S04.E07: Hanging Swords

[PinkRibbons]

NOTE: Reign airs on Thursdays in Canada, meaning that the episodes are very often viewed a day before they have aired in the US. Therefore please be aware that this thread will almost definitely have spoilers for those who wish to wait until Friday night to view the new episode.

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Mary's marriage to Darnley hangs in the balance when Darnley receives a surprise visitor. Meanwhile, Elizabeth's plans backfire; and Catherine and Narcisse find Charles and attempt to convince him to return to the castle.

 

 

[yosefcoleman]

in the trailer for the episode I like that James threatens Darnley by saying If you betray my sister you will pay for your life. It shows in my opinion that he cares for mary and wants her to be happy and remain on the throne and hopefully that means he will remain loyal until the end

[PinkRibbons]

I'm going to need a far more detailed understanding of what exactly Catherine did or didn't do to Leeza that rates this level of sadism. Claude was neglected and basically hated for years and she's just a brat, definitely not a complete psycho like her sister.

The scales have tipped more in Elizabeth's favor for me now. I mean, they tried very hard throughout the episode to make her more likable, and that worked for me. It also helps that Mary's lust for the English throne seems sillier and sillier when you see that Elizabeth is only reacting to Mary's actions, not showing any interest in seizing Scotland for herself (I actually thought this episode would end with Elizabeth writing Mary a goodwill letter of congratulations on her marriage). Why does Mary need that throne so bad? The Lola misunderstanding has been cleared up, Elizabeth isn't nipping at Scotland any more than usual. It comes down to Mary herself wanting power, and that just doesn't work for the character, imo. Even on the show they brought up the fact that she'd probably be happier even without Scotland hanging around her neck, much less the whole of the British Isles. I mean, I get that Mary counts a lot on Catholic support of her throne, but with Elizabeth no longer making overt grabs at Scotland, Mary would be better served by making peace with Elizabeth and leaving them both to mind their own countries.

Now I think on it, I would find this all a lot more interesting is they would stop dragging their feet and have Elizabeth and Mary meet finally, face to face. I miss the female interactions on this show, and Scotland has been shown to be a complete boys club (as has England, actually). I'd love to see them on friendly terms before it all goes south and ends at The Block. They have a lot in common, including the fact that they have to spend all their days fighting with a bunch of dudes for everything.

Darnley...was basically Darnley, and everything James said about him. I was a little surprised Mary really gave that much of a shit about their relationship that she would cry. Anger I would understand, but sadness seems a bit much. Welp, now she's let herself know what she's gotten herself into. If she wasn't so focused on taking Elizabeth's crown I would have loved her to ship Darnley back to Elizabeth with a note pinned to his shirt saying, "you know what? He's not worth it." Liz would appreciate that.

Both Agatha and Nicole gave me strong flashbacks to Queen of the Bean, only Agatha was the actually pure young girl playing at Queen, while Nicole is the scheming skank wriggling into power. Whats-her-face from season 1 was both.

So...Bothwell. Not at all what I expected. I could see how he'd be a remedy for Darnley fatigue -- he too is apparently a scoundrel but has no intention of lying about it. Ngl, I was hoping to see Toby Regbo until the very last second when Bothwell identified himself.

[missbonnie]

As usual I pretty much agree with everything you posted Pink and the fighting with dudes comment gave me a chuckle. However I thought that Bothwell was rather hot myself. Lord knows that he's way better looking than Darnley and I suspect more of a manly man. Do we know how many episodes we are getting? Thank God Leeza is gone, I couldn't stand her. 

Edited April 1, 2017 by missbonnie

[dreamcatcher]

On 31/3/2017 at 9:18 AM, PinkRibbons said:

I'm going to need a far more detailed understanding of what exactly Catherine did or didn't do to Leeza that rates this level of sadism. Claude was neglected and basically hated for years and she's just a brat, definitely not a complete psycho like her sister.

The scales have tipped more in Elizabeth's favor for me now. I mean, they tried very hard throughout the episode to make her more likable, and that worked for me. It also helps that Mary's lust for the English throne seems sillier and sillier when you see that Elizabeth is only reacting to Mary's actions, not showing any interest in seizing Scotland for herself (I actually thought this episode would end with Elizabeth writing Mary a goodwill letter of congratulations on her marriage). Why does Mary need that throne so bad? The Lola misunderstanding has been cleared up, Elizabeth isn't nipping at Scotland any more than usual. It comes down to Mary herself wanting power, and that just doesn't work for the character, imo. Even on the show they brought up the fact that she'd probably be happier even without Scotland hanging around her neck, much less the whole of the British Isles. I mean, I get that Mary counts a lot on Catholic support of her throne, but with Elizabeth no longer making overt grabs at Scotland, Mary would be better served by making peace with Elizabeth and leaving them both to mind their own countries.

Leeza: It doesn't really make any sense and I guess they wanted a "dramatic" way to lead to Charles becoming protestant and losing his throne. It was stupid because the real history is fascinating and dramatic without adding a deranged sister. Actually in every scene at french court I was thinking what a pity it is that we're getting only a handful of episodes with these characters. Charles' story this season is amazing and I would love to see more of them. It's definitely an underdeveloped story now that they have to show three courts at once.

But honestly? I'm tired of wasting valuable screentime on random storylines like Agatha dying, when in real life so much had happened that would make a great show.

As for Mary, I think you're rignt that in Reign it just doesn't make any sense that Mary would go after Elizabeth's throne. Yes she said that she took everything from her because she was -in a sense- behind Francis' death. But it's a cheap excuse. In real life, Mary kinda was right. She was the legitimate heir because Elizabeth was a bastard and Anne Boleyn's marriage to Henry was contested. It doesn't make that much sense now, but back then it was important. And Elizabeth knew that it wasn't just Mary who wanted to get the throne she thought was rightfully hers, there were many supporters of Mary/people who wanted a Catholic queen so even if Mary genuinely had no interest in her throne, many people would gladly kill Elizabeth for her. Which is why she was imprisoned and killed in the end. That's the thing: the real story is so complicated and -at least to me- so fascinating. I don't understand why they create stories and characters that never existed in order to end up at the same things that actually happened.

[TaurusRose]

I agree with everything you said dreamcatcher about made up characters and situations usurping the richness and drama of the real life ones.  This is my beef with the shows based on real people--I'm looking at you Victoria.  I've considered Reign fan fiction from day one, but in the beginning it was fun and romantic; it has gotten more and more ridiculous with each passing season.  I am so disconnected from Mary that it's not even funny. As written and portrayed she is a first class idiot and hypocrite.  She's all pissed off that Darnley slept with Keira when she did the same thing (Conde) when she was married to Francis. Doesn't feel good to be lied to or betrayed does it, Mary? I really wish I could just punch her in the throat.  LOL

IMO, the French court has been a hot mess all season.  Get rid of one pain in the ass, Leeza, and add another in the grasping country girl all set to bog down Charles's story--which in its present form is slow, disjointed and not interesting to me at all.  I feel like Megan Fellows and Craig Parker are being wasted.  Although everything going on in England is just filler, at least Elizabeth was more human and likable than Mary.  I guess the actor playing Bothwell is supposed to be rakishly handsome, but he just came across as oily, not all that attractive, and full of himself to me.    

Edited April 2, 2017 by taurusrose

[Moxie Cat]

37 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

As written and portrayed she is a first class idiot and hypocrite.  

Best line was when James snarked about Bothwell in the tavern: "at least you have consistent taste in men." Truer word were never spoken. Mary's best relationship was the one she didn't arrange herself!

Not only was Elizabeth's legitimacy an issue (even Darnley was a more legit Tudor if you believed Henry's marriage to Anne Boleyn was totally illegitimate), but don't forget the religion issue. Mary was Catholic and there were still plenty of Catholics who wanted a Catholic on the throne. It was still a major issue centuries later when Parliament decided to switch to the Hanovers.

Agatha is the healthiest-looking dying child ever.

James is all kinds of hot. I wish they would have flirted with a James/Greer thing early on.

On March 31, 2017 at 2:18 AM, PinkRibbons said:

Mary's lust for the English throne seems sillier and sillier

As pointed out by Darnley, Mary didn't feel that her life would be safe as long as Elizabeth was on the throne. That wasn't exactly untrue IRL.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Moxie Cat

[yosefcoleman]

What do you think of mary having to take some of james lands to give to darnley. I think she had to give him land and if she took from anybody else there would be protest and rebellion but james is her brother and so he knows why she is doing it and knows she will make it up to him and wont rebel because he wants his sister on the throne

[dreamcatcher]

That's also something I don't like. I know that irl Mary had no idea how to fit in in Scottish court, but her subjects are completely disrespecting her. At least Elizabeth is way better at handling that. Mary was furious whenever people questioned her back in France, even though she wasn't the sovereign. And now Bothwell can completely refuse to appear at court (she could even call that treason), lied to her and disrespected her in front of other people and she was completely chill. Whaaat? I mean they're trying to make her look powerful and determined and she still sucks as a queen. I would much rather have her realize that people keep betraying her, that she has no idea how to connect with her subjects, who to trust etc.

And btw historians claim that Bothwell raped her and their relationship definitely wasn't romantic or even consensual, plus he is pretty much the reason why she lost her throne and eventually her life. I don't really want to see Mary getting raped again, but it seems like they're trying to make them a legit couple and I absolutely hate that. I mean (some) historians think that she was actually in love with Darnley irl so I like that they tried to add that aspect as well. But Bothwell? Don't try to sugarcoat it.

[wonderchica05]

I feel like Mary being a shitty queen is pretty true to real life. Homegirl made some bad decisions in her day.

[PinkRibbons]

On 4/2/2017 at 11:44 AM, dreamcatcher said:

And btw historians claim that Bothwell raped her and their relationship definitely wasn't romantic or even consensual

I've always had the impression that historians are split on this, actually. Some believe (which I suspect the show will go with) that not only was Bothwell Mary's lover, but that the two were complicit in Darnley's death, and that they purposefully staged Bothwell's kidnap of her and then claimed rape to excuse how incredibly quickly they got married. And yes, marrying a woman because you raped her is despicable in every way but we're dealing with medieval times here. So I've heard the case made that they used that particularly despicably acceptable (at the time) idea to their advantage, trying to salvage some of Mary's reputation, bizarre as that is. If she married right after her husband was murdered, well that just makes her look bad and more guilty of Darnley's death. If she was forced to marry right after her husband's murder, she became a victim instead of a conspirator.

Although that being said, I remember the writers saying that they felt they could "go there" with Mary's season two rape partially because many of them did believe that Mary was raped in her lifetime, only later on in the timeline. ( And who knows, perhaps they believe that Darnley committed marital rape as their marriage disintegrated.) Anyway, they have at least two different narratives to choose from coming to this point in Mary's story, both of which are arguably feasible, and if they choose to go with romanticizing Mary and Bothwell, I don't have a problem with that.

[dreamcatcher]

On 2/4/2017 at 10:08 PM, wonderchica05 said:

I feel like Mary being a shitty queen is pretty true to real life. Homegirl made some bad decisions in her day.

Yes but that's the thing, in reality it was only normal that she would have no idea how to rule a strange -to her- country. She was raised in France and she was preparing to become the Queen Consort. Nobody advised her on Scottish affairs and when she went back to a country she knew pretty much nothing about, she had no real friends and advisors. And to them, she was more french than scottish. At least Elisabeth, even with the legitimacy issue, was always in England and actually she went through so much that she inevitably became a much better player of the game. And of course, she had her own supporters and advisors. Maybe Mary wasn't fit to be Queen, but for me it was rare that a King/Queen was what we know consider "born to be a leader". Most of them relied on good advisors who basically run their countries.

That;s why I don't like Mary's portrayal (unless we see Reign as fanfiction), because they (try to) make her seem better than Elizabeth and a great ruler but she ends up making all the wrong choices.

@PinkRibbons You're right, I've forgotten about this! And I guess that if they do blame her abdication on this marriage, it fits this show and her character more to present this as her choosing love over her crown than making her a tragic victim.

[PinkRibbons]

5 hours ago, dreamcatcher said:

 (unless we see Reign as fanfiction)

I like to think of it as a fairy tale based on true events. A fairy tale where almost everyone at some point is a complete dumbass and it ends badly.

That's the only way I can explain the costumes, that's for sure.

[megsara]

Yes! Bothwell!  At least for show purposes, I'd rather go with the theory that Bothwell didn't rape Mary and it was a ploy to make their quick marriage acceptable.  

I'm glad they've gotten Mary to the point of being done with Darnley, emotionally, but I do wonder about the timeline.  She at least has to be pregnant by the time Darnley is dunzo, and they aren't even married yet!  Will they time-jump over the pregnancy? I assume we're not getting Rizzio and all that drama either.  

Re France.  Queen Margot has been a longtime favorite movie of mine, so I was always curious if Reign would bump up into the plot points from that movie, so it was a bit exciting for me to see Charles announce his conversion.   Ugh, poor Catherine.  Yes, yes, she threatened Charles with replacing him with his younger brother, but not via religious war.