S01.E13: Three Sentences

[SlackerInc]

4 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

 

5 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

Anyone who infers in any way that your participation in a sexual encounter is not your choice, that it's "inevitable" --- STAY AWAY!

I agree with that but I think the writers' intent was to suggest Kate *is* a little interested and Duke sees that, not that he's going to assault her.

Whoa...what you quoted was not me!  Looks like something I quoted and responded to.  (I'm actually more on your side in this debate.)

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

Whoa...what you quoted was not me!  Looks like something I quoted and responded to.  (I'm actually more on your side in this debate.)

I edited my post so your name is off that post.  I knew it wasn't you, though!  I think the software sometimes gets the wrong names when you do multi-quote.

[Clanstarling]

On 1/26/2017 at 9:49 AM, Amy88888 said:

I've been to a memorial service where cremains (sorry, I hate that word too) were buried. So that actually happens.

Both my parents ashes were buried. At the time, the only option at the veteran's cemetery was burial. They were buried in the same teeny grave. Being practical, I chose urns that could be stacked easily. And yes, the word cremains is awful - too freaking cutesy.

The wierd/amusing thing with my father's ashes and urn, is that he had full military honors - which doesn't work quite as well when there's only a little urn instead of a big casket to drape the flag over.

On 1/26/2017 at 10:58 AM, Mrs. DuRona said:

My 4th grade teacher (in the mid-80s) still had her 60s beehive hairdo.  For some people, they stick with what works.  

Heck, I worked with a woman who retired just last year, and she still had her beehive.

On 1/26/2017 at 0:25 PM, MsChicklet said:

I don't know if Horse Guy fell for Kate. More like he's targeted her. He's been there a while, he probably recognizes those who aren't fully on-board with the place, and hits them when and where they're vulnerable. He raised a lot of red flags for me. He came across as an arrogant prick, probably a Chubby Chaser, who sees himself as the Fat Whisperer. She's a conquest.

This. As a predator, he's set himself up for an endless supply of targets.

On 1/27/2017 at 2:26 PM, SuzyLee said:

I think that's a good rule.  Same deal with valentines distributed on school property.  There should never be that poor little kid with no valentines.  

Actually, I hated the valentines rule when I was a kid. Because although everyone got valentines, the kids generally gave special ones to their close friends. So if you went through your valentines and only saw the basic ones - it was pretty much the same as having no valentines.

[PRgal]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Both my parents ashes were buried. At the time, the only option at the veteran's cemetery was burial. They were buried in the same teeny grave. Being practical, I chose urns that could be stacked easily. And yes, the word cremains is awful - too freaking cutesy.

The wierd/amusing thing with my father's ashes and urn, is that he had full military honors - which doesn't work quite as well when there's only a little urn instead of a big casket to drape the flag over.

Heck, I worked with a woman who retired just last year, and she still had her beehive.

Whoa!!  Was she well into her 70s?  Otherwise, she must have had the same hair since she was 14 or 15! 

Edited January 29, 2017 by PRgal

[Clanstarling]

43 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Whoa!!  Was she well into her 70s?  Otherwise, she must have had the same hair since she was 14 or 15! 

Nope. She must have imprinted in her teens. That last generation of girls who had beehives in their yearbook pictures, I guess.

[DrSpaceman73]

7 hours ago, SueB said:

The doctor described it as "Total Immersion".  I'm sure the pamphlet or website said it was a total-person concept. Mind/body.  

Honestly, if she's going to lose the weight, this is EXACTLY the camp she needs.  She needs to figure out WHY she spiraled into her current medical state.  What triggers her.  They talked about mindfulness.  Most health care experts will tell you this is essential for successful weight loss.  It means eating at the kitchen table vice in front of the computer.  In front of the computer is mindless eating -- you eat a whole bag of chips without noticing.  Mindfulness means you eat the food deliberately.  It's a truly different experience.  

They have a gym.  She can do all that.  But they are working on getting her to see the big picture -- what drives her eating behavior.  This is not just about calories in versus calories out.  That's a very 80's/90's failed approach.  It may work for the modestly overweight crowd.  Not for people like Kate.  

 

If they actually did some psychologic interviews and discussion and went in depth into their issues I would agree with you.  It was her first day there, if that was the plan it seems there would be an intake interview, review of her problems and issues, discussion of her goals, etc.  That did not appear to be what this involved though.  It was more beating some sticks and meditating, hoping that they would miraculously come to some revelation via internalized self reflection, which seems like a long shot for most of them.  that is the part I meant where they can do that themselves.  Oh and lets not forget about the bird watching, I am sure that helps.

And while I realize its not all calories in, calories out and focus on numbers, that is still a LARGE part of what has to happen for them to actually lose weight.  It has to be at least part of the process.  So far that has not been any of the process, from what I've seen

Again I know she just got there, but still seems like a rather lame and half hearted effort to help these patients so far.  Especially when it seems one of the workers there is harassing her and making inappropriate sexual advances. 

[topanga]

On 1/27/2017 at 0:08 AM, SueB said:

Regarding Kate's focus on weight:
- Overshare time: My mother took me to a psychologist at age 8 to have me hypnotized so I wouldn't eat so much.  So, I project ALL OVER Kate.  She is me.  And my "baby fat" was a bread addiction that my loving Daddy would feed.  He hung the moon for me and died when I was 12.  See how EASY it is for me to project onto Kate?  Which leads me to the following: Not a day goes by that isn't about my weight.  I'm working and highly successful in my job but my weight dominates my existence.  I'm a woman, I multi-task easily.  And if I'm not ACTIVELY invested in my weight situation, I'm actively avoiding it.  So, no. If Kate's story is remotely realistic, one break-through at the camp is not going to be "it".  And her weight will dominate her existence for the rest of her life.  Even if she loses the bulk of the weight, she will never be free of the impact her relationship with food has on her existence.  It's something they teach you at those $10,000/month camps.  Trust me. 

I appreciate your sharing, Sueb. You've articulated this issue better than I ever could. I'm not as overweight as Kate, but I've struggled with weight most of my life. And when you're overweight, your body image and your weight play a constant role in your thoughts and perceptions. That guy didn't give me a second glance. Is it my weight? I didn't get that job. Is it my weight? Are these my real friends, or do they laugh at my weight behind my back? 

I also understand that for the sake of the viewer, it would be nice to have Kate delve more into other aspects of her life: her job (but she doesn't have one now, right?), her relationship with her mother, her relationship with her brothers. Was there ever tension between her and Kevin or her and Randall? I'd like to know this. 

Or maybe she can make a speech--this show loves to make speeches--about how her weight does affect every aspect of her life. It would make her seem less one-dimensional. 

[possibilities]

RE Kate's breakthrough: I think when you're close to breaking, anything can set it off. No one else in the room was having the kind of release she was, so I don't think they were implying that all it took was a little drumming and voila!

I took that particular class as a "loosening up and getting going" kind of thing. It was the first thing they did aftger arriving, and she was supposed to be there for a month, so I am thinking they didn't expect her to have a huge transformation in the first hour.

Also, anyone who's there has already tried the calorie watching and exercising stuff, so they don't have to teach that primarily. They need to have something else because people like Kate have already been there and done that.

Whether the program is any good or not, is another question. But either way, I'm not surprised it's different than what Kate and most people have already tried, because if the obvious worked for them, they wouldn't be there in the first place.

Also, for tv purposes, we've already seen her exercising and counting calories, and they needed to upset her and send her into the stables to be negged by stabledick. Hence the hokey class and the twist of it actually pushing her over the edge.

[SueB]

47 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

 

If they actually did some psychologic interviews and discussion and went in depth into their issues I would agree with you.  It was her first day there, if that was the plan it seems there would be an intake interview, review of her problems and issues, discussion of her goals, etc.  That did not appear to be what this involved though.  It was more beating some sticks and meditating, hoping that they would miraculously come to some revelation via internalized self reflection, which seems like a long shot for most of them.  that is the part I meant where they can do that themselves.  Oh and lets not forget about the bird watching, I am sure that helps.

And while I realize its not all calories in, calories out and focus on numbers, that is still a LARGE part of what has to happen for them to actually lose weight.  It has to be at least part of the process.  So far that has not been any of the process, from what I've seen

Again I know she just got there, but still seems like a rather lame and half hearted effort to help these patients so far.  Especially when it seems one of the workers there is harassing her and making inappropriate sexual advances. 

 

Presuming it's modelled off of traditional whole mind/body places:
1. The intake eval by a therapist/psychiatrist happens within the first 3 days but not necessarily on Day 1.  There's also a complete medical workup with labs, fitness eval with a trainer, etc...  But not all on Day 1. It's spaced out over 3 or 4 days. 
2. There are tons of classes; exercise, nutrition, behavior.  It's a well-rounded experience. We saw snippets which emphasized it was completely different than she expected.  Yet on Day 1 she actually had an "Ah-HA" moment.  That's pretty big.  But Kate is a smart girl. I'm not surprised that when she started to focus on her feelings about her weight, in a therapeutic setting, the anger came out.
3. It isn't "The Biggest Loser". Long term success requires major lifestyle changes.  Rapid weight loss for a month would not be maintainable.  

And yes, horse-guy should be reported for sexual harassment.  

[bros402]

13 hours ago, Sake614 said:

At least. More like 8 

I was going by google's estimate - it said something like 5 hours 49 minutes - straight shot from Pittsburgh to NYC.

Then there's the traffic in manhattan.

[chocolatine]

Rebecca and Miguel definitely don't live in Pittsburgh anymore, because after Kate's gastric bypass consultation on Christmas Eve, Kate and Rebecca stopped by Rebecca and Miguel's house before going to Randall's for dinner. They must be not as close to the city as Randall, hence them stoping by on their way to see Hamilton, but probably no more than an hour away from Randall's.

I have a feeling that after Jack's death there was a Pearson mass exodus from Pittsburgh. It's quite likely that all three kids moved away for college, and with nothing else to tie them to the city I can see Rebecca and Miguel also wanting a fresh start. Or maybe Miguel was offered a job relocation. 

Edited January 29, 2017 by chocolatine

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, possibilities said:

RE Kate's breakthrough: I think when you're close to breaking, anything can set it off. No one else in the room was having the kind of release she was, so I don't think they were implying that all it took was a little drumming and voila!

I took that particular class as a "loosening up and getting going" kind of thing. It was the first thing they did aftger arriving, and she was supposed to be there for a month, so I am thinking they didn't expect her to have a huge transformation in the first hour.

Also, anyone who's there has already tried the calorie watching and exercising stuff, so they don't have to teach that primarily. They need to have something else because people like Kate have already been there and done that.

Whether the program is any good or not, is another question. But either way, I'm not surprised it's different than what Kate and most people have already tried, because if the obvious worked for them, they wouldn't be there in the first place.

Also, for tv purposes, we've already seen her exercising and counting calories, and they needed to upset her and send her into the stables to be negged by stabledick. Hence the hokey class and the twist of it actually pushing her over the edge.

I agree with you - the times I've broken down like Kate (in private, though) - I had been struggling and the breakdown was triggered by something almost trivial. But also - music and movement can get to places our minds can't/won't, particularly drumming (I've experienced that too).

Anyone whose life has been defined by weight is not at all ignorant of food choices, empty calories, or the value of exercise.  Knowledge is not the same thing as action - for anyone, not just those with food issues. There are lots of things most of us know we shouldn't do, and still do them. Lots of things we know are better for us, and still, we don't choose them. The assumption by some that overweight people don't know what or how to choose is infuriating and condescending even when it's meant kindly.

[Tiger]

15 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I agree with you - the times I've broken down like Kate (in private, though) - I had been struggling and the breakdown was triggered by something almost trivial. But also - music and movement can get to places our minds can't/won't, particularly drumming (I've experienced that too).

Anyone whose life has been defined by weight is not at all ignorant of food choices, empty calories, or the value of exercise.  Knowledge is not the same thing as action - for anyone, not just those with food issues. There are lots of things most of us know we shouldn't do, and still do them. Lots of things we know are better for us, and still, we don't choose them. The assumption by some that overweight people don't know what or how to choose is infuriating and condescending even when it's meant kindly.

While I hope they dig deep into Kate's psychological issues centering on Jack's death, at a certain point they need to verbalize on-screen that at the end of the day people simply have different metabolisms and body types.  

[NutMeg]

At the funeral scene, while the boys looked like their teenage self (although I'm not sure about Randall, he looked more now Randall), there was a profile of Kate that looked like now Kate. Anyone else got that impression? It felt like TBTB were trying to blur the lines there, but that profile (just the face) of Kate is what I remember, which is why I was I was surprised to read everyone saw the kids in their teens. I also think they were in their teens, and maybe I saw wrong, anyway it's not a big deal but because I thought I saw something different I wanted to mention it here.  

[Guest]

I'm not sure if comments the actors made in the media are considered spoilers or not so I'll hide this.  But from what Milo said in interviews, my impression was the actor playing Kate at the funeral 

Spoiler

wasn't Metz.  It was the teen actor's name he mentioned, I think.  

To me, the person playing Kate did look a bit like Kate in profile but also very short and not nearly as heavy.  

 

10 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Rebecca and Miguel definitely don't live in Pittsburgh anymore, because after Kate's gastric bypass consultation on Christmas Eve, Kate and Rebecca stopped by Rebecca and Miguel's house before going to Randall's for dinner.

I was thinking about Randall stopping there too that day he refused to hug Rebecca but that was on the way home from the cabin, which also could be anywhere, so that doesn't help much.  But I compared the view from the front door of that house to the one of the 1980 house and it's different.  So I don't think they filmed the two scenes on the same set or location.  Which doesn't mean much.  But if they intend for Miguel and Rebecca to be living in the 1980 house it'd be easy enough to use the same set.  

Plus wouldn't it be odd for Miguel to move into the house Jack built?  I guess there are plenty of circumstances where it wouldn't be that odd, though.  

[SlackerInc]

18 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Actually, I hated the valentines rule when I was a kid. Because although everyone got valentines, the kids generally gave special ones to their close friends. So if you went through your valentines and only saw the basic ones - it was pretty much the same as having no valentines.

But how is that actually worse than if there were no rule?

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

The assumption by some that overweight people don't know what or how to choose is infuriating and condescending even when it's meant kindly.

I read a lot about obesity and nutrition (most likely due to my having struggled with my weight all my life), and the impression I get from the social science research is that there are a lot of overweight people who don't really understand nutrition very well.  Probably that's less common for someone extremely obese with a college education (which I think describes Kate?), but the "poorly educated" can be quite obese and still not really know what they ought to be eating.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, SlackerInc said:

But how is that actually worse than if there were no rule?

Worse, perhaps not. But in effect, in my experience, it made little difference. The popular kids received customized, sometimes fancy, valentines from their admirers, while the less popular received only the dime a dozen bare minimum valentines. So opening up your valentine box and seeing only the plain ones was a clear a message as getting none at all.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Clanstarling

[QueBueno]

Regarding Kate's not seeming to have or much need a job: one plausible reason could be that if Jack died in an industrial accident, a car accident or some other situation where someone was at fault, the kids got a settlement.  Maybe not a large amount to Kevin and Randall with their large incomes, and not enough that Kate never had to work again, but enough to keep her solvent inbetween jobs.

Regarding Kate's weight: a reason that one sibling can be heavy and the others slim could be a trauma that the other siblings didn't experience.  I was normal weight until around the age of two; my younger sister never gained weight.  It wasn't until about ten years ago (I'm in my fifties) that I started piecing together my quirks and my weight gain and I realized what probably happened, and which my sister was spared from because we moved out of state.  I hope it's nothing like that with sweet little Kate.

[Crs97]

 Regarding nutrition and calories, I think the show has made it clear that is not Kate's problem.  She has been shown making healthier meals (don't get me started on how horrible they sounded because tv always makes clear that healthy food is horrible, but I digress) and the scene when she snuck the donuts spoke volumes; her resignation and inner loathing made clear she wasn't confused about its effects).

[KaveDweller]

4 hours ago, NutMeg said:

At the funeral scene, while the boys looked like their teenage self (although I'm not sure about Randall, he looked more now Randall), there was a profile of Kate that looked like now Kate. Anyone else got that impression? It felt like TBTB were trying to blur the lines there, but that profile (just the face) of Kate is what I remember, which is why I was I was surprised to read everyone saw the kids in their teens. I also think they were in their teens, and maybe I saw wrong, anyway it's not a big deal but because I thought I saw something different I wanted to mention it here.  

I thought the actors playing Randall and Kevin didn't look like the adult actors, but the actor playing Kate did. Which confused me. Maybe the casting is just that good on Kate though.

[SlackerInc]

1 hour ago, Crs97 said:

 Regarding nutrition and calories, I think the show has made it clear that is not Kate's problem.

I don't think that's true at all.  Remember the pilot?  She had tons of junk food in her fridge (which she ultimately threw away and then put dog poop on top of to discourage her from digging it out of the trash) and nevertheless even put up Post-it notes in the fridge reminding herself not to scarf down the birthday cake before the party!

[leighdear]

I thought Duke was amusing.   Maybe a little heavy handed, but not at all threatening or harassing in my view.   And Kate could have walked away from him the second she felt annoyed.  

She kept going back back to the stables, he didn't pursue her.  He was smiling when he said "This is happening" and it looked to me like she was smiling a little when she turned away & said "No it's not".    I also thought he was cute.  Different strokes.  

[Tiger]

34 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

I thought the actors playing Randall and Kevin didn't look like the adult actors, but the actor playing Kate did. Which confused me. Maybe the casting is just that good on Kate though.

I think did a great job with both the kid and teen, especially the teen, actors looking they could legitimately grow up to look like Chrissy.

But neither the kid nor teen actors for Randall and Kevin look at all like they could grow up to look like Sterling and Justin.  

Teen Randall especially was a major misfire in the casting looks department.  

That said, I also think the younger Kate actresses are much stronger than the younger Randall and Kevin actors.  

[Runningwild]

What is an egg cream? Is that a Philly thing?

[Crs97]

2 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

 

4 hours ago, Crs97 said:

 Regarding nutrition and calories, I think the show has made it clear that is not Kate's problem.

I don't think that's true at all.  Remember the pilot?  She had tons of junk food in her fridge (which she ultimately threw away and then put dog poop on top of to discourage her from digging it out of the trash) and nevertheless even put up Post-it notes in the fridge reminding herself not to scarf down the birthday cake before the party!

 

My point (that I didn't articulate well) is that Kate knows intellectually what she should and shouldn't eat.  She knows that the food shown in her fridge in the pilot episode was junk food.  Her issues are beyond just learning nutrition facts.

[SlackerInc]

I do think she needs help with how to select and prepare food that is good for you and good tasting though.

[OtterMommy]

4 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

I do think she needs help with how to select and prepare food that is good for you and good tasting though.

I don't think that's it...there are 2 things going on.  First of all, Kate has a belief that "healthy" food is not "delicious" food.  We saw that in every sneer she made about kale and what not--and Toby reinforced this at every turn (although he is not the cause of it).  She is still in the "pizza GOOD, salad YUCK" mode.  The second problem is that, when the stress hits a certain mark, her reaction is to reach for the donuts.  Kate manages her stress with food....and that is not something that you can just decide to stop doing.

Horse Dick aside, this camp is probably just what Kate needs to start tackling the mental side of things, even if she opts to have the surgery after all.  I agree that Kate *knows* all about nutrition, she has mental roadblocks set up that keep her from accepting it. Eating clean can be the tastiest thing on the planet, but Kate is still not going to like it because it is "diet food" and "diet food" doesn't taste good (or so she believes) and, when push comes to shove, she's not going to be grabbing the bag of baby carrots.

[CofCinci]

3 hours ago, leighdear said:

I thought Duke was amusing.   Maybe a little heavy handed, but not at all threatening or harassing in my view.   And Kate could have walked away from him the second she felt annoyed.  

She kept going back back to the stables, he didn't pursue her.  He was smiling when he said "This is happening" and it looked to me like she was smiling a little when she turned away & said "No it's not".    I also thought he was cute.  Different strokes.  

Agreed.  In their final scene together, she sought him out.  Obnoxious flirting isn't sexual harassment.  He's cocky.  We aren't used to seeing cocky fat men flirt on television.  He's like Barney on HIMYM mixed with Barney from Barney.  He stated that she was sexy and invited her to his cabin -- WHEN SHE WAS READY.

Quote

(horse whinnies)

You're still here.

I know what you were doing before, with the whole grabbing my phone and being a dick thing. You were being hard on me so I would push myself. And I think I do I need to deal with the stuff that I've been avoiding. You know, see what's behind the weight. So... thanks. For being a dick. I needed it.

Like I said, your voice was annoying my horses. That's why I grabbed it. And I wasn't being a dick. I am a dick. Oh. That said... ... I'm glad you're staying. You see, 'cause I happen to think that you are as sexy as hell. And I'm in cabin 13. When you're ready.

No, thanks.

No, you don't see... See, you don't see it yet. But this? This is happening.

Oh, but it's not.

Oh, but it is.

N-no, it's not.

Oh... (sighs)

 

Edited January 30, 2017 by CofCinci

[Clanstarling]

29 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

I don't think that's it...there are 2 things going on.  First of all, Kate has a belief that "healthy" food is not "delicious" food.  We saw that in every sneer she made about kale and what not--and Toby reinforced this at every turn (although he is not the cause of it).  She is still in the "pizza GOOD, salad YUCK" mode.  The second problem is that, when the stress hits a certain mark, her reaction is to reach for the donuts.  Kate manages her stress with food....and that is not something that you can just decide to stop doing.

Horse Dick aside, this camp is probably just what Kate needs to start tackling the mental side of things, even if she opts to have the surgery after all.  I agree that Kate *knows* all about nutrition, she has mental roadblocks set up that keep her from accepting it. Eating clean can be the tastiest thing on the planet, but Kate is still not going to like it because it is "diet food" and "diet food" doesn't taste good (or so she believes) and, when push comes to shove, she's not going to be grabbing the bag of baby carrots.

All excellent points. I remember hearing Valerie Harper talk about her weight loss back in the late 70's (I think), and all she would eat was baked chicken breasts and steamed broccoli. I could never imagine eating that limited (and flavorless) of a diet.

I started down the right path when I started making my own healthy food from scratch. For me, spices and a variety of flavors is key. I love salads, especially now that I make my own fresh dressing. It mitigates those times, when despite everything, I grab for the comfort food to sooth myself.

If I could afford a camp like that - I'd go. If only to get away from everything for awhile.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Dowel Jones]

On 1/28/2017 at 7:54 AM, luna1122 said:

those of you over fifty with no wrinkles, sags or grey hair: I hate you.

I am rather fortunate in that, at age 62, I don't have wrinkles.  Instead, I have a (ahem) lived-in face.  :)

[RachelKM]

On 1/27/2017 at 8:56 AM, SlackerInc said:

.... Now, that said: this is not a dealbreaker.  I'm not going to denounce the show and stop watching as a result of this.  But we are here to chew the fat over this episode, and that's what I'm doing.

I'm a few years older than the "Big 3" (I had my driver's license by the time they had their tenth birthday), but while I don't remember The Princess Bride at all from the year it came out in theatres (1987), by a couple years later (circa 1989, I'm pretty sure) there were theatre/drama kids who were totally into it and would watch it over and over on VHS and try to get everyone they knew to do the same.

Exactly.  Whereas by the '80s, people might show up to such a party in attire and hair from any Beatles era and no one would bat an eye.  But while they were still megastars, their most current look is what's going to represent them.

Sure, but see above.  She's not the megastar she was then.  And this party didn't take place in the '80s, which is actually important.  Even though decade transitions are arbitrary, I remember people being pretty affected by them--at least from '89 to '90 and '99 to '00 (the change from '09 to '10 is a sort of outlier from the pattern that doesn't seem to psychologically work the same).  When we hit 1990, my friends and I all felt the '80s was so over.  Yet it was still too close to be something to get retro and nostalgic about.  Early '80s style, at that point, was just embarrassing.

All of this.  I was 10 in 87 and have no recollection of the theatrical release of the Princess Bride (and I'm a movie nerd, so that says a lot, I remember the theatrical release of Labyrinth and I didn't even get to see it in the theater).  That said, I either saw it on HBO or rented it at home shortly after and thereafter watched it fairly regularly. By the time I was 12, I had it memorized as did several of my friends.  I don't know if 9/10 year olds were doing the same, but I wouldn't be surprised.

I would, however, be very surprised at a 10 year old being fully aware of, much less interested in emulating, the Like a Virgin look in 1990.  As you say, it was too old to be in and too young to be nostalgic.  It takes a while for passé to transition into retro, generally at least a decade.   And even then, 10 year olds are rarely intentionally retro, much less with things from when they were 4 or 5.

The Like a Prayer era would be the primary reference for kids that age, they might be familiar with True Blue. While I also don't think the Like a Prayer/Vogue looks were at all age appropriate and would not be surprised that a parent nixed the idea for a party, I would be stunned if a 10 year old who loved Madonna in 1990 would want a party with the tulle and gloves, more so if her friends would be equally pleased.  

All that said, an adult favoring a hair cut that is out of date, but which she likes, is less distracting to me.

Edited January 30, 2017 by RachelKM

[SueB]

1 hour ago, OtterMommy said:

I don't think that's it...there are 2 things going on.  First of all, Kate has a belief that "healthy" food is not "delicious" food.  We saw that in every sneer she made about kale and what not--and Toby reinforced this at every turn (although he is not the cause of it).  She is still in the "pizza GOOD, salad YUCK" mode.  The second problem is that, when the stress hits a certain mark, her reaction is to reach for the donuts.  Kate manages her stress with food....and that is not something that you can just decide to stop doing.

Horse Dick aside, this camp is probably just what Kate needs to start tackling the mental side of things, even if she opts to have the surgery after all.  I agree that Kate *knows* all about nutrition, she has mental roadblocks set up that keep her from accepting it. Eating clean can be the tastiest thing on the planet, but Kate is still not going to like it because it is "diet food" and "diet food" doesn't taste good (or so she believes) and, when push comes to shove, she's not going to be grabbing the bag of baby carrots.

 

I'm officially calling the character Horse Dick from now on.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Runningwild said:

What is an egg cream? Is that a Philly thing?

I'm no expert but I spent two years there in the late 90s and have never heard of it.  But the only specialty 'Philly foods' I recall are cheese steaks and hoagies.  And Yuengling.  

I wonder why William even wanted one.   Maybe it was a NYC thing?  (I spent time there, too, and never heard of it there, either.)  

[kat165]

Egg cream, like someone mentioned several pages back, is a NYC thing. But I live
in northern Jersey (NYC 15-20 min away) and am very familiar with them.

[Emily Thrace]

8 hours ago, QueBueno said:

Regarding Kate's not seeming to have or much need a job: one plausible reason could be that if Jack died in an industrial accident, a car accident or some other situation where someone was at fault, the kids got a settlement.  Maybe not a large amount to Kevin and Randall with their large incomes, and not enough that Kate never had to work again, but enough to keep her solvent inbetween jobs.

Its also possible she simply has savings, she is 36 and I bet Kevin paid her well. Or if she owns her house in LA she could be renting it out that might be covering her expenses since she's living at her moms in Jersey.

[SlackerInc]

@RachelKM, thanks for the backup!

I have never had an egg cream, but I have heard of them.

Whoever came up with "Horse Dick" is very clever.

I still think Kate was eating diet food that was actually unappetizing, and has yet to learn how "eating clean" can indeed actually be delicious.  But since we can't taste the food ourselves, there is no way to know, unless she takes a cooking class at camp and finds the tastes a revelation.

[LisaM]

A month at a specialty camp in the Adirondacks is going to cost a lot of money. I wish that there was at least a throwaway line as to how Kate is affording it. I'm sure it is not covered by any kind of insurance.

[PRgal]

I would assume Kate's first reference to Madonna likely came from the Material Girl video (it was for me, anyway).  I distinctly recall my grandmother talking about how the video was directly off of  "Diamonds are a Girl's Best Friend."  This was very likely my grandmother's ONLY Madonna reference! 

[DrSpaceman73]

On ‎1‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 11:59 PM, SueB said:

Presuming it's modelled off of traditional whole mind/body places:
1. The intake eval by a therapist/psychiatrist happens within the first 3 days but not necessarily on Day 1.  There's also a complete medical workup with labs, fitness eval with a trainer, etc...  But not all on Day 1. It's spaced out over 3 or 4 days. 
2. There are tons of classes; exercise, nutrition, behavior.  It's a well-rounded experience. We saw snippets which emphasized it was completely different than she expected.  Yet on Day 1 she actually had an "Ah-HA" moment.  That's pretty big.  But Kate is a smart girl. I'm not surprised that when she started to focus on her feelings about her weight, in a therapeutic setting, the anger came out.
3. It isn't "The Biggest Loser". Long term success requires major lifestyle changes.  Rapid weight loss for a month would not be maintainable.  

And yes, horse-guy should be reported for sexual harassment.  

 

Well its fiction, so they wrote in the "Ah-HA" moment.  that doesn't mean its realistic that it would happen that way.

And what was the instructors reaction to her when she had such a moment?  Asks "Are you OK"?  Great job.  Anything else?

Maybe all you speak of is happening or will happen, but they didn't show any of it yet.  It was all meditating and meeting nature and then they implied a little bit of that would lead to some great revelation on day one about a problem she has struggled with for decades, which to me just seems unrealistic. 

I know The Biggest Loser is unrealistic, not what it should be or what I am suggesting.  Heck even the way they show The Biggest Loser on TV is not how it happens. 

But this I found too far in the other extreme.  As if just a little bit of self reflection and calm is all it takes to reach some big truth about their problem. 

And I suspect she is affording the camp is the same way her parents, with triplets, could somehow afford to send Randall to school :  "We'll work it out" is all they say and TV, then it never comes up again. 

[SlackerInc]

1 hour ago, PRgal said:

I would assume Kate's first reference to Madonna likely came from the Material Girl video (it was for me, anyway).

Are you Kate's age, though?  She would have been four when that video came out.  I am a huge music maven now, and have been since about age ten; but I was completely unaware of popular music until about the age of eight.  Over the years, I've found that the only people who have reported getting into it earlier were those who had either older siblings or sometimes parents who played it around the house (I had neither: I am the eldest child, and my parents played classical, jazz, or show tunes).

Not that the girls at the party looked anything like Madonna did in that video anyway.

[ClareWalks]

Hard to say why the girls all seemed to choose Material Girl Madonna as their costume inspiration. Maybe that was the easiest Madonna they could scrounge up, costume-wise. I know if I held a Madonna party today, there'd probably be a lot of diversity but I can just about guarantee there'd be no Current Madonna looks there. (Although last season on RuPaul's Drag Race they had a Madonna runway and half the bitches showed up in the same kimono, so YMMV.)

[PRgal]

25 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

Are you Kate's age, though?  She would have been four when that video came out.  I am a huge music maven now, and have been since about age ten; but I was completely unaware of popular music until about the age of eight.  Over the years, I've found that the only people who have reported getting into it earlier were those who had either older siblings or sometimes parents who played it around the house (I had neither: I am the eldest child, and my parents played classical, jazz, or show tunes).

Not that the girls at the party looked anything like Madonna did in that video anyway.

Yes, based on the characters' birthday, I'm 364 days older. The video was still cycling.  In any case, that's MY reference. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, SlackerInc said:

Not that the girls at the party looked anything like Madonna did in that video anyway.

Yeah, to me they looked like Lucky Star video Madonna, which was one her first hits and (to me) her most iconic look and the one most people go for when putting together a Madonna costume.  (And it's not really that bedazzled of a look so why Jack was up all night bedazzling accessories I wasn't sure but she did do some studs and such, so ok.  They did get the look pretty right-- with all the jewelry and crosses and mesh and hair bows and all, I thought.  I figured they just decided it'd be funny and lovable to make Jack use a bedazzler.)

[SlackerInc]

That's a good point! I guess they got it sort of blended in their minds with Michael Jackson's gloves from the same era (when Kate was still a toddler)? 

[Guest]

On ‎1‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 5:55 PM, Winston9-DT3 said:

Oh!  Maybe they can do a crossover with Netflix's The OA and raise Jack from the dead.  

At this point, I'd much rather see a love triangle of Miguel-Rebecca-resurrected Jack than StableStalker-Kate-Toby.

Heck, I'd rather see a Kevin-Beth-Randall love triangle than StableStalker-Kate-Toby.

[SueB]

40 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Yeah, to me they looked like Lucky Star video Madonna, which was one her first hits and (to me) her most iconic look and the one most people go for when putting together a Madonna costume.  (And it's not really that bedazzled of a look so why Jack was up all night bedazzling accessories I wasn't sure but she did do some studs and such, so ok.  They did get the look pretty right-- with all the jewelry and crosses and mesh and hair bows and all, I thought.  I figured they just decided it'd be funny and lovable to make Jack use a bedazzler.)

 

Weighing into the "what Madonna costumes", I'd say they did a good job of showing what a costumes a parent would send (in Aug 1990) their little girl in.  And they're more "homemade Madonna" than anything else.  Big Bow in hair, tuille, PEARLS, gloves (provided by Jack).  It's not very accurate of Material Girl or vogue, but it's accurate for 10 year olds and "grab what we can out of the closet plus the K-mart".  

[OtterMommy]

14 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

Whoever came up with "Horse Dick" is very clever.

I still think Kate was eating diet food that was actually unappetizing, and has yet to learn how "eating clean" can indeed actually be delicious.  But since we can't taste the food ourselves, there is no way to know, unless she takes a cooking class at camp and finds the tastes a revelation.

Re: Horse Dick.  Thank you, but I can't take too much credit.  He works with horses and he's a self-proclaimed Dick.  The name was just calling out to me.

I agree with you about the food--what we have seen her eat has been kale salads and very un-appetizing (judging by Toby's descriptions) breakfast foods.  I don't think this means that she doesn't understand nutrition--I think it means that she still has that wall up in her head between "good" foods and "bad" foods and, if a food tastes good, it must be "bad" (which is definitely not true, although I will admit that I tolerate kale at best...)

Edited January 30, 2017 by OtterMommy
Typo

[Guest]

I feel like the writers probably didn't put a ton of thought into Kate's food knowledge level.  They just decided to show dieting at its absolute worst-- eating only tasteless, dull food in tiny quantities AND the scale not budging.  Which is not realistic at all given Kate's weight, but whatever.   I think we've nearly all experienced a dieting plateau or very slow losses and horribly dull diets and men who seem to drop weight faster than we women, so they probably did strike some chords.

Since they had to make her diet fail to get her to the WLS doorstep, I guess it's as good a story as any.  I did think it was realistic that she binged on donuts when things went bad for her.   That's a big problem with diets that are too austere-- you feel too deprived and can't stick to them.  It is a tough line to walk-- making your eating satisfying enough you don't want to dive into the donuts but also light enough for weight loss or maintenance.  

Edited January 30, 2017 by Guest

[ClareWalks]

Yeah, Kate's idea of dieting is horribly depressing. I've had more success with 1) avoiding "trigger foods" that make me crave them more (like french fries and cupcakes), and 2) eating smaller portions of foods I actually like. But Kate's diet is very much what most people think of when they think of a diet.

I actually really liked the hippie yoga-mat drumming crap, as a personal trainer. I mean, it's totally crunchy and kinda cheesy as hell, but it would be a pretty effective way to get moving and burn calories and let out some energy and aggression without really noticing that you're "working out." Try taking a couple sticks and banging out a rhythm like that and you'll feel it pretty quickly. Pretty smart, IMO, to do a class like that with people who aren't accustomed to lots of exercise.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 1/28/2017 at 0:04 PM, Rockstar99435 said:

On 1/27/2017 at 9:52 PM, MaryPatShelby said:

I guess the invitation thing we've talked about makes sense, but otherwise?  The school does not get to dictate with whom my child spends his/her personal time, especially for something as special as a birthday party.  That would be my job as the parent, not the school's.

It's an anti-bullying thing. If a student invites every child in his/her class except one and then all the kids talk about how fun the party is going to be/was, it's a way to bully and isolate the uninvited child. The uninvited child's parents can use that as evidence that the school is supporting a bullying environment and sue the school. Schools are required to get involved with events that take place outside of school if they effect things that happen in school. (It's the same reason my school can suspend students who get into fights off school grounds on the weekends or get caught drinking/using drugs outside of school.)

As mentioned earlier, Randall is in a private school.  These are rules that the parents have agreed to abide by (even if Rebecca and Jack seemed oblivious) when they enrolled him.  I'm sure there was a book of school policies, including dress codes, etc.  If parents don't like the rules, they are free to 1) work to change them; 2) take their children out of the school.

23 hours ago, RachelKM said:

The Like a Prayer era would be the primary reference for kids that age, they might be familiar with True Blue. While I also don't think the Like a Prayer/Vogue looks were at all age appropriate and would not be surprised that a parent nixed the idea for a party, I would be stunned if a 10 year old who loved Madonna in 1990 would want a party with the tulle and gloves, more so if her friends would be equally pleased.  

Isn't that kind of the point?  Kate isn't cool enough to be aware that her classmates wouldn't be thrilled with a tulle and gloves Madonna party, perhaps preferring something edgier, or at least, a chance to mingle with the boys.  Kevin's friends would likely have been totally fine having a "boys only" party.  In retrospect, when Kate had her "girls only" party, Kevin should have had a playdate elsewhere, or hung out at Randall's party, and then had his party after Kate's was over.