S05.E08: Homeward Bound

[Hecate7]

Ack, my long, polished, post vanished, but the short version is that I disagree with equating Hannah and the Curb character.  The writer suggests viewers are just more tolerant of that behavior and mindset in males.   And gracious, so much hate for Hannah!

 

But I definitely don't hate Hannah--I keep coming back because I'm fascinated by her narcissistic world-view.  How much further can she go before the weight of her own myopic silliness crushes her--or at least boinks her on the head hard enough to get her attention?

 

I decided the Larry David character simply took a lot of pride in being an asshole.  So I quit watching.

 

 

All four girls, just like their real-life counterparts, are entitled, not because of their looks or their brains or their talents, but because of who their parents are. Men do it, too. But women/girls are expected to become that way by marrying it, even nowadays, whereas men are given the support to become that way through education and work.

[represent]

IMO Larry David was a poor comparison, I think this show is a dramedy, while Curb and Seinfeld were comedies. Just straight humor, none of the characters were presented as taking themselves seriously. They were idiots, with the occasional wife or parent there to roll their eyes at the behavior. They didn't even consider themselves to be adults. They couldn't show any growth, because it would take away from the humor that fans like me who just loved these two shows enjoyed. 

 

At the end of Seinfeld all four main characters went to jail for breaking a Good Samaritan law, and that shit was comedy gold, down the very last second. You knew they were losers, and that they spat on society's conventions, but if you liked and understood that kind of humor you came back for more. 

 

This show, I chuckle here and there, but I take these characters seriously, because I see them taking themselves seriously. They seem to be in search of something, meanwhile Larry and Jerry and all their friends were always trying to get out of doing something. They had absolutely no desire to contribute at all, LOL. 

 

That's why it's easier to be disappointed when the characters on this show don't show growth. This show is not just about comedy, it is about relationships and being a productive member of society.  I never expected, nor looked for any of these characteristics on Seinfeld and Curb, because they were never presented that way, ever. 

Edited April 13, 2016 by represent

[Petunia13]

I just wanted to say as this is important I have the exact same phone as Jessa.

Actually 2 of that $15 model which is pay by the min or month phone she has. It is a total piece of shit by the way. And commitment free and is SO her.

[Armchair Critic]

I cringe at something Hannah does every episode, but her going down on Ray was one of the worst cringe inducing moments from this show. From watching the movie Parenthood I knew what was going to happen when she did that while he was driving.

 

 

Run far far away Ray and Fran!

Edited April 13, 2016 by Armchair Critic

[Petunia13]

My mother has rapid cycling bipolar disorder & had PPD after my younger sister was born. She had episodes where she left us with others or alone for spells and one episode when I was 4 and my sister was a newborn and she tried to kill herself.

I think if a mother believes she will harm her child or herself she should walk away and seek help.

But if anything it is important to walk away from the defenseless thing that counts on you or you may resent. Just like a spouse abandoning or taking a break from a marriage isn't nice...but better than staying if they have distured thoughts about them or consider hurting them .

I don't have hard feelings or judgment about what she or the character here did because a chemical imbalance in the brain isn't chosen. And it's not like when they get pregnant they realize before that it will happen.

[announcergirl]

I think Jemima is pretty and Jessa is gross,which is probably a compliment to the actress's abilities.

Exactly!

[Hecate7]

You put a tiny dixie cup over it while you're changing him to avoid getting peed on. I learned this the hard way.

 

 

OMG! How did I not already know this? This is the most brilliant thing I've ever read. That's marvellous.

[terrymct]

Is it that Larry David is so goofy, people do not take offense?

 

 

I think that's it, Larry David (and the Seinfeld characters by extension) are goofy and cartoonish.   You know that Kramer will be an idiot but somehow he'll skate through in the end.  George and Larry David (since both characters are based on the real life man) will be shiftless and offensive and will have some consequences for his actions, but maybe not to many of them.     One of the other differences between the Larry David Show/Seinfeld and Girls is that in the Larry David/Seinfeld shows, normal people around the main characters in Larry David/Seinfeld reacted as we the viewers would have.  You see the horror in the faces of the other people at the dinner party when Larry David or George does something.  In Girls, the "normal" people around the main characters don't reliably react as real people would.   Hannah's principle doesn't fire her on the spot (and, frankly, no one in Seinfeld or Larry David ever flashed their crotch at their boss).  A guy who catches Hannah in his trash can doesn't yell at her, he has sex with her all weekend instead.  Remember when Hannah worked for that older man?  I think he was a lawyer and there was a bunch of inappropriate touching?  Did Elaine and the Peterman boss ever do that stuff?

 

For me, it's not just that Hannah is highly inappropriate and an idiot, it's the context around her where this is supposed to be somehow cute and funny.   Hannah isn't stealing a marble rye bread and running down the street with it or feeding beef-a-roni to a Central Park horse.   The people around Hannah inexplicably put up with her horrendous behavior, sure, with some eye rolling but not with the reactions that adults should have when faced with those actions.

[qtpye]

Yeah, If you take gender out of the equation (something that is almost impossible to do in our society), it is like every time I expect a character to turn left, they go right.

 

It is almost like exploring an alien world.  It is to Lena's credit that I am still so invested in these people, but Hannah is bewildering.

[DollEyes]

  Just when it almost seemed like Hannah couldn't possibly get even worse, she does, not once, not twice, but three times with three different guys. First, Fran. Hannah claimed last week that she wanted to work things out with Fran, hence the road trip, only to dump him via text message, trying to hide from him in a public restroom and then awkwardly ran away from him in the woods like he was a serial killer in a low-budget horror movie, not that I blame Fran for wanting to go full Freddy Krueger on her useless, pathetic ass for many reasons, whether it was her invading his privacy and deleting his exes' nude pics from his phone without permission, her picking fights with him about work, her picking a fight with him at work in front of a student, cheating on him when she & her mom spent the weekend together or all the shit she pulled this week. This episode proves that dumping someone via text is even lamer than dumping someone via Post-It, like Berger did to Carrie on Sex & the City. I never believed that Hannah & Fran would last, but most of their problems were because of her, not him. Props to Fran for not letting Hannah ditch him and get away with it. After the way Hannah treated Fran, "rude" is the nicest thing that Fran (and his brother) could call her.

 

  Then there's Ray, who's a much better friend to Hannah than she deserves. Ray went out of his way for Hannah when he didn't have to and Hannah repaid him by sexually assaulting him, wrecking his brand-new van and leaving him on the side of the road to run off with a stranger. If the shoe were on the other foot and Ray had treated Hannah like that, chances are she not only would have had a huge shit fit, at the very least she might have seriously considered pressing charges. Hannah treated Ray like she treated Fran-blindsiding him, abandoning him and acting like she did nothing wrong, like somehow, she's the victim. My problem with Hannah isn't about LD's looks; it's about Hannah's behavior, her attitude and her character-or rather, in too many cases this season, the extreme lack thereof. Inappropriate doesn't even begin to describe Hannah's behavior in general nor in this episode in particular. I would be just as offended by Hannah's sexually assaulting Ray (among other things) if she looked like a supermodel. That Ray warned Hector not to hurt Hannah despite everything that she did to him, his day and his new truck is to Ray's credit. Last but not least, there's Hector. That Hector turned out to be a decent human being fresh out of an abusive relationship is just pure, dumb luck. I've read/watched the news and seen way too many Lifetime movies not to know that Hector could have killed Hannah. Just because Hannah was smart & lucky enough to be on the phone with Marnie doesn't mean that things couldn't have gone South, in more ways than one.  Hector's joy at seeing the NYC skyline for the first time proved that there are still some things that not even Hannah can ruin.

Edited April 15, 2016 by DollEyes

[cardigirl]

  Then there's Ray, who's a much better friend to Hannah than she deserves. Ray went out of his way for Hannah when he didn't have to and Hannah repaid him by sexually assaulting him, wrecking his brand-new van and leaving him on the side of the road to run off with a stranger. If the shoe were on the other foot and Ray had treated Hannah like that, chances are she not only would have had a huge shit fit, at the very least she might have seriously considered pressing charges. Hannah treated Ray like she treated Fran-blindsiding him, abandoning him and acting like she did nothing wrong, like somehow, she's the victim. My problem with Hannah isn't about LD's looks; it's about Hannah's behavior, her attitude and her character-or rather, in too many cases this season, the extreme lack thereof. Inappropriate doesn't even begin to describe Hannah's behavior in general nor in this episode in particular. I would be just as offended by Hannah's sexually assaulting Ray (among other things) if she looked like a supermodel. That Ray warned Hector not to hurt Hannah despite everything that she did to him, his day and his new truck is to Ray's credit. 

I agreed with everything you wrote about this character.  I think that sometimes, in the name of empowering women, Leah feels that her characters should act this way instead of being demure, or pleasant, or even kind.  And that it's okay, because they are showing woman power or whatever.  But, if a male character had done any of this that Hannah has done this season, they would be arrested, as you pointed out about Ray. 

 

If anything, my take away from Hannah's behavior is that she has the right to act however she feels at the moment, and not worry about consequences or how she may be making anyone else feel.  Now, I don't know how much "power" that gives one, because all it seems to do for Hannah is give her dissatisfaction.

[WhosThatGirl]

I usually don't dislike Hannah either. I usually find her amusing, BUT seeing her attempting to suck off Ray as a "thank you" was the most disturbing thing I have ever seen and it makes me think differently about the character. This is pretty much a "jump the shark" moment for her and it kind of angers me that Lena said in the inside bit that it was inevitable for Hannah and Ray to have some sort of sexual interaction? Like, really? They have always been firmly established in this sibling-relationship. How was it inevitable?

Yes, that made me mad too. Hannah and Ray have never flirted or had any sort of vibe this was going there. If anything, Hannah is the only one of the four girls who Ray has not had the vibe with, they were portrayed in this way by the show and it worked. Not every guy//girl has to have a sexual moment between them. Lena has been VERY off in the inside the episodes lately. 

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

Lena referring to Fran as having "anger issues" in this week's Inside the Episode was a major WTF? for me. Yes, he was angry, but he expressed himself way more reasonably than almost anyone in the world would have. Also, someone who tries to give you a ride back to the city after you've broken up with them in the most absurd, childish way possible isn't being a "Nice Guy", he's being a genuinely nice guy.

It was the same last week when Lena said Fran was a bit square for getting upset that Hannah flashed their boss. For all LD is clearly more together than Hannah, she has a truly bizarre lens through which she views society.

[represent]

 

Yes, that made me mad too. Hannah and Ray have never flirted or had any sort of vibe this was going there. If anything, Hannah is the only one of the four girls who Ray has not had the vibe with, they were portrayed in this way by the show and it worked. Not every guy//girl has to have a sexual moment between them. Lena has been VERY off in the inside the episodes lately.

OK, even I, who have not seen every episode of this show, remembers the scene with Ray/Adam and a dog. I can't remember where the dog came from, but Adam was returning it? Trying to find the owner? Ray was with him, I can't remember why, but he was with him.  They got into an argument and Ray pretty much said in a matter a words, that he was not attracted to Hannah and I think he even questioned why Adam was... Yeah, he literally said that he did not find her attractive. Then Adam got pissed and I think Ray left.

I don't remember which season the episode was in, nor do I remember any of the other scenes from the episode, but I pretty much remember a scene like this. 

 

So, did Dunham forget this? What is she talking about? Is she coming undone like Hannah?  OK, what's up?

Edited April 14, 2016 by represent

[WhosThatGirl]

OK, even I, who have not seen every episode of this show, remembers the scene with Ray/Adam and a dog. I can't remember where the dog came from, but Adam was returning it? Trying to find the owner? Ray was with him, I can't remember why, but he was with him.  They got into an argument and Ray pretty much said in a matter a words, that he was not attracted to Hannah and I think he even questioned why Adam was... Yeah, he literally said that he did not find her attractive. Then Adam got pissed and I think Ray left.

I don't remember which season the episode was in, nor do I remember any of the other scenes from the episode, but I pretty much remember a scene like this. 

 

So, did Dunham forget this? What is she talking about? Is she coming undone like Hannah?  OK, what's up?

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Also Ray was with Adam because Hannah took Ray's Little Women book and left it at his house and Ray had to go get it and then somehow made Ray go with him to give the dog back but yes! Ray was pretty much like ew on Hannah and Adam left the dog with Ray so Ray had to return it. 

[violetr]

This little write up from the AV Club doesn't really say anything that the Vulture piece didn't, but I do find this part interesting:

 

"Hannah is both female and a millennial, so there are two kinds of widespread prejudices working against her in the minds of viewers. But, underneath it all, the culprit may be that Hannah consistently undermines viewers’ expectations of what a television character is “supposed” to be. That boldness comes directly from Dunham, who refuses to conform to the norm and make Girls a show about redemption. Hannah won’t grow and change just to make viewers happy. That’s not what Girls is about. Ultimately, there’s something admirable and brave about this."

 

I tend to agree (even as I watch the show and know for a fact that I wouldn't want someone like Hannah anywhere near my life.) I think this is the crux of Dunham's art thus far in her young life, and I do think it deserves the niche it's carved out in popular culture. 

[SomePity1066]

This entire season, with the last episode in particular, has me nodding wholeheartedly in agreement with posters here who have indicated that we're all being set up for a spectacular implosion of Hannah's character, most probably in the two-episode season finale this weekend.

 

The triumvirate of sexual acting out - going down on a random stranger at a spa, flashing the principal, and then blowing a guy she's only friends with - all add up, to me, to Hannah totally losing her shit. Even for her, and this is really saying something, this season has been a slow motion train wreck of epic proportions. The worst part is that Lena Dunham, in all her faux-empowerment glory, doesn't seem to recognize that Hannah's spectacular decline isn't a model of feminism and that her veritable celebration of mental illness isn't something to be lauded. Dunham loses me more and more each week with her Inside the Episode comments that become increasingly more tone deaf as the season drags on. Perhaps next week she'll have Hannah shit her pants in public and then walk around with it all day while explaining that she's just "expressing herself" ? I'm not kidding here - I can actually see that happening.

 

Hanna isn't some adorable, twee millennial who wears quirky hats while "finding her voice" in the Big City. She's a profoundly damaged, insufferable twat who, in the "real" world, would have no job, no friends, and no home. The lack of consequences for her ri-goddamn-diculous behavior is so frustrating that I need to find a better word for "frustrating" ! I just want to yell at the TV screen "That's not how this works ! That's not how ANY of this works !!!"

 

[WhosThatGirl]

The thing is, honestly, I don't see this ending up with Hannah having some sort of mental condition- I don't want it to, because this show would not do it well- but based on the comments Lena makes about these past episodes, she has no problems with Hannah's behavior as of late. As I said in an earlier post, either Lena has a kick ass poker face and is hiding that Hannah's really losing her mind or like I'm thinking, Hannah's going to be just fine at the end of this season and be the hot mess she keeps being. To me, Lena has shown no indication that all this is leading somewhere. 

[ReadMeLattice]

I didn't think much of the fling with the hot instructor at the retreat, but omg, the flashing and the sexual assault? How the fuck do these have to do with feminism/mental health/anything she claims to want to cover? Just when I think Lena is going for straight up absurd chaos, I start to laugh about it and get into the sheer craziness and have fun--and then I watch the Inside the Episodes and I'm like, what?!?!?! Fran has major anger issues?! He's a prude for not wanting Hannah to show her vagina to their boss?! What the fuck?

The only truly bad things I thought Fran did were keep those pictures on his phone and correct Hannah's papers for her on a creative assignment. I thought the phone thing was weird in terms of consent (presumably they sent those when they were in a relationship) and I also personally think that's just sort of bad boyfriend behavior unless your girlfriend is cool with it. And Hannah calling them all sluts made no sense if she's supposed to be some sort of feminist character. But Lena said THAT was fine and Hannah was the one with insecurities, while apparently Hannah sexually assaulting a guy, a woman sexually pressuring Hannah to the point of finishing with her still in the room when Hannah has clearly said "no, I'm not interested" (imagine if a guy did that to Hannah and the shitfits and trauma that would follow!!!), and sexually harassing your boss are all 100% fine. I will just never understand Lena's worldview.

[candall]

Everybody's so upset about "Hannah" giving "Ray" a mobile blow.

 

I was primarily cringing about how awkward it must be to film one take after another with your face smashed down against your co-worker's junk.

 

I know they all must have developed a degree of comfort with the nudity and the slap & tickle, but still.

*******************

 

Where is this aftershow interview of which you all speak??

 

It sounds so interesting, and it also sounds like LD's show insights have recently slid more than a half a bubble off plumb.

 

Maybe Lena Dunham is feeling shaken and defensive after a million articles musing that "everyone" despises the character she created, and with whom she must feel a strong connection.

 

Many of the comments in the articles are vicious--and address Lena, not Hannah.

 

Next week, on The Internet Ruined My Life. . .

[DianeDobbler]

Another piece of it for me is that there are parts of Lena that are genuinely not mainstream, and go well beyond quirky. If you remember the story Dunham told about her baby sister, the fact that the story she presented as autiobiographical is impossible (no way her sister, aged one, had the dexterity OR the mental development to enact that scenario) means it's a lie - and it is a lie because it's impossible for a one year old - so instead of that story being an account of something that actually happened, it's a glimpse into Dunham's very particular imagination, some of which is seriously off the grid and disturbing. And next to it, there's what appears to be the majority of Lena Dunham that's ON grid (accessible, even if not relatable) by virtue of her being smart, empathetic, funny (I think the combination of her acting as Hannah, the writing for Hannah, and the downright trolling she sometimes does of the audience as Hannah can be hysterical), relatable, feminist, etc. So it's this combination of a reality-based, seemingly accessibly off-beat, talented person, and then the WHOA - WTF side, that is ALSO authentic, but something a whole lot harder for people not her to access. And she puts both aspects of herself in the show. Not sure though, since she did share the little sister story, that she grasps how little other people can access THAT side or know what it's supposed to mean (if you guys don't know the story about her little sister at age one, it can be googled I'm sure).

 

As a milder example, using another comedy writer, a lot of me loved Tina Fey on 30 Rock, and found her hilarious, relatable, whip smart, etc., but then would be put off by a seeming recurrent preoccupation with scat references, as well as with her entire attitude towards sex and thought that often impacted the show negatively and worked against its organic development (even a show that's a joke machine, if it has characters, generally has organic character development).

Edited April 15, 2016 by DianeDobbler

[ReadMeLattice]

In some ways she reminds me of Louis CK, who is not afraid at least as his stand up/show character to sometimes come across as a fucked up misogynist or sociopath, though he's generally lovable.

[Petunia13]

The after show airs literally after the show and is 5 minutes long. It's also in DVDs if previous seasons. In one she described Patrick Wilson as "so hideous and hard to have love scenes with" HEE HEE

RME. Basically all of her commentary has been off base for years.

Jessa tattoos are rivaling Hannah's in artistic technique and beauty.

[WhosThatGirl]

Yes her commentary has never been on, but as of late, these past couple of episodes, it's something else entirety. The things she says don't make any sort of sense. Like how in her real life, if her boyfriend would be upset at her flashing for her job, she would have a problem with her boyfriend then, it's like, "yes but acting is different from being a teacher!" the hell. It is a very different situation. You can't compare the two.  It just doesn't make sense. 

[DianeDobbler]

A side observation - Jessa may have never held a baby, but Jemima Kirke so very clearly was comfortable holding the baby they maybe should have figured out a way to make it look awkward. She was particularly adept at keeping a firm, secure hold on the baby's core with one arm, while picking up the phone with the other, and then she neatly swung the baby's legs into her lap as she sat down. Most TV babies are cast for placid dispositions, but Kirke obviously knew how to keep that baby secure/stable.

[chocolatine]

OK, even I, who have not seen every episode of this show, remembers the scene with Ray/Adam and a dog. I can't remember where the dog came from, but Adam was returning it? Trying to find the owner? Ray was with him, I can't remember why, but he was with him.  They got into an argument and Ray pretty much said in a matter a words, that he was not attracted to Hannah and I think he even questioned why Adam was... Yeah, he literally said that he did not find her attractive. Then Adam got pissed and I think Ray left.

I don't remember which season the episode was in, nor do I remember any of the other scenes from the episode, but I pretty much remember a scene like this. 

 

So, did Dunham forget this? What is she talking about? Is she coming undone like Hannah?  OK, what's up?

 

He also at one point said that he wasn't attracted to Marnie. Back when he was with Shosh, and Marnie moved in with them after her big fight with Hannah and losing her job, the three of them were brainstorming about what job Marnie could do next. Shosh suggested that she could do a "pretty person job", and Marnie was like "really, you guys think I'm attractive?" and Ray said "well, I'm not attracted to you because I know you". And after the first time they slept together, Ray asked Marnie to "keep it on the DL", and it was Marnie who kept chasing him down for sex. It seems like Ray only started "loving" Marnie after Desi had entered the picture and Marnie dropped Ray like a hot potato.

[Hecate7]

I didn't think much of the fling with the hot instructor at the retreat, but omg, the flashing and the sexual assault? How the fuck do these have to do with feminism/mental health/anything she claims to want to cover? Just when I think Lena is going for straight up absurd chaos, I start to laugh about it and get into the sheer craziness and have fun--and then I watch the Inside the Episodes and I'm like, what?!?!?! Fran has major anger issues?! He's a prude for not wanting Hannah to show her vagina to their boss?! What the fuck?

The only truly bad things I thought Fran did were keep those pictures on his phone and correct Hannah's papers for her on a creative assignment. I thought the phone thing was weird in terms of consent (presumably they sent those when they were in a relationship) and I also personally think that's just sort of bad boyfriend behavior unless your girlfriend is cool with it. And Hannah calling them all sluts made no sense if she's supposed to be some sort of feminist character. But Lena said THAT was fine and Hannah was the one with insecurities, while apparently Hannah sexually assaulting a guy, a woman sexually pressuring Hannah to the point of finishing with her still in the room when Hannah has clearly said "no, I'm not interested" (imagine if a guy did that to Hannah and the shitfits and trauma that would follow!!!), and sexually harassing your boss are all 100% fine. I will just never understand Lena's worldview.

 

 

Oh, that's not ok to do? I thought people did that all the time. Guys, I mean. I mean, she can leave the room. Nobody's forcing her to stay.

 

I actually think the comparison with Larry David is apt, but instead of just being "proud of being an asshole," or basically proud of getting his own way and not caring what anybody thinks, Hannah has to equate everything she's doing with social progress and feminism. She can't just be proud of being a spoiled brat who gets her own way all the time, because there's a filter on how we perceive women. Being a jerk is so much worse if you're female, and I think sometimes Hannah gets such confusing feedback that she doesn't even realize she's a jerk, not a feminist icon.

 

I would like to think that Dunham is laughing at Hannah, but also at the way people don't know what to do with her. If I were Hannah's boss and she flashed me like that, I'd have fired her on the spot for sexual harassment. I strongly suspect that some money has changed hands, and that Hannah's Mom paid handsomely or did some major favors for someone, and that is why Hannah got and keeps her job. Imagine if a man flashed his female boss. Police would escort him from the building!

 

Hannah can dismiss the outrage of her female friends because girls are always wrong about everything, so who cares what they think? She also dismisses older people as being out of touch. She can likewise dismiss the opinions of her male friends because they're male. She pretends Fran has an anger problem, but really that's just her insane fantasy. She tried to coax some genuine abuse out of Adam, too. It's just something she thinks should be there, so she pretends it is. Dunham has either carefully drawn a jerk character and underscored how being unsure of her role in society as a young woman makes her an even bigger jerk, or she's written an autobiographical character and doesn't realize what a jerk this girl is. I doubt she'd have gotten her show produced if she were as much of a jerk as the character, and so I think what she's done is deliberately caricature herself, blowing up the worst aspects of her own personality to ludicrous proportions. But I don't think she has a Seinfeldian "no hugging, no learning" rule. She has the girls learn very slowly and very selectively. And there's almost too much hugging.

[ReadMeLattice]

I just thought the sauna scene was iffy-- imagine if she'd been hooking up with a guy and clearly asked to stop and he'd pushed her head down on him more for a moment trying to finish, then demanded/yelled that she should continue as she continued to say she wasn't into it and got dressed, then finished loudly while she reiterated she didn't like it. It would be a Very Special Rape Culture Episode.

[DollEyes]

More observations:

 

Re Shoshanna, I thought that she was shitty to both Scott & Yoshi and Scott was right to read her for applying for welfare while she was in a sushi bar. Shosh's returning to NYC was just as impulsive to me as her choosing to stay in Japan. The more Shosh got carried away with the novelty of being in Japan, the harder the reality (aka homesickness) kicked her ass, making both Scott and cute, sweet Yoshi collateral damage in the process. However, if Shosh helps Ray's business and drives those pretentious, hipster assholes out of town-or at least, off the block-that would be a big step in the right direction, proving that her trip to Japan did her some good after all. 

 

  About Marnie & Desi, IMO Marnie lost her right to be butthurt about what/whom Desi does when she cheated on him with her "diabetic" ex and told Desi the next day that she wanted a divorce, plus anyone who walks around NYC barefoot of their own free will is not to be trusted. ITA with those who think that Lisa Bonet is stunning. As a sister, I know that "Black don't crack," but in LB's case, it doesn't even scratch. Not only is LB still gorgeous, IMO she looks better than Allison Williams.  As far as I'm concerned, any woman who can survive Bill Cosby, marry/have kids with both Lenny Kravitz and Jason Momoa and still looks good must be doing something  right.

 

  About Adam, I never thought I'd say this, but I loved him this week. Adam was mature, compassionate and downright adorable in this episode-in other words, Adam was everything that Hannah was not. Adam & Sample are too precious for words. Adam is the best thing to happen to Sample and vice versa. At this point, neither Caroline nor Laird are fit parents. Caroline's deep in the throws of PPD and while her admitting it is half the battle, that's all it is-half the battle. Caroline's leaving Sample because she doesn't want to hurt her is the right thing to do, but that's not the only thing she should do. Caroline needs serious psychiatric help ASAP and the more, the better.  As for Laird, that he didn't report Caroline's disappearance to the cops nor told Adam for 3 days proves he's not Father Of the Year material. Adam might be Sample's only fighting chance at any semblance of a "normal" life. Jessa's reaction to Sample's spit-up was a little silly to me. If that were me, while I would be annoyed about it, I would also clean it up myself because, to paraphrase Adam, "[i'm not] more helpless than a baby." 

Edited April 15, 2016 by DollEyes

[ReadMeLattice]

We actually don't know where Caroline fled. She could even have checked into a hospital, but Laird is weak and pretty out of it himself and wouldn't think of that.

[DianeDobbler]

Doll Eyes, if that Helvetica coffee place - the hipster lounge across from Ray's place - is within a stone's throw of Williamsberg, it and ten others could burn down without putting a dent in the remaining supply of crunchy, fashionably shabby/reclaimed, colourfully decrepit hangouts. I want to know where his place is meant to be in Brooklyn. If he's in a hipster place, one more hipster place isn't going to hurt his business. He'd be drowning in them. If he's in a "normal" part of Brooklyn, then there wouldn't be enough hipsters to keep Helvetica going, and his place would still have plenty of regulars. In Williamsberg there's about four hipster restaurants/pastry places/you name it per square yard.

 

I like Girls, and I especially like that set design makes New York apartments look like NY apartments (Laird's and Caroline's is totally on point, that cramped studio unit Marnie lived in was as well), but there's stuff like Ray's storyline that makes me go ???? Not to mention all of them would have to have trust funds or they'd long since been driven out of the city based on what we're shown of how little of a living they earn.

Edited April 15, 2016 by DianeDobbler

[27bored]

The problem, and part of the reason I assume so many of the mental illness/was this wrong or right/does Hannah have a mental illness or not reactions from media and viewers are veering into offensive territory, is that Lena has made her mentally ill characters (Caroline, Jessa with her addiction, Hannah) into cartoon characters. That's fine with satire, but mental illness already carries a huge stigma and people already have all sorts of inaccurate, stereotyped ideas about what mental illness "is." She perpetuates those ideas and even makes them worse. I truly hope Hannah doesn't have bipolar disorder because it'll just make people with bipolar disorder seem ridiculous, and people already have crazy ideas about it. Caroline was a 100% satirical character before, blown up far larger than life, so of course it's hard to see her PPD as serious and difficult and painful because we're used to her being a crazy caricature rather than a person. And how are we supposed to see addicts as people in pain rather than selfish or weak assholes when Jessa, Laird, and Adam are the addicts on this show?

 

I don't want to belabor the point because I think what Hecate said about us not seeing the last of Caroline is probably true, but I agree with the above for the most part. First of all, the show didn't say Caroline had post-partum depression, so to me it's a little premature to say she left as a result of it. It seems plausible, but so does the idea that Caroline couldn't deal with the pressures of parenting and left. I mean, I think that's a very real thing too. Fathers do it all the time without theorizing that they might be suffering from some undiagnosed mental illness.There's no need to pathologize it. She wanted out, so she left.

 

However, given the fact that this is Girls and it's likely all the main characters have some form of mental illness, I'm saying her decision to leave was wrong. Period. It might not be something a well person would do, but wrong is wrong. PPD might be a rationalization -- she's depressed and might be having an episode -- but the thing we're talking about, her leaving her baby and Laird, was wrong. I don't like the suggestion (though I'm not saying you're saying this, per se) that whatever someone does, if we can reasonably blame it on mental illness, that they're not really to blame. Being a bad person, even with a pitiable excuse, is a good reason to seek help and address issues. I didn't say Caroline was a piece of shit because she might have post-partum depression, or certain thoughts and feelings as a result of it. I said she was a piece of shit for leaving and doing so in the way she did. I think it was selfish and it put the other people in her life in a bit of a crisis. It might not have been her intentions, but...that's what happened.

Edited April 15, 2016 by 27bored

[ReadMeLattice]

Yes, but if she was truly afraid of hurting her child, what else could she have done? What if her choices were to flee or hurt her child, or kill herself and thus leave her child with no mother at all and her spouse a widower? In severe cases, that's what it comes down to.

Yes, you're still responsible for your choices (to an extent) with a mental illness, but the stigma also leads people to think of themselves as a burden. What if she truly, 100% thinks that letting Laird and Sample go is better for them due to her mental illness? It's not as simple as "she is a piece of shit for leaving." Attitudes are so harsh especially towards mothers with mental health issues that people do truly believe it'd be better for others if they were dead or gone. Calling that deluded and distorted and even immoral in some way, sure, but totally selfish, no. That's a reductive way to look at it.

Suicidal ideation itself IS a mental health issue, so she most certainly has one. Abd this is a dark thought, but she could be leaving not to escape, but to hurt herself. I hope that's not what we are being led to believe. I think we are certainly asked to see her issues as PPD, as the symptoms she lists read like a textbook diagnosis and because it's Girls.

[guilfoyleatpp]

I was trying to handwave the "does she or doesn't she" discussion around Caroline's potential PPD and Bi Polar Disorder because it was getting heated and it seemed that a lot of people have very personal investments, but it seems to have calmed down a bit so I'll jump in.

 

I find her leaving totally plausible and something we could even have anticipated on some level. Caroline is not an entirely emotionally well person. 

 

The hormonal changes that come along with pregnancy do, in a very very real way, trigger a statistically measurable number of mental breaks and psychotic episodes.

 

I think it's a way for Leah to explore this uncomfortable topic for us. None of these girls are particularly good or lovable people. But they're realistic in their own way.  Not every person with bi polar is like the female character in Silver Lining Playbook. A lot of them can seem like the worst kind of selfish assholes.  I have stories...fucked up, somewhat scary stories, but too off topic to share here. 

 

It happens to people you wouldn't expect. And to people you would suspect. It happens and it's plausible. Being mentally ill isn't selfish anymore than being an addict is selfish - I guess it is and it isn't but it's something that's so hard to exert personal control and will over, it's complicated.

[scrb]

Ray isn't a hipster.  In fact he couldn't stand Desi because he was an eyeliner-wearing hipster.

 

But aren't most of the rest hipsters?

[27bored]

It's not as simple as "she is a piece of shit for leaving." Attitudes are so harsh especially towards mothers with mental health issues that people do truly believe it'd be better for others if they were dead or gone. Calling that deluded and distorted and even immoral in some way, sure, but totally selfish, no. That's a reductive way to look at it.

 

I...don't think that's entirely fair. I understand what you're saying, and I can see why some of my statements may have given the impression that I have a harsh attitude towards mental illness. It's slightly more nuanced than that. For one thing, it's very difficult to convince someone that they have a mental illness. It takes some degree or self-awareness and introspection to say, "I think there's something wrong". People are very good at rationalizing their own actions and creating convenient excuses to avoid owning their problems.

 

With Caroline and Laird, from what little we've seen of them, Laird seemed patient and caring while she was pregnant and was that way earlier in the season, if not a little henpecked. I didn't get the impression that he was just being impossible and couldn't understand what she was going through. I got the feeling she probably didn't give him much of a chance to understand, which isn't really fair to him, because it makes it seem as though his efforts to accommodate her while she got acclimated to motherhood were in vain, and they sort of were if she bailed on him anyway.

 

If people have harsh attitudes about mental illness, it's because they're reacting to behavior that might be caused by said illness. If a husband pulls away because his wife seems moody and irritable and like he's always messing something up, that's all he knows. He might deal with it better if he knows she has some issue that she's working through, and will give her the benefit of the doubt, but before that's established, all he knows is his wife is moody and irritable all the time, and it doesn't feel good to be around her. The impetus for the wife may not be her own discontentment with her mood, but also the effects it has on her relationship. If she decides her only two options are to remain and continue being hostile to her spouse or just take off, it might seem to like a kindness because she's no longer mistreating her spouse, if we're going to put a sunny spin on it. But it's also her opting out of confronting the mess she's made and contributed to in her relationship and trying to clean it up because it's easier to leave. This analogy can and does cut both ways.

[ReadMeLattice]

Sure, but in this case we're dealing with life or death. It's not a divorce, it's a baby who could be hurt and a suicidal mother. At that point, the stakes are different. In that case it's not about easier or harder. The "easier" way out would have been to merely disappear, not confess to suicidal and homicidal intentions. That's not easier at all.

I disagree with the blanket statement that attitudes about mental health issues are because of related behaviors. Mental illnesses are medical problems and disabilities that are not commonly understood. Many people don't understand Down's syndrome, for example, and have historically assumed certain things about people who have it. This is partly due to a history of institutionalization, pseudo/junk science, and past treatments and diagnoses. So no, people's current misconceptions about Down's syndrome aren't 100% due to how people with the syndrome actually behave and think and form relationships. Likewise, the stigma and attitudes surrounding mental health reflect not only the reality of people with mental illnesses and how they treat others, but also the overlapping histories of misogyny and hysteria, institutionalization and isolation, overmedication, psychoanalysis, and the emergence of the biomedical model of mental health. These histories inform all sorts of public assumptions, media portrayals, and misconceptions about what constitutes mental illness, what it looks like and what it means. It's too simple to say "people have those attitudes about mentally ill people because of what they do." That's like saying that the assumptions about certain racial groups are generally due to real experiences people have had with those racial groups.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Lm2162

[Hecate7]

More observations:

 

Re Shoshanna, I thought that she was shitty to both Scott & Yoshi and Scott was right to read her for applying for welfare while she was in a sushi bar. Shosh's returning to NYC was just as impulsive to me as her choosing to stay in Japan. The more Shosh got carried away with the novelty of being in Japan, the harder the reality (aka homesickness) kicked her ass, making both Scott and cute, sweet Yoshi collateral damage in the process. However, if Shosh helps Ray's business and drives those pretentious, hipster assholes out of town-or at least, off the block-that would be a big step in the right direction, proving that her trip to Japan did her some good after all.

 

I think the writers are so confused about how food stamps and welfare work, they should never have even mentioned either one. Shosh talked about going on Food Stamps, but she was eating at a sushi bar. Restaurants do not take food stamps. It's a law. But Scott talked as if she were using food stamps AT the sushi bar, which I don't think she could have been. She didn't mention welfare cash assistance, but I don't think she could possibly have qualified. She's single with no kids. Even if you are unemployed and have zero income, usually you can't get cash assistance unless you have kids.

[Hecate7]

 Fathers do it all the time without theorizing that they might be suffering from some undiagnosed mental illness.There's no need to pathologize it. She wanted out, so she left.

 

 

Usually they don't leave suicide notes, though. Caroline did. And in her note she said she was having thoughts of hurting her baby and killing herself. THAT is textbook PPD. That she's been gone 3 days means either she's hospitalized, or she's dead. The longer she's missing the greater the likelihood that she is dead.

 

And although it is selfish and irresponsible to "create a crisis" in everyone else's life, Caroline's note made it very obvious that she didn't think it would be a crisis at all. She thought Laird and Sample would go on without her like usual only better. She didn't anticipate Laird also walking out, or Adam having to come, or being as stressed as he is now by the whole thing. Caroline most likely thinks Adam barely knows she's alive and would have no reaction at all to her disappearance, that the baby is too little to really remember her or notice that she's gone as long as she's fed, and that Laird would be happier without her. Most likely she'll have been caught trying to jump off a bridge or OD on something, arrested, and then hospitalized, and Adam will get a call in a day or two. Or, Adam will start calling hospitals and police stations and finally get somewhere.

 

Fathers who leave are usually freaked out because 1) they didn't have a father themselves, 2) the whole baby and pregnancy thing leaves them feeling redundant and out of place, and 3) another woman came along and they just want to be free to pursue whatever woman crosses their path. That almost never happens with mothers, because motherhood is something that happened in their own bodies, not in their partner's body. They don't feel displaced or replaced by that baby the way fathers often do.

 

I think Caroline's actual, real crisis is meant to contrast with Hannah's completely manufactured, utterly ridiculous behavior.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Hecate7

[SomePity1066]

I think Caroline's actual, real crisis is meant to contrast with Hannah's completely manufactured, utterly ridiculous behavior.

If that's the case, Hecate7 (and I think that's a great observation/hypothesis, BTW !) then it explains why the plot unfolded the way it did in the episode and goes a long way toward some kind of reasoning behind Dunham's motivation for making the characters, especially Hannah, the way they are. 

 

Still leaves me absolutely reeling, though, as to why Dunham still continues to proffer her chirpy taking head on the Inside the Episode actually defending what Hannah does and why. Living her truth, finding her voice, being her best self, expressing her heart, choosing her choices, blah freaking blah - that happy clap-trap bullshit of misguided feminism and entitled hipster shenanigans makes my blood boil. Since Dunham isn't/hasn't yet explained that she finds what Hannah does as repulsive as we do then I have no choice to conclude that she's just FINE with it.

 

She may actually think that she's created some kind of charming, emblematic TV heroine here, like Carrie Bradshaw or Rachel Green, but, in reality, she's made a character with no character. Someone needs to tell her that if you're going to create a TV persona with no discernible redeeming qualities, like Larry David, you have to at least make them funny or interesting, which Larry David was, and Dunham's Hannah is neither. 

[WhosThatGirl]

Above post, yes, everything. My feeling though is that lately, Lena doesn't have an actual point to Hannah's behavior, at times it now seems like she's just being shocking to be shocking. How far can Hannah's behavior go?

 

Also, currently this episode is airing and we are at the breakup scene and yes, I'm still curious as to Fran's anger issues. After they broke up, he was going to give her a ride back home! And then when she couldn't get back in the house car- her words- he got mad and called her out on her behavior.  Yes, Fran has many anger issues, you guys. 

[ReadMeLattice]

And all he said was a couple "fuck you's" and that she was rude as he drove away. Didn't prolong the confrontation, didn't call her names...I'd forgive someone for much more than that even if they were just grumpy and had no real reason.

I did think the character was strangely and unevenly written. A guy who is vehemently against any kind of porn and is highly worried about what's appropriate and a tad jealous masturbates to an entire album of naked ex girlfriend photos and doesn't see anything off about it? A guy who seems very willing to put up with and forgive Hannah's crap literally rips her own student's paper out of her hand over a couple of grammar mistakes? Every week I was unsure as to what we were supposed to think about Fran.

[27bored]

Usually they don't leave suicide notes, though. Caroline did. And in her note she said she was having thoughts of hurting her baby and killing herself. THAT is textbook PPD. That she's been gone 3 days means either she's hospitalized, or she's dead. The longer she's missing the greater the likelihood that she is dead.

 

To be honest, I didn't take her letter to be a suicide note. I know what it said, but I thought that was more "Sometimes I have these horrible thoughts and I think it's better if I leave because I'm freaked out by them" than "I'm off to fling myself off the Brooklyn bridge". Her letter was still unsettling, but after having watched the episode twice, it seemed to me that she was having the conversation she should've had in person with Laird. I could very well be wrong, but that's the impression I got.

 

Fathers who leave are usually freaked out because 1) they didn't have a father themselves, 2) the whole baby and pregnancy thing leaves them feeling redundant and out of place, and 3) another woman came along and they just want to be free to pursue whatever woman crosses their path. That almost never happens with mothers, because motherhood is something that happened in their own bodies, not in their partner's body. They don't feel displaced or replaced by that baby the way fathers often do.

 

Be that as it may, my point is, people bail out on their situation all the time without something being clinically wrong. Irrespective of the rationale, it happens. In a different context, wouldn't it be a little condescending, you know, the whole "if a guy is emotional, he's tough; if a woman is emotional, she's fragile" thing.

 

That's like saying that the assumptions about certain racial groups are generally due to real experiences people have had with those racial groups.

 

I don't think this is true. Diagnosing mental illness isn't just about certain thoughts or feelings; it's also about studying actions, or to put it a different way, how mental illness manifests itself. There is no "manifestation" of race through actions, certain stereotypes aside. What I was saying is people might not be as sensitive to mental illness because they're reacting to the way it sometimes manifests itself, which is completely natural because mental illness intrinsically is a covert premise, not an overt one like race. If a new mom is irritable with her spouse, it could be PPD, it could just be a Saturday.

[ReadMeLattice]

I feel her note was very clearly meant to be read as a suicide note.

Mental illness is diagnosed by professionals. If someone thinks someone has PPD because they're merely "irritable," that's their own problem.

I think it's analagous because people do has misconceptions about exactly how race "manifests" in behavior, and they also have misconceptions about how mental illness "manifests."

Edited April 17, 2016 by Lm2162

[WhosThatGirl]

I mean, it's no surprise Carolina has PPD, she already had depression. Her first episode on this show she was a very erratic personality and I believe she injured herself at the end of the episode. Hannah and Adam came home from Hannah's birthday and went into the bathroom and Carolina was in there holding a broken glass and bleeding, it was never clear if she did it on purpose but I feel like the show might have been implying that she did it herself. So, it makes sense to me. 

[Evangeline]

I just remembered Hannah's Basic Instinct moment. So that's three bizarre sexual acting out events towards the end of this season. Girl on girl. Flashing her instructor and apparently not wearing underwear at work. The Ray bj.

 

Dunham is definitely going to have all that mean something.

 

My immediate reaction was that it came across like Hannah had serious issues herself, like she had been sexually molested as a child or something (based on what I've learned from 17 seasons of SVU...).  All three incidents seemed out of character for her.

 

I was less shocked that he didn't stop her.  I must admit I've never tested this assumption, but from my admittedly pretty limited and largely stereotype-based knowledge of men, if you assume he's not dating anyone and hasn't since Marnie, I would assume it wouldn't be that uncommon for a guy to have a "just go with it" attitude to a free, no strings attached blow job.  Stopping driving would have been smart, but he probably viewed that as more active acceptance of it rather than passive acceptance.  (And are blow jobs while driving really so common? I feel like it comes up on TV/film a lot -- this is the 3rd scene I can think of off the top of my head, I'm sure there are more.  4th if you include the declined one in Bridesmaids.  I really can't imagine wanting to offer to do that, for multiple reasons.)

 

I think Hannah had just as much reason to break up with Fran as he did with her. I never forgave him for the naked girls on his phone, I thought that was offensive to both Hannah and his ex-girlfriends.  And I haven't liked how he's spoken to her for much of this season.  I get the pajamas, that's something I'd do. But I relate to Hannah way more than I should admit to.  

 

Also, I was so impressed with Dunham's acting the prior episode at the end when she saw Adam with Jessa, totally broke my heart and I understood her emotions there. Even if Adam and Jessa are not doing anything wrong by being together (and I tend to agree with that), that doesn't mean it's not painful and upsetting to Hannah.  Emotions like that aren't based on reason.  

 

Oh and I loved Adam's "You're an adult"/"Why do you need more help than a baby" line too.  I've always liked Jessa in a can't-relate-to-her-at-all kind of way.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Evangeline

[Evangeline]

I had to question myself when Hannah said a hand on her head is a trigger. 

 

I'm with Hannah on that one, can't stand it. 

 

She should get her hymen put back in surgically and go back to Yoshi. She liked it better in Japan and if she gets the surgery she'll be telling the truth. 

I really don't think it works that way. 

 

I laughed at the welfare + omakase comment.  I took it to mean that Shosh was just looking into her options and naively assumed that if she couldn't get a jobs she wanted and therefore had no income, welfare would be an option for her. And her ex just gave her a reality check. 

 

I think Hannah's decisions (unless they actually go with a mental illness story line) reflect on Dunham because they're so off the wall and unrealistic to the point of being a distraction to the story. It's bad writing because it's not achieving what Dunham wants to achieve with those scenes.  And it's a little scary that Dunham doesn't get that. I remember going to the PaleyFest last year for this show with the cast, and Dunham told a story that had a bit of a WTF element to it that Lena clearly didn't get, and everyone else on stage was like "umm...." 

[Clanstarling]

It is disturbing to hear that Lena is so clueless when she talks about the show. More so that it doesn't seem to be the standard showrunner type of clueless, but rather a societal deafness (I'm not talking about political correctness). Which seems at odds with the fact that she can be a sharp observer of behavior.

It wouldn't be the first time a person is driven to creativity due to serious personal issues which manifest themselves in their work. Or that the person is blind to how the issues impact their work.

As to whether BJs while driving happen outside of TV - I know one couple who did - there was mutual consent, but he had the sense to pull over. Not me, though, I would never do it, because I'm obsessed with driving safety - both as a driver and passenger. Plus, it's a hell of an awkward position.

Edited April 17, 2016 by clanstarling

[ReadMeLattice]

Yeah, I'd break up with someone if they had a folder of ex girlfriend photos they masturbated with, too, honestly. That's creepy to the exes as well the current girlfriend. His ideas on porn were also pretty ridiculous...there's a lot of feminist, amateur, and/or queer porn out there. It's definitely not all human trafficking, drug addiction, and rampant abuse. Some strange ideas he's got.

However, I definitely don't think he had anger issues, nor did Hannah's behavior make any sense at all. I really wonder when Dunham is going with the character.

[DollEyes]

Diane Dobbler:  Re Ray Vs. the Hipsters, while it's true that there are lots of hipster businesses in NYC (especially in Brooklyn), my problem with the one across the street from Ray's is that it's not only threatening his business, based on what I've seen of the two people who work there, they epitomize much, if not all, of the hipster stereotypes that I (and Ray) hate the most.