S01.E09: The Trip

[GodsBeloved]

1 hour ago, Enigma X said:

I would even argue that we have seen a bad side to Randall depending on where you fall on how he handled the Rebecca situation or his intensity. This is what I like about this show. These are not merely black and white.

We saw a bad side of Randall on our first meeting of kid Randall. Why his actions with Rebecca can be justified there was no justification for kid Randall snatching Kevin's rubric's cube out of his hands.

Edited December 1, 2016 by GodsBeloved

[Court]

Considering Beth is Randall's wife, of course she is concerned about protecting him. That makes sense to me. I'd have done the same thing.

[SlackerInc]

9 hours ago, Chewy101 said:

But she had no confidence that he would ever be truly stable., and the viewers are still wondering if there is something squirrely about William, even now. I get her doubts.

Some viewers are still wondering.  I always thought such speculation was unfair and really questionable (I think I called it "icky" or "gross" in the pilot thread).

4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I don't think adoption agencies want people to be filthy rich, just well off enough to provide  decent care for the child.  It's certainly not all about money, my brother and his wife were well off but couldn't adopt because they were "too old," when she was 37 and he was 50. But whether affluent or not, I think people adopt because they want to give a home to a child who might otherwise be raised in an institution.  There are countries where war and disease has produced thousands of orphans.  I can't imagine why you would be "unsympathetic," to their desire to help these children.

If you think American babies are snatched from unwilling mothers these days, I doubt that.  It's not Ireland in the 40's. Most of the stigma is gone and our society is very supportive of poor single mothers; Aid to Dependent Children (welfare), food stamps, subsidized housing, Medicare, Medicaid, and in some states, free pre-school and college tuition for the mothers. 

 

3 hours ago, PRgal said:

Regarding adoption:  So what do you propose same-sex couples who don't want to use a surrogate or sperm donor do if they want kids?  What about straight couples who cannot have children due to health concerns?  Just don't bother having kids because it wasn't meant to be?  And don't get me started about international countries closing off (it can be bit upsetting for people looking to adopt children from their own heritage communities - "minority" children available for adoption domestically doesn't always "fit" one's heritage if that's what prospective parents have a preference for.  I was told straight up when I called about a public domestic adoption that there are VERY FEW kids of East Asian ancestry.  And I live in a city with a fairly significant Asian population.  Private adoptions are even MORE scarce, regardless of race).  Anyway...as someone who HAS experienced the adoption process (but no luck as of yet), it can be very stressful on the couple.  There is A LOT of waiting and uncertainty.  Which is why I'm a bit critical of Randall's process.  Of course, this isn't only fiction, but also 36 years ago! 

I will take the suggestion to move the discussion of adoption to the social issues thread.

1 hour ago, saber5055 said:

Hoping beyond hope that this is the last I see of Toby. I suspect he won't be all that about Kate if she loses weight anyway. There are men like that, they only want women no other men will look at.

Oh, interesting.  Because then they will kind of be the hero of the story, the knight in shining armor?  Or just to avoid having to worry about losing them?

1 hour ago, deaja said:

I don't think I agree with this.  The past few episodes, yes, Rebecca has been the one painted in a bad light. But the first few episodes, she was painted as a very involved, hands on mom. We had scenes with Jack staying out drinking instead of going home to his family.  Even Randall's big issue started with William's choice and not Rebecca's. I actually think we've seen a pretty bad side of every character with the exception of Beth and Randall and Beth's kids.

I would generally agree with this, except that I feel (as I agreed with someone about in the UO thread) that Beth's bad side has been shown.  As in, pretty much every scene she appears in, LOL.  That kind of intense, Type A personality (similar to Kristina in Parenthood) just doesn't mesh with mine.  But also similar to Kristina, I think she's a realistic character who is not actually malicious, and the actor is doing a good job portraying her.

[Nancybeth]

Overall I liked this episode.  I especially felt for Kate, because I've been there...you've broken up with someone, and suddenly a person that was a huge part of your life is gone and even though maybe the breakup was your idea, losing that person you can text or talk to or share jokes with is HARD.  I don't think we're done with Toby yet. 

I think it's problematic to say that an adopted child should feel [THIS WAY] or an adoptive parent should or shouldn't do [THIS], because no two adoptees or adoptive parents are alike.  I have a good friend who was adopted at birth, as was her younger brother.  He has, from a very young age, had a lot of negative feelings about his adoption and grieved for his birth parents.  As soon as he was able to, he tracked them down.  My friend, on the other hand, has no interest in finding her birth parents and has never felt the same things her younger brother did.  And they were raised in exactly the same family structure with exactly the same conversations about their adoptions. 

[candall]

9 minutes ago, ChromaKelly said:

PRGal - There is a TON of corruption in International adoption, which is why many of the countries are closing. Perhaps we can move a more in-depth discussion of adoption to the social issues thread. I'm an adoptive parent via domestic adoption. I also researched international before deciding it wasn't for us. I'm involved in a lot of adoption groups, I would suggest joining some to thoroughly research your options.
I happen to agree with the poster to whom you were replying. I think we as a nation should focus on family preservation and social safety nets as opposed to adoption. Of course there are other reasons a woman might choose to place besides poverty, but that is still a reason, even in our supposedly well-off country. The pain and loss of my son's mother is not lost on me.

Where's the social issues thread?  Is it one of the threads for this show, because I'd be interested in following that discussion.

I had no idea there could even be such a thing as an "anti-adoption" faction, but in the current political climate, it looks like there will soon be a flood of babies who will need to be raised and loved and supported by someone.

***********

Here's a (probably) controversial thought about Young Randall's search that I haven't seen anywhere.  As opposed to seeking "cultural" roots, I think he's just looking for information about his own individual origins that he doesn't know.  He has an enormous distinction hanging over his head, compared to his brother and sister, that has nothing to do with color.  They can be Big Three a lot of the time, but you know there's also a lot of the time when he feels like the third wheel in a "twins plus one" situation.  (All the twins I know love "womb details."  Who was elbowing whom, who was hiding in the back, who was born first and is "older," etc.)   Exactly as Adult Randall said, he always knew he was a last minute plug-in.

I don't think Young Randall thinks of The Big Issue as that he's Black and they're White, but that they don't have significant mysterious blank spaces in the trip from womb to birth to home.  When he starts to investigate, skin color is the easiest and most obvious place to start and really whittles down the search parameters--not any of the 65 neighbors, but the man who brings the mail goes on the short list.  If all three kids were the same color, Randall would be looking for anyone with a snaggletooth like his and surveying random strangers to see if they shared his preference for mayo on their burgers--whatever he could think of that might be a clue to someone who could tell him the exact whys and wherefores of how he came to be where he is.  (The tongue-rolling was so smart.)

I'm not naysaying Yvette's suggestion about providing role models for a kid who's in a situation where he's a racial minority, but I don't think that was a very good answer at all to Randall's specific question, for anyone who was listening.

Jack's idea for a private investigator shows he understood what was tormenting his son.  Rebecca knew, too, and had the answer all along, but kept it to herself.

[Jax7917]

I feel like william will stick around for a little bit. He is becoming a fan favorite and I don't see him dying off anytime soon. Although maybe they will just keep him around for flashbacks which will keep him on the show. Either way, I'm sure after the william story is resolved, the next thing will be him finding his mother and siblings

[solotrek]

2 minutes ago, Jaclyn88 said:

Either way, I'm sure after the william story is resolved, the next thing will be him finding his mother and siblings

Didn't his mother die during childbirth?

[ChromaKelly]

56 minutes ago, candall said:

Where's the social issues thread?  Is it one of the threads for this show, because I'd be interested in following that discussion.

I had no idea there could even be such a thing as an "anti-adoption" faction, but in the current political climate, it looks like there will soon be a flood of babies who will need to be raised and loved and supported by someone.

 

Here's the Social Issues thread: http://forums.previously.tv/topic/49415-this-is-our-social-issues-thread/?page=2

Oh yes, there's a lot of people who are anti-adoption. There are adult adoptees who had bad experiences, and birthparents, mothers primarily, who were coerced or regret placing. People who have investigated the child trafficking in international adoption. I had no idea that people could even hate on those who adopt from foster care, but yeah, they get it too. There are also alt-right people who believe transracial adoption is race-cucking. A blogger I follow was harassed rather viciously by them.
I'll follow up more in the social issues thread.

[Court]

It's not only alt right people opposed to transracial adoption.  That's been my experience at least. It comes from people from all walks of life. 

[ChromaKelly]

1 hour ago, candall said:

Here's a (probably) controversial thought about Young Randall's search that I haven't seen anywhere.  As opposed to seeking "cultural" roots, I think he's just looking for information about his own individual origins that he doesn't know.  He has an enormous distinction hanging over his head, compared to his brother and sister, that has nothing to do with color.  They can be Big Three a lot of the time, but you know there's also a lot of the time when he feels like the third wheel in a "twins plus one" situation.  (All the twins I know love "womb details."  Who was elbowing whom, who was hiding in the back, who was born first and is "older," etc.)   Exactly as Adult Randall said, he always knew he was a last minute plug-in.

I don't think Young Randall thinks of The Big Issue as that he's Black and they're White, but that they don't have significant mysterious blank spaces in the trip from womb to birth to home.  When he starts to investigate, skin color is the easiest and most obvious place to start and really whittles down the search parameters--not any of the 65 neighbors, but the man who brings the mail goes on the short list.  If all three kids were the same color, Randall would be looking for anyone with a snaggletooth like his and surveying random strangers to see if they shared his preference for mayo on their burgers--whatever he could think of that might be a clue to someone who could tell him the exact whys and wherefores of how he came to be where he is.  (The tongue-rolling was so smart.)

I'm not naysaying Yvette's suggestion about providing role models for a kid who's in a situation where he's a racial minority, but I don't think that was a very good answer at all to Randall's specific question, for anyone who was listening.

Jack's idea for a private investigator shows he understood what was tormenting his son.  Rebecca knew, too, and had the answer all along, but kept it to herself.

I wanted to follow up on this too. My adopted son clings to the little bit of information we have about his birth family, especially any similar traits he has. I feel both are important; a connection to birth culture and a connection to his birth family.

4 minutes ago, Court said:

It's not only alt right people opposed to transracial adoption.  That's been my experience at least. It comes from people from all walks of life. 

No, not only. There are also people of the cultural groups that feel white people have no business adopting their children.

[PRgal]

I wonder if they specifically asked for a kid who can roll his tongue during casting or if it's something they discovered the kid (and I guess, Sterling (though we have yet to see this)) can do!

[MyAimIsTrue]

I absolutely loved the actor playing young William.  He not only looked like a young Ron Cephas Jones but also had the same type of subtle nuances in his acting as I could feel every emotion he portrayed with his face.  Nicely done.

[topanga]

3 hours ago, candall said:

Where's the social issues thread?  Is it one of the threads for this show, because I'd be interested in following that discussion.

I had no idea there could even be such a thing as an "anti-adoption" faction, but in the current political climate, it looks like there will soon be a flood of babies who will need to be raised and loved and supported by someone.

***********

Here's a (probably) controversial thought about Young Randall's search that I haven't seen anywhere.  As opposed to seeking "cultural" roots, I think he's just looking for information about his own individual origins that he doesn't know.  He has an enormous distinction hanging over his head, compared to his brother and sister, that has nothing to do with color.  They can be Big Three a lot of the time, but you know there's also a lot of the time when he feels like the third wheel in a "twins plus one" situation.  (All the twins I know love "womb details."  Who was elbowing whom, who was hiding in the back, who was born first and is "older," etc.)   Exactly as Adult Randall said, he always knew he was a last minute plug-in.

I don't think Young Randall thinks of The Big Issue as that he's Black and they're White, but that they don't have significant mysterious blank spaces in the trip from womb to birth to home.  When he starts to investigate, skin color is the easiest and most obvious place to start and really whittles down the search parameters--not any of the 65 neighbors, but the man who brings the mail goes on the short list.  If all three kids were the same color, Randall would be looking for anyone with a snaggletooth like his and surveying random strangers to see if they shared his preference for mayo on their burgers--whatever he could think of that might be a clue to someone who could tell him the exact whys and wherefores of how he came to be where he is.  (The tongue-rolling was so smart.)

I'm not naysaying Yvette's suggestion about providing role models for a kid who's in a situation where he's a racial minority, but I don't think that was a very good answer at all to Randall's specific question, for anyone who was listening.

Jack's idea for a private investigator shows he understood what was tormenting his son.  Rebecca knew, too, and had the answer all along, but kept it to herself.

I see your point, but I also remember in "The Pool" when Randall longed to play with other black children and kept a notebook with a tally of every black person he'd met. I don't think he was looking for his parents back then. He was seeking out familiarity and cultural connection. 

I agree that the bigger question for Randall became learning about his individual origins. But when he was younger, he was acutely aware of being one of the few people of color in their town, and it made him feel self-conscious? Awkward? Sad? I'm not entirely sure. I just know he didn't like the feeling. 

[Archery]

On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 8:50 AM, JudyObscure said:

I know a woman who got pregnant in1968 while she was in college.  Everyone,  doctors, family, friends, magazines, and her sociology classes told her to give the baby up for adoption, that any other decision would be selfish and the child would have a poor, stigmatized life.  Now, this show, seems to be saying just the opposite.  Randall was never happy because his real life parents had given him up.  Potential adoptive parents are hearing that you will always be in danger of losing the child you've given your heart to, that he will always long for his biological parents.  Jack's is the saddest story of all, to me.  He has been the best dad in the world, but, according to the show,  it wasn't enough, he wasn't able to teach Randall the things he needed to know because his skin wasn't the right color.  It's just depressing to me.

No, that is not what Randall said.  He said that he spent his whole life thinking that his parents abandoned him and didn't regret it, i.e., that he was thrown away and not wanted.  He was angry because all this time, he didn't know that his father loved him and regretted it every day.  How different would his life have been, how he thought about himself, if he had known that his bio father had, in fact, wanted to know him. That he was wanted.  I don't think I can overstate the importance of reiterating to an adoptive child that his parents loved him so much that they gave him up.  I cannot tell you how hard I have worked to reassure my son that he was not thrown away.  Randall is 36 years old, and his whole narrative has changed.  Who would he be right now if he had not grown up with the idea that he was unwanted? 

Quote

I can't find much on adoption laws in Pennsylvania in the 80's but it certainly seems like papers had to be filed.  The biological parents (if known) do have some rights as to objecting to a adoption and changing their minds.  William's problem was that he abandoned his child.  I don't know what the laws were at the time (abandoning a child).  I'm assuming that Rebecca and Jack legally adopted Randall and William did not have any legal right to Randall.  It wasn't the Dark Ages in 1980 and there had to be some sort of process that had to have been gone through.

There's a process, yes, but this adoption had missing pieces.  True story:  several months after our oldest son was placed with us, before the adoption was finalized, we got a call to say that basically, when the bio mom had said that his bio dad was dead, she may not have been telling the total truth.  He may sorta have been living out of state and never got notified of the termination of his rights or signed any papers.  Suffice to say, I could identify with the fictional Rebecca's panic that made her cut and run when she realized that William could come and claim her son, or the metaphorical locking of every door and window in the joint. 

Quote

 If you have a lot of money and want to use that affluence to obtain a baby (because let's face it: the majority of Americans don't have enough money to qualify as adoptive parents*), I'm really not that sympathetic to you.  And I certainly don't like the idea of pretending there is no difference between being an adoptive vs. biological parent.

*Jack and Rebecca didn't seem to have a ton of money at the beginning themselves, but I guess that's another thing to handwave away.

State adoptions cost very little money.  No handwaving necessary. 

In other news, I thought the blocking of that last scene was really interesting, with Kevin and Kate just standing by the car.  I couldn't decide whether it was a "let's let Randall handle this himself," or "we're Switzerland," or "we're feeling some kind of way about you ourselves, Mom." 

[Enigma X]

I interpreted the last scene with Kevin and Kate standing by the car as they were standing in solidarity with Randall. I don't necessarily expect them not to talk to their mom until Christmas but still it seemed to be in solidarity with Randall. At least I would like to believe that was the case.

[Crs97]

You know what line bothered me the most?  Randall's "I want mom to hurt as much as I do."  That's how a petulant child talks.  You're 36, Randall.  

And by the way, Randall, did you spend nine months hearing that one of your triplets might be in trouble and then give birth to a still-born child?  She will always win the "hurt more" competition.

[Trillian]

I actually feel a lot of sympathy for Rebecca's situation. She made the intitial decision to hide her knowledge of William for good reasons.  She then made the second decision when Randall was 8 for maybe not so good but totally understandable reasons (although I think if a stranger with a potential legal claim to parenthood of my child started talking so excitedly about my child sleeping over I'd have run too).  But once she made those decisions, she was totally trapped by the lie (of omission) she'd perpetrated. She couldn't tell anyone what she knew without exposing the fact that she'd lied and lied and lied over the years. She must have known that telling the truth would cause a serious breach of trust, even if she later regretted it and wanted to tell.   That must have eaten her up.

Or, as her precious baby boy put it, that must have been so lonely. 

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Crs97 said:

You know what line bothered me the most?  Randall's "I want mom to hurt as much as I do."  That's how a petulant child talks.  You're 36, Randall.  

And by the way, Randall, did you spend nine months hearing that one of your triplets might be in trouble and then give birth to a still-born child?  She will always win the "hurt more" competition.

There's no competition in life altering pain. Of course Rebecca suffered great pain, and it is ongoing, there's no question about that.  But Randall wasn't responsible for Rebecca's - and Rebecca was responsible for his immediate pain, whatever her intentions and insecurities. He has a right to feel his pain. Few people react to something like that in a rational way. And he was well on his way to processing and working through that by the end of the episode.

1 hour ago, Archery said:

Randall is 36 years old, and his whole narrative has changed.  Who would he be right now if he had not grown up with the idea that he was unwanted?

This is a powerful statement. Learning that you've been lied to your entire life makes you question every aspect of it, not just the the facts surrounding the particular lie. You mourn the past you can never look at in the same way again.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Clanstarling

[HeyThere83]

7 hours ago, deaja said:

I don't think I agree with this.  The past few episodes, yes, Rebecca has been the one painted in a bad light. But the first few episodes, she was painted as a very involved, hands on mom. We had scenes with Jack staying out drinking instead of going home to his family.  Even Randall's big issue started with William's choice and not Rebecca's. I actually think we've seen a pretty bad side of every character with the exception of Beth and Randall and Beth's kids.

That lasted what seemed like 5 minutes combined, while the stuff with Rebecca is an ongoing theme with all of the children. And Jack's drinking was like instantly solved. Even that is like....see look how Jack stepped up and fixed the problem just like that! What about YOU Rebecca? I wonder if alot of viewers even remember it. I practically forgot about it myself. I'm dreading the episodes where Kevin and Kate have their turn to lash out.

[Crs97]

and the kids won't know Jack was out drinking.  As far as they know, he was working hard to provide for them.  His halo is intact.

So far what we have seen is Rebecca does the hard, thankless work that no one notices and Jack gets all the fun stuff.  That is a pretty common problem, as people have mentioned.

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, Crs97 said:

You know what line bothered me the most?  Randall's "I want mom to hurt as much as I do."  That's how a petulant child talks.  You're 36, Randall.  

And by the way, Randall, did you spend nine months hearing that one of your triplets might be in trouble and then give birth to a still-born child?  She will always win the "hurt more" competition.

Everyone is entitled to their feelings, and identifying them and voicing them appropriately -- he was talking to his siblings, right?  These are exactly the feelings Rebecca has been fearing, they are legitimate.  What he actually said to his mother was very measured, and I think arguably objectively true.  If she never told anyone else, she would have been very lonely with that truth. 

[SlackerInc]

2 hours ago, Archery said:

I don't think I can overstate the importance of reiterating to an adoptive child that his parents loved him so much that they gave him up.

Replying in the social issues thread.

[Armchair Critic]

This show is on the verge of jumping the shark for me with the mushroom hallucination plot and a bit too much Randall.

[OtterMommy]

8 minutes ago, Armchair Critic said:

This show is on the verge of jumping the shark for me with the mushroom hallucination plot and a bit too much Randall.

As I said, I was okay with the trip....as long as this is the ONLY time something like that happens.  I do wish, though, that they would balance out the focus a a bit more.  There is a lot of potential there, even in just the fact that 3 is a hard number.  So far, it seems like the relationships were pretty static: Kevin and Randall didn't get along and Kate got along with everyone.  Frankly, I don't find that very believable.  There had to have been times/circumstances when it was Kate and Randall with Kevin left out, or Kevin and Randall were bonded in some way and Kate was left out.  I'd really love to see more of an exploration of the different facets of the sibling relationships and less parent angst.

[DrSpaceman73]

Not my favorite episode. 

 

Not really sure what the REAL LIFE point was still of mom keeping all those locks on the doors in the cabin, kind of a forced analogy.  She seemed completely paranoid.  I know it was Randall's vision and what he was seeing, not real.  Still kind of a loose association if you ask me. 

Also agree show has been kind of Randall heavy.  Would like to see more about the others.  Would be nice to know more about Kate that didn't focus all on her weight issues. 

Also not sure what they are doing with Olivia.  They just seem all over the place with that relationship and with her.  I still feel like I don't know her very well or who she is despite her being in multiple episodes.  I don't know why someone would drag friends, or not even friends but an ex and a coworker with a car, to a cabin uninvited basically like that without telling the person that invited you.  And you act like that with an ex right in front of a guy you just made out with the day before? She seems like a self centered stuck up whench.  Other than that, still don't really know what her purpose or role here is on the show other than "generic love interest". 

Don't look forward to folksy generic wisdom doc making an appearance next week either. 

Rebecca was worried about protecting herself, not Randall.  She lost on child at birth and didn't want to lose another. 

[Cardie]

Quote

It's not only alt right people opposed to transracial adoption.  That's been my experience at least. It comes from people from all walks of life. 

During the 80s, the daughter of a colleague of my dad's adopted a little girl at birth. The bio-mother was white but eventually, before the adoption was final, told Social Services that the father was African American. When they told the adoptive parents, they did not care in the least but Social Services guilted them about how the little girl would suffer being a biracial child in a white family. Social services promised them that they would be at the top of the list for another baby and that they would find a family for the little girl; they had to go three states away to find an African American family. The original adoptive family had the cutest little boy when I met them on an airplane but the mom whispered to me that she missed that little girl every day of her life and felt she could never love her son the same way.

Social Services were not white supremacists but they sure screwed up that woman's life. I just hope the little girl was happy in her new family.

[Rae Spellman]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

When Randall said that, my thought was, "And how awful would it have been to find a birth parent and find out they never wanted you?"  

I know, in this case Randall is indignant with hindsight of knowing William, and he expects Rebecca should have recognized this ex-junkie stranger was actually Saint William, the perfect penitent bio-dad, yet also someone who wouldn't lawyer up?  

This is just my opinion.  The adoption details were a parenting decision.  Randall wasn't the parent, he needs to get over it.  When he was 18, he could've taken on finding his father.   He didn't.  

 At 18, Randall may not have had the financial resources to find his father. It's also possible that Randall didn't look for his biological parents when he was 18 exactly because he was worried that he would find out that they didn't want him. Maybe Randall waited until he was 35 to search because that is when he was ready to deal with whatever he found.  

A birth parent that never wanted the child might be harder to find than a birth parent who didn't raise the child for other reasons. 

William had holes in his pants when we met him. He was living a rent-controlled apartment when Rebecca last saw him. Randall would have been sleeping on a cot with William. It's arguable that lawyering up after 8 years doesn't seem particularly loving, reasonable, or affordable. 

In this case, Randall's biological father wanted him, wanted a relationship with him, and left him at the fire station in the hopes that someone would give him a good life. 8 years later, William wanted a relationship with his son. Knowing this could be healing for Randall. It could help him get over decades of feeling unwanted. 

Randall has a right to disagree with Rebecca's decision. Parents have a right to make whatever hard decisions they need to make. They aren't entitled to their children agreeing with, or even "getting over" the decisions that the child find hurtful. Surely, Randall has the right to take more than a day to get over finding out that Rebecca never told him about William. Especially, because the way the show is telling the story, Rebecca made the decision that she felt was in her best interest. Not the decision that was in Randall's best interest. Or even the family's best interest. 

[SueB]

12 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Re:  Kevin and his women, is falling into bed his way of saying hello, how do you do?  No time to get to know someone a little, just straight to sex?  Easy come, easy go, and age is just a number and all of that, but getting toward one's late thirties, maybe a different approach is in order.  Maybe he's perfectly content with his fleeting relationships, or could be it's an avoidance technique.  

I think it's a way of being intimate (not just physically) but then being able to play it off later.  

BTW, when Kate gave that speech, it reminded me that as his personal assistance (and personal protector) to put the one night stands into the cab, chase away the 'crazy ex destroying the livingroom while Kevin hid in the closet', and generally keep an eye out for people who she thought might hurt Kevin.  Somewhere along the line, she assumed that "protector" role.  I'll be interesting in find out how that happened because we don't see that dynamic as kids.  

ETA: I wonder if the writers are consciously making Williams music and Randall's math prodigy connection. To make the connection is obvious; Randall's math skills are related to William's musical talent (because music is math... with style.....did I mention I'm an aerospace engineer?.... hey, are you laughing at me????....)

Edited December 2, 2016 by SueB

[Amethyst]

The scene with Kate and Olivia reminded me of Rebecca and Yvette from The Pool.  They had the same problem; Yvette and Olivia made valid points, but delivered them poorly.  I do think Olivia was right about Kate, and that Kevin is basically seen as the sweet simpleton in his family.

However, there's a major difference between those situations.  Yvette was genuinely worried for Randall's well-being when she confronted Rebecca, but I don't believe Olivia was concerned for Kate's feelings, even if she did end up being correct.  That's what really bothers me.  It's not that she said something mean, it's that she did it under the guise of concern.  Olivia just likes to be right. 

And most people would have booted her out after dealing with her smugness, anyway.  Treating the cabin like it was some kind of charming rustic "experience" instead of someone's real home with memories, using Sloane as her personal chauffeur while knowing that Sloane had a family engagement, her confrontation with Kate, letting her former boyfriend mock Kevin and his family, and so on.  Olivia might be an amazing actress, but she's far from a decent human being.

I'm also wondering what she meant by "You never met a woman like me."  I don't think she's talking about her inner depth.

[bichonblitz]

Kate and Randall seem to barely know each other. 

Don't Kevin and Olivia still have to do a play together? Awkward. 

[breezy424]

I stated before that Rebecca was afraid of emotionally, not legally, losing Randall but at the same time, because of all the locks, she was fearing that William would kidnap Randall and she would never see him again.  I get that fear more than her fear of emotionally losing him.  That was my first thought when watching the episode. 

Maybe that's my own shallow thinking at times rather than to 'go deeper'.

[chocolatine]

Could the reason for having three locks on the cabin door be as mundane as not wanting anyone to break in while the family is not there? I know Randall saw Rebecca pacing around and locking doors when he was tripping, but I can't take that stuff seriously.

[DebbieM4]

21 hours ago, chocolatine said:

But Rebecca was not planning to to expose him to William, ever. If Randall hadn't found William, taken him into his house, and had him meet his family, Rebecca would have taken the knowledge of William to her grave.

Right.  And that's the aspect that makes all of this so terrible, IMO.   I can understand keeping this information from Randall when he was a child.  But Randall has been an adult for quite some time now, and there was no reason not to tell him.  He had the right to know.  

[photo fox]

I thought the three locks were because Kevin was afraid of bears.

I don't think we were supposed to believe that Rebecca was really engaging the locks or literally worried about their physical safety. I thought it was just a symbolic thing.

[bros402]

16 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

It might even be legal in PA (is it?  It's legal in my state and I can't keep straight where it is or isn't.  I don't partake, but I also don't think it is the worst thing in the world if used responsibly).

They are in NJ. The law in NJ is if the person who was approved for medical marijuana dies and still has some left, you are supposed to dispose of it properly (police station or dispensary) and it must be kept in the containers from the dispensary at all times. People with medical marijuana are not advised to bring it outside of their home, too.

 

Unless Beth had a caregiver card for her father, she can't even possess it - but I imagine that she did.

Edited December 2, 2016 by bros402

[JudyObscure]

7 hours ago, DebbieM4 said:

I can understand keeping this information from Randall when he was a child.  But Randall has been an adult for quite some time now, and there was no reason not to tell him

 

6 hours ago, photo fox said:

I don't think we were supposed to believe that Rebecca was really engaging the locks or literally worried about their physical safety. I thought it was just a symbolic thing.

I agree, and I think what she was "locking out" was The Secret, or more literally, William.  I think Rebecca's reason for not telling Randall was her fear that she would lose Randall's love to William.  Illogical maybe, but that's what phobias are.

[Neurochick]

On 11/30/2016 at 2:40 PM, Chaos Theory said:

One of the easiest things to do is arm chair parent.  We do it in real life so why shouldn't we do it with our tv shows?  Rebecca is an easy character to find flaws with because she makes so many mistakes but they aren't mistakes made out of selfishness or cruelty.  It's the exact opposite actually.  They are mistakes made out of compassion and love.  She loves Randall and wants to do the right thing for him.  It's just hard to know what the right thing is.  We see William three decades later and he is an awesome guy but what kind of guy was he during  Randall's childhood?  Did he ever slip and use?  What kind of father or even influence would he have been on Randall's life?  We just don't know and neither did Rebecca.  Do we blame her for not wanting to take that chance?  

Maybe she should have told him later.  However we don't know when Jack died.  Rebecca could have held off telling Randall for a lot of reasons including not wanting to replace Jack in Randall's heart or letting any of her kids believe a father was that easy to replace.

As people we want to make things simple and blame someone for someone else's pain.  In this case I don't think Rebecca was necessarily wrong for not telling Randall about William. She may not have been right but I don't think she was wrong either.  

I wish I could like this post a hundred times.  I do NOT blame Rebecca one bit.  If Randall wants to blame anybody, blame William and his mother for being drug addicts who abandoned him.  Jack and Rebecca did not have to adopt Randall at all; they could have left him in the hospital, where he would have gone on to foster care and maybe adoption.  His life could have been a lot worse.  I'm just pissed that all of Randall's anger is on Rebecca but he's not upset at his bio-dad for abandoning him. 

[bichonblitz]

38 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I wish I could like this post a hundred times.  I do NOT blame Rebecca one bit.  If Randall wants to blame anybody, blame William and his mother for being drug addicts who abandoned him.  Jack and Rebecca did not have to adopt Randall at all; they could have left him in the hospital, where he would have gone on to foster care and maybe adoption.  His life could have been a lot worse.  I'm just pissed that all of Randall's anger is on Rebecca but he's not upset at his bio-dad for abandoning him. 

I really didn't look at this way until you pointed it out. I totally agree with you. Now I'm not liking Randall so much. 

[Court]

He was upset with his bio-dad. He made that clear a few times with William. However, he's had a lifetime to sit with that and have a mess of emotions about it.

Just because he was adopted doesn't mean he can never be angry at his adoptive parents.

[Bean421]

1 minute ago, Court said:

He was upset with his bio-dad. He made that clear a few times with William. However, he's had a lifetime to sit with that and have a mess of emotions about it.

Just because he was adopted doesn't mean he can never be angry at his adoptive parents.

Yes, this is something that is so true. Children who are adopted don't have to be grateful or indebted to their parents anymore than biological children.  They will have the same range of emotions. Clearly Kate and Kevin have issues with Rebecca, why can't Randall?   

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

I'm just pissed that all of Randall's anger is on Rebecca but he's not upset at his bio-dad for abandoning him. 

He was - remember the scene at William's door.  His anger flamed out quickly.  I think it will with Rebecca, too.  He loves her.  Emotions aren't bad.  Suppressing them is what is problematic.  He's acting in a healthy way, as far as I'm concerned (well, aside from dropping the bomb at Thanksgiving table, maybe).  Within a day or two he is at the point of telling his mother he has lots of issues with her, but will see her at Christmas (I think).  I don't think that's unreasonable.  It's a quicker progression than I would have expected. 

[DearEvette]

Honestly I don't feel either Rebecca, William or Randall bear any blame at all.  They are all caught up in a situation of their making that they all made out of fear and love, but it is something none of them were emotionally able to navigate well.

In my opinion, "blame" should be apportioned when someone does something bad for the wrong reasons.  I don't think Rebecca or William necessarily did anything wrong.  In hindsight maybe what they chose to do wasn't wise.  But the only reason it is even an issue is because Randall feels hurt by it.  If Randall didn't care or if he was understanding or forgiving would Rebecca's actions still be considered wrong?  Her actions would not be the thing that changed, only Randall's reaction to it.  But, having said that, I also don't think Randall is wrong about how he feels. 

I give Rebecca a lot of slack over not telling Randall later in life.  At this point we've only seen age 9 Randall making a big deal about his birth parents.  Maybe after they enrolled him in the martial arts classes and he was around black people more maybe he stopped feeling so out of place.  Or maybe he just learned to hide it better and stopped talking about it.  And if that is the case, maybe Rebecca felt is was no longer an issue or he no longer had the desire.  Unless he brought it up later or she was aware he was actively searching, then I can't think of a reason or time for her to initiate the conversation.

[ShadowFacts]

15 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think we all go through judging decisions our parents made, and resenting them.  Speaking only for myself, I got to a point where I realize it's pointless.  We'll never walk in their shoes, even if we're parents now.  They made the decisions they made given the info and mindset they had and we will never be privy to that so why try.  I now assume they did the best they could just like I am.  You can't apply 20/20 hindsight.  

I agree, with a modification.   A totally healthy person eventually makes peace and lets go.  Eventually is the key, it cannot happen overnight.  Randall just found out something very shocking to him.  He gets time to process.  I do think it is a very human thing to try to understand why people do what they do.  Here we are in a forum doing that very thing.  When an emotional bomb explodes in real life, you naturally question the hows and whys of what happened. 

[GodsBeloved]

24 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

Honestly I don't feel either Rebecca, William or Randall bear any blame at all.  They are all caught up in a situation of their making that they all made out of fear and love, but it is something none of them were emotionally able to navigate well.

In my opinion, "blame" should be apportioned when someone does something bad for the wrong reasons.  I don't think Rebecca or William necessarily did anything wrong.  In hindsight maybe what they chose to do wasn't wise.  But the only reason it is even an issue is because Randall feels hurt by it.  If Randall didn't care or if he was understanding or forgiving would Rebecca's actions still be considered wrong?  Her actions would not be the thing that changed, only Randall's reaction to it.  But, having said that, I also don't think Randall is wrong about how he feels. 

I give Rebecca a lot of slack over not telling Randall later in life.  At this point we've only seen age 9 Randall making a big deal about his birth parents.  Maybe after they enrolled him in the martial arts classes and he was around black people more maybe he stopped feeling so out of place.  Or maybe he just learned to hide it better and stopped talking about it.  And if that is the case, maybe Rebecca felt is was no longer an issue or he no longer had the desire.  Unless he brought it up later or she was aware he was actively searching, then I can't think of a reason or time for her to initiate the conversation.

I do wonder if Randall ever asked his parents if they knew his bio parents. When Randall said his mom lied to him I thought she has told him that she didn't know his parents, not just that she didn't tell him she knew his bio father. 

It would be interesting to find out if, post martial arts class, Randall was still searching and if he told his mom he was looking for William.

Edited December 2, 2016 by GodsBeloved

[Crs97]

Since Beth didn't know and it hadn't even showed up on a credit card statement yet, I doubt Rebecca knew he was looking for William.

The best line I heard was "When I became a parent I promised I wouldn't make the same mistakes my parents did.  It worked; I made different ones."

[kili]

Quote

I thought the three locks were because Kevin was afraid of bears.

I thought they were just taking the opportunity to tease him about his bear fears. Bears don't have keys and can't operate a lock pick, so one lock is normally deemed sufficient for them (plus, they are bears - they would just go through the windows. Etiquette means as much to them as it does to Olivia).

They made such a big deal about the three locks, that I'm sure they will have some importance later.  How many locks did Rebecca have on her current house?  It may be that Rebecca has some OCD. Kate's labeling of everything in her fridge is a little OCD as well. Or it may be that something happened to Rebecca to shake her confidence. She was jumpy when Pilgrim Rick came to the door, but that hotel was something out of a Horror Movie. I think we all would be jumpy after meeting the original Pilgrim Rick and his odd gas station neighbor and then spending the night in the Creepy Cabin.

[Enigma X]

I think Randall is focusing his anger more on Rebecca because he actually loves her more than William and trusted her all his life. (This is not a slight against William.) I am always more hurt by those closest to me even if someone I care about less has does the same thing (or more). I think that is natural.

[Court]

I thought 3 locks equaled 3 kids.

[possibilities]

Randall said that all his life he's been trying to be perfect because he felt unwanted and like a "substitute kid" who had to constantly guard against rejection and win his place in the family. And now, suddenly he learned that he was wanted both by his parents and by his biodad. He just got this news in the past 24 hours or so, even though we saw the episode weeks apart.

So he is finally convinced that he's wanted very much. He's suddenly unleashing a lot of pent up emotion. He can finally afford to be angry at Rebecca, who -- whether you sympathize with her, or agree with her, or not-- is not PERFECT (no one is). From Randall's point of view, she kept him from knowing how wanted he was, and now he not only knows it, but is secure about it, which means he's both free of the anxiety of unwantedness AND safe enough to express how devastating the whole thing has been. And she did lie to him, and he believed her-- when you feel insecure, that shakes your foundations even harder than usual. It causes you to question everything else about the relationship also (and he did say that: he trusted her and now he wondered what else he was wrong about).

Randall has just received an earthquake to his entire lifestory.

[JudyObscure]

5 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Randall just found out something very shocking to him.  He gets time to process.  I do think it is a very human thing to try to understand why people do what they do.  Here we are in a forum doing that very thing.  When an emotional bomb explodes in real life, you naturally question the hows and whys of what happened. 

I agree, but Randall will never get the answers to those questions if he continues to forbid his mother to speak.  That's the only thing I really fault him for.