All Episodes Talk: Grunt

[readster]

48 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

It was actually season six that Jilly was horrible about Angela doing her chores, after getting hurt that the boys won't spend time with her at hardware expo going up to Tim to talk to who was working and getting mad at him for wanting to talk about it later because once again he was working, getting mad at Mark for using his karate that saved Randy, and taking him to that couples therapy then getting mad when everyone sympathized with Tim again. But season seven Jill continued becoming even worse refusing to let Randy drive at night for month because of what Brad did and ignored everyone who kept pointing out to her how unfair that was, thinking Mark wants to murder them because he's making a horror movie, making those remarks on the talk show about Tim, deciding Willow had some sort of issue because she was a 24 year old single girl who likes who go to clubs. Plus that weird emotion therapy or whatever that was trying to convinced the first family she was going to council before they made the very smart choice to ask for another therapist. But I agree it really was. Some were really good like Say Goodnight Gracie and What a Drag, but so many weren't thought out or just plan bad. Tim being a jerk to Al when he becomes his landlord or being obsessed about whether Heidi and Al were having an affair, Brad suddenly wanting to marry an older woman for no real reason.  

I guess I just blur season 6-7 of Jill too much seeing the seasons back to back like this. However, as you pointed out there ares some just odd episodes that just don't fit together in the large scheme of things in season 7. Then when you get to season 8 the first part is building to JTT leaving the show and then the show trying to fill in Randy's absence, which works for several episodes. However, you see that turn again in season 8 when they knew they were not coming back for another season and had just 6 episodes to wrap things up.

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, readster said:

I guess I just blur season 6-7 of Jill too much seeing the seasons back to back like this. However, as you pointed out there ares some just odd episodes that just don't fit together in the large scheme of things in season 7. Then when you get to season 8 the first part is building to JTT leaving the show and then the show trying to fill in Randy's absence, which works for several episodes. However, you see that turn again in season 8 when they knew they were not coming back for another season and had just 6 episodes to wrap things up.

They do blur after awhile. Season eight did a good job feeling Randy's absence. But yes you noticed a sudden shift in things in the fifth to last episode. Bud suddenly deciding to pull all tools that aren't made by Binford which is a stupid idea. They don't make every kind of tool and I'd assume a lot of commercials are about those tools and a scout from UCLA is coming to see Brad. Or maybe two episodes before with Harry suddenly selling his store and leaving for Arizona, Tim buying it but later Jeff and Marty end up working there. 

[Was-MArsenault]

7 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

That adorable little girl was Pubert? Wow, I had no idea!

Yes.

[Was-MArsenault]

Does anyone know the name of this episode?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/tijWAfCZovf3ki3p9

[Was-MArsenault]

Laff posted something on their Facebook page a few days ago and I posted it over on the Media Time thread for those wanting to see it.

[andromeda331]

Watching Satellite on Hot Tim's Roof Wilson tells a surprised Tim that he doesn't own a TV. I don't know how long their suppose to know each other at this point. Later its when Randy was a baby. But they still seem close enough that Tim would know Wilson doesn't have a TV given how much they talk and Tim would have probably asked very early on if he saw that that game or catch or something for which then Wilson would probably tell him he doesn't have a TV. Although I kind of wonder why he seems the type who'd own one so he could watch documentaries that aired and even a VCR to watch more documentaries on bugs, tribes, ancient tribes, and other stuff.

[readster]

5 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Watching Satellite on Hot Tim's Roof Wilson tells a surprised Tim that he doesn't own a TV. I don't know how long their suppose to know each other at this point. Later its when Randy was a baby. But they still seem close enough that Tim would know Wilson doesn't have a TV given how much they talk and Tim would have probably asked very early on if he saw that that game or catch or something for which then Wilson would probably tell him he doesn't have a TV. Although I kind of wonder why he seems the type who'd own one so he could watch documentaries that aired and even a VCR to watch more documentaries on bugs, tribes, ancient tribes, and other stuff.

Yeah, they kept painting Wilson as this wise, but humble neighbor and they didn't really think of things back then. I never could imagine that Wilson didn't watch PBS or something related given his history and so forth. I know they couldn't predict the show being on 8 years, but don't have it where you have been over and so forth. Then have something like: "I didn't know you didn't own a TV." 

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, readster said:

Yeah, they kept painting Wilson as this wise, but humble neighbor and they didn't really think of things back then. I never could imagine that Wilson didn't watch PBS or something related given his history and so forth. I know they couldn't predict the show being on 8 years, but don't have it where you have been over and so forth. Then have something like: "I didn't know you didn't own a TV." 

They really didn't. I know they don't always do in the first season. Did they not work out yet what kind of relationship Wilson had with his neighbors? That might make sense if Wilson had just moved in and they just met in the first episode. But their going to the fence to talk to him, Wilson knew Tim well enough in Off Sides when Tim mentioned not understanding Jill to immediately ask what Tim did. So Tim should have known Wilson didn't have a TV. But he's surprised.

I could see him watching PBS and Nova and renting or buying documentaries about bees, birds and other animals, different tribes. Later he'd probably love the National Geographic channel. 

[readster]

Was watching the Season 3 premiere again last night. Wow! Jill in that episode is not the character she would be 5 seasons later. Even with the talk of Baby Sloane that was then completely thrown out in the series. Jill is in the wrong, she pretty much brings up all the: "I wanted to have a girl" talk with Tim. Tim has plenty of reasons to be: "Yeah, we are beyond that." I know it was to tie into couples having babies later in life in the early 90s (both my parents did that). However, at the end when Jill says she couldn't have a baby again since she was "too busy" now. Funny how it became "anti-baby" when Jill returned to school 6 episodes later. Also, I noticed in the first few episodes of Season 3, which was Heidi's first season, she does give Al a lot of dirty looks when Al either counters Tim on something. Or in the season premiere when Al jokes that Lisa left the show to work for Bob Villa. Heidi gives Al a very: "you smug asshole" look in the first few episodes. It almost completely disappears by episode 8. I think the writers originally didn't want Heidi to really like Al like everyone else fell over him during the early part of the season. I think that changed because they became good friends both off and on the set. Which really would have put Heidi in a different context considering towards the end of the series, Heidi admitted she would date or even 'sleep" with someone like Al if she wouldn't have been married.

Edited November 17, 2018 by readster
Heidi not Lisa

[andromeda331]

21 hours ago, readster said:

Was watching the Season 3 premiere again last night. Wow! Jill in that episode is not the character she would be 5 seasons later. Even with the talk of Baby Sloane that was then completely thrown out in the series. Jill is in the wrong, she pretty much brings up all the: "I wanted to have a girl" talk with Tim. Tim has plenty of reasons to be: "Yeah, we are beyond that." I know it was to tie into couples having babies later in life in the early 90s (both my parents did that). However, at the end when Jill says she couldn't have a baby again since she was "too busy" now. Funny how it became "anti-baby" when Jill returned to school 6 episodes later. 

No, she's not. I'm not even sure why she was so I want a baby girl in that episode when at the end she says she's too busy. Then really what was the point? She was all over Tim to agree so you'd think that's because she really wants another a baby. So when he's finally on board nope she tells him he's too busy? At the time I was surprised HI didn't go that route when so many sitcoms then did. Growing Pains, Step by Step, Full House technically with the twin nephews, so many added a baby later that its surprising HI didn't go that route. 

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Also, I noticed in the first few episodes of Season 3, which was Heidi's first season, she does give Al a lot of dirty looks when Al either counters Tim on something. Or in the season premiere when Al jokes that Lisa left the show to work for Bob Villa. Heidi gives Al a very: "you smug asshole" look in the first few episodes. It almost completely disappears by episode 8. I think the writers originally didn't want Heidi to really like Al like everyone else fell over him during the early part of the season. I think that changed because they became good friends both off and on the set. Which really would have put Heidi in a different context considering towards the end of the series, Heidi admitted she would date or even 'sleep" with someone like Al if she wouldn't have been married.

 

She does. I wonder if that was their plan or they changed things with Heidi as they went along. She was already starting out doing more and getting more camera time then Lisa ever did. Lisa's most camera time before she left was her last episode. Maybe they wanted her not to like Al since everyone liked him as you pointed out? With Al and Tim technically friends by that point there was no one who didn't like Al until Bud comes a long in two seasons. I always wondered why they brought her on after Lisa left they didn't really do much with Lisa that they really could have just had that character be guest star or something. 

[readster]

On 11/18/2018 at 6:19 AM, andromeda331 said:

No, she's not. I'm not even sure why she was so I want a baby girl in that episode when at the end she says she's too busy. Then really what was the point? She was all over Tim to agree so you'd think that's because she really wants another a baby. So when he's finally on board nope she tells him he's too busy? At the time I was surprised HI didn't go that route when so many sitcoms then did. Growing Pains, Step by Step, Full House technically with the twin nephews, so many added a baby later that its surprising HI didn't go that route. 

 

I think one of the reasons, was because they didn't see that going there. Even Boy Meets World did it, and then completely ignored the new baby after the first season. 

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She does. I wonder if that was their plan or they changed things with Heidi as they went along. She was already starting out doing more and getting more camera time then Lisa ever did. Lisa's most camera time before she left was her last episode. Maybe they wanted her not to like Al since everyone liked him as you pointed out? With Al and Tim technically friends by that point there was no one who didn't like Al until Bud comes a long in two seasons. I always wondered why they brought her on after Lisa left they didn't really do much with Lisa that they really could have just had that character be guest star or something. 

I think one of the reasons was because Pam Anderson was pretty successful after HI at the time and they wanted to really do more with Heidi's character. Basically a "blank slate" to build on. We have no idea what was Lisa's background. How did she even get hired on Tool Time? What made her decide to go back to school and become a paramedic? Why did she never return? After all Anderson left Baywatch a year before Home Improvement went off the air. 

[andromeda331]

11 hours ago, readster said:

I think one of the reasons, was because they didn't see that going there. Even Boy Meets World did it, and then completely ignored the new baby after the first season. 

I'm glad they didn't for that reason. So many times shows add a baby to the show and it really does nothing. Growing Pains added one and then got bored with Chrissy and aged her up, Step by Step added Lilly and then aged her up the next season. I really wish shows wouldn't add a baby to just to add one. Its obvious in so many shows they don't think of anything beyond funny pregnancy stuff and the birth. It was nice that HI didn't. You can't even really count the twin nieces because they weren't on that much and only came on more in season eight. If not for that they probably never would have aged Gracie and Claire up. 

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I think one of the reasons was because Pam Anderson was pretty successful after HI at the time and they wanted to really do more with Heidi's character. Basically a "blank slate" to build on. We have no idea what was Lisa's background. How did she even get hired on Tool Time? What made her decide to go back to school and become a paramedic? Why did she never return? After all Anderson left Baywatch a year before Home Improvement went off the air. 

 

That's a possibility. Still odd though they had Lisa on the show for a couple years and we knew nothing about her. No idea how she got hired on Tool Time was she a model? In Binford commercials? A Binford sales person? Who knows. We knew nothing about her. Or even that she was leaving until the next season when Tim (or was it Al) said Lisa left Tool Time to go back to the show. They could have done a few things with her on the show or even given us some background but didn't. I wonder how she felt after she left that her replacement ended up doing much more then her character ever did. Maybe she didn't care since she left and went to be on another successful TV show.  I liked Heidi but we never really learned what her background was. What brought her to Tool Time either. Later she's shown helping on projects and things but we never find out if she knew all along or if she picked up things working on the show. They brought her back for that one episode which is kind of funny because she did more in that episode then she did the entire time she was on the show.  

[readster]

20 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

That's a possibility. Still odd though they had Lisa on the show for a couple years and we knew nothing about her. No idea how she got hired on Tool Time was she a model? In Binford commercials? A Binford sales person? Who knows. We knew nothing about her. Or even that she was leaving until the next season when Tim (or was it Al) said Lisa left Tool Time to go back to the show. They could have done a few things with her on the show or even given us some background but didn't. I wonder how she felt after she left that her replacement ended up doing much more then her character ever did. Maybe she didn't care since she left and went to be on another successful TV show.  I liked Heidi but we never really learned what her background was. What brought her to Tool Time either. Later she's shown helping on projects and things but we never find out if she knew all along or if she picked up things working on the show. They brought her back for that one episode which is kind of funny because she did more in that episode then she did the entire time she was on the show.  

There were a lot of characters we never got a background story on. Let's face to a point, we never knew why Wilson became a college professor. Yes, he had a knack for history, and his family loved exploring. However, what was the main reason he went into teaching and his own PhD and why did he leave? Something that always confused me about Wilson was where the hell was he getting his money for things? Even at that time that the show started, Wilson was a bit young to retire from teaching. When the show started, Earl Hindmon was just shy of turning 50 as he died at 63. 

  We got the origin stories of Tim, Jill (how they met), Al, Harry even John Binford. However, how did Lisa and Heidi end up working for Binford? How the hell could anyone be friends with Benny or allow him to mooch the way he did? Where were George and Steve, Tim's other brothers? What did Lucille do for a living after her husband died? What was Fred Patterson's up bringing him to make him love the military and yet hate everything else? Why did we never get any background on why Marty hated working or why Jill's sisters all had failed marriages or relationships? The show as on 8 years, yet none of these questions ever came up? Plus, you add in how various actors got cast on other shows and the only way to write them off was they either no longer appeared or ran off with someone. How lazy was that? 

[readster]

Mark's glasses and Marty's first appearance just aired. I just don't see how Mark's teacher didn't notice something was going on. Being a teacher myself, you can tell when a student can't see the board correctly. Now, granted Mark was from the time when black/white boards were still very common. Plus, projectors were still wheeled in. However, if Mark was unable to see the board so well, you would have seen him squinting. Plus, grade schools still go through regular eye screening early in the school year. Some one would have noticed something with Mark instead of: "Dear. Mr. and Mrs Taylor, Mark seems to not be doing well on his work in and out of class. What is going on with him?" I also don't get why they had to hammer Jill returning to school so early in the series. You can have it where both Brad and Randy thought it was weird for their mom to go back to college. Even how Randy and Brad brought up how Jill didn't do their laundry anymore, yet were happy she wasn't cooking. What way is it boys? Of course flash forward two years later and no one could have cared less unless "someone" else was doing their daily activities.

   With Marty's appearance, Tim saying how Marty quit everything he did, I think that's where the writers got caught in his character over the years. They didn't think they needed to explain why Marty had this terrible attitude when it came to his job or career. It was: "Oh, that Marty, can't follow anything through." I also don't get why even Marty would think walking out on his wife and leaving his daughters who would grow up going: "Our dad walked out on us, he sucked!" Just like years later saying that Nancy was always in charge of discipline with the girls. I don't get it, there is just not really seeing what is like to be a parent, because we all have fantasies in our head of it being easy. Or you have the opposite if your own childhood was crap and either say: "I will let my kids get away with murder because my parents were so strict." or "My childhood was crap, I don't any kids or and I'll make sure if I get married to someone, I will force that on them that will always be the rules no matter how much they want them." Perhaps that's what the writers were going with, but at times it made Marty come across with: "What family was he raised in?" 

Of course then in those episodes you begin Jill's: "I have to get so many papers written and no one wants to leave me alone." You think she would have had Tim build an office that could have been a lock room. I mean, you want us to believe that Michigan University's under graduate students were so oblivious to that there being graduate students at a college library. They kept going to Jill and asking her if she was a librarian. Then you add in that all these times, Jill says she got quiet time at Wilson's. Why didn't she just go there all the time over the course of the series. It also would have been interesting story lines with Jill and Wilson bonding over research and school. They could have even gone to a point where Jill got tired of hearing Wilson's stories, kind of the classic: "your advice is great, but a little bit goes a long way, stop telling me about your tribes in Africa all the time!" Which would have been in character for both Jill and Wilson. Wilson can't stop giving out his life experiences and Jill doesn't want to hear the same story over and over again unless it's about how horrible it was moving 8 times in her life before high school was over.

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, readster said:

Mark's glasses and Marty's first appearance just aired. I just don't see how Mark's teacher didn't notice something was going on. Being a teacher myself, you can tell when a student can't see the board correctly. Now, granted Mark was from the time when black/white boards were still very common. Plus, projectors were still wheeled in. However, if Mark was unable to see the board so well, you would have seen him squinting. Plus, grade schools still go through regular eye screening early in the school year. Some one would have noticed something with Mark instead of: "Dear. Mr. and Mrs Taylor, Mark seems to not be doing well on his work in and out of class. What is going on with him?" I also don't get why they had to hammer Jill returning to school so early in the series. You can have it where both Brad and Randy thought it was weird for their mom to go back to college. Even how Randy and Brad brought up how Jill didn't do their laundry anymore, yet were happy she wasn't cooking. What way is it boys? Of course flash forward two years later and no one could have cared less unless "someone" else was doing their daily activities.

It makes no sense really because yes schools where still doing the eye and hearing tests every year but also it seems unlikely that Jill wouldn't regularly taking her kids to the doctor, dentist and eye doctor every year. She just doesn't seem the type to skip out on that so it should have been caught sooner. I'm not sure why Jill was surprised that Brad and Randy thought it was weird that she went back to school. It would be weird for a kid to have their parent going back to school. I do like in the later episode when Brad uses all of the parenting remarks to Jill when she's trying to get out of doing her school work. 

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With Marty's appearance, Tim saying how Marty quit everything he did, I think that's where the writers got caught in his character over the years. They didn't think they needed to explain why Marty had this terrible attitude when it came to his job or career. It was: "Oh, that Marty, can't follow anything through." I also don't get why even Marty would think walking out on his wife and leaving his daughters who would grow up going: "Our dad walked out on us, he sucked!" Just like years later saying that Nancy was always in charge of discipline with the girls. I don't get it, there is just not really seeing what is like to be a parent, because we all have fantasies in our head of it being easy. Or you have the opposite if your own childhood was crap and either say: "I will let my kids get away with murder because my parents were so strict." or "My childhood was crap, I don't any kids or and I'll make sure if I get married to someone, I will force that on them that will always be the rules no matter how much they want them." Perhaps that's what the writers were going with, but at times it made Marty come across with: "What family was he raised in?" 

Yeah, they felt like they didn't need to explain why Marty had the terrible 'tude which yes they did because it didn't make sense with his background. He was like one when his dad died so he grew up with his mother working to support their family. She had to work there were no other options. Yet somehow he grows up always complaining and never following through? Why is his solution to everything is to quit? You still need money to eat and a roof over your head. He'll quit his job or complain until he gets fired. Then gets mad that he keeps getting crappier jobs. Gee Marty maybe if you stopped complaining and just suck it up. In the episode where Marty wants to leave his family I'm not sure why Jill gets mad at him or Wilson thinks Tim told Marty the wrong thing. Maybe because I'd probably said the same thing or worse if my brother told me he wanted to leave his wife and kids because it was just too hard. I mean what? I get he's going through a hard time except his solution is to walk out and leave his wife to support and raise their kids. That's crappy. What exactly does Jill and Wilson think Tim should have said? Does he really want to leave his kids without a father like he was left without one? I mean out of all of the Taylor boys he's the one without any memory of his father. It would have been nice to see where Marty got his issues from because without it he just comes off like lazy manchild who won't keep a job not even to support his wife and kids and also won't do any of the parenting.  With that its surprising that Nancy didn't throw him out sooner. Yes the other brothers are screw ups but he only had to look at Tim who worked hard and it paid off. So its not like he doesn't have an example of that. He has his mother and his brother.  

 

Spoiler

Of course then in those episodes you begin Jill's: "I have to get so many papers written and no one wants to leave me alone." You think she would have had Tim build an office that could have been a lock room. I mean, you want us to believe that Michigan University's under graduate students were so oblivious to that there being graduate students at a college library. They kept going to Jill and asking her if she was a librarian. Then you add in that all these times, Jill says she got quiet time at Wilson's. Why didn't she just go there all the time over the course of the series. It also would have been interesting story lines with Jill and Wilson bonding over research and school. They could have even gone to a point where Jill got tired of hearing Wilson's stories, kind of the classic: "your advice is great, but a little bit goes a long way, stop telling me about your tribes in Africa all the time!" Which would have been in character for both Jill and Wilson. 

I can't figure out why she doesn't do that. They could have turned the attic into office or the basement since she started school before they re-did the basement. Or even set up a desk or table in her bedroom. She could shut the door and work as long as she needed. Its like that episode when she does ask for an attic and takes it back. She's working at the kitchen table which she does in so many episode. Of course she's going to get interrupted. Its the kitchen table. The boys and Tim are going to be coming through, watching TV, getting food, or using the table. Yet she always seems surprised by that. Why? There were other rooms she could have set up for an office but doesn't or yes she could have gone over to Wilson's to work. That would have made for really good scenes.  Also in the episode she asks for the attic she gets mad because Randy took their thesaurus. Why is she surprised by that? He's still in school Jill, he probably needs it for his papers too as does Mark and Brad. Maybe you should have bought a few more? Its like she thinks she's the only one who needs that stuff even though three other people in her house are also going to school too. 

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Wilson can't stop giving out his life experiences and Jill doesn't want to hear the same story over and over again unless it's about how horrible it was moving 8 times in her life before high school was over.

 

That would be hilarious. I could see them both trying to do that and both trying to politely get away from each other. Wilson making up excuses to get out hearing the same childhood stories and Jill making up excuses to get out of Wilson's stories. 

[readster]

2 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

 

 

 

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Of course then in those episodes you begin Jill's: "I have to get so many papers written and no one wants to leave me alone." You think she would have had Tim build an office that could have been a lock room. I mean, you want us to believe that Michigan University's under graduate students were so oblivious to that there being graduate students at a college library. They kept going to Jill and asking her if she was a librarian. Then you add in that all these times, Jill says she got quiet time at Wilson's. Why didn't she just go there all the time over the course of the series. It also would have been interesting story lines with Jill and Wilson bonding over research and school. They could have even gone to a point where Jill got tired of hearing Wilson's stories, kind of the classic: "your advice is great, but a little bit goes a long way, stop telling me about your tribes in Africa all the time!" Which would have been in character for both Jill and Wilson. 

I can't figure out why she doesn't do that. They could have turned the attic into office or the basement since she started school before they re-did the basement. Or even set up a desk or table in her bedroom. She could shut the door and work as long as she needed. Its like that episode when she does ask for an attic and takes it back. She's working at the kitchen table which she does in so many episode. Of course she's going to get interrupted. Its the kitchen table. The boys and Tim are going to be coming through, watching TV, getting food, or using the table. Yet she always seems surprised by that. Why? There were other rooms she could have set up for an office but doesn't or yes she could have gone over to Wilson's to work. That would have made for really good scenes.  Also in the episode she asks for the attic she gets mad because Randy took their thesaurus. Why is she surprised by that? He's still in school Jill, he probably needs it for his papers too as does Mark and Brad. Maybe you should have bought a few more? Its like she thinks she's the only one who needs that stuff even though three other people in her house are also going to school too. 

That would be hilarious. I could see them both trying to do that and both trying to politely get away from each other. Wilson making up excuses to get out hearing the same childhood stories and Jill making up excuses to get out of Wilson's stories. 

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It makes no sense really because yes schools where still doing the eye and hearing tests every year but also it seems unlikely that Jill wouldn't regularly taking her kids to the doctor, dentist and eye doctor every year. She just doesn't seem the type to skip out on that so it should have been caught sooner. I'm not sure why Jill was surprised that Brad and Randy thought it was weird that she went back to school. It would be weird for a kid to have their parent going back to school. I do like in the later episode when Brad uses all of the parenting remarks to Jill when she's trying to get out of doing her school work. 

Yeah, it goes right up with why Jill didn't have a regular visit with her gyno. Then out of the blue after almost 10 years, gets told she has cysts. I wanted to go: "how did you go that many years and not get checked out?" I mean we saw both Jill and Tim getting glasses and it seemed like a regular yearly check up. Yet, Mark gets completely missed in all of this and then his reason for not wanting glasses. It was the mid 90s by then, more people were going to glasses or wearing contacts. I mean if you saw a sitcom doing then: "I can't look like glasses, I'm a nerd" now people would look at you and go: "So?" 

 

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Yeah, they felt like they didn't need to explain why Marty had the terrible 'tude which yes they did because it didn't make sense with his background. He was like one when his dad died so he grew up with his mother working to support their family. She had to work there were no other options. Yet somehow he grows up always complaining and never following through? Why is his solution to everything is to quit? You still need money to eat and a roof over your head. He'll quit his job or complain until he gets fired. Then gets mad that he keeps getting crappier jobs. Gee Marty maybe if you stopped complaining and just suck it up. In the episode where Marty wants to leave his family I'm not sure why Jill gets mad at him or Wilson thinks Tim told Marty the wrong thing. Maybe because I'd probably said the same thing or worse if my brother told me he wanted to leave his wife and kids because it was just too hard. I mean what? I get he's going through a hard time except his solution is to walk out and leave his wife to support and raise their kids. That's crappy. What exactly does Jill and Wilson think Tim should have said? Does he really want to leave his kids without a father like he was left without one? I mean out of all of the Taylor boys he's the one without any memory of his father. It would have been nice to see where Marty got his issues from because without it he just comes off like lazy manchild who won't keep a job not even to support his wife and kids and also won't do any of the parenting.  With that its surprising that Nancy didn't throw him out sooner. Yes the other brothers are screw ups but he only had to look at Tim who worked hard and it paid off. So its not like he doesn't have an example of that. He has his mother and his brother.  

Yes, that's what I didn't get, because Tim was the most successful and why? He said it best: "I did my best trying to be like my dad and my mom had to keep everything going and pay the bills and raise 5 boys." He got it. He knew it was hard work, he could still be himself, but he knew he had to work for everything. We never got that with Marty or Jeff. Marty was constantly: "I hate doing this and I wish everyone would do everything for me." I get he was the baby of the family, but really when you look at it, it seemed that Tim was more of the brother always involved with Marty from picking on him or showing him how to do things. Jeff, who was the oldest just could never get it together and his two previous ex-wives all sounded like that they just settled for each other with: "this is the best I'm going to do." Which is a recipe for disaster right there for both parties. If anything, Lucille was very patient with all of them, but more with Jeff and Marty until Marty and Nancy divorced. 

[andromeda331]

42 minutes ago, readster said:

Yeah, it goes right up with why Jill didn't have a regular visit with her gyno. Then out of the blue after almost 10 years, gets told she has cysts. I wanted to go: "how did you go that many years and not get checked out?" I mean we saw both Jill and Tim getting glasses and it seemed like a regular yearly check up. Yet, Mark gets completely missed in all of this and then his reason for not wanting glasses. It was the mid 90s by then, more people were going to glasses or wearing contacts. I mean if you saw a sitcom doing then: "I can't look like glasses, I'm a nerd" now people would look at you and go: "So?" 

Yes, its exactly like that. There's no way Jill wouldn't get a regular check up or make sure her kids and Tim had regular check ups too (well maybe not Tim when he's in the ER all the time). Its not in character for her to go ten years without a check up or never have Mark's eyes checked. If we're talking Frankie Heck from the Middle, yes she totally would skip ten if not more years and rarely if ever take her kids to the doctor. Jill on the other hand no. I've never understood the glasses means nerds when so many people wear glass plus what is it cooler to not wear glasses and be blind? I got glasses in 90s in high school and was happy to do so. It was really nice to be able finally see better.  

 

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Yes, that's what I didn't get, because Tim was the most successful and why? He said it best: "I did my best trying to be like my dad and my mom had to keep everything going and pay the bills and raise 5 boys." He got it. He knew it was hard work, he could still be himself, but he knew he had to work for everything. We never got that with Marty or Jeff. Marty was constantly: "I hate doing this and I wish everyone would do everything for me." I get he was the baby of the family, but really when you look at it, it seemed that Tim was more of the brother always involved with Marty from picking on him or showing him how to do things. Jeff, who was the oldest just could never get it together and his two previous ex-wives all sounded like that they just settled for each other with: "this is the best I'm going to do." Which is a recipe for disaster right there for both parties. If anything, Lucille was very patient with all of them, but more with Jeff and Marty until Marty and Nancy divorced. 

Yeah I don't get that either. Marty had two examples of working hard equally success in two different ways his Mm who had to and Tim who went to college, worked hard to be Binford's top salesperson and became really close to Binford which worked out in many other ways he came to Tim with Tool Time and helped Tim and Jill out with getting the house. I know Marty's the youngest and they tend to get babied the most. I have a hard time seeing Lucille doing that but maybe she did as she started seeing how her three of her sons turned out. Or maybe he just benefited from more attention from Lucille then his brothers who lost that when their dad died and she had to go to work. Marty grew up and the other boys left the house he got more time with Lucille and maybe she didn't have to work so hard. Or he looked up to his other brothers more? I don't know. Its like when Lucille tells Tim that Jeff looks up to Tim so much because he has a successful career and family. But then how does he not see that both take hard work? Neither happened over night. Tim went to college. Its not really as hard as it looks. Go to college or get a job. A real one and work your way up or until you find something else you want to do. I do wonder in Jeff's case if he fell apart and was unable to get it together after his father died or self sabotage himself in fear of being just like his dad a career and kids and dying like his father did. Tim admitted he worried about that in one episode he has all boys like his dad does. Jeff doesn't get a real job until the end of the show when he buys into the hardware store. Maybe he finally gets it together then and marries Carrie? I don't know. 

[readster]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

Yes, its exactly like that. There's no way Jill wouldn't get a regular check up or make sure her kids and Tim had regular check ups too (well maybe not Tim when he's in the ER all the time). Its not in character for her to go ten years without a check up or never have Mark's eyes checked. If we're talking Frankie Heck from the Middle, yes she totally would skip ten if not more years and rarely if ever take her kids to the doctor. Jill on the other hand no. I've never understood the glasses means nerds when so many people wear glass plus what is it cooler to not wear glasses and be blind? I got glasses in 90s in high school and was happy to do so. It was really nice to be able finally see better.  

 

Yeah, I don't get it, especially in the The Longest Day when they thought Randy might have cancer. Sounded like the boys had their yearly check up no problem. Though, how Brad through he could sneak a urine sample in a yogurt cup. Which then the nurses when crazy finding raspberry yogurt in it. I wanted to go: "So, no one noticed that Brad had been hauling a cup of yogurt with him and didn't say anything." I also like how Jill's first thought process was to hide it all from Randy and then proceeds to do everything that makes anyone past the age of 10 to go: "What is wrong with you?" Sign of the times or not, you think your son possibly has cancer, you call the kid in there with them. Everyone acted like: "oh, they can't handle the truth." 

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, readster said:

Yeah, I don't get it, especially in the The Longest Day when they thought Randy might have cancer. Sounded like the boys had their yearly check up no problem. Though, how Brad through he could sneak a urine sample in a yogurt cup. Which then the nurses when crazy finding raspberry yogurt in it. I wanted to go: "So, no one noticed that Brad had been hauling a cup of yogurt with him and didn't say anything." I also like how Jill's first thought process was to hide it all from Randy and then proceeds to do everything that makes anyone past the age of 10 to go: "What is wrong with you?" Sign of the times or not, you think your son possibly has cancer, you call the kid in there with them. Everyone acted like: "oh, they can't handle the truth." 

Yes, in that episode it really sounded like the boys would have their yearly checkup. Also later when they mention how Randy's various medical problems. There's no way any parent who had a kid that had various medical problems would blow off yearly checkups. I don't know how Brad thought that would have worked either. The nurse would have found raspberries and found that odd. He'd been busted. I agree they should have told Randy. He was old enough to hear the truth. If he was six or something then yes I can see not telling him. At that age? There's no way Randy's not going to go look it up on the computers.       

[readster]

16 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Yes, in that episode it really sounded like the boys would have their yearly checkup. Also later when they mention how Randy's various medical problems. There's no way any parent who had a kid that had various medical problems would blow off yearly checkups. I don't know how Brad thought that would have worked either. The nurse would have found raspberries and found that odd. He'd been busted. I agree they should have told Randy. He was old enough to hear the truth. If he was six or something then yes I can see not telling him. At that age? There's no way Randy's not going to go look it up on the computers.       

I know what you mean and the other night I was watching Tim's old car again. Jill's exact words: "Brad is going to college next year, I'm graduating this year, getting the car redone is going to cost money! You can't get it!" At this point, Brad was two episodes away from getting the scholarship and I don't know what the writers were thinking. Jill was defending the following semester. The tuition bill was paid by then, she DIDN'T HAVE ANY LOANS! Now, if this would have been right after Tim was talked into buying Harry's hardware, that would have made more sense, but that was done in the last 6 episodes, since they didn't know the show was going to end yet. Plus, even bigger, all Jill had to do in that moment was go: "We can't buy the store, that's why we are doing this party. It's just not an investment we can do right now. Instead, both Tim and Jill come looking like they accidentally wrote a blank check instead of just telling everyone there: "We can't buy the store." Why Jill couldn't open her big mouth in that moment, I have no idea. Yet, she shuts down Tim from any buys since "the Look" in season 4 every time Tim wanted to spend money. The writers were really trying to say: "Jill doesn't like spending if Tim wants to, she wears the spending pants in the family." Where you want to go: "Yeah, doesn't work that way." 

[andromeda331]

21 hours ago, readster said:

I know what you mean and the other night I was watching Tim's old car again. Jill's exact words: "Brad is going to college next year, I'm graduating this year, getting the car redone is going to cost money! You can't get it!" At this point, Brad was two episodes away from getting the scholarship and I don't know what the writers were thinking. Jill was defending the following semester. The tuition bill was paid by then, she DIDN'T HAVE ANY LOANS! Now, if this would have been right after Tim was talked into buying Harry's hardware, that would have made more sense, but that was done in the last 6 episodes, since they didn't know the show was going to end yet. Plus, even bigger, all Jill had to do in that moment was go: "We can't buy the store, that's why we are doing this party. It's just not an investment we can do right now. Instead, both Tim and Jill come looking like they accidentally wrote a blank check instead of just telling everyone there: "We can't buy the store." Why Jill couldn't open her big mouth in that moment, I have no idea. 

I don't know what they were thinking either. Yes, Brad was going to get a scholarship, Jill's college classes were all paid for by that point, she was graduating there were no more coming up, plus there was a good chance that Randy was also going to get a scholarship from his year in Costa Rica, the only question was Mark and he was still four years away from having to worry about that. That's always their problem when they decide to do an episode of "oh no how can we afford this?" when we have never seen them actually have to do that. We don't see them cutting back on expenses, worrying about paying their bills and there's also the really big elephant in the wall of Jill not working since season four. If you can go to college as an adult and not have to work the entire time even though you had a husband and kids your not hurting for money. Its hard to suddenly by the on no we can't buy the hardware store or no we can't buy Tim's first car or season tickets. The hardware store they "accidentally" buy why doesn't Jill say something then? She had no problem speaking up all the other times but this time nope she won't say anything. 

 

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Yet, she shuts down Tim from any buys since "the Look" in season 4 every time Tim wanted to spend money. The writers were really trying to say: "Jill doesn't like spending if Tim wants to, she wears the spending pants in the family." Where you want to

go: "Yeah, doesn't work that way." 

That's what they were trying to say. Jill wears the pants, she makes all the decisions. For one she really only makes the decisions when its something Tim wants. If its something she wants then its no big deal. They can afford it.  When it comes to Jill they always end up making her look the opposite of what their trying to make her look.   

[Was-MArsenault]

Does anyone know the name of an episode where Mark is seen sitting down on the swing talking to someone, a girl perhaps?

Edited November 26, 2018 by MikaelaArsenault

[readster]

11 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

I don't know what they were thinking either. Yes, Brad was going to get a scholarship, Jill's college classes were all paid for by that point, she was graduating there were no more coming up, plus there was a good chance that Randy was also going to get a scholarship from his year in Costa Rica, the only question was Mark and he was still four years away from having to worry about that. That's always their problem when they decide to do an episode of "oh no how can we afford this?" when we have never seen them actually have to do that. We don't see them cutting back on expenses, worrying about paying their bills and there's also the really big elephant in the wall of Jill not working since season four. If you can go to college as an adult and not have to work the entire time even though you had a husband and kids your not hurting for money. Its hard to suddenly by the on no we can't buy the hardware store or no we can't buy Tim's first car or season tickets. The hardware store they "accidentally" buy why doesn't Jill say something then? She had no problem speaking up all the other times but this time nope she won't say anything. 

 

That's what they were trying to say. Jill wears the pants, she makes all the decisions. For one she really only makes the decisions when its something Tim wants. If its something she wants then its no big deal. They can afford it.  When it comes to Jill they always end up making her look the opposite of what their trying to make her look.   

Plus, you have to add in how Jill "had to be the one" to fix the boys problems. Having the superior complex, but at times worst than her father. Fred was: "Bah, I hate this so you can't do it either, I forbid it." Everyone in the family was: "Ok, let's just make your father happy and not tell him things or correct him when he is way, way, way wrong about things!" Sad to say, I have first hand experience as that's how my wife's family handled her father with that attitude. Even today, you even do something nice for him or try to tell him something he is: "hey, I don't appreciate being told I'm wrong or helping me out by simply picking up the phone because I'm emptying out the garbage. I'm a grown man, I can do it dammit and I'm in my 70s I know better than anyone alive!" Jill just wanted to be in control at times and she had her own world view and if you got in that way, hell would come down.

  Of course in a way you could add in Tim's attitude towards women. He loved his mother, had a good relationship with his mother-in-law, but yet can't help but feeling inferior when a woman would know more about: cars, being a power lifter, foreman, ect." he get all up in a huff. When his mother, who had to go back to work, pay for a large house, raise five boys from the ages of 1-15. Even made it for their various events. Tim is: "that is so like a woman" attitude. Where the hell that come from? Even in the talk and flashbacks, the only think they ever made fun of was Lucille always burning the turkey. It goes with Marty having this: "I don't like this, so I'm going to quit, even my family." Seriously, where did it come from? You got Jill and her families attitudes, except for where the hell Fred was all: "Bah, I hate the clouds in the sky." However, with Tim's family and upbringing you think they were from broken homes.

Edited November 26, 2018 by readster

[andromeda331]

21 hours ago, readster said:

Plus, you have to add in how Jill "had to be the one" to fix the boys problems. Having the superior complex, but at times worst than her father. Fred was: "Bah, I hate this so you can't do it either, I forbid it." Everyone in the family was: "Ok, let's just make your father happy and not tell him things or correct him when he is way, way, way wrong about things!" Sad to say, I have first hand experience as that's how my wife's family handled her father with that attitude. Even today, you even do something nice for him or try to tell him something he is: "hey, I don't appreciate being told I'm wrong or helping me out by simply picking up the phone because I'm emptying out the garbage. I'm a grown man, I can do it dammit and I'm in my 70s I know better than anyone alive!" Jill just wanted to be in control at times and she had her own world view and if you got in that way, hell would come down.

Yes, she had to be the one to fix the boys problems just as she had to be the one to fix other people's problems.  Only she Jill could fix things no one else could certainly not Tim. She of course never noticed how many times she didn't fix things or how often Tim was the one to fix problems. Yet for most of the show she never connected how much she was like her father. She does in that one episode but that's it and doesn't do anything with it or change. You'd think that would be a huge eye opening for her and she'd rethink things or start seeing other ways she was like her father. But nope never did. Instead despite all her complaints about her father she becomes just like him. Everything has to be done her way, she was always right, and only her point of view counted.  Tim called it right at that marriage counseling thing when he says she expects him to know how she's feeling and what she's thinking all of the time. 

She doesn't go as far as for bid doing things like her mother didn't do a lot of things because of Fred didn't like things. But she was constantly annoyed by sports, tools and most things that Tim likes. She certainly never viewed them as important despite living with Tim for over a decade it should be clear to her how important it is to him. She dismisses it or plans dinners or romantic getaways during important sports events and gets mad it doesn't work out.  She doesn't realize how important sports is to Brad even though she knows he's banking on a scholarship if she did she wouldn't have tried TWICE to talk him out of playing soccer. First the insane one of her talking him out of playing soccer in England even though that's really the only place he could have a real soccer career and make good money. The second when the UCLA scout comes to see Brad even though his knee may not be ready. She wants him to wait and tells him there's always next year except no there isn't. Scouts aren't coming back next year and Brad will never get a soccer scholarship and maybe not even play soccer for any college. There will be new crop of high school seniors that will take all of those sports. But because its not a big deal to her. She doesn't see that way nor does she do any of the research into the sport even though that's something that's clearly important to Brad and for his college and possibly his pro-career.  

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  Of course in a way you could add in Tim's attitude towards women. He loved his mother, had a good relationship with his mother-in-law, but yet can't help but feeling inferior when a woman would know more about: cars, being a power lifter, foreman, ect." he get all up in a huff. When his mother, who had to go back to work, pay for a large house, raise five boys from the ages of 1-15. Even made it for their various events. Tim is: "that is so like a woman" attitude. Where the hell that come from? Even in the talk and flashbacks, the only think they ever made fun of was Lucille always burning the turkey. It goes with Marty having this: "I don't like this, so I'm going to quit, even my family." Seriously, where did it come from? You got Jill and her families attitudes, except for where the hell Fred was all: "Bah, I hate the clouds in the sky." 

That's a good point. It doesn't make any sense given Tim's background. He has loves his mother and watched her go back to work and raise five sons after losing her husband. He has a good relationship with his mother-in-law, with Heidi. Where does that come from? Why is he so surprised to meet women who know stuff like that? Its hard to believe he hasn't met other women who were interest in tools, cars and other things before. It would make more sense if he was raised in household more like Fred's where Fred assumed he was always right or by a father who thought that that way. But he really wasn't. Nothing we've heard about Tim's dad suggest he was like that. So where is getting that 'tude from? When Lauren expresses an interest in cars Tim's happy and ready to talk cars with her.  

 

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However, with Tim's family and upbringing you think they were from broken homes.

I love this remark because its so true. You'd think that's where Tim and Marty came from. Broken homes. Marty has a chip on his shoulder in regards to working and raising a family. While Tim has as a very male type 'tude towards women.  But no they were raised in a loving home. There was the big hardship when their dad died. But they saw their mother keep their family together, support and raise them all on her own. That's impressive and you'd think that Tim and Marty and their brothers would have turned out differently.  

[readster]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

 

That's a good point. It doesn't make any sense given Tim's background. He has loves his mother and watched her go back to work and raise five sons after losing her husband. He has a good relationship with his mother-in-law, with Heidi. Where does that come from? Why is he so surprised to meet women who know stuff like that? Its hard to believe he hasn't met other women who were interest in tools, cars and other things before. It would make more sense if he was raised in household more like Fred's where Fred assumed he was always right or by a father who thought that that way. But he really wasn't. Nothing we've heard about Tim's dad suggest he was like that. So where is getting that 'tude from? When Lauren expresses an interest in cars Tim's happy and ready to talk cars with her.  

 

I love this remark because its so true. You'd think that's where Tim and Marty came from. Broken homes. Marty has a chip on his shoulder in regards to working and raising a family. While Tim has as a very male type 'tude towards women.  But no they were raised in a loving home. There was the big hardship when their dad died. But they saw their mother keep their family together, support and raise them all on her own. That's impressive and you'd think that Tim and Marty and their brothers would have turned out differently.  

The only thing I can think of is both Tim and Marty developed it on their own with their father being gone. Tim was shy of his teens when his father died and as he put it: "My dad didn't live long enough for me to be a jerk to him." So, I can see that Tim hit his teens, really got into auto club, and group of friends who did look at things that way and Tim developed it. Plus, like everything else he went over board on it and his dad wasn't there to be like: "Tim, telling people they are lower than you just because they know more than you and happen to be a woman, doesn't mean you should either think less of them or act like you have to out do them." I don't think Lucille ever thought that way, we know she had her "guy side" too on things when it came from wrestling to shooting peas out of her nose.

  With Marty, yeah he was the baby of the family and everyone was out of the house before he was even in his double digits. So, he had everything handed to him and Lucille wasn't forceful on things. So, she didn't lay the law down on him quitting like with Jeff or Tim. However, I see then why years later when Marty and Nancy divorced why she got so pissed at him and how his life got that way. However, it was too little, too late and about 10 years to late in attitude on working hard.

[Was-MArsenault]

On ‎11‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 1:03 PM, MikaelaArsenault said:

Does anyone know the name of an episode where Mark is seen sitting down on the swing talking to someone, a girl perhaps?

Never mind. It was the Neighbors episode.

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, readster said:

The only thing I can think of is both Tim and Marty developed it on their own with their father being gone. Tim was shy of his teens when his father died and as he put it: "My dad didn't live long enough for me to be a jerk to him." So, I can see that Tim hit his teens, really got into auto club, and group of friends who did look at things that way and Tim developed it. Plus, like everything else he went over board on it and his dad wasn't there to be like: "Tim, telling people they are lower than you just because they know more than you and happen to be a woman, doesn't mean you should either think less of them or act like you have to out do them." I don't think Lucille ever thought that way, we know she had her "guy side" too on things when it came from wrestling to shooting peas out of her nose.

  With Marty, yeah he was the baby of the family and everyone was out of the house before he was even in his double digits. So, he had everything handed to him and Lucille wasn't forceful on things. So, she didn't lay the law down on him quitting like with Jeff or Tim. However, I see then why years later when Marty and Nancy divorced why she got so pissed at him and how his life got that way. However, it was too little, too late and about 10 years to late in attitude on working hard.

True that does make a difference three other things made a difference with Tim compared to his brothers that worked out well for him first was his wanting to be just like his father. That helped him and keep him focused on cars and tools and give him something to work towards, the second was his shop teacher who Tim looked up to like a second father, he listened to him, learned from him, he tried to keep Tim from going overboard and went to bat for him when Tim almost got expelled. To know he had someone willing to do that for him made a huge difference. Third was Binford. Tim worked hard and struck up a really close friendship with him. He worked hard and that worked out with Tool Time and Binford helped Tim and Jill out. Jill also probably does too. When Tim messes up or does the wrong thing he makes up for it. For all his goofing off he wants his marriage to work, he wanted to be a success like his dad and have a family.

Marty didn't seem to have that he knew the shop teacher but didn't have the same relationship. Although its possibly Marty wasn't interested.  Tim mentioned time to time that he took care of Marty after their dad died. But none of Tim's hard work and other things rubbed off on him. He became an adult still thinking everything sound be handed to him. Or assumed that was what was happened with Tim and didn't notice the hard work. He never seems to think that he really needs to do anything. He doesn't need to work, he doesn't need to help Nancy parent their kids. Tim's opinions are listened too because he's putting the work and got the reputation and skills. Marty's aren't because he doesn't have that. But he still thinks he should. Lucille never pushed him or laid down the law. Which seems to be a mistake but once again Marty never took notice of how much work his mother put in to raise him and his brothers, to support him and his brothers. If he did he wouldn't be complaining so much about his jobs. He expects to be handed things. Yet when he's handed jobs he keeps blowing them. I mean by the episode where Tim buys the hardware store I was really having a hard time wondering how Tim doesn't get mad at him and goes off on him. Marty spends the entire episode sending customers to other hardware stores that have better prices and being a crappy salesperson. His only comment was maybe he's not cut out to be salesperson. He's not even bothering to try. He's a grown man probably in his thirties who has lost who know how many jobs, living with his brother's family, and his daughters when he has custody and he's given yet another job that he blows because he can't be bother to even try. How does Tim not get fed up with that? He's trying to keep the hardware store from going under AND losing his money while his brother is sending customers to the other hardware store.  

13 minutes ago, MikaelaArsenault said:

Never mind. It was the Neighbors episode.

Is that the one where Mark is trying to score points with the girl who just broke up with her boyfriend and messes it up when he doesn't hear what she said and repeats the same line? Or is it a different girl?

[Was-MArsenault]

6 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

True that does make a difference three other things made a difference with Tim compared to his brothers that worked out well for him first was his wanting to be just like his father. That helped him and keep him focused on cars and tools and give him something to work towards, the second was his shop teacher who Tim looked up to like a second father, he listened to him, learned from him, he tried to keep Tim from going overboard and went to bat for him when Tim almost got expelled. To know he had someone willing to do that for him made a huge difference. Third was Binford. Tim worked hard and struck up a really close friendship with him. He worked hard and that worked out with Tool Time and Binford helped Tim and Jill out. Jill also probably does too. When Tim messes up or does the wrong thing he makes up for it. For all his goofing off he wants his marriage to work, he wanted to be a success like his dad and have a family.

Marty didn't seem to have that he knew the shop teacher but didn't have the same relationship. Although its possibly Marty wasn't interested.  Tim mentioned time to time that he took care of Marty after their dad died. But none of Tim's hard work and other things rubbed off on him. He became an adult still thinking everything sound be handed to him. Or assumed that was what was happened with Tim and didn't notice the hard work. He never seems to think that he really needs to do anything. He doesn't need to work, he doesn't need to help Nancy parent their kids. Tim's opinions are listened too because he's putting the work and got the reputation and skills. Marty's aren't because he doesn't have that. But he still thinks he should. Lucille never pushed him or laid down the law. Which seems to be a mistake but once again Marty never took notice of how much work his mother put in to raise him and his brothers, to support him and his brothers. If he did he wouldn't be complaining so much about his jobs. He expects to be handed things. Yet when he's handed jobs he keeps blowing them. I mean by the episode where Tim buys the hardware store I was really having a hard time wondering how Tim doesn't get mad at him and goes off on him. Marty spends the entire episode sending customers to other hardware stores that have better prices and being a crappy salesperson. His only comment was maybe he's not cut out to be salesperson. He's not even bothering to try. He's a grown man probably in his thirties who has lost who know how many jobs, living with his brother's family, and his daughters when he has custody and he's given yet another job that he blows because he can't be bother to even try. How does Tim not get fed up with that? He's trying to keep the hardware store from going under AND losing his money while his brother is sending customers to the other hardware store.  

Is that the one where Mark is trying to score points with the girl who just broke up with her boyfriend and messes it up when he doesn't hear what she said and repeats the same line? Or is it a different girl?

Here is what the girl looks like.

[andromeda331]

5 minutes ago, MikaelaArsenault said:

Here is what the girl looks like.

It looks like her name is Andreana Weiner and she was also in Addams Family Values she's listed as Obnoxious Girl.

[Was-MArsenault]

1 minute ago, andromeda331 said:

It looks like her name is Andreana Weiner and she was also in Addams Family Values she's listed as Obnoxious Girl.

The name of the girl is Jenny.

4 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

It looks like her name is Andreana Weiner and she was also in Addams Family Values she's listed as Obnoxious Girl.

How do you know that though?

[andromeda331]

15 minutes ago, MikaelaArsenault said:

The name of the girl is Jenny.

How do you know that though?

I looked her up on Imbd website which lists Home Improvement as Jenny and Addams Family Value but listed as Obnoxious Girl. She was also in Star Trek the Next Generation for one episode Dark Page as Kestra Troi, a couple other TV shows I don't really remember Red Dragon and Philly in an episode a piece. One episode of Boston Public. But mostly seems to have done a lot of voice work in TMNT, Infamous, Jennifer's Body, the Starving Games, Finding Dory, Punisher War Zone, Club Dredd or loop group in Red Riding Hood, Pacific Rim, and the Great Gatsby. She seems to have kept busy since HI.

[Was-MArsenault]

5 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

I looked her up on Imbd website which lists Home Improvement as Jenny and Addams Family Value but listed as Obnoxious Girl. She was also in Star Trek the Next Generation for one episode Dark Page as Kestra Troi, a couple other TV shows I don't really remember Red Dragon and Philly in an episode a piece. One episode of Boston Public. But mostly seems to have done a lot of voice work in TMNT, Infamous, Jennifer's Body, the Starving Games, Finding Dory, Punisher War Zone, Club Dredd or loop group in Red Riding Hood, Pacific Rim, and the Great Gatsby. She seems to have kept busy since HI.

I was just on her IMDB page as a matter of fact.

[readster]

3 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Marty never took notice of how much work his mother put in to raise him and his brothers, to support him and his brothers. If he did he wouldn't be complaining so much about his jobs. He expects to be handed things. Yet when he's handed jobs he keeps blowing them. I mean by the episode where Tim buys the hardware store I was really having a hard time wondering how Tim doesn't get mad at him and goes off on him. Marty spends the entire episode sending customers to other hardware stores that have better prices and being a crappy salesperson. His only comment was maybe he's not cut out to be salesperson. He's not even bothering to try. He's a grown man probably in his thirties who has lost who know how many jobs, living with his brother's family, and his daughters when he has custody and he's given yet another job that he blows because he can't be bother to even try. How does Tim not get fed up with that? He's trying to keep the hardware store from going under AND losing his money while his brother is sending customers to the other hardware store.  

Yeah, after that I just couldn't stand Marty anymore. To be that stupid to mess up like that, when he knew Tim got talked into buying the store and just through out a ton of money, he wasn't going to get back if it went under. It was like the only time Marty really got yelled at was by Lucille on Christmas and at that time, it was really unwarranted. I never got both Jill or WIlson's reaction to Tim saying that Marty needed to grow up and was being selfish. Yet they go: "Well, did you listen to him?" What was there to listen? Marty didn't even give the whole story under afterwards. One of those times where Tim is made to look like the bad guy and he didn't do anything wrong. I also want to know why Tim had to tell Jill: "Admit your life is over and move on." Why would he say that? Especially, when he never said that in the first place. Jill replies that it sounds like that was what Tim told him at Big Mike's and that wasn't the word at all. Plus, everyone at the bar heard what he was doing. Strangers or not, you don't think someone would't have gone: "Why would you even THINK of leaving your family? How is that going to make things better for everyone?" 

[andromeda331]

16 minutes ago, readster said:

Yeah, after that I just couldn't stand Marty anymore. To be that stupid to mess up like that, when he knew Tim got talked into buying the store and just through out a ton of money, he wasn't going to get back if it went under. It was like the only time Marty really got yelled at was by Lucille on Christmas and at that time, it was really unwarranted. 

I really couldn't anymore by that point. He knows his brother sunk a ton of money into the hardware store, plus his own job, and yet he wouldn't do the job. I know Jeff said Marty would be still working their but I'm betting unless Marty somehow finally got a clue that Jeff would be firing him in a matter of weeks if not days. Its ironic that Marty does that it the episode where Jeff does buy into the hardware store and seems really excited about it. It seems like he might finally be done and ready to move on.

 

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I never got both Jill or WIlson's reaction to Tim saying that Marty needed to grow up and was being selfish. Yet they go: "Well, did you listen to him?" What was there to listen? Marty didn't even give the whole story under afterwards. One of those times where Tim is made to look like the bad guy and he didn't do anything wrong. I also want to know why Tim had to tell Jill: "Admit your life is over and move on." Why would he say that? Especially, when he never said that in the first place. Jill replies that it sounds like that was what Tim told him at Big Mike's and that wasn't the word at all. Plus, everyone at the bar heard what he was doing. 

I never understood that either. Both act like Tim did the wrong thing when Marty was the one who was thinking of bailing on his family. Tim told him exactly that Marty need to hear. He did need to grow up and he was being selfish. It was all to hard for him so he was going to leave his wife and children and leave her to take care of the kids. But no they get mad at Tim. Wilson tells Tim be less judgmental. I mean really? That's your comment to the person trying to convince his brother not bail on his family? What exactly do they think Tim should have said? Jill thinks she should talk to Marty, I'd love to see how that would go. We've seen how well she's done with Randy's girlfriend's parents, Heidi, her insane theories about Trudy, butting into her parents problem she fixed that didn't she? Oh no wait she got yelled at by both her parents Tim fixed that one.   Oh, right Jill thinks she can fix anything.

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Strangers or not, you don't think someone would't have gone: "Why would you even THINK of leaving your family? How is that going to make things better for everyone?" 

I'm really surprised that didn't happen. Marty told Tim in the bar and Tim mentions later that only him and everyone at Big Mikes knows. Its surprising that no one else said anything. There's no way they didn't or that some wouldn't have said something. Whether its remarking that they've all be there after the birth of the first kid or second when your so busy its hard. Or get on him for bailing. Or like you said "Why would you even THINK of leaving your family? How is that going to make things better for everyone?".  That crowd as gives their two cents all the time but not now? Maybe it would helped to hear from a bunch of different men that it was hard so he's not the only one or get on his case. Who knows maybe Marty needed that from a bunch of different men.

[readster]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

I never understood that either. Both act like Tim did the wrong thing when Marty was the one who was thinking of bailing on his family. Tim told him exactly that Marty need to hear. He did need to grow up and he was being selfish. It was all to hard for him so he was going to leave his wife and children and leave her to take care of the kids. But no they get mad at Tim. Wilson tells Tim be less judgmental. I mean really? That's your comment to the person trying to convince his brother not bail on his family? What exactly do they think Tim should have said? Jill thinks she should talk to Marty, I'd love to see how that would go. We've seen how well she's done with Randy's girlfriend's parents, Heidi, her insane theories about Trudy, butting into her parents problem she fixed that didn't she? Oh no wait she got yelled at by both her parents Tim fixed that one.   Oh, right Jill thinks she can fix anything.

 

Yeah, it was odd that after all the time's that Jill had to be right or fix things. She never raises several points about Marty and Nancy after they do finally divorce in season 8. When Tim gets tricked into buying the hardware store, she just stares looking dumb founded. Instead of: "No, Tim didn't say that and we CAN'T buy it, we have three boys to get through college." Or how about when she is: "Ok, Randy, go to Costa Rica, it's cool!" When she always gets up in arms with any major change. I mean, she can't see Brad getting a chance to play professional soccer and get money to later go to school with it or why Harry should just sell the Hardware Store or feel that Tim doesn't "need season tickets" for a team he loves and watches all the time. Yet, when things like Marty, Wilson wanting to move out of town or just saying to her dissertation chair that she wants to actually know when she is going to graduate instead of beating around the bush. She decides to just stay quiet. 

[andromeda331]

On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 6:46 PM, readster said:

Yeah, it was odd that after all the time's that Jill had to be right or fix things. She never raises several points about Marty and Nancy after they do finally divorce in season 8. When Tim gets tricked into buying the hardware store, she just stares looking dumb founded. Instead of: "No, Tim didn't say that and we CAN'T buy it, we have three boys to get through college." Or how about when she is: "Ok, Randy, go to Costa Rica, it's cool!" When she always gets up in arms with any major change. I mean, she can't see Brad getting a chance to play professional soccer and get money to later go to school with it or why Harry should just sell the Hardware Store or feel that Tim doesn't "need season tickets" for a team he loves and watches all the time. Yet, when things like Marty, Wilson wanting to move out of town or just saying to her dissertation chair that she wants to actually know when she is going to graduate instead of beating around the bush. She decides to just stay quiet. 

No she doesn't. She always stays quiet when she shouldn't or could speak up. Amazing how that always happens from the one person who really thinks she can fix everything and is always right. You'd really think she would but nope. Doesn't say a word. No she won't say anything when they accidentally buy the hardware store. Ah, Jill why didn't you speak up then? What happened to not being able to spend that kind of money. Honestly, I think she didn't speak up because she didn't want to be seen as the "bad" person. Its basically the same thing as her always wanting to be the one to fix things and be the hero. She also doesn't want to be seen as the "bad" person who makes her husband back out of buying the hardware store in front of everyone at the party. Later if Tim backed out they'd know it was Jill not Tim who wanted to do that. Tim was all for buying it. The Costa Rica/England thing is infuriating because its the exact same thing except Brad would actually be getting paid. She jumps all over Tim when he convinces Randy not to go. But then she does the same thing to Brad and she wins. Not only is she insane to make Brad pass up the once in a lifetime opportunity.  When she yells at Tim for convincing Randy to stay she says she doesn't want Randy to resent them for making him miss such an opportunity. Yet has no problem doing the same thing to Brad. Honestly Brad should have been furious over that and remained mad for a very long time. That was huge opportunity Jill made him pass up. Even though she allowed his younger brother to do basically the same thing.

Edited November 29, 2018 by andromeda331

[readster]

After watching season 5-6 on Laff. I have finally figured it out, while Alma and even Cal did not have a problem with Tim's jokes over Alma's weight and even Pastor Mike's replies on Soul Man and on Home Improvement. The person who had the problems was Al, he just didn't like them. The problem is, Al knew his mother's issues, he knew everyone found Alma to be a very clingy and very over weight woman, who was probably going to send herself to an early grave (which she did). I think the problem is, when she finally died in the final season, it really freed Al up. He sadly needed that situation, because it was at the point where Alma could have stubbed her toe and he would have thrown a fit about it. Something that was a problem with the group theorpy episode again. When everyone goes on Tim on why he makes fun of Al and his mother all the time or even call out that Tim kept holding down the trigger that got oil over Al. All Tim had to say was: "Well, Al is like a brother to me and if you knew us Taylor boys, this is how we showed affection." "I mean, our dad died early, Al's father died young." "We both love tools, we both worked out way up." "I see Al as that other brother, I never had, I just can't stand his falonal addiction just because his dad put them on him all the time." 

[andromeda331]

On ‎12‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 7:32 AM, readster said:

After watching season 5-6 on Laff. I have finally figured it out, while Alma and even Cal did not have a problem with Tim's jokes over Alma's weight and even Pastor Mike's replies on Soul Man and on Home Improvement. The person who had the problems was Al, he just didn't like them. The problem is, Al knew his mother's issues, he knew everyone found Alma to be a very clingy and very over weight woman, who was probably going to send herself to an early grave (which she did). I think the problem is, when she finally died in the final season, it really freed Al up. He sadly needed that situation, because it was at the point where Alma could have stubbed her toe and he would have thrown a fit about it. Something that was a problem with the group theorpy episode again. When everyone goes on Tim on why he makes fun of Al and his mother all the time or even call out that Tim kept holding down the trigger that got oil over Al. All Tim had to say was: "Well, Al is like a brother to me and if you knew us Taylor boys, this is how we showed affection." "I mean, our dad died early, Al's father died young." "We both love tools, we both worked out way up." "I see Al as that other brother, I never had, I just can't stand his falonal addiction just because his dad put them on him all the time." 

I bet your right. I always wondered why they mentioned that Alma loved the jokes when they had Al complaining and getting upset for the entire series about them. I thought he hated him because his mother watched the show (she seemed like the type to watch every episode) and he worried she was hurt by him. But if she wasn't then why get so upset? It makes sense that it was Al that was the one so upset. But then why is he still upset after Tim tells him that he considers him like a brother and treats him like one. He and his brothers joke all of the time. Maybe it was part of the promise his father gave him? I don't know. Although you'd think he and Tim would have talked about it since they both lost their fathers young. Al seemed to think he really had to be at his mother's beck and call even though he worked with someone who lost is father young too but he still had a life and so did his mother. Did he never think about Lucille who lived on her own and went on trips and had full life? His brother Cal didn't seem to have the same problem stuck doing everything for his mother unless he did so while Al was in the navy.  It would have been nice to see Tim and Al talk a little more about the similar losses and at such a young age. I do wish we had gotten to see Al stand up to his mother. If you think of how far he came from season one growing in confidence, two serious girlfriends (maybe three I don't remember how long he dated Greta but it was more then one episode), invested in the hardware store, directed a video, finally managed to put Ilene first before his mother. It seemed like it should have been the next natural step.

I do wish Tim had said that when people got on him about all his jokes about Al. Although you'd think some would realize that. Tim makes jokes about everyone. There isn't anyone he hasn't teased and make jokes about.  Also point out that he's not the only one making the jokes about Alma. Pretty much everyone else does but he's the only one who gets people saying stuff.  He also was the only one who said anything at Alma's eulogy, I didn't see Jill, Wilson or anyone else saying something nice at her funeral.  

[readster]

14 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I do wish Tim had said that when people got on him about all his jokes about Al. Although you'd think some would realize that. Tim makes jokes about everyone. There isn't anyone he hasn't teased and make jokes about.  Also point out that he's not the only one making the jokes about Alma. Pretty much everyone else does but he's the only one who gets people saying stuff.  He also was the only one who said anything at Alma's eulogy, I didn't see Jill, Wilson or anyone else saying something nice at her funeral.  

Exactly! Al acted like Tim just made fun of him. I mean Tim even made fun of Wilson's attics at time including how he played tricks on Wilson and why he got so upset at Tim and pulled that Halloween Prank on him in the last season. Tim got it a lot from Lucille and apparently Tim's dad made jokes too. Randy also took after Tim in the humor department. Plus, even Harry made a point that it was very hard NOT to make fun of Alma Borlan. 

  Going back to when Randy also got beaten up by that High school senior. I noticed there were people in the shoe store watching it happen. Including an older woman about a few feet away just staring at them. I get she was an extra, but when Jill said: "Find an adult!" I wanted to go: "There were two there and they were acting like, boys will be boys."

[readster]

After watching the last couple of seasons up to just before Randy get's his license. I wanted to know what was the Taylor's mysterious 4th vehicle was. Early in the show, we knew that Tim was driving another car and Jill was in the Nomad. Since the Nomad had several references almost EVERY season. So, how was Tim getting to work? How were the boys getting around before they had their license? We saw as Tim and Jill bought Brad the new car and then Jill bought the Hellie. However, what the "car" that was references the first few season? Was it a mini van? A 4 door sedan? Especially when Tim crushed the Nomad at the construction site. What was Jill getting around in? Plus, this also puts the Taylors money situation into another question. Tim had a mechanic, he knew how to do oil changes. They were flat out buying their cars right off the bat .There were no regular monthly payments outside of insurance. So, why did they always feel that Jill had to bring up money concerns when it was something Tim wanted?

[andromeda331]

On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 2:21 PM, readster said:

Exactly! Al acted like Tim just made fun of him. I mean Tim even made fun of Wilson's attics at time including how he played tricks on Wilson and why he got so upset at Tim and pulled that Halloween Prank on him in the last season. Tim got it a lot from Lucille and apparently Tim's dad made jokes too. Randy also took after Tim in the humor department. Plus, even Harry made a point that it was very hard NOT to make fun of Alma Borlan. 

  Going back to when Randy also got beaten up by that High school senior. I noticed there were people in the shoe store watching it happen. Including an older woman about a few feet away just staring at them. I get she was an extra, but when Jill said: "Find an adult!" I wanted to go: "There were two there and they were acting like, boys will be boys."

He really did even though it was obvious Tim made fun of everyone. There was an adult in the store? I didn't think there was. Well, that's a crappy person. Who doesn't step up when your the adult and some kid is bullying another kid? Randy was seconds away from getting beaten up.  But yes that goes back to the point. Jill gets ticked off at Mark and Randy who both did the right thing. Randy accidentally stepped on the guy's shoes which he apologized for. The guy didn't care. Randy tried to defuse the situation with jokes that didn't work either. He was about get beaten up in a store where apparently there was an adult in the store who did nothing. Mark intervening was the last option and afterwards they both ran away. To be fair Mark didn't know what do after he knocked the other boy into the shoes but running away was exactly what they should have done. He stopped the boy from hurting Randy and they both got away from the boy. Yet Jill yells at them as if they did something wrong. She should have been impressed at how they both handled the situation and grateful that neither were hurt. 

On ‎12‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 10:42 AM, readster said:

After watching the last couple of seasons up to just before Randy get's his license. I wanted to know what was the Taylor's mysterious 4th vehicle was. Early in the show, we knew that Tim was driving another car and Jill was in the Nomad. Since the Nomad had several references almost EVERY season. So, how was Tim getting to work? How were the boys getting around before they had their license? We saw as Tim and Jill bought Brad the new car and then Jill bought the Hellie. However, what the "car" that was references the first few season? Was it a mini van? A 4 door sedan? Especially when Tim crushed the Nomad at the construction site. What was Jill getting around in? Plus, this also puts the Taylors money situation into another question. Tim had a mechanic, he knew how to do oil changes. They were flat out buying their cars right off the bat .There were no regular monthly payments outside of insurance. So, why did they always feel that Jill had to bring up money concerns when it was something Tim wanted?

Let's see there was Nomad, the Hellie, Tim mentions his Mustang in the episode with Jill and her sisters when she wonders why they took a cab. I thought they had another car earlier but I can't seem to find anything on it. I always thought it was a station wagon or minivan or something. But they didn't seem to have a problem coming up with money to match how much Brad had so he could buy a car. That came from Tim's car fund and he never seemed to worry about having to pay for parts whether it was for those cars or for the hot rod.  Did they not realize how Jill always seemed to complain about something Tim wanted? The rest of the time they spend like there's no tomorrow and I know I keep bringing this up but Jill didn't have a job for four or five years on the show. Tool Time must have paid pretty good to afford to support a family of five, bills, cars, car parts, college courses, and everything else. If its was really about money we should see them cutting back, worrying over paying bills, or something. The closest we ever got was when Tim asked how much college would cost when Jill first tells him she wanted to back to school to which she insisted it was cheaper then the hot rod. Which no Jill even if you went to community college for four years it still would cost more then the hot rod. More likely she wanted to have it both ways. She didn't want to spend the money on season tickets, and anything else that Tim wanted because she didn't like any of that stuff and brought up the only excuse she could come up with. How they could for it. Even though she's not working, she didn't work until the first season and didn't work again after she was laid off in season four. Their not stressed about money, she's not even going to classes year around in order to finish sooner and get a job. There really isn't any reason he couldn't buy what he wanted. Except she didn't want him to. 

Your comment about Tim having a mechanic and they do make a lot of references over the years and we meet some. But it made me think how odd its that Tim takes his cars to mechanics. He has the skills. We see him build two hot rods. Why doesn't he do the work and repairs himself? My dad was mechanic and the only time he took cars in was to his own shop to work on himself. Anything that needed to be done he did himself. He rebuilt engines, changed tires, replaced anything and everything that need to be replaced. He fixed everything. It would never occur to him to pay someone else/ Seeing your comment made me think about that and wonder why Tim doesn't do the same. He should have the skills to do so and the time since he's usually coming home in the afternoon.

[readster]

8 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

He really did even though it was obvious Tim made fun of everyone. There was an adult in the store? I didn't think there was. Well, that's a crappy person. Who doesn't step up when your the adult and some kid is bullying another kid? Randy was seconds away from getting beaten up.  But yes that goes back to the point. Jill gets ticked off at Mark and Randy who both did the right thing. Randy accidentally stepped on the guy's shoes which he apologized for. The guy didn't care. Randy tried to defuse the situation with jokes that didn't work either. He was about get beaten up in a store where apparently there was an adult in the store who did nothing. Mark intervening was the last option and afterwards they both ran away. To be fair Mark didn't know what do after he knocked the other boy into the shoes but running away was exactly what they should have done. He stopped the boy from hurting Randy and they both got away from the boy. Yet Jill yells at them as if they did something wrong. She should have been impressed at how they both handled the situation and grateful that neither were hurt. 

Here was another thing, it was a senior at Randy and Brad's high school. Why didn't Jill demand an apology from the kid for thinking of attacking her own son, when it was an accident that he even apologized for. Something I have never liked on shows and recently Fuller House is guilty about this too, when it's another person or teen that bullys or attacks one of the main cast members. They get it to where they are the victim or the main characters have to apologize to them. I know they had it happen on message board on Fuller House to where the producers said: "Sadly, we live in a world where a kid can bully and sell drugs and yet it's not their fault. That's why we did that." At least they backed up why they did the story, but at the same time, it would be great if a sitcom would actually address this crap. It happened on Home Improvement for years from Mark getting picked on in his first karate class to Tim being beaten up by the kid's dad and later the guy who's kid got his remote control car ran over. I hate the fact that shows will just gloss over bullying or the fact that grown adults can't discuss an issue all for the sake of a joke or to say: "Well, that's not how the world works." 

[andromeda331]

16 hours ago, readster said:

Here was another thing, it was a senior at Randy and Brad's high school. Why didn't Jill demand an apology from the kid for thinking of attacking her own son, when it was an accident that he even apologized for. Something I have never liked on shows and recently Fuller House is guilty about this too, when it's another person or teen that bullys or attacks one of the main cast members. They get it to where they are the victim or the main characters have to apologize to them. I know they had it happen on message board on Fuller House to where the producers said: "Sadly, we live in a world where a kid can bully and sell drugs and yet it's not their fault. That's why we did that." At least they backed up why they did the story, but at the same time, it would be great if a sitcom would actually address this crap. It happened on Home Improvement for years from Mark getting picked on in his first karate class to Tim being beaten up by the kid's dad and later the guy who's kid got his remote control car ran over. I hate the fact that shows will just gloss over bullying or the fact that grown adults can't discuss an issue all for the sake of a joke or to say: "Well, that's not how the world works." 

'Also the boys bullied in the game room of the bowling alley at the end Jill and Tim weren't even upset about their kids being bullied but what they did. Tim's remark that now he's free and knows what they look like? Why weren't they upset and demanding to know why there was no one in the game room keeping an eye on the kids or that none of them came to them for help. I agree it really sucks that the message seems to be who cares that you bring bullied? Get over it, its no big deal or its probably your fault. You can act like a jerk, your kid can act like a jerk and you can punch someone and no one does anything. We never see anyone pressing charges. Tim and Jill should have pressed charges against the bully parents at the karate class and/or the karate instructor should have. But no they laugh it off like its no big deal or in the one with the kid's remote control car its framed like Tim deserves it.  No one from the Tool Time crew does anything to intervene or call the cops. It wasn't Tim's fault it was the kid's fault for moving his remote control car behind him and its definitely his father's fault for beating up Tim. Nothing happens and the kid just learned or has continued to learn the lesson he can do whatever he wants with no consequences or his dad will beat up anyone no matter whether or not its their fault or his son's. Congrats Dad have fun controlling that kid when he hits his teens and starts breaking the law. And that's the other problem with it. People face no consequences for his or her behavior well not only are they not going to stop they are going to get worse until they end up in jail or picking on the wrong person. The kid in the karate class was taught his behavior by his parents as much as car remote control kid was taught by his father or learned from this moment.  Jill's reaction to Randy and Mark telling her what happened in the store she taught her sons the wrong lesson. That even if you are being bullied and about to beaten up, there's no adult around or one that will help you don't do anything to defend yourself or help your brother. Apparently she would rather have had Randy get beaten up rather then Mark intervening. That's something both boys are going to remember. Randy's not going to forget that his mother was angry that he was saved by Mark. For Mark he now has two lessons on that first his parents being hit by other parents and not pressing charges, and now when he saved his brother from getting beaten up only to get yelled at for it by his mother. I mean really is that lesson they want taken away from it? Hey, don't help anyone or if you do you'll get yelled at for it. Its better to do nothing while your brother gets beaten up although you could have stopped it. Sorry I'll still be cheering every time a bully gets what they deserved.

[readster]

5 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

 Jill's reaction to Randy and Mark telling her what happened in the store she taught her sons the wrong lesson. That even if you are being bullied and about to beaten up, there's no adult around or one that will help you don't do anything to defend yourself or help your brother. Apparently she would rather have had Randy get beaten up rather then Mark intervening. That's something both boys are going to remember. Randy's not going to forget that his mother was angry that he was saved by Mark. For Mark he now has two lessons on that first his parents being hit by other parents and not pressing charges, and now when he saved his brother from getting beaten up only to get yelled at for it by his mother. I mean really is that lesson they want taken away from it? Hey, don't help anyone or if you do you'll get yelled at for it. Its better to do nothing while your brother gets beaten up although you could have stopped it. Sorry I'll still be cheering every time a bully gets what they deserved.

Well said, I also don't get Jill wanting to save money on things when Binford would pay for: remodels, new flooring ect. I get that Jill was probably tired of having her privacy invaded when they did special Tool Times from the house. However, Tim constantly pointed out about how it covered the costs and kept their main bill low. Yet Jill was: "I'm so tired of it, even if we do need it done." Jill was painted as someone who seem to "hate it" when things were made easier for her. She was all against: sports, cars, comics, ect that Tim and the boys were into. I kind of get her thinking Mark lost his mind with the way he just went Goth one day and then magically went out of it. That makes any parent freak out when there is that massive change over night. However, if someone would be willing to give me: new gazebo, bathrooms, basement room, office ect.  and I was paying maybe less than a quarter out of pocket. I be like: "When can you start and where do you want me to help." Jill was: "Oh no, you can't do the smart thing, that's not how I was raised, you work for everything you do and then criticize everyone who helps you." Which goes into another thing, I get that Fred Patterson was in the army, however, someone who was like that, i don't think would have really any friends or family members would be more: "Oh... um.. you want to visit? I think I'm out of town that week." He was a very unpleasant person.

[andromeda331]

7 hours ago, readster said:

Well said, I also don't get Jill wanting to save money on things when Binford would pay for: remodels, new flooring ect. I get that Jill was probably tired of having her privacy invaded when they did special Tool Times from the house. However, Tim constantly pointed out about how it covered the costs and kept their main bill low. Yet Jill was: "I'm so tired of it, even if we do need it done." Jill was painted as someone who seem to "hate it" when things were made easier for her. She was all against: sports, cars, comics, ect that Tim and the boys were into. I kind of get her thinking Mark lost his mind with the way he just went Goth one day and then magically went out of it. That makes any parent freak out when there is that massive change over night. However, if someone would be willing to give me: new gazebo, bathrooms, basement room, office ect.  and I was paying maybe less than a quarter out of pocket. I be like: "When can you start and where do you want me to help." Jill was: "Oh no, you can't do the smart thing, that's not how I was raised, you work for everything you do and then criticize everyone who helps you." Which goes into another thing, I get that Fred Patterson was in the army, however, someone who was like that, i don't think would have really any friends or family members would be more: "Oh... um.. you want to visit? I think I'm out of town that week." He was a very unpleasant person.

I know right? Most people would be thrilled to have someone pay for all or most of their remodels. While they might be a little annoyed by so many people in the house and living around the remodel. Most people would be crossing of their list of things they've always wanted to do to their house. It would be like a dream  come true. A newly remodeled bathroom with a hot tub? Who wouldn't be thrilled by that? A walk in closet and organized? Again who wouldn't be thrilled with that. The ability to build a bedroom in the basement so each of your kids have their own room? A gazebo? Office? Who wouldn't be thrilled with that? But no Jill wasn't and always complained. Just like she always complained about all the stuff the boys were into. First off she married a man who's passion and interests are in sports, tools, and cars. That's what he's interested in. If you don't want to spend your married life going to games, watching games or cars then you don't marry someone who has those interests. She always kept wanting Tim to magically turn into a ballet, opera loving man who always knew everything she wanted, felt and wanted him to say. With her sons. Its really not surprising their interests also went into sports, cars, monster trucks and stuff. Why was she so annoyed? And so dismissive of it. She never really took Brad's love of soccer seriously or she wouldn't have tried to twice talk him out of playing for England and a scholarship. Brad played it for years and he clearly loved it. I get being surprised to wake up and see your son suddenly becoming Goth. But was it really that weird? Goth was getting pretty popular then. Mark was right when he pointed out that she didn't like his interest in Goth, his friends or anything. That's kind of crappy as a parent to make your kid feel you hate everything that he likes. She never really gets on board with what her husband and kids like which is crappy. You don't have to love everything your spouse loves but to dismiss everything he or she loves because its something you don't like? That's terrible.      

[readster]

3 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I know right? Most people would be thrilled to have someone pay for all or most of their remodels. While they might be a little annoyed by so many people in the house and living around the remodel. Most people would be crossing of their list of things they've always wanted to do to their house. It would be like a dream  come true. A newly remodeled bathroom with a hot tub? Who wouldn't be thrilled by that? A walk in closet and organized? Again who wouldn't be thrilled with that. The ability to build a bedroom in the basement so each of your kids have their own room? A gazebo? Office? Who wouldn't be thrilled with that? But no Jill wasn't and always complained. Just like she always complained about all the stuff the boys were into. First off she married a man who's passion and interests are in sports, tools, and cars. That's what he's interested in. If you don't want to spend your married life going to games, watching games or cars then you don't marry someone who has those interests. She always kept wanting Tim to magically turn into a ballet, opera loving man who always knew everything she wanted, felt and wanted him to say. With her sons. Its really not surprising their interests also went into sports, cars, monster trucks and stuff. Why was she so annoyed? And so dismissive of it. She never really took Brad's love of soccer seriously or she wouldn't have tried to twice talk him out of playing for England and a scholarship. Brad played it for years and he clearly loved it. I get being surprised to wake up and see your son suddenly becoming Goth. But was it really that weird? Goth was getting pretty popular then. Mark was right when he pointed out that she didn't like his interest in Goth, his friends or anything. That's kind of crappy as a parent to make your kid feel you hate everything that he likes. She never really gets on board with what her husband and kids like which is crappy. You don't have to love everything your spouse loves but to dismiss everything he or she loves because its something you don't like? That's terrible.      

True and it even goes to Randy when he started turning to journalism. She was happy that Randy was writing, but then she could have cared less. It wasn't like with Brad, talking him out of things he enjoyed or just not trying to really understand why Mark was into Goth. I mean, really, neither Tim or Jill didn't go: "Mark seriously, what is with the Goth." "We want to understand and you just stamp your feet and say we don't get you, why don't you make us understand WHY you want to do this." No, Jill had to try and FIGURE OUT or come up with conclusions based on what she THOUGHT was the reason. She never really tried to understand. At least with Tim's Mid Life crisis, we got why he felt stuck. However, as I mentioned all the tone shift for season 7 would have made sense from Tim to even Randy's thoughts on religion if they would have shown that it was Fred's death that most likely kicked everything off. However, it was all more of the writers trying to do something "bold" and they realized half way through, they didn't know what to do with it. So, they just all ditched it when season 8 started. 

  Also, watching the few episodes after JTT left the show, it was such a 180 of tone. I get that everyone was trying to fill in the void without Randy and pushed Jeff and Marty and the twins more into the house. However, it was like all of a sudden, Randy left and there HAD to be these stories. I think if they would have focused more on Mark's new ways of loving of movie making. More on maybe Heidi's background and see more of Trudy's life. It would have worked, because when Marty shows up, while the story line was different, I felt like once again Marty just didn't know how to be an adult. There is having your life go to hell and then there is Marty in this haze again and not getting what he NEEDED to do get his life going again. 

[andromeda331]

13 hours ago, readster said:

True and it even goes to Randy when he started turning to journalism. She was happy that Randy was writing, but then she could have cared less. It wasn't like with Brad, talking him out of things he enjoyed or just not trying to really understand why Mark was into Goth. I mean, really, neither Tim or Jill didn't go: "Mark seriously, what is with the Goth." "We want to understand and you just stamp your feet and say we don't get you, why don't you make us understand WHY you want to do this." No, Jill had to try and FIGURE OUT or come up with conclusions based on what she THOUGHT was the reason. She never really tried to understand. At least with Tim's Mid Life crisis, we got why he felt stuck. However, as I mentioned all the tone shift for season 7 would have made sense from Tim to even Randy's thoughts on religion if they would have shown that it was Fred's death that most likely kicked everything off. However, it was all more of the writers trying to do something "bold" and they realized half way through, they didn't know what to do with it. So, they just all ditched it when season 8 started. 

Jill really doesn't get as involved in Randy's writing as you would think given all her opinions and how strongly she feels about things. Also, because she did similar stuff with the magazine. You'd think she'd be happy and interested in Randy's writing and his new found need to question everything. But she really doesn't. Most of the time she doesn't really say anything about his writing. Randy ends up learning from Tim over the Binford business that his approach doesn't work because it just sounds like he wants to destroy something. He learns from Brad well Wilson mostly not to get so jealous of Brad's successful articles and even goes back to re-read Brad's article and admits it was good. When it comes to Mark yes Jill tries to figure out what's wrong without asking Mark. Without actually talking to him and listening. Then ends up deciding Mark wants to kill them. I mean really? That's what she comes up with? Its only then she (and Tim) talk to Mark. Why doesn't she try to talk to him and keep trying to talk? Or to listen? Instead of jumping to her crazy theories actually research Goth?   

They really missed something by not tying all the changes back to Fred's death. It would have explained everything regarding Tim's midlife crisis, Mark's turn to Goth, and Randy's change of feelings regarding religion and the sudden need to question everything. It would have made so much sense. Of course Randy's questioning everything after all he's been through with his own medical scare and his grandfather dying suddenly when he rants about doctors he was scared for a day that he might have cancer meanwhile no one was able to see Fred's heart attack coming. Mark's becoming Goth its not that out of the blue for someone especially a teen to become involved in Goth following a death. Or Tim suddenly wanting to buy a lodge or something. All three could easily be their way of trying to understand the death and come to terms with it. For Tim his in his forties and knows how old his father-in-law was and realizing he's only about thirty or forty years younger then his father-in-law. That's not a lot of time especially since Fred had only retired a couple years before his death. Its easy to see Tim realizing they might have time to do all the things he and Jill planned when they retire. Its disappointing that they don't tie it back to his death.  

 

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Also, watching the few episodes after JTT left the show, it was such a 180 of tone. I get that everyone was trying to fill in the void without Randy and pushed Jeff and Marty and the twins more into the house. However, it was like all of a sudden, Randy left and there HAD to be these stories. I think if they would have focused more on Mark's new ways of loving of movie making. More on maybe Heidi's background and see more of Trudy's life. It would have worked, because when Marty shows up, while the story line was different, I felt like once again Marty just didn't know how to be an adult. There is having your life go to hell and then there is Marty in this haze again and not getting what he NEEDED to do get his life going again. 

I agree. I get why Jeff, Marty and the twins were brought on more on season eight. They needed to fill JTT's void. While it wasn't a bad idea. Seeing Marty going through a divorce, and how hard that can be and how it effected his kids. That was good stuff. The problem was they kept writing him as someone who still wouldn't man up and find a real job. He was still going from crappy job to crappy job and couldn't even bother to try to sale anything at the hardware store. If we instead saw him dropping all that crap and really trying put his life back together. That might have been interesting to watch. But instead we got someone who even after his wife threw him out of his house and he had to live with his brother, with his daughters staying with them whenever he had custody. And still wouldn't get his act together. I was interested when Jeff and Carrie hit it off. It was so unexpected and yet they seemed to have chemistry. It was interesting given Jeff's two divorces and living with his mother and Carrie who was always traveling. But we never saw them together again after that episode. Jeff referred to her but it would have been nice to watch their relationship develop. And Jeff too to finally grow up or figure out why he was such a screw up and move on. It might have made him deciding to buy into the hardware store as a partner more moving if we got to see him get there. 

[readster]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

Jill really doesn't get as involved in Randy's writing as you would think given all her opinions and how strongly she feels about things. Also, because she did similar stuff with the magazine. You'd think she'd be happy and interested in Randy's writing and his new found need to question everything. But she really doesn't. Most of the time she doesn't really say anything about his writing. Randy ends up learning from Tim over the Binford business that his approach doesn't work because it just sounds like he wants to destroy something. He learns from Brad well Wilson mostly not to get so jealous of Brad's successful articles and even goes back to re-read Brad's article and admits it was good. When it comes to Mark yes Jill tries to figure out what's wrong without asking Mark. Without actually talking to him and listening. Then ends up deciding Mark wants to kill them. I mean really? That's what she comes up with? Its only then she (and Tim) talk to Mark. Why doesn't she try to talk to him and keep trying to talk? Or to listen? Instead of jumping to her crazy theories actually research Goth?   

They really missed something by not tying all the changes back to Fred's death. It would have explained everything regarding Tim's midlife crisis, Mark's turn to Goth, and Randy's change of feelings regarding religion and the sudden need to question everything. It would have made so much sense. Of course Randy's questioning everything after all he's been through with his own medical scare and his grandfather dying suddenly when he rants about doctors he was scared for a day that he might have cancer meanwhile no one was able to see Fred's heart attack coming. Mark's becoming Goth its not that out of the blue for someone especially a teen to become involved in Goth following a death. Or Tim suddenly wanting to buy a lodge or something. All three could easily be their way of trying to understand the death and come to terms with it. For Tim his in his forties and knows how old his father-in-law was and realizing he's only about thirty or forty years younger then his father-in-law. That's not a lot of time especially since Fred had only retired a couple years before his death. Its easy to see Tim realizing they might have time to do all the things he and Jill planned when they retire. Its disappointing that they don't tie it back to his death.  

 

I agree. I get why Jeff, Marty and the twins were brought on more on season eight. They needed to fill JTT's void. While it wasn't a bad idea. Seeing Marty going through a divorce, and how hard that can be and how it effected his kids. That was good stuff. The problem was they kept writing him as someone who still wouldn't man up and find a real job. He was still going from crappy job to crappy job and couldn't even bother to try to sale anything at the hardware store. If we instead saw him dropping all that crap and really trying put his life back together. That might have been interesting to watch. But instead we got someone who even after his wife threw him out of his house and he had to live with his brother, with his daughters staying with them whenever he had custody. And still wouldn't get his act together. I was interested when Jeff and Carrie hit it off. It was so unexpected and yet they seemed to have chemistry. It was interesting given Jeff's two divorces and living with his mother and Carrie who was always traveling. But we never saw them together again after that episode. Jeff referred to her but it would have been nice to watch their relationship develop. And Jeff too to finally grow up or figure out why he was such a screw up and move on. It might have made him deciding to buy into the hardware store as a partner more moving if we got to see him get there. 

 

That's why I was so shocked about Jill not getting more involved with Randy, because she use to do it in high school herself and even wrote and worked for a magazine. Yet, it was Tim, Randy and even Mark who talked to him about everything, even the dying woman in the retirement home. Jill... nah, why should she when it made the most sense. Another thing too was when Tim and Jill bought the house down the street and rented it to Al. Why was Jill not making a fuss about buying an ENTIRE two story house? She came down on Tim and so did Wilson on Tim being so overboard and recently Randy's return episode aired and Tim was just being awful to Al when he was living there. Yet, Jill never went: "This is like when you wanted to buy the cabin last year? Can we find a tennant and will it cover the costs? Do you have time for fixing things... wait, YOU shouldn't fix anything, we aren't buying it." Let, apparently Jill had no problem there. Even more, that would have been argument of not buying the hardware store 4 episodes later. Tim and Jill could have just said: "We tied more money in Al's house, so we can't buy it." But no, apparently forgot about it and then one episode later they are visiting Al's house and Al giving a comment about how much money he is saving in the house instead of his old apartment.

  Going back to Marty, how about when he got jealous and upset with Tim and Jill  being "better" at parenting the girls than him. I mean, of course they are, their boys are almost out of the house, the girls love them and the girls know it's their house and their rules and they are the "fun" aunt and uncle just like they comment in the Christmas episode that they love Jeff too. Yet, Marty gets all upset that he wants to just up and leave with the girls with NO place and NO money saved up. If anything that should have been a wake up call on his job status. He even said how Nancy said he would NEVER get himself together. I get that there is a lot of anger in a divorce (seen it first hand). However, you would think as a result, that Nancy would have been going to the courts more about Marty not being able to provide for the girls and should have more limited custody. Because those words paint someone who is about 2 steps from sleeping on the street. If anything, I could have seen Lucille and Jeff helping Marty out if Tim didn't. I also love how Tim pretty much told both Jill, Lucille and Marty, he was tired of always trying to keep everyone happy and people kept telling him it wasn't enough. I was cheering Tim there, because seriously, he did so much for everyone, yet Marty never got it in his head to keep trying and Jill acted like Tim had no sense of helping others when all he did was help. Hell, Marty could have moved in with Wilson since Willow was gone from the show by then.

[andromeda331]

20 minutes ago, readster said:

That's why I was so shocked about Jill not getting more involved with Randy, because she use to do it in high school herself and even wrote and worked for a magazine. Yet, it was Tim, Randy and even Mark who talked to him about everything, even the dying woman in the retirement home. Jill... nah, why should she when it made the most sense. Another thing too was when Tim and Jill bought the house down the street and rented it to Al. Why was Jill not making a fuss about buying an ENTIRE two story house? She came down on Tim and so did Wilson on Tim being so overboard and recently Randy's return episode aired and Tim was just being awful to Al when he was living there. Yet, Jill never went: "This is like when you wanted to buy the cabin last year? Can we find a tennant and will it cover the costs? Do you have time for fixing things... wait, YOU shouldn't fix anything, we aren't buying it." Let, apparently Jill had no problem there. Even more, that would have been argument of not buying the hardware store 4 episodes later. Tim and Jill could have just said: "We tied more money in Al's house, so we can't buy it." But no, apparently forgot about it and then one episode later they are visiting Al's house and Al giving a comment about how much money he is saving in the house instead of his old apartment.

Me too. You'd think she'd be all over Randy being a journalist and getting involved with it or trying too. She wrote for a magazine and really loved to talk about what she's passionate about. But she doesn't really do anything. She doesn't want to talk with Randy about healthy care or the environment? She doesn't give him any tips or help him writing his articles? Research or anything. She really does make the most sense. You'd think she'd be excited to finally have one kid developing an interest in something she was interested it. But nope. Nothing.

Where did they get the money to even by a two story home? Given how close it was to the Taylor home I doubt it was that cheap. Why didn't she get all upset and refused to do that? Its a lot of money. Plus its not always easy to have tenants, you get a bad one its really hard to evict them and can take a long time to legally get them out. By then they could trash the place. Plus dealing with any and all repairs. Does Tim really have the time to go over and fix all of them. Buying into the Hardware store makes more sense it's already an establish business with Harry working it. They wouldn't have had to do much plus with all Tim's contacts they could have easily improved business. Your right they could have easily pointed that out as a reason not to buy the hardware store. 

 

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Going back to Marty, how about when he got jealous and upset with Tim and Jill  being "better" at parenting the girls than him. I mean, of course they are, their boys are almost out of the house, the girls love them and the girls know it's their house and their rules and they are the "fun" aunt and uncle just like they comment in the Christmas episode that they love Jeff too. Yet, Marty gets all upset that he wants to just up and leave with the girls with NO place and NO money saved up. If anything that should have been a wake up call on his job status. He even said how Nancy said he would NEVER get himself together. I get that there is a lot of anger in a divorce (seen it first hand). However, you would think as a result, that Nancy would have been going to the courts more about Marty not being able to provide for the girls and should have more limited custody. Because those words paint someone who is about 2 steps from sleeping on the street. If anything, I could have seen Lucille and Jeff helping Marty out if Tim didn't. I also love how Tim pretty much told both Jill, Lucille and Marty, he was tired of always trying to keep everyone happy and people kept telling him it wasn't enough. I was cheering Tim there, because seriously, he did so much for everyone, yet Marty never got it in his head to keep trying and Jill acted like Tim had no sense of helping others when all he did was help. Hell, Marty could have moved in with Wilson since Willow was gone from the show by then.

I really wish Tim had done that. Had told his family just that and Marty. He has helped out Marty so many times. He helped out Marty when he was thinking of bailing on his wife and kids by eventually talking him out of it. He gave Marty a job to help with the new Tool Time set that Marty wasn't even grateful he walked in and already started questioning everything and didn't stop. Tim then gets him another job at K&B Construction. He doesn't keep that job. He takes Marty in when he has no where to go after his divorce and his daughters. Marty's gratitude there lasted real long didn't it? He gets mad that Tim and Jill are better parents to his girls then he is. Which yes of course they are as you pointed out they've been raising three boys. They've experienced that age three times. It is usually easier with uncle and aunt then it is with your own parents. Their the fun uncle and aunt. He couldn't just be happy to have a place to stay and that his girls were doing well despite dealing with their parents divorce. Nope he decides he's going to leave even though he has no where to go because he's butt hurt. Also, we find out a couple episodes later that Nancy did the disciplining of their daughters. Its his own fault that Tim and Jill are better parents then he is because he hasn't really been doing any of the parenting. Nancy has been taking on the bulk of work all the hard stuff that Marty wasn't doing. And that's really where it gets frustrating and you really wish Tim or someone would go off on Marty or get angry with him. His situation is entirely his own fault. He was laid off from charter accounting and that really sucks. But he doesn't go get another job in his field. Instead he bounces from job to job losing the mostly likely completely due to his attitude. There's no reason why he couldn't have really made it go a K&B Construction or found a job in a store, grocery store whatever for time being or somewhere else. Nancy throws him out. You really wonder how she stayed with him for so long. 

[readster]

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Where did they get the money to even by a two story home? Given how close it was to the Taylor home I doubt it was that cheap. Why didn't she get all upset and refused to do that? Its a lot of money. Plus its not always easy to have tenants, you get a bad one its really hard to evict them and can take a long time to legally get them out. By then they could trash the place. Plus dealing with any and all repairs. Does Tim really have the time to go over and fix all of them. Buying into the Hardware store makes more sense it's already an establish business with Harry working it. They wouldn't have had to do much plus with all Tim's contacts they could have easily improved business. Your right they could have easily pointed that out as a reason not to buy the hardware store. 

Yeah, I even remember when the episode first aired that Tim, Al and Heidi were getting it all set up. I was like: "When and how did he do that?" Of course, it was an excuse to get rid of Al's old apartment set and put in a new place and they were working on getting Al and Trudy together, so made sense they were getting a house. However, a 2 story house in the late 90s would be running in the $225K as the Market was doing so well then. So, I"m going to think that Al was paying almost the same as his apartment or a little more. So, it was working on a major money, plus what did Tim just give it to Al and Trudy or did Trudy buy Tim out when they moved?