Tyrion's judgment is clouded by two things:

1) wanting Daenerys to be seen as a benevolent ruler, at least partly because he knows how much the people hated him, unfairly, when he was Hand to Joffrey, and 

2) getting caught up in personal payback to his father. The one thing Tyrion ever asked of his father was Casterly Rock. Like Daenerys sees Westeros as her birthright, Tyrion saw Casterly Rock as his (with Jaime in the Kingsguard). His father wouldn't give it to him, and here he is, taking it. I don't think Tyrion admits to himself that this was his true motivation. It worked on paper as a plan, etc. But, it did influence him so greatly that he didn't see the situation clearly. 

It's logical that Tyrion would feel that way.  But if it turns out to be the truth it's curious he wasn't called out on it beforehand.

[TaurusRose]

4 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

But yeah, this is a TV show and we need extra drama and extra stress and tables to flip.

LOL Liked your entire post, but this gets you your very own Valyerian sword.

[YaddaYadda]

36 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

It's not been mentioned on the show, but bCersei did rebuild a fleet when Tommen was king.  She gave command of the fleet to Aurane Waters, a Rhaegar doppelganger, the bastard son of House Velaryon.  Who promptly hauled ass, taking the ships with him.  Yet another indication that bCersei is not nearly as clever or resourceful as sCersei, and making Euron's participation all the more necessary on the show.

This will never not make me laugh. Aurane for the win!

[Tikichick]

4 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Sorry, 9 year old grandson is here, distractions galore.  You're right, that was a badly written post, apologies. 

Not badly written at all.  I simply thought the bolded was leading another, more stereotypical direction, when discussing men and their large vehicles . . . 

[FnkyChkn34]

7 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

My fanwank is that the timelines for the different stories are also different. Jon got to Dragonstone, and that trip might have taken 3 weeks, and while he was traveling there, Bran and Meera arrived in Winterfell. The timeline merges when different characters are sharing scenes. This drives me less crazy. 

I thought of this as well, and it also works for me.  I guess I just don't care as much about timelines as other people, either. ;-)

[screamin]

I always thought book Jaime was kind of petty for forgiving Cersei, excusing, aiding and abetting her vilest impulses, but breaking with her mostly over her infidelities with Kettleblack and Lancel and her diminishing interest in him. To me show Jaime is following book Jaime pretty closely in staying faithful to her as long as she still wants him and brushing aside all her faults...making excuses for and deluding himself that she'll build a better world when she's only interested in destruction. IMO Jaime can only be redeemed if he breaks with her for a GOOD reason, not just because she slept with someone else.

[Oscirus]

2 minutes ago, screamin said:

I always thought book Jaime was kind of petty for forgiving Cersei, excusing, aiding and abetting her vilest impulses, but breaking with her mostly over her infidelities with Kettleblack and Lancel and her diminishing interest in him. To me show Jaime is following book Jaime pretty closely in staying faithful to her as long as she still wants him and brushing aside all her faults...making excuses for and deluding himself that she'll build a better world when she's only interested in destruction. IMO Jaime can only be redeemed if he breaks with her for a GOOD reason, not just because she slept with someone else.

I believe  that Olean na confession  opened up a huge door for jaime that wasn't previously there.

[TaurusRose]

58 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Jon is still Jon, and you'd hardly know he's a zombie.

Inaccurate term.  If Jon is Jon, and he is, how can you call him a zombie? Jon has not given up his agency, personality or soul, if you will.  He is not a mindless, rotting thing forced to do some other's bidding.  He is a living, breathing man favored by forces not totally revealed to us. Jon in no way resembles the reanimated corpses raised by the NK who are zombies.  The word that describes Jon is resurrected.

[Blonde Gator]

12 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Not badly written at all.  I simply thought the bolded was leading another, more stereotypical direction, when discussing men and their large vehicles . . . 

Well, that shoe does fit (and we know Euron's fond of his big cock)!

[Tikichick]

11 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I believe  that Olean na confession  opened up a huge door for jaime that wasn't previously there.

At this point I can't see what would move onscreen Jamie to break with her after he saw the sept drove Tommen out the window and she simply stepped over his corpse to put the crown on her head and kept on with business.  I've always felt it would happen, but I really wonder what is his breaking point this far down the road?

I simply cannot wrap my brain around the fact that the man who experienced his first real fatherly moment of joy bringing Myrcella home, only to have it ripped cruelly away from him moments later, could have shrugged off what happened with Tommen and Cersei's part in it. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Tikichick
Typo

[Pogojoco]

The only timing thing about the episode that gave me pause was Euron's ability to get to Casterly Rock when he was so recently in King's Landing and out in the Narrow Sea/Black Water Bay to attack Yara. The writers/showrunners might be trusting the average viewer doesn't really know the map of Westeros that well. 

The  Rock and KL are roughly the same latitude-  but KL is very East and the Rock is very West. To take a ship there, you have to sail all the way South, past Dorne and then North again. It would be faster to take the Gold Road through Westeros by land. And yes, the Unsullied sailed that way, but they had a head start and also, weren't giving gifts to Cersei in King's Landing. 

And yes, it could be argued that Euron split his fleet, but how many ships does this guy have?

[MrsR]

About the teleportation issue, since this is the book thread I'll post it here:

 

Excerpt from 'A Storm of Swords':

"A Song of Ice and Fire is told through the eyes of characters who are sometimes hundreds or even thousands of miles apart from one another. Some chapters cover a day, some only an hour; others might span a fortnight, a month, half a year. With such a structure, the narrative cannot be strictly sequential; sometimes important things are happening simultaneously, a thousand leagues apart."

[Blonde Gator]

2 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

The only timing thing about the episode that gave me pause was Euron's ability to get to Casterly Rock when he was so recently in King's Landing and out in the Narrow Sea/Black Water Bay to attack Yara. The writers/showrunners might be trusting the average viewer doesn't really know the map of Westeros that well. 

The  Rock and KL are roughly the same latitude-  but KL is very East and the Rock is very West. To take a ship there, you have to sail all the way South, past Dorne and then North again. It would be faster to take the Gold Road through Westeros by land. And yes, the Unsullied sailed that way, but they had a head start and also, weren't giving gifts to Cersei in King's Landing. 

And yes, it could be argued that Euron split his fleet, but how many ships does this guy have?

Per his speech at the Kingsmoot (but unsubsantiated as to actual numbers, but we've seen it is LARGE)....a thousand ship.  Coincidentally, the same number of ships Daario told Dany she'd need to transport the Dothraki, Unsullied, and the Storm Crows to Westeros.