S07.E01: The Day Will Come When You Won't Be

[LadyMustang65]

12 hours ago, slf said:

Terrible. Just...Negan is surrounded by people he's forced to serve him. Even if there are some that willingly joined they must either be rivaled or outnumbered. And all of these people, armed, don't turn on him? That makes no sense. Just as horrifically murdering two members of Rick's group and threatening Carl makes no sense as motivation for the group. Because now, now it's personal for them. Now they hate Negan, and Negan's people, and have every reason to plot revenge. (And will likely find allies among Negan's people.) 

That makes zero sense.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I think it does make sense.  Most people are not really brave - not in the "I can handle the zombie apocalypse" kind of way anyway.  These are people who are just trying to survive.  They lost family and friends in horrific ways.  They've probably all nearly been eaten alive more than once.  And now there's Negan.  We know he intimidates them through torture and punishes them for every infraction, real or imagined.  Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't he chop off that one girl's finger because she either wanted to or tried to find her boyfriend?  So most of them are terrified of him, and the ones who aren't are probably sadistic bullies as well and probably help him enforce 'the law.'  But at least with Negan they are protected from the zombies.  They have a place to sleep, food to eat, a doctor to take care of their ills. And what most of them don't have is the closeness of CDB.  So while they undoubtedly fantasize about killing Negan, the looming fear of what would happen then (or what would happen if I try and fail) stops them.  As long as they don't cross Negan, they're safe . . . or as safe as anyone can be in the ZA. 

And this is where Negan made his mistake.  I don't think Negan can even imagine the kind of bond that CDB has.  And he has no idea what they've already been through.  And he certainly doesn't understand them at all.  For Negan there is no possibility that someone would help just because they're good people.  For him it's only conceivable that people will cooperate through terror and intimidation.  Just my own musings, and I could well be wrong, but if Negan had approached Rick & Co. and said let's work together--I'll help protect your camp, and you help supply my camp--there's a good chance they would have agreed after some careful consideration.  They're at heart all about people being stronger together and working together and surviving together.  Instead, Negan's people attempted to take whatever Rick and his people had.  Rick & Co. are willing to share; they're not at all down with having things taken from them.  So they fight back, which pisses Negan off. 

Anyway, because the CDB folks are a family in every sense of the word except strict biology and they really do care about each other, they are shaken to the core right now and devastated by their loss, but they will heal each other over time and come back stronger than ever and absolutely determined to avenge the deaths of their friends.  I don't get the sense that most of the people in Negan's group have that.  He wouldn't have let that develop, and there's no sense that I get that his traveling band was made up of larger groups like Rick's.  It seems like the larger groups stay in their groups but serve him through fear and intimidation.  So there is no one to give the folks with him strength and determination.  They see their choice as stay with Negan and be as safe as one can be under the circumstances or kill Negan and be on their own again.  Because I don't really see them as considering that they could stay together and be safe.  I just don't see it. 

And Negan has no idea what our group has faced before.  He doesn't know about the Governor, about Terminus, about the Wolves, etc.  Yes, Negan is more brutal than anyone they've faced before, but ultimately he's just one more asshole in a long line of assholes who have taken on our group and temporarily beaten them only to find in the end that it's CDB that lives to fight another day.  It'll take them longer this time, I think, but I fully expect that they will regroup and find their way out of Negan's thrall.  And Negan will never be able to understand why he couldn't dominate them as he has the others.  He's a sociopath, so the idea of love and loyalty is foreign to him.

Anyway, just my thoughts.  I could be way off . . . I often am.  <lol>  And YMMV.  :)

[Irishmaple]

Negan feels overdone to me. He hits the markers for the Dark TrIad of personality disorders: narcissism, sadism and Machiavellianism. He's like a more organized Joe from the Claimers group, except Joe had more of a collective than an army. I enjoyed Joe because he was believably venal and Jeff Kolb acted the hell out of the part, but I never wondered what made Joe the way he was. Joe was always there, constrained by society while it existed and now free to abuse whoever he wanted unfettered by laws and mores. Negan seems to be just like that. He's not like The Governor who used to be a somewhat normal man before devolving into a  malignant dictator. He's not like Garett who survived unspeakable horrors before turning them into his way of life. Nobody pulverizes heads with that kind of glee unless it was something that used to exist in darkest fantasy before the ZA made it possible to do so freely. Maybe Negan would be more interesting if I knew him from the graphic novels but I don't read them so it just seems to be that this malignant jerk has arrived to dominate the show and I'm not okay with that.

I don't believe he truly "broke" Rick and the others. They all obeyed Negan to protect each other and, as soon as he was gone and everyone was safe, they rose with dignity and took care of each other. This is a group that takes its strength from its bonds. Carl was willing to lose an arm to protect his people, Michonne risked Negan's rage to protect Carl, and Carl himself gave Rick the strength to make the cut for the sake of everyone else. Negan's never seen balls like the ones on these men and women.

[Anosmia]

9 minutes ago, LadyMustang65 said:

 These are people who are just trying to survive.  They lost family and friends in horrific ways.  They've probably all nearly been eaten alive more than once.  And now there's Negan.  We know he intimidates them through torture and punishes them for every infraction, real or imagined.  Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't he chop off that one girl's finger because she either wanted to or tried to find her boyfriend?  So most of them are terrified of him, and the ones who aren't are probably sadistic bullies as well and probably help him enforce 'the law.'  But at least with Negan they are protected from the zombies.  They have a place to sleep, food to eat, a doctor to take care of their ills. And what most of them don't have is the closeness of CDB.  So while they undoubtedly fantasize about killing Negan, the looming fear of what would happen then (or what would happen if I try and fail) stops them.  As long as they don't cross Negan, they're safe . . . or as safe as anyone can be in the ZA. 

This is how I see them, too. I think the majority of them are probably just ordinary folks who are trying to survive/protect their remaining loved ones. Just because they didn't bawl/freak out during last night's brutality doesn't mean that all of them were okay with it. I'm sure some of them are sadists who WERE okay with it, but some of them could have been too terrified to step out of line or even show revulsion/horror/fury at what was happening. Not to mention the fact that some of them may have thought it was somewhat justified simply because they see the CDB folks through a lens of "Well, they killed our people and attacked us. They're the bad guy."

Rick and his people have done some shady things, albeit usually in the name of survival. I really think that Negan and his folks are maybe not so different in the end...they've done what they've done for survival and to eradicate the "bad guys" out there. Maybe it's because I'm a Cold War kid, I don't know, but I'm fascinated by the dichotomy between how groups see themselves vs how they see others, in terms of who is the bad guy. We were of course raised to see the Soviet Union as the bad guy, the mortal enemy, the antithesis of liberty. They were raised to see us the same way. But at the end of the day, they--like us--were just ordinary people living their lives, loving their families, trying to survive, with our governments both doing some shitty and some positive things in the process.

I'd like to learn more about Negan and his people, although not at the expense of propelling the action forward and seeing CDB's hijinx. 

[Iguessnot]

1 hour ago, Scribbles said:

Negan threw Rick's hatchet to the roof.  Rick goes to roof, gets lost in gruesome thoughts and then takes hatchet and jumps to hanging man zombie.  While hanging, Rick dropped the hatchet to the ground.  Thus he finally gets it back after hanging man is stretched too far. 

-

 

I'll have to watch again because I was sure he tossed it into the field. Secondly, if he actually threw it on top of the RV, Rick would have heard the thud as he was still inside the RV, I think.

[LadyMustang65]

4 minutes ago, Iguessnot said:

I'll have to watch again because I was sure he tossed it into the field. Secondly, if he actually threw it on top of the RV, Rick would have heard the thud as he was still inside the RV, I think.

It looked to me like Negan threw the axe out into the zombie horde.  But then there was one on the roof.  Rick took that when he jumped onto the hanging zombie, but then it looked like he dropped it.  But when Rick dropped to the ground, the axe wasn't there by his feet.  He had to go out into the field to find it.  So I was wondering if that's where the one Negan threw landed, and there was a second one of the roof?  It definitely wasn't clear. 

[Scribbles]

5 minutes ago, Iguessnot said:

I'll have to watch again because I was sure he tossed it into the field. Secondly, if he actually threw it on top of the RV, Rick would have heard the thud as he was still inside the RV, I think.

I don't care to watch it again to give you the exact minute mark to see it.  When Negan tosses it to the top of the RV, you do hear the thunk of it landing. Or flash to the hanging man bit and you will see Rick drop it. 

[Boofish]

28 minutes ago, LadyMustang65 said:

And this is where Negan made his mistake.  I don't think Negan can even imagine the kind of bond that CDB has.  And he has no idea what they've already been through.  And he certainly doesn't understand them at all.  For Negan there is no possibility that someone would help just because they're good people.  For him it's only conceivable that people will cooperate through terror and intimidation.  Just my own musings, and I could well be wrong, but if Negan had approached Rick & Co. and said let's work together--I'll help protect your camp, and you help supply my camp--there's a good chance they would have agreed after some careful consideration.  They're at heart all about people being stronger together and working together and surviving together.  Instead, Negan's people attempted to take whatever Rick and his people had.  Rick & Co. are willing to share; they're not at all down with having things taken from them.  So they fight back, which pisses Negan off. 

 

That's why I'm glad Daryl punched him in the face, Abraham told him to suck his nuts and Rick threatened to kill him.  He was only able to break them by threatening Carl.

[rab01]

If they had cut out some of the repetition in last season's finale and put in the two deaths from this show and faded to black on Negan saying to  Rick that he didn't like the look on his face, that would have been a great cliffhanger and you still could have had this episode focus on the threat to Carl's arm being what breaks Rick.  It's really too bad that they chose to end on hiding an identity, rather than on a real cliffhanger ...

Edited October 24, 2016 by rab01

[Scribbles]

5 minutes ago, Boofish said:

That's why I'm glad Daryl punched him in the face, Abraham told him to suck his nuts and Rick threatened to kill him.  He was only able to break them by threatening Carl.

Really?  I can see being glad Abraham gave Negan lip as he fell.  I struggle to be "glad" Daryl punched him or that Rick threatened him.  In both cases they met theats and violence with threats and violence, and were in a position of weakness when the did (thus not smart, tactical, wise or calculating)  We are suppose to believe that Rick was wise enough not to go in outnumbered and without tactical advantage on the road, but so reckless as to threaten the guy with all the advantage in this moment.  Big bad Rick stared the dude with the bloody barbed wire bat and army of other big armed dudes down....I wasn't glad about that.  Would you want to follow a leader who was really willing to keep being "tough" when people are dying and being threatened more because he doesn't know when to fold em?

[ChipBach]

I didn't hate the episode until I got caught up here...  Thanks guys...  ;-)

Actually, great points about the "Dale Memorial Winnebago Ride"...  Maybe the point was to see how adept Rick was in killing some Zombies with his bare hands?  Like a job interview?  At least someone FINALLY articulated that the camper was a piece of crap.  I still contend that there must be thousands of new bus-type campers (bigger and newer) than that piece of dung.  That was about all I appreciated from Negan.

I was hoping the writers would have done a better job of pointing out that Rick was willing to sell-sword his peeps for trade of goods.  This is a fairly slippery slope that may have been partly caused the braining of two of his people.

[islandgal140]

I went into this episode completely fresh and unspoiled. I avoided all spoilers and I have to say, I didn't hate this episode. It wasn't the best but it wasn't the worst. I admit that in the moment I found it harrowing. But upon reflection, I just found it a bit nonsensical and the villain of the piece illogical.  Why expend so much man power, spend a day or maybe more blocking roads with logs and than an entire night torturing a handful of people while some blowhard pontificates? For what exactly? Another handful of people to forage for scarce supplies?  I get there is no more tv, wifi or netflix but damn, get a hobby! Why keep the leader alive especially after he threatens you? Why take Rick on some stupid run, throw an axe on a camper roof, demand Rick go get it out on a foggy road crawling with walkers only to save him several times but expending precious bullets? I guess the producers partly did their jobs because there is no other way to ascribe this behavior to anyone other than a pure sadistic psychopath. 

What pissed me off this episode is the additional twenty minute wait to see who was killed and the Carl torture porn. I'm actually glad that the producers didn't cop out and killed Glen. When I thought it was just Abe getting the Lucille special, I actually was a bit upset. Not that I wanted to keep him on or anything. His death was kinda telegraphed being that he was happy, content and looking forward to a future with Sasha, but the death of a someone from Rick's inner circle and a show artery like Glen is resounding and needed. That was impactful and was Glen struggling to speak after the blow. 

I thought all the actors did well this episode with a special shoutout to Sonequa Martin-Green. I am a little torn on JDM.  He is so smiley sometimes but maybe he is directed to play it that well. He is a hot bitch though. No way do I believe he can one handedly drag Rick and throw him into a trailer with those scrawny arms and narrow shoulders. Nope!

I used to be mildly amused and then eye roll those 2 minute little Fear the Walking Dead vignettes. Now they just make me ragey. I FF that shit with extreme prejudice after the past season. I can't quit TWD but I have quit FTWD. 

[Iguessnot]

19 minutes ago, Scribbles said:

I don't care to watch it again to give you the exact minute mark to see it.  When Negan tosses it to the top of the RV, you do hear the thunk of it landing. Or flash to the hanging man bit and you will see Rick drop it. 

I will have to put my hearing aids in on rewatch, but was that a thunk of a "roof landing"? That wouldn't be a subtle sound at all.

[BloatedGuppy]

1 minute ago, islandgal140 said:

Why keep the leader alive especially after he threatens you?

I actually think this was reasonably well covered...in the comic. Rick offers himself up, and Negan points out his position as the leader, all the stuff he's gone through, his missing hand (in the comic), and says if he kills Rick he'll just be making a martyr of him. The badass leader who sacrifices himself for his people. He doesn't want Rick dead. He wants Rick broken. He identifies Rick as the spine of the group, and he wants to break the spine. Break Rick, break the group. He wants them docile and servile.

Obviously it'll end up being a mistake long term because this isn't The Negan Variety Hour, but from the looks of his organization that method of dealing with unruly elements has been working handsomely thus far.

[Iguessnot]

3 minutes ago, ChipBach said:

I didn't hate the episode until I got caught up here...  Thanks guys...  ;-)

Actually, great points about the "Dale Memorial Winnebago Ride"...  Maybe the point was to see how adept Rick was in killing some Zombies with his bare hands?  Like a job interview?  At least someone FINALLY articulated that the camper was a piece of crap.  I still contend that there must be thousands of new bus-type campers (bigger and newer) than that piece of dung.  That was about all I appreciated from Negan.

I was hoping the writers would have done a better job of pointing out that Rick was willing to sell-sword his peeps for trade of goods.  This is a fairly slippery slope that may have been partly caused the braining of two of his people.

This couldn't be the RV from Georgia. It's funny the show tries to claim they are a few miles from D.C. in Alexandria. Anyway Chris mentioned on TD the group wandering around Georgia and nobody corrected him.

[kia112]

4 minutes ago, Iguessnot said:

I will have to put my hearing aids in on rewatch, but was that a thunk of a "roof landing"? That wouldn't be a subtle sound at all.

I heard it. It's there. Granted, upon first watch I thought he threw it out in the crowd, but he definitely didn't.

[ChipBach]

1 minute ago, Iguessnot said:

This couldn't be the RV from Georgia. It's funny the show tries to claim they are a few miles from D.C. in Alexandria. Anyway Chris mentioned on TD the group wandering around Georgia and nobody corrected him.

Then they are stupid if they found a matching crap RV...

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

Oh, and BTW...The dude playing Negan is physically so not intimidating.

Quote

 No way do I believe he can one handedly drag Rick and throw him into a trailer with those scrawny arms and narrow shoulders. Nope!

Definitely. They needed to find some big bear of a man, someone physically imposing who looks like he could drag the struggling Rick as though he were a child or a sack of potatoes. This Negan is not it.

[Iguessnot]

4 minutes ago, ChipBach said:

Then they are stupid if they found a matching crap RV...

Yep, they arrived in Alexandria on foot, nearly feral, and reduced to trying to feed Judith acorns.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Iguessnot

[Boofish]

17 minutes ago, Scribbles said:

Really?  I can see being glad Abraham gave Negan lip as he fell.  I struggle to be "glad" Daryl punched him or that Rick threatened him.  In both cases they met theats and violence with threats and violence, and were in a position of weakness when the did (thus not smart, tactical, wise or calculating)  We are suppose to believe that Rick was wise enough not to go in outnumbered and without tactical advantage on the road, but so reckless as to threaten the guy with all the advantage in this moment.  Big bad Rick stared the dude with the bloody barbed wire bat and army of other big armed dudes down....I wasn't glad about that.  Would you want to follow a leader who was really willing to keep being "tough" when people are dying and being threatened more because he doesn't know when to fold em?

Yep. Because at that point they had nothing to lose and it was totally in character. These people are never quiet and docile. Same with Terminus - tied up, no advantage - still talks trash. 

[tina.gaspard]

Am I the only one who feels like Negan and the Saviors were modeled after Hopper and his Grasshopper Gang from "A Bug's Life?" That's all I could think of when he talked about his "offering".

[candall]

Can't find a Negan thread, so putting this here.

In Grey's Anatomy, JDM felt believable as someone Izzie could mess up her life for, and obsess about as "the great love of my life, lost."  The last couple of seasons of The Good Wife, he was pretty convincing--just leaning in the doorway all the time and smiling--as someone (again) for whom you might put your whole pinball game on Tilt.

I'm trying to say that I've seen this guy be extremely magnetic, so I don't know why they oil slicked his hair down and dressed him in a really stupid "two sizes too-small ladies' moto jacket" instead of pulling out all the stops for the charm the actor's capable of projecting.  Isn't that supposed to be the giant contradiction to Negan's brutality? 

It's odd, because so many people are asking "What's so mesmerizing about this guy that no one just shoots him?  All he does is talk too much and bash in heads."

 

[Yes, YMMV!  I know JDM's "look," with the bedroom twinkle eyes and pearly dimple smile, has always had many detractors.  But it's usually more love him or hate him than "meh."]

[lulee]

Evidence for how long Negan droned on with his speechifying?
It was dark out when Abe and Glenn were killed but light out when Rick got taken to the woodshed --- I mean RV.

What I expected Negan to say at some point:

[Boofish]

I don't think you have to be a "big muscled brawny guy" to be intimidating and scary (see Rick Grimes and Gareth) just like I didn't believe Jesse should have looked like a VS model for Rick to fall in love with her .. 

[JackONeill]

To restate what's been said: I don't like Saw-like movies. They are gore for gore's sake. I prefer stories about fright and terror. I liked Halloween and Blair Witch. I think Saw like movies require a smaller mind to make because with those movies the only quota is how many fake blood bags you go through in a day. There's no finesse and skilled required, despite the seeming fascination with special effects.

Hubris is part of literature, and just because Rick et al got their come-uppance dies not make TWD literary. It's pretend literary. It's a child's version of Moby Dick, a cartoon if you will. It is NOT Moby Dick.

One other thing that really pisses me off and I think it goes to show how cruel Kirkman and his little Dr. Evil are: they had all their actors get beaten by a bat ALL because they didn't want spoilers getting out. So they subjected their actors to having to experience getting beaten to death. It had nothing to do with the story. Nothing. It just shows how resentful TPTB are of their own fans. ("How dare those little shits learn something about our show." -- Guess what, assholes? Those little shits are why your show is popular.) so, TPTB not only shit on their fans but on their actors. If I were Chandler Riggs I'd check to see if what they put him through wasn't some form of child abuse. (I know. He's no doubt signed all kinds of waivers and releases.)

[JackONeill]

12 minutes ago, candall said:

It's odd, because so many people are asking "What's so mesmerizing about this guy that no one just shoots him?  All he does is talk too much and bash in heads."

 

They probably didn't shoot him because they were never sure when he was done talking. Strike one for being polite.

[Mu Shu]

4 hours ago, ghoulina said:

This is my new mantra. 

 

I was kind of hoping the same thing. Out of Maggie and Glenn, I'm just more attached to Glenn. He was the first laugh this show ever got out of me. And yea, I get they will be having kids and repopulating, but knowing this show, they just won't do it in a believable way (she already had an ultrasound ffs!), so I'm not looking forward to that particular storyline. 

I wish they would have had the balls they think they do and killed Maggie.  Glenn is better at portraying grief, and we would be rid that stupid accent and haircut. I have never had two shits to give about the Maggie character, probably because I find the actress horribly wooden.   If they really wanted to shock people, they would have taken out Darryl and Maggie.     even before the spoilers I thought it would be Abe.  Glenn was just an afterthought, because comics.

[ghoulina]

4 hours ago, Duke2801 said:

This- exactly!  I mean, I get it, this was NOT an "enjoyable" hour of television.  It was brutal and ugly.  But yes, this MAY just be how the world devolves in a ZA. 

For me, while the gore was hard to watch - that wasn't really the problem I had with the episode. It was Negan giving 10 hour monologues and being showcased as this "charming" and "funny" villain....and THEN he brutally bashes someone's skull in. Nope. Not having it. Stop trying to make Negan cool, because he sucks. 

 

3 hours ago, valandsend said:

This is an interesting reflection of today's viewing habits. Why, in the 1980s, during the days of my youth (said in my best old-man voice), we actually would speculate about what the summer cliffhanger for any given series would be. We expected it, and we liked it! And then, if the cliffhanger was resolved in the first episode of the new season, we considered ourselves lucky. Those were the days ... unless you missed the season finale as it aired or your VCR didn't work, then you'd probably missed it forever.

I guess the issue for me is, I don't see it as a cliffhanger. To me, a true cliffhanger is where both the audience and characters are in suspense. But in the finale for last season, we HEARD someone getting killed, but they just didn't show us. So CDB already knew who was dead, but we didn't. It just felt really cheap. The end of season 4 was a true cliffhanger - CDB trapped in the train car. They don't know what the fuck they're going to do, and neither do we. 

They just handled this all wrong, IMO. And the Glenn fakeout just made it worse, because that made me really suspect he die at the end of the season and it lost a lot of the impact when it was finally revealed. I just think Stephen deserved better than that. And, really, there was too much anticipation about "Negan!" I feel like they built the entire season around his group showing up in episode 8, and him showing up in episode 16. They filled in the rest however they could. People knew way too much about him by that point, and had really good guesses about what he would do. It makes it seem like TWD is more about hype than actual storytelling. 

3 hours ago, Ohwell said:

Well, it could be argued that everyone in the ZA is on borrowed time.  The fact was, though, that the Alexandrians weren't bothering anyone and Rick & Co. came in and fucked things up for them.

Except the scouts (Aaron and Eric) sought THEM out and WANTED to bring them in. They knew that CDB were tough and would be good assets to the community. If they were wrong, and I'm not convinced that they were, that's on them for taking that risk. They interviewed everyone, they asked them to stay. It's not like Rick's group scaled the walls, tied up Deanna, and took over. 

 

3 hours ago, dannymoon said:

Nothing again Abe, but his death isn't the same impact.

I feel like they used Abe. They wanted to give us a sense of safety, and be surprised when another person was killed. 

 

2 hours ago, Scribbles said:

My problem with this episode the source material is not better than what they can do with a film adaptation and they chose too much of the source material.  Thus Negan was a blabber mouth and we got gore for gore's sake.  Usually the book is better than the movie/film.  With the surplus of comic book to film we have these days, we see the exceptions to that general rule of thumb more often.   The more the show follows Kirkman's follies and discards the opportunities it has, the less compelling it is for me.

So agree. I don't read the comics, but I feel like I have a general impression just because of internet chatter. It seemed, for awhile, the show was doing it's own thing - following the general outline, but making calls to veer off on another path when it suited the television medium better. But it seems lately they've been adhering to the comic at all costs. I mean, Cudlitz even remarked on TTD that he knew he was "on borrowed time" since Denise took his character's death. Um, there is at least one person still on this show that died many years ago in the comics. So...who cares? I think Kirkman has way too much power over this series and it drives me mad. 

[piequinn35]

Brutal and disappointing but we will still watch it.

[Anela]

I mentioned in the spoiler thread, that this was not enjoyable for me. Having lost five family members over the past year (mother, three aunts, and one uncle just two weeks ago), I'm really not up for more death. I didn't "sign up" for a show about people dying at the hands of sadistic dickheads - I knew nothing about the comic, when I started watching, six years ago. 

I don't know. I remember being disappointed last year, when we wouldn't be on the forums for about six months, because I like the people here, and would always come right to the episode thread after watching. Today, I'm wondering why I'm sitting here, and reading more, let alone thinking about this episode and talking about it, when we've lost two cast members to someone who wasn't hugged enough as a child, and talks too damned much. 

@Reghan I'm sorry to hear about your cat. ♥ I lost my last little dog, almost a year ago, and one of my cats was very sick over the last few weeks. Thankfully, antibiotics and fluids helped him. 

[AngelaHunter]

8 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

I guess the issue for me is, I don't see it as a cliffhanger. To me, a true cliffhanger is where both the audience and characters are in suspense. But in the finale for last season, we HEARD someone getting killed, but they just didn't show us. So CDB already knew who was dead, but we didn't. It just felt really cheap. The end of season 4 was a true cliffhanger - CDB trapped in the train car. They don't know what the fuck they're going to do, and neither do we. 

 

Exactly. It was NOT a cliffhanger. It would have been had it ended with Negan threatening to beat the holy hell out of someone, and no one in CDB knew who. "Cheap" and "schlocky" were the words I used.

ETA: Anela - omg. So sorry to hear all that.

Edited October 24, 2016 by AngelaHunter

[Anela]

I lost my mother, three months ago today, and my uncle's funeral was last Thursday, so the last part, with everyone stunned, and figuring out what came next - too much for me.

 

Oops, sorry, I thought that would merge with my other post. Thank you @AngelaHunter ♥ I only mentioned it, because of the few people who think that viewers are being silly if we're turned off by this. 

Edited October 24, 2016 by Anela

[Dakisela]

17 hours ago, Boofish said:

My boyfriend looks like JDM. He is not getting laid tonight 

Lucky you, though!

[Scribbles]

14 minutes ago, Mu Shu said:

I wish they would have had the balls they think they do and killed Maggie.  Glenn is better at portraying grief, and we would be rid that stupid accent and haircut. I have never had two shits to give about the Maggie character, probably because I find the actress horribly wooden.   If they really wanted to shock people, they would have taken out Darryl and Maggie.     even before the spoilers I thought it would be Abe.  Glenn was just an afterthought, because comics.

I am quoting and liking your comment because it hits on some things I have been wrestling with after seeing what I saw last night.  I do not think they needed two deaths and actually think they created a problem they will be tripping over going forward.  How many deaths will it take to make for a big episode next time?

I think I should have really felt Maggie's pain last night, but I didn't at all.  I wasn't pulled into her moment.  Instead I honestly immediately thought: Yuk, her without him going forward is not so appealing to ponder.  On the other hand, if Negan had killed her I would have been saddened because of all Glenn lost.

More and more the words "because comics" are beginning to mean here comes spectacular fodder I am not entertained by for me.

[Boofish]

1 minute ago, Dakisela said:

Lucky you, though!

Yeah he's hot (and Italian) .. I'm going to be Michonne and he is going to be Negan. I wanted him to be Rick but the resemblance is just too good to let it go to waste

[bookrat]

I don't understand why the entire group just didn't attack Negan after Daryl punched him. They just saw Abe brutally murdered. Wouldnt' it be better to be shot attacking Negan than just sitting there doing nothing while Daryl tried to take him down on his own? If they all attacked him after Daryl punched him, who knows? Maybe one of them could have been able to bash him with the bat or slit his throat.

[Duke2801]

21 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

For me, while the gore was hard to watch - that wasn't really the problem I had with the episode. It was Negan giving 10 hour monologues and being showcased as this "charming" and "funny" villain....and THEN he brutally bashes someone's skull in. Nope. Not having it. Stop trying to make Negan cool, because he sucks. 

I understand what you are saying.  I - personally - just don't see it as the writers expecting us to see him as funny or charming.  I think we're supposed to see him as a psychotic monster who uses "humor" as part of his sadism. I just don't see his "jokes" as things that we - the viewers - are supposed to find amusing. I think we're supposed to be even more horrified that somebody would make jokes after bashing somebody's brains in.

But that is just how I see it.

[HighMaintenance]

Negan is illogical in his actions, or at the very least he only plans for the immediate term without regard to longer term consequences. Why take Rick out in the RV to "break him" with the distinct possibility that Rick would be bitten, or killed during his little hatchet hunt?  Where would Negan's game leave him then?  

Another example, Negan instructs the Saviors, as we've seen in season 6, to kill everyone they come across and take all their stuff.  They don't care about the possibility that they could feasibly run across a Doctor? A weapons expert?  A farmer? An engineer? A mechanic?  Anyone with practical skills that could help his group?   How does one get to become a Savior rather than an indentured servant, anyway?  Do you have to have your own leather jacket or do you just need to look like an ex-con?

His reaction to the loss of 30-50 of his people seemed more like one of annoyance than the sense of any sentimental/emotional "loss".  Those folks were his property or front line soldiers used as a disposable commodity.  So, consequently he's going to submit CDB to be his "slaves" and put their skills to use scavenging, growing crops, etc. while back at base, the Saviors practice looking intimidating and rehearsing smack talk?

[Mu Shu]

3 hours ago, scrb said:

You know what would be a satisfying end for Negan?

Someone hit him in the Adam's Apple or damage his vocal chords so he can't talk, let him blubber for awhile because he can't speak, then finish him.

I wish someone would just fill a giant rubber ball with oil and drop on his head.  He deserves an ignominious death.   

[rab01]

4 minutes ago, HighMaintenance said:

Negan is illogical in his actions, or at the very least he only plans for the immediate term without regard to longer term consequences. Why take Rick out in the RV to "break him" with the distinct possibility that Rick would be bitten, or killed during his little hatchet hunt?  Where would Negan's game leave him then?  

Another example, Negan instructs the Saviors, as we've seen in season 6, to kill everyone they come across and take all their stuff.  They don't care about the possibility that they could feasibly run across a Doctor? ...

Maybe he figured that If Rick couldn't survive, he wasn't much use. I'd say he wanted to get Rick used to following orders as the first step towards taming him. As for the other saviors on the road, that's not quite fair - they're told to take all the stuff and leave the people (or all but one of the people) alive. 

It's true that Negan took the loss of his men weirdly unpersonally. Maybe his supply situation is a lot worse than his manpower situation. For me, the rational part of my brain is saying that Negan is being a LOT more merciful than Rick would have been in his place. Rick would have said "we can't take a chance" and knifed every last one of the group on the ground.  In other words, if Negan didn't monologue and smile when he swung his bat, we wouldn't be able to tell he's the villain. I'll root for CDB throughout this plotline but I'm always going to remember that they started this war with a sneak attack and slaughter of sleeping people.

[Ohwell]

I swear, when Negan dragged Rick's ass into that trailer, I actually thought he was going to rape Rick.  That seems like something Negan would do to humiliate a guy. 

[briochetwist]

12 hours ago, GaT said:

I didn't watch the episode, I just read the comments. Then I deleted the episode from the DVR & canceled my future recordings. I am done.

Glenn was in the middle of his head bashing and I did the same. I think I'm done too.

[JackONeill]

22 minutes ago, rab01 said:

It's true that Negan took the loss of his men weirdly unpersonally. Maybe his supply situation is a lot worse than his manpower situation. For me, the rational part of my brain is saying that Negan is being a LOT more merciful than Rick would have been in his place. Rick would have said "we can't take a chance" and knifed every last one of the group on the ground.  In other words, if Negan didn't monologue and smile when he swung his bat, we wouldn't be able to tell he's the villain. I'll root for CDB throughout this plotline but I'm always going to remember that they started this war with a sneak attack and slaughter of sleeping people.

Unfortunately, this is very true. CDB are no saints, and they've murdered many people (most with just cause). But killing Negan' people in their sleep? Sure, like Rick, we sort of knew what would happen if we didn't act. still, we murdered people IN THEIR SLEEP. But, as Morgan suggested, we could have talked to Negan first. Alas, we didn't.

Edited October 24, 2016 by JackONeill

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

I swear, when Negan dragged Rick's ass into that trailer, I actually thought he was going to rape Rick.  That seems like something Negan would do to humiliate a guy. 

Check out fanfiction. Seems there's more than a few people who really get turned on by that idea, described in nasty detail. Yuck.

Quote

. Wouldnt' it be better to be shot attacking Negan than just sitting there doing nothing while Daryl tried to take him down on his own?

I've never been in that situation, but the will to survive is the strongest human instinct. Seeing as how Negan's men were all standing there armed with automatic weapons, everyone would be killed and I doubt anyone wants to die.  As my mother used to say, "Where there's life, there's hope."

[Dobian]

2 hours ago, kj4ever said:

Oh, and BTW...The dude playing Negan is physically so not intimidating.  I think if I was pissed enough *I* could kick his ass.

They went for an actor who could project menace and bravado more than simply someone who is 6-4 and 250.  And remember, maybe Daryl could have kicked his ass one-on-one, or Rick, or Abe, or you.  But Negan's power comes from the fact that he has a whole army behind him and he gets to swing his bat with no repercussions.

[deedee]

18 hours ago, Red Fields said:

I expected it to be Glenn because of the dumpster fake out last season. Abe's death surprised me. Neither really had an impact on me with respect to the loss of the character. The sadistic, graphic killing, OTOH, repulsed me. Watching zombies get dispatched or zombies killing humans is fine. Watching a human brutally, over the top, literally pulverizing, murder another human, was disgusting and not something I want to watch.

This times a million. 

[tvsoothesthespirit]

Quote

That was one tedious episode. Luckily I was able to fast forward most of it and watched the entire thing in less than 15 min.

I think it took me 20 minutes but we're on the same page. I basically turned this into one of those catch up clip shows that preview before the season.

Now I'm free to look forward to this coming season, which I think is kind of make or break for the show.

I was pleased that Negan wants his first delivery in a week. Hopefully things will move more quickly now!

[Dr.Jacoby]

18 hours ago, festivus said:

I was spoiled for this because I needed to know who dies and I was prepared for that but I think they went too far. I'm a huge horror movie fan and I have seen it all but I had to look away from Glen. That was just too much for me. I'll never be watching this episode again.

I felt exactly the same- I love horror films and gore doesn't usually bother me, but dragging out Glen's death and having him trying to talk with a catastrophic head injury was far too much for me, I had to look away, not something I've had to do with twd before, too grim! 

[RedheadZombie]

17 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I wasn't spoiled per se, but everyone I know was pretty sure that Abe and Glen would die. I still thought it was a sad moment. I do have an issue with the extreme violence though. The show cuts off swear words, but thinks its ok to show heads bashed against the ground. I never mind the gory zombies, but this just kind of made me sick. 

It makes no sense that Negan wouldn't kill Rick. By killing Rick, he is breaking apart the group and the group will be looking for a new leader. By keeping Rick alive-he is creating a group of people under an enraged leader who will stop at nothing to get revenge. Of course I'm not sure what Rick's group can even do for Negan. Unlike Woodbury, I don't understand Negan's requirement of so many groups of people to 'produce'. Produce what? One group is already growing crops. How much can Negan's guys eat? ****I also don't see Negan's group as being so dumb or cowed that they wouldn't try to rebel; they could easily take him down. Don't they get it that whatever Negan does to other people, can be done to them. When they all have guns and he is standing around with a bat would be the ideal time. ****

I feel sad about Glen, a little sad about Abraham and I'm glad Carl didn't lose his arm since Carl walking around with one eye and one arm would be beyond silly. 

****At the risk of sounding like I'm defending Negan (I am not), a lot of his people probably are cowed - the same way Rick and his group are.  But maybe his enforcers stick with Negan because he outlines in black and white his expectations, and follows through as threatened.  Maybe they even find Negan to be merciful when he intended to kill only one in retaliation for the many that Rick's gang killed.  I don't know, since we don't know much about this guy yet.  Maybe his group is content because they receive plenty of food and provisions under Negan, which may be an improvement from before they joined him.  Or maybe it's just a matter of time until they over throw Negan.  The governor had his patsies that happily followed his commands.  Merle, for one.  Merle had absolutely no issues with the governor's violence until his baby bro was in danger.

[Ohwell]

24 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Check out fanfiction. Seems there's more than a few people who really get turned on by that idea, described in nasty detail. Yuck.

Oh my, I didn't know this.  Yuck, indeed.

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

 I'm a huge horror movie fan and I have seen it all but I had to look away from Glen.

I love horror too, but traditionally horror did not rely on gore/torture porn which now it seems to. The only time on this show I had to look away was the Termites cutting throats at the killing trough, and yeah - Daryl eating a worm. The rest of the gore I found to be so cartoonish and overdone it didn't bother me.