AwesomO4000 May 4, 2018 Share May 4, 2018 Brought over from the "Beat the Devil" episode thread, just in case, because I'm gonna get my bitter on - sorry in advance: 6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said: I think the episode was schizophrenic that way. The first half Berens makes sure that Sam has the plan for Lucifer, he gets the most kills, he makes the hero speech, he kind of calls the shots in AU-world. It was the propping part. Then he suddenly dies and it is basically a set-up for Lucifer to come on over and bring him back. And this is where it shifts all to Lucifer. Sam is forced to be indebted to him and work w ith him and "shamefully" bring him back to camp. This is the "fuck you, Sam, Lucifer is where it`s at" part. The writers must be super in love with the character. Dabb and Singer said as much during the producer`s preview for this episode. Honestly, I thought the side characters did get the best part here. Gabriel/Rowena, Gabriel/Lucifer, Lucifer/Rowena, Gabriel/Castiel. I thought they got the best scenes. Sam`s part was schizophrenic and Dean`s part was, while not offensive, very muted. For me, the whole thing was just a set up for Sam to fail. Of course Sam had to come up with the plan and lead it... that makes it his fault when it fails. If Dean had been the leader, there would be less blame for Sam, in my opinion. I think the writers wanted to make sure this would be all Sam's fault. The silly let Sam get a few kills in was the usual damning him with faint praise stuff they often do, so it doesn't look like what they're really doing - which is making Sam be the one to fail as usual. 2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said: [snip] They have set Sam up for his fail. I'm not surprised. This is what I said would happen. Which is why I still don't think season 8-11 was about "redeeming" Sam. If it had been, the writers wouldn't be setting Sam up for yet another "fall" so soon afterwards. You had predicted that they would be examining Dean's character flaws this upcoming arc, but I don't think that's what's going to happen. Instead the writers seem to be going to the "Sam screws up" well as they usually do. Apparently Sam is the only one who has flaws that cause problems - even when Dean shows the same flaws sometimes - because we're right back to Sam again, so he can learn his lesson painfully a third time. I'm sure somehow an upcoming apocalypse will be all - or at least mostly - Sam's fault... and if it isn't I'll gladly proclaim that I was wrong. I'll laugh if they somehow turn Alternate World Michael into a good guy - maybe after Dean agrees to become his vessel... Nah, surely that's too much for this show to even do, because then I truly would give up on this show. I've already had one of my favorite characters killed and pretty much rewritten on another show - in that case as an excuse to keep around a character I loathe - so I don't need to see another character I love ruined (a second time, since it already happened in season 8), just because the show loves using him as a convenient fall guy. Link to comment
Aeryn13 May 5, 2018 Share May 5, 2018 Quote For me, the whole thing was just a set up for Sam to fail. Of course Sam had to come up with the plan and lead it... that makes it his fault when it fails. If Dean had been the leader, there would be less blame for Sam, in my opinion. I think the writers wanted to make sure this would be all Sam's fault. The silly let Sam get a few kills in was the usual damning him with faint praise stuff they often do, so it doesn't look like what they're really doing - which is making Sam be the one to fail as usual. For me it was more a case of their infatuation with Lucifer/Pellegrino superceding everything else. So Sam could have his moment in the sun but only until it was time for Lucifer-worshipping. Robbie Thompson did the exact same thing with his very own Charlie-avatar. Sam gets the smart moments over Dean but once Charlie comes on stage, Sam would join Dean in the "dumb dungeon". However, as I expected from a Berens-ep here, Dean was handled in a meh-way all throughout. And that beginning dream of Sam`s really rankled. Dean is the slob who just has food on his mind and Mary stumbles over her words in even including him. Highly complimentary view of Dean. Not. Quote I'm sure somehow an upcoming apocalypse will be all - or at least mostly - Sam's fault... and if it isn't I'll gladly proclaim that I was wrong. I`m terrified for the opposite where Dean will sell the world away because, after this last episode, he can`t bear to watch Sam die again. Which would in no way be a fault of Sam but would make Dean look atrociously bad. So for our sake, I hope we`re both wrong. 4 Link to comment
Myrelle May 5, 2018 Share May 5, 2018 (edited) 17 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: But for me, I don't get what that has to do with supposedly blaming Dean for it? For me those aren't the same flaw. One is needing to feel useful and not weak. One is not taking responsibility.*** Not Dean, in the situation I was referring to. He tried to blame Ruby for the demon blood drinking. He said to her "You did this to me." And she pointed out that he did it to himself by the choices he made. She just put the choices in front of him and he made the "right" one every time. Edited May 5, 2018 by Myrelle 5 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 May 5, 2018 Share May 5, 2018 4 hours ago, Myrelle said: Not Dean, in the situation I was referring to. He tried to blame Ruby for the demon blood drinking. He said to her "You did this to me." And she pointed out that he did it to himself by the choices he made. She just put the choices in front of him and he made the "right" one every time. This is true, however despite the fact that Ruby lied to him about what those choices actually were, Sam later had some character growth and admitted that it wasn't Ruby that was the problem, it was himself in "Sympathy For the Devil" and/or "Good God, Y'All." That was what I was meaning about Sam being able to grow and change his mind. And for most of season 5, that was what Sam did, including in episodes after "Fallen Idols" like "I Believe..." and "Sam, Interrupted." In "My Bloody Valentine," Sam even stowed his pride and admitted he needed help when his addiction hit due to Famine rather than trying to hide it like he did in season 4. Compare that to Castiel's insistence that he could "stop at any time" despite the fact that he kept on eating the hamburgers. For me that was character growth for Sam. Sam not only admitted that he had a problem, but he stuffed his pride and admitted that he needed help from his brother and admitted that he had to step down and let Dean take care of things, because he (Sam) couldn't. So while I agree with you that Sam did some blame-shifting in "Lucifer Rising." I contend that he also had some character growth that allowed him to go past that. Which was the point of my post - not hat Sam never had it or did it, but that he learned from his mistakes and had some character growth afterwards. 7 hours ago, Aeryn13 said: For me it was more a case of their infatuation with Lucifer/Pellegrino superceding everything else. So Sam could have his moment in the sun but only until it was time for Lucifer-worshipping. I can see where you are coming from, but considering that the plan was for the most part a failure, this is why I'm more leaning towards my suspicions. Now had both civilians been saved, I might agree with you, but since that wasn't that case, I think it was mostly to make Sam look bad and to set it up so that Lucifer finding Jack would look to be at least partially Sam's fault. For me, the writer didn't have Dean be in charge, because the writers didn't want Sam dying being in any way Dean's fault, so they had him hang back - not even agreeing wholeheartedly with Sam's plan (which might have also given me more evidence for your interpretation, but nope, no wholehearted acknowledging by Dean of Sam's lead either), giving his brother the shot at leading. How could he (Dean) have known, Sam would screw it up? ... so therefore that lessens Dean's culpability in the screw up and the civilian dying, making it more Sam's fault. So for me, Dean being more subdued lessens any culpability on his part rather than acknowledge any leadership on Sam's part. Depending on how it shake out or is referred to in the next episode - if it is - might shed some more light on writer intent, but for now, I'm going with my suspicions. 7 hours ago, Aeryn13 said: So for our sake, I hope we`re both wrong. Me, too. One thing I can say about Gamble... at least she was able to make an apocalypse where both brothers worked together and the apocalypse wasn't either of their faults. Both times. No blame or screw up for either brother. Link to comment
companionenvy May 5, 2018 Share May 5, 2018 I don't think the last episode was fantastic for Sam or Dean, frankly. Which sucks, but also means that I don't see it as a sign of writerly hatred for either character. An exercise I sometimes use is to ask myself, if the characters roles were reversed, could still find things to complain about for the writing of each character? In this episode, I'd say the answer is yes. If Sam switched with Dean, we'd have Sam once again taking a backseat to leader Dean, and Sam agreeing to abandon Dean/Dean's body - which I don't think Dean was wrong to do, but given lingering questions about how loyal Sam is to Dean, it would have come off far worse for Sam to do it. If Dean were in Sam's place, we'd be able to complain about Dean being damseled and ultimately leading Lucifer right to Mary and Jack. That's not to say that there aren't actually episodes that are a lot better for one character than another - and that's not a problem, IMO. But that's a different conversation. To me, this was neither a Dean spotlight or Sam spotlight, and neither Dean character assassination or Sam character assassination. I do think it was stupid to set Sam up as the leader in order to pave the way for his "fall." But I didn't see that as an anti-Sam gesture; I saw it as cheap dramatic irony, something akin to the old cop talking about his "one last case" right before getting killed. The logic being that it hurts more for Sam to die after he had been feeling so positive and confident. Link to comment
AwesomO4000 May 6, 2018 Share May 6, 2018 13 hours ago, companionenvy said: I do think it was stupid to set Sam up as the leader in order to pave the way for his "fall." But I didn't see that as an anti-Sam gesture; I saw it as cheap dramatic irony, something akin to the old cop talking about his "one last case" right before getting killed. The logic being that it hurts more for Sam to die after he had been feeling so positive and confident. You may be right, but I wish they would have considered that since Sam doesn't usually get the lead, that when they do give him the lead and have him screw it up, it makes Sam look incompetent, especially if they aren't going to have Dean give much input in terms of suggestions or strategy. Instead of it looking like a partnership - which is what it should be - it comes off more as "this is what happens when Sam tries to lead a mission" even if that isn't what they meant to have happen. 13 hours ago, companionenvy said: If Sam switched with Dean, we'd have Sam once again taking a backseat to leader Dean, and Sam agreeing to abandon Dean/Dean's body - which I don't think Dean was wrong to do, but given lingering questions about how loyal Sam is to Dean, it would have come off far worse for Sam to do it. I wouldn't have cared much about the first part, since I'm not bothered by Sam following Dean's lead.*** He's good at it,^^^ and he trusts Dean, but makes good suggestions when necessary. I actually would have preferred that, though yes, I imagine there would have been comments from some if Sam had left Dean's body behind. *** I actually relate more to that role, since I myself am better in a supportive role than a leader. I'm good at analyzing situations and making suggestions, and especially thinking of that potential thing that could mess things up that no one else might have thought of, but needs to be addressed. However, I'm not as good with strategy on the fly. Or I should say that I can do it, but I find it aggravating and stressful. The scientist in me prefers when things go more as planned. Unexpected and interesting results are fine, but unexpected glitches in the procedural method, nope. It's been a while, but I remember how annoying that could be. ^^^ When he doesn't end up being the damsel in distress. That's the thing that sometimes annoys me... especially if Sam just immediately gets damseled rather than actually helping first. Link to comment
Aeryn13 May 6, 2018 Share May 6, 2018 Since it was Lucifer coming through the rift, it was a foregone conclusion that Sam would be the one who died and be revived by him. They did this sudden mini-arc for the last few episode where Sam once again became super-focused on Lucifer (compared to last Seasons) and he gave him the "haha, sweet revenge" speech earlier on. Also he was the one who came up with the plan to have him slow-drip his grace. So those things needed to be Sam. If Lucifer had revived Dean and they would have shared a scene, it would have seemed a lot more random. Now Sam didn`t need to specifically lead the mission for any of the above. I think this is just Berens preference and callback to the General Winchester stuff from last year. I do believe he prioritizes Sam over Dean but vastly prioritizes Lucifer (and maybe Rowena, Cas and Gabriel) over Sam. Which is why the episode ended up as it did. 8 Link to comment
companionenvy May 6, 2018 Share May 6, 2018 4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: You may be right, but I wish they would have considered that since Sam doesn't usually get the lead, that when they do give him the lead and have him screw it up, it makes Sam look incompetent, especially if they aren't going to have Dean give much input in terms of suggestions or strategy. Instead of it looking like a partnership - which is what it should be - it comes off more as "this is what happens when Sam tries to lead a mission" even if that isn't what they meant to have happen I'm not that bothered by it because S12 was a particularly good season for Sam, in the action department. Last year at this time, we were having discussions about how Dean was useless and Sam was a super hunter. Some of us noted then that these things tended to go in cycles, and sure enough, this year, IMO, Dean has been the more effective hunter once again. What I don't think has gone in cycles is the trend you often point out of Sam being the cause of major screw-ups without getting proportionally major wins - and without reckless actions by Dean causing similar severe consequences. I don't think this is deliberate on the part of the writers, myself, but it does rankle. So I'm just hoping that Sam isn't portrayed as a screw-up for leading Lucifer to Jack (which wouldn't be deserved, under the circumstances) and that he doesn't do something else to mess everything up. 1 Link to comment
devlin May 7, 2018 Share May 7, 2018 What’s with all the “dean left sam’s body behind”? The minute he got everyone to the camp safely he was heading back. He took a few seconds out to refill his bottle and then he was going 4 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 May 7, 2018 Share May 7, 2018 5 hours ago, devlin said: What’s with all the “dean left sam’s body behind”? I don't think anyone is really saying this in a way that is implying a negative? I haven't really seen this myself. Link to comment
AwesomO4000 May 8, 2018 Share May 8, 2018 (edited) From the "Bitterness" thread: 48 minutes ago, belbar said: It was, above all, what I perceive as arrogance on his part, and all the consequences that IMO it brings. Paradoxically I think that it comes from his insecurities and it's the way he tries to cover for them. But it doesn't change what it is. That's what I can't get over and I think has it been there from the start. So again I don't see the writers doing anything to Sam. Nor to make him look back for whatever reason or that they have a plot in mind and don't care if they throw Sam under the but as long as they get there. I think that's who he is. It's what Kripke made him to be from the start. So Carver in season 8 wrote a plot that made him look bad? yes he looked bad, but in my opinion what made that was the way he's always been. Selfcentered and arrogant (and Jared's perfomance doesn't help there IMO). It's not new. I actually don't disagree with most of this. I agree that Sam has arrogance and sometimes deflects, and Carver showing that wouldn't have bothered me. I like Sam because he is human with human flaws rather than "he just cares too damn much" flaws. I really like Dean also - I just don't find his flaws all that relateable. He's just more stereotypical "hero" to me. So Carver going with Sam's flaws - again, if he had to, because I thought Sam already learned that lesson, but okay - I wouldn't have minded. It was the other things - like not looking for Dean (something Sam had not done since season 1) with a lame retcon of a never before seen "agreement" that Dean even stated neither one ever before followed. It was not looking for Kevin, and not giving Benny a chance when, in general Sam did give monsters a chance. Some saw all of these as in character, but I didn't really - or at the very least exaggerating Sam's bad characters. I also didn't think Sam giving up hunting entirely and not at least keeping contact with other hunters to provide information made sense for his character at that point in his development either, but I could have accepted that without having him insinuating that it wasn't important or whatever... Sam hadn't done that since season 1 - and had actually done the opposite since then, sometimes reminding Dean when Dean was down that what they did was important. So Sam just spouting that kind of thing off as if that was how he always felt - it wasn't - without any reasoning behind the change was out of character for me. It's those kind of details that bugged me about Carver's characterization... like he went out of his way to undo what Gamble had written. And it wasn't just Sam. As I said, I found Dean's characterization off as well... my opinion on that. Quote It's the same Carver that made Dean look bad with the Gadreel debacle. But Dean willing to do whatever it takes to save Sam is not new either. It goes all the way back to season 2 when his father had asked him to kill his brother if he turned bad. Dean said loud and clear: "I'd die before. I'll save you if it's the last thing I do". So again, people may have not liked that, bu it was always there. This is where I disagree a bit more. I agree that this was always there for Dean, and I didn't mind them showing it. Where I disagree is with the bolded part. For me, Carver didn't make Dean "look bad" with the Gadreel debacle. In the end, in my opinion, he made Dean look mainly good even going so far as to make Gadreel simply "misunderstood" and redeeming him, too. And that's where I get rankled. If a character has a flaw, then show it as a flaw and have the character learn from it as Sam did in season 5 - 7 and 10 through 11... don't turn it into something good. In my opinion, Dean didn't have to learn anything from the Gadreel incident. He wasn't sorry he did it and there were no earth-shattering consequences, so why would he have to learn from it or change? So in the end, the flaw wasn't presented as one really in my opinion, or at least not in the traditional sense. Same with the mark of Cain. Dean showed some arrogance there, too, in my opinion, but for him it wasn't presented as so much of a flaw...and that is where our opinions mainly differ I think. It's not that I mind Sam being presented with flaws and learning from them... it's that he sometimes seems to be the only one of the brothers consistently presented that way. Quote So I guess we're back to seeing things in a different way. And that's ok. I'm perfectly fine with that. After all that's what the forum is for. People discussing about their opinions of the show. We don't have to agree in everything. That'd be terrible boring and an echo chamber and that's never good. Sorry for the long post and thanks again for being open to discuss it in a civil way. I appreciate it. No problem. I appreciate the discussion myself. I already know what I think, it's differing viewpoints and new ways to look at stuff I'm interested in. Edited May 8, 2018 by AwesomO4000 Can't talk about a bolded part without an actual bolded part. 1 Link to comment
belbar May 8, 2018 Share May 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: No problem. I appreciate the discussion myself. You know, not a lot of people are open to discussion nowaday. So again thanks for making it possible in a civil way and not exploding everytine someone differs from your viewpoints. No much time now, but I'll get back to you about your post. Seeing a few different things now ;) 1 Link to comment
Castiels Cat May 9, 2018 Share May 9, 2018 On 5/3/2018 at 6:02 PM, FlickChick said: I will never understand how some people cannot see how often Sam blames his mistakes and choices on someone else - usually Dean. It is this trait of Sam's that drives me crazy, because taking responsibility for your own choices/actions is the most important trait that a person can have. JMO Sam does not take responsibility for his own actions and Dean takes the blame and guilt for everything onto himself. John's parenting is to blame. We learn that Dean in punished when Sam runs away not Sam for instance. But Sam's historic and fgor me horrific reluctance to take responsibility often blaming Dean as he shirks esponsibility.... This is why for me it was an important step forward that Sam felt Guilt and remorse for releasing the Darkness even if he sometimes said things like this is on us. Dean said absolutely do not remove the MoC using the BotD. Cas at al. were manipulated by Sam's desperation. Dean was pretty okay and holding his own until Sam got Charlie killed. But at least Sam took responsibility and felt Guilt and apologized, made changes which is way more rhasn happened previously despite what fans of his character feel. It did not work from a writing standpoint as a heroic tragic fall and redemption arc which is why many fans,remained unsympathetic towards the character. Seasons 8-11 was written well as a heroic tragic fall and redemption arc for Sam in my opinion. Link to comment
Castiels Cat May 9, 2018 Share May 9, 2018 On 5/4/2018 at 5:42 PM, AwesomO4000 said: Brought over from the "Beat the Devil" episode thread, just in case, because I'm gonna get my bitter on - sorry in advance: For me, the whole thing was just a set up for Sam to fail. Of course Sam had to come up with the plan and lead it... that makes it his fault when it fails. If Dean had been the leader, there would be less blame for Sam, in my opinion. I think the writers wanted to make sure this would be all Sam's fault. The silly let Sam get a few kills in was the usual damning him with faint praise stuff they often do, so it doesn't look like what they're really doing - which is making Sam be the one to fail as usual. I'm not surprised. This is what I said would happen. Which is why I still don't think season 8-11 was about "redeeming" Sam. If it had been, the writers wouldn't be setting Sam up for yet another "fall" so soon afterwards. You had predicted that they would be examining Dean's character flaws this upcoming arc, but I don't think that's what's going to happen. Instead the writers seem to be going to the "Sam screws up" well as they usually do. Apparently Sam is the only one who has flaws that cause problems - even when Dean shows the same flaws sometimes - because we're right back to Sam again, so he can learn his lesson painfully a third time. I'm sure somehow an upcoming apocalypse will be all - or at least mostly - Sam's fault... and if it isn't I'll gladly proclaim that I was wrong. I'll laugh if they somehow turn Alternate World Michael into a good guy - maybe after Dean agrees to become his vessel... Nah, surely that's too much for this show to even do, because then I truly would give up on this show. I've already had one of my favorite characters killed and pretty much rewritten on another show - in that case as an excuse to keep around a character I loathe - so I don't need to see another character I love ruined (a second time, since it already happened in season 8), just because the show loves using him as a convenient fall guy. In seasons 8-11 they literally had Sam fail to save Dean, be shitty to Dean, try to kill Dean's friend who did save Dean, try to maske it up to Dean with a grand gesture in lieu of apologizing but almost die, then get mad at Dean for saving his life, go dark again after Deasn does something reckless because he thinks he has lost Sam, does not listen to Dean repeatedly, released an Apocalyptic horror on the world, actually feels really bad about it, tries to change his behavior, Apologizes to Dean for being shirty and not saving him from Purgatory and stuff and tells Lucifer he chooses to trust in his brother, RHE ONE THING HE DID NOT DO IN SEASON 4. So yes. They actually took Sam through all of the same steps as in seasons 1-5 yet this time they did not give him any supernatural excuse. And this time he actually came out the other side a better person because the writers let him admit mistakes. Yippee. As to last week. Definitely more Sam hubris. Why? DEAN and Mary are bringing up family emotional baggage. Sam's big issue is that he felt left out as a kid because John did leave him out of hunting to protect him. We saw this in JMI. This turned into a big shoulder chip, resentment aimed at Dean and Sam's hubric need to prove he is better than Dean which Ruby used to flip him. Dean has some serious Apocalypse PTSD stuff going on and also losing mom at 4 PTSD stuff and he is not in good shape. Sam is talking about big boy pants. In Sam's dream, Dean is nothing more than a pizza eating bimbo. Sam is the BDH, Mary's BDH. Unfortunately for everyone Dean was mentally checked out at the same time that Sam was up on Sam and that cave was just a major clusterFCK. No disrespect to Sam but thst is what happens to TFW when Dean checks out. It is not pretty. And it foreshadows some ugly moving forward I suspect. We're they setting Sam up for a, fall...no. i don't tbink that was the point. He had his character arc. This is Dean's character atc. I will say that every time Sam is too cocky with an adversary he loses. Remember when he tried to kill Crowley. That did not work out either. Maybe Sam will get to kill Lucifer. Someone will die though before that happens. Sam's cocksure attitude was in contrast to Dean who seems to be sure they will fail. I think he just knows they are not going to beat another Apocalypse. He feels it in his bones. That is how Jensen is playing it. The only time he felt like Dean was when Sam was in trouble but it was too late... and of course afterwards too. 1 Link to comment
mertensia May 9, 2018 Share May 9, 2018 How was it Sam being set up to fail? Sometimes plans go wrong without it being anyone's fault. I mean, sure technically it's ultimately God's fault for declaring there will be a Lucifer/Michael deathmatch but anything could have happened in the tunnels and unfortunately something did. It could have been an angel trap or a den of a very angry, protective mother black bear. 1 Link to comment
cavelupum May 9, 2018 Share May 9, 2018 11 hours ago, Castiels Cat said: Sam does not take responsibility for his own actions and Dean takes the blame and guilt for everything onto himself. John's parenting is to blame. We learn that Dean in punished when Sam runs away not Sam for instance. But Sam's historic and fgor me horrific reluctance to take responsibility often blaming Dean as he shirks esponsibility.... I’m using a spoiler tag to keep this post from taking up the whole page, but here are numerous examples of Sam either directly apologizing or expressing guilt/remorse/responsibility for his actions WRT the original apocalypse arc. Spoiler 5.01 SAM Dean— DEAN Sam. DEAN turns away. DEAN It's okay. You don't have to say anything. SAM Well, that's good. Because what can I even say? "I'm sorry"? "I screwed up"? Doesn't really do it justice, you know? Look, there's nothing I can do or say that will ever make this right— SAM No, actually. Bobby, this is all my fault. I'm sorry. DEAN Sam... SAM Lilith did not break the final seal. Lilith was the final seal. DEAN Sam, stop it. SAM I killed her, and I set Lucifer free. BOBBY You what? SAM You guys warned me about Ruby, the demon blood, but I didn't listen. I brought this on. DEAN says nothing. BOBBY stands up and walks closer. BOBBY You're damn right you didn't listen. You were reckless and selfish and arrogant. SAM I'm sorry. 5.02 SAM I'm in no shape to be hunting. I need to step back, 'cause I'm dangerous. Maybe it's best we just...go our separate ways. DEAN considers this. DEAN Well, I think you're right. SAM I was expecting a fight. DEAN The truth is I spend more time worrying about you than about doing the job right. And I just, I can't afford that, you know? Not now. SAM nods. SAM I'm sorry, Dean. DEAN I know you are, Sam. 5.05 DEAN Hell, maybe you're right. I mean, look, I'm not exactly Mister Innocent in this whole mess either, you know. I did break the first seal. SAM You didn't know. DEAN Yeah, well, neither did you. SAM looks down. DEAN I'm not saying demon blood was a great way to go, but, you did kill Lilith. SAM And start the apocalypse. 5.11 SAM: Most of the time, I can hide it, but...I am angry. I'm mad at everything. I used to be mad at you and Dad, then Lilith, now it's Lucifer, and I make excuses. I blame Ruby or the demon blood, but it's not their fault. It's not them. It's me. It's inside me. I'm mad...all the time...and I don't know why. 5.18 SAM No? So Michael’s not about to make you his Muppet? What the hell, man? This is how it ends? You just…walk out? DEAN Yeah, I guess. SAM How could you do that? DEAN How could I? All you’ve ever done is run away. SAM And I was wrong. Every single time I did. 5.22 DEAN: If this is what you want... Is this really what you want? SAM: I let him out. I got to put him back in. Even years later, it’s not difficult to put Sam right back in that headspace of feeling guilty and responsible for freeing Lucifer and the resultant consequences: 9.02 DEAN Kevin's passed out in one of the back rooms. He's a tough kid. He'll bounce back. [he pours a drink for SAM and himself] What's up with you? SAM Nothing. It's just... what Tracy said about me, she wasn't wrong. It feels like there’s an intense focus on what Sam said to Dean in “Fallen Idols,” in which Sam explains that one of the reasons he went off with Ruby was to feel strong, like he wasn’t just Dean’s kid brother. He also explicitly clarified that this was not Dean’s fault. He was not blaming Dean. Short of groveling on his hands and knees, I’m not sure how many more times Sam would have had to express regret and admit his wrongdoings before the fans who still hold it against him to this day would have been satisfied. I’m not sure how willingly subjecting himself to what he believed would be an eternity of torture at the Devil’s hands is failing to take responsibility for his actions. As for me, I’m certain I’ll go to my grave without ever seeing Dean apologize for anything to do with the Gadreel arc* or his actions during the MoC arc, up to and including nearly killing his brother. It’s only Sam’s sins we get the “pleasure” of revisiting years later à la 11.10 and 11.11 (and not looking for a Dean he believed dead was not a sin in the first place, IMO, much less in need of an entire multi-season redemption arc as you personally interpret it to be). *Just FTR, I have never said and will never say that Dean should have apologized for saving Sam’s life — I already covered why I feel Sam deserved an apology during S9 in my first post on page 106 of this thread. 6 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl May 9, 2018 Share May 9, 2018 (edited) Sam not looking for Dean, and then blaming Dean for expecting him to, is the biggest sin he ever committed against his brother, and his apology years later was weak sauce. Dean brushing his apology off as unnecessary, and Carver pulling some off-screen agreement not to look for each other out of his butt is crap, designed to lessen the shittiness of it, but it didn't work for me. And if Sam doesn't have to apologize for the times he either beat or tried to kill Dean while 'under the influence', then Dean doesn't have to apologize for what he did as a demon. I'll agree Dean should've apologized for the lie regarding Gadreel. But if Sam paid for his S4/5 sins by jumping in the pit, surely Dean paid for his MoC by being murdered and becoming the thing he despised the most. Edited May 9, 2018 by gonzosgirrl 3 Link to comment
Katy M May 9, 2018 Share May 9, 2018 19 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: Sam not looking for Dean, and then blaming Dean for expecting him to, is the biggest sin he ever committed against his brother, and his apology years later was weak sauce. Dean brushing his apology off as unnecessary, and Carver pulling some off-screen agreement not to look for each other out of his butt is crap, designed to lessen the shittiness of it, but it didn't work for me. I don't think Sam should have been expected to look for Dean. He was dead. At least Sam thought he was. So, there's that. And, Dean can feel however he wants about it. But, I don't think Sam needed to apologize for it. Dean also yelled at Sam in S4 when he thought Sam had brought him back. I've always felt that Sam can't win in that situation. 4 Link to comment
Aeryn13 May 9, 2018 Share May 9, 2018 Quote And, Dean can feel however he wants about it. That was not the stance Season 8 took on it. It was full of "Dean is so mean for daring to be hurt by Sam`s nonchalant attitude". Trying to retcon this 3 Seasons later was indeed weaksauce to me as well. What bugged me in Season 8 was not that Sam hadn`t looked but his attitude when Dean was back and that isn`t fixable in retrospect. It is what it is in those episodes. I honestly don`t even understand why Lucifer dragged this back up. Why did he even care? The episode in Season 11 was about him trying to get Sam to say "yes" to him again and what did or didn`t happen in Season 8 was so completely inconsequential to that. He should have made his case like he did to Cas "I can stop the Darkness, give me a chance". 2 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl May 9, 2018 Share May 9, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Katy M said: I don't think Sam should have been expected to look for Dean. He was dead. At least Sam thought he was. So, there's that. And, Dean can feel however he wants about it. But, I don't think Sam needed to apologize for it. Dean also yelled at Sam in S4 when he thought Sam had brought him back. I've always felt that Sam can't win in that situation. There was no evidence Dean was dead. These guys have seen enough to know that what Sam saw happen didn't necessarily, or even probably equate to dead. I could've accepted that he tried and failed, then gave up. But what they had him do instead was, IMO, shitty and selfish. ETA: and as @Aeryn13 said above, following it up with his attitude toward Dean for being hurt over it only compounded the shittiness. I don't think equating Dean yelling at Sam in S4 is a fair comparison. First, they did have an agreement, and second, Dean knew that breaking that breaking his deal was supposed to result in Sam's immediate and permanent death. So, not the same thing, in my books. Edited May 9, 2018 by gonzosgirrl 3 Link to comment
Katy M May 9, 2018 Share May 9, 2018 4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said: I honestly don`t even understand why Lucifer dragged this back up. Why did he even care? The episode in Season 11 was about him trying to get Sam to say "yes" to him again and what did or didn`t happen in Season 8 was so completely inconsequential to that. He should have made his case like he did to Cas "I can stop the Darkness, give me a chance". He didn't care. Obviously. He was trying to work on Sam's logic on how his guilt about not looking for Dean had made him do stupid things to save Dean from something else and that he should do the smart thing and care about the whole world and clearly that was saying yes to Lucifer. 1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said: There was no evidence Dean was dead. It doesn't matter whether or not there was evidence. It's what Sam believed. He said so himself. It doesn't matter to some extent if he was right or wrong. He made a reasonable decision. Was it the only decision? No. Was it a decision he shouldn't be able to live with because hindsight proved him wrong? I don't think so. 3 Link to comment
cavelupum May 9, 2018 Share May 9, 2018 33 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: Sam not looking for Dean, and then blaming Dean for expecting him to, is the biggest sin he ever committed against his brother, and his apology years later was weak sauce. Dean brushing his apology off as unnecessary, and Carver pulling some off-screen agreement not to look for each other out of his butt is crap, designed to lessen the shittiness of it, but it didn't work for me. And if Sam doesn't have to apologize for the times he either beat or tried to kill Dean while 'under the influence', then Dean doesn't have to apologize for what he did as a demon. I'll agree Dean should've apologized for the lie regarding Gadreel. But if Sam paid for his S4/5 sins by jumping in the pit, surely Dean paid for his MoC by being murdered and becoming the thing he despised the most. Sam believed Dean was dead, which is why I don’t see it as a sin. 8.01 SAM Nothing says "family" quite like the whole family being dead. DEAN I wasn't dead. [He stands up and walks around SAM.] In fact, I was knee-deep in God's armpit killing monsters, which, I thought, is what we actually do. SAM Yes, Dean. And far as I knew, what we do is the thing that got every single member of my family killed. Castiel’s fate after Dean escaped Purgatory and Mary’s fate at the beginning of this season were just as ambiguous as Dean’s at the end of S7, but I don’t hold it against Dean for assuming the both of them were beyond rescuing. Castiel ultimately came back without the Winchesters’ help, and Dean only changed tune on saving Mary when Jack provided hard proof of her survival. I think grieving and moving on is a normal response to death, not a sin. As to the MoC arc, Dean’s most objectionable actions (IMO) came after he was murdered and cured, not before. Also, dying and becoming a demon weren’t really ways of taking responsibility for his decision to accept the Mark as much as unintended (but undoubtedly tragic and terrible) consequences. 4 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl May 9, 2018 Share May 9, 2018 (edited) 30 minutes ago, cavelupum said: Sam believed Dean was dead, which is why I don’t see it as a sin. 8.01 SAM Nothing says "family" quite like the whole family being dead. DEAN I wasn't dead. [He stands up and walks around SAM.] In fact, I was knee-deep in God's armpit killing monsters, which, I thought, is what we actually do. SAM Yes, Dean. And far as I knew, what we do is the thing that got every single member of my family killed. Castiel’s fate after Dean escaped Purgatory and Mary’s fate at the beginning of this season were just as ambiguous as Dean’s at the end of S7, but I don’t hold it against Dean for assuming the both of them were beyond rescuing. Castiel ultimately came back without the Winchesters’ help, and Dean only changed tune on saving Mary when Jack provided hard proof of her survival. I think grieving and moving on is a normal response to death, not a sin. As to the MoC arc, Dean’s most objectionable actions (IMO) came after he was murdered and cured, not before. Also, dying and becoming a demon weren’t really ways of taking responsibility for his decision to accept the Mark as much as unintended (but undoubtedly tragic and terrible) consequences. We'll have to agree to disagree, because for me, that quote from 8x01 only makes Sam look worse. He now knows Dean spent a year running for his life and he's still throwing himself a pity party. The rest of 'his' family being dead doesn't excuse him leaving Dean for dead. Not for not even trying. Not with what they know. 11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: As to the MoC arc, Dean’s most objectionable actions (IMO) came after he was murdered and cured, not before. Also, dying and becoming a demon weren’t really ways of taking responsibility for his decision to accept the Mark as much as unintended (but undoubtedly tragic and terrible) consequences. You mentioned him trying to kill Sam as part of that arc. I was addressing that in relation to Sam trying to kill Dean while also supernaturally influenced. Though I'd say being influenced by Satan's own mark and being an actual demon is a little tougher to resist than the spirit of a crazy doctor - but yeah, they'd both have been just as dead if the other succeeded. And there is a whole lot of water under the bridge from the end of S7 to the end of S12. Dean saw Cas's dead body and burned wings. He saw what was on the other side of that rift, and Mary being pulled through it with Lucifer - Sam only saw them disappear. But I'll give you that it was highly OOC for Dean to give up on her - just as it was OOC for Sam in S8. The difference is that Dean did change his mind after a few weeks. Edited May 9, 2018 by gonzosgirrl 3 Link to comment
cavelupum May 9, 2018 Share May 9, 2018 4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: We'll have to agree to disagree, because for me, that quote from 8x01 only makes Sam look worse. He now knows Dean spent a year running for his life and he's still throwing himself a pity party. The rest of 'his' family being dead doesn't excuse him leaving Dean for dead. Not for not even trying. Not with what they know. I don’t personally see it as throwing a pity party as much as becoming defensive because of the way Dean was framing Sam’s decision to stop hunting, as Dean had just accused him of turning tail on the family business in the previous line. I’m fine with agreeing to disagree, though. 4 Link to comment
cavelupum May 9, 2018 Share May 9, 2018 20 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: Dean saw Cas's dead body and burned wings. Not trying to continue the discussion after we agreed to disagree, but for the sake of clarification, I wasn’t referring to Castiel’s death at the end of S12, but his ambiguous fate in S8 when he chose to stay in Purgatory (though Dean, out of an undeserved feeling of guilt, remembered it differently). 1 Link to comment
Aeryn13 May 9, 2018 Share May 9, 2018 Quote He didn't care. Obviously. He was trying to work on Sam's logic on how his guilt about not looking for Dean had made him do stupid things to save Dean from something else and that he should do the smart thing and care about the whole world and clearly that was saying yes to Lucifer. Yeah, I know that was his angle. That was much was obvious from the episode. What I meant was the writing was super-contrived to drag that specific thing from Season 8 back and I`m not sure anyone, either pro or against what Sam did really cared at that point. Link to comment
Lemuria May 10, 2018 Share May 10, 2018 8 hours ago, Katy M said: I don't think Sam should have been expected to look for Dean. He was dead. At least Sam thought he was. The question is not whether Sam should have been expected to search for Dean if he believed Dean was dead. The question is, "Why did Sam decide after 30 seconds that Dean was dead?" No body. No human blood in the room. No bits and pieces of human anatomy. Just Leviathan goo. JP confirmed around Comic Con that summer that Sam didn't even think about looking for Dean; and that now that his family was gone, Sam was "free" (JP's word) and "happy, happy, happy" and he could now go off and live the life he wanted, which apparently included fixing A/Cs. It's not as if people haven't disappeared before in Supernatural. When Sam walked into a diner and disappeared, Dean didn't just shrug and rummage through Sam's duffel for anything he might like to use. When Ava disappeared, Sam searched for her. And wasn't there somebody--darn, his name will come to me in a minute--who said, "People don't just disappear, Dean. Other people stop looking for them." Or, as the case may be, never start. For the record, if the show had, even in a dreaded montage, that Sam had turned over every stone and tapped every contact for months and had then told Jody (for example) that he just finally had to accept that Dean was dead and that Dean would have wanted him to move on, and then done exactly that, I would have had no problem with his actions whatsoever. (It should be noted that in real life, people have disappeared into thin air--and their families have often spent years trying to find them.) 9 Link to comment
Myrelle May 10, 2018 Share May 10, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, cavelupum said: Also, dying and becoming a demon weren’t really ways of taking responsibility for his decision to accept the Mark as much as unintended (but undoubtedly tragic and terrible) consequences. One could also say that jumping into the cage and taking Lucifer with him weren't really ways of taking responsibility for Sam's decision to choose to listen to Ruby over his brother either as much as they were tragic and terrible consequences of doing that, too. Intended or not, the consequences were still the result of both trying to right the wrongs that each felt they had done; and I'm sure Sam never intended to come back from the pit soulless either even though he did intend on dying-which I think Dean was also prepared to do when he went up against an angel-tablet powered up Metatron. And I believe that Dean stated outright in one episode that he started all of this-meaning the ultimate mess with Metatron(and possibly even releasing the darkness because I can't recall exactly when he said it)-by kicking over the bee's nest with Cain and the Mark and there was no "but Crowley made me do it" even implied. I mean I don't know how much more he'd have to say as far as taking on full responsibility for that goes. Edited May 10, 2018 by Myrelle 5 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 May 10, 2018 Share May 10, 2018 On 5/9/2018 at 2:21 AM, Castiels Cat said: This turned into a big shoulder chip, resentment aimed at Dean and Sam's hubric need to prove he is better than Dean which Ruby used to flip him. I disagree with all of this. I don't think Sam has a hubric "need" to prove himself better than Dean. And Ruby used revenge to flip Sam - Sam was already "flipped" before Dean came back from hell. On 5/9/2018 at 2:21 AM, Castiels Cat said: In seasons 8-11 they literally had Sam fail to save Dean, be shitty to Dean, try to kill Dean's friend who did save Dean, try to maske it up to Dean with a grand gesture in lieu of apologizing but almost die, then get mad at Dean for saving his life, go dark again after Deasn does something reckless because he thinks he has lost Sam, does not listen to Dean repeatedly, released an Apocalyptic horror on the world, actually feels really bad about it, tries to change his behavior, Apologizes to Dean for being shirty and not saving him from Purgatory and stuff and tells Lucifer he chooses to trust in his brother, RHE ONE THING HE DID NOT DO IN SEASON 4. So yes. They actually took Sam through all of the same steps as in seasons 1-5 yet this time they did not give him any supernatural excuse. And this time he actually came out the other side a better person because the writers let him admit mistakes. Yippee. Yes, I understand all of this. I just don't happen to think that it was necessary. At all. And especially not the way it was done. Because I agree that Sam didn't put his trust in Dean in season 4, but he learned his lesson and trusted Dean in season 5. Completely... even when it appeared that Dean was at his lowest since season 4 and was going to make a decision to say yes to Michael, Sam chose to trust Dean anyway. So obviously, in my opinion, Sam must have learned something - there he was trusting Dean completely even though Dean wasn't giving Sam much reason to do so. Just because Sam didn't grovel on the ground beforehand doesn't change the fact that he put his trust in Dean. Sam just put that into action... and did for most of the remaining seasons after that (except for when he was soulless). So for me, what little Carver may have gained for Sam's character from his arc - "little" being the operative word - for me was entirely wiped out by the way he did it. Having Sam do stuff he hadn't done before or at least not since way back in season 1 - like not look for Dean or Kevin, not giving Benny a chance, and seeming to think hunting wasn't important - was a crappy way to do it. The interesting thing for me is that during this arc of Carver's to redeem Sam for not trusting Dean, Dean is doing almost the exact same thing Sam did in season 4 in not trusting Sam. Dean chooses to listen to Gadreel rather than trusting Sam with the knowledge that Gadreel is possessing him. Dean let's Gadreel convince him that Sam won't agree to let him stay, and instead of trusting Sam to make his own decision, Dean listens to lying Gadreel even though Gadreel admits to doing horrible things to Sam like wiping Sam's memory, thereby showing that he (Gadreel) isn't exactly trustworthy. But this is not really brought up or addressed later - instead being diverted into something else - and in the end there are no earth shattering consequences for Dean not trusting Sam. There is no Dean admitting he is wrong either.... and this all happens before Dean gets the mark of Cain. So why not? Why is Sam not trusting Dean such a huge offense, but Dean not trusting Sam is no big deal (by the consequences, and in post season 7 - I understand that the trust issues were addressed some in season 5) Now I will say upfront that I understand why Dean did what he did, and I have no problem with Dean not apologizing. My problem is why was Sam not trusting Dean turned into such a huge deal with apocalyptic consequences that Sam has to go through hell literally to atone for, whereas apparently for Dean, it's not really that big a deal and even somewhat justified that he didn't trust Sam. This is what I have an issue with. On 5/9/2018 at 2:21 AM, Castiels Cat said: I will say that every time Sam is too cocky with an adversary he loses. Remember when he tried to kill Crowley. That did not work out either. Yeah, this is another thing that bugs. When Sam gets cocky, it's usually painted as bad, but not as often with Dean. Even when Dean doesn't prevail when he's overconfident, it's not generally presented as being because of Dean's bravado - at least in my opinion it isn't. On 5/9/2018 at 2:21 AM, Castiels Cat said: This is Dean's character atc. I will believe that when I see it... and see for myself that the narrative doesn't somehow turn it all back onto being Sam's fault like it did in season 10. 4 hours ago, Myrelle said: One could also say that jumping into the cage and taking Lucifer with him weren't really ways of taking responsibility for Sam's decision to choose to listen to Ruby over his brother either as much as they were tragic and terrible consequences of doing that, too. Except that Sam actively chose to do that, even saying "I let him out so I have to put him back in." So for me that sort of is taking responsibility. Sam basically said that he let Lucifer out and so it was his responsibility to put him back in. 5 hours ago, Myrelle said: And I believe that Dean stated outright in one episode that he started all of this-meaning the ultimate mess with Metatron(and possibly even releasing the darkness because I can't recall exactly when he said it)-by kicking over the bee's nest with Cain and the Mark and there was no "but Crowley made me do it" even implied. I mean I don't know how much more he'd have to say as far as taking on full responsibility for that goes. I don't remember that so I can't say for sure. But there was no mention of anyone else when Sam said "I let Lucifer out, so I have to put him back in," even though in my opinion Sam could've legitimately added others in there - like the angels who played a huge part. 15 hours ago, Aeryn13 said: That was not the stance Season 8 took on it. It was full of "Dean is so mean for daring to be hurt by Sam`s nonchalant attitude". Trying to retcon this 3 Seasons later was indeed weaksauce to me as well. What bugged me in Season 8 was not that Sam hadn`t looked but his attitude when Dean was back and that isn`t fixable in retrospect. It is what it is in those episodes. Season 8 is crap in my opinion, I don't know what Carver was thinking. Season 11's attempt at a fix may have been weaksause, but it was better than the crap from season 8 (for me). When the writing is painting both of your main protagonists in a bad light at the expense of making your own original character come out looking the best by comparison, in my opinion, you're doing something wrong. Benny had the opportunity to be an interesting and well-rounded character for me, but instead the writing just had me resenting him due to all the propping up of the character it did at the expense of Dean and Sam. 2 Link to comment
cavelupum May 10, 2018 Share May 10, 2018 5 hours ago, Myrelle said: One could also say that jumping into the cage and taking Lucifer with him weren't really ways of taking responsibility for Sam's decision to choose to listen to Ruby over his brother either as much as they were tragic and terrible consequences of doing that, too. Intended or not, the consequences were still the result of both trying to right the wrongs that each felt they had done; and I'm sure Sam never intended to come back from the pit soulless either even though he did intend on dying-which I think Dean was also prepared to do when he went up against an angel-tablet powered up Metatron. And I believe that Dean stated outright in one episode that he started all of this-meaning the ultimate mess with Metatron(and possibly even releasing the darkness because I can't recall exactly when he said it)-by kicking over the bee's nest with Cain and the Mark and there was no "but Crowley made me do it" even implied. I mean I don't know how much more he'd have to say as far as taking on full responsibility for that goes. For me personally (and miles vary, of course), the difference is that Sam knew his plan in 5.22 was going to result in his eternal torture if it worked and still went through with it anyway, and he approached it with an air of taking responsibility for his biggest mistake which was born of listening to Ruby over his brother (“I let him out. I got to put him back in.”). S6 nixed the “eternal” part, obviously, but the point is he didn’t jump in with expectations of ever coming back. In contrast, though he must have recognized the very real risk given the danger involved, I don’t believe Dean went into the fight with Metatron expecting to die, in retribution for his sins or otherwise. IMO, the much better direct comparison to “Swan Song” is Dean becoming the bomb to end Amara. I just don’t see Dean’s unexpected death at Metatron’s hands as being comparable to Sam’s willing sacrifice. FTR, I also never meant to imply that Dean failed to ever take responsibility for his actions at all — what I was trying to get at is that I don’t think the narrative will ever force him to apologize to Sam for actions that directly hurt him the way it forced Sam to apologize seasons later for his “sin” of never looking for a brother he believed dead. I’m sorry if I was unclear. 4 Link to comment
companionenvy May 10, 2018 Share May 10, 2018 (edited) In analyzing what Sam did in S8, I also think it is important to consider the counterfactual: what would Sam looking for Dean have looked like, in practical terms? Sam didn't know where Dean was. Dead wasn't a totally unreasonable assumption, although it wasn't a given. Purgatory wouldn't have been a bad guess either, but also wasn't a given (and, given that Purgatory is one of the afterlives, I'd argue that, for all intensive purposes, "being sucked into Purgatory," like "jumped into the Pit" is not miles and miles different from "being dead," even though Dean and Sam, respectively, wound up in those realms without physically dying first). Outside of those two options, there really wasn't much to go on. There was no reason to believe Dean was alive but being held captive somewhere on Earth, for instance. If Sam concluded that there was a chance Dean was alive or at least only mostly dead, I guess he had a couple of low-key options for finding him. He could have put out some feelers to other hunters to see if they had heard anything - but that wouldn't have been likely to do all that much good, as their list of hunter allies at that point was basically down to Garth. There is no hunter that they knew even casually likely to have had information or insights on the situation superior to that of Sam, who was actually present and involved in the whole Leviathan mess. His other option was to keep researching Leviathans and/or Purgatory, which would have been somewhat difficult post-destruction of Bobby's and pre-bunker. But he could have done it, with minimal risk, and maybe it would have led him to correctly conclude that Dean was in purgatory. But ultimately, with no reliable information on where Dean was and every reason to assume that it was someplace other than Earth, if Sam had wanted to find Dean, let alone rescue him once he did, he was going to have to start with the usual: calling upon cosmic forces, summoning a demon, trying dangerous spells, utilizing sketchy powers, tracking down a reaper, dealing with Crowley, and so on. In other words, he would have had to engage in some version of the kinds of high risk behaviors that he had tried in his attempts to get Dean out of his deal and then to bring him back after he went to hell. We know how that ended. And significantly, when he did do everything to save Dean the next time around, it also ended in an apocalypse. Thus, I really think Sam was in a totally no-win situation at this point. Not looking for Dean was IMO, Sam avoiding making some of the same mistakes he had made previously, and would make again a few seasons later. But while the narrative initially gave some credence to the idea that Sam had made the responsible choice, ultimately, multiple people in-universe called Sam out for not looking for Dean, Sam was juxtaposed negatively with Benny, the "better" brother, and Sam finally admitted that he should have looked for Dean. Even though, as I've just suggested, it is really, really hard to see how he could have looked for or tried to save Dean in any kind of safe or responsible way. Edited May 10, 2018 by companionenvy 3 Link to comment
Myrelle May 10, 2018 Share May 10, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: Because I agree that Sam didn't put his trust in Dean in season 4, but he learned his lesson and trusted Dean in season 5. Completely... even when it appeared that Dean was at his lowest since season 4 and was going to make a decision to say yes to Michael, Sam chose to trust Dean anyway. So obviously, in my opinion, Sam must have learned something - there he was trusting Dean completely even though Dean wasn't giving Sam much reason to do so. Just because Sam didn't grovel on the ground beforehand doesn't change the fact that he put his trust in Dean. Sam just put that into action... and did for most of the remaining seasons after that (except for when he was soulless). He trusted Dean to do what he(Sam) thought was best and right. He certainly did not trust Dean's own judgment of the situation and how to handle it there-which is exactly what Sam wanted from Dean at the end of S4 and what he again wanted from Dean at the end of S5 and wherein the writers tried to make us believe that that was all that was ever needed-for Dean to trust Sam's judgment more-I mean even the demon blood drinking Kripke named "cool" afterwards as part of the answer to how to get Lucifer back into the cage. So yes, miles vary greatly for me here as to how this comment can be evidence of a parallel to Sam trusting Dean in a similar manner to how Sam wanted Dean to trust him in s4 and at the end of 5. To me, the end of that episode was simply more of the same type of writer manipulations that started with Fallen Idols and went on throughout the rest of S5 and that was specifically designed to make Dean out to be overly controlling and "bossy"(sorry writers, something I never saw him as being overly that way until you tried to tell me that he was in that episode by writing him like a caricature of who and how he'd otherwise always been, up to that point in the series, regarding those two things) and to listen to Sam more and to stop treating Sam like a child who had to be watched over constantly because Sam did nothing wrong that really couldn't be excused by Dean having made him do those things. After The End, I never saw the writing as trying to tell us that Sam should listen to and respect Dean's thoughts and opinions more and trust them more, but I certainly saw it as trying to tell us the opposite where it concerned all of those things. Dean even apologized for doing this again in PONR, after having done it once and w/o a doubt, at the end of Fallen Idols-and then just for good measure and to make sure we understood who was in the wrong more as regards the Ruby mess, they had him apologize and prop Sam's thoughts and decision-making in the S5 finale. The only way that this viewer saw Dean as not being totally on board with this line of thinking by the writers was through the acting of JA throughout that mess of an episode. In simply trying to keep his character consistent to who Dean was at his core, Jensen saved Dean for me by silently showing such reticence and subtle disapproval of what Kripke apparently wanted us to see as "cool"-namely the sacrificing of the demons and their hosts(because we can't be sure that they were dead) by the draining of their blood so that Sam would have enough to drink to make him strong enough to hold Lucifer. Jensen has never saved his character for me in a more profound way than he did in that scene and, IMO, he did it by completely undermining the writing of and for his character throughout most of S5, in that one scene. And I don't think I had ever respected his ability to act more than I did at that moment, up to that point in the series. The biggest problem for me in S5 was that the writers exhibited no desire to show us the need for a more balanced resolution to the Ruby debacle. It was only Dean who had to learn to trust Sam more and stop treating him like a child because most of what Sam had done was shown to us as being a result of that and little more. I mean sure Sam had to get Dean's approval to go through with his plan and THAT(and basically nothing more) was shown to us as Sam supposedly trusting Dean. He didn't go behind Dean's back this time. That's all. Nothing else. Whoopee. Edited May 10, 2018 by Myrelle 6 Link to comment
Myrelle May 10, 2018 Share May 10, 2018 3 hours ago, cavelupum said: IMO, the much better direct comparison to “Swan Song” is Dean becoming the bomb to end Amara. I just don’t see Dean’s unexpected death at Metatron’s hands as being comparable to Sam’s willing sacrifice. FTR, I also never meant to imply that Dean failed to ever take responsibility for his actions at all — what I was trying to get at is that I don’t think the narrative will ever force him to apologize to Sam for actions that directly hurt him the way it forced Sam to apologize seasons later for his “sin” of never looking for a brother he believed dead. I’m sorry if I was unclear. IA that the better parallel was shown in the S11 finale, but I think that Carver was at least trying with the S9 finale, too. As for the apology from Sam over not even trying to look for Dean-well, it took place 3 seasons later and was shown to us after Lucifer reminded Sam of it when they had their big face-off in the cage, so Sam's actual words in that supposed apology that started off with "I've never been able to forgive myself..." seemed somewhat hollow to me precisely because so much had time had passed, in addition to Lucifer having just brought it up to him in the same episode. MMV on that, of course-and to the idea that this apology was basically just an attempt by the writers to correct/fix a "wrong" that some loud voices in the fandom insisted had been perpetrated on the character, but three seasons later and within the confines of that episode and considering the wording that was used to convey the apology?-Well, it didn't really ring true for me as being organic to the story at all and I'd rather they just stay away from apologies altogether regarding both brothers many mistakes within the bounds of the brotherly relationship if they're going to continue to write them like that. Thanks, but no thanks. I'm well over the purportedly wonderful brother bond now and, at this point, no long overdue apology from either one of them is going to make me see something that I now feel was never really there to be begin with, anyway. And that's basically and simply just where the overall writing, coupled with the overall acting of the two lead actors, has organically taken this viewer. I think that the brothers would be better off and their relationship would be a healthier one if they separated from each other more, but I'm aware that this is a very unlikely possibility given who the loudest voices on social media are, in addition to the PTBs desire to please those loud voices, and others, through writing that offers fanservice, first and foremost, to it's audience, even over good/decent storytelling. And this is more apparent to me now(since the episode Fan Fiction coupled with the end of S10, for me), than it has ever been before. 2 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl May 10, 2018 Share May 10, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, cavelupum said: what I was trying to get at is that I don’t think the narrative will ever force him to apologize to Sam for actions that directly hurt him Maybe because Dean doesn't have to be forced to apologize? While the exception of lying about Gadreel is a big one, Dean has apologized many times, to Sam and others, often for things that weren't even his fault. And they are rarely followed up with a 'but...' Edited May 10, 2018 by gonzosgirrl 5 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl May 10, 2018 Share May 10, 2018 3 hours ago, companionenvy said: Sam didn't know where Dean was. Dead wasn't a totally unreasonable assumption, although it wasn't a given. Purgatory wouldn't have been a bad guess either, but also wasn't a given (and, given that Purgatory is one of the afterlives, I'd argue that, for all intensive purposes, "being sucked into Purgatory," like "jumped into the Pit" is not miles and miles different from "being dead," even though Dean and Sam, respectively, wound up in those realms without physically dying first). Outside of those two options, there really wasn't much to go on. There was no reason to believe Dean was alive but being held captive somewhere on Earth, for instance. If Sam concluded that there was a chance Dean was alive or at least only mostly dead, I guess he had a couple of low-key options for finding him. He could have put out some feelers to other hunters to see if they had heard anything - but that wouldn't have been likely to do all that much good, as their list of hunter allies at that point was basically down to Garth. There is no hunter that they knew even casually likely to have had information or insights on the situation superior to that of Sam, who was actually present and involved in the whole Leviathan mess. His other option was to keep researching Leviathans and/or Purgatory, which would have been somewhat difficult post-destruction of Bobby's and pre-bunker. But he could have done it, with minimal risk, and maybe it would have led him to correctly conclude that Dean was in purgatory. I just don't see how you reconcile this with Sam, the legendary researcher, the guy who invariable figures out the case at hand*. It's his M.O., his role in the show - the smart one. And he doesn't even attempt to find out what happened? That's the disconnect and for me, it's insurmountable. *Once they decided Dean was just the big, dumb muscle 90% of the time. And even HE admitted to reading every book he could find in an attempt to figure out how to spring Sam from the cage. 5 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 May 10, 2018 Share May 10, 2018 4 hours ago, Myrelle said: He trusted Dean to do what he(Sam) thought was best and right. He certainly did not trust Dean's own judgment of the situation and how to handle it there-which is exactly what Sam wanted from Dean at the end of S4 and what he again wanted from Dean at the end of S5 and wherein the writers tried to make us believe that that was all that was ever needed-for Dean to trust Sam's judgment more But there was no guarantee that Dean would do what Sam - and not coincidentally, also Bobby and Castiel - thought was the right thing to do. Sam had to take a leap of faith in Dean in order for that to happen. Just because Dean's decision in the end was the one Sam had hoped for - to me - does not negate the fact that Dean had been "rocking the 'yes'" when Sam made the decision to trust him, and Sam could only go on his faith and trust in Dean that Dean would change his mind. A leap of faith that neither Bobby nor Castiel wanted Sam to make, so Sam was going out on a limb to have that faith and trust in Dean. So I disagree that Sam didn't trust Dean's judgement. He trusted that Dean would see - when faced with the actual situation of Michael and all that the angels were doing - that Dean maybe would change his mind. But Sam was putting his faith in Dean making that choice. That's faith and trust. 4 hours ago, Myrelle said: After The End, I never saw the writing as trying to tell us that Sam should listen to and respect Dean's thoughts and opinions more and trust them more, but I certainly saw it as trying to tell us the opposite where it concerned all of those things. I disagree, since the end of season 10, in my opinion, showed us that Sam not listening to Dean = starting an apocalypse. In the Supernatural universe this is for me an indication of a character's choice being wrong... and in case we wondered about it, in season 11, Chuck / God told us so, so textually the show was telling us that Sam going against Dean's opinion in season 10 - even a Dean who was influenced by the mark of Cain - was wrong. That's just the most direct example. There have been other more subtle ones, too, in my opinion. 1 Link to comment
cavelupum May 10, 2018 Share May 10, 2018 2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said: Maybe because Dean doesn't have to be forced to apologize? While the exception of lying about Gadreel is a big one, Dean has apologized many times, to Sam and others, often for things that weren't even his fault. And they are rarely followed up with a 'but...' Can you provide examples of times when Dean apologized to Sam (for things that either were or were not his fault)? Not trying to be smart, I promise, I just have never felt that Dean’s all that great about actually saying he’s sorry to Sam at least, and I’m honestly happy to correct that impression if I’m wrong. It’s been awhile since I’ve watched some of the older episodes, so for me, I think things get forgotten along the way sometimes. 2 Link to comment
companionenvy May 10, 2018 Share May 10, 2018 1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said: I just don't see how you reconcile this with Sam, the legendary researcher, the guy who invariable figures out the case at hand*. It's his M.O., his role in the show - the smart one. And he doesn't even attempt to find out what happened? That's the disconnect and for me, it's insurmountable. *Once they decided Dean was just the big, dumb muscle 90% of the time. And even HE admitted to reading every book he could find in an attempt to figure out how to spring Sam from the cage. Well, first of all, Sam usually has a lot more to go on when he researches than he would have in this case, both in terms of access to materials and in terms of knowing what to look for. Looking for a monster who fits the pattern behind a series of kills, or using the bunker's resources to search for info on the latest God-level threat, isn't quite the same as figuring out where a person goes when he and his angel buddy vanish into thin air in the course of taking out a being who has not been seen on Earth since the dawn of time. But my main point is that he could have researched, but research alone was never going to bring Dean back, because wherever Dean was, it was pretty obvious that it wasn't likely to be Toledo or New York or Austin. Research might have revealed where Dean was -- but without walking down some dangerous, dangerous paths, Sam wasn't getting him back. 1 Link to comment
gonzosgirrl May 10, 2018 Share May 10, 2018 17 minutes ago, companionenvy said: Well, first of all, Sam usually has a lot more to go on when he researches than he would have in this case, both in terms of access to materials and in terms of knowing what to look for. Looking for a monster who fits the pattern behind a series of kills, or using the bunker's resources to search for info on the latest God-level threat, isn't quite the same as figuring out where a person goes when he and his angel buddy vanish into thin air in the course of taking out a being who has not been seen on Earth since the dawn of time. But my main point is that he could have researched, but research alone was never going to bring Dean back, because wherever Dean was, it was pretty obvious that it wasn't likely to be Toledo or New York or Austin. Research might have revealed where Dean was -- but without walking down some dangerous, dangerous paths, Sam wasn't getting him back. They spent a lifetime researching before the bunker existed, and Bobby didn't become a 'thing' til much later on. Sam is a research genius when they need him to be, and there was a whole wide world out there to search and an internet to do it, if he'd had any inclination. I'm sorry, there is just no convincing me that it was lack of resources that stopped Sam from doing one single thing to help Dean besides take Crowley's word for it that he wasn't in Hell. Why they chose to portray him this way, I don't know - but if it really was to show him rising above the co-dependency, then it was a piss-poor choice, IMO. Following it up with him getting pissy because Dean had the temerity to be hurt by it was doubling down on the shittiness of it. I get that Sam fans don't get it, but for me, it cast a pall over the character that lingers today. 4 Link to comment
catrox14 May 10, 2018 Share May 10, 2018 16 minutes ago, companionenvy said: But my main point is that he could have researched, but research alone was never going to bring Dean back, because wherever Dean was, it was pretty obvious that it wasn't likely to be Toledo or New York or Austin. Research might have revealed where Dean was -- but without walking down some dangerous, dangerous paths, Sam wasn't getting him back. The thing is that Sam had experience with Hell, Heaven and he knows that Purgatory existed. He knows there are ways to get into other dimensions. Since Dick came from Purgatory, it seemed only logical for Sam to think "Hmmm maybe they went back to Purgatory.' And why didn't he at least try that route? He could have summoned Death for help. IMO, Sam didn't try because he didn't want to do it. Nothing more, nothing less. He wanted out of the life and he lost his family, so he didn't try. 3 Link to comment
companionenvy May 10, 2018 Share May 10, 2018 21 minutes ago, catrox14 said: The thing is that Sam had experience with Hell, Heaven and he knows that Purgatory existed. He knows there are ways to get into other dimensions. Since Dick came from Purgatory, it seemed only logical for Sam to think "Hmmm maybe they went back to Purgatory.' And why didn't he at least try that route? He could have summoned Death for help. Summoning Death is exactly the kind of thing I'm saying Sam shouldn't have and didn't want to do this time around. It is risky, and it hasn't ended well for him before. And summoning Death - who probably wouldn't have helped, judging by their previous encounters -- was probably among the least bad of a lot of quite bad options for doing anything that actually had a chance of working. I agree he probably should have thought of Purgatory as a possibility. But whether Dean were in Hell, Purgatory, or some other realm, opening a door to another dimension is frankly irresponsible. Even this season, while I totally understand why Sam and Dean aren't willing to leave Mary in the AU, endangering their entire world in an attempt to open the portal and save their mother is actually pretty selfish. The difference here being that at least they knew exactly where Mary was and already had some leads on how they might get her back (namely, the fact that Jack, who had originally opened the portal, was still around), so it would have been almost impossible for them to resist going after her. 27 minutes ago, catrox14 said: IMO, Sam didn't try because he didn't want to do it. Nothing more, nothing less. He wanted out of the life and he lost his family, so he didn't try. Sam could leave hunting at any time, whether Dean were alive or dead. He's done it before. As recently as The French Mistake, he had been talking about how he didn't want JP's normal life because what they did as hunters mattered. IMO, he left the hunting life during the Amelia interlude because he had lost everything and couldn't emotionally see a way forward. The show was clearly paralleling Amelia's loss of her husband with Sam's loss of Dean, down to the fact that it turned out neither of their loved ones was actually dead- they were two grieving people who came together. This argues against the idea that Sam saw Dean's death as an escape, IMO. That he afterwards embraced the possibility of finding a life with Amelia doesn't mean that he had had just been waiting for Dean to die so that he could get what he really wanted, or that he didn't really grieve him. 4 Link to comment
catrox14 May 10, 2018 Share May 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, companionenvy said: The show was clearly paralleling Amelia's loss of her husband with Sam's loss of Dean, down to the fact that it turned out neither of their loved ones was actually dead- they were two grieving people who came together. This argues against the idea that Sam saw Dean's death as an escape, IMO. That he afterwards embraced the possibility of finding a life with Amelia doesn't mean that he had had just been waiting for Dean to die so that he could get what he really wanted, or that he didn't really grieve him. I didn't say Sam didn't grieve Dean. I also didn't say that he was just waiting for Dean to die. I don't think anyone here has said that. If they have I didn't see it. That's a really strange and IMO completely wrong way to interpret my comment. It's way out of proportion to what I said and IMO hyperbolic. I think Sam was grieving and didn't want to go back to the hunting life. And when Dean saw him a year later Sam IMO was almost non chalant about leaving the hunting life. He didn't have any guilt about it at all in s8. He had some guilt about Kevin. Thus for me that faux apology in s11 really had little to do with how it affected Dean for Sam to not look for him and far more about Lucifer once more trying to manipulate Sam. And I think in Buck Leming's mind it was helping to bring it up. But IMO it didn't because Sam made the apology about himself, not about Dean. 6 Link to comment
Castiels Cat May 10, 2018 Share May 10, 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: I disagree with all of this. I don't think Sam has a hubric "need" to prove himself better than Dean. And Ruby used revenge to flip Sam - Sam was already "flipped" before Dean came back from hell. Yes, I understand all of this. I just don't happen to think that it was necessary. At all. And especially not the way it was done. Because I agree that Sam didn't put his trust in Dean in season 4, but he learned his lesson and trusted Dean in season 5. Completely... even when it appeared that Dean was at his lowest since season 4 and was going to make a decision to say yes to Michael, Sam chose to trust Dean anyway. So obviously, in my opinion, Sam must have learned something - there he was trusting Dean completely even though Dean wasn't giving Sam much reason to do so. Just because Sam didn't grovel on the ground beforehand doesn't change the fact that he put his trust in Dean. Sam just put that into action... and did for most of the remaining seasons after that (except for when he was soulless). So for me, what little Carver may have gained for Sam's character from his arc - "little" being the operative word - for me was entirely wiped out by the way he did it. Having Sam do stuff he hadn't done before or at least not since way back in season 1 - like not look for Dean or Kevin, not giving Benny a chance, and seeming to think hunting wasn't important - was a crappy way to do it. The interesting thing for me is that during this arc of Carver's to redeem Sam for not trusting Dean, Dean is doing almost the exact same thing Sam did in season 4 in not trusting Sam. Dean chooses to listen to Gadreel rather than trusting Sam with the knowledge that Gadreel is possessing him. Dean let's Gadreel convince him that Sam won't agree to let him stay, and instead of trusting Sam to make his own decision, Dean listens to lying Gadreel even though Gadreel admits to doing horrible things to Sam like wiping Sam's memory, thereby showing that he (Gadreel) isn't exactly trustworthy. But this is not really brought up or addressed later - instead being diverted into something else - and in the end there are no earth shattering consequences for Dean not trusting Sam. There is no Dean admitting he is wrong either.... and this all happens before Dean gets the mark of Cain. So why not? Why is Sam not trusting Dean such a huge offense, but Dean not trusting Sam is no big deal (by the consequences, and in post season 7 - I understand that the trust issues were addressed some in season 5) Now I will say upfront that I understand why Dean did what he did, and I have no problem with Dean not apologizing. My problem is why was Sam not trusting Dean turned into such a huge deal with apocalyptic consequences that Sam has to go through hell literally to atone for, whereas apparently for Dean, it's not really that big a deal and even somewhat justified that he didn't trust Sam. This is what I have an issue with. Yeah, this is another thing that bugs. When Sam gets cocky, it's usually painted as bad, but not as often with Dean. Even when Dean doesn't prevail when he's overconfident, it's not generally presented as being because of Dean's bravado - at least in my opinion it isn't. I will believe that when I see it... and see for myself that the narrative doesn't somehow turn it all back onto being Sam's fault like it did in season 10. Except that Sam actively chose to do that, even saying "I let him out so I have to put him back in." So for me that sort of is taking responsibility. Sam basically said that he let Lucifer out and so it was his responsibility to put him back in. I don't remember that so I can't say for sure. But there was no mention of anyone else when Sam said "I let Lucifer out, so I have to put him back in," even though in my opinion Sam could've legitimately added others in there - like the angels who played a huge part. Season 8 is crap in my opinion, I don't know what Carver was thinking. Season 11's attempt at a fix may have been weaksause, but it was better than the crap from season 8 (for me). When the writing is painting both of your main protagonists in a bad light at the expense of making your own original character come out looking the best by comparison, in my opinion, you're doing something wrong. Benny had the opportunity to be an interesting and well-rounded character for me, but instead the writing just had me resenting him due to all the propping up of the character it did at the expense of Dean and Sam. Comparison Sam's Heroic Tragic Fall Kripke (seasons 1-5) vs. Carver (seasons 8- 11) Full disclosure... It has been a while since I have done a rewatch. I will try to do so this summer and augment this in a review post elsewhere. I am posting my initial bones here. Season 1: Sam does not want to join Dean to hunt for John who is missing because he has a life with Jessica. He reluctantly agrees to help for the weekend and only joins Dean to get revenge for Jessica. Sam is pissy with Dean about his relationships with John and counsels him to stop being the good son. Season 8; Sam does not look for Dean after he goes missing when he bones Dick. He builds a life with Jessica and reluctantly returns to hunting when Jessica's husband and Dean surprisingly returns. Sam is pissy about Dean's relationship with Benny and demands that Dean never see him again; there is also jealousy because Benny saved Dean and Sam arranged a hit on Benny. BOTH SEASON 1 AND SEASON 8 FRAME SAM AS THE RELUCTANT HERO. Sam has issues with Dean's close relationships to others. Season 2. Psi kids/Psi Kid Battle Royale: Sam tries to take a bad hand and make it good. He fails and ends up dead. Dean sells his soul to resurrect Sam. Season 8, second half. Season 9 up until Dean takes the MoC: Sam tries to take a bad hand and make it good. He fails and ends up as good as dead. Dean sells his soul to resurrect Sam. Sam realizes he has let Dean down but cannot apologize. He realizes that Dean wants to do the Trials as a suicide run. It is a nics gesture except that they are a suicide run. Dean saves him via Gadreel. Sam is pissed and Sam's alienation of affections drives Dean to take the MoC to punish himself without reading the fine print. Season 3. Sam is freaking out because Dean is going to Hell because he sold his soul to save him. Dean is torn to bits in front of Sam and goes to Hell and will eventuall become a demon. Season 9 tail end. Sam is freaking out because Dean is changing because of the MoC which he took because Sam has been a really shirty brother since season 7. Dean is viciously murdered by Metatron and dies in Sam's arms and becomes a demon. Season 4. Dean is gripped tight by the angel Castiel and raised from perdition and resurrected. Sam goes dark and at Ruby's coaxing believes he is stronger and better than Dean and the only one who can stop Lucifer and save the world. He lies to Dean and repeatedly ignores his brother's pleas to stop what he is doing. He sacrifices a human life in his cause. He releases Lucifer. Season 10. Sam cures Dean from being a demon but he still has the MoC. Sam goes dark and believes that he must be the one to save Dean from becoming a demon again. He lies to Dean and repeatedly ignores his brother's pleas to stop what he is doing. He manipulates friends to help, gets Charlie killed, sanctions human sacrifice. He removes the MoC and releases the Darkness. Season 5. The writing is not consistent in season 5 which is why fans remain divided and which is why Carver repeated Sam's heroic arc which I have demonstrated above. Sam does not take full responsibility for his actions the way he does in season 11. I know Awesome will cite an apology in an episode... I want a rewatch before I discuss. I will say that one needs to accept responsibility and admit mistakes. Pushing Lucifer into a hole and suffering is not enough. Mary has done this and Dean has done the equivalent without starting Apocalypses. Season 11. Handled very different from season 5. Sam is very aware of what he has done. He talks frequently about it and needing to change. He shows grief and remorse. He tries to help people affected. He makes amends to people he has personally hurt from his past. He apologizes to Dean for not looking. They use Lucifer to address Sam's history in show of dismissing Dean, so when Sam says U choose to trust my brother... it is extremely significant. I think That this post shows the deliberate attempt by Carver to repeat the heroic tragic fall themes and give Sam a meaningful redemption arc this time around. This storyline is what actually runs through seasons 8-11. Just my imagination showed us true origin of Sam's hubric need to prove himself. John left him out of things. It is as simple as that. It was to protect him. But as a kid it gave him a chip. And yes this is how Ruby turned him. There is a scene in a bed where she cops to him... you are so much stronger than Dean and better than Dean Sam... only you can defeat Lucifer. That is hubris. So was the dream sequence. Only Sam was the BDH and Dean was the pizza eating buffoon. Sam in AU thinking he could do anything was hubris. Dean as a character is epitomized by low self worth. Such a character is not motivated by hubris. His world saving moves are motivated by self sacrifice. He believes the only value his life has if he dies saving someone else. This has been stated in text multiple times and the character has literally sold his soul to save another and died to save another. This is not hubris. Dean does not value his life. As to your other issues... I am a Deangirl. I know Dean is not perfect. He is a dirty hero, dark, snarky... can be a dick. Fine with me. But he has a good moral center. I had issues with Sam until Carver redeemed him. Was I rolling my eyes last episode... a bit of backsliding...yes but we are all human and psychology is usually deeply rooted. Furthermore Dean's behavior is obviously triggerly Sam and Mary is triggering Sam too. These are buried family issues rising up. So really Sam wanting to be prove himself to her is probably normal. Sibling rivalry is normal. I think that was more about telegraphing how far gone Dean is and how bad that is for TFW. Total clusterFCK. Dean is the center. Mmm... I try not to see the writers as against the characters. I think they do have a higher purpose. Admittedly even though I immediately realized they were repeating Sam's seasons 1-5 arcs, probably to do a redemption arc, I was miffed that Dean's arcs were truncated as as a result. The reverse is happening now because they are focusing on Dean's tragic flaw which is quite different because his emotional response and psychology is to the loss of Mary and being made responsible for Sam at 4. I am mystified that people think he was marginalized last season. First... last season was terrible and was largely moving the pieces. The main thing is that Dean's major strength is his emotional connection to characters. Good Lord it is how he impacts the storylines in a major way again and again... And they focused on The important emotional storyline to Mary beautifully which ties into his loss of her at 4 and this season in the same way he lost Sam to the Apocalypse. Sam will probably get to kill Lucifer though Edited May 10, 2018 by Castiels Cat 1 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 May 11, 2018 Share May 11, 2018 4 hours ago, Castiels Cat said: I think That this post shows the deliberate attempt by Carver to repeat the heroic tragic fall themes and give Sam a meaningful redemption arc this time around. This storyline is what actually runs through seasons 8-11. I get why you see this. My issues are that 1) In my opinion, repeating this arc was not necessary, and I explained why I didn't think it was necessary. I know many will cite "Fallen Idols" but that was 1 episode in 22 of season 5. The rest of the episodes showed something different with Sam admitting direct culpability for his actions in at least 4 of those (maybe more) both before and after "Fallen Idols." And ironically Sam did this while other characters - like Castiel - completely ignored their own culpability, and 2) This: 4 hours ago, Castiels Cat said: Sam is freaking out because Dean is changing because of the MoC which he took because Sam has been a really shirty brother since season 7. In my opinion, Carver wasn't setting Sam up as "the reluctant hero" he was setting Sam up as the shitty brother - which Sam was NOT in seasons 6.5 - 7. In my opinion, it was not coincidence that Sam was now a "shitty brother" at the same time along came Carver's own original character, Benny who the narrative made sure to show as loyal and everything that this all of a sudden "shitty brother" Sam was not. The narrative even had Dean act not like himself in order to reject poor Benny. For me, this was not in any way contributing towards a "reluctant hero" arc for Sam, because even in season 4 when Sam was at his worst, Sam never did anything against Castiel or was "jealous" of Castiel saving Dean. And with your parallel from season 1 when Sam is pissy about Dean's relationship with John, Sam apologizes and admits he is wrong about that (In "Something Wicked"). There is no extreme behavior like the "jealousy" Carver throws in there or trying to kill John or something. In my opinion, that was all in there as a means to make Benny look better... at the expense of Sam and Dean. Sam not seeing the good in hunting also seemed weird to me. Sam had been expressing that hunting made a difference and was a worthwhile thing to do consistently since season 2. To have Sam suddenly scoff at hunting was - in my opinion - completely out of character and only done to set up a false reason for Sam to learn this lesson (unnecessarily) all over again in season 10. Carver deliberately chose to ignore Sam's character evolution from season 2 through 7 on this subject. I also disagree with blaming Sam for Dean taking on the MoC. Dean made that decision partially because he felt guilty about acting questionably himself in early season 9. Saving Sam was not an excuse to then lie to Sam, repeatedly (and not just via omission, but actually lie to him), and listen to an unknown entity rather than trust his own brother. That Sam's rejection lead to Dean taking the MoC is maybe the way that the narrative tried to spin it, but that is not what happened. The badness - such as it was - from Gadreel happened because Dean lied, not because Dean saved Sam. That the narrative later shifted this and downplayed the lying was - in my opinion - manipulative and trying to shift blame away from Dean. Again for me that had little to do with a "reluctant hero" journey for Sam. Sam had every right to be angry... the narrative just instead made Sam look like a jerk for being angry, and then made Sam have to call the entity who tormented him, and who Dean helped to torment him, a "friend." 5 hours ago, Castiels Cat said: Dean as a character is epitomized by low self worth. Such a character is not motivated by hubris. His world saving moves are motivated by self sacrifice. He believes the only value his life has if he dies saving someone else. This has been stated in text multiple times and the character has literally sold his soul to save another and died to save another. This is not hubris. Dean does not value his life. I disagree with this. For me, these two things are not mutually exclusive. Sam, despite having shown hubris and often getting knocked for it, has been shown on multiple occasions to not value his life and to be willing to sacrifice it for others, usually Dean. Sam tried to give his life up to save Dean from going to hell by "giving" himself to Lilith. He also tried to change places with Dean in hell. No one was buying, making Sam feel even more worthless. The reason Ruby was able to get her hooks in Sam to start with, in my opinion, was not hubris... it was that Ruby gave Sam a reason to not feel worthless. Sam was literally committing suicide via demon when Ruby came along and saved him and convinced him she could give him vengeance and a way to save others. One of the main reasons Sam was addicted to the demon blood was because it made him feel powerful rather than worthless. And he realized in season 5 that he missed that feeling, even though he knew it was also a false sense of control. Sam admitting that in "Good God, Y'All" and that he needed help in "My Bloody Valentine" was part of his changing his ways rather than assuming he could do it all on his own. Sam in season 4 showed hubris as you said after he was drinking demon blood, but in my opinion, he's not the only one. Dean himself showed hubris after he took the mark of Cain. Dean tried to paint it as "keeping Sam safe," but in reality Dean with the mark just thought he didn't need Sam and that Sam would just be "in the way." The narrative just painted Dean as more justified in his hubris, because Dean got to kill Abaddon with no earth-endangering repercussions. That doesn't change for me that Dean was showing hubris there. Dean was also showing hubris in his decision to lie to Sam about Gadreel, thinking that he knew better than Sam concerning Sam's own life and that it was his (Dean's) choice to let Gadreel stay. Dean then tried to blame his actions on "someone" "changing the playbook" in "Sharp Teeth." No, Dean, it was you and your choices... except Dean doesn't get that kind of lecture even when he does show hubris- except when that lecture is inaccurate and later disproved - because in my opinion, the show lately doesn't generally paint Dean's hubris as what it actually is. Instead it is usually justified. I would use making the deal to begin with as an example - which even though it was framed in the light that Dean was giving up his life to save Sam, was also referenced by Dean as he thought that he was "entitled" to make that decision, and told Sam "don't be mad at me" - but back then this was not shown to be an entirely noble thing, and we saw the effects on Sam. Similarly even though Dean's hubris that his way was the only way - even over-riding Nancy's own choice - in "Jus In Bello" was originally rewarded, there were potential repercussions later. (I say potential because we don't know what would have really happened had they gone along with the original plan of doing the spell.) Lately though, there are less and less repercussions when Dean shows hubris of his own. With Gadreel, for example, the effects were later downplayed and everything was shifted over to Sam just being "mean to Dean" in not being understanding enough concerning what Dean did for him. And similarly Dean's decision to take the mark of Cain, and the arrogance he showed while he had it had a few negative repercussion, but nothing on the level of starting an apocalypse... and it actually aided in stopping one. And then there was killing Death - which was presumptive in my opinion, and as of yet, entirely without negative repercussions. 6 Link to comment
cavelupum May 11, 2018 Share May 11, 2018 @AwesomO4000, I wish I could like your post more than once. There are few things I grow more tired of than the oversimplified reduction of Sam to “arrogant hubris machine” and Dean to “self-sacrificing hero with low self-esteem.” The brothers are layered, multifaceted characters who both have displayed arrogance and low self-worth at various times. As an aside, it’s not evidence of hubris for a person to be the main character in their own dreamscape (pretty normal, actually?), and Dream!Mary said that Sam and Dean saved her. I think you have to be actively inclined to always believe the absolute worst of a character to think the dream sequence was just further proof of yet more arrogance rather than a deep-seated yearning for love and appreciation from the mother Sam was twice robbed of having a relationship with and a desire for everyone he loves to be happy, whole, and together. 9 Link to comment
Reganne May 12, 2018 Share May 12, 2018 I don't understand why they can't write Sam as an actual useful character this season instead of the screw up that they are portraying him as. He's suppose to be one of the heros and we are 13 seasons in and he is in his worst form yet. I don't get it. They have him making stupid decisions like forcing Lucifer to stay with AU Michael so that now AU Michael has easy access to their world. It's just stupid. So for the vast majority of the season he has been knocked out or kidnapped or what not and now near the end of it all, they decide not to knock him out only to have him make the biggest mistake ever. 1 Link to comment
cavelupum May 12, 2018 Share May 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Reganne said: I don't understand why they can't write Sam as an actual useful character this season instead of the screw up that they are portraying him as. He's suppose to be one of the heros and we are 13 seasons in and he is in his worst form yet. I don't get it. They have him making stupid decisions like forcing Lucifer to stay with AU Michael so that now AU Michael has easy access to their world. It's just stupid. So for the vast majority of the season he has been knocked out or kidnapped or what not and now near the end of it all, they decide not to knock him out only to have him make the biggest mistake ever. I didn’t even bother posting in the episode thread this week because I was too angry and didn’t want to subject anyone who enjoyed it to my negativity, haha. Seeing Sam prevent Lucifer from going through the rift should have been immensely satisfying to this viewer, but I knew — and I mean KNEW, the very second it happened — that the narrative was going to punish him for his decision. The outcome was completely predictable. Sure enough, what could easily have been a swift and unceremonious end at a furious AU!Michael’s hands turned instead into yet another way of making Sam out to be a screwup. Every significant choice Sam makes is Wrong and/or has disastrous consequences so I’m not even surprised anymore, but the real treat has been slogging through numerous comments (on other sites, not here, thank goodness) about how mean and awful that no-good bastard Sam is for ruining poor woobie Lucifer’s shot at redemption and bonding with his son. :) :) :) Between the end of 13.22 and the finale promo, Spoiler which makes it seem like Dean or someone wearing Dean will be the one to go toe-to-toe with Lucifer while Sam is huddled next to Jack on the sidelines, it sure is great to be a Sam fan right now, let me tell you. If this is what preferential treatment by the writers looks like, for the love of all things good in this world, please give it to another character. 1 Link to comment
Aeryn13 May 12, 2018 Share May 12, 2018 Quote Sure enough, what could easily have been a swift and unceremonious end at a furious AU!Michael’s hands turned instead into yet another way of making Sam out to be a screwup. The assumption that Michael would make quick work of Lucifer was a sound one. Unless you live outside the show and just know how much the writers are in love with Lucifer. IMO the same thing happened which happened in episode 21. It was Sam-positive - until it turned into the Lucifer-wonder-hour and then Sam was as important as a hole in the ground. I can even remember a recent clip where one half of BuckLemming says how much they love writing for Lucifer. And of course Singer and Dabb sang the same tune in the producer`s preview. So I don`t even think that was meant to be taken as a Sam-screw-up moment in that it was truly intentional, it just didn`t matter to their Lucifer-loving writer brains. Quote but the real treat has been slogging through numerous comments (on other sites, not here, thank goodness) about how mean and awful that no-good bastard Sam is for ruining poor woobie Lucifer’s shot at redemption and bonding with his son. :) :) :) I know, Lucifer has actual tumblr-fangirls. A lot of them even Samifer-shippers who are angry with Sam right now. It`s the same whenever Dean is "mean" to Cas with a specific Destiel-crowd. Dean is an utter monster then. Mark Pellegrino also has giggling fangirls at conventions teehe-ing when they asked who topped in the cage. The latest episode had Lucifer giving the single tear to Gabriel`s mean, mean accusation and calling him "cancer". I knew just then that the woobieness would be off the charts. 4 Link to comment
Reganne May 12, 2018 Share May 12, 2018 2 hours ago, cavelupum said: Seeing Sam prevent Lucifer from going through the rift should have been immensely satisfying to this viewer, but I knew — and I mean KNEW, the very second it happened — that the narrative was going to punish him for his decision. The outcome was completely predictable. Sure enough, what could easily have been a swift and unceremonious end at a furious AU!Michael’s hands turned instead into yet another way of making Sam out to be a screwup. Every significant choice Sam makes is Wrong and/or has disastrous consequences so I’m not even surprised anymore, but the real treat has been slogging through numerous comments (on other sites, not here, thank goodness) about how mean and awful that no-good bastard Sam is for ruining poor woobie Lucifer’s shot at redemption and bonding with his son. :) :) :) Between the end of 13.22 and the finale promo, Reveal hidden contents which makes it seem like Dean or someone wearing Dean will be the one to go toe-to-toe with Lucifer while Sam is huddled next to Jack on the sidelines, it sure is great to be a Sam fan right now, let me tell you. If this is what preferential treatment by the writers looks like, for the love of all things good in this world, please give it to another character. I don't have a problem with Sam wanting to leaving Lucifer in the rift and I actually still enjoy Lucifer. With all that Lucifer has put Sam through, I think he's justified. I just hate the way they did it and it being like a screw up. 1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said: I can even remember a recent clip where one half of BuckLemming says how much they love writing for Lucifer. And of course Singer and Dabb sang the same tune in the producer`s preview. So I don`t even think that was meant to be taken as a Sam-screw-up moment in that it was truly intentional, it just didn`t matter to their Lucifer-loving writer brains. I know, Lucifer has actual tumblr-fangirls. A lot of them even Samifer-shippers who are angry with Sam right now. It`s the same whenever Dean is "mean" to Cas with a specific Destiel-crowd. Dean is an utter monster then. Mark Pellegrino also has giggling fangirls at conventions teehe-ing when they asked who topped in the cage. The latest episode had Lucifer giving the single tear to Gabriel`s mean, mean accusation and calling him "cancer". I knew just then that the woobieness would be off the charts. To me it doesn't matter what the intention is. It's how it comes across onscreen with how it plays out. I also don't understand why people would be angry with Sam but seem to have no problem with everything Lucifer has done to Sam and Dean and everyone else. 1 Link to comment
Aeryn13 May 12, 2018 Share May 12, 2018 Quote To me it doesn't matter what the intention is. It's how it comes across onscreen with how it plays out. I can totally get that. Quote I also don't understand why people would be angry with Sam but seem to have no problem with everything Lucifer has done to Sam and Dean and everyone else. The ones I`ve seen it from are bonafide Lucifer-fangirls, over every other character. They bought Lucifer`s woobie act hook, line and sinker and think it was so mean to keep him from his redemption. Because of that Lucifer`s previous act need to be forgiven and everyone just has to get over it. In another fandom there are legit articles on how the villain is such a poor conflicted woobie who was just abused and had no choice but turn to genocide. And his parents who did many heroic things are garbage. Their abuse? Trying to have careers and not staying home 24/7 with their child. There are excuses for everything. Link to comment
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