S03.E09: The Present

[Lii]

3 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Anytime I hear "Philosopher's Stone," I think Fullmetal Alchemist. Biggest dumbass: Barry Allen or Edward Elric?

Given that Barry is a supposedly highly educated grown adult yet he consistently screws over more people on a larger scale than child OR teen Edward Elric... Then again, Barry never stupidly enabled magical child mutilation. 

Sooooo. Drunken Fool HR is something I never knew I needed until I got it.  I hope we get to see at least a tiny bit of his resultant hangover as well. 

[cambridgeguy]

I'm assuming the finale will be Barry, Wally, Jay, and possibly Jessie teaming up to take down Savitar since as presented there's no way any of them can take him down solo. 

If they really want to drive up the angst and show how much Barry has changed then Joe has to be the one who gets skewered by an evil speedster, except this time Barry won't sprint back in time to change things.  Being the adult doesn't work out well on CW shows (see Jonathan Kent, Moira Queen, etc.).

I guess they're assuming Flash viewers watched the rest of the crossover because otherwise it doesn't make sense for Cisco to go from hating Barry to being totally fine.

[LisaM]

I really liked this episode especially all things WestAllen - except for the future, of course. That was Oliver and Felicity's apartment, correct? 

Suspicious about Cecile's daughter who keeps popping up on the phone. 

I don't recall that Cisco and Dante had such a good relationship that Cisco would be mourning his late brother to the point that he now can't stand Barry. I thought that Dante always picked on Cisco? Perhaps I am remembering incorrectly.

I hope that Julian actually remains a good guy. Love John Wesley Shipp. OTOH, cannot stand HR. Bring back Harry! 

[maxineofarc]

I generally liked this episode. I enjoy a good old fashioned Christmas episode, so I liked the end scenes.

But if I didn't have some weird nitpicks I wouldn't be me or on previously.tv, so let's go!

A thing I literally yelled at my TV (I'm not proud): "Cisco, you dumbass!" This episode answered one question we've had: was Dante and Cisco's relationship so much better in this universe that it would drive his behavior over the season so far? Answer: eh, not really. I completely understand Cisco mourning what might have been, but it seemed SO OBVIOUS that fake-Dante was fake, I would have thought Cisco smarter than that. I kind of can't with this character this season.

HOWEVER, that scene then raised the point that it seems Savitar can latch onto people who are grieving and exploit that? Savitar needs to have the box open in order to appear in a particular dimension, at least for now. He can't open it himself. Barry said something about him finding people who can draw followers, but... people like Julian, who spends all day in a lab? Cisco, who... spends all day in a lab?

How old is Julian supposed to be? Savitar first calls to him when he's 20, he then goes and gets a doctorate in archaeology based on what we saw of his dissertation, he then spends however long looking for the stone, THEN flees to America and... becomes a forensic scientist specializing in metahumans? He'd need another degree for that, surely? Tom Felton is 29 but I'd buy him up through his 30s in this role. I really, really like him in this, by the way. He puts a lot of subtlety into what could go way over the top. I hope he sticks around a while.

Superficially: Loved Julian's little Christmas boutonniere. Candice Patton is very beautiful, but damn, I would definitely not have worn Iris's dress to a family Christmas party. Barry/Iris does not currently actively annoy me but wow I do NOT need to see them getting busy as I still find that whole relationship squicky. HR annoys me less. You can't just put somebody else's name on a lease.

Edited December 7, 2016 by maxineofarc

[RedVitC]

Some more thoughts:

The wallet things was funny and a minor callback to season 1 Christmas. Barry got Iris a replica of Iris' mother's wedding band and afterwards Iris was embarrassed about her own gift (My gift so sucks in comparison). It was a microscope (the best on the market) because she thought he could use a new one. I think Iris is someone who goes for very practical gifts. That same year she got Eddie a shirt. (After the scene where Barry and Iris exchange gifts in 1.09 Iris asks Eddie for his shirt size, and it's implied that she's going to get him a shirt for Christmas). 

The wallet thing was probably mostly meant to inject a little bit of humor in that moment, and it worked for me.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the way Grant or Candice act in the Westallen scenes at all. They're lovely and I always feel them. I certainly felt their scenes tonight. And Grant certainly doesn't feel lackluster to me in their scenes at all either. I understand being upset we didn't get a first love scene, but I'm personally not too bothered by it. 

[themadman]

As an Indian, this episode pissed me off with the erroneous characterisation of our mythology. The "Brahmastra" is not a "philosopher's stone". It's a crazy powerful weapon that would utterly destroy its target and had no counter except another of its kind. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmastra

(Also, "Savitar" is named after Savitr, the god of motion, which is pronounced very differently.)

[mrspidey]

11 hours ago, benteen said:

Good lord though, I agree.  Savitar killing Iris by stabbing her in the back and Barry begging him to stop was THE SAME EXACT SCENE from last season with Zoom and Henry.  That was a pathetic rehash, even by Flash standards.

Well, it's not set in stone yet. That scene has Red Hering written all over it. I wanna bet someone else will die at the end. 

Which means, instead of Henry Allen's death, they actually ripped off Arrow's "Who will die" from last season...

My money is on HR, so TC can grace us with yet another interpretation of Harrison Wells next season. 

Edited December 7, 2016 by mrspidey

[RedVitC]

I noticed that when Savitar was throwing Jay around he threw Jay in an alley that looked somewhat similar to the one Barry ended up in later. It not completely the same, so it's probably a different one, but perhaps it has some significance?

On another note: While,  like I said, I don't think they'll kill Iris, if they do kill her that's it for me and the show. I'm not usually like this with TV shows and I do enjoy the show as a whole, but yeah...it would be too painful for me to continue watching.

[TobinAlbers]

Just realized that HR has that device that can change the appearance of a person's face. With a few modifications, could it change the entire appearance of a person? It may not be Iris at all but someone made as a decoy lookalike to protect Iris from Savitar.

The only thing is the dialogue (I love you!) lends itself to it being the real Iris but again, it could be a con the team comes up with to mess with Savitar and whoever is playing Iris was playing their role to the max.

1 hour ago, maxineofarc said:

I really, really like him in this, by the way. He puts a lot of subtlety into what could go way over the top. I hope he sticks around a while.

Superficially: Loved Julian's little Christmas boutonniere.

Amen. Because it can't be said enough, Felton is not phoning it in for a TV show. He's bringing his 'A' game and is REALLY elevating the material being given him. It makes me actually want to see him in a lead anti-hero role in a mini-series as he's got the snark and funny down pat but is really interesting to watch.

Given his archaeological background he might be a good way to usher in Nabu and Dr. Fate if they ever wanted to bring magic into the Flash-verse. Julian beign revealed this soon and being so compliant could be seen as suspicious that he has another twist left in him, but I hope that he is just a snarky sometimes jackass of an anti-hero who isn't a villain but just very jaded and cynical about life. If the show is smart, Julian will survive the season to take the Philosopher's Stone back to where he got it and then goes home to reconcile with his family and clean up his life a bit so that he can return for guest spots. No killing him off, show!

And Julian was dressed to the nines and dap as HELL for the holiday party.

[Primetimer]

With Savitar nipping at his nose.

View the full article

[waving feather]

The villain this season, Savitar, is not frightening at all. I much prefer the one in last season before he was unmasked, because he appears more formidable.

I don't really understand the connection Cisco had with his brother but I don't like to see Cisco sad ever, so that was really hard to watch for me. 

[JapMo]

I feel everyone's pain at not getting a "first time" sex scene with Iris and Barry.  I don't believe it's because they are interracial.  Also don't believe Grant Gustin is uncomfortable doing sex scenes.  Gustin is a leading man...he knows what that means.  So if he's asked to do sex scenes, he's not going to say no.  Besides that, the show has already gone against type for him since he's not exactly the typical hunky, smoking hot actor we usually see in that role.  But someone posted above about how the show presents them so PG, and I agree.  Almost every time they've kissed (on the porch steps and at the gazebo at the end of their "first date" comes to mind) they not only film it all gauzy and shiny but the music is almost celestial.   And they are so quick to pull back...most of the time they barely touch lips.  Normally that's a calculated move on shows when they are bringing a popular couple together...they tease the audience unmercilessly until they finally get to that all important scene where they pull out all the stops and the couple consummate.   And 99.9% of the time, the show rewards the audience for their patience and angst.  So why didn't they do that here?  Again, I think it's PG related...or more appropriately...GG.  IMO, Grant Gustin is off the charts with teen and pre-teen girls.  He's got that look (boy band/Justin Bieber) that young pre-adolescent girls love.  And the show knows that and they are not going to offend the parents by messing with that.  This is just my opinion, of course. 

Kind of related to this, I was totally expecting Barry to come back from seeing Iris die in the future and feel the only way to protect her is to disassociate himself from her and break up.  I was so sure that was going to happen.  So was pleasantly surprised that instead he decided to move in with her. 

[Misanthrope]

Literally me last night:

Sitting down to watch the episode: "Well, now that we're finally done with this Flashpoint horseshit, Barry can stop obsessing about changing the past."

(Barry IMMEDIATELY starts obsessing about changing the future.)

Me: GOD DAMMIT.

[Proteus]

I'm shocked that everyone found out Julian is Alchemy and that Barry in turn revealed his identity to him. I give the show points for not dragging these reveals out longer.

I liked the vibe (No pun intended) between Julian and Caitlin.

I loved the scene of Caitlin making it snow.

I hate when shows drop prophecies. Ugh. I just hope my girl Caitlin will be ok.

I think Cisco will be the betrayer and that's the reason for the Killer Frost/Vibe battle.

I'm loving HR.

Not too thrilled with Wally having powers. Worried this show will become The Flashs.

I'm really liking JWS as Jay Garrick. A smart move by the show.

[Writing Wrongs]

13 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

Pauses, like commas, are important. You could interpret Savitar as saying 'I'm the future, Flash' or 'I'm the future Flash.'

I thought he did say "I'm the future Flash". I was like, "Huh?".

Barry just got done fucking up past timelines and now he immediately wants to go mess with a future one. He never learns.

Julian did a quick about-face. I'm suspicious.

During the fight scene with Savitar, I kept hoping for Wally to get his ass kicked. He did and thought it was awesome. Annoying.

[ruby24]

58 minutes ago, JapMo said:

I feel everyone's pain at not getting a "first time" sex scene with Iris and Barry.  I don't believe it's because they are interracial.  Also don't believe Grant Gustin is uncomfortable doing sex scenes.  Gustin is a leading man...he knows what that means.  So if he's asked to do sex scenes, he's not going to say no.  Besides that, the show has already gone against type for him since he's not exactly the typical hunky, smoking hot actor we usually see in that role.  But someone posted above about how the show presents them so PG, and I agree.  Almost every time they've kissed (on the porch steps and at the gazebo at the end of their "first date" comes to mind) they not only film it all gauzy and shiny but the music is almost celestial.   And they are so quick to pull back...most of the time they barely touch lips.  Normally that's a calculated move on shows when they are bringing a popular couple together...they tease the audience unmercilessly until they finally get to that all important scene where they pull out all the stops and the couple consummate.   And 99.9% of the time, the show rewards the audience for their patience and angst.  So why didn't they do that here?  Again, I think it's PG related...or more appropriately...GG.  IMO, Grant Gustin is off the charts with teen and pre-teen girls.  He's got that look (boy band/Justin Bieber) that young pre-adolescent girls love.  And the show knows that and they are not going to offend the parents by messing with that.  This is just my opinion, of course. 

Kind of related to this, I was totally expecting Barry to come back from seeing Iris die in the future and feel the only way to protect her is to disassociate himself from her and break up.  I was so sure that was going to happen.  So was pleasantly surprised that instead he decided to move in with her. 

I just don't think it was like that with him and Patty last season, so I'm suspicious of this.

Their first time should have been a significant moment for them and they didn't even write a scene for it. That's garbage.

[Bruinsfan]

9 hours ago, Trini said:

Barry saying moving in together wasn't a big step for him -- aww! (however, full cuteness not achieved because they already have lived together.)

"We can fight over the remote and who gets to use the bathroom first in the morning just like we did in junior high!" How romantic.

At this point about the only thing I'm really enjoying is John Wesley Shipp on my TV again as the Flash. Hint to showrunners: the series wouldn't even have to change its title if you left behind all the Allen/West family soap opera and just focused on Jay Garrick's adventures on Earth 3.

On the Dr. Fate/magic issue, Constantine shared the same universe as Arrow and Flash, so the Helm of Nabu has already been found and is sitting in a rural mill house somewhere just waiting to be put on.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Bruinsfan

[maxineofarc]

3 hours ago, themadman said:

As an Indian, this episode pissed me off with the erroneous characterisation of our mythology. The "Brahmastra" is not a "philosopher's stone". It's a crazy powerful weapon that would utterly destroy its target and had no counter except another of its kind. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmastra

(Also, "Savitar" is named after Savitr, the god of motion, which is pronounced very differently.)

THANK YOU. I was wondering about so much of that while I was watching this. "I've read all these Hindu mythology books." OH REALLY, BARRY, you read Hindi now? Sanskrit? If not, I think you maybe have some gaps there.

[JapMo]

Quote

25 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

I just don't think it was like that with him and Patty last season, so I'm suspicious of this.

Their first time should have been a significant moment for them and they didn't even write a scene for it. That's garbage.

 

I agree, it should have been significant.  They can redeem themselves by the next episode in January by showing Barry & Iris standing in the living room of their new totally furnished apartment clinking wine glasses and commenting that they never thought this day would come (i.e. they are actually moving in) and never knew buying furniture together would be so difficult.  And then from there, show the whole episode them trying to do it but keep getting interrupted with Joe or Star Labs, and take the last scene to finally get the hot scene we have been waiting for.

As long as I'm wishful thinking, you just know Barry is going to confide in someone (plural) about the future and Iris being murdered.  He's going to spend every waking minute trying to change that, using everything and everyone at his disposal.  So wouldn't it be cool if Iris overhears him and realizes she's in danger and she does something about it herself or asks an unlikely person (i.e. Julian and/or HR) to help her, keeping Barry completely in the dark.   

[tricknasty]

New viewer here and I have a question. How did Garrick/Flash know what point in time to go to when he grabbed Barry from the future?

[maxineofarc]

1 minute ago, tricknasty said:

New viewer here and I have a question. How did Garrick/Flash know what point in time to go to when he grabbed Barry from the future?

I'm guessing if you held a writer at knifepoint and told them to explain, they'd say something like he followed Barry's trail through the speed force. The speed force has its own mythology, apparently, somehow; maybe it has Speedster GPS or something.

[JapMo]

Quote

Quote

37 minutes ago, tricknasty said:

New viewer here and I have a question. How did Garrick/Flash know what point in time to go to when he grabbed Barry from the future?

 

Barry ate burritos for lunch and as usual it reared its ugly head at the worst moment, so Jay just followed the crop dusting into the future and pulled him out.

[xaxat]

Ehh, it's a Christmas story. . . I enjoyed it.

But on the most shallow of scales, Candice Patton looked spectacular in the green jersey dress and red gown she wore this episode.

[mac123x]

I'm pretty close to giving up on this show.  More time-travel shenanigans, and the seasonal Big Bad is another speedster again some more.  THREE seasons, THREE speedster bad guys (not to mention the reused speedster bad guy on LoT).  I don't read the comics, but I imagine Flash has some other long-term antagonists.

[Cekrypton1]

I did enjoy Earth-3 Trickster being more Joker-like. A nod to two Hamill roles.

[Trini]

Re-watch thoughts:

I'm glad that this episode showcased Julian, because I really felt the show was wasting Tom Felton.
Didn't Julian mention a girlfriend in an earlier episode? He said he was spending Christmas alone.

Also the Oxford paper showed his full name as Julian Albert Desmond -- the name of one of the Dr. Alchemys in the comics.

I understand why Barry shared his identity with Julian, but then Julian was in the room with Team Flash and Jay Garrick when they were discussing about throwing the box into the Speed Force -- seems too soon to let him in on ALL the secrets! So is he an official member of Team Flash now?

About the wallet thing; I thought it was in line with what Iris has given as gifts before (practical items), but also my own explanation is that she knew he had just lost his job, so she got something not too expensive so he wouldn't feel bad about him being tight on money. (But on the other hand, Barry is apparently rolling in dough because of his STAR Labs inheritance, and Iris should know that?)

I don't think there's anything suspicious with Cecile's daughter. I think they're just reminding us that like Joe, she is also a parent. Speaking of; how many apple boxes did she have to stand on to kiss Joe? Because she's still a good foot shorter than him, even in 4-inch heels.  :-P

Glad we got some nice Cisco/Caitlin scenes. There should have been more in earlier episodes.

Poor Barry; with (future) Iris, now he's seen all the people he's loved the most killed in front of him.  :(

[Quelquun]

I have a few random thoughts. Did anyone else notice the extra bass in Keynan Lonsdale's voice when he said it was about time after Joe and his date kissed? If not, it's okay, because me, myself and I make three.

I agree with those that thought that the love scene with Iris and Barry was lacklustre, but I'm still here for the idea of them christening the new spot. Yes!

They'd better not follow through with killing Iris. 

[Trini]

If we did get a love scene, at least Grant would know where to put his hands - ;-)

[Spaceman Spiff]

I don't get the recapper stating the writers were giving a "wink wink nudge nudge Bob's your uncle" about the Philosopher Stone and Harry Potter. It has been a part of DC cannon for Doctor Alchemy for a long time. 

Quote

Powers and abilities

Doctor Alchemy possesses the Philosopher's Stone, which once belonged to Merlin. By pressing the stone in various points, he has the ability to transmute any substance into any other substance (e.g., steel into rubber, or oxygen into carbon monoxide) and also possesses the power to transform the molecular structure of the human body, having once turned the Flash into a being of water vapor.[1][2] Desmond can also control the Stone from a distance via telekinesis. He can also restore abilities to other people from different timelines or worlds.

Also part of the Arthur myth as it was the stone on the hilt of Excalibur. JK Rowling did not create the idea of the stone.

I could care less if I see Iris and Barry having sexy time. This episode was good for what it was. The CGI was lacking in the Jay/Savitar sequence though. I am enjoying HR.

Everyone keeps saying Cisco will be the one to turn bad regarding the vibe he saw of him fighting Killer Frost, but didn't that vibe take place in the same episode when he confronted her on the street when she was first turning into KF?

[maxineofarc]

2 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

Everyone keeps saying Cisco will be the one to turn bad regarding the vibe he saw of him fighting Killer Frost, but didn't that vibe take place in the same episode when he confronted her on the street when she was first turning into KF?

In his vision, he was in his full Vibe gear. In that scene, he was not.

[TwistedandBored]

On 12/7/2016 at 10:55 AM, Misanthrope said:

Literally me last night:

Sitting down to watch the episode: "Well, now that we're finally done with this Flashpoint horseshit, Barry can stop obsessing about changing the past."

(Barry IMMEDIATELY starts obsessing about changing the future.)

Me: GOD DAMMIT.

 

I think I almost lost it when Barry started talking about going to the future and changing it. I mean, are you kidding me right now? 

If other Flash was not there to make him see reason, we would be having another Flashpoint right now. Barry just never learns.

[Cthulhudrew]

7 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

I don't get the recapper stating the writers were giving a "wink wink nudge nudge Bob's your uncle" about the Philosopher Stone and Harry Potter. It has been a part of DC cannon for Doctor Alchemy for a long time. 

Agreed. If anything, that part of Alchemy's established history probably influenced the casting people to look at Felton, rather than the other way around.

[Cthulhudrew]

14 hours ago, Trini said:

If we did get a love scene, at least Grant would know where to put his hands - ;-)

I can't decide if the slow roll of his hand towards her posterior is because a) he's a really smooth operator, b) he feels awkward in this situation and isn't sure what his character should be doing, or c) he's being creepy.

[ruby24]

I bet it's b)

[tennisgurl]

I thought this was a really nice episode, with some good character stuff, Jay being the voice of reason, Caitlyn using her powers without drama, Mark Hamil cameo, lots of nice stuff. I especially liked everything with Julian, and the revelation that he isn't actually evil, just possessed. Felton is just fully committing to this role, and I am really enjoying it. I was disappointed when it seemed like he was going to be a bad guy, I like him more as an asshole with a heart of gold. And he looked great at the Christmas party. Speaking of Iris looked amazing all episode, and she and Barry were adorable together. They look great together. On the other hand, that leads me to the less good news...

Damn it show, if you kill Iris, I am going to be sending a series of very strongly worded tweets to you! Iris is awesome, and now that Iris/Barry are actually allowed to be a couple, your just going to kill her off? Sacrificing Iris for more Barry angst, that is certainly going to turn the guy into a total emotional wreck? Stop the madness, show! And then Barry is like "I must change the future!" even after he has spent all damn season learning that was a bad idea! He didn't go through with it, but come on!

Edited December 8, 2016 by tennisgurl

[johntfs]

On 12/7/2016 at 2:03 AM, BkWurm1 said:

 

There is something weird about Joe's date's daughter.  Why do they keep bringing her up? 

 

She's Chekov's daughter.  Figure she'll eventually be brought in as a hot mess that will become Wally's love interest.

Has anyone considered that maybe Barry and Iris haven't had sex yet?  Perhaps Barry wants their first time to be in their own home or somesuch.

Quote

And then Barry is like "I must change the future!" even after he has spent all damn season learning that was a bad idea!

Changing the past is a really bad idea.  Changing the future is pretty much what we do every second of our lives with every action we take or decision we make.

Edited December 8, 2016 by johntfs

[ruby24]

24 minutes ago, johntfs said:

 

Has anyone considered that maybe Barry and Iris haven't had sex yet?  Perhaps Barry wants their first time to be in their own home or somesuch.

 

It's possible. He was certainly being very presumptuous with a lot of things in that scene. Puts her name on a lease, buys a house without her input, and says they're moving in together when they haven't even had sex yet. Also when she says it's a big step he just says "not for me," because all that matters is what he thinks and wants, apparently.

But the pan out seemed to indicate they were going to do it on her coat that he removed.

Edited December 8, 2016 by ruby24

[Lantern7]

Quote

Has anyone considered that maybe Barry and Iris haven't had sex yet?  Perhaps Barry wants their first time to be in their own home or somesuch.

I'd feel a little better if Cisco and Caitlin weighed in before Barry does anything permanent. "Dude, we ran the numbers. The only way we can save Iris's life is if Caitlin cools you two down five minutes after you start." "Yeah, and I'm not doing that. The last two men I've been with died. Why try for three?"

[Potanical Pardon]

I'm all for killing Iris just so that we could hopefully get

the TV show version of the Iris Allen in the 31st century/Trial of Barry Allen/The Flash's ID made public/the Crisis in the newspaper/Wally West - THE Flash/Tornado Twins, XS and Bart Allen. Just swap Savitar in for Thawne.

They could totally do all of these in a multiple periods of time that we're following, sort of way, like Arrow only successfully did with Season 1 which would do some major fleshing out of the Flash mythos.

I hope all of Jay Garrick's info-dumping means that we'll get to see Max Mercury soon and that maybe he's tied into Savitar's history.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Drunk HR is my favorite HR, but Christmas loving HR is a close second. I love that he totally decorated Star Labs. I was cracking up when he referred to Joe's "hot girlfriend."

BUT I am still suspicious of HR. After Savitar's prophecy, HR started babbling about needing some mint tea and a lie down which made me very suspicious. I thought he was rattled be being called "fake Wells" and that there was more to it than his story about being a writer.

Throwing the box into the speed force seemed like such a stupid idea. What if doing that made it explode, freeing Savitar and destroying the box so that there was no way to trap him in it again? Or what if the speed force somehow increased Savitar's speed and power? It just didn't seem like a very well thought out plan.

On 12/6/2016 at 7:36 PM, TobinAlbers said:

Pauses, like commas, are important. You could interpret Savitar as saying 'I'm the future, Flash' or 'I'm the future Flash.' I wouldn't put it past this crew to play semantics/word games and the Savitar mask drops and we get a raided up Barry. Having said that human Savitar before he donned his suit was quite ripped! And they made a point of not showing his face.

I actually heard it without the comma so I was like WHAT? Then I started wondering how Barry got so roided up in the future.

On 12/7/2016 at 7:53 AM, JapMo said:

I was totally expecting Barry to come back from seeing Iris die in the future and feel the only way to protect her is to disassociate himself from her and break up.  I was so sure that was going to happen.  So was pleasantly surprised that instead he decided to move in with her. 

This is what I thought was going to happen. I hate those "I'm breaking up with the person I love to secretly protect them" motivations, so I was glad to see that Barry went in the exact opposite direction and decided to double down on being with Iris.

Another thing that made me suspicious about Jay was that he specifically told Barry to spend Christmas with Iris then later in the episode we saw her get killed in the future. Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but I just don't trust Jay and his convenient explanation about Savitar as speed force lore. Where exactly do you go to learn that stuff? The speed force library?

Edited December 9, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo

[JapMo]

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Another thing that made me suspicious about Jay was that he specifically told Barry to spend Christmas with Iris then later in the episode we saw her get killed in the future. Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but I just don't trust Jay and his convenient explanation about Savitar as speed force lore. Where exactly do you go to learn that stuff? The speed force library?

I agree about having a nagging feeling of untrust towards Jay, but for me it was right after he pulled Barry out of the future.  The look on his face was odd...he didn't act surprised, like....what?...You flashed to the future?...wow, that stone is really powerful.  And he didn't bat an eye when Barry said Iris was murdered.  It was almost like he already knew. 

[Princess Lucky]

I agree about Jay being shady. And I admit I wasn't following it too closely, but didn't Savitar tell Barry "you trapped me in eternity (which, wtf does that mean?)" and then Henry told Barry to "trap him in the Speed Force forever"? Isn't that the same thing? Like a loop, maybe? My Lost and Fringe days are behind me (when I used to type up elaborate closed time loop theories) but to me, it seemed that Jay knew more than he was letting on, and that maybe he was making sure the future remained unchanged by telling Barry to do the very same thing that would fuel Savitar's thirst for vengeance. That's why he told Barry to spend (a last) Christmas with Iris. Because the sequence of events leading to her death had already fallen into motion.

Or am I just confused by what "eternity" means?

On 7/12/2016 at 5:44 AM, SimoneS said:

So you think that they were implying that Barry and Iris had sex previously and they just didn't bother showing it? I couldn't figure out what the show was trying to say there. However, that makes sense. The writers have never been invested or cared about Iris or Barry and Iris' romance so it follows that they wouldn't bother showing any intimate scenes between them and just have them move in together.

Whoa, that hadn't occured to me. I was totally assuming they're sexually active, but yeah, we've never actually seen that. The CW is especially heavy-handed when it comes to first times (I'm thinking Smallville, but also Arrow, and The Vampire Diaries, and I'm talking about multiple pairings in each of those shows). It really makes no sense for us not to have seen their first time, but it would be pretty weird if they just haven't had sex yet. We know they've both had sex with people before (Eddie, Patty, and Linda, I think?) so it's not like they're the types to wait until, like, marriage. And there hasn't been a specific obstacle, either (like, say, Clark's powers in Smallville, aaaand boy, does that take me back).

The excuse that The Flash is a little more family-friendly does sound plausible, but in that case just show them kissing in a bedroom and then fade to black. I'm not asking for steaminess, here (and I don't think I could get it from GG, though I could certainly get it from Candice Patton), but at least imply they did it, and then let them wake up in the same bed and, like, share a sweet kiss good morning. That's weird, that sex hasn't been mentioned at all.

Maybe they're saving their first time for later? Closer to May sweeps? Like, a week before Iris "dies"? Barry will be like "let's just do it now, while we still have a chance"? Or will Iris die before they've consummated their love?

On 7/12/2016 at 9:18 AM, Trini said:

Nope. Still not liking HR. Still think he's useless dead weight. Savitar called him 'Fake Wells' -- haaaaaa!

Same here. I have zero interest in HR as a character (at least until his potentially sinister motives are revealed). I just miss Harry so much. HR is funny I guess, but I don't care about him at all, and he's not even that funny. Tom Cavanagh is usually amazing, but HR is just too annoying to me. There's no depth or substance to the character (that we know of). Am I supposed to automatically like HR because Tom is playing him? Because that ain't working. Why don't the writers bother writing something interesting for him? As of now, it feels like they stuck him with Wally because they didn't have any other use for him. In which case, why even have him there? If HR were totally missing from the "team", and Cisco had been training Wally, it would have made no difference. Even better, if Harry had never left, he and Cisco could be training Wally together, and being hilarious in the process.

I guess what I'm saying is, bring back Harry.

Or tell us what the hell HR wants. Soon, because he's getting on my last nerve.

Last thing: the friendship between Caitlin and Cisco has somehow become my favorite thing on this show. It's lovely.

And I'm kind of liking Julian (I'm not a Harry Potter fan, so I only knew him from the occasional horror film, but Tom Felton is doing great work, in my opinion). Still, I think he will totally do something terrible in the near future.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Princess Lucky

[Trini]

3 hours ago, JapMo said:

I agree about having a nagging feeling of untrust towards Jay, but for me it was right after he pulled Barry out of the future.  The look on his face was odd...he didn't act surprised, like....what?...You flashed to the future?...wow, that stone is really powerful.  And he didn't bat an eye when Barry said Iris was murdered.  It was almost like he already knew. 

I think with Jay it was more about getting the point across that you don't mess with time -- no matter what you saw in the future. Similar to what Eobard/Wells warned Barry about when he first accidentally time traveled in Season 1. So I don't think he's necessarily shady.

3 hours ago, Princess Lucky said:

The excuse that The Flash is a little more family-friendly does sound plausible, but in that case just show them kissing in a bedroom and then fade to black. I'm not asking for steaminess, here (and I don't think I could get it from GG, though I could certainly get it from Candice Patton), but at least imply they did it, and then let them wake up in the same bed and, like, share a sweet kiss good morning. That's weird, that sex hasn't been mentioned at all.

It is weird because there are definitely  ways to imply sex and still keep it "PG". (I'm thinking of Chuck, which was on about the same level of 'family friendliness', and that show managed to make the main couple's first time/big step in the relationship scene really special, while not showing anything too risqué. (However, that relationship was a much more central part of that show's premise.)) Clearly, these types of moments aren't a priority here. ::siiiiiiiiiiiiiggghhhhh::

3 hours ago, Princess Lucky said:

And I'm kind of liking Julian (I'm not a Harry Potter fan, so I only knew him from the occasional horror film, but Tom Felton is doing great work, in my opinion). Still, I think he will totally do something terrible in the near future.

Oh, I definitely think we're not done with Alchemy yet.

[MaggieG]

On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 10:14 AM, TobinAlbers said:

And Julian was dressed to the nines and dap as HELL for the holiday party.

He really was! I was like "damn Julian!" I'm really enjoying TF in this and cracked up when he mentioned the Philosopher's Stone.

[phoenics]

All this talk of HR and Harry is making me think of Harry's interrupted warning before he and Jesse left for Earth 2.  Remember, he was saying something like "what ever you do, don't - " and then poof... wonder if that's related?

And I feel like Cisco is gonna become Alchemy.  He's the one who will betray them.  Fate worse than death might be Caitlin going full KF, but the version who needs heat to survive and so she kills people unwillingly?  Going through life unable to be close to anyone because you would kill them sounds awful - worse than death.  Savitar did say he had plans for Caitlin, so...

I think someone will die - but my guess is Iris is a red herring and it will be someone else we don't expect.  Knowing the CW it's gonna be Joe.

I'm still holding on to hope that Barry/Iris haven't had their first time yet... 

[driedfruit]

Wasn't psyched about the storyline in the first half, but the second might be interesting. Watching Barry blunder the timeline knowingly isn't fun, but watching a time traveller in a desperate race to avoid a terrible future event is always fun. I doubt the show is going to kill Iris, for the frank reason that the aftermath will be a difficult mess to sift through, so I'm not worried. (As a bonus, Jon Steward demanded to KSmith that Iris should never be killed off, because apparently he's as awesome as I always assumed he'd be). 

On 12/8/2016 at 4:40 PM, johntfs said:

Has anyone considered that maybe Barry and Iris haven't had sex yet?  Perhaps Barry wants their first time to be in their own home or somesuch.

LOL My thinking exactly. Not having a place to get down is a common problem for Millennials who live at home.  

22 hours ago, Potanical Pardon said:

I'm all for killing Iris just so that we could hopefully get

  Reveal hidden contents

the TV show version of the Iris Allen in the 31st century/Trial of Barry Allen/The Flash's ID made public/the Crisis in the newspaper/Wally West - THE Flash/Tornado Twins, XS and Bart Allen. Just swap Savitar in for Thawne.

They could totally do all of these in a multiple periods of time that we're following, sort of way, like Arrow only successfully did with Season 1 which would do some major fleshing out of the Flash mythos.

I hope all of Jay Garrick's info-dumping means that we'll get to see Max Mercury soon and that maybe he's tied into Savitar's history.

This would be fantastic, but I can't imagine Iris would be allowed to carry a portion of an important storyline on this show. It'd be a nice surprise, but I'm not holding my breath. 

Edited December 10, 2016 by driedfruit

[Potanical Pardon]

12 hours ago, driedfruit said:

This would be fantastic, but I can't imagine Iris would be allowed to carry a portion of an important storyline on this show. It'd be a nice surprise, but I'm not holding my breath. 

 

She wouldn't have to carry it. Barry would be with her in the future. While Wally is The Flash in the present...until they both return, but after at least conceiving their twins and leaving them in the future.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Potanical Pardon

[immortalfrieza]

On 12/8/2016 at 3:40 PM, johntfs said:

She's Chekov's daughter.  Figure she'll eventually be brought in as a hot mess that will become Wally's love interest.

The daughter becoming Wally's love interest was my first thought too. If Joe's date doesn't end up leaving for some stupid reason or get killed off it's basically inevitable.

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Has anyone considered that maybe Barry and Iris haven't had sex yet?  Perhaps Barry wants their first time to be in their own home or somesuch.

Or they are simply not in that stage of their relationship yet. It wasn't more than a few months ago that they really even got together in the first place. Yes, making a big deal out of a couple's first time is something that a lot of shows do, it doesn't mean they will here or that they should be expected to.

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Changing the past is a really bad idea.  Changing the future is pretty much what we do every second of our lives with every action we take or decision we make.

Yep, going into the future should have no more consequences than the choices one makes every day. However, with time travel stories that's almost never the case, just witnessing the future causes you to inadvertently bring it about, and even if averted it just ends up being that you were always meant to and you just misinterpreted what the future event you saw actually meant.

Of COURSE they should have passed the box off to the League of Legends or dropped it into a black hole or done SOMETHING more intelligent than simply throwing it into the Speed Force, but then we wouldn't have Savitar breaking out and causing havoc a couple episodes down the line, something it doesn't take a speedster running into the future or a dimension viewing metahuman to predict.

[Trini]

Another thing I liked in this one: Iris giving that extra info about Julian to Barry. Perfect way to integrate her skills. Now if they could just do that every episode....

[AudienceofOne]

On 08/12/2016 at 0:04 AM, RedVitC said:

I don't think there is anything wrong with the way Grant or Candice act in the Westallen scenes at all. They're lovely and I always feel them. I certainly felt their scenes tonight. And Grant certainly doesn't feel lackluster to me in their scenes at all either. I understand being upset we didn't get a first love scene, but I'm personally not too bothered by it. 

Not to hammer a point, but I still get a sibling vibe. I don't feel like they even really like each other that much. They seem to just be super comfortable with each other because they've known each other so long. They have very little chemistry to me. I keep being surprised they're a couple. Oh, that's right, I think, they're together now.

Hope they don't bump into Oliver and Felicity when they're tag-teaming the new apartment.

Also, Wally is clearly Savitar. Calling it now.