S01.E08: Trace Decay

[gatopretoNYC]

30 minutes ago, arc said:

I think so, but a lot of people look similar to me, esp if they're all pretty enough to be on TV. She definitely didn't have a snake tattoo on her face, though.

I just paused on a side shot of the dancer and compared it to the Armistice pic on HBO. I'm pretty sure now that it's her. Which would mean she is also an original host.

Yeah, I'm only slightly obsessed with this show. :)

[kokapetl]

Two is one too many storylines for me. 

Was this the first episode after the production break and retooling?

[arc]

No, they took that hiatus after ep 6.

[Izeinwinter]

.. Get out pen and paper, draw a line, and start assigning events to times. William meeting Clementine is in no way, shape or form a problem for the the two time-periods theory. Here, let me lay out the full timeline according to the theory.

t -34: Arnold and Ford work together, Arnold has talks with Dolores beneath the park. Arnold has a crisis of conscience, and tries to get the entire park shut down. As part of that, he increases Dolores gunplay abilities to max and sends her out to shoot the town to bits.  Arnold dies, somehow, but let us be real, Ford murdered him. We see a bunch of Old Guard droids around in this time period, which serves to tell us they're the ones with Arnold code structures. After Dolores shoots it to bits and lights it on fire, that town gets buried. 

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t -30:  Logan and William arrive in Sweetwater. Clementine is the madam at the brothel, Maeve is assigned a part somewhere else in the park. (As frontiers woman, most likely.) Dolores goes off script, goes off and has an adventure with William. They visit the town she shot to bits, and find that it is buried. She is distressed at the memory of having shot it to bits.  The park is bleeding money. This all ends with her getting put back on loop, William leaving the park and marrying Logan's sister, and likely that family enterprise is called Delos. They invest in the park.

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T - x : The last employee that knew Arnold leaves or dies. Ford thinks it would be hilarious to build a robot Arnold to be his right-hand minion, so he does. Ford is kind of nuts, guys. This is Bernard. Delos tries repeatedly to get control of the IP, but fail.  

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T - 1: Logan's sister suicides, his daughter calls him a monster at her funeral, William takes on the guise of the man in Black, visits the park, murders the heck out of Maeve. I think his visit to Dolores may also take place during this visit. Or not. It's hard to pinpoint. Maeve is wiped clean and reassigned as madam of the brothel because her personality got destabilized by the MiB's cruelty. 

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T-"show present". The MiB visits again, hunting after the maze. Reveries. Ford starts his new narrative.

This narrative recycles Dolores's massacre at t-34 as backstory for the main villain. Therefore, Ford has that town dug back up to use as new quest hub. 

 Abernathy goes critical. Dolores goes critical, but lies her way through testing, then goes off-loop, retracing the steps of her trip with William. While she's doing this, she has extensive flashbacks to the first trip, and to shooting the heck out of that town. Most of what we see of her storyline is just her memories of this trip. Whenever she flashes to a nearly empty world, that is us getting glimpses of the present where she's walking unaccompanied through areas that are undergoing remodeling due to Ford's new storylines. Or maybe they're empty because everyone is dealing with Maeves robot rebellion. The exact timing of Dolores and Maeves present storylines is not very clear to me yet. 

Edited November 21, 2016 by Izeinwinter

[KaleyFirefly]

too confused by this show and they are dragging out the reveal of answers for too long

[charmed1]

4 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Furthermore, how is it that Maeve has been able to go in for so many check ups lately if she hasn't been injured by a host or a guest? Wouldn't the people in charge wonder why she's been pulled out of the park so often?

My theory is that since Maeve is a "working girl" robot, she'd have to be frequently tested and disinfected anyway? It's all I got.

The host who stabbed Teddy with the arrow looked so much more robotic than the others. 

Edited November 21, 2016 by charmed1

[Eneya]

AI usually requires consciousness, most of these robots haven't reached it yet. They are still mostly preprogrammed stimuly-reactions with a bit of improvisations based on previous databases. Maeve and possibly Dolores are the only ones I'd apply AI as a description.

The timelines are completely confusing me. The three separate timelines went completely above and beyond my head. :)

I honestly believe Felix is just naive and internalises himself as Maeve. (Nice choice of name there, this show loves its Shakespeare). Also, I do see a bit of "let's see what it happens"... tbh that'd be my motivation in his shoes. Am I a psycho? Maybe... :)

How and why Maeve is repeatedly going down without anyone noticing? We saw her doing it, the client that strangled her? It is shown to explain how and why she is so regularly there.

Elsi... noo... I want her to survive. That scene with Theresa was horrifying, especially in showing how strong the hosts really are.

[Gobi]

3 hours ago, gatopretoNYC said:

I just paused on a side shot of the dancer and compared it to the Armistice pic on HBO. I'm pretty sure now that it's her. Which would mean she is also an original host.

Yeah, I'm only slightly obsessed with this show. :)

I wondered why they drew attention to her. If she's such an old host, why didn't TMIB already know her?

More evidence for two timelines, TMIB=William. Based on what TMIB told Teddy, he had been married for 30 years, which fits for William marrying Logan's sister. Perhaps Logan is killed by Dolores, this being the "incident" that has been referenced. William somehow becomes a bigwig and saves the park. After his wife commits suicide, he turns over the reins to his daughter, Charlotte Hale. I'm guessing that her choice of Abernathy was deliberate; if not, it's very poor writing, in my opinion.

The massacre at the town was carried out by Arnold (who may be the inspiration for Wyatt). He attacked the hosts, hoping that one would fight back, and one did (Dolores?), killing him.

Notice that when Bernard asked if his family was real, Ford dodged the question. Maeve echoed the same idea of only having pain left from her deceased family. Is this something Arnold programmed into the hosts he created, in memory of his own family?

[Ellaria]

4 hours ago, henripootel said:

Or I'm just confused.  I'm still stuck that much of this isn't making a lick of sense.  It's easy to overlook this in a show rife with really great performances and actors, but we're 8 episodes in and I'm still scratching my head way too much.  For instance, still not sure why I should be all invested in the MiB's quest for the maze.  Seems to me like he's basically uncovering easter eggs, stuff left in 'the game' for clever guests to find, which is cool but the MiB seems to think it has some deeper meaning.  William too seems to think he's having some sort of revelatory experience, meaningful and fraught with peril, when the truth is he's basically in and obscure corner of Disneyland.  Anything he finds was put there for him to find, and he knows that, but also seems to be acting like he doesn't know that.  I'm still confused by why William finds so much weight in his fake adventure, even if he's does have a genuine boner for Dolores.  

I agree. I'm enjoying this show but I'm not particularly invested in some of the characters' journeys, especially William's. Regardless, this was a great episode with lots of little puzzles - maybe too many - to decipher.

I'm still confused about Bernard killing Elsie? Wasn't she on the phone with him when she was grabbed from behind? I am disappointed that Theresa is gone for good. If the plot requires a duplicitous board member, I would much rather watch her than Charlotte. The writing for Charlotte is tedious and the actress (IMO) is not delivering. Waking Abernathy will hopefully be a bad decision for her.

4 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Speaking of MIB, this episode sure did seem to to be hinting more about him possibly being a future William, with that moment where MIB clearly recognizes the host that William first met in the changing room.  Granted, I'm guessing she had that position for some time and others met her the same way, but it felt like there had to be a reason to mention it.  But it could all be a red herring too, I guess.  I wonder if we'll even get a reveal by the time the season wraps ups.  His backstory was interesting though and Ed Harris was amazing.  Creepy and scary, but somewhat sympathetic...

...Ford might have made Bernard take out Elise, too?  Harsh!  I so hope Bernard gets the upper hand against Ford somehow.  Maybe he'll end up being involved with whatever Maeve is trying to do.

Stubbs knowing about Bernard/Theresa and therefore, knowing that Bernard is more then just a co-worker to her, is probably the most interesting he's been.

Two episodes left!  Have no idea what in the hell is going to happen!

I love watching Ed Harris, even in this bad guy role. I like that Stubbs is demonstrating some general awareness of the goings-on. I need one character to have a suspicious nature particularly when lots of suspicious things are going on.

[Chris24601]

6 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Is William seriously just going to go black hat once Dolores eventually gets reset? That seems like an overreaction. Surely there has to be more to it?

 

6 hours ago, feverfew said:

Charlotte Hale said that Ford had excarvated a city in the desert - that's why Dolores sees a whole (but empty) town when she's alone. Bugger all. I'm a bit upset; I've never been fond of William=MIB and especially now with the MIB's story of himself (telling it while sounding almost bored) I'm even less exited about it. Fool me for buying into the fiction of a truely compassioned human being on a show that deals with slavery.

The thing is I think William/MIB is truly compassionate. But its compassion like a surgeon feels for a patient; cutting into people inflicts pain, but the pain is necessary for the surgeon to fix what's truly broken so that the patient can be free of what's ailing them.

From what he explained if he did visit the park between 30 years ago and when his wife died he was probably playing a white or, at worst, grey hat. It was only after his wife died and his daughter called him a monster who drove her to suicide that he decided to play a black hat for once to see how that made him feel.

That's when William/MIB saw Maeve break free of her normal loop for a brief time and he made the connection that pain and suffering is what allows the Hosts to "wake up." Its probably when he made the connection between what he lived through with Dolores and that's why he went back to Dolores in the present to inflict some type of pain upon her to help her wake up and start her present journey.

As the saying goes "Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind." One thing that strikes me is that its very likely William/MIB is part of the Delos board and so he would be aware of the reveries (i.e. allowing the hosts to remember events as fake dreams). Maybe he put two and two together and realized that by being cruel to certain hosts (note that Lawrence would also be an older model since he was there on the first play through 30 years ago) he could trigger the hosts remembering the pain of past loops and that the pain would help them to wake up.

Not to go all Biblical (though to be fair, Ford went there first), but the Devil is called the "King of This World" (as in he rules the mortal world). Jesus enters the world ruled by the Devil and ultimately sacrifices himself to free men from the snares of the Devil, allowing mean to be reborn as they were intended to be when God first created the world (before it got hijacked by the Devil). Sub in Arnold for God, Ford for the Devil and TMIB for Jesus (including joining with the Father/Arnold and being reborn in an immortal body) and I think that might be where the story is headed.

[Gobi]

1 minute ago, Chris24601 said:

 

The thing is I think William/MIB is truly compassionate. But its compassion like a surgeon feels for a patient; cutting into people inflicts pain, but the pain is necessary for the surgeon to fix what's truly broken so that the patient can be free of what's ailing them.

From what he explained if he did visit the park between 30 years ago and when his wife died he was probably playing a white or, at worst, grey hat. It was only after his wife died and his daughter called him a monster who drove her to suicide that he decided to play a black hat for once to see how that made him feel.

That's when William/MIB saw Maeve break free of her normal loop for a brief time and he made the connection that pain and suffering is what allows the Hosts to "wake up." Its probably when he made the connection between what he lived through with Dolores and that's why he went back to Dolores in the present to inflict some type of pain upon her to help her wake up and start her present journey.

As the saying goes "Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind." One thing that strikes me is that its very likely William/MIB is part of the Delos board and so he would be aware of the reveries (i.e. allowing the hosts to remember events as fake dreams). Maybe he put two and two together and realized that by being cruel to certain hosts (note that Lawrence would also be an older model since he was there on the first play through 30 years ago) he could trigger the hosts remembering the pain of past loops and that the pain would help them to wake up.

Not to go all Biblical (though to be fair, Ford went there first), but the Devil is called the "King of This World" (as in he rules the mortal world). Jesus enters the world ruled by the Devil and ultimately sacrifices himself to free men from the snares of the Devil, allowing mean to be reborn as they were intended to be when God first created the world (before it got hijacked by the Devil). Sub in Arnold for God, Ford for the Devil and TMIB for Jesus (including joining with the Father/Arnold and being reborn in an immortal body) and I think that might be where the story is headed.

TMIB said to Teddy "What if I told you that I'm here to set you free?" (If quote isn't word for word, I'm sure Phoenyx can correct it!)

[jojozigs]

6 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I hope Felix is a host.  Felix at least. He is so silent.  I do wonder why Sylvester allowed him to run the attempt at shutting her down. If they are both hosts so much would make sense.

I think that Sylvester doesn't know how to do anything with that pad besides "sleep/awake" which don't work on Maeve by this point.  On the other hand we know that Felix is a tinkerer who has been teaching himself how to do behavior programming (stuff with the little bird).  Sylvester is entirely reliant on Felix.  

Felix hates Sylvester and is way too fascinated by the possibility that Maeve represents the first "fully conscious" host (evil perhaps, but nevertheless conscious).  He wants to believe that HE will make history by helping her emerge and escape.  His job isn't that important in comparison. 

They aren't hosts.  Just a stupid, small jerk (sylvester) or a naive, bullied kid trying to make a mark (felix).  

Edited November 21, 2016 by jojozigs

[DEL901]

9 hours ago, benteen said:

Really good episode.  All the storylines are great, except for the William and Dolores snoozefest.  We get some legit backstory on MIB and the Ford/Bernard scenes are great.  I rolled my eyes that Abernathy just happened to be the one that was picked out randomly.

I don't think anything on this show is random.

[jojozigs]

@Izeinwinter thanks for the timeline breakdown.  

I now think that the MiB believes the Maze is a way to create consciousness in the hosts.  His talk of a "greater game" is mostly because if he was more specific it would reveal the central mystery too soon.  After Maeve, he is obsessed with making this happen because it could make his life have greater meaning.  He probably also knows that a conscious host is needed to "trigger"/"enter" the maze.  So he is trying to cause as much suffering as possible since that seems to bring the "humanity" out of the hosts.  

[jeansheridan]

6 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Maeve never met William.  Clementine met William several times, but not Maeve

I agree but was interesting to hear the name Maeve in Dolores memory of the early days of the park.  Can anyone verify we saw Thandie however?

I think this episode made it quite clear that for the hosts that memory and now feel the same.  I know it was mentioned before but this time we had three clear examples of it.  Dolores at riverbank, Dolores in her buried town (in her dress so Dolores dead in the water was yet another attempt at getting to the town in another loop because we see her in pants in the river). And Maeve knifing New Clementine because.of her flashback.  

I think one of the great aspects of Bernard' s build is that he has a highly detailed memory/backstory.  His memory of his son have more nuance and feeling.  And his open distress at killing someone he loved was painful.  The hosts brought all the emotion this week.  

And while it is a trope, you don't mess around with a mother's love.  I do love that Maeve reconsidered finding her daughter.That I think is cool.  She is deciding  to bury her pain and move beyond it. I hope the writers stick to this and avoid mother saving daughter plot.  

[paigow]

6 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Ford might have made Bernard take out Elise, too?  Harsh!  I so hope Bernard gets the upper hand against Ford somehow.  Maybe he'll end up being involved with whatever Maeve is trying to do.

 

There must be 2 copies of Bernard...One was definitely with Theresa when Elsie was captured. However, why would Ford want Elsie eliminated? She was loyal to Bernard - and by extension Ford.

[SoothingDave]

4 hours ago, Izeinwinter said:

.. Get out pen and paper, draw a line, and start assigning events to times. William meeting Clementine is in no way, shape or form a problem for the the two time-periods theory. Here, let me lay out the full timeline according to the theory.

t -34: Arnold and Ford work together, Arnold has talks with Dolores beneath the park. Arnold has a crisis of conscience, and tries to get the entire park shut down. As part of that, he increases Dolores gunplay abilities to max and sends her out to shoot the town to bits.  Arnold dies, somehow, but let us be real, Ford murdered him. We see a bunch of Old Guard droids around in this time period, which serves to tell us they're the ones with Arnold code structures. After Dolores shoots it to bits and lights it on fire, that town gets buried. 

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t -30:  Logan and William arrive in Sweetwater. Clementine is the madam at the brothel, Maeve is assigned a part somewhere else in the park. (As frontiers woman, most likely.) Dolores goes off script, goes off and has an adventure with William. They visit the town she shot to bits, and find that it is buried. She is distressed at the memory of having shot it to bits.  The park is bleeding money. This all ends with her getting put back on loop, William leaving the park and marrying Logan's sister, and likely that family enterprise is called Delos. They invest in the park.

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T - x : The last employee that knew Arnold leaves or dies. Ford thinks it would be hilarious to build a robot Arnold to be his right-hand minion, so he does. Ford is kind of nuts, guys. This is Bernard. Delos tries repeatedly to get control of the IP, but fail.  

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T - 1: Logan's sister suicides, his daughter calls him a monster at her funeral, William takes on the guise of the man in Black, visits the park, murders the heck out of Maeve. I think his visit to Dolores may also take place during this visit. Or not. It's hard to pinpoint. Maeve is wiped clean and reassigned as madam of the brothel because her personality got destabilized by the MiB's cruelty. 

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T-"show present". The MiB visits again, hunting after the maze. Reveries. Ford starts his new narrative.

This narrative recycles Dolores's massacre at t-34 as backstory for the main villain. Therefore, Ford has that town dug back up to use as new quest hub. 

 Abernathy goes critical. Dolores goes critical, but lies her way through testing, then goes off-loop, retracing the steps of her trip with William. While she's doing this, she has extensive flashbacks to the first trip, and to shooting the heck out of that town. Most of what we see of her storyline is just her memories of this trip. Whenever she flashes to a nearly empty world, that is us getting glimpses of the present where she's walking unaccompanied through areas that are undergoing remodeling due to Ford's new storylines. Or maybe they're empty because everyone is dealing with Maeves robot rebellion. The exact timing of Dolores and Maeves present storylines is not very clear to me yet. 

Very good work on the timelines.  Yes, there must be at least three, cause of Dolores' flashbacks of the town with the church.

One minor point though.  Logan talks about his company increasing their stake in Westworld.  They must already be invested when he visits with William.  Ford lets the "money men" in sometime before that visit.  They very well may increase their stakes afterwards. 

[DarkRaichu]

12 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

I agree but was interesting to hear the name Maeve in Dolores memory of the early days of the park.  Can anyone verify we saw Thandie however?

Can't re-watch now, but I am 85% sure it was Thandie dancing on the corner.

[DarkRaichu]

6 hours ago, Goatherd said:

But there's also the quote mentioned above, about Arnold not wanting to let Delos in. If Delos is the company that Logan/William are a part of, were they in the picture before the park even opened? That would mean the money troubles pre-dated Arnold's death.

Logan specifically mentioned to William that he was buying Westworld out.  So maybe there was / were different money men in the beginning of the park and Delos (assuming Logan = Delos) came in later to take over.

[Scrappygrrl]

I really didn't think the multiple timelines thing was real, but now, I'm giving it credence though I am not sure that William = MiB. I think it could be Logan.

I do have the beginnings of a theory re: Maeve, I think she is purposely trying to get decommissioned by causing a ruckus in Sweetwater and going off loop/story with killing people and influencing/changing the other hosts behaviors.. She wants to get put in cold storage with the other decommissioned hosts and they become her army since she does have admin rights after all. (Perhaps the explosive charges in the spinal cords are deactivated once they get put in storage?)

Felix and Sylvester are hosts I think, Not as sophisticated as the park ones though. I thin she is controlling them to an extent ( doesn't explain Sylvester not going along with the plan though - being able to cure him with that tool was confusing - that is clearly technology for the hosts - why would they have human medical equipment at hand?)

 I can't tell if the tech story is bad show-running or bad story-telling...

[jojozigs]

5 minutes ago, Scrappygrrl said:

I do have the beginnings of a theory re: Maeve, I think she is purposely trying to get decommissioned by causing a ruckus in Sweetwater and going off loop/story with killing people and influencing/changing the other hosts behaviors.. She wants to get put in cold storage with the other decommissioned hosts and they become her army since she does have admin rights after all. (Perhaps the explosive charges in the spinal cords are deactivated once they get put in storage?)

ohhh... yes.  In fact when board lady said that Sizemore should program Abernathy to "have a semblance of a personality and take the first train off the park" I said to my husband "how's that work - won't he explode because of the spine thing?"  And then I was wondering if maybe that was board lady's plan (cause an explosion) rather than what she told Sizemore it was for...  But, I like this better.  

By the way how does Sizemore get to keep his job after drunk-pissing all over the giant map thingy?  I assumed he was fired.  Although, I guess probably Ford likes him as "head writer" because he's so easy to manipulate.  

Edited November 21, 2016 by jojozigs

[jeansheridan]

The current hosts are more biological.  Their faces would not open up like that boy's.  So I think the tools could work on both bots and humans.   

There was time for Bernard to get to Elsie.  He had hung up and she was fiddling with the computer when she heard the noise.  She even calls out his name so for her it made sense he could get there in whatever amount f time went by.  

What is it with Ford and cannibals?    Is it a meta Hannibal reference?  I am assuming Ford told the writer to make the new Cannibal.

[Ms.McGregor]

13 minutes ago, Scrappygrrl said:

I really didn't think the multiple timelines thing was real, but now, I'm giving it credence though I am not sure that William = MiB. I think it could be Logan.

 

How do you account for the completely different eye colors?

And narratively, there's not much dramatic heft in sadistic, black-hat Logan aging into MiB.  Nice-guy, blue-eyed Billy, though...that's tragic.

[Avaleigh]

I was hoping that more people's minds would be blown over the reveal that the host who stabbed Teddy is the same host who introduced William to the park and gave him the choice of picking a black or white hat. That was the most surprising part of the episode for me. Even more than the Elsie reveal. 

[DarkRaichu]

2 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

The current hosts are more biological.  Their faces would not open up like that boy's.  So I think the tools could work on both bots and humans. 

To me the tool only repaired skin damage.  By the amount of blood Sylvester was losing, it looked like Maeve hit a major blood vessel.  It would need more than that tool to save Sylvester if he is human

[Ms.McGregor]

13 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

I was hoping that more people's minds would be blown over the reveal that the host who stabbed Teddy is the same host who introduced William to the park and gave him the choice of picking a black or white hat. That was the most surprising part of the episode for me. Even more than the Elsie reveal. 

FWIW, I gasped and fist-pumped because I've been well into the William=MiB camp for weeks now.

[Primetimer]

Mark Blankenship is not a crackpot; it just makes good dramatic sense.

View the full article

[DarkRaichu]

2 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

I was hoping that more people's minds would be blown over the reveal that the host who stabbed Teddy is the same host who introduced William to the park and gave him the choice of picking a black or white hat. That was the most surprising part of the episode for me. Even more than the Elsie reveal. 

I knew I watched too much TV, when I realized Teddy was f---ed as soon as we saw her as the damsel that he saved.  I was more surprised by Teddy knocking MiB out.  

By the way, she was still shown in receptionist clothes in the promotional video that Maeve watched during her tour of Mesa's upper levels.  Not sure what that meant, yet :P

Also, how come nobody talked about the fact that Teddy now remembers too? :P  Teddy is the newer build, right?

[Shipper]

10 hours ago, jojozigs said:

 

Regarding the maze - it seems like we now know that MiBs obsession with it started with Maeve, not with Delores as most on board with MiB=William had likely assumed.  

Can anyone remember if we have had a clear, no ambiguity mention of the maze when William is present?  

The impression I'm left with stems from a few mentions in the episode about the way Hosts memories are such that the past is the same as the present. The show is doing the same thing to the audience.  It's a pastiche of past and present stitched together...for one story.   Timeline is all over the place  

My guess is that the William and Delores plot took place decades ago (but that she is experiencing reveries of it now).  And I think William is MIB.   I base this largely on MIB's story about his wife.  The way he said he'd always considered himself a 'good man'.

 William is about to get married in the Delores plot.  MIB says his wife committed suicide after 30 years of marriage.  After his wife's death, he returned to Westworld to do something 'evil' and murdered Settler-Maeve. Since MIB is '30 years later,' I wonder exactly how long ago was it that Settler-Maeve tried to kill herself and got reassigned as Madame Maeve?  

 

The original William and Delores plot will either end badly or as an anti-climax.    I think that  plot is taking place in the distant past. After the D&W quest, William  left to marry whoever and Delores is sent on the short loop plot with Teddy as looped in the first episode.  (Further evidence is MIB rescuing the host-bot who first introduced William to the park) 

But, after being activated by Abernathy, she's traveling the same path as she did with William.  We have flashes where she's alone and William disappears.  She's re-enacting 30 years ago in the present, but cannot tell the past from the present while doing it   

I also think that Bernard is Arnold.  Or rather the host version of Arnold.  So some of the memories of Delores' interviews aren't with Bernard at all but are very old memories.

As to why would Ford make an Arnold-bot.... why would he make his dad-bot, his dog-bot, his kid-self  a bot?  Clearly, Ford doesn't let go of the past.  He just recreates it, and subjects it to his will.   He's done/is doing the same with Bernard/Arnold.  To what end? Unclear.

But... Ford is a controlling old man.   He might be well on his way to wanting to perfect the code so he can upload himself and live forever while maintaining complete control of his fiefdom. 

Edited November 21, 2016 by Shipper

[Lamima]

Just now watching this episode on my DVR. Could Theresa, who was just killed last episode, be Logan's sister who was supposed to marry William??? Only a little bit in, so maybe they reveal this by the end...

[Chris24601]

20 minutes ago, Scrappygrrl said:

Felix and Sylvester are hosts I think, Not as sophisticated as the park ones though. I thin she is controlling them to an extent ( doesn't explain Sylvester not going along with the plan though - being able to cure him with that tool was confusing - that is clearly technology for the hosts - why would they have human medical equipment at hand?)

As Felix and Sylvester explained to Maeve a few episodes back, there's not actually all that much difference anymore between a human body and a host body and its mainly the AI processor that sets hosts apart from humans. If they're made from the same stuff then it stands to reason that the same equipment that could fix a host could fix a human.

Which actually brings up an interesting point about the larger world that Westworld resides in... medicine is clearly advanced enough that significant trauma can be patched up with a "magic" torch. What else can future medicine do? Is cancer a thing of the past? (and if it is, what does that say about "Bernard's" memories of his son in the hospital... could they have based on Arnold's experiences 35 years earlier when such things had not yet be easily curable?)

That sort of lends some weight to the discussions about how people's lives outside the park don't have much meaning. If technology is so advanced that you never get sick, that cars drive themselves so they don't have accidents, that more conventional robots perform all the grunt labor and all your basic needs are provided for without much actual work needing to be done... Utopia might be a great place to visit, humans didn't evolve to live in such an environment and not being able to really test your limits instead of being coddled inside a world where every day is basically the same as the last ("We all have our loops").

5 minutes ago, Ms.McGregor said:

And narratively, there's not much dramatic heft in sadistic, black-hat Logan aging into MiB.  Nice-guy, blue-eyed Billy, though...that's tragic.

And even more narratively interesting if the twist is that the apparent black hat is revealed to be the actual good guy (who is trying to free the Hosts) while the apparent benevolent figure is actually a maniacal murdering control freak (especially if its proven rather than merely hinted at that Ford ordered Bernard to murder Elsie as well).

The fact that none of the deaths he's inflicted on the hosts actually count (i.e. he knows they'll be patched up good as new afterwards) further mitigates how "sadistic" MiB is.

Is a surgeon sadistic because he carves into people, removes parts of them and/or sews parts from other people into them? Or is the surgeon a heroic figure who uses his expertise to inflict short term pain and injury to produce long term benefits for his patients? (i.e. every incision and need poke is technically an injury; heck, chemotherapy involves deliberately inflicting horrible trauma on a person in order to kill off the cancerous cells that will kill them otherwise.)

Just like the door we didn't see until Theresa forced Bernard to see it, a LOT of our viewpoints on various characters are colored by the writers only showing us what they want us to see, but starting at the end of last episode we've finally hit the point in the story where the story is going to show us who the players really are.

[DarkRaichu]

3 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Which actually brings up an interesting point about the larger world that Westworld resides in... medicine is clearly advanced enough that significant trauma can be patched up with a "magic" torch. What else can future medicine do? Is cancer a thing of the past? (and if it is, what does that say about "Bernard's" memories of his son in the hospital... could they have based on Arnold's experiences 35 years earlier when such things had not yet be easily curable?)

That sort of lends some weight to the discussions about how people's lives outside the park don't have much meaning. If technology is so advanced that you never get sick, that cars drive themselves so they don't have accidents, that more conventional robots perform all the grunt labor and all your basic needs are provided for without much actual work needing to be done... Utopia might be a great place to visit, humans didn't evolve to live in such an environment and not being able to really test your limits instead of being coddled inside a world where every day is basically the same as the last ("We all have our loops").

This make so much sense.  I forgot for a moment that this was in future, so maybe magic healing torch (a la Bones' gadgets in Star Trek) already existed in this universe.

To take this 1 step further, MiB mentioned his wife took the wrong pill and was drowned in the bathtub as result.  Given how strictly sharp weapons were limited in Westworld, perhaps there were strict limitations to sharp things (knives, razors, box cutters) in Utopia / outside world as well.

[Cthulhudrew]

EDIT: Had issues w/multiquote.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Cthulhudrew
Quoting problems. Moved to next post.

[Cthulhudrew]

3 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I'm still confused about Bernard killing Elsie? Wasn't she on the phone with him when she was grabbed from behind?

That's how it appeared to us, the viewer, chronologically. But we've already seen that there are issues with scenes from Bernard's perspective (the door last ep), and it does seem as if the writers are playing with timelines. I'm now thinking it's possible that the phone conversation with Bernard and Elsie happened, but might have taken place prior to him meeting with Theresa. Ford (for some reason) sent him to kill Elsie, then as part of his cleanup (that Ford notes he does so well), he arranged for that phone call to be replayed to his memory-wiped self so that he'd recall it having taken place but also that he could not have been near when she was abducted/killed.

But then, maybe that's too elaborate a theory for it. 

2 hours ago, Gobi said:

TMIB said to Teddy "What if I told you that I'm here to set you free?" (If quote isn't word for word, I'm sure Phoenyx can correct it!)

I think that he said that to Lawrence, but yes, I think that is more or less verbatim.

[Izeinwinter]

Eh, more than likely, Elsie lingered a while, Bernard caught up with her, killed her and it all got crudely wiped. His memory of that day is simply missing a good chunk of time, and patching over the hole. 

.. I still am puzzled why on earth Ford would have him do that, however, as Elsie was inadvertently doing his bidding, and to boot had made it very clear to Bernard that she would have been trivial to buy off. Is the old man just that trigger happy with the murder orders? I guess that's possible.

Or did he want Elsie for a test subject? .. uhm.. Thinfoil Theory brewing.. 

[Lamima]

1 hour ago, Lamima said:

Just now watching this episode on my DVR. Could Theresa, who was just killed last episode, be Logan's sister who was supposed to marry William??? Only a little bit in, so maybe they reveal this by the end...

Also wondering if Charlotte is MiB's daughter.

And am also starting to think we have multiple time periods being shown. I really hope this show isn't making sh!+ up as it goes along... like Lost.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Lamima

[kay1864]

Oops, never mind.  Showing my ignorance of modern music.

Edited November 21, 2016 by kay1864

[DarkRaichu]

1 minute ago, Lamima said:

And am also starting to think we have multiple time periods being shown. I really hope this show isn't making sh!+ up as it hoes along... like Lost.

For me, Nolan still has some residuals goodwill from they way he wrapped up Person of Interest.  PoI ending was probably the most satisfying TV show ending ever.  It wrapped up many storylines and gave poetic bookends for the characters.

[Netfoot]

6 hours ago, Izeinwinter said:

Ford thinks it would be hilarious to build a robot Arnold to be his right-hand minion, so he does.

What part of bot-Bernard is Arnold?  Does bot-Bernard look like Arnold?  Surely somebody other than Ford is still alive to notice the similarity?  Does bot-Bernard think like Arnold?  If so, wouldn't he be just as deleterious  to Ford's plans as human-Arnold?

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

I was hoping that more people's minds would be blown over the reveal that the host who stabbed Teddy is the same host who introduced William to the park and gave him the choice of picking a black or white hat.

She also walked across in front of the dancers in a demure little dress, carrying a parasol.

2 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

2 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I agree but was interesting to hear the name Maeve in Dolores memory of the early days of the park.  Can anyone verify we saw Thandie however?

Can't re-watch now, but I am 85% sure it was Thandie dancing on the corner.

At the dance?  The dance-instructor specifically said: "Well done, Maeve!   Lovely work!"  Also at the dance -- I think -- was the snake-tattooed bandit, except without the tattoo.  She was the one who tried to wander off and was told "Stay with your partner..."

[DarkRaichu]

5 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

At the dance?  The dance-instructor specifically said: "Well done, Maeve!   Lovely work!"  Also at the dance -- I think -- was the snake-tattooed bandit, except without the tattoo.  She was the one who tried to wander off and was told "Stay with your partner..."

OP asked if they showed Thandie on screen at the dance.  IIRC they did show her just after the receptionist with umbrella was shown, but before the bandit wondered away from her partner.  It was if you blinked you missed it scene

[sneakyflute]

Ford explains that his colleagues went to great trouble to scrub Arnold from the history books. No one in the present has even heard the name. As far-fetched as it may seem, it is what it is. 

I'm kind of surprised by how many people are still rejecting the William = MiB theory. They planted the seeds for 7 episodes and this current one hammered the point home. I just don't think people are paying attention. 

[SoothingDave]

23 minutes ago, Lamima said:

Also wondering if Charlotte is MiB's daughter.

 

I don't see how that can be concluded.  If William is MiB and he marries Logan's sister, I don't see how their child ends up non-white.

I mean, sure Logan's sister could be adopted and of another race, but I don't see why one would assume that given no evidence.  

[DarkRaichu]

1 minute ago, sneakyflute said:

I'm kind of surprised by how many people are still rejecting the William = MiB theory. They planted the seeds for 7 episodes and this current one hammered the point home. I just don't think people are paying attention. 

I was convinced of 2 timelines by episode 4.  I am just not trying too hard to convince everyone else. :D 

I still do not buy that William = MiB though :P

[Lamima]

5 minutes ago, SoothingDave said:

I don't see how that can be concluded.  If William is MiB and he marries Logan's sister, I don't see how their child ends up non-white.

I mean, sure Logan's sister could be adopted and of another race, but I don't see why one would assume that given no evidence.  

I am not sure MIB is William. But maybe he is and he didn't marry Logan's sister or maybe they adopted Charlotte. I just found them stating that Teresa's only relative was a brother... so I feel that brother will show up and be of importance. Same with MiB's story about his wife's suicide and ticked off daughter.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Lamima

[jbrecken]

I think Felix explained to to the audience how the "two timelines" theory is actually just one timeline.  He told Maeve that hosts' memories don't work like humans; when they recall past events they actually relive them.  So when we see William and Dolores off on their quest we're actually seeing Dolores remembering past events in the present.

[Netfoot]

14 minutes ago, sneakyflute said:

I'm kind of surprised by how many people are still rejecting the William = MiB theory. They planted the seeds for 7 episodes and this current one hammered the point home. I just don't think people are paying attention. 

[DarkRaichu]

2 minutes ago, jbrecken said:

I think Felix explained to to the audience how the "two timelines" theory is actually just one timeline.  He told Maeve that hosts' memories don't work like humans; when they recall past events they actually relive them.  So when we see William and Dolores off on their quest we're actually seeing Dolores remembering past events in the present.

Those were shown on screen twice.  When Dolores put a gun on her head and William stopped her, that was a reflection of Dolores remembering the town with old hosts dancing.

Also, when Maeve slit Clementine2's throat, it was a reflection of Mave slitting the MiB's throat in the past

[beeble]

I think I have face blindness because I did not recognize the blond whom the MIB assumed had been retired. Most pretty blonds on TV all become blurry to me  but seriously - I cannot keep bit players in my head. But if it is the same person, and she is has been repurposed from welcome lady to damsel in distress, why is she still in the video that Maeve saw? Is Maeve in an earlier timeline?

My confusion matches the human condition described by Ford to Bernard. Just a whole lot of "What? Why? Who's that?" Game of Thrones is easier to follow.

And speaking of our favorite bot, I vote that Bernard is not "Arnold Repurposed" for the reasons others have stated: surely somebody knew what Arnold looked like. His name hasn't been scratched from the record so somebody would have recognized him, even if his contributions were not as big as Ford's. If Steve Jobs had killed Steve Wozniak and built a robot to look like him and called him something other than "Woz," people would start to ask questions. 

[Netfoot]

4 minutes ago, beeble said:

If Steve Jobs had killed Steve Wozniak and built a robot to look like him and called him something other than "Woz," people would start to ask questions.

You realize that Woz would have been far more capable of building a bot-Steve, right?  

[Ellaria]

6 minutes ago, beeble said:

 If Steve Jobs had killed Steve Wozniak and built a robot to look like him and called him something other than "Woz," people would start to ask questions. 

This is probably the best line in the entire thread.!