OK...What's Next?

[Shannon L.]

22 hours ago, VMepicgrl said:

There was an interesting thread on twitter by someone who seemed knowledgeable (forget who) regarding how those two things are actually very much linked. That there is evidence that when people feel threatened regarding their social issues (or feel like outsiders have taken over), they feel worse about the economy. And similarly, when people feel badly about the economy, they are more likely to have negative opinions and have more blame on the "outsiders," etc.

I saw that a few hours after reading your post.  It was definitely an interesting read and something that needs to be considered. 

[aradia22]

Quote

There was an interesting thread on twitter by someone who seemed knowledgeable (forget who) regarding how those two things are actually very much linked. That there is evidence that when people feel threatened regarding their social issues (or feel like outsiders have taken over), they feel worse about the economy. And similarly, when people feel badly about the economy, they are more likely to have negative opinions and have more blame on the "outsiders," etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poor_White

I'm oversimplifying a little but this is not a new phenomenon, particularly in America which has a particularly diverse population and complicated racial history. Somehow the wealthy and powerful (the actual elites, not the so-called liberal elites who could just as easily be middle class journalists or LGBT activists) get people to turn against those even more marginalized as the problem to keep themselves safe.

[aradia22]

You know, Keith Olbermann's saltiness is really comforting. I thought I needed a hopeful, reasonable energy but his fiery indignance and rapid-fire fact-dropping are really working for me. The media seems to have a short memory. I'm glad someone is holding on to their grievances... the grievances we should all be remembering in this "give him a chance" period. I'm not going to lie. I also laughed at him saying "Bye Felicia." And "time share pitchman's snake oil of hate." "Where there are bonds of trust, there is no Donald Trump." DAMN.

Fox News is having difficulty working themselves up into an outrage. The best they've been able to do is be angry at people for calling them racist. But this is fighting fire with fire. 

Also, I've rarely listened to Trump talk for so long when he wasn't yelling and boasting at a rally. He reads the teleprompter like he's reading a book to a group of children.

[Duke Silver]

Can't say I've ever cared about an election in Austria, but hell, given the momentum of the extreme right-wing lately, I'm happy to see this.  

https://twitter.com/AP/status/805455581159030785

[Padma]

A friend in Germany wrote me about it this a.m., expecting him to win. This is very good news (and less PR for the right following the U.K and us.)

[NewDigs]

Still France and Italy to watch.

Maybe Austria's outcome will carry forward.

[Duke Silver]

Sad but true Keith, sad but true...

https://twitter.com/KeithOlbermann/status/805479891282042884

[possibilities]

Recount Update: Stein is taking the Pennsylvania effort to federal court for relief from the million dollar bond required by state court (and counts in some individual PA counties are still happening): http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/12/03/504285672/jill-stein-campaign-drops-her-recount-effort-in-pennsylvania

Fwiw, Nate Silver suggests they should call it an audit, not a recount. Unsurprisingly (based on his past patterns of analysis)he discounts all evidence of inaccuracies-- but despite that point of view, he still thinks the audit is a good idea: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-i-support-an-election-audit-even-though-its-unlikely-to-change-the-outcome/

I love the Kareen Abdul Jabar article, and found the WaPo article about Trump supporters preferring Clinton on both foreign policy and the economy very interesting. Still working my way through some of the other links.

Upthread I posted an article about people being taken in by lies ("fake news"), which suggested we need to teach people how to fact-check. Someone asked how we can do that and when to know if it's needed vs when we can take things on trust. I don't have all the answers, but I think it's a good habit to get into looking for what the source of information is (not just who's saying it, but where they got the info and what basis they are using to assert it) and to routinely question things we tend to assume are true. Sometimes "the common wisdom" is true, but other times it may not be, and it never hurts to look into why, or how, it came to be, even if it is true. I don't think this needs to be anxiety-driven or anxiety-producing. Either you learn more about something you always took for granted and find out it's true, or you learn it was not true but now you know what is true, and I still believe the truth is empowering.

You can always ask who profits from something, what someone's interest might be in advancing an idea, who would be hurt or helped, how something became established as "the common wisdom," or why someone would dissent. Looking for two or more independent sources (or at least one really, really reliable one) and examining the track record of someone, to get an idea of how often they've been fact-checked and found to be correct (or not) before, is also a good idea.

Looking at what people who disagree are saying, and then fact-checking them and examining their credibility, can also help-- and the more you understand the lives and minds of people, what assumptions they are making, what their sources are, etc., the more you can figure out how to address them in ways that might be effective. I've found that to be very helpful with the vaccine issue, which the person upthread mentioned in passing, as one of the ones where the right answer seems obvious but some people still dissent.

The minority is sometimes right, sometimes wrong. It's not enough to just go with what seems like the momentum of the moment. But the more you understand why and how someone (including yourself) came to a conclusion, the easier it is to figure out whether it's a quality decision, and also how to respond.

It takes time and effort to research an issue and develop clarity and arguments to support or oppose it, and I do think we can trust some sources more than others, so everyone doesn't have to individually fact-check every single issue. But the article I posted was saying that a lot of people don't even try to analyze credibility, they just go with what they're told as long as it is familiar or hits a nerve or is delivered by someone who seems confident. Learning to ask a few questions is enough in a lot of cases, to figure out if someone is credible or BSing-- but not everyone is doing even that.

[PatsyandEddie]

Thanks for the update possibilities. AFAIC, each state needs to be recounted. There's evidence of machine tampering, false info being bandied about as truths and intelligence agencies giving credence to outside tampering. It was rigged alright. In Tubby's favour. 

[izabella]

17 minutes ago, Duke Silver said:

Sad but true Keith, sad but true...

https://twitter.com/KeithOlbermann/status/805479891282042884

Yes, it seems bizarre that we are looking at Austria as a finger in the dyke, and Germany as one of the most liberal, democratic nations in Europe.  It's "The Twilight Zone" and "1984" all in one.

Edited December 4, 2016 by izabella

[NewDigs]

Some Good News from Spain.

'Ever since Franco’s rule ended in nearly 40 years ago, the Spanish government only enforced a law promising to rededicate all public spaces named after autocratic heritage in 2007. The problem is only just now being addressed because of the change in municipal politics since the 2015 elections.

Several cities such as Bilbao, Oviedo, and Càdiz plan on correcting the imbalance by renaming 80% of their streets with civil rights activists, physicists, artists, novelists, famous journalists, and revolutionaries during Franco’s regime. Some roads will ever honor international women of talent and inspiration, such as Frida Kahlo, Rosa Parks, and Jane Austen.'

[Lantern7]

Meanwhile, there's still no indicator of the New Status Quo in Doonesbury. I'm guessing Trudeau does the weekly stuff further in advance than he did with the dailies. I don't think "orange snow" is enough.

[aradia22]

I debated between whether to post this here or the Soft Kitty thread but I decided on here because it has a political bent. There are some good tips in it regardless though.

http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/11/a-post-election-action-plan-for-anxious-people.html

[Enigma X]

Advice needed. Next week, all week, I will be on a business trip with no less than 15 Trump supporters and sharing a room with one. We are all federal employees. In the past, I have tried avoiding the subject with these people, but they are dogged in their Trump love and Hillary hate. I guess I need some good comebacks for these people when they ignore my initial polite refusal of not talking about the subject. Any suggestions?

[Pollock]

2 hours ago, NewDigs said:

Still France and Italy to watch.

Maybe Austria's outcome will carry forward.

You can forget about France. Unless there's a miracle, like a big one (I'm an atheist, so I'm not counting on it), best case we have Mike Pence (François Fillon), worst case we have Trump (Marine Le Pen). Whether "we" chose the closeted racist with his backwards christian views on women and his fucking ultra liberals politics or "we'" chose the not so closeted national socialist, France is fucked and doomed to take the dark road for the next five years.  Sorry to say that but really, there isn't a modicum of hope that the things will change in the next few months in my country so you can prepare yourselves right now : France = the bow on top of the basket of deplorables.

[Lantern7]

Anybody else watching Jojo's Bizarre Adventure on Toonami? I can just imaging the president-elect taking off the mask. "You thought you were dealing with an orange-tinted madman . . . BUT IT WAS I, DIO!!!!" Seriously, Dio Brando was bad news before getting demonic powers in the third episode.

ETA: The closing credits are set to "Roundabout" by Yes. I can't make out most of the lyrics, but it's oddly soothing.

[NewDigs]

2 hours ago, Pollock said:

You can forget about France. Unless there's a miracle, like a big one (I'm an atheist, so I'm not counting on it), best case we have Mike Pence (François Fillon), worst case we have Trump (Marine Le Pen). Whether "we" chose the closeted racist with his backwards christian views on women and his fucking ultra liberals politics or "we'" chose the not so closeted national socialist, France is fucked and doomed to take the dark road for the next five years.  Sorry to say that but really, there isn't a modicum of hope that the things will change in the next few months in my country so you can prepare yourselves right now : France = the bow on top of the basket of deplorables.

Wow. That's like, Would you rather be shot or hanged ? I guess LePen manages to keep her holocaust denials to herself, assuming the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

PoliticoEU has a pie-in-the-sky LePen-loses scenario.

Anything hopeful in Italy?

[ebk57]

6 minutes ago, NewDigs said:

Wow. That's like, Would you rather be shot or hanged ? I guess LePen manages to keep her holocaust denials to herself, assuming the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

PoliticoEU has a pie-in-the-sky LePen-loses scenario.

Anything hopeful in Italy?

Nope.  Just got a notification that it went the wrong way and the PM resigned.

[Padma]

3 hours ago, Enigma X said:

Advice needed. Next week, all week, I will be on a business trip with no less than 15 Trump supporters and sharing a room with one. We are all federal employees. In the past, I have tried avoiding the subject with these people, but they are dogged in their Trump love and Hillary hate. I guess I need some good comebacks for these people when they ignore my initial polite refusal of not talking about the subject. Any suggestions?

You must be very easy to get along with! That talent will help you because -- a week? With 15 Trump supporters?  One of them a roommate?

Is it too late to quit?   :)

Honestly, I don't have any comeback. I'd be trying to figure out how to avoid hearing something that would infuriate me.  I'd probably say (as often as needed), "I hope you're right about him, but I'm still depressed about the loss. I really can't talk (i.e. hear) any more about it right now."  And I'd try to think of poems I know or play melodies in my head, imagine the recipes for the food we were eating... anything to distract me from their conversation.  That's one idea.

Alternatively, I might listen attentively--like a sociological case study--and take notes later daily (to share later here of course!)--to try to solve, for humanity's sake, the mystery of why 15 supposedly sane people (and federal employees no less) would support a man like Donald Trump for president! 

You even have a great name as the author of such a study. I suggest, "Why 15 (Apparently) Sane People Voted For Trump:  The Enigma X Solution".

Maybe your week of such a rare research opportunity would crack the code and explain this strange phenomenon in a way that none of us can even begin to imagine.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Padma

[Enigma X]

32 minutes ago, Padma said:

You must be very easy to get along with! That talent will help you because -- a week? With 15 Trump supporters?  One of them a roommate?

Is it too late to quit?   :)

Honestly, I don't have any comeback. I'd be trying to figure out how to avoid hearing something that would infuriate me.  I'd probably say (as often as needed), "I hope you're right about him, but I'm still depressed about the loss. I really can't talk (i.e. hear) any more about it right now."  And I'd try to think of poems I know or play melodies in my head, imagine the recipes for the food we were eating... anything to distract me from their conversation.  That's one idea.

Alternatively, I might listen attentively--like a sociological case study--and take notes later daily (to share later here of course!)--to try to solve, for humanity's sake, the mystery of why 15 supposedly sane people (and federal employees no less) would support a man like Donald Trump for president! 

You even have a great name as the author of such a study. I suggest, "Why 15 (Apparently) Sane People Voted For Trump:  The Enigma X Solution".

Maybe your week of such a rare research opportunity would crack the code and explain this strange phenomenon in a way that none of us can even begin to imagine.

I see myself drinking and being jobless by the end of the week, because I spoke my mind.

[NewDigs]

3 hours ago, Enigma X said:

Advice needed. Next week, all week, I will be on a business trip with no less than 15 Trump supporters and sharing a room with one. We are all federal employees. In the past, I have tried avoiding the subject with these people, but they are dogged in their Trump love and Hillary hate. I guess I need some good comebacks for these people when they ignore my initial polite refusal of not talking about the subject. Any suggestions?

"I prefer to not talk about politics and religion."  I know, I know. Outnumbered.

I'm so sorry for you. Any chance they're starting to show buyer's remorse? They must realize he wants to cut gov't. spending/jobs. 

Maybe be prepared to speak of what a Tubby presidency might mean to your personal life. Gay family/neighbors. Elders on Medicare. Someone found a good job. Someone's life was changed by job-changing training. 

Report back here whenever necessary for support and succor. 

I haven't had any in-your-face-gloating and have been very surprised. The only gloater was a Cuban immigrant. Yup. It's a topsy-turvy world. Fam is solid not-Trump but I'm sure we'll find other holiday tensions. But normal ones.

Edited December 5, 2016 by NewDigs

[KIMBERLYANN11]

4 hours ago, Enigma X said:

Advice needed. Next week, all week, I will be on a business trip with no less than 15 Trump supporters and sharing a room with one. We are all federal employees. In the past, I have tried avoiding the subject with these people, but they are dogged in their Trump love and Hillary hate. I guess I need some good comebacks for these people when they ignore my initial polite refusal of not talking about the subject. Any suggestions?

Do you have any cyanide capsules? 

But seriously, would you be able to wear headphones for big chunks of time and tune out?  Maybe plug some headphones in and read when everyone is chatting politics?  I'm a humongous introvert so I would try that but I know it's not always possible and sometimes we are forced to be sociable.  

I have told people that I won't discuss politics with them because I have a level of respect for them that I'd like to keep.  I also snapped at a coworker and told him that Hillary isn't around anymore so I don't want to hear "But Hillary".   When you're outnumbered though it makes it very difficult.

Dang - I'd have alcohol poisoning by the time that trip was over.  And I don't even drink alcohol.  I'd have to start in a huge way.

[random chance]

4 hours ago, Enigma X said:

Advice needed. Next week, all week, I will be on a business trip with no less than 15 Trump supporters and sharing a room with one. We are all federal employees. In the past, I have tried avoiding the subject with these people, but they are dogged in their Trump love and Hillary hate. I guess I need some good comebacks for these people when they ignore my initial polite refusal of not talking about the subject. Any suggestions?

Is there any chance you could feign laryngitis? Or an ear infection that affects your hearing? You could compile a list of subject-changing topics, maybe? "Trump blah blah blah" / "Speaking of Trump, I read the other day that yams cause cancer." (It's a post-factual world - make up what you want!) Or you could damn him with praise. "Yes isn't Trump delightful! I can't wait for WWIII so we can kick ass and take names!" That way you're agreeing with them while maintaining your integrity. Or whenever someone mentions Trump tell them you've started selling Tupperware on the side, would they like to hear details about hosting a party? I would definitely try the headphones someone mentioned, and carry a book with me at all times. Maybe that Scientology book, and if someone mentioned Trump say "oh by the way since you love Trump let me tell you what I've learned about Scientology!"

[Enigma X]

2 hours ago, KIMBERLYANN11 said:

Do you have any cyanide capsules? 

But seriously, would you be able to wear headphones for big chunks of time and tune out?  Maybe plug some headphones in and read when everyone is chatting politics?  I'm a humongous introvert so I would try that but I know it's not always possible and sometimes we are forced to be sociable.  

I have told people that I won't discuss politics with them because I have a level of respect for them that I'd like to keep.  I also snapped at a coworker and told him that Hillary isn't around anymore so I don't want to hear "But Hillary".   When you're outnumbered though it makes it very difficult.

Dang - I'd have alcohol poisoning by the time that trip was over.  And I don't even drink alcohol.  I'd have to start in a huge way.

I am also an introvert but get agitated easily. I do plan on bringing my headphones and bringing a book. I fear that just knowing what the conversation is around me that I won't be able to help myself but to speak up.

1 hour ago, random chance said:

Is there any chance you could feign laryngitis? Or an ear infection that affects your hearing? You could compile a list of subject-changing topics, maybe? "Trump blah blah blah" / "Speaking of Trump, I read the other day that yams cause cancer." (It's a post-factual world - make up what you want!) Or you could damn him with praise. "Yes isn't Trump delightful! I can't wait for WWIII so we can kick ass and take names!" That way you're agreeing with them while maintaining your integrity. Or whenever someone mentions Trump tell them you've started selling Tupperware on the side, would they like to hear details about hosting a party? I would definitely try the headphones someone mentioned, and carry a book with me at all times. Maybe that Scientology book, and if someone mentioned Trump say "oh by the way since you love Trump let me tell you what I've learned about Scientology!"

Maybe I should bring my copy of American Tapestry (the story of Michelle's roots). 

[TheGreenKnight]

Not sure if I should post news about the recount here or in a different topic, but a recount observer named John West claimed that Trump votes are being double-counted in Waukesha County (one of the 12 counties that refused to do a hand recount in Wisconsin). See his Facebook post here:

https://www.palmerreport.com/news/waukesha-wisconsin-double-donald-trump/381/

Also:

Pennsylvania officials caught price-gouging voters who try to fill out recount affidavits (with personal accounts given)

http://www.palmerreport.com/news/pennsylvania-price-gouging-voters-recount/385/

Edited December 5, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[aradia22]

Quote

Advice needed. Next week, all week, I will be on a business trip with no less than 15 Trump supporters and sharing a room with one. We are all federal employees. In the past, I have tried avoiding the subject with these people, but they are dogged in their Trump love and Hillary hate. I guess I need some good comebacks for these people when they ignore my initial polite refusal of not talking about the subject. Any suggestions?

NOPE. Not, no I don't have an answer for you. Just... no while not being rude (like an actionable offense since this is sort of a work environment). A very firm no. No, don't talk about this with me. Be clear that you will not tolerate shenanigans. Perhaps, if any of these people are slightly more liberal or at least more friendly with you, you could broach the subject with that person and have them spread it to the rest of the group. Possibly make it a work thing... if they're being particularly confrontational or taunting you or something, call them out for being unprofessional. 

Personally, I would avoid actually engaging. I feel like the chances are so much higher it will go poorly than well. But if you must engage and you just want to shut things down, try to make them understand what you are feeling. "This has been such a toxic campaign season. I feel (X). Since I'm clearly outnumbered this trip, would you mind not discussing (Y) while I'm in the room? I just want to focus on work this week. I know you would never want to intentionally make me feel anxious/unwelcome/defensive/etc. but to be on the safe side, let's not discuss politics around each other." Again, this is not the way I would go. If you must engage and you think your best bet is to talk things out (at least until you can escape to your hotel room), try maybe not avoiding the subject entirely but talking around it. For example, don't respond with accusations of racism but maybe gently point out news stories they might not have seen or that they might have ignored. Something like "you know, I was concerned when I heard that..." or "I hope Trump fills his cabinet with people who are qualified and who will advise him and hold him accountable. Like... who was that person with all the foreign policy experience who he was considering for Secretary of State? ...no, that's not the one. You know, the person with years of knowledge and experience..." Maybe put them on the defensive but don't be so obvious about it. 

[Iris987]

19 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

Advice needed. Next week, all week, I will be on a business trip with no less than 15 Trump supporters and sharing a room with one. We are all federal employees. In the past, I have tried avoiding the subject with these people, but they are dogged in their Trump love and Hillary hate. I guess I need some good comebacks for these people when they ignore my initial polite refusal of not talking about the subject. Any suggestions?

No advice- maybe just chant repeatedly "Calm Blue Ocean" when they start babbling. Or come down with a non fatal yet highly contagious virus once you arrive at the hotel. We had an incident in a meeting at work with a couple of undercover Trumpers  last week. Meeting was over, we were all chatting and these two revealed how thrilled they were about how the election turned out. It was the usual talking points- "shake things up, knows how to create jobs, look at all his money" etc and my boss pounced. He requested actual evidence to support his statements, asked him to provide one example that indicated that Trump was prepared and temperamentally fit for the job, understood anything about the global economy or international relations and told him he couldn't just answer with "MAGA" soundbites. The Trumpers faffed around for a bit, actually used STEVE BANNON as an example of a solid hire and then fell back into "Hillary's a crook". My boss honed in on them as best he could, asking for them to back up their wildly inaccurate statements but ultimately had to concede that nothing was going to get through. No facts or evidence will change their belief in the con they have been sold. Very few can stand up to my boss when he gets into one of his "provide evidence for every statement you make" modes. This is a man who has been blacklisted by the Jehovah's Witnesses in the state because he lets them into his house, sits them down and bombards them with "you show me one sentence in The Bible that proves any of this happened" until they flee. And these guys won because they only hear what they want to. I'm at the point where I'm throwing up my hands at the lot of them. I'm appalled but not shocked at how many of them are crawling out of the woodwork here in Australia.

[Duke Silver]

Trying to sincerely engage a Trump supporter has been an utter waste of time every time I've tried.  I have since given up.  I can only hear "STFU, quit whining.  We won. #MAGA.  Locker her up!!" so many times as a rebuttal.  I also just can't get beyond this:

 

Whatever you decide to do, just think of your sanity.  "Winning " a debate shouldn't even be on the menu, as far as I'm concerned.  There's no winning in the face of everything we've seen & heard.  Good luck.

[fastiller]

I went to a meeting of one of the local "Pantsuit Nation" groups yesterday - for LI, NY.  A recurring theme was the need for people to get involved at a local level: town/county councils, judicial, school boards.  This included liaising between local groups and state/federal legislators.  It's important to do something achievable so you don't get discouraged.  

Onward! Upward!

[random chance]

7 hours ago, Iris987 said:

No facts or evidence will change their belief in the con they have been sold.

 

6 hours ago, Duke Silver said:

Whatever you decide to do, just think of your sanity.  "Winning " a debate shouldn't even be on the menu, as far as I'm concerned.  There's no winning in the face of everything we've seen & heard.  Good luck.

I agree, and I don't think it can be emphasized enough, there is no point in engaging - save your breath and your sanity and maybe even your personal safety from what I've seen online. Whatever ways this can be fought, engaging supporters will not be with one of them.

[ebk57]

7 hours ago, Iris987 said:

This is a man who has been blacklisted by the Jehovah's Witnesses in the state because he lets them into his house, sits them down and bombards them with "you show me one sentence in The Bible that proves any of this happened" until they flee.

This is Mr ebk!!  He's got a bible with yellow stickies marking the passages he likes to ask them about.  The thing with the folks in our 'hood is, they keep coming back.  It's so amusing.  He's very nice to them, but they just walk away shaking their heads...  

 

I have no advice for you @Enigma X.  Mr ebk leaves me out of all these conversations because my go to line is always "what are you, stupid???"  So I tend not to engage.  But if you feel you must, keep asking specific questions and don't accept anything but specific answers.  Which they don't have.  Oh, and take a bottle (or twelve) of wine with you.

Good luck!

[callmebetty]

Since it seems that facts will soon be going the way of the dinosaur .  What does it matter who's put in charge of education and is there are voucher systems and what not. Might as well  do away with schools all together .  I mean it's going to come to we can just make up whatever shit we want and believe and tell our kids whatever .  Fuck 1 +1 =2 . That's not true it's 1 + 1 = Android . And we don't live in America or Earth but a place called gibeousklapt .  What's that wet stuff? Make up whatever name you want who the fuck cares.

There are people who believe the moon landing was faked and other major events. So when does the Constitution isn't real start to come into play? Are people going to start saying: How can you prove it's that old? well thats just scientists talking they also lie about the environment and global warming so I don't know that any of that is real. So this Constitution that's not real either, Obama and Hillary just wrote it last year, its true and if it's not prove it to me?

How is any of this thinking gotten this far? I truly feel I'm going crazy.

Edited December 5, 2016 by callmebetty

[izabella]

22 minutes ago, callmebetty said:

Since it seems that facts will soon be going the way of the dinosaur .  What does it matter who's put in charge of education and is there are voucher systems and what not. Might as well  do away with schools all together .  I mean it's going to come to we can just make up whatever shit we want and believe and tell our kids whatever .

That's the thing.  This may be an unpopular opinion, but if you teach kids in Christian/religious schools to believe and have faith rather than (or maybe even in addition to) understanding the role of facts, evidence, scientific discovery, critical thinking and mathematical proofs, they will learn that you really can just believe stuff people tell you without facts and it's still "right."

Edited December 5, 2016 by izabella

[PatsyandEddie]

My children attended Catholic schools throughout their primary and secondary school years and yet they are critical thinkers who definitely believe in scientific facts as do we, their parents. Yet we consider ourselves faithful followers of Jesus but not the literal Bible. Perhaps that is part of the difference? Environment certainly  plays a huge role but so does innate intelligence and curiosity. 

[callmebetty]

2 minutes ago, PatsyandEddie said:

My children attended Catholic schools throughout their primary and secondary school years and yet they are critical thinkers who definitely believe in scientific facts as do we, their parents. Yet we consider ourselves faithful followers of Jesus but not the literal Bible. Perhaps that is part of the difference? Environment certainly  plays a huge role but so does innate intelligence and curiosity. 

10 million likes. 

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, PatsyandEddie said:

 

My children attended Catholic schools throughout their primary and secondary school years and yet they are critical thinkers who definitely believe in scientific facts as do we, their parents. Yet we consider ourselves faithful followers of Jesus but not the literal Bible. Perhaps that is part of the difference? Environment certainly  plays a huge role but so does innate intelligence and curiosity. 

 

Yes, I don’t think it’s accurate to say that “have faith” is a problem because so many people understand where faith belongs and where evidence belongs.

 

There are plenty of public schools, by contrast, that don’t have the commitment that some Catholic schools do to facts and intellectual curiosity. The problem, imo, is more about when you start teaching that doubt or knowledge is a bad thing.

 

As described by one person who grew up in that sort of place:

 

“The fundamentalists I grew up around aren’t anti-education. They want their kids to know how to read and write. They are anti-quality, in-depth, broad, specialized education. Learning is only valued up to the certain point. Once it reaches the level where what you learn contradicts doctrine and fundamentalist arguments, it becomes dangerous.”

Full article here: http://www.rawstory.com/2016/11/the-dark-rigidity-of-fundamentalist-rural-america-a-view-from-the-inside/

[izabella]

25 minutes ago, PatsyandEddie said:

My children attended Catholic schools throughout their primary and secondary school years and yet they are critical thinkers who definitely believe in scientific facts as do we, their parents. Yet we consider ourselves faithful followers of Jesus but not the literal Bible. Perhaps that is part of the difference? Environment certainly  plays a huge role but so does innate intelligence and curiosity. 

I agree with that - Catholic schools are different than the evangelical Christian voucher schools.  Catholic schools have a long-standing history in this country and have always focused on providing a solid education along with some religious instruction.  The evangelical Christian voucher schools are another ballpark altogether.

[stillshimpy]

Advice needed. Next week, all week, I will be on a business trip with no less than 15 Trump supporters and sharing a room with one. We are all federal employees. In the past, I have tried avoiding the subject with these people, but they are dogged in their Trump love and Hillary hate. I guess I need some good comebacks for these people when they ignore my initial polite refusal of not talking about the subject. Any suggestions?

You're going to need to really shore up your personal boundaries.  As others have mentioned: for the love of god, gods and the Wizard Ted, have tons of audio to listen to.  Download Audible to your phone (free month trial) and queue up a nice, diverting book.  Believe it or not Rob Lowe's Stories I Only Tell My Friends is wonderfully diverting.   

Then mention that you are just getting over a sinus infection, so you are feeling a little low energy and excuse yourself to your room, put your headphones on and tune them out.   Don't be afraid to have rules and enforce them.  Every time someone brings up politics, get up and walk away.  

Everyone either had, or knew someone who had a bad roommate in college.  Employ all "I'm avoid my roommate, who seems to have some hyper-specific, mean form of OCD" and try to avoid all social situations.   Bring magnesium supplements (no kidding, good for anxiety). 

Good luck.  

[potatoradio]

4 hours ago, fastiller said:

 A recurring theme was the need for people to get involved at a local level: town/county councils, judicial, school boards

Yep. Times a million.

Local is where change really originates and takes root. It's not as glam or dramatic as the national scale, but the results are very, very real.

Minnesota and Illinois are the last true blue Midwestern states. It'll likely take me attending a few different meetings and groups to figure out where I'm of most use (I've taken a day off of work to meet with the staff of my House Congresswoman, have the local DFL meeting on my calendar, have been watching the online meetings of the city council), but damn if I'm going to sit back and let Minnesota get taken over by some other version of Snotty Walker or another Jesse Ventura.

Our state house and senate flipped this last election and we had this uber-tool radio shock jock ride the wave of anti-librull into office. We're precariously close to fucking ourselves here, but I'm hoping this election woke up enough people here to rally and get a strategy together. I want to be part of that. 

Oh, and there's another name I've seen surface in Tubby's apologist pundits that I really never wanted to see again: Yes, our wienie extraordinaire ex-guv Tim Pawlenty has emerged from his financial advisory group to comment on some of Tubby's "policies." Oh boy, oh boy, cue the Empire music: it's the return of the milquetoast twerp. 

[fastiller]

58 minutes ago, PatsyandEddie said:

My children attended Catholic schools throughout their primary and secondary school years and yet they are critical thinkers who definitely believe in scientific facts as do we, their parents. Yet we consider ourselves faithful followers of Jesus but not the literal Bible. Perhaps that is part of the difference? Environment certainly  plays a huge role but so does innate intelligence and curiosity. 

&

29 minutes ago, izabella said:

I agree with that - Catholic schools are different than the evangelical Christian voucher schools.  Catholic schools have a long-standing history in this country and have always focused on providing a solid education along with some religious instruction.  The evangelical Christian voucher schools are another ballpark altogether.

Let's also not forget that many of the earliest scientists were also Catholic religious.  Some did get excommunicated, but anyway.

I can't answer below this, for some reason, but the post below is spot on,

 

4 minutes ago, potatoradio said:

Yep. Times a million.

Local is where change really originates and takes root. It's not as glam or dramatic as the national scale, but the results are very, very real.

Edited December 5, 2016 by fastiller

[galaxygirl76]

Quote

Sitting in the break room at work listening to one of my coworkers going on and on how awesome it is that Obama is almost gone and how great things are going to be once Tubby takes office.  She's visually impaired and has no clue exactly how fucked she's going to be soon. It's sad.

I'm sorry about the quote box,  my phone is doing weird things. 

Edited December 5, 2016 by galaxygirl76

[Dresdengirl]

23 hours ago, NewDigs said:

Still France and Italy to watch.

Maybe Austria's outcome will carry forward.

We can hope.

[izabella]

14 minutes ago, potatoradio said:

Minnesota and Illinois are the last true blue Midwestern states.

I'm in Illinois, and it's unfortunately not true blue.  Chicago is blue, for sure.  The rest of the state, with a few exceptions, is absolutely not.  We have a Republican governor, no budget since he's been in office, and Downstate Illinois HATES Chicago and the Democrats here.  We have gone red during Presidential elections, too.  The collar counties, suburbs and ex-urbs of Chicago are the "swing" in Illinois. 

[Keepitmoving]

12 minutes ago, izabella said:

I'm in Illinois, and it's unfortunately not true blue.  Chicago is blue, for sure.  The rest of the state, with a few exceptions, is absolutely not.  We have a Republican governor, no budget since he's been in office, and Downstate Illinois HATES Chicago and the Democrats here.  We have gone red during Presidential elections, too.  The collar counties, suburbs and ex-urbs of Chicago are the "swing" in Illinois. 

 Yeah, Hillary was raised Illinois in, maybe you know the particular suburb but it's a republican, middle class area I forgot the name of the area and I don't know Illinois so...  They named the street where she grew up after her or maybe it's after the family last name I think. I suspect she didn't win her own county since it's republican.

[Enigma X]

12 minutes ago, izabella said:

I'm in Illinois, and it's unfortunately not true blue.  Chicago is blue, for sure.  The rest of the state, with a few exceptions, is absolutely not.  We have a Republican governor, no budget since he's been in office, and Downstate Illinois HATES Chicago and the Democrats here.  We have gone red during Presidential elections, too.  The collar counties, suburbs and ex-urbs of Chicago are the "swing" in Illinois. 

I am born and raised in Chicago but recently had to relocate to a republican part of Washington state. But isn't the only real blue part of Minnesota St. Paul-Minneapolis. Although Washington goes blue usually, I can tell you it wouldn't if Seattle and Tacoma were not here.

 

(I miss home so much.)

[random chance]

1 hour ago, stillshimpy said:

 Then mention that you are just getting over a sinus infection, so you are feeling a little low energy

Oh! It's flu season, say you think you're coming down with something and then cough a lot! That ought to have people avoiding your space.

[potatoradio]

20 minutes ago, izabella said:

I'm in Illinois, and it's unfortunately not true blue.  Chicago is blue, for sure.  The rest of the state, with a few exceptions, is absolutely not.  We have a Republican governor, no budget since he's been in office, and Downstate Illinois HATES Chicago and the Democrats here.  We have gone red during Presidential elections, too.  The collar counties, suburbs and ex-urbs of Chicago are the "swing" in Illinois. 

Thanks for the info! I'm a little too optimistic with MN being "true blue" as well. We have a similar split between our blue metro area and red rural, with suburban swing areas and the Iron Range turning purple.

[BBDi]

22 hours ago, Enigma X said:

Advice needed. Next week, all week, I will be on a business trip with no less than 15 Trump supporters and sharing a room with one. We are all federal employees. In the past, I have tried avoiding the subject with these people, but they are dogged in their Trump love and Hillary hate. I guess I need some good comebacks for these people when they ignore my initial polite refusal of not talking about the subject. Any suggestions?

An old standby is just to say "Opinions are like assholes - everybody has one." And then leave it at that. 

Alternatively, if they really try to engage you, just say, in as neutral a tone as possible, "It will be interesting to see what happens."

[Chicken Wing]

I vote for answering every question with "New phone, who dis?" Every time.

[izabella]

43 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

 Yeah, Hillary was raised Illinois in, maybe you know the particular suburb but it's a republican, middle class area I forgot the name of the area and I don't know Illinois so...  They named the street where she grew up after her or maybe it's after the family last name I think. I suspect she didn't win her own county since it's republican.

Hillary grew up in Park Ridge, and they did vote for her - 54% to Trump's 40.6%.  Certainly less of a margin than she won in Chicago (74%).

Illinois vote results - you can see how red the state is, which seems common for all the blue states....the cities voted for Hillary, while a vast majority of the rest of the state went red.

http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/illinois