Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Heathen]

18 hours ago, greenturtle36 said:

It was baby #4.  And every photo of Josh and Anna about the pregnancy of baby #4, he looked "thrilled" (sarcasm).  

Josh said in the beginning he'd be fine with "one or two".   Anna wanted all the kids.  I can't believe with as much independence and money he had in DC, he didn't go get a vasectomy.  But he probably believed the myth that a vasectomy makes sex less pleasurable, and refused to use condoms for that reason too.  

 

Or the SOTDRT taught him that vasectomy is the equivalent of castration. 

14 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Marcus. I'm about 95% sure. So yeah, he was already done by the third kid. 

Yes, he was clearly done by the third pregnancy. I feel sorry for Marcus and the subsequent Ms. Speaking from experience, it sucks to know your parent doesn't want you. 

[SusanM]

I will always remember Anna saying they hadn't "chosen their letter yet" when she was pregnant with the first baby.  Josh may not have been on board but right from the get go Anna clearly saw them as the next generation 19 kids and counting.  Wouldn't surprise me if she intended to hit the 20 mark.  Everytime I find myself feeling sorry for her I remind myself that she joined this family with her own agenda.  Didn't work out for her because she married Josh "it's all about ME" Smuggar.

[GeeGolly]

Fundy women don't have the best options for husbands, nor time to really get to know them, so I have no problem with Anna 'marrying up'. She lived in cramped quarters, in a family that seemed to be on a tight budget. Nothing wrong with recognizing that and "praying" for more.

I'm guessing in the world of Fundies, the Duggar brothers (excluding the Felon), are still considered a catch, in spite of their felon brother.

With that said, it didn't turn out all that great for Anna, but I don't begrudge her for trying (and sadly failing) to improve her life.

[SusanM]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

With that said, it didn't turn out all that great for Anna, but I don't begrudge her for trying (and sadly failing) to improve her life.

Agreed that she probably did think marrying a Duggar was a step up - where I grit my teeth with her is that she thought that popping out 19 kids was something to emulate.  Most crazy fundie families do seem to stop at some point before the hit that kind of mark.  I don't think (and of course this is just my opinion) that Anna intended to stop with a mere half dozen or so - she was shooting to surpass Michele and Jim Bob.  And that's on her.  I don't see any reason to believe that Josh wanted this.  Sure he doesn't seem to have actively tried to prevent it but I guess he figured Daddy would support them and Anna would do the raising so he would just go along for the ride.

 

[BigBingerBro]

Anna certainly had her eye on the prize in emulating MEShelle and becoming the 2.0 M version.   A life of free travel, houses, clothes, TV shows, on and on.  The bubble had now been burst many times over.  Makes me wonder if she thinks there may be some sort of redmeption for her and her family, thus the "There's more to the story" or whatever nonsense she posted.  

[YupItsMe]

2 hours ago, SusanM said:

I don't see any reason to believe that Josh wanted this.  Sure he doesn't seem to have actively tried to prevent it but I guess he figured Daddy would support them and Anna would do the raising so he would just go along for the ride.

 

Kind of worked out that way too.

[Minivanessa]

2 hours ago, SusanM said:

I don't think (and of course this is just my opinion) that Anna intended to stop with a mere half dozen or so - she was shooting to surpass Michele and Jim Bob.  And that's on her.  I don't see any reason to believe that Josh wanted this.  Sure he doesn't seem to have actively tried to prevent it but I guess he figured Daddy would support them and Anna would do the raising so he would just go along for the ride.

I think you nailed it there. IMO, it's not just as to how many kids his wife's popped out. The FF has been basically riding along on whatever his parents provide for him, all his life.

I think the only time he showed real initiative was landing the FRC job; I don't think JB would have set FF up in a job so far from the TTH. But of course the FRC job went poof - and the FF was back on his dad's payroll again. Going through the motions of running the "used car business" his dad gave him while indulging his nasty/criminal personal pleasures in the privacy of the car lot shed. I'm sure he never had to worry about where his next meal was coming from or how to pay the bills to keep the lights on at home. He's such a slug.

[LilyD]

I believe that Anna was told to be an obedient wife and mother to at least a dozen kids from the moment she was born. You’d need someone to show or tell you other ways and a good and lengthy exposure to the real world to change your views or consider other options. (Knowing those exist is not enough) and Anna had neither. She was just trying to lead the life she was taught and shown by growing up in that cult. So every new baby was probably a confirmation to her that she was doing exactly what God, her parents and her religious community expected from her. 
 

I have also wondered about her staunch support for Josh. And again, it wouldn’t surprise me if any doubts she voiced was silenced, “preached and prayed away” or talked out of her head by a continuous bombardment of her duties as a wife. And there is also another option; such religious cults are also known to use blackmail and threats: If you abandon your husband, you’ll be shunned or have your kids taken away. 
 

I’m no fan of Anna, but I don’t think her life or course of action is simple. Neither do I believe she has many options as a single, uneducated woman/mother with no real working experience, no funds and no family or friends to help her. (Just think about those who leave the Amish for instance. They no longer exist to their family, not even to their own parents…) The most likely scenario is that she is staying because she has no choice.

 

[Cinnabon]

19 hours ago, Hpmec said:

And those two barely knew each other before they tied the knot and were never alone together, so an issue as important as how many kids each realistically wanted never came up. She probably assumed that since they were both taught that children are blessings from God, he'd want a steady stream, too. Not so. He was done after that "1 or 2" but probably afraid to get a vasectomy in case someone found out and ratted him out. He was never concerned with the morality of his actions -- only with getting caught. Pest was born into the wrong family. He needed parents who would have recognized and dealt with his perversion with intense secular counseling from the getgo.Boob and Meech just let it fester until it boiled over. They shoulder much of the blame and should take a good hard look in the mirror on sentencing day. 
 

Want to take bets on whether or not MEshelle even shows up to the sentencing hearing?

[Cinnabon]

55 minutes ago, LilyD said:

I believe that Anna was told to be an obedient wife and mother to at least a dozen kids from the moment she was born. You’d need someone to show or tell you other ways and a good and lengthy exposure to the real world to change your views or consider other options. (Knowing those exist is not enough) and Anna had neither. She was just trying to lead the life she was taught and shown by growing up in that cult. So every new baby was probably a confirmation to her that she was doing exactly what God, her parents and her religious community expected from her. 
 

I have also wondered about her staunch support for Josh. And again, it wouldn’t surprise me if any doubts she voiced was silenced, “preached and prayed away” or talked out of her head by a continuous bombardment of her duties as a wife. And there is also another option; such religious cults are also known to use blackmail and threats: If you abandon your husband, you’ll be shunned or have your kids taken away. 
 

I’m no fan of Anna, but I don’t think her life or course of action is simple. Neither do I believe she has many options as a single, uneducated woman/mother with no real working experience, no funds and no family or friends to help her. (Just think about those who leave the Amish for instance. They no longer exist to their family, not even to their own parents…) The most likely scenario is that she is staying because she has no choice.

 

I think if Anna started a GoFundMe, she could raise some big bucks to start a new life. But she won’t. 

[Scarlett45]

Has anyones YouTube algorithm been giving them video analysis of Josh Duggar and his crimes? I haven’t watched any because we have discussed things here in depth, but I was just wondering. 

[lookeyloo]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

I think if Anna started a GoFundMe, she could raise some big bucks to start a new life. But she won’t. 

I am not an Anna fan, but, maybe in her head the world is very scary and unknown to her.  How would she even go about breaking into the mainstream world?  With no skills and 7 children facing a world that has been pushed as unsafe and ungodly.  It is like planting one of us down in a foreign country.  Even if we had money it would all still feel foreign, strange, scary.  She would not know who to trust.  We all say "come with us and we will guide you" but, she doesn't know us, trust us, I am guessing a lot of us would feel the same way in X country and strangers saying "I will help you".  Would we let them?  I would say she got herself into this predicament, but, I think she was groomed for it and convinced she wanted it.  It is a sad and confusing situation.  And, again, I am not her fan and not really defending her, because she does have those children to raise, but, am guessing she just doesn't have enough confidence, skill and resilience (and maybe desire) to break away.  Maybe not yet.

[Cinnabon]

35 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Has anyones YouTube algorithm been giving them video analysis of Josh Duggar and his crimes? I haven’t watched any because we have discussed things here in depth, but I was just wondering. 

No, but I don’t ever watch any of their videos because I don’t want to subsidize their exploitation of their kids. 

[Absolom]

2 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

I think if Anna started a GoFundMe, she could raise some big bucks to start a new life. But she won’t. 

I doubt she'd raise big bucks.  The fundies wouldn't support it because she'd be breaking free.  Some of the online anti-fundies would contribute, but overall she isn't really well known.  

[Scarlett45]

54 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

No, but I don’t ever watch any of their videos because I don’t want to subsidize their exploitation of their kids. 

I don’t quite follow your post.

How is an analysis of Josh and his crimes using info and footage publicly available assisting in the exploitation of children? By children do you mean the Duggar minor children and grandchildren? Sorry I’m being obtuse. 

[Scarlett45]

58 minutes ago, lookeyloo said:

I am not an Anna fan, but, maybe in her head the world is very scary and unknown to her.  How would she even go about breaking into the mainstream world?  With no skills and 7 children facing a world that has been pushed as unsafe and ungodly.  It is like planting one of us down in a foreign country.  Even if we had money it would all still feel foreign, strange, scary.  She would not know who to trust.  We all say "come with us and we will guide you" but, she doesn't know us, trust us, I am guessing a lot of us would feel the same way in X country and strangers saying "I will help you".  Would we let them?  I would say she got herself into this predicament, but, I think she was groomed for it and convinced she wanted it.  It is a sad and confusing situation.  And, again, I am not her fan and not really defending her, because she does have those children to raise, but, am guessing she just doesn't have enough confidence, skill and resilience (and maybe desire) to break away.  Maybe not yet.

Realistically I wouldn’t expect Anna to “break away”, but I wouldn’t be surprised if she (in a world where she was the best version of herself) told JB/Michelle that she had done her part in the marriage, but Josh had broken all of his vows, was now a convicted felon and an embarrassment. In exchange for doing her part for the extended family and not spilling things to the media for money, she could be put on the Duggar LLC pay role as a caregiver/tutor etc, and she expected to be provided for- and when Josh got out he wasn’t to reside with her. 

That way she would have her own income, could save, and she would still have the support to get the kids raised and not disrupt their routine too much. 

[Cinnabon]

9 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I don’t quite follow your post.

How is an analysis of Josh and his crimes using info and footage publicly available assisting in the exploitation of children? By children do you mean the Duggar minor children and grandchildren? Sorry I’m being obtuse. 

Sorry, I thought you were referring to the algorithm suggesting videos about Josh. I assume that people who frequently click on/watch Duggar and Duggar-adjacent videos  will see more of those suggestions. And yes, I’m referring to Jessa, Joy, Jill etc exploiting their kids for clicks/$$.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Cinnabon

[Scarlett45]

17 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Sorry, I thought you were referring to the algorithm suggesting videos about Josh. I assume that people who frequently click on/watch Duggar and Duggar-adjacent videos  will see more of those suggestions. And yes, I’m referring to Jessa, Joy, Jill etc exploiting their kids for clicks/$$.

Yes I was talking about the algorithm suggesting videos about Josh! Illuminati whose done ones on MLMs has one about Josh.

But no, I have never watched any of the Duggar YouTube channels (like Jill, Jessa etc)- that’s why I thought it was interesting that the algorithm was sending me analysis of Josh’s crimes. Of course I know the internet knows I come here but yes it was interesting to me and I wondered if the rest of the members here had experienced that. 
 

I watched an analysis of Mark Salling (gLee) and shared that in the gLee thread, so it makes sense I guess. 

[lookeyloo]

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Realistically I wouldn’t expect Anna to “break away”, but I wouldn’t be surprised if she (in a world where she was the best version of herself) told JB/Michelle that she had done her part in the marriage, but Josh had broken all of his vows, was now a convicted felon and an embarrassment. In exchange for doing her part for the extended family and not spilling things to the media for money, she could be put on the Duggar LLC pay role as a caregiver/tutor etc, and she expected to be provided for- and when Josh got out he wasn’t to reside with her. 

That way she would have her own income, could save, and she would still have the support to get the kids raised and not disrupt their routine too much. 

That would be a possible scenario. But Anna would have to come around to that way of thinking. Meanwhile she is surrounded by people telling her something else. I think 

[Cinnabon]

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes I was talking about the algorithm suggesting videos about Josh! Illuminati whose done ones in MLMs has one about Josh.

But no, I have never watched any of the Duggar YouTube channels (like Jill, Jessa etc)- that’s why I thought it was interesting that the algorithm was sending me analysis of Josh’s crimes. Of course I know the internet knows I come here but yes it was interesting to me and I wondered if the rest of the members here had experienced that. 
 

I watched an analysis of Mark Salling (gLee) and shared that in the gLee thread, so it makes sense I guess. 

That is odd! YouTube is spying on you, lol.

[emmawoodhouse]

33 minutes ago, lookeyloo said:

That would be a possible scenario. But Anna would have to come around to that way of thinking. Meanwhile she is surrounded by people telling her something else. I think 

Agreed. Didn't Anna break her silence to post that we didn't know the whole story and that Smuggar was innocent? 

She's swimming in the deep end of the kool-aid pool.

[GeeGolly]

Anna, or anyone in her position really, doesn't have to look to far to find 'facts' that support her position. She could believe Josh is totally innocent and wrongly convicted, or she could believe Josh made a mistake and never even looked at his mistaken download and is paying an overly harsh price for his mistake. Having a Fundy mindset makes it even easier to get there.

I don't think Anna has any motivation to believe anything else - at least not yet. I do think there's a slight chance as time passes she might wake up and realize that Josh is guilty. Or even wake up to the fact that Josh, even if innocent, has disrespected her and their marriage enough times that he's not worth waiting for. I doubt it, but 5+ years is a long time to reflect on what scum the Felon truly is.

[Scarlett45]

10 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Agreed. Didn't Anna break her silence to post that we didn't know the whole story and that Smuggar was innocent? 

She's swimming in the deep end of the kool-aid pool.

Oh yes totally. But that doesn’t surprise me. My theory was that Anna doing a 180 wasn’t likely, but the most likely thing IF she ever wised up was making demands of JB to be supported, not wanting to live with Josh. 
 

Walking away from the Duggar family and living as an “independent woman” isn’t likely with SEVEN children. One child, maybe she would’ve reached out to a sibling (assuming she wanted to get away), but SEVEN? I don’t think so. 

[GeeGolly]

I think another thing that is different with Anna's mindset is her kids. Many of us think they should be protected from Josh, but it seems she doesn't feel the same way. I for one, was shocked the judge allowed the kids to be around him. So if you add that to Anna's big picture, she's not factoring in any need to protect her kids.

Just for the record, I don't think the Felon is a pedophile, but I still wouldn't him around kids.

[Albanyguy]

12 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I do think there's a slight chance as time passes she might wake up and realize that Josh is guilty. Or even wake up to the fact that Josh, even if innocent, has disrespected her and their marriage enough times that he's not worth waiting for. I doubt it, but 5+ years is a long time to reflect on what scum the Felon truly is.

I hope that's the case, but sadly, I think Anna's only long-range plan right now is to wait for Josh to get sprung from prison so she can get pregnant again the day he comes home. For her, the worst that can happen is that she'll have a longer gap than usual between kids.

I think she's still living in denial, clinging to the belief that Josh's conviction will be overturned on appeal or, failing that, he'll be given a very light sentence and be out in a few years. And I doubt if she realizes how different and difficult their life will be when he finally does come home.

 

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, Albanyguy said:

I hope that's the case, but sadly, I think Anna's only long-range plan right now is to wait for Josh to get sprung from prison so she can get pregnant again the day he comes home. For her, the worst that can happen is that she'll have a longer gap than usual between kids.

I think she's still living in denial, clinging to the belief that Josh's conviction will be overturned on appeal or, failing that, he'll be given a very light sentence and be out in a few years. And I doubt if she realizes how different and difficult their life will be when he finally does come home.

 

I agree with this. 

[SusanM]

2 hours ago, Albanyguy said:

I hope that's the case, but sadly, I think Anna's only long-range plan right now is to wait for Josh to get sprung from prison so she can get pregnant again the day he comes home.

Yep.  I think Anna's favourite song going forward is going to be "Tie a Yellow Ribbon Round the Old Oak Tree".  Whether in her deepest, inner most heart she has actually entertained the notion that Josh not only might be guilty but also is irredeemable, is really a moot point.  Guilty or innocent she's not going anywhere.  She probably does think they'll just pick up where they left off.  

The wild card here isn't Anna, it's Josh.  After 5 (and hopefully more) years in a federal penitentiary he may be the one who says "enough, I don't want that life".  We shall see.

Edited April 10, 2022 by SusanM

[GeeGolly]

25 minutes ago, SusanM said:

Yep.  I think Anna's favourite song going forward is going to be "Tie a Yellow Ribbon Round the Old Oak Tree".  Whether in her deepest, inner most heart she has actually entertained the notion that Josh not only might be guilty but also is irredeemable, is really a moot point.  Guilty or innocent she's not going anywhere.  She probably does think they'll just pick up where they left off.  

The wild card here isn't Anna, it's Josh.  After 5 (and hopefully more) years in a federal penitentiary he may be the one who says "enough, I don't want that life".  We shall see.

But Anna does 'take the edge off' the Felon's sexual deviancies, so I think initially anyways, he'll fall back into her arms.

Then there will be that pesky money problem. He'll have none and will be essentially unemployable, so he'll need JB. I think JB will take Josh back if Anna leaves. But assuming Anna is still part of the Duggar circle, I don't think JB would take him back if Josh is planning to kick Anna to the curb. The optics would be very bad.

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

But Anna does 'take the edge off' the Felon's sexual deviancies, so I think initially anyways, he'll fall back into her arms.

Then there will be that pesky money problem. He'll have none and will be essentially unemployable, so he'll need JB. I think JB will take Josh back if Anna leaves. But assuming Anna is still part of the Duggar circle, I don't think JB would take him back if Josh is planning to kick Anna to the curb. The optics would be very bad.

That’s true. JB wouldn’t let Josh publicly abandon Anna when he gets out. Josh doesn’t have much of a backbone anyway- but after time in federal prison who knows. 
 

Josh is an awful human who thinks of no one but himself. However I think he does have somewhat typical affection towards Michelle. Being away from your family and community for several years isn’t going to be easy- even for a scum bag like Josh. I have no idea what he will do when he gets out. 
 

I have a friend who’s father went to prison for sex offenses against minors- he’s been out longer than he’s been in, and it’s been a pain point for the entire family (she has nothing to do with him). But yes I see Anna just counting the days until Josh is back home. “Counting On” has an entirely different meaning now. 

[emmawoodhouse]

No way Anna up and leaves. As noted above, she'll be all ready to make M8. Even if she's in her early 40's. Her mother has her last at 44, IIRC, and her sister Esther has had one or two in her 40's. 

Edited April 10, 2022 by emmawoodhouse

[Heathen]

On 4/9/2022 at 6:41 PM, Absolom said:

I doubt she'd raise big bucks.  The fundies wouldn't support it because she'd be breaking free.  Some of the online anti-fundies would contribute, but overall she isn't really well known.  

I think a lot of normal, non-fundie people would decline to donate in case the funds "accidentally" made their way to Smuggar and his defense. 

[Cinnabon]

Will MOTY MEShelle even show up to Josh’s sentencing?

[ozziemom]

31 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Will MOTY MEShelle even show up to Josh’s sentencing?

Since she didn’t go to the trial, probably won’t go to sentencing either. I wonder if Boob decided she wasn’t able to handle it or if she had a say in the decision.

[Cinnabon]

28 minutes ago, ozziemom said:

Since she didn’t go to the trial, probably won’t go to sentencing either. I wonder if Boob decided she wasn’t able to handle it or if she had a say in the decision.

Some MOTY, huh?

[Zella]

I honestly don't blame anyone in the family for not attending his court appearances.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Zella

[floridamom]

Josh will be a completely different person when his sentence is up and returns home, wherever that may be. I don't think Anna will be able to relate to him. She, IMO, will not be changed much as she will stay right where she is and rely on Jim Bob and his "team's" financial guidance/decisions. It will be Josh who has changed. We'll see how this plays out in time.

[Albanyguy]

9 hours ago, Zella said:

I honestly don't blame anyone in the family for not attending his court appearances.

I don't either. But I think Jim Bob will there and that he may bully one or two of the boys into going with him to provide a show of family solidarity.  What I really wonder is, will Anna be there? 

[Westiepeach]

1 hour ago, floridamom said:

Josh will be a completely different person when his sentence is up and returns home, wherever that may be. I don't think Anna will be able to relate to him. She, IMO, will not be changed much as she will stay right where she is and rely on Jim Bob and his "team's" financial guidance/decisions. It will be Josh who has changed. We'll see how this plays out in time.

I have been saying this all along. The FF that walks out of federal prison will definitely not be the same FF that walked in.

[LilJen]

16 minutes ago, Westiepeach said:

I have been saying this all along. The FF that walks out of federal prison will definitely not be the same FF that walked in.

Nope. He might be even MORE insufferably smug….☹️

[ginger90]

It’s been discussed many times that the Duggars lack structure. This will be something that prison life will be full of. That’s what I believe will be a huge problem for Josh upon release.

Once sentenced (hopefully) he will have the initial adjustment from having been in county, and being transferred to federal prison.

Edited April 12, 2022 by ginger90

[crazy8s]

1 hour ago, Albanyguy said:

I don't either. But I think Jim Bob will there and that he may bully one or two of the boys into going with him to provide a show of family solidarity.  What I really wonder is, will Anna be there? 

Anna will most likely be there and putting my money on Hilaria to be sitting right next to her to be supportive and then get her pic taken with Anna walking out of the courthouse.

[jacourt]

I really dont think Michelle could handle being in court.  She would just melt into a puddle.

[GeeGolly]

Josh will definitely be a different person when he gets out, but one thing that won't change is his personality disorder. His deviant urges and tendencies will still be there. Prison has a way of giving inmates an unearned confidence in thinking they can control/regulate things like addiction and anomalous impulsive behaviors, when in reality they weren't regulating anything at all - they were locked up. So while prison can humble some folks it can also simultaneously make them cocky.

Personality disorders aren't curable and they're one of the hardest mental health issues to manage. Even with great, competent, consistent treatment, with client buy in, its a tough journey.

The Felon, Anna and the Duggars may think he will walk out a shiny new man, when in reality the part of Josh everyone wants 'fixed' will still be 'broken'.

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

Josh will definitely be a different person when he gets out, but one thing that won't change is his personality disorder. His deviant urges and tendencies will still be there. Prison has a way of giving inmates an unearned confidence in thinking they can control/regulate things like addiction and anomalous impulsive behaviors, when in reality they weren't regulating anything at all - they were locked up. So while prison can humble some folks it can also simultaneously make them cocky.

Personality disorders aren't curable and they're one of the hardest mental health issues to manage. Even with great, competent, consistent treatment, with client buy in, its a tough journey.

The Felon, Anna and the Duggars may think he will walk out a shiny new man, when in reality the part of Josh everyone wants 'fixed' will still be 'broken'.

I wonder if he’ll get any kind of therapy or treatment while in prison. Our prisons should be more about rehabilitation than punishment, but they’re certainly not.  And as you said, personality disorders don’t really respond to treatment. 

[GeeGolly]

1 minute ago, Cinnabon said:

I wonder if he’ll get any kind of therapy or treatment while in prison. Our prisons should be more about rehabilitation than punishment, but they’re certainly not.  And as you said, personality disorders don’t really respond to treatment. 

From what I've read, there's no real consistency across jails and prisons in regard to what kind of rehabilitative services they provide. And how successful any of the programs are is another thing all together. Recidivism rates have remained high over time, but in my opinion that has a lot to do with lack of post incarceration support.

[Zella]

5 hours ago, Albanyguy said:

I don't either. But I think Jim Bob will there and that he may bully one or two of the boys into going with him to provide a show of family solidarity.  What I really wonder is, will Anna be there? 

I would be shocked if Anna weren't there, considering her perfect attendance during the trial.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Zella

[Cinnabon]

15 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

From what I've read, there's no real consistency across jails and prisons in regard to what kind of rehabilitative services they provide. And how successful any of the programs are is another thing all together. Recidivism rates have remained high over time, but in my opinion that has a lot to do with lack of post incarceration support.

Yes, it costs taxpayers hundreds a day to house prisoners, but very little money is spent on post incarceration support and thus too many find themselves right back in prison before long. The system is broken. 

10 minutes ago, Zella said:

I would be shocked if Anna weren't there, considering her perfect attendance during the trial.

Don’t some family members usually in speak in support of the defendant at sentencing hearings?

[ginger90]

7 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Don’t some family members usually in speak in support of the defendant at sentencing hearings?

They can. It will be interesting to see if they go that route. It will also be interesting to see if the FF speaks.

[Rootbeer]

23 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

They can. It will be interesting to see if they go that route. It will also be interesting to see if the FF speaks.

If anyone speaks, I expect it will be Anna telling the court about what a marvelous father FF is, how he dotes on the children, how they need his presence, how much they love him.  In other words, lying through her teeth.

[ginger90]

1 minute ago, Rootbeer said:

If anyone speaks, I expect it will be Anna telling the court about what a marvelous father FF is, how he dotes on the children, how they need his presence, how much they love him.  In other words, lying through her teeth.

I agree with that.

I don’t see Josh speaking. The purpose for it would be to show remorse, apologize. That’s not happening, while an appeal is being attempted.