S07.E01: The Day Will Come When You Won't Be

[slf]

On 10/24/2016 at 11:21 PM, AngelaHunter said:

Agree. Small scale - Charles Manson. Huge scale - Adolf Hitler.

Hitler hijacked society by finding enough people who could support his ideology. He also maintained structure, providing people with an incentive to go along with him (they had needs, they had a stake in things, etc). He targeted 'others' so the majority went along with it out of agreement or fear and self-preservation. Fear and self-preservation were also big motivators because it was all entirely top-down; the military and government, the highest authorities within German borders. There was nowhere within the country to really seek refuge and crossing borders wasn't easy. People well and truly felt trapped. Also Hitler didn't require most people to actually participate in the killings as he had a huge trained force at his back that was willing to do the dirty work; had he required citizens to do the killings instead, things might've gone differently. Not to mention the majority of the victims of the Holocaust weren't Germans. In fact, German Jews had a higher survival rate than the Jews who lived in the states/countries Hitler destroyed. There are other reasons Hitler was successful but society (from elections, to trade, to borders) really made it all possible. 

Edited October 28, 2016 by slf

[LocimusPrime]

Ok here's what shoulda happened:

• Neegan was sitting with Rick at the table in the RV.  He had just wiped the axe with alcohol and handed it back to Rick.  Rick should taken the axe and just chopped him, Neegan didn't have his M4 rifle at the table.  Done 
• After killing Neegan, he should have tied his hands behind his back, put a sock or cloth in his mouth and taped it down. Then, throw a hood, pillow case or shirt over his head. 
• Rick should have went to Alexandria, grabbed some homies and went back to the site.  Open the RV door and trade his peeps for Neegan ( zombie Neegan). 

[J----av]

3 minutes ago, LocimusPrime said:

Ok here's what shoulda happened:

• Neegan was sitting with Rick at the table in the RV.  He had just wiped the axe with alcohol and handed it back to Rick.  Rick should taken the axe and just chopped him, Neegan didn't have his M4 rifle at the table.  Done 
• After killing Neegan, he should have tied his hands behind his back, put a sock or cloth in his mouth and taped it down. Then, throw a hood, pillow case or shirt over his head. 
• Rick should have went to Alexandria, grabbed some homies and went back to the site.  Open the RV door and trade his peeps for Neegan ( zombie Neegan). 

 Sounds like allot of things that could go wrong and get everyone in ricks crew killed

[J----av]

4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

With all of that manpower, in my opinion, they could just as easily grow their own food and improve foraging methods rather than sitting on their asses and stealing it from others.

 How do you know they don't? We don't really know much about Negan and his crew yet

[Raachel2008]

On 24/10/2016 at 0:13 AM, nodorothyparker said:

I seriously cannot get my head around the fact that Kirkman and Gimple and whoever sat around in a room yanking each other's dicks and telling each other that this was going to be great TV.  They put this on TV thinking they'd done something just amazing.  And other people at AMC and wherever looked at it and said, sure.

I don't have the energy for the inevitable tongue bath Hardwick will be giving.

Kind of Eli Roth congratulating himself about Hostel being great filmmaking. Except not. Torture porn is cheap writing, not matter how you look at it. Kirkman can use the good ol' argument about the show following the comics, but that has not always been the case, has it? Also, he is in for the backlash of his life if he does follow the whole Negan arc, but I don't think other people at AMC or wherever will look at it and say sure. 

But honestly, at this point I don't care because I'm out. Not in the "I shall never watch a single scene again ever" sense, but I need a good break. I don't mind the violence,  and yes I've read the comics. But it is one thing to see Negan smashing Glenn's head in a small black and white piece of paper for ten seconds, and a whole different entity to watch Steve Yeun gurgle and have his eye popping out in full color HD int he context of 44 minutes of pure sadism , which is something I don't think Kirkman really understands at all, but whatever.

Someone upthread mentioned how people never kill the big baddie, and this is something I don't get either. You would imagine people being opressed/tortured by somene like Negan would use the first chance to kill him. Can't be that hard in that situation, honestly.

Andrew Lincoln is a terrific actor and deserves an Emmy/SAG nod. Those Saturn and People Choice awards don't do justice to his talent.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Raachel2008

[Bec]

I still think the first season was the best and it has pretty much gone downhill… I am also sick of our gang coming up against another whack job. Sorry, been there done that.

I feel the same way. Even the silly little show Z Nation has more variety when it comes to the obstacles the main characters face while trying to survive in the zombie apocalypse.

There will be no end as long as people keep watching this endless cycle of dog-eat-dog battles.

Eventually they'll run out of characters to kill (that the audience actually care about). In theory, if they changed tacks and made the story about trying to rebuild society, instead of yet another murderous psycho (yawn), the show can still go on and be a cash cow. At this point they are bleeding the cash cow dry.

It's not the depression, boredom, violence and character deaths I mind so much. We've been through all of that before.

It's that I feel like a sucker for sticking around this long after the show toyed with the audience over and over, and show no sign of ever stopping that. You can only do fake-outs and withhold reveals so many times before people get fed up.

I'm getting the sense that the people behind the scenes are patting themselves on the back for being so damn clever and fooling us with their big twists. I've been getting tired of this shit for a while, and this "Abe is the one who gets killed! But wait there's more! HAHAHAHAHA! You thought the others were safe didn't you? HAHAHAHA! We got you good! HAHAHAHAHA!" thing is the last straw.

[AnnaMayWong]

15 hours ago, LadyMustang65 said:

I'm not sure I agree with that. I think it does make sense.  Most people are not really brave - not in the "I can handle the zombie apocalypse" kind of way anyway.  These are people who are just trying to survive.  They lost family and friends in horrific ways.  They've probably all nearly been eaten alive more than once.  And now there's Negan.  We know he intimidates them through torture and punishes them for every infraction, real or imagined.  Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't he chop off that one girl's finger because she either wanted to or tried to find her boyfriend?  So most of them are terrified of him, and the ones who aren't are probably sadistic bullies as well and probably help him enforce 'the law.'  But at least with Negan they are protected from the zombies.  They have a place to sleep, food to eat, a doctor to take care of their ills. And what most of them don't have is the closeness of CDB.  So while they undoubtedly fantasize about killing Negan, the looming fear of what would happen then (or what would happen if I try and fail) stops them.  As long as they don't cross Negan, they're safe . . . or as safe as anyone can be in the ZA. 

And this is where Negan made his mistake.  I don't think Negan can even imagine the kind of bond that CDB has.  And he has no idea what they've already been through.  And he certainly doesn't understand them at all.  For Negan there is no possibility that someone would help just because they're good people.  For him it's only conceivable that people will cooperate through terror and intimidation.  Just my own musings, and I could well be wrong, but if Negan had approached Rick & Co. and said let's work together--I'll help protect your camp, and you help supply my camp--there's a good chance they would have agreed after some careful consideration.  They're at heart all about people being stronger together and working together and surviving together.  Instead, Negan's people attempted to take whatever Rick and his people had.  Rick & Co. are willing to share; they're not at all down with having things taken from them.  So they fight back, which pisses Negan off. 

Anyway, because the CDB folks are a family in every sense of the word except strict biology and they really do care about each other, they are shaken to the core right now and devastated by their loss, but they will heal each other over time and come back stronger than ever and absolutely determined to avenge the deaths of their friends.  I don't get the sense that most of the people in Negan's group have that.  He wouldn't have let that develop, and there's no sense that I get that his traveling band was made up of larger groups like Rick's.  It seems like the larger groups stay in their groups but serve him through fear and intimidation.  So there is no one to give the folks with him strength and determination.  They see their choice as stay with Negan and be as safe as one can be under the circumstances or kill Negan and be on their own again.  Because I don't really see them as considering that they could stay together and be safe.  I just don't see it. 

And Negan has no idea what our group has faced before.  He doesn't know about the Governor, about Terminus, about the Wolves, etc.  Yes, Negan is more brutal than anyone they've faced before, but ultimately he's just one more asshole in a long line of assholes who have taken on our group and temporarily beaten them only to find in the end that it's CDB that lives to fight another day.  It'll take them longer this time, I think, but I fully expect that they will regroup and find their way out of Negan's thrall.  And Negan will never be able to understand why he couldn't dominate them as he has the others.  He's a sociopath, so the idea of love and loyalty is foreign to him.

Anyway, just my thoughts.  I could be way off . . . I often am.  <lol>  And YMMV.  :)

Excellent !  Excellent !

[mandolin]

4 hours ago, J----av said:

 How do you know they don't? We don't really know much about Negan and his crew yet

He said (in the finale I think), that he wasn't going to grow a garden and laughed at the ridiculous thought. 

[zxy556575]

Nice that the vision of a happy ending togetherness meal included napkin rings and a small tablescape.

Edited October 25, 2016 by lordonia

[JackONeill]

1 hour ago, lordonia said:

Nice that the vision of a happy ending togetherness meal included napkin rings and a small tablescape.

It's all about putting together a good spread. I learned that while staying at Terminus.

In retrospect, though, it would have been cool to have seen in that picnic scene a Walker shambling around in the distance.

Edited October 25, 2016 by JackONeill

[queenanne]

On 10/23/2016 at 10:24 PM, jcin617 said:

I know it's the zombie apocalypse and all, and I understand how mob mentality works - but seriously, I can't fathom how all those people are just OK with his methods.   Did he "Carl's Arm" every one them too?

Especially a doctor, assuming one really exists.  I thought, WTF?  How badly do you have to break one past their Hippocratic oath to get them to run around with a Negan? 

On 10/24/2016 at 8:49 AM, nachomama said:

Oh you know they filmed everybody getting whacked just to throw off spoilers but then wanted to use the footage just to show why Rick complied, he imagined them getting killed if he didn't succeed.

But did they, though?  I ask because that would cost money.  I slowed Glenn down, and unless it came up front and I'm an idiot, it was just Rick's flashbacks to Glenn from better days.  No sign of his eventual demise, thus I'm assuming everyone else was just B&W flashbacks to throw us off a few minutes.  Willing to be corrected though.

12 hours ago, jaigurudeva said:

You can bet you'd be knocked out - if not with the first blow to the head with a bat, then certainly the second.  Significant blunt force trauma to the skull causes axonal injury, which disrupts neural transmission and causes traumatic loss of consciousness.  This is different from sharp force trauma; the mechanisms for consciousness are spread through reciprocal connections within the cortices, so someone can remain conscious with a railroad spike through the skull (if it avoids key areas) for this reason.  Blunt force trauma, especially in an open head injury (when the skull structure is compromised, not the skin) to the frontal and pareital lobes (which, among other things, are principal in movement and speech), would be much more devastating.  Even if he were still "conscious," he'd have minimal awareness and focus.  He wouldn't be upright and giving a last goodbye to his wife.  He'd be on the ground going, "Hurbleburble."

Maybe this isn't medicine and science, but I feel like the writers intended wiggle room by his statement where Glenn goes back into long term memory, maybe?  I think we were supposed to think he reached for it with great effort, and could only come up with something he already said to Maggie for maximum poignancy, not in any way that made sense.  

Overall, AL and JDM are acting the hell out of this thing but I do wonder how the latter sleeps at night.  AL with his "This isn't real, is it?  Clearly I am in a nightmare… and yet, here I am" in the Winnebago, was pricelessly clear.  The ladies too; props to their partial emotional collapses at the end.

It is effective taking Daryl as hostage, I'll give them that.  Perhaps that's how Negan got his whole gang - separating out and Stockholming them. 

Edited October 25, 2016 by queenanne

[FierceCritter]

On 10/23/2016 at 10:12 PM, Reghan said:

Ironically we had to put my cat, Maggie, down today.  R.I.P Glenn and Maggie the cat

GEEZE. That made me cry... :(

[FierceCritter]

I wasn't bored by this episode. I was not in a hurry for Negan to shut up. I hated the Governor storyline and I find this villain way more interesting. I am very upset about Glenn and Abe dying, and cried - hard.  I'm REALLY looking forward to Rick making good on his declaration and killing the shit out of Negan (I do hope it's in this season and we won't have to watch them be subservient to Negan TOO long). I will not stop watching this show.

I guess I'm among the minority who didn't hate this episode. The death of 1 cool character (Abe) and one most beloved character (Glenn) yes. But I didn't at all hate the episode.

[Mu Shu]

8 hours ago, J----av said:

 How do you know they don't? We don't really know much about Negan and his crew yet

Because they spend all their time tracking down people to bash them in the head with a bat and take their shit.  They erect time consuming roadblocks.  They have to sit for hours and possibly days while their leader filibusters about shit.  No time for hoeing beans or slopping hogs.  I think it can be assumed that since his minions have spouted ad nauseam that all the stuff they have is Negans that they are parasites who take shit from people instead of getting their own shit.  

[diebartdie]

23 hours ago, Duke2801 said:

<SNIP>

This- exactly!  I mean, I get it, this was NOT an "enjoyable" hour of television.  It was brutal and ugly.  But yes, this MAY just be how the world devolves in a ZA.  Rick and CDB had tried to be the "white hats" in this world as long as they can... but maybe they really will have to turn evil to survive.  <SNIP>

Here's my two cents. That hour of tv was really rough, just so hard to get through and not just the double murder. Seeing Rick being utterly broken like that really did serve the purpose the show runners set out. That hour of tv also broke us, the tv audience. Now some of us have run off in a huff (NEVER WATCHING AGAIN!!!!!) but most of us are still here but why? We've all seen in that one hour two of our very best heroes slaughtered and our #1 hero's SPIRIT slaughtered! Our hope (Glen), our strength (Abe) and our will (Rick) all destroyed! Why aren't we ALL leaving in droves?

Because Glen taught us to believe in a better tomorrow that we can only find together. Because Abe taught us we're stronger together when we protect each other. Because Rick taught us we will find a way forward together. I think we as an audience have internalized these messages and we all believe in our heart of hearts that we ("we" meaning Rick's people + the audience) will not only overcome but we will emerge stronger. I think too that as horrific as it was, it was a lesson Rick HAD to learn otherwise, he was sliding faster and faster into the pit of evil.

Rick and co really seemed to believe that they were now and forevermore the top dogs. They murdered Negan's people in their sleep at the satellite office (by the way, why was their still power at that satellite office?) Just flat out walked in there and stabbed most of them in the head AS IF every single one of those people were Termites when in reality, every one of those people were pretty much just like Rick's group (as far as we know of course). Really only Negan has been shown to be utterly depraved but Negan has one thing that The Guv never had. Negan (so far as has been shown) is honest. He straight up tells people, "give me your shit, scavenge more shit for me or die" instead of the weird front The Gov put on. In other words, Negan isnt trying to wine and dine you, he's raw, unfiltered and completely full of himself.

Rick had to be given a wakeup call before he turned the Alexandrians into something similar to The Saviors. Seriously, Rick already had the attitude of "if they dont give us what we want, we'll just take it" how is that different from Negan except in degree? With Rick's shitty attitude, how long before he pitched a fit that Hilltop hadnt given ASZ "enough" eggs, butter and cheese and then went up to Hilltop and started ripping out some throats until he got "sufficient" eggs? I mean it looked to me that Rick wasn't far off from that so here's Negan to show him right up close and way too personal what exactly that character growth brings you.

NOW Rick and all his people have a chance to actually STOP being so destructive. STOP burning every place to the ground. STOP tearing it up and fleeing into the night. NOW, at last, they can finally lay their burdens down! Rick and everyone can just stop, stop scheming, stop killing, stop hating (well ok never going to stop hating Negan). NOW they can really build up their community. Unfortunately for them they are not building it up out of love but rather due to the gun bat held to their head but regardless, they have to build it up as much as possible and that part of it at least is a good thing.

Things had to change. The way Rick and his people have been doing things since day 1 has always gone horribly wrong. Rick and the gang may be a bit slow to learn a lesson but they are smart and once learned, they know enough to try something new. Even if that something means letting Negan be the boss. We'll see if the boss man offers more than JUST the threat of painful death. It already looks as if Negan's group is really really good at dealing with walkers so maybe that is the one benefit of working for him?

I agree with consensus that overall the story probably would have worked a bit better if Abe had been shown to have gotten the bat at the end of last season and then Glen got the surprise bat this season but what is done is done. I see a LOT of potential with the story now. I've always believed in the promise of ASZ for our people and Ive never wanted to see them on the road yet again. The story now offers the possibility of stability and growth.

[Boofish]

8 hours ago, J----av said:

 How do you know they don't? We don't really know much about Negan and his crew yet

Because in his Zombiesberg address Negan flat out said "I'm not about to grow gardens and shit; that's what I have you people for. You go get shit and give to me. That's how this works"

 

10 hours ago, slf said:

 

This show has a history of making every group CDB comes into conflict with the Evil People and with the Saviors they've just gone a step too far for me. Psychopathy is not something the majority of people result to in desperate situations and history bears that out. Psychopathy is not the natural consequence of trauma, either. This many people going this far off the rails, finding each other, and working together? It boggles the mind. This show is about the ZA, yeah, so I'll suspend my disbelief but this is too much for me. The fantasy has to be grounded and the people, their conflicts, are supposed to provide that.

The evil just makes a bigger impression

The Vatos, The Green Family, The Hilltop, Father Pee Pants, Tyrese/Sasha and the ASZ  (the good)

Woodbury, Terminus, The Wolves, The Saviors, Grady Memorial (to a lesser extent the Claimers and Woodbury The Sequel) (the evil)

[Boofish]

38 minutes ago, diebartdie said:

Here's my two cents. That hour of tv was really rough, just so hard to get through and not just the double murder. Seeing Rick being utterly broken like that really did serve the purpose the show runners set out. That hour of tv also broke us, the tv audience. Now some of us have run off in a huff (NEVER WATCHING AGAIN!!!!!) but most of us are still here but why? We've all seen in that one hour two of our very best heroes slaughtered and our #1 hero's SPIRIT slaughtered! Our hope (Glen), our strength (Abe) and our will (Rick) all destroyed! Why aren't we ALL leaving in droves?

Because Glen taught us to believe in a better tomorrow that we can only find together. Because Abe taught us we're stronger together when we protect each other. Because Rick taught us we will find a way forward together. I think we as an audience have internalized these messages and we all believe in our heart of hearts that we ("we" meaning Rick's people + the audience) will not only overcome but we will emerge stronger. I think too that as horrific as it was, it was a lesson Rick HAD to learn otherwise, he was sliding faster and faster into the pit of evil.

Rick and co really seemed to believe that they were now and forevermore the top dogs. They murdered Negan's people in their sleep at the satellite office (by the way, why was their still power at that satellite office?) Just flat out walked in there and stabbed most of them in the head AS IF every single one of those people were Termites when in reality, every one of those people were pretty much just like Rick's group (as far as we know of course). Really only Negan has been shown to be utterly depraved but Negan has one thing that The Guv never had. Negan (so far as has been shown) is honest. He straight up tells people, "give me your shit, scavenge more shit for me or die" instead of the weird front The Gov put on. In other words, Negan isnt trying to wine and dine you, he's raw, unfiltered and completely full of himself.

Rick had to be given a wakeup call before he turned the Alexandrians into something similar to The Saviors. Seriously, Rick already had the attitude of "if they dont give us what we want, we'll just take it" how is that different from Negan except in degree? With Rick's shitty attitude, how long before he pitched a fit that Hilltop hadnt given ASZ "enough" eggs, butter and cheese and then went up to Hilltop and started ripping out some throats until he got "sufficient" eggs? I mean it looked to me that Rick wasn't far off from that so here's Negan to show him right up close and way too personal what exactly that character growth brings you.

NOW Rick and all his people have a chance to actually STOP being so destructive. STOP burning every place to the ground. STOP tearing it up and fleeing into the night. NOW, at last, they can finally lay their burdens down! Rick and everyone can just stop, stop scheming, stop killing, stop hating (well ok never going to stop hating Negan). NOW they can really build up their community. Unfortunately for them they are not building it up out of love but rather due to the gun bat held to their head but regardless, they have to build it up as much as possible and that part of it at least is a good thing.

Things had to change. The way Rick and his people have been doing things since day 1 has always gone horribly wrong. Rick and the gang may be a bit slow to learn a lesson but they are smart and once learned, they know enough to try something new. Even if that something means letting Negan be the boss. We'll see if the boss man offers more than JUST the threat of painful death. It already looks as if Negan's group is really really good at dealing with walkers so maybe that is the one benefit of working for him?

I agree with consensus that overall the story probably would have worked a bit better if Abe had been shown to have gotten the bat at the end of last season and then Glen got the surprise bat this season but what is done is done. I see a LOT of potential with the story now. I've always believed in the promise of ASZ for our people and Ive never wanted to see them on the road yet again. The story now offers the possibility of stability and growth.

You can't see me stand up and clap but *insert slow dramatic clap here* 

[Cindylou]

Negan = Shane if  Shane had lived.....

[ElleMo]

10 minutes ago, Cindylou said:

Negan = Shane if  Shane had lived.....

I think Rick = Shane.  It just took him longer to get there.

[Scribbles]

Following the discussion about people's thoughts on why someone would follow Negan, I would point to Spencer, Olivia and Tobin.  Those three did not go with the hit squad to kill sleeping Saviors.  They were aware of what was being done and Rick even told them that not everyone had to kill but everyone had to accept it.  Spencer, Olivia and Tobin stand in for your typical population.  Negan has Spencers, Olivias and Tobins too.  People will knowingly passively allow a strong man to do bad stuff they don't want to do themselves.  To quote Abe...that is just the way stuff is (edited for the pg version.

[Christi]

Hey,  I liked Shane!

[Duke2801]

2 hours ago, FierceCritter said:

I wasn't bored by this episode. I was not in a hurry for Negan to shut up. I hated the Governor storyline and I find this villain way more interesting. I am very upset about Glenn and Abe dying, and cried - hard.  I'm REALLY looking forward to Rick making good on his declaration and killing the shit out of Negan (I do hope it's in this season and we won't have to watch them be subservient to Negan TOO long). I will not stop watching this show.

I guess I'm among the minority who didn't hate this episode. The death of 1 cool character (Abe) and one most beloved character (Glenn) yes. But I didn't at all hate the episode.

There are a few of us out there.  Small in numbers but strong in spirit!  ;)

57 minutes ago, Boofish said:

You can't see me stand up and clap but *insert slow dramatic clap here* 

Yes!  I will join you in the slow, dramatic clap.  Great post, diebartdie.

I hate the term "torture porn" because it really does seem to lump all movies and tv shows that depict extreme violence into one lump category.  Some may deem films like High Tension and Martyrs - heck even SAW - as "torture porn" because they do depict a good deal of violence and blood.  But that doesn't mean there is not still a brilliant and emotional film lurking beneath the violence---heck even because of the violence in some cases.  ;)  Now, it might be going a bit too far to label TWD as "brilliant" - LOL - BUT I still don't see Season 7, episode 1 as "torture for the sake of torture."  I saw it as "torture for the sake of moving the plot along."   

[Timetoread]

14 hours ago, Bad Example said:

While this has been explained and my reaction isn't scientific at all, it felt to me that Glenn's last words were his brain just regurgitating its most primal, deepest grooved thought:  Always Find Maggie.  It didn't even seem like he was really there as he said it.  

Amen.  He was mostly dead at that point.  I hope one day it brings Maggie some peace knowing how much he loved her. Some soldiers, dying and in shock, have been known to cry for their mommy before succumbing.  It's not funny or a sign of weakness, it is primal.  The same mechanism that makes people curl into fetal position in times of high stress.  Glen called to Maggie.  Not for her to help him but for him to help her.  :(

 

1 hour ago, Mu Shu said:

Because they spend all their time tracking down people to bash them in the head with a bat and take their shit.  They erect time consuming roadblocks.  They have to sit for hours and possibly days while their leader filibusters about shit.  No time for hoeing beans or slopping hogs.  I think it can be assumed that since his minions have spouted ad nauseam that all the stuff they have is Negans that they are parasites who take shit from people instead of getting their own shit.  

I wonder if we are going to get a surprise that Negan is a Robin Hood.  He takes from survivors to give to those who otherwise wouldn't.  That he's mean and brutal because that is the only thing that makes these disparate bands fall into line, until they are down with the plan.  And the horrible henchmen are his wet works team but that there is a whole society of people who never see this sort of treatment.  Like the Guv.  Just speculating.

10 minutes ago, Christi said:

Hey,  I liked Shane!

Me too and I like Rick too.  I don't believe in the existence if polyanna people like Glenn.  People have flaws.  Shane was flawed but I didn't find him particularly cruel.  Rick is flawed but at his core is brave and loving.  Everyone is a critic but few want the stress and responsibility of having the fates of many in their hands.  I sometimes wonder what TF would be like if Lori died from a bee sting and Shane and Rick led together as partners.  Ok I'll grant that is more fantasy than wonder but still...

[peach]

Since I feel like everything about how Glenn's death was handled (including the after show) was...unsatisfying, I'm just going to leave this here.   RIP Glenn.  RIP Glenn&Maggie. 
 

[ganesh]

I didn't hate the episode either. I was largely bored with all the strutting around and rolled my eyes at the lack of strategy again. I get the point of putting on the show for CDB, but it was overly much. And I don't mind suspenseful talky episodes. There were compelling moments, to be fair.

It seems like the episode lacked a directed narrative and just was a smattering of things. The main point for me was that Negan had to break Rick down to establish his dominance in the group. And there was some of that. I think it could have been more focused though.

I thought someone was going to lose a hand because the ax had taken on so much significance in the episode. With hindsight of a day, I think actually it would have been more interesting to not kill everyone and just chop off Rick's hand. Way back in tribal cultures this was done to leaders to render them were physically unable to lead anymore, since you couldn't hold your weapon in your hand and lead your people into battle. It would have been cool, subtle foreshadowing because Rick's hand had been injured for a while previously. This show ain't doing much with the subtle though. 

[Raven1707]

Ratings are in:

The cliffhanger at the end of Season 6 of “The Walking Dead” worked really well — at least in terms of ratings.

The show returned to its second-best ratings ever Sunday, dominating everything else on TV for the night — including the NFL.

The Season 7 premiere, which revealed who new villain Negan (Jeffrey Dean Morgan) killed with his barbed-wire baseball bat, drew an 8.4 rating among adults 18-49 and 17.03 million viewers. That’s second only to the Season 5 premiere (8.7, 17.29 million) in “Walking Dead” history.

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/daily-ratings/sunday-cable-ratings-oct-23-2016-walking-dead-premiere/

[callmebetty]

6 hours ago, lordonia said:

Nice that the vision of a happy ending togetherness meal included napkin rings and a small tablescape.

My favorite part of that was everyone else was clean and dressed nicely and I think Daryl looked like he always does, greasy hair and dirt. Glad to see he has a style he's sticking with.

[ganesh]

The ratings for the premiere don't seem as important than what the ratings will be for next week. 

[peach]

2 hours ago, Timetoread said:

  I sometimes wonder what TF would be like if Lori died from a bee sting and Shane and Rick led together as partners.  Ok I'll grant that is more fantasy than wonder but still...

I think Rick fantasizes about the same thing.  lol

[dezi]

Torture porn is GoT’s Joffrey, who was already known to be a vile excuse for a human being, brutalising and murdering women no one cared about. It didn’t add anything to the story and it didn’t move anything forward. TWD is far from perfect but I feel like many of the deaths serve a significant purpose and/or reverberate throughout the series, or at least for multiple seasons. Actually, they have often shied away from much of the extreme violence in the source material. Torture porn, in this instance, would have been if it was say Aaron who was beaten to death and by next episode TF are back in Alexandria, unaffected and carrying on as normal. Diebartdie's post explains very well why this episode wasn’t that.   

[AngelaHunter]

4 hours ago, Mu Shu said:

Because they spend all their time tracking down people to bash them in the head with a bat and take their shit.  They erect time consuming roadblocks.  They have to sit for hours and possibly days while their leader filibusters about shit.  No time for hoeing beans or slopping hogs.  I think it can be assumed that since his minions have spouted ad nauseam that all the stuff they have is Negans that they are parasites who take shit from people instead of getting their own shit.  

I still haven't gotten over the roadblocks and the fact that Negan's merry band have  - somewhere - a large number of chainsaws and gas-guzzling heavy equipment/bulldozers to cut down all those large trees (even if they found the logs at a sawmill it's still ridiculous) and drag them out of the forest unto a road, merely to say "Nyah nyah!" to CDB. I can overlook a lot, but that just left me eye-rolling at the outlandishness of it all.

[peach]

3 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

I still haven't gotten over the roadblocks and the fact that Negan's merry band have  - somewhere - a large number of chainsaws and gas-guzzling heavy equipment/bulldozers to cut down all those large trees (even if they found the logs at a sawmill it's still ridiculous) and drag them out of the forest unto a road, merely to say "Nyah nyah!" to CDB. I can overlook a lot, but that just left me eye-rolling at the outlandishness of it all.

Silent chainsaws

[ByTor]

4 hours ago, diebartdie said:

Rick had to be given a wakeup call before he turned the Alexandrians into something similar to The Saviors. Seriously, Rick already had the attitude of "if they dont give us what we want, we'll just take it" how is that different from Negan except in degree? With Rick's shitty attitude, how long before he pitched a fit that Hilltop hadnt given ASZ "enough" eggs, butter and cheese and then went up to Hilltop and started ripping out some throats until he got "sufficient" eggs? I mean it looked to me that Rick wasn't far off from that so here's Negan to show him right up close and way too personal what exactly that character growth brings you.

Perfect summary of why I despise Rick and never saw him as "the good guy" or "our hero."  That being said, as much as I was rooting for Rick to be taken down a peg or two, seeing him in the "chop off Carl's arm" scene was hard on me, I can't imagine how I'd feel if I actually liked him.

[ghoulina]

21 hours ago, lezlers said:

 

Yeesh, I wasn't expecting so much hate on here.  You guys know this show is based on a comic, right?  The show can't veer too far away from the comic so they're fairly constrained with respect to plot lines.  It's not like the show runners just randomly decided to kill him off just to piss off viewers.

 

Why can't it? Veer from the comics, that is? Did the showrunners sign a blood oath with Kirkman? (Actually, at this point they may have.) There are plenty of shows and movies who have used source material as a loose outline, but then did their own thing. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. IMO, a comic is SUCH a different medium. It works to go on and on in this universe, from one thing to the next. On TV? Not so much. It's becoming stale. 

And, speaking for myself, it's not WHO they killed, but HOW. The fake-out, the non-cliffhanger. I just found it all really anticlimactic and disrespectful to a character who's been on as long as Glenn has. 

20 hours ago, Jordan27 said:

I disagree.  I think it was about creating a cliffhanger.   Either way, it wouldn't have changed that much, certainly not in any great way.  It was all everyone talked about during the offseason, so it worked.

I didn't talk about it at all in the offseason. Which was a first for me. I know I'm  in the minority, but I'm also not alone either. If you want to cater to the largest demographic, by all means - go right ahead. That's just not the kind of show I thought I was watching when I first started. A show doesn't have to be hugely popular to be GREAT. This show used to be great, IMO, but it has started to seem like they care more about ratings and shock-n-awe than interesting and powerful storytelling. 

 

17 hours ago, chlban said:

  I dozed off watching some early morning reruns of Mad Men, which definitely is my kind of show, after which they started a Walking Dead marathon. I half dozed during the first episode and I ended up getting hooked by the story and relationships. I have gotten caught up during the endless marathons. I may be the monority, but I still think the first season was the best and it has pretty much gone downhill

I agree. Season one was brilliant. I really loved season 2 and 4 as well. Three wasn't bad, but too much Governor. 

I think they drew in a lot of unlikely viewers because of the attention to the relationships, and going beyond the regular zombie tropes. There was a sadness about the walkers, a lot of respect given to who they once were. My mother is NOT a horror fan and I got her hooked on this show, because she really loved the stories in the early seasons. Now she's starting to complain that she doesn't know if she can take much more. I'm pretty jaded to gore and horror, so i don't care. But I get where she's coming from.This wasn't a typical horror show, but they keep upping the ante with the shocks, pretty soon they're going to run out of ways to freak every one out. They should really return to crafting a good story. 

17 hours ago, BananaRama said:

I wondered the same thing.  Their lives are just awful.  And how are the Alexandrians going to keep up with Negan's supply demands?

They're going to have to turn into bad guys themselves. Which is why they never should have gone this route in the first place. 

Edited October 25, 2016 by ghoulina

[toodywoody]

I guess there just comes a time for me that yes I love gore, but as a TV show and not a movie, I want to see more of how the human race rebuilds, trades with other neighbors, comes up with ways to build walls, plants and harvests crops, while building solutions to get along and rebuild society, maybe not as it was but different and approachable and agreeable. 

For me, I'm sick of every season there being a big bad. I want to see how society and people don't give up and learn how to have running water, electricity and not because of generators. I want the feel of The Stand, good and evil but each group turning back on the lights and learning how to live again in a new world.

[mmecorday]

Thank you, toodywoody! That is exactly how I feel. I would like to think in future episodes we get a sense that humans are taking back control of things. The mood of the show is sometimes so terribly grim I wonder why I bother watching. The season premiere was just so depressing. Abraham and Glen getting killed in such gory detail -- that was bad enough. But then to endure the scenes of Negan degrading and psychologically torturing Rick. It was, no pun intended, overkill in my opinion.

[peach]

How I feel at this point in TWD "journey."

 

[toodywoody]

Well I want to see them making ammunition, figuring out how to make gas. Figuring things out. And yes I understand it's a zombie show, I understand some killing will happen. I want to see them barter some gas for bullets. One society making something another needs and trading. There are still people that have the knowledge of how to do that. Break into places that had medicine and make it, surely not everything is online and still locked up somewhere that can be accessible in case things like the ZA happen. 

I guess what I'm getting at is after so many seasons,  I want to see growth as a society. I understand the need for the first couple seasons to be as survival and learning how to do that. Even baby steps would help me out. Just one person learning how to get the electricity back on. That was one of the appeals of the Stand to me, they came together, cleaned up and started to start over and begin again. BTW that's my favorite King book.

That's why I long for the days the group was washing clothes, eating dinner, hunting dinner, figuring out how to start over and finding a place to fit in. Why couldn't they find some concrete mix at a hardware store and start stocking up that shit and making walls? Just so much more to this whole story besides the latest bad and the badness in humans. 

Edited October 25, 2016 by toodywoody

[NorthstarATL]

8 minutes ago, toodywoody said:

Well I want to see them making ammunition, figuring out how to make gas. Figuring things out. And yes I understand it's a zombie show, I understand some killing will happen. I want to see them barter some gas for bullets. One society making something another needs and trading. There are still people that have the knowledge of how to do that. Break into places that had medicine and make it, surely not everything is online and still locked up somewhere that can be accessible in case things like the ZA happen. 

I guess what I'm getting at is after so many seasons,  I want to see growth as a society. I understand the need for the first couple seasons to be as survival and learning how to do that. Even baby steps would help me out. Just one person learning how to get the electricity back on. That was one of the appeals of the Stand to me, they came together, cleaned up and started to start over and begin again. BTW that's my favorite King book.

They're stuck there, though, in that the TV show is still dependent upon the comics books (See Glenn's death as the most obvious example), and the series is marketed as action/horror/whatever, and people demand to see walkers attack each episode, or complain that it is "filler". A writer who can make an action-y arc complete with walkers/gore/ AND societal advancement would be welcome, though.

  Much as I dislike Negan, though, his introduction  should allow us to see more survivors and give some insight into what has been achieved, if anything.

[ghoulina]

2 minutes ago, NorthstarATL said:

A writer who can make an action-y arc complete with walkers/gore/ AND societal advancement would be welcome, though.

They had one. And they lost him. His name was Frank Darabont and he was a god. 

 

The issue with tying this so closely to the comics is that the comics are still being produced. And comics can go on for years and years and years. But a TV show doesn't necessarily need to. At some point, they're going to have to start thinking of their own end game. How is this story going to leave things? They can't necessarily base that on a comic that currently has no end in sight. IMO, you really should go into a story with a general ending already in mind. That way you write to tell THAT story, and not just to keep prolonging the ratings and keeping the fans happy. 

[toodywoody]

Comics are comics. Hell how many people did Batman put away? But they still made movies that ended with things being solved. 

This is a TV show and ghoulina is right, they need an end game of showing them in a place and things are good, that they have found alot of other people with the same things in mind. Have yourself an army, that protects the people, have the engineers and doctors, have your teachers and researchers. Show that ending and then let the army continue in the comics. 

[Gobi]

I think the point of this episode was to show TPTB's commitment to diversity. "See? We don't just kill off African-American characters, we kill off Asian-American characters, too!" I guess we should be happy that Rosita didn't step up to the plate. Speaking of whom, I wish she would move to the west coast and knock some sense into those FTWD losers.

I also think they put off the deaths because they knew that otherwise everyone would be waiting for Rick to get his revenge right away, and they intend to drag out this Negan storyline for the whole season, if not longer.

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

"See? We don't just kill off African-American characters, we kill off Asian-American characters, too!"

That never occured to me since I've never kept score of ethnic origins of people who died, but Abe, not a visible minority, did bite the dust too.

Quote

This is a TV show and ghoulina is right, they need an end game of showing them in a place and things are good, that they have found alot of other people with the same things in mind.

I'd like that too, but I'm not sure the "all's well that ends well" thing is even possible, at least for this generation of our ZA survivors, who I would imagine can't let go of the life they had pre-ZA. For Carl's generation who will have no real memories of that former life, yes. Earlier on this show reminded me in some ways of Steinbeck's "Grapes of Wrath" which I found spell-binding in spite of being depressing and having no happy ending.

[KirkB]

I hadn't really spared much of a thought for Walking Dead during the off months. No sitting around, speculating who Negan killed. Now part of that is I don't have a wide circle or friends who watch the show. But as the premiere approached I realized something. I don't really care, because it doesn't really matter. Whoever survives here doesn't have anything to look forward to anyway. Their lives are nothing but misery and mourning and waiting around to die, and that's under the best of circumstances. It's grim, and with no hope of anything EVER getting better. Even when they kill off or escape Negan and his crew there'll just be another gang of lunatics around the corner. Or another horde of walkers to trample over whatever home they've set up. And any time one of them has a heart attack or a fatal injury they have to hope someone else is around to stab them in the head or else they'll get back up and start eating people. That's not fun, exciting television, that's just depressing.

[Michel]

23 hours ago, jaigurudeva said:

So I might've sort of laughed when Glenn was giving Maggie the Eeeeevil Eyyyye (American Tail II, anyone?).

It was "Laaaazyyyy Eyyyye."

[ganesh]

2 hours ago, toodywoody said:

Well I want to see them making ammunition, figuring out how to make gas.

I thought Eugene was going to do that? I remember being actually intrigued, but I guess they ended up all caught up in this since. 

36 minutes ago, KirkB said:

I hadn't really spared much of a thought for Walking Dead during the off months. No sitting around, speculating who Negan killed.

There's too much original content on tons of different platforms. I didn't spare much of a thought beyond the subsequent hour, and I moved on to the next shows in my queue. 

[Reghan]

Thank you everyone for the lovely condolence posts about Maggie the cat. We had her for 12 years and she got really sick in the past few weeks. She went from 18 pounds to 8 pounds within 2 weeks and was in a lot of pain so we decided the best thing to do for her was to let her go. She was the family cat and she had a wonderful life.

The cat in my profile pic is NOT Maggie. That cat is Nellie, my baby, she's only 1 and a half so she's got a lot of life ahead of her.

Just wanted to thank everyone and clear that up.

Back to the topic.

I will be watching the 2nd episode. I don't like to judge the seasons based on the first episode. I actually think the 2nd half of the episode wasn't too bad and I especially liked the last 5-10 minutes.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Reghan

[Wryly]

3 hours ago, ghoulina said:

They had one. And they lost him. His name was Frank Darabont and he was a god.

I've heard this guy praised before but have no idea which parts of the writing he's responsible for.

The scene where Negan almost gets Rick to chop off Carl's arm hit me harder than both deaths combined. I knew the writers were going to gut punch us with brutal deaths for shock value, so when it happened, it felt obligatory and I was kind of numb. Sort of "let's get this over with." At this point every villain who is introduced has to kill someone important just to prove their villainous villainy.

I wasn't as prepared for "chop off your son's arm or everybody dies." The situation was not in itself terribly original, but Lincoln's acting was superb and set it apart. By the time he's wailing and lifting the ax, I could barely watch. Talk about humiliating. Carl being brave and telling Rick to do it just topped it all off. Even Negan was more chilling to me here than in any of his self-indulgent monologues. He wasn't pacing around enjoying the sound of his own voice. He was laser focused on completely breaking a human being. Way scarier than "Lucille is thirsty!"

He needs to steer his dialogue away from "strutting rooster" or he'll lose all clout as a badass. Not among his men, obviously. Among the audience. Er. No, actually, I can only speak for myself. He'll lose clout with me. Wow. It sounds way less important when I put it like that. Okay reset. It will make Negan lose clout with all the people in the history of ever. Yeah. I speak for the whole planet. Everybody.

[RabbitEars]

This show has been out of things to say for several seasons. "Zombies bad, other people bad."

Anyway, if Lori could come back in that white dress and haunt Rick, Glenn better come back one day, too. It's only fair. 

Once they're in one place, why not scout out a library and start researching how to do the things that modern society took care of? Making soap? Raising livestock? As mentioned above, making gunpowder?

13 hours ago, lordonia said:

Nice that the vision of a happy ending togetherness meal included napkin rings and a small tablescape.

Looks like someone found a Homegoods. I would watch that episode. 

Edited October 26, 2016 by RabbitEars

[Wryly]

59 minutes ago, RabbitEars said:

Anyway, if Lori could come back in that white dress and haunt Rick, Glenn better come back one day, too. It's only fair. 

You know I bet Glenn wouldn't be confident he could pull off that dress, but I think it would really compliment the lines of his figure. As long as his shoulders and sternum are delicate and soft, which they are, the bare shouldered cut would still look elegant. Perhaps with a nice white leather pocketbook or spaghetti string pouch. So yes, if Lori could come back in it, why not Glenn?

Now when Abraham comes back in the dress I won't be so sure. He has a tricky figure. I don't know who made the decision that all the ghost characters have to appear in Lori's white dress this season.