S02.E06: Sicut Cervus

[maczero]

11 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

 

 

11 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

 

 

3 hours ago, rab01 said:

I agree with you that Chris hasn't become a psycho overnight. Credit where it's due -- FtWD has been pretty consistent about character beats (maybe not plot or world building but the characters are more true to themselves than recent episodes of TWD). Because of that, I trace Chris' hesitation in this episode to his "letting" the pirates onto the boat ...... Can you believe that they put a teenager on guard duty with a gun and didn't discuss with him what he's supposed to do if strangers try to come on board? Really, is he expected to shoot a pregnant lady on his own judgment? I bet you a million dollars that Travis did NOT have a talk with him beforehand about using lethal force if a dinghy ignores his warnings and pulls up alongside. It's deeply unfair to put a teenager (or anyone) on guard duty and not talk to him first about what he should do if trouble happens.

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who feels the adults should take full responsibility for the pirate situation.  First, Chris has proven that he can't follow simple directions prior to this.  On the luggage scavenging trip, he wanders off after being told repeatedly to stay with the group.  Putting him on guard duty and not instructing him on how to handle strangers was a disaster waiting to happen.  Funny thing is Daniel puts him on guard duty again and surprise Chris shoots their leverage to get Travis & Alicia back.

1 hour ago, BetyBee said:

Why does anyone feed Walkers anyway?  It's not like it prevents them from eating humans.  They're never satisfied.

It does keep them occupied for a bit.  Also, it's likely that zombie caretakers still see them as "alive" thus needing food to survive.

[Raven1707]

The Sunday Cable Ratings are in for "Sicut Cervus":

The night's No. 2 show, "Fear the Walking Dead," was down a tenth to 1.9, marking the first time it's fallen below a 2.0. [4.486 million viewers]

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2016/05/17/sunday-cable-ratings-game-of-thrones-rises-fear-the-walking-dead-falls/

And here are the Live +SD ratings for Season 2 so far:

04-10-16 "Monster" 6.674 million
04-17-16 "We All Fall Down" 5.581 million
04-24-16 "Ouroboros" 4.726 million
05-01-16 "Blood on the Streets" 4.803 million
05-08-16 "Captive" 4.414 million
05-15-16 "Sicut Cervus" 4.486 million

[Big Whistle]

The medallion has the face of the owl; the same face is carved into the tree by the outside altar. Is it a symbol of a cult or devil worship.

[BasilSeal]

1 hour ago, Anela said:

I didn't see them kill children - except for the one that I was spoiled on, by the actress herself (on periscope), since I watched the following day. 

I was talking about the whole choir of children poisoned at the church, and subsequently bludgeoned by the grizwolds and torture guy when they re appear as walkers. In both these shows loads of people have died really horrible deaths, but it's more affecting when one dog is killed. Why is this, do you think? I mean however much one loves animals, human life is surely more important?

[Haleth]

Is anyone up on their Latin?  I took it in HS when it was practically still a "living language."  ? Does anyone know what the epi title means?

[BasilSeal]

2 minutes ago, Haleth said:

anyone know what the epi title means?

it means like a deer, literally, it's the opening line of psalm 42, it's about the longing for god felt by the Jews in exile in Babylon after being cast out of Jerusalem,

[lezlers]

On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 11:29 PM, MattDuffysCat said:

I would think though that as a normal person, if you see anyone right in front of you fighting for their life, your first instinct would be to help them out of compassion for another human being.

Yeah, like Alicia said, he was WATCHING.  He didn't look frozen.  The look on his face was more like....interest.  He initially moved towards her to help, then stopped and watched.  It looked very intentional to me, as was his threat to Alicia.  I was yelling for a zombie to eat him already before my husband reminded me how much I hate Madison.  Maybe they could just have a fight to the death to get rid of two exceptionally annoying characters.

[xaxat]

5 hours ago, BetyBee said:

Why does anyone feed Walkers anyway?  It's not like it prevents them from eating humans.  They're never satisfied.

To quote the sheriff from the original (and still best) zombie movie, Night of the Living Dead. "Yeah, they're dead. They're all messed up."

[FishyJoe]

When they were talking about this hideaway, I was expecting some type of underground bunker in the side of a hill.

Not some rich dude's mansion, where you can hop over the fence without so much as barb wire. 

[brini]

3 hours ago, Big Whistle said:

The medallion has the face of the owl; the same face is carved into the tree by the outside altar. Is it a symbol of a cult or devil worship.

Yep.

owls, coins, medallions ... oh my.   Santa Muerte is a form of cult /worship in parts of Mexico.  Daniel would be aware of it as well b/c of his Central American roots.  Likely why he curtly answered "No" when Celia asked him if he was praying as he stood in front of that owl alter and also why he recognized the owl coin and quickly tossed it overboard.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Muerte

Edited May 18, 2016 by brini
bad spelling & add link

[raven]

8 hours ago, rab01 said:

I've never actually seen her as mother figure to Chris. When she comforted him after killing the hostage, it seemed to me like damage control. She couldn't really do anything better with the situation so she hugged him.

I haven't either.  Chris had a mother so (before zombies) Madison didn't have to "mother" him.  Her kids didn't have a father, so while Travis wouldn't quite be that guy, he would feel more invested in filling that role, especially since he lived there.  Chris always had that distance from Madison.

I thought their argument was pretty true to life and could be applied to any divorced parents with kids situation, not just possible murder/indifference.  Did Chris tell anyone he killed a living person in the plane wreckage?  Yes the guy was suffering and begged him to do it but that's still a burden to carry. 

I've been catching up and suppose I'll be the cheese standing alone; I like the show.  My biggest issues are that Strand didn't interest me until Thomas died; even though I didn't see enough of their relationship to be invested, people who don't care about other people aren't very interesting to me.  They're predictable and I thought the actor was giving a pretty one-note performance.  He got to show a lot more this episode, being frantic about Thomas, then caring for him, etc.  I was surprised to see that he agreed with Celia's ideas, at least in the past.  I think it's clear he doesn't now, so without his purpose of getting to Thomas, I'm curious if he will have a purpose now, with no one to care for.

My other issue is the same as with the main show - people are really terrible, kill everyone you see, living people are the real danger, blah blah blah.  In order to live in "THIS WORLD" you have to be cold, unfeeling, merciless because when infrastructure collapses and dead people are wandering around, well that's how you have to be!  Because even though it won't build civilization back up again, who cares!  Only warlords or crazy people are left!  Or something.

Anyway, I like Nick, I kind of like Madison, I like that Travis is sort of weak and confused, if Daniel goes nutty he will be less interesting. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

It does keep them occupied for a bit.  Also, it's likely that zombie caretakers still see them as "alive" thus needing food to survive.

That was how I took it.  They view them as still human, so they need "food."  

[Raven1707]

1 hour ago, raven said:

I've been catching up and suppose I'll be the cheese standing alone; I like the show.

Hey, I'll stand with you...I like the show, too.

[millennium]

I'm sorry, but I just don't get the fuss about Kim Dickens.   I remember her from Deadwood.  Okay.  Fine.  Then she was the whore with the heart of gold on Sons of Anarchy.   Whatever. 

Now she's just supposed to be this "fierce" badass post-apocalyptic Linda Hamilton type but really, all that's coming across is a one-note, washed up, kinda schlumpy character actress who must have a hell of an agent.   This dog of a show certainly isn't doing her any favors but she seems content to kick back and enjoy the scenery rather than try to rise above the bad writing with good acting.

Speaking of bad acting, is that Chris kid somebody's son or nephew?  He's the worst.

What a terrible, empty episode.   It boggles the mind that this show ever made it to air.

[BasilSeal]

6 hours ago, raven said:

I've been catching up and suppose I'll be the cheese standing alone; I like the show.

 

5 hours ago, Raven1707 said:

Hey, I'll stand with you...I like the show, too.

Count me in too. It's not the greatest thing on television but it's perfectly watchable. there are loads of hyperbolic 'this is the worst thing ever' comments on here from people who have apparently had their memories of the first two series of TWD wiped clean. Here's a little reminder.

https://mostlyfilm.com/2012/04/11/planks-vs-zombies/

[ghoulina]

11 hours ago, raven said:

I haven't either.  Chris had a mother so (before zombies) Madison didn't have to "mother" him.  Her kids didn't have a father, so while Travis wouldn't quite be that guy, he would feel more invested in filling that role, especially since he lived there.  Chris always had that distance from Madison.

This is a really good point. Adding to that - Travis, Alicia, and Nick all live together full time. Christ just visits, I'm guessing, on weekends. So he wouldn't have the opportunity to get as close to Madison, even if the other kids DID have a dad. 

[riverheightsnancy]

Hey guys,   Be sure to catch every detail and moment of FTWD this Sunday when they do a mid-season finale MARATHON!!!!!  Don't miss a single riveting moment and catch up on all those details you may have missed while you did other things!    ;)  (reality is, I probably will have it on because there will be nothing better, but it won't hold my undivided attention and I will do work the whole time). 

[Jel]

On 5/16/2016 at 2:57 PM, oakville said:

I find it frustrating that you have to watch Talking Dead or find interviews with the show runners to figure out what is happening on the show. I thought Celia was Abigail's house keeper, not his adopted mother!.

I could be wrong here, but I took "adoptive"mother to be like "other" or "ersatz" mother. I definitely think she's the housekeeper, and/or maybe his former childhood nanny.  I also think she's nutty and wants to bring on what she thinks is the next state of being for her people. Her comments like the dead have always been with us, only now we can see them, etc.  I think she's only staying around to Jim Jones everyone.

But it sure is confusing and unclear.

[RustbeltWriter]

6 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

 

Count me in too. It's not the greatest thing on television but it's perfectly watchable. there are loads of hyperbolic 'this is the worst thing ever' comments on here from people who have apparently had their memories of the first two series of TWD wiped clean. Here's a little reminder.

https://mostlyfilm.com/2012/04/11/planks-vs-zombies/

I like the show, well, I like the premise of the show. The execution leaves a lot to be desired but it's still interesting and worth watching. There's enough of a good idea left that if some show runner were to come aboard with good ideas the show could be great. I wouldn't snark if I didn't think the show couldn't be better.

Edited May 18, 2016 by RustbeltWriter

[Madding crowd]

Once again I was confused by the first few minutes of the show, and for a second I wondered if I was watching the new show The Preacher. What kind of poison makes you bleed from the eyes and then die? I guess I could buy Celia believing in the dead coming around, but if she thinks they are good why are they locked in the cage? Why didn't she kill herself? She didn't even seem to care about her son being dead, as long as he wasn't shot in the head so he can be locked in the cage?

I liked the scenes between Strand and Abigail and it actually made me sad. Glad he decided not to kill himself, but get rid of those wafers!! I guess I can understand Chris becoming kind of unhinged. I think a lot of people would react in really crazy ways, especially in the beginning of the ZA.

Sorry, but I felt more for the kids being killed than the dog. Of course I don't want to see animals harmed (and off topic but I get sick when people post pictures of animal abuse on social media). I still like the show enough to keep watching, but agree it pales in comparison to The Walking Dead,,

[ghoulina]

1 hour ago, riverheightsnancy said:

 

Hey guys,   Be sure to catch every detail and moment of FTWD this Sunday when they do a mid-season finale MARATHON!!!!!  Don't miss a single riveting moment and catch up on all those details you may have missed while you did other things!    ;)  (reality is, I probably will have it on because there will be nothing better, but it won't hold my undivided attention and I will do work the whole time). 

 

I feel like I could watch each episode 10 times and still be confused. 

[riverheightsnancy]

1 hour ago, RustbeltWriter said:

I like the show, well, I like the premise of the show. The execution leaves a lot to be desired but it's still interesting and worth watching. There's enough of a good idea left that if some show runner were to come aboard with good ideas the show could be great. I wouldn't snark if I didn't think the show couldn't be better.

Without getting too far off of FTWD, I actually really liked season 1 & 2 of the mothership. Especially the CDC story line which many hated. The thing that was confusing (in the original) was how they changed the walkers. That confuses me on this show, because they seem more human like and more able to do things, yet they are not as scary or as degraded (in terms of their bodies decaying). I imagine that this is solely due to financial constraints on the budget. I imagine the makeup budget for TWD is bigger than almost anything out there right now. Instead of the entire boat set-up they spent on (I watched the video-it was extensive), how about better make-up and script? 

[tiredofwork]

I don't think any one of these character's are on that sphere where the character cannot be killed.  At this point, they could really start all over with an entire group/cast and it may make it better, of course they would need new writers and a new show runner. 

It could be the kind of series where since this is the beginning of the ZA, we've seen the perspective from this boring ass family/group. Now we can just move on to an entirely NEW cast.  

I would love to see the upcoming exploits of Alex and how she navigates through all this. 

I just think they casted absolutely wrong for the primaries on this show.  However, I think they have a good potential if they refocused away from that clan and onto Alex and maybe Strand.

Edited May 18, 2016 by tiredofwork

[diebartdie]

1 hour ago, riverheightsnancy said:

Without getting too far off of FTWD, I actually really liked season 1 & 2 of the mothership. Especially the CDC story line which many hated. The thing that was confusing (in the original) was how they changed the walkers. That confuses me on this show, because they seem more human like and more able to do things, yet they are not as scary or as degraded (in terms of their bodies decaying). I imagine that this is solely due to financial constraints on the budget. I imagine the makeup budget for TWD is bigger than almost anything out there right now. Instead of the entire boat set-up they spent on (I watched the video-it was extensive), how about better make-up and script? 

The zombies on FtWD are much fresher than the majority of zombies on TWD. For reference, look at (spoiler tagging in case anyone here hasnt watched TWD)

Spoiler

zombie Shane

compared to pretty much all the zombies seen so far on FtWD. The rate of decay of these undead human bodies is not comparable to the rate of decay of a deaddead human body. FtWD is roughly 2-3 months into the ZA, a deaddead human body left outside would be pretty rotted out and devoured by insects, scavenger animals, whatever. An undead human body shambling around outside for that length of time looks a LOT fresher, they are not subject to much damage via insects or scavengers, perhaps they are toxic to those critters and perhaps whatever slows the internal decay also wards off damage from the elements? Whatever it is, it takes many months or even a couple years (or many weeks down in a well) to look as decayed, damaged and gross as the zeds in TWD. I think FtWD is doing a great job with the walkers.

[Anela]

I was doing something, and missed that they were poisoned - until someone mentioned something here, about Strand not committing suicide. I looked up and saw blood coming out of someone's eyes, and thought, "Is that how it all started?" 

I feel an equal amount of sympathy for kids, and animals. None of them deserved their fates. 

[feverfew]

Normally I just lurk, but this episode made me spitting mad! Up until this episode I've been indifferent to Maddie, but her hypocrisy in regards to her children versus Travis' child ...I...no words. Her junkie-son stole morphine from an old, dying woman and did gods-know-what before the apocalypse. Her daughter got them caught by pirates. What about giving a boy who has suffered more than any of her children the benefit of the doubt? Or if he really is cracking, what about helping him? She must have been the gorram worst guidance counselor in the world!

I would find this storyline interesting if a) I didn't feel as though TPTB meant for us to applaud mother bear-Maddie and b) I had any faith in the writers in regards to depictions of mental illnesses. What happened on the mothership with Lizzie was both poignant and tragic, but this is supposedly so early in the apocalypse, people should still act like people. At least our "heroes". What did Maddie expect Travis to do? Banish his only son so her precious daughter can sleep better at night? Take Chris out to look at the flowers? Maddie, you suck. I hope you die a grisly death.

Please, Travis, leave your shrew for a wife and her children by the wayside and go have zombie-adventures with Strand, Daniel, and mini-Daniel (Chris). You might take Nick and Ofelia, but it is by no means necessary.

Edited May 19, 2016 by feverfew
Spelling is important, even if you're mad as hell

[Iguessnot]

A few more things that bothered me on rewatch. As someone mentioned before, Daniel discovered Cecilia's poisoned wafers, yet he lets her walk away with them on a serving tray with nary a word. Victor and Daniel confirmed to Cecilia that Luis was not shot in the head. Yeah, we saw Daniel back off while the dude was still alive, but are we to believe they just left a walker roaming on the boat?

Okay, Cecilia is Luis' mother. However she also mentions comforting Abigail when he was young with her songs. I'm sorry but unless she was a nanny at 3, she looks the same age as Thomas Abigail.

[BasilSeal]

10 minutes ago, Iguessnot said:

Okay, Cecilia is Luis' mother. However she also mentions comforting Abigail when he was young with her songs. I'm sorry but unless she was a nanny at 3, she looks the same age as Thomas Abigail.

I thought that as well, Dougray Scott is 50, one would assume that as he obviously has a scottish accent then his character hasn't lived all his life in Mexico, say he went there when he was 10, and Celia was employed as a nanny, he may only have been say 17 or 18 herself. It's feasible that celia could be late 50's, though Marlene Forte probably isn't any older than Dougray Scott in real life,(being a lady here wiki page doesn't give her age), but that's holywood sexism for you, she's over forty so has to play old ladies.

[Jordan27]

I defended this show in S1.  I thought it needed a chance to find its way and it was the beginning of the ZA, so people can't be expected to understand.  But, this season is even worse.  Way below the quality of WD.  In fact, not even in the same universe. 

My sister wondered if this had been the first show, would it even have made it?   I have my doubts.

Strand and Salazar are the only characters that are even interesting.  The others are different levels of uneven, boring, frustrating or downright stupid.

This ep. was really bad and now I have doubts whether this show will even be above average.

[Gulftastic]

As soon as he put Chris on guard duty, I rolled my eyes and thought 'Well, that's where this week's bit of super-idiocy is going to happen'.

 

Sure enough....

[txhorns79]

Quote

Up until this episode I've been indifferent to Maddie, but her hypocrisy in regards to her children versus Travis' child ...I...no words. Her junkie-son stole morphine from an old, dying woman and did gods-know-what before the apocalypse. Her daughter got them caught by pirates. What about giving a boy who has suffered more than any of her children the benefit of the doubt? Or if he really is cracking, what about helping him? She must have been the gorram worst guidance counselor in the world!

I just think she doesn't have a relationship with Chris like Travis has with her kids.  Also, Chris has purposefully acted in a way that directly threatened she and her daughter, as opposed to Nick and Alicia, whose actions in the past, while stupid and careless, weren't being done to purposefully harm other people.  I'm not saying Madison couldn't be more understanding to Chris, but I do think once you wake up to find someone standing next to your bed clutching a knife, you aren't going to want that person around.      

[BasilSeal]

17 hours ago, Jordan27 said:

But, this season is even worse.  Way below the quality of WD.

I disagree, if you compare what we've seen so far of fTWD and compare with the first two seasons of TWD, the writing plotting and characterisation are way ahead. As for the people who find Madison annoying and unsympathetic, i have two words for you, Lori Grimes.

In recent series TWD as upped its game a fair bit with the writing, but it's still not perfect in terms of plot and character development. If you look at the link i posted up thread to the Mostly Film review, i think that is a fair critique of the faults of the early WD, and it also makes the point that what makes TWD watchable despite its faults is that it does the set piece zombie stuff very well.

Perhaps where fTWD is falling down is that it focuses more on the character development and the moral implications of survival at the expense of others, rather than simply being primarily an against the odds hand to hand walker whacking session with a predictably high attrition rate.

[feverfew]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I just think she doesn't have a relationship with Chris like Travis has with her kids.  Also, Chris has purposefully acted in a way that directly threatened she and her daughter, as opposed to Nick and Alicia, whose actions in the past, while stupid and careless, weren't being done to purposefully harm other people.  I'm not saying Madison couldn't be more understanding to Chris, but I do think once you wake up to find someone standing next to your bed clutching a knife, you aren't going to want that person around.      

Obviously Maddie is allowed to be scared for the safety of her and her daughter when she woke up and found Chris standing over them with a knife. BUT. Her argument with Travis was earlier that evening, when all she had to go on was Alicia saying that a) Chris willfully refused to help Maddie when she was attacked and b) that he afterwards threatened her life if she didn't keep quit. Both instances can be explained; in both instances a normal, rational human being would not jump straight to the conclusion that Chris was out to kill them. What I've seen of Chris is so far is a traumatized young boy, who has lost more than anyone on the boat; who has been forced to mercy kill a man and has no one to talk to about it. A boy who froze in a critical situation and afterwards did not explain himself well.

But maybe you're right; maybe he's a Lizzie in the making. What should she do? Take him outside and shoot him? Make Travis do it? Or be an empathic person and talk rationally with her husband?

Also, I would say stealing morphine from a dying person is purposefully harming that person. Luckily Maddie doesn't know what her son did and can stay blissfully ignorant of her childrens' failings...

Edited May 20, 2016 by feverfew
Clarification. Also spelling. Arrg!

[diebartdie]

Chris was not "forced to mercy kill", he could have very easily ran to Daniel for help. Now I agree, he has lost a lot already, I mean just like Ofelia, he lost his mom just a few days ago (of course his loss had some pretty fucked up overtones in that his dad, who had divorced his mom is who mercy killed his mom) but at the same time, his behaviour towards Alicia, his standing in her way so she couldnt get away from her, then grabbing her and pushing her against a wall while demanding she not tell anyone her fears, her side of the story of what she saw him do, all of that was classic abuser behaviour, Alicia was right to go and immediately tell her mom what Chris was doing. Chris is young but he is not a child, no one on this show is a CHILD. Chris is suffering but so is everyone else on that show, his pain is no greater or lesser than anyone else. Just like everyone else, he is cracking under the strain and his way of cracking is unique unto him.

Chris seems really really lost and teetering on the edge of embracing violence for the sake of violence or something but here's what I was thinking while watching that scene of him threatening Alicia. I kept wondering, why did Travis and Liza get divorced? Sure Travis seems all meek but maybe he had an issue with controlling his emotions in the past and got up in Liza's face one too many times, she put him out, he then went into therapy, got on medication, met Maddie and here we are. In other words, since we dont know the backstory here, one way to consider Chris' actions, perhaps he learned at his father's knee.

And again, Im overthinking it. This is a tv show, if that was true, they would have already shown it so nevermind. Well no, not nevermind. Without some underpinning Im left thinking this characterization of Chris is just weird. Travis is a very meek man most of the time, Liza was a driven, passionate, intelligent woman who did not come across as a belligerent, violent person so what would make Chris start being like he's being, he has already killed 2 living humans (think on this, years into the ZA Rick's three questions are "how many walkers have you killed? How many humans? Why [did you kill them]?" implying most folks would have learned to kill the undead first, then humans. Chris basically killed both at the same time in that crashed plane).

I dont think Maddie overreacted, I think Travis did. When she came to Travis with her concerns, Travis jumped right up and started an argument. I mean yes Maddie came in like a house on fire but damn, she was freeked out! She wasnt saying "hey we need to go tell Chris to look at the flowers" but Travis didnt give her any time to present any ideas of what to do for Chris. Maddie doesnt hate Chris, she's just scared. So is Travis, so is everyone else, everyone is just all on edge and jumpy. For right now I think Travis and Maddie should just cool it, stop pretending they have the energy to make a lover relationship work right now and get on with the business of making their group a survivable unit and that includes talking to Chris and trying to figure out a way to help him deal with his pain without him resorting to hurting other people which is what he himself is most afraid of.

[BasilSeal]

2 hours ago, diebartdie said:

Chris seems really really lost and teetering on the edge of embracing violence for the sake of violence or something

the writers are using the split nature of the family dynamic here to create conflict. In the past it's been madison's son nick who has caused all the trouble for them, but ironically nick has turned out to be well suited to life in this new world order, and it's chris who is lost. i don't think he intended to Harm Alicia because if he had he wouldn't have said her name when he entered the room, he said her name to see if she was awake, then when he realise she wasn't he went to get the knife for himself and in the middle of this they are woken by the sound of the shot in Thomas' room, and there's Chris standing over them with a knife, which never looks good.

Travis will feel with some justification that he stood by nick so Madison needs to stand by Chris, but Chris at least appears to be a threat to the safety of Madison's daughter, even though he almost certainly isn't you could forgive Madison for thinking he did given that she has woken up to find someone who has recently killed another human in cold blood standing over her brandishing a carving knife, this is going to fracture the group and as a result is likely to create more danger for them, which is of course the whole point of this plot device.

[feverfew]

2 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

the writers are using the split nature of the family dynamic here to create conflict. In the past it's been madison's son nick who has caused all the trouble for them, but ironically nick has turned out to be well suited to life in this new world order, and it's chris who is lost. [...] this is going to fracture the group and as a result is likely to create more danger for them, which is of course the whole point of this plot device.

You're right, and I probably went into overdrive to defend Chris' actions here. The thing is though, I like my anti-heroes with shades of grey and if the writers are so determined to turn Maddie into the Rick Grimes of the group, they have to let her character be more...real. True. They have to let her stumble. Not always be right. So far I've seen nothing that justifies that sort of overbearing parenting Maddie is exhibiting - on the contrary she's basically trying to stuff her children back into her womb. Visually that sort of parent-fear worked in the first few seasons of TWD, because the actor who played Carl was so young. But Nick and Alicia visually cues as adults. And that in turn makes Maddie's actions look incongruent with what we're shown on the screen. But I'm not so sure we're meant to pick up that disconnect - or if we're supposed to celebrate her "strength"  (Screw you, Thomas Abigail!) If it's the latter, then Chris (who by the way looks significantly younger than Nick and Alicia) is the plot device rather than a character in his own right and that bothers me.

I loved the TWD episode "The Grove". I thought it was an important, tragic episode. I loved debating whether Carl had gone overboard in his zealousness to defend his people in season four. But it makes me mad if this storyline is meant to be a bump in Maddie's road toward Grimeness, because that's just lazy writing.

As far as I'm concerned after Alicia's stunt with the radio and Maddie's selfish* reaction to Travis' plea, I want the group to fracture. I want Maddie to take her kids and run for the hills. That way I can ff through all of their scenes.

 

* even if it's somewhat justified, I don't care anymore. I was previously meh-to-borrrrred on Maddie before, but now it's fullblown hatred.

[The Mighty Peanut]

Come on, guys. Chris just needs the right mentor.

[raven]

I think Maddie has been shown to be an enabler of Nick in the past and she's just waiting for him to slip up this time.  Only if he does slip up, it probably means he's dead.  I find the whole messed up family dynamic interesting.  Even though we saw what happened with Nick, from Travis's perspective I sympathized with him a bit more.  Everything is changing every second but he's all wtf, Maddie is STILL bitching about Chris??  I picture her complaining about him in the past or something, while Travis is going to abandoned buildings to find Nick.  So Maddie was right to be concerned, she doesn't have to be warm and sweet about it, but Travis doesn't know what we saw.  So he's "shut up Maddie" in his mind.

I'm not surprised that they're showing Strand admiring her, he's a selfish dick too except to the one person he cares about.  Maddie is showing the same traits, except her concern is for her kids, not a lover.  I don't know if we're supposed to admire her but I'm curious what she'll do next about Chris.  Standing by the bed with a knife in your hand isn't a good look.

But yeah, Chris's new whatever this is about his character does seem to come from nowhere.  In S1 he was at the riot so maybe he was the kind of kid who liked chaos?  I found the actor so likable on Talking Dead, so I don't want Chris to be a psycho in the making. 

Edited May 21, 2016 by raven

[mightysparrow]

After watching a dog chowing down on the barely dead bodies of the parishioners, I wasn't too bothered to see a kid feed a dog to the walkers.  The Mexicans probably don't have the over-sentimental view of animals that so many of us have here.  I've been in developing countries and watched 'westerners' walk past hungry children to coo over stray dogs.

When I heard Kim Dickens was going to be in FTWD, I was very happy because I had enjoyed her so much in Deadwood.  I don't know what the hell happened.  If her performance is a deliberate choice, I have no idea what she's going for.  I understand Madison is overly-protective of her children but her callousness towards Chris leads me to believe that there might have been some friction before the ZA.  I got the feeling that Chris' mother didn't care for Maddie and that the feeling was mutual.  

I know we're supposed to see Maddie as a mama-bear but all I see is an overly-indulgent lazy parent.  Did she EVER take Alicia to task for endangering the whole fucking group by telling Jack all about the boat and it's whereabouts.  Her son is a junkie,yet it seems that all she does is coddle him and make excuses for him.  I don't blame Travis for being upset that she wasn't willing to give his son the same benefit of the doubt she gives her own but it seemed like too little too late.  Anybody with eyes could tell that Chris was in trouble but Travis neglected his own child to run after Maddie's.

I'm praying the cast loses some of it's dead weight in the season finale.  There are way too many characters that serve absolutely no purpose at all, no matter how cute they are.  Alicia, Ofelia, Chris and Nick, I'm looking at all of you.  And you can take Maddie with you.

[Jordan27]

On 2016-05-20 at 7:11 AM, BasilSeal said:

I disagree, if you compare what we've seen so far of fTWD and compare with the first two seasons of TWD, the writing plotting and characterisation are way ahead. As for the people who find Madison annoying and unsympathetic, i have two words for you, Lori Grimes.

In recent series TWD as upped its game a fair bit with the writing, but it's still not perfect in terms of plot and character development. If you look at the link i posted up thread to the Mostly Film review, i think that is a fair critique of the faults of the early WD, and it also makes the point that what makes TWD watchable despite its faults is that it does the set piece zombie stuff very well.

Perhaps where fTWD is falling down is that it focuses more on the character development and the moral implications of survival at the expense of others, rather than simply being primarily an against the odds hand to hand walker whacking session with a predictably high attrition rate.

This show is full of dumb characters, bad writing and boring plots and not only not close to WD, but is bordering on being unwatchable.

Edited May 24, 2016 by HalcyonDays
Civil conversation req'd

[BasilSeal]

4 hours ago, Jordan27 said:

This show is full of dumb characters, bad writing and boring plots and not only not close to WD,

You have actually watched the walking dead, right?

[Raven1707]

The Cable Live +3 Ratings are in for "Sicut Cervus":

Fear the Walking Dead" was the top gainer again, going from 1.9 to 3.1 and edging "Game of Thrones" for the top spot. The AMC show also had the biggest viewer gain, adding 2.3 million people. [6.784 million viewers]

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2016/05/22/cable-live-3-ratings-may-9-15-2016/

And here are the Live + SD Ratings and Live +3 Ratings for Season 2 so far:

 

04-10-16 "Monster" 6.674 million; Live +3 8.826 million
04-17-16 "We All Fall Down" 5.581 million; Live +3 7.781 million
04-24-16 "Ouroboros" 4.726 million; Live +3 6.995 million
05-01-16 "Blood on the Streets" 4.803 million; Live + 3 6.958 million
05-08-16 "Captive" 4.414 million; Live +3 6.924 million
05-15-16 "Sicut Cervus" 4.486 million; Live +3 6.784 million

[Nashville]

On 5/16/2016 at 1:53 PM, RustbeltWriter said:

Whoa, wait, what's this about Celia not being Thomas' mother? I don't remember that.

As I understand it, Celia was the housekeeper and nanny for the Abigail family.  As such, she most likely did the vast majority of the raising of young Thomas Abigail - and with Thomas apparently being the last surviving member of the Abigail family (or the last member residing at the Mexico property, at least), Celia's role has elevated from household servant to trusted and beloved retinue.

 

On 5/17/2016 at 3:15 AM, BasilSeal said:

As opposed to all the dead children, you mean?

Actually i'm not having a go because i don't like to see animals killed on TV and film myself, but why is that? they kill a whole bus load of kids but it's the dog we find disturbing? It's like that bit in Independence day where the aliens kill millions of innocent people, but don't kill Will Smith's dog, because that would be like, a step too far.

Perhaps it's because we know the violence against humans isn't real, but violence against animals, because it's more prevalent in the real world, somehow seems less cartoonish?

Speaking solely for myself, I generally like dogs better than most people.  So there's that.

[Jordan27]

On ‎5‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 7:37 PM, BasilSeal said:

You have actually watched the walking dead, right?

I don't think you have.

On ‎5‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 9:01 PM, Raven1707 said:

The Cable Live +3 Ratings are in for "Sicut Cervus":

Fear the Walking Dead" was the top gainer again, going from 1.9 to 3.1 and edging "Game of Thrones" for the top spot. The AMC show also had the biggest viewer gain, adding 2.3 million people. [6.784 million viewers]

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2016/05/22/cable-live-3-ratings-may-9-15-2016/

And here are the Live + SD Ratings and Live +3 Ratings for Season 2 so far:

 

04-10-16 "Monster" 6.674 million; Live +3 8.826 million
04-17-16 "We All Fall Down" 5.581 million; Live +3 7.781 million
04-24-16 "Ouroboros" 4.726 million; Live +3 6.995 million
05-01-16 "Blood on the Streets" 4.803 million; Live + 3 6.958 million
05-08-16 "Captive" 4.414 million; Live +3 6.924 million
05-15-16 "Sicut Cervus" 4.486 million; Live +3 6.784 million

The show is losing viewers.  Not surprising. 

[BasilSeal]

3 hours ago, Jordan27 said:

I don't think you have.

Oh i have, but i don't think you could pay me enough to watch the first two series again. The events of the last two episodes of this show were spun out into the entire second series of TWD.

fTWD certainly isn't without its faults, but then neither is the parent show. I find it bizarre that people are criticising this show on the basis of the characters doing dumb things and the characterisation being poor when they've watched TWD and thought that was just fine and dandy, because all the faults they're complaining about are just as prevalent in TWD, more so in the earlier series.

The thing is, fTWD is not just a carbon copy of TWD with different two dimensional protagonists. TWD has the dark and gloomy look of the graphic novel, it is very good at doing the set piece zombie action shots that have always been TWD's saving grace, and it has the "iconic" established comic book characters the fans want to see along with the visceral gore and psychotic gang leaders.

FTWD is a very different show, it's shot differently in stark bright sunlight, (similar to Romero's work), and deals with different themes of the personal cost of survival and obligation to others. It's not a perfect show by any means but it's not inherently worse than TWD, it's just different.

[ghoulina]

Yes, people were doing dumb shit on the parent show. That's not necessarily the issue here. For me, it's the fact that none of these people are likeable. I was instantly hooked on TWD because the acting was very good and the characters really drew me in. I cared about them. I was immediately invested in their stories. These people are just stupid. Miserable. No redeeming qualities. 

Also, it's not just the characters being stupid, but the writers are seemingly stupid as well. Their plots are muddled and often incomprehensible. Seasons 1 and 2 of the parent show were wonderful, IMO, especially season 1. Darabont was a genius and there was a beauty about those early episodes that made it stand out from other things on TV.

This show is just nonsensical crap about horrible people. Blah.

[Raven1707]

Oops, posted in the wrong thread.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Raven1707

[Jordan27]

16 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

Oh i have, but i don't think you could pay me enough to watch the first two series again. The events of the last two episodes of this show were spun out into the entire second series of TWD.

fTWD certainly isn't without its faults, but then neither is the parent show. I find it bizarre that people are criticising this show on the basis of the characters doing dumb things and the characterisation being poor when they've watched TWD and thought that was just fine and dandy, because all the faults they're complaining about are just as prevalent in TWD, more so in the earlier series.

The thing is, fTWD is not just a carbon copy of TWD with different two dimensional protagonists. TWD has the dark and gloomy look of the graphic novel, it is very good at doing the set piece zombie action shots that have always been TWD's saving grace, and it has the "iconic" established comic book characters the fans want to see along with the visceral gore and psychotic gang leaders.

FTWD is a very different show, it's shot differently in stark bright sunlight, (similar to Romero's work), and deals with different themes of the personal cost of survival and obligation to others. It's not a perfect show by any means but it's not inherently worse than TWD, it's just different.

 

What ever problems WD had were minimized by the great characters of Rick, Shane, Michonne, Daryl and even Merle.

Plus, the writing and plots kept me coming back and were far superior to FTWD.

The themes in FTWD are ridiculous and boring.  The personal cost of survival and obligation to others is dealt with in WD much better.

And lastly, other than Strand and Salazar, all the other characters are a waste.

I noticed you called them series.  Are you from England?

[BasilSeal]

On 30/05/2016 at 0:47 AM, Jordan27 said:

Are you from England?

Yes. i'm in the UK

On 30/05/2016 at 0:47 AM, Jordan27 said:

What ever problems WD had were minimized by the great characters of Rick, Shane, Michonne, Daryl and even Merle.

TWD has the advantage of portraying already established 'iconic' characters from the comic book, (OK, not Merle and Daryl). My criticism would be that, particularly in the earlier seasons,  the characters are drawn with the broadest of brushes, with personalities that expand and contract as necessary to fill the requirements of the plot. There are many instances where characters behave in ways completely contradictory to what we've seen them do before simply because the plot requires them to, and they frequently indulge in that most annoying of modern writing tropes where characters withhold important information from each other for no good reason other than to create conflict and drama.

 

On 30/05/2016 at 0:47 AM, Jordan27 said:

Plus, the writing and plots kept me coming back and were far superior to FTWD.

The writing has improved massively in recent series, it' still not perfect by any means though, there's still a heavy reliance on having character who've previously shown themselves to be incredibly resourceful and resilient doing really dumb things for some reason just to drive the plot.  The ending to the mid season finale was particularly weak and anti climactic, and having one of the key characters hide under a bin for the first half of the season was a massive fuck you to the fans, not to mention the wholly cynical final cliff hanger.

 

On 30/05/2016 at 0:47 AM, Jordan27 said:

The themes in FTWD are ridiculous and boring.  The personal cost of survival and obligation to others is dealt with in WD much better.

Care to show you working on that one? simply stating it doesn't make it so.

On 30/05/2016 at 0:47 AM, Jordan27 said:

And lastly, other than Strand and Salazar, all the other characters are a waste

Strand and Salazar are certainly the best characters on the show, I agree, the others suffer from not being the most likeable or engaging of people, (though Nick is growing on me). At least the development of these characters is linear and logical though, not random and nonsensical.

[Raven1707]

The Live +7 Ratings are in for "Sicut Cervus":

"Fear the Walking Dead" and "Game of Thrones" once again had the biggest gains in Live +7 viewing for the week of May 9-15.

"Fear the Walking Dead" added 1.5 points to its adults 18-49 rating (1.9 to 3.4), edging the 1.4-point bump for "Game of Thrones" (3.9 to 5.3). The two switched places in the viewer race. [7.292 million viewers]

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2016/05/31/cable-live-7-ratings-may-9-15-2016/

With one exception, here are the Live +7 ratings for Season 2 so far:

04-10-16 “Monster” Live +7 9.405 million
04-17-16 “We All Fall Down” Live +7 8.325 million
04-24-16 “Ouroboros” Live +7 7.476 million
05-01-16 “Blood on the Streets” Live +7 7.408 million
05-08-16 “Captive” unavailable
05-15-16 “Sicut Cervus” Live +7 7.292 million