S05.E06: Crossbreed

[txhorns79]

Quote

That bothers me as well.  I was born in the late sixties and I grew up hearing that the USSR was the "Evil Empire".  I think that was ingrained in most Americans my age.  If I had found that my parents were in fact Soviet spies, I would have read everything I could about the USSR.

I feel like Paige is terrified of purposefully doing anything that might draw attention to her or her parents at this point.  So, even if she did want to do a lot of research, she might refrain from doing so out of fear.   

Edited April 12, 2017 by txhorns79

[Sighed I]

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Also Philip I am pretty sure your own son (both of them) know nothing of you.  And you know nothing of them.
 

It's funny, isn't it? He's so focused on himself and his own suffering that he can't even see he is doing to his son(s) exactly what was done to him.

3 hours ago, benteen said:

I read Roxann Dawson's IMDB page a while ago.  She's established a really successful and prolific career in TV.  Look it up sometime, there are some truly impressive shows on it.

It's great to see a Star Trek alumnus doing so well outside the franchise. I'm sure there are a lot perks and long-term income opportunities from conventions alone, but it must be difficult to get out from under such an iconic series. So many of them disappear or become bit players, which is a shame because many of the actors are excellent.

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

 It really was. I wonder what was going through his mind. There's a lot of hope and promise packed into that particular stretch of real estate, and I think even a committed communist like Gabriel can't fail to see it.

When your job is to blend seamlessly into the culture you're spying upon, I don't know how it doesn't rub off on you at least to some degree, at least if you're not Claudia. ;) I've always assumed that the handlers haven't been home in decades either, maybe even most of their lives, so I'd think they would be just as susceptible as their charges to the influences of daily living in the States.

The inscription on the memorial says: In this temple, as in the hearts of the people for whom he saved the Union, the memory of Abraham Lincoln is enshrined forever. Is he admiring, however begrudgingly, Lincoln, or perhaps there is a parallel to the sacrifice he and the other illegals are making to save their own Union?

 

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

This is the first episode where Paige didn't have that constipated eyebrow thing going on.

LOL!!!

54 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I really think it was a missed opportunity to not write Paige as being more of a (intelligent) defiant teenager. Like tuning into a documentary about Berlin, with footage of people being shot dead trying to get over the wall, and asking, "Mom, why does our system have to kill people for the crime of trying to leave?" Have her be assigned Solzhenitsyn in her AP literature class, and start peppering her parents with questions (think of how that might have triggered some things within P, about dear ol' dad!). I know there were plenty of children of traditional American anti-communists  who adopted some variant of Marxism to torment their parents, and it would have been interesting to see that mirrored.  

What an excellent idea, and a shame they didn't go this route. The weakest thread in this show for me has been Paige's arc. I don't know if it's the acting, the writing or both, but it feels like a lot of running in place. I liked the final scene where she and Gabriel see each other for the first time, so I'm glad something different is happening to move this part of the narrative forward.

48 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think he was being cruel, he was being honest. He doesn't want Philip to start obsessing over what his father might or might not have done. He was just another person doing what he had to do to survive, like Oleg's mom.

I agree. If anything I think he was trying to ease Philip's mind. Like yes, there's a good chance your father was a monster, but someone had to do that job. We all make sacrifices for the greater good (even if kills the spirit and leaves you a withered husk).

[Erin9]

23 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I feel like Paige is terrified of purposefully doing anything that might draw attention to her or her parents.  So, even if she did want to do a lot of research, she might refrain from doing so out of fear.   

I think so too. This is the girl whose mom just  said she'd get books of a similar type so her one communist book didn't stand out. Paige is trying not to draw attention to anything soviet related, which is smart and what she knows her parents want her to do. 

Regarding Henry and Stan. It's not insignificant that those 2 noted they hadn't seen each other much lately. Which is true-  it's really been since around mid season 4- pre the 7 month vacation they've actually had an on- screen conversation, I think. They're not really close imo. Their relationship lacks the depth that Paige's did with Pastor Tim. It's very surface level, laid back, and expectation free. They're buddies. Henry doesn't idolize Stan. He's just easy to chat with. I also found it interesting that Stan asked Henry about the relationship status of HIS SON and Paige. Clearly, Matthew isn't talking to him. 

It spoke volumes to me that when P&E were upset about Gabriel leaving, he said they had each other. Indeed. They're both tired and burned out- but they are in this together. Their relationship really has continued to get deeper and stronger this season; it's been fascinating to see. It seems to me to be slowly, possibly, turning to "us vs. the world."

I have to think the point of Philip getting this family info, and there is probably more to come, is so he can apply what he's learned. Step 1 seems to be letting Paige meet Gabriel- so she can know her parents better. Henry is a lot tougher since he's still in the dark, but we'll see. I'm starting to wonder that if he found out the truth in the right way, he might take the truth rather well. He'd know they didn't really favor Paige over him, that this hadn't been personal. Not that I see P&E being excited to open that can of worms unless they had to. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by Erin9

[Tetraneutron]

11 hours ago, Bannon said:

I'm not really buying that Paige could be a reliable KGB asset, or that the KGB would trust her. Hell, her parents have been so absentee for her entire life that there isn't any way that she could be seen as having been properly indoctrinated, and then we get to the problematic nature of the pastor and wife knowing that P & E are Soviets.

We'll see where the writers go with it; hopefully they will execute it better than Stan's arc. Nice to see an episode which was heavy on psychology.

Paige would be an amazing asset. That's the point. Imagine someone like her in the CIA or the State Department. She's smart, works hard, is the good girl who obeys authority but is also good at sneaking around and hiding things from people. She sincerely believes in the USSR's ideology. The Center would kill for that. She's actually a lot like Elizabeth, in that she takes responsibility and believes in things.

9 hours ago, SWLinPHX said:

I'm so pissed about Mischa!  All that empathy they reaped from us with his dangerous journey to leave Russia then Yugoslavia and all the money he put up and close calls at the border check -- for nothing. 

I hate Claudia too.  Grrr...

I really doubt this is the end of the Misha storyline. It looks like pretty heavy foreshadowing that Philip is going to break somehow. Murdering the scientist, the repressed memories, lying to his kids . . . also, it continues to interest me that Elizabeth is completely devastated by what she did to YoungHee, her friend of a few months, and doesn't care how she's damaging Paige, her daughter, or that she has no idea what's going on with Henry, her son.

4 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So, I'm just not sure why he's such a big question mark for The Center.  Gabriel said once on the questionable list, you're always there. What? So all of their assets are perfect?  

The point is the Center isn't perfect. They fixate on people and are all about shows of dominance. We've seen get an idea in their heads and run with it many times just this season - assuming the Americans are destroying wheat crops, whatever they're doing to Oleg. It completely fits that Philip has a file that says "loves America, can't be trusted" and that's never going to change.

I also think it's clear, and interesting, what they're doing with Henry. He's the All-American boy. Good with technology. Smart but not especially serious. Cocky, snarky, likes luxury and pop culture and doesn't follow orders. He'd be an amazing asset too, but in a completely different way. He'd also be the most likely to rebel.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I think so too. This is the girl whose mom just  said she'd get books of a similar type so her one communist book didn't stand out. Paige is trying not to draw attention to anything soviet related, which is smart and what she knows her parents want her to do. 

 

But she wouldn't have to call attention to herself. It's 1984. Her school textbooks, the newspaper, news magazines, post-WWII history. This stuff isn't hidden. In fact, Orwell was pretty commonly assigned reading in high school. You want to know if everyone's equal? Some are more equal than others, Paige. Surely she's already studied some of this stuff in school. She even mentioned it in s1. Now it seems she's maybe ready to throw all that out and only ask her mother about this stuff. 

4 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

He's just easy to chat with. I also found it interesting that Stan asked Henry about the relationship status of HIS SON and Paige. Clearly, Matthew isn't talking to him. 

Yes, that little moment is a great reminder that at heart this relationship, while having its own value, is about substitution. Stan's pumping Henry for info on Matthew; Henry's complaining about his parents thinking he's dumb. 

6 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I'm starting to wonder that if he found out the truth in the right way, he might take the truth rather well. He'd know they didn't really favor Paige over him, that this hadn't been personal. Not that I see P&E being excited to open that can of worms unless they had to. 

It's like Paige when all she wanted to know was the truth so she didn't think she was crazy. Both kids would, I think, understand that the parents are putting a lot of trust in them by sharing this secret.

3 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

Paige would be an amazing asset. That's the point. Imagine someone like her in the CIA or the State Department. She's smart, works hard, is the good girl who obeys authority but is also good at sneaking around and hiding things from people.

Except she's NOT good at sneaking around or hiding things from people. Compared to your average 16-year-old she absolutely sucks at this. She hates even the kind of lying that many teenagers do without a thought. 

 

5 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

also, it continues to interest me that Elizabeth is completely devastated by what she did to YoungHee, her friend of a few months, and doesn't care how she's damaging Paige, her daughter, or that she has no idea what's going on with Henry, her son.

I don't think she thinks she's damaging Paige or that she has no idea what's going on with Henry. To her, this stuff is good for Paige and Henry's a teenage boy who doesn't need to be understood on a micro-level by his mom.

6 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

whatever they're doing to Oleg.

I think you mean the CIA here. The Centre isn't really doing anything to Oleg.

[Dev F]

5 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

But were all the scenes of Misha's struggle to reach America necessary to make that particular point?  It felt very flat to me that after all that, Misha would complacently return to Russia, where he's been in danger before and could be again.  If this turns out to be the end of his story, it will not have worked for me.  But I doubt it's the end.

I doubt it's the end, too, but if it is, it would bother me less that they dwelled so much on Mischa's journey and more that they made the final stage of his journey look too easy. If he hadn't been able to just pick up the phone and ask the Centre for his dad, if we'd instead seen him laboring desperately to track Philip down while Claudia and Gabriel struggled just as earnestly to track him down and send him home without alerting his father, then there'd be a stronger sense of how tragic it was that their reunion was averted, and why Gabriel feels so awful for having busted his ass to avert it.

The version we got was just too clean and convenient to feel real and meaningful. But to me, at least, that seems like a problem more with how they set up the storyline than how they ended it.

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, Tetraneutron said:

Paige would be an amazing asset. That's the point. Imagine someone like her in the CIA or the State Department. She's smart, works hard, is the good girl who obeys authority but is also good at sneaking around and hiding things from people. She sincerely believes in the USSR's ideology. The Center would kill for that. She's actually a lot like Elizabeth, in that she takes responsibility and believes in things.

 

A person who wondered if her KGB parents used their real names when running ops is smart? A person who lacks the natural curiosity to pick up, oh, I dunno, "One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich" (which was commonly assigned in American high schools in the era), upon learning that her parents are KGB agents, is smart? I've heard it said on the show that she is smart, but what I've seen on screen is a pretty dull person. 

Elizabeth is the by-product  of a childhood characterized by terror, trauma, and war. Paige has been raised in comfort, and without ideology, until she was a teenager. She isn't like her mother at all, and if she is, that's problematic writing.  

[Erin9]

5 hours ago, stagmania said:

Echoing everyone else that loved this episode. Phillip may be the one whose emotional instability is getting attention and causing alarm, but Elizabeth is having her own little breakdown over in the corner. She's much more contained and subtle about it, but wow. Almost coming out with her feelings to Gabriel, freaking out at the Mary Kay lady, sitting outside Young Hee's house, the look of outright terror on her face when Gabriel warned Phillip. This is basically her version of falling to pieces. If and when a choice has to be made between her work and her family (and I have to assume we're headed there eventually), I think she may surprise us.

I think we're possibly headed for a work vs. family choice too. And I think family will win. That's what this whole show has really been about- P&E's deepening bond, seeing the effects of this life on their family, Elizabeth (and Philip to a lesser extent) becoming more human and less a soldier dedicated to the cause first and last. 

When I look at them now, she would be devastated if she lost Philip. He's her partner in work- and they have always worked exceptionally well together, her husband, father to her kids and the only person she gets to be real with. I don't know if the centre realizes that Elizabeth is unlikely to just accept them destroying Philip. Maybe though. Gabriel notes that they are watching Philip, but also adds that THEY have seen and done too much. 

[Umbelina]

Yeah, I imagine Misha will have to give up everyone that helped him escape, at the very least.

Meanwhile, all the talk of Center not trusting Philip anymore?  It has me almost completely convinced that Stan's girlfriend is KGB after all.  They want to know what Philip may have told his best friend, the FBI guy, among other things.  Obviously Stan could be recruitable, after what happened in Nina, he's susceptible to a honey trap.  I think it's more about Philip though.

[Chaos Theory]

When it comes to Paige defiant teenagers might be more fun to write but for a show winding down not practical.  Also not really in tune with who Paige actually is as a person.  She asks the right questions and wants to do the right thing but she is ultimately a follower.  She would actually be a great asset because she does ultimately follow orders without much resistance.  But she is also smart and intuitive enough to put peices together without prompting.  She is actually an interesting combination of American and Russian.  

Edited April 12, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Elizabeth is the by-product  of a childhood characterized by terror, trauma, and war. Paige has been raised in comfort, and without ideology, until she was a teenager. She isn't like her mother at all, and if she is, that's problematic writing.  

It is interesting how they did this, because with Elizabeth she had so many external factors in her life that explain her fanatical devotion to the cause. With Paige she has none of those external factors, yet she does seem to have been born with a genetic desire for...not sure what to call it. Brainwashing is too extreme. But back in S2 when she explained that the church was something she needed to understand her "crazy life" it seemed like Paige was just desperate for some all-encompassing ideology and authority to follow because life without it was too much. She became very quickly devoted to Pastor Tim, gave him all her money, adopted all his beliefs. (Then in this ep she was also open to Marx and the Mary Kaye woman.) Sure, many teenagers go through phases like this, but Paige seems to really want this sort of thing in itself.

I used to think that one of the things she liked about Pastor Tim was that he was eager to be a male authority figure who told her what to do and had all the answers--unlike her father.

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

When it comes to Paige defiant teenagers might be more fun to write but for a show winding down not practical.  Also not really in tune with who Paige actually is as a person.  She asks the right questions and wants to do the right thing but she is ultimately a follower.  She would actually be a great asset because she does ultimately follow orders without much resistance.  But she is also smart and intuitive enough to put peices together without prompting.  She is actually an interesting combination of American and Russian.  

I simply do not remember seeing much which indicated that Paige is smart, and I remember a lot of writing which kind of painted her as being somewhat dull. 

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It is interesting how they did this, because with Elizabeth she had so many external factors in her life that explain her fanatical devotion to the cause. With Paige she has none of those external factors, yet she does seem to have been born with a genetic desire for...not sure what to call it. Brainwashing is too extreme. But back in S2 when she explained that the church was something she needed to understand her "crazy life" it seemed like Paige was just desperate for some all-encompassing ideology and authority to follow because life without it was too much. She became very quickly devoted to Pastor Tim, gave him all her money, adopted all his beliefs. (Then in this ep she was also open to Marx and the Mary Kaye woman.) Sure, many teenagers go through phases like this, but Paige seems to really want this sort of thing in itself.

I used to think that one of the things she liked about Pastor Tim was that he was eager to be a male authority figure who told her what to do and had all the answers--unlike her father.

Yeah, a genetic predisposition to stronger than normal adherence to belief systems is credible. What isn't is that this teenager, after having strong negative feelings about how her parents were running the household (remember that this is what forced P & E's disclosure, and her religious conversion), would simply fall in line with the Soviet ideology, after not really having been exposed to it by her parents until they made their disclosure. On top of that, the KGB already views P as being potentially unreliable; and now we're supposed to believe that they would trust Paige? Huh? I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense.   

[AGuyToo]

4 hours ago, Trillian said:

As an aside, i thought it was amusing that the Pastor gave Paige Capital to read.  I was about Paige's age when I tried to read it.  I was a pretty bright kid and had been raised as a socialist but I found it dense and nearly incomprehensible and finally gave up.  Give her the Communist Manifesto to read if you want to introduce her to Marxist thought and not bore her to death. Then again, maybe that's why Tim chose it.

I think the edition Pastor Tim gave Paige was this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Capital-Communist-Manifesto-Writings-Library/dp/0394602021

It contains a collection of Marx's writing, including the Communist Manifesto and an abbreviated, simplified version of Das Kapital.

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I don't understand why Stan is approaching random Russian people. Are they looking for a contact inside the Russian Embassy? 

Stan is being assigned low level "cold call" work recruiting anyone who might be willing.  I think Stan is on very thin ice here, has been since Vlad and Nina, and lying to John-Boy.  The FBI writes reports as well.  That's the only reason I think his girlfriend could be part of an internal investigation.  More and more, with all the information in this episode, she seems like KGB though.  Pretty strong information that Center doesn't trust Philip and he needs to be careful.  Thanks Elizabeth for ratting him out, that stuff never leaves your file.

1 hour ago, crgirl412 said:

I wrote about this years ago!  I said that at least they could have The Nation laying around or listen to NPR even.  It really bothers me that P & E are so committed to something that they give their entire lives to it but then don't try to raise their kids with that worldview in any way, shape or form.  That is so unrealistic. 

Were you raised in same time frame as Paige and Henry?  How did your parents raise you as a socialist even if you weren't?   

They had no idea, NONE, that the KGB would want their kids to join the family business.  They were ordered to have kids for one reason, to fit in, to look "normal" like any other American family.  Kids "say the dardest things!"  So of course they wouldn't be preaching socialism when any random comment could draw attention from teachers, or neighbors.

1 hour ago, Gabrielle Tracy said:

That bothers me as well.  I was born in the late sixties and I grew up hearing that the USSR was the "Evil Empire".  I think that was ingrained in most Americans my age.  If I had found that my parents were in fact Soviet spies, I would have read everything I could about the USSR.

Yeah, it's ridiculous.  There is plenty of information out there, and with Reagan's focus on the evil empire, it was everywhere.  There were tons of books, TV shows, news clips of bread lines.  Any normal teenager or person would educate themselves.  It's a failing of the show that Pastor Tim has to give her that first book on it.

25 minutes ago, Bannon said:

A person who wondered if her KGB parents used their real names when running ops is smart? A person who lacks the natural curiosity to pick up, oh, I dunno, "One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich" (which was commonly assigned in American high schools in the era), upon learning that her parents are KGB agents, is smart? I've heard it said on the show that she is smart, but what I've seen on screen is a pretty dull person. 

Elizabeth is the by-product  of a childhood characterized by terror, trauma, and war. Paige has been raised in comfort, and without ideology, until she was a teenager. She isn't like her mother at all, and if she is, that's problematic writing.  

Where Paige is like her mother is in the whole zeal, buy the whole bag, desire to belong to something that gives answers, even if they are pat answers.  For Elizabeth it was the party, for Paige, the church.  They go whole hog, ignoring or pushing aside problematic factors and simply wanting to believe.

[Bannon]

I'll note again that Paige has already blown her parents' Soviet identities to American citizens, and it was just luck that it happened to be to a pastor who was not the type to immediately phone the FBI. When the KGB is looking to bring people in to become valuable assets, I very much doubt that  "Blew covert identities shortly after being entrusted with such information for the 1st time" is a bulletpoint they see as favorable in the dossier.

[SunnyBeBe]

8 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I'll note again that Paige has already blown her parents' Soviet identities to American citizens, and it was just luck that it happened to be to a pastor who was not the type to immediately phone the FBI. When the KGB is looking to bring people in to become valuable assets, I very much doubt that  "Blew covert identities shortly after being entrusted with such information for the 1st time" is a bulletpoint they see as favorable in the dossier.

So true.  Even insisting that Paige be brought in on matters without proper vetting and prep was outrageous, imo.  And then they have the gall to constantly question P? lol  It's laughable, imo.  While I love the show, the Paige reveal and subsequent aftermath is so troubling.  It was a major misstep in the storyline for me and I'm not sure how they are going to make it make sense, because with Paige.....it's just very unfeasible to the point of absurdity. But, of course, WEIRD things do happen when it comes to government matters.....lol...so, who's to say.  

Edited April 12, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[MisterBluxom]

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

"Hey, Mr. Beeman, let's go talk over by the kitchen sink, with the faucet running! My parents think that makes every conversation better! "

Hee. Hee. Giggle.

[sistermagpie]

47 minutes ago, Bannon said:

What isn't is that this teenager, after having strong negative feelings about how her parents were running the household (remember that this is what forced P & E's disclosure, and her religious conversion), would simply fall in line with the Soviet ideology, after not really having been exposed to it by her parents until they made their disclosure

Yes, in this ep again I wondered about Paige's reaction on the religion question. This is somebody who at times seemed presented as being thrilled by God, not just the political activism in Tim's church. Now here she's reading the book that's essentially her mother's Bible and it's saying religion is terrible. Elizabeth asks her what she thinks about it and she just says her baptism was the best feeling of her life. (Not exactly countering the "religion is a drug" idea in Marx, since many would say their first hit of heroin was the best feeling in their life.) But she doesn't address the obvious conflict here. Saying that you felt good at your baptism is kind of vague--felt good why? Because you felt like you were joining a club? Or because it was a spiritual experience with God? If so, that seems relevant here. 

That is, in my experience a Christian would not answer how they felt about this question by saying that they felt good at their baptism, they would say life without God was meaningless or just a lie. It's like she's always helpfully couching her religious experience in terms that parallel Elizabeth's experience. And this is someone who was described as giving herself 100% to the church. Like she's supposed to have thrown herself into it the way Elizabeth does with Soviet ideology, but she never seems less on fire for Christ than when she's talking about the actual spiritual aspect. Which is the subject under discussion there.

And really, even if she's not on fire for Christ, as an American how does she feel about a lack of religious freedom? Like if Elizabeth says this book is the basis for her country's system, it seems natural for Paige to ask what would happen to someone like Pastor Tim the activist Protestant there.

17 minutes ago, Bannon said:

 "Blew covert identities shortly after being entrusted with such information for the 1st time" is a bulletpoint they see as favorable in the dossier.

And that was even when her own life as she knew it was on the line and it was her parents she was turning in. Who would trust her to protect a stranger?

Edited April 12, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So true.  Even insisting that Paige be brought in on matters without proper vetting and prep was outrageous, imo.  And then they have the gall to constantly question P? lol  It's laughable, imo.  While I love the show, the Paige reveal and subsequent aftermath is so troubling.  It was a major misstep in the storyline for me and I'm not sure how they are going to make it make sense, because with Paige.....it's just very unfeasible to the point of absurdity. 

Issues like this frustrate me to no end, because this show has had tremendous acting in Rhys. Russell, Langella, Martindale, Wright (sigh, she is missed) and others, and one of the great premises ever for heavily serialized television drama. I have loved elements of this show, but damnit, somebody needed to dole out some discipline in the writer's meetings.  

[Dev F]

Going back to the question of whether the Mischa storyline was too extensive, pat, and/or abrupt to be really satisfying, it suddenly occurred to me what would've been a much better way to go with the storyline once Mischa arrived in the United States: he gets in touch with Philip's agent Charles Duluth. If I remember correctly, Irina worked with him directly on her mission with Philip in season 1, and his espionage work depends on the fact that he's a high-profile media figure. So Irina would know his real identity and have a reason to point her son to him, and Mischa would plausibly be able to track him down.

That would've made for a much more interesting story, I think, because it adds a level of risk and intrigue that was missing from the version of the story we got. On the one hand, Duluth does know Philip, so there's legitimately a chance that Mischa would be able to meet his father regardless of what the Center wanted. On the other hand, Duluth is a highly placed, hugely sensitive asset who would be utterly ruined if suspicion of Russian involvement fell on him, so there's also a chance that Mischa's meddling could fuck up the Center's shit very badly, so Gabriel and Claudia would have strong motivations to shut the whole thing down.

If we'd gotten a story like that -- a group of long-established characters caught between their friendship with Philip and their loyalty to the Center, with a very real potential of leading to either a family reunion or to complete disaster -- I don't think I would've had a problem if it had ended with Mischa being unceremoniously sent home at the end.

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

Regarding Henry and Stan. It's not insignificant that those 2 noted they hadn't seen each other much lately. Which is true-  it's really been since around mid season 4- pre the 7 month vacation they've actually had an on- screen conversation, I think. They're not really close imo. Their relationship lacks the depth that Paige's did with Pastor Tim. It's very surface level, laid back, and expectation free. They're buddies. Henry doesn't idolize Stan. He's just easy to chat with. I also found it interesting that Stan asked Henry about the relationship status of HIS SON and Paige. Clearly, Matthew isn't talking to him. 

Yeah I think it was clear that Stan was mostly into Paige and Matthew dating because it gave Matthew incentive to spend more time at his house. He seems to want a good relationship with his son, but has no idea how to get it.

1 hour ago, Tetraneutron said:

 . . . also, it continues to interest me that Elizabeth is completely devastated by what she did to YoungHee, her friend of a few months, and doesn't care how she's damaging Paige, her daughter, or that she has no idea what's going on with Henry, her son.

Where do you get the impression that she doesn't care about Paige? Most of her focus in the last few seasons has been on Paige and her ever-changing emotional states. And I agree with Sistermagpie that the Henry stuff is pretty typical when raising a teenage boy, especially in the 80s when parenting was more hands-off.

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

When I look at them now, she would be devastated if she lost Philip. He's her partner in work- and they have always worked exceptionally well together, her husband, father to her kids and the only person she gets to be real with. I don't know if the centre realizes that Elizabeth is unlikely to just accept them destroying Philip. Maybe though. Gabriel notes that they are watching Philip, but also adds that THEY have seen and done too much. 

I wonder about this, too. Does the Centre realize that if they burn Philip, they have to burn Elizabeth along with him? I think Gabriel knows this, but I wonder if his superiors understand.

55 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It is interesting how they did this, because with Elizabeth she had so many external factors in her life that explain her fanatical devotion to the cause. With Paige she has none of those external factors, yet she does seem to have been born with a genetic desire for...not sure what to call it. Brainwashing is too extreme. But back in S2 when she explained that the church was something she needed to understand her "crazy life" it seemed like Paige was just desperate for some all-encompassing ideology and authority to follow because life without it was too much. She became very quickly devoted to Pastor Tim, gave him all her money, adopted all his beliefs. (Then in this ep she was also open to Marx and the Mary Kaye woman.) Sure, many teenagers go through phases like this, but Paige seems to really want this sort of thing in itself.

I thought it was interesting that she singled out her baptism as the best moment of her life. That is a person desperately craving a belief system to cling to.

[kokapetl]

Considering who her parents are, Paige should be smarter. Maybe Elizabeth drank lots of vodka in a lead painted, asbestos insulated apartment when she was pregnant. 

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, Kokapetl said:

Considering who her parents are, Paige should be smarter. Maybe Elizabeth drank lots of vodka in a lead painted, asbestos insulated apartment when she was pregnant. 

OK, I laughed. I'm a bad person.

[Razzberry]

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

I've thought it unfortunate that they write Paige as not particularly bright, but I've never understood why some think she is written as especially needy. When your parents put you in real danger of spending decades in solitary confinement, extreme anxiety is a pretty normal response. Lots of teenagers expend a lot more energy, is search of attention, in response to not having the right brand of shoes to wear, than Paige does in response to her parents potentially getting her stuck in a Federal Supermax prison. A constant stream of withering, well-informed, sarcasm, targeting the danger her parents placed her in, would have been great in this show, and possibly a pretty good source of comic relief. Instead, we get some not-too-intelligent questions and a worried look.

I agree with this for the most part.  I guess it's because she seems to swallow whatever they tell her that makes her seem needy to me.  Sure, she questions them, but rather lamely.  She has zero girlfriends and few outside interests.  The only way I can tolerate much more of her is if she started asking some hard, intelligent questions.  Creepiest scene of the episode was her parents taking her to meet Gabriel.

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

I agree with this for the most part.  I guess it's because she seems to swallow whatever they tell her that makes her seem needy to me.  Sure, she questions them, but rather lamely.  She has zero girlfriends and few outside interests.  The only way I can tolerate much more of her is if she started asking some hard, intelligent questions.  Creepiest scene of the episode was her parents taking her to meet Gabriel.

Oh, I agree that she was written as being way, way, too meek in response to her parents placing her in extraordinary danger. If there is any time to go full blown, defcon 5, teenager from hell mode, it is when your A-hole parents tell you that you are now officially a co-conspirator, without your consent being obtained, in a criminal conspiracy whch could result in you being shut off from all human contact for the rest of your natural life, for no better reason that to advance the interests of a government you only have very fleeeting familiarity with. 

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought Paige being brought to Gabriel was creepy as hell.

[dubbel zout]

10 minutes ago, Bannon said:

defcon 5

I think you mean Defcon 1. /that person

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Oh, I agree that she was written as being way, way, too meek in response to her parents placing her in extraordinary danger. If there is any time to go full blown, defcon 5, teenager from hell mode, it is when your A-hole parents tell you that you are now officially a co-conspirator, without your consent being obtained, in a criminal conspiracy whch could result in you being shut off from all human contact for the rest of your natural life, for no better reason that to advance the interests of a government you only have very fleeeting familiarity with.

But then, if Paige grasped the fact that she's in extraordinary danger she wouldn't be calling up her Pastor and blowing their cover and treating him blowing the cover further to his wife as if it was just another example of adults not understanding. She still doesn't actually act like she understands the danger. She'll come close to it for a few minutes, but then it goes away pretty fast.

Even after she got with the program of working the Tims she still seems to sometimes think she's doing it because her parents are trying to arbitrarily mold her into being like them instead of seeing it as purely practical. 

Even when she asks about specifics of what they're doing she doesn't seem to grasp the global implications. In either direction. Like if she believes the story about the wheat, is she angered at her country doing this? I mean, she thought Reagan's support of South Africa was worth writing a letter over. But she doesn't seem to be responding to it with anything beyond "Oh, so I guess what you're doing now is Good." As opposed to when they told her Philip was going to pick up part of a weapon that the USSR needed to defend itself, which one might expect the anti-nukes protester to question (since he didn't specify that he was actually picking up a deadly pathogen).

This is somebody who was supposed to be very politically active up until the moment she found out she was living on the front lines of the Cold War.

[Ellaria]

33 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

I agree with this for the most part.  I guess it's because she seems to swallow whatever they tell her that makes her seem needy to me.  Sure, she questions them, but rather lamely.  She has zero girlfriends and few outside interests.  The only way I can tolerate much more of her is if she started asking some hard, intelligent questions.  Creepiest scene of the episode was her parents taking her to meet Gabriel.

Yes...and I have said this in the past. Why don't we see her with friends doing things that teenage girls do? Her only activity/interest is Pastor Tim and his church. And even in that context, are there other teenagers at the church that she hangs out with or talks to on the phone? We have a limited view into Paige's life. What happens in school when she gets invited to parties, study groups? Does she refuse to go because she is afraid to spill the beans about her parents?

We primarily see her in her bedroom with that hideous, seizure-inducing wallpaper. 

18 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Oh, I agree that she was written as being way, way, too meek in response to her parents placing her in extraordinary danger. If there is any time to go full blown, defcon 5, teenager from hell mode, it is when your A-hole parents tell you that you are now officially a co-conspirator, without your consent being obtained, in a criminal conspiracy whch could result in you being shut off from all human contact for the rest of your natural life, for no better reason that to advance the interests of a government you only have very fleeeting familiarity with. 

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought Paige being brought to Gabriel was creepy as hell.

Perhaps meek is a better descriptor for Paige than needy. It seems that all character development was thrown out the window when they decided to introduce Paige to the world of spying. I understand the difficulty that she has processing this information. However, her entire purpose is to demonstrate that her parents have not always made good choices. After her "I'm destined to be alone" declaration to Phillip, I was hoping that P&E would roll back her involvement in their world (or maybe get her a kitten). No...instead they drag her to meet Uncle Gabriel.

And count me as #3 that thinks it was creepy as hell. 

[minamurray78]

Wouldn't it be funny if, in a tragic turn of events, while trying to steal the strongest sample of wheat, they screw things up and the lab accidentally goes up in smoke, destroying all the samples and research for good, and then the company just gave up on that project? After being so (wrongly) pissed off about America (falsely) trying to starve Russia, they end up being the cause world hunger cannot be stopped. Not to mention, the unnecessary dead lab dude. It still burns me because, after being wrong about it the first time, they still want to steal somebody else's work, and use it for themselves. Because you know they were not going to give it away for free either.

Why on earth did we have to put up with Misha's sad and dangerous espace from the east throughout multiple episodes, only to have  him swiftly defused by Gabriel and back in Russia in a minute? If that is the last of him we see, I'd rather they'd spent all that screen time with Pillip and Tammy smoking weed and praying. Seriously.

Also, Oleg's storyline better get some fire lit under it, 'cause he's my favourite character but this is dragging.

Philip and Elizabeth know ansolutely NOTHING about Henry. And it doesn't even concerned them. They're not even worried that they know shit about their son, who just pulled a secret Math Genious from under them without them noticing. I mean with their job, they should be aware how much a person can conceal from others, hide their true fellings and thoughts. Paige showed up one day wanting to go to church, you'd think they would be a bit more proactive into their other son's interests. What if one day he develops a patriotic sense and enlists of whatever, and they are too late to turn him into the soviet cause? Because it seems to me, the way they raised the kids was also part of the cover. Sure, kids babble and you don't want the other parents and school authorities gossiping about the commie shit the Jennings are feeding their kids, but like many other posters pointed out before, they didn't even try to ingrain some kind of moral or social conscience on their kids. Particularly hard to believe from Elizabeth who, despite admitting to life in Amedrica being easier, still sees its many failings.

Philip is struggling so much. I don't know how much he's blocked from trauma, or 'cause he was very young. If he's father was a guard for the kgb, it's possible other kids didn't openly confront him out of fear of his father's connections, even if he was just a lowly guard.

I thought the story E was feeding the doctor was actually Paige's problems after the mugging incident. She may have rolled her eyes, but I think she was fishing for some kind of insight into what was bothering her daughter so much.

Edited April 12, 2017 by minamurray78

[tennisgurl]

You know what just hit me? Groovy Hair reminds me of a more politically active 1980s version of Pastor Tim Tom from The Middle! Religious guy who relates to the young people and uses tons of music to spread their message? Now I cant unsee it.

Anyway, I'm going to be so pissed off if this is the end of Mischa. I've really come to care about him and root for him to escape and find his dad, and now that's it? He just goes back to the country he went through all that to escape from, without Philip ever having met him? I trust the writers to have a point to all this, but they better explain it soon! Maybe finding out The Centre lied about Mischa and kept him from Philip will finally cause Philip to turn?

Oh my God, I was so convinced that Oleg was going to jump for a second there. I was already reaching for my phone to start sending out some very strongly worded tweets! I hope this means that he's really safe from the CIA, but I'm still not sure. I like seeing him at work, but I feel like there will be some other way he will get tied into the story, or will meet more obstacles. And, I know I say this ever week, but good LORD can that man rock a black coat.

Every time we learn more about Philips childhood, I feel more like his whole life is one long Andrei Tarkovsky film. Although I'm really hoping his life has a slightly happier ending than most Tarkovsky movies. I get the feeling that if/when Philip finds out about Mischa, that will be the last straw before he gets a ticket to the Screw This and Screw You train. So Philips dad was a low level guard at a prison camp? When did they recruit Philip, exactly? We saw him already in training as a teenager, when did they find little Mikael out in Siberia?

Elizabeth in therapy is interesting, considering Elizabeth is basically the last person in the world to get into talking about her problems. She did seem to actually get some perspective though, which does show that Liz has made at least some development from the first season. "Do people here really bitch about some lousy mugger? Back in the USSR, I had to fight two bears on my way to school, ever day, up AND down hill, in a blizzard! And I had to do the same thing on the way home to get to my daily turnip! And we liked it that way!"

If this is the end of Gabrielle I will really miss him on the show. I used to think he was just sketchy, but now I think he really does care about P & E, and he really is just exhausted and wants to go home. Although, I remember what happened to Gaad when he retired, and when William was about to be sent home. Its the Americans version of being only two days away from retirement in an 80s cop movie!

[Silly Angel]

If there had been any Russian bugs in my workroom, and who's to know there aren't?, they would have been very confused or perhaps titillated by me breathing, "Oleg, no. Oleg... Oh god, Oleg." I was so relieved when he didn't jump. This show is better than that.

My heart broke almost as hard as Elizabeth's when memories of Young Hee flashed through her mind. She's doing the big work, with global consequences, but nothing keeps her warm, certainly not the comforts and conveniences of life in the U.S. that Philip so adores. She has no friends and can never have any. No wonder she tried to forestall Gabriel's exit in the form of a bribe with super worried eyebrows.

Can't wait to see Commie Grandpa and Codename Quiverlip bond, and to see what Claudia will make of it.

[Paloma]

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

remember that this is what it was like in the 80s. Their own parents were the same way. If you said you were going to Chris's house that was fine.

sistermagpie, great post as usual! I'm not quoting the whole thing (because of the length), but the quoted point is interesting because it illustrates another way that the time period is so important to the overall plot of the series. Similar to the lack of cellphones and the computerized data on a large scale, the lack of expectation for close parental supervision helps allow P&E to get away with their secret lives. Yet things would be very different just a few years later--my daughter was born in 1983, just in time for the beginning of the helicopter parenting era (caused in part by the media coverage of kidnapped and murdered children). We moved to the DC suburbs (in Maryland, not Virginia, but they are very similar) in 1988 when our daughter was 5, and every aspect of her life was closely supervised--no free play outside of our yard when she was little, and no going over to friends' houses without parental permission and coordination until mid-teens (when the kids began to drive). Any parent who did not provide this level of supervision, at least among the middle-class or upper-middle-class neighborhoods like the one P&E live in, might be viewed with suspicion by other parents and possibly by the authorities. Some of you may have read about the parents from this area that got in trouble for letting their kids walk alone--although this happened in the last couple of years, I think the attitudes and debate about the issue would have been similar in the late 1980s: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/01/15/parents-investigated-letting-children-walk-alone/21795863/

[dubbel zout]

My mom always expresses amazement at what she allowed us to do by ourselves when we were kids (most of the '70s), but it truly was a Different Time.

[Trillian]

4 hours ago, crgirl412 said:

I wrote about this years ago!  I said that at least they could have The Nation laying around or listen to NPR even.  It really bothers me that P & E are so committed to something that they give their entire lives to it but then don't try to raise their kids with that worldview in any way, shape or form.  That is so unrealistic. 

Were you raised in same time frame as Paige and Henry?  How did your parents raise you as a socialist even if you weren't?   

I've lost track of the timeline (and don't like to think about my age) but I'm about 4-5 years older than Paige and so, yes, I was raised in roughly in the same timeframe. How was I raised a socialist?  The same way anyone is raised in any political ideology, be it left or right or centre (or even political apathy). Parents drop constant little hints to their children about what they consider to be right and wrong, commenting on the news or political/social issues of the day or just teaching morality. My father was a good union man and my parents talked about what that meant - in our household "scab" was one of the worst insults you could hurl at someone. It's easier here in Canada to be a socialist, since we have a 3-party system (apologies to the Greens out there) and the left is simply more mainstream than in the U.S., but kids pick up what their parents think is right and wrong, politically or otherwise. They may reject it as they become politically aware, but the foundation is laid in so many little ways. 

Thats what what I don't understand about how Paige was raised.  Any social consciousness she has seems to have come from her exposure to Pastor Tim, and that was more about her wanting to have a feeling of belonging than finding the place where her ideology fit (IMO).  If my parents had revealed to me at Paige's age that they were Soviet spies, we would have first had a conversation about how we were democractic socialists and not communists and then about whether the Soviet Union was actually a communist state or simply state capitalism (working class does not equal stupid - oops, there's my background slipping out again). And then, I probably would've said "Yes!  Let me join the People's struggle for freedom and equality!"  Paige is such a babe-in-the-woods with no social consciousness and no - zero - pre-formed political thoughts, one way or another.  I'm not suggesting that P & E should have used Marx's collective works as bedtime stories (and thanks to the poster who clarified that - I had been thinking that Capital should've been a door stopper and not a slim paperback and was confused), but Paige should know *something* about politics rather than being the blank slate she is. 

[Sighed I]

You know, the posters who have mentioned the creepiness of E/P bringing Paige to meet Gabriel make a very good point. My initial reaction was surprise and a bit of confusion, but seeing as it was an actual development in her story I was thinking, okay, cool, something different is happening.

So what was the purpose of introducing her to Gabe? It does seems strange, given the Center's interest in Paige and the shaky ground both E & P are on about the rightness of what they are doing (even if E has been able to hide it so far). If they're not even sure about their own lives, why would they subject her to this (I'm especially looking at you, Philip)? To my mind the more entrenched she gets into their secret world, the more stuck she's going to be to take the path TPTB have set out for her. Paige already feels boxed in with what she knows and how this impacts her current/future relationships. Now they're making her isolation even more profound.

With the way they are handling Paige and Henry right now, E/P are making a lot of very questionable parenting decisions. I know having kids was a pretty selfish thing to do in the first place--their purpose being to provide cover--but I've never questioned whether they loved their kids. But good lord they are fucking up big time.

You'd think after learning about Henry's affinity for math it would be a sign that you know, maybe we need to work on connecting with our son more. It's funny with all they do to manipulate others, taking on personas to gain the trust of their marks, they are just totally clueless when it comes to Henry especially, and he lives with them and has been his entire life!

[Erin9]

1 hour ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Yes...and I have said this in the past. Why don't we see her with friends doing things that teenage girls do? Her only activity/interest is Pastor Tim and his church. And even in that context, are there other teenagers at the church that she hangs out with or talks to on the phone? We have a limited view into Paige's life. What happens in school when she gets invited to parties, study groups? Does she refuse to go because she is afraid to spill the beans about her parents?

We primarily see her in her bedroom with that hideous, seizure-inducing wallpaper. 

Perhaps meek is a better descriptor for Paige than needy. It seems that all character development was thrown out the window when they decided to introduce Paige to the world of spying. I understand the difficulty that she has processing this information. However, her entire purpose is to demonstrate that her parents have not always made good choices. After her "I'm destined to be alone" declaration to Phillip, I was hoping that P&E would roll back her involvement in their world (or maybe get her a kitten). No...instead they drag her to meet Uncle Gabriel.

And count me as #3 that thinks it was creepy as hell. 

I'm thrilled we don't dig deeper into Paige's life. I don't care. I don't need to know.  Her life- on this show imo- matters as it relates to her relationship with her parents and the spy aspect of their lives. I assume, that since Paige is active in the church, she has friends through that. She got introduced to the church via a fellow teen in a youth group. And the scene where she takes Matthew to the church when Pastor Tim was missing saw her hugging some young guy. It implies she's developed some relationships there. I don't need to know more. Digging into the rest of her life would just suck up airtime on an already packed show. 

Her relationship with Matthew is along the same lines. It's mostly about her relationship with him against the backdrop of her parents being spies, his dad a FBI agent. It's not like they spend time developing their relationship to where you really care about them as a couple. I don't anyway. 

I think the point of her meeting Gabriel has less to do with spying and pulling her into spycraft and more to do with giving her the opportunity to meet someone who knows her parents- who they really are- very well. It's not creepy to me. The last thing we hear is Philip saying he didn't know anything about his parents. Next thing you know, Paige is meeting Gabriel. Plus, Gabriel is leaving. This is also them saying good-bye. It's not like Paige will be regularly meeting with him from here on out. (I really hope this isn't the last we see of him though. In early S3, he seemed to be a bit more manipulative of them as needed, but we've really seen his true affection for them for a long time now, even as he prods them along.)

I think the thing with Henry right now is he's a pretty normal kid. He's frustrated that he thinks he's 2nd to Paige and that his parents didn't think he was smart, but as his teacher said, he's basically a good kid. They do need to pay more attention to him, try harder no doubt. Sadly, and I don't blame Henry for this, but he hasn't really demanded their attention, and he's obviously not a trouble maker, which would also get their attention. Paige forces it- has since S2. The Centre demands it. He doesn't. Henry has played video games- even when he had the opportunity to engage with the family, apparently started focusing on math, met a girl he likes, and snarked at his parents- only to immediately retreat. But he hasn't pushed to make himself known to his parents. Or asked them questions about their lives. And his parents are stretched super thin. I think they will. It seems like part of the point of Philip's memories surfacing is to lead him to change his relationships with his kids, but we'll see. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by Erin9

[Epeolatrix]

I thought they took Paige to see Gabriel because:

1) he has become a surrogate father for Philip and Elizabeth and because they are both emotionally vulnerable right now (for a variety of reasons), they are extra-upset that he's leaving / dying / abandoning them, so they want Paige to meet "Grandpa" before he's gone. There's a lot of daddy-issue story-lines coming to the fore this season.

2) he is very good at talking up the value of The Work and can answer Paige's questions better than her parents can. He might also realize for himself how entirely unsuited Paige would be to the world of espionage and can pass that along to the Center.

[Ellaria]

26 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I'm thrilled we don't dig deeper into Paige's life. I don't care. I don't need to know.  Her life- on this show imo- matters as it relates to her relationship with her parents and the spy aspect of their lives. I assume, that since Paige is active in the church, she has friends through that. She got introduced to the church via a fellow teen in a youth group. And the scene where she takes Matthew to the church when Pastor Tim was missing saw her hugging some young guy. It implies she's developed some relationships there. I don't need to know more. Digging into the rest of her life would just suck up airtime on an already packed show. 

Her relationship with Matthew is along the same lines. It's mostly about her relationship with him against the backdrop of her parents being spies, his dad a FBI agent. It's not like they spend time developing their relationship to where you really care about them as a couple. I don't anyway. 

I think the point of her meeting Gabriel has less to do with spying and pulling her into spycraft and more to do with giving her the opportunity to meet someone who knows her parents- who they really are- very well. It's not creepy to me. The last thing we hear is Philip saying he didn't know anything about his parents. Next thing you know, Paige is meeting Gabriel. 

I did not suggest that they should suck up air time with Paige's storyline. If you follow the thread of comments, I was expressing frustration with the way the character is written. Based on what we have been shown, I find her to be meek, naive and lacking in natural (?) curiosity about parent's life and ideology. Simply put, the character annoys me. I am well aware that her life on the show matters in relation to her parents. In fact, I alluded to something like that in my post.

We will have to agree to disagree. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by Ellaria Sand

[Erin9]

4 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I did not suggest that they should suck up air time with Paige's storyline. If you follow the thread of comments, I was expressing frustration with the way the character is written. Based on what we have been shown, I find her to be meek, naive and lacking in (what I assume) natural curiosity about parent's life and ideology. Simply put, the character annoys me. I am well aware that her life on the show matters in relation to her parents. In fact, I alluded to something like that in my post.

We will have to agree to disagree. 

I know you're frustrated with the character's writing.  I'm just choosing not to dig into how I feel about her character as written, but simply on the part about how there are aspects of her life that aren't focused on. All I mean is I don't need to know.  I don't have an interest in the rest of her life. I don't need to see it or hear it referred to- be it for 5 seconds or 5 minutes. That's the only part I was referring to. 

[Ellaria]

2 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I know you're frustrated with the character's writing.  I'm just choosing not to dig into how I feel about her character as written, but simply on the part about how there are aspects of her life that aren't focused on. All I mean is I don't need to know.  I don't have an interest in the rest of her life. I don't need to see it or hear it referred to- be it for 5 seconds or 5 minutes. That's the only part I was referring to. 

Yeah...I'm not interested in seeing her hanging out with friends at the mall either. I ask for more information so that we could possibly understand why either parent thinks that she is emotionally capable of handling the burden that they have imposed on her. (I'm not sure what 16-yr-old could handle it.) And that may reflect more on P&E than Paige herself. If this wasn't such a high-quality, multi-layered show perhaps I wouldn't be as frustrated with the execution of Paige's storyline. 

[BetyBee]

In the final scene, Paige looked terrified in the car.  After they walked into the safe house, Elizabeth looked so proud to be presenting her daughter, the newest recruit, to Papa-Gabriel.  Honestly, Phillip must be totally on board with it too.  I know Elizabeth is proud of what she does, but much of it is downright nasty and evil.  Maybe she's hoping that Paige will never have to honey-trap or murder, but I for one, am just not sold on their great cause.  Phillip has had doubts since Season 1, Episode 1.  Back then, they were adamant about the kids not knowing what they do.  This is a change and I'm sure the writers know where they're going with this story.  I do love this show, but I'm not really enjoying the Paige as a spy aspect of it.  Oh well, I still can't wait to see the next episode.

[jjj]

I don't think anyone has talked about this:  who was the woman that Phillip and his two KGB co-workers (woman with the glasses and African-American man)were stalking and photographing?  Seems like they were following her several days a week to work and trying to get photographs of anyone she talked to.  She did not look like the ex-pat Russian wife who just got a job teaching Russian at the CIA (right?).  And I wondered if they were following the same person that Stan had approached in the park?  I really could not tell who that woman was. 

Edited April 13, 2017 by jjj

[JudyinDallas]

Do you think that Gabriel is thinking of defecting?  That would certainly be a twist.

[Domestic Assassin]

Quote

She did not look like the ex-pat Russian wife who just got a job teaching English at the CIA (right?).  And I wondered if they were following the same person that Stan had approached in the park?  I really could not tell who that woman was. 

She looked like the ex-pat Russian wife to me, petite with shortish dark hair.  It definitely was not the blond woman Stan & Aderholt met in the park.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

The Americans Tries Shrinking Another Head

Elizabeth's new op has her looking into a psychiatrist -- which is kind of convenient, since she has some things she might want to talk about. (Obliquely.)

[Erin9]

1 hour ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Yeah...I'm not interested in seeing her hanging out with friends at the mall either. I ask for more information so that we could possibly understand why either parent thinks that she is emotionally capable of handling the burden that they have imposed on her. (I'm not sure what 16-yr-old could handle it.) And that may reflect more on P&E than Paige herself. If this wasn't such a high-quality, multi-layered show perhaps I wouldn't be as frustrated with the execution of Paige's storyline. 

To me, without knowing anymore about Paige's life, I feel like I know the answer to that is:  they're not sure she can handle it. Philip, in particular, feels like this is too much. 

Philip never wanted Paige to know the truth. For most of Paige's life, Elizabeth didn't either. That changed when the centre changed their minds- and Elizabeth liked the idea of Paige understanding who Elizabeth is. BUT- even with that, Elizabeth was pretty hesitant. She didn't lay any groundwork with Paige until Gabriel pointed out she actually wasn't doing anything. In the end, Paige only found out when she played the: if you love me card. Given that opening, Elizabeth hesitated even then.  I think the only reason they told her is they were more afraid- rightly or wrongly- of the consequences of not telling her. It's difficult to say whether that was the right call without actually seeing the consequence of their continued silence. 

From there, it's mostly been about containment. I don't think they know what else to do now though. They don't have good options here. (Hide from the KGB and FBI or defect and hope the KGB doesn't get them.) They're both worried about the Matthew relationship. And Philip looked gutted when Paige talked about how miserable she was. As Philip has always known, Paige is like him emotionally. I think they feel like they're treading water with her. Elizabeth is slightly more optimistic, but even that is tinged with fear. 

[Sighed I]

4 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I think the point of her meeting Gabriel has less to do with spying and pulling her into spycraft and more to do with giving her the opportunity to meet someone who knows her parents- who they really are- very well. It's not creepy to me. The last thing we hear is Philip saying he didn't know anything about his parents. Next thing you know, Paige is meeting Gabriel. Plus, Gabriel is leaving. This is also them saying good-bye. It's not like Paige will be regularly meeting with him from here on out. (I really hope this isn't the last we see of him though. In early S3, he seemed to be a bit more manipulative of them as needed, but we've really seen his true affection for them for a long time now, even as he prods them along.)

I think the thing with Henry right now is he's a pretty normal kid. He's frustrated that he thinks he's 2nd to Paige and that his parents didn't think he was smart, but as his teacher said, he's basically a good kid. They do need to pay more attention to him, try harder no doubt. Sadly, and I don't blame Henry for this, but he hasn't really demanded their attention, and he's obviously not a trouble maker, which would also get their attention. Paige forces it- has since S2. The Centre demands it. He doesn't. Henry has played video games- even when he had the opportunity to engage with the family, apparently started focusing on math, met a girl he likes, and snarked at his parents- only to immediately retreat. But he hasn't pushed to make himself known to his parents. Or asked them questions about their lives. And his parents are stretched super thin. I think they will. It seems like part of the point of Philip's memories surfacing is to lead him to change his relationships with his kids, but we'll see. 

 

3 hours ago, Violet Impulse said:

I thought they took Paige to see Gabriel because:

1) he has become a surrogate father for Philip and Elizabeth and because they are both emotionally vulnerable right now (for a variety of reasons), they are extra-upset that he's leaving / dying / abandoning them, so they want Paige to meet "Grandpa" before he's gone. There's a lot of daddy-issue story-lines coming to the fore this season.

2) he is very good at talking up the value of The Work and can answer Paige's questions better than her parents can. He might also realize for himself how entirely unsuited Paige would be to the world of espionage and can pass that along to the Center.

I can see it as an affection for Gabriel and the points both of you have made do make sense. Maybe part of the problem is that I'm looking at these parental decisions from an American perspective. It still seems like they're putting a big ole target on Paige's back if she doesn't do what TPTB deem is the proper course of action. On the other hand, both kids have always had a target on their backs no matter what, based on what they did to that other spy family (whose name escapes me at the moment). The Center certainly had no problem with murdering a child.

Paige has been kept ignorant of the fact that when it comes down to it, she doesn't actually have a choice in any of this short of going on the run and watching her back for the rest of her life. She doesn't understand the values her parents are fighting for are a lot more than making things equal for everyone. That the reality is inequality is very much alive and well in their system. That the individual doesn't matter, only the collective, so naturally anyone who gets in the way is fair game, even innocent people. Would Paige find that form of social justice moral, that the ends justify the means, including cold-blooded murder? I doubt it.

I have generally assumed that at some point they are going to run, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the indoctrination is so strong it will supersede her parents' doubts and one day they're going to announce, "Henry, pack your things. We're actually Russian spies, not Americans, and it's time to return to the Motherland. We're totally burned out." That would suck (for me as a viewer), but I guess I can't totally dismiss it.

2 hours ago, BetyBee said:

In the final scene, Paige looked terrified in the car.  After they walked into the safe house, Elizabeth looked so proud to be presenting her daughter, the newest recruit, to Papa-Gabriel.  Honestly, Phillip must be totally on board with it too.  I know Elizabeth is proud of what she does, but much of it is downright nasty and evil.  Maybe she's hoping that Paige will never have to honey-trap or murder, but I for one, am just not sold on their great cause.  Phillip has had doubts since Season 1, Episode 1.  Back then, they were adamant about the kids not knowing what they do.  This is a change and I'm sure the writers know where they're going with this story.  I do love this show, but I'm not really enjoying the Paige as a spy aspect of it.  Oh well, I still can't wait to see the next episode.

Paige was sooo scared. Holly Taylor did really well in that scene.

I'm not sold either. I have rooted for E/P pretty much from the beginning, despite everything, but there really is a lot of hypocrisy in what they say they believe in and what they actually do to achieve those goals.

One of the things I do love about this show is how it forces the viewer to think. The issues it raises are complex and messy with a huge helping of cognitive dissonance, but that's why I love it.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Sighed I

[Umbelina]

I don't think Center really wants Philip back in the USSR either.  Gabe's words to him seem like a real warning to me.  "You know too much."  Yes, he does, he knows what the United States is really like, he's accustomed to going to the store and being able to feed his family, have heat, have a Camero, have nice clothing for him and his family, reading and watching what he wants. 

He knows the average Americans are as afraid of nukes as the Soviet people are...he knows "too much" and his son is a dissident as well.  He knows not only what Americans are like, what their day to day lives are like, but also a shitload of things the KGB has done.

Philip is much too close to a bullet in the head and acid destroying his body, and a replacement partner for Elizabeth.  What's more, Elizabeth is now covering for him, and both Gabe and Claudia know that, so who knows how safe she is?  Claudia tried to get Philip and Elizabeth back to being just effective KGB partners without all the lovey dovey stuff when she exposed Philip's infidelity and lie.  I think the KGB was much happier when their only real loyalty was to the KGB, not to each other.

Gabe may have been an old softie, but Claudia certainly is not, she's much more like Elizabeth in her patriotism and in following orders, and she's sure as hell not going out on a limb for them the way Gabe has done, for example, demanding they be given a 7 month vacation, demanding the government not kill Misha (which I still have a very hard time believing.) 

[jjj]

I am sure that the Mischa story will get pulled back into the series -- and given how complicated Phillip's memories and sense of family have become, Mischa starts to represent much more than just a son he never knew -- Mischa is a piece of the Russian family that Phillip is trying to connect in his head (that is, connect the fragments he is remembering).

I'll have to watch again to see if the woman Phillip and company were following is the ex-pat Russian wife.  I keep thinking that with Stan's random approaches to various Russian emigrants, eventually Stan and Phillip will end up stalking the same person. 

Add me to those who is disappointed at Gabriel leaving.  He really anchored the show.  I wondered if Gabriel standing in front of the white marble Lincoln statuary monument was meant to be the mirror image of Oleg sitting in front of the dark Lenin statue.  Both were contemplating something, and both came to decisions about how to move forward.