S04.E02: Pastor Tim

[RedHawk]

I was confused by the pilot...an American working for the Russians? I don't think Aeroflot had any landing rights in the US at the time, though I could be wrong.

And boy did he look like an unreliable guy...nervous and unwilling. And Philip let him walk away alive?

The pilot confused me until I saw him listed in the credits as "Czech pilot". So he was not doing a job out of loyalty to the cause and Mother Russia, he was being coerced in some way.

[benteen]

Philip looked insane choking that guy out to Tainted Love.  I'll never think of that song otherwise again.

 

Another really good episode.  This show is off to a great start already.  I enjoyed Elizabeth's scene with Paige but typically short-sighted Elizabeth.  How does she not think that Paige won't suspect her and Philip if Pastor Tim suddenly dies?

[topanga]

 

Elizabeth's nightmare made my heart stop for a second -- yikes!

Yes, that scene freaked me out. First the dead Pastor Tim--great makeup and acting, Paige's scream, and then Pastor Tim becoming the Soviet trainer who raped Elizabeth. I find it interesting that Philip and Elizabeth are both starting to have nightmares about the brutal things they've done--or might have to do in the future.

 

Great episode.

 

It could simply mean that Elizabeth hadn't dared to hope her stoic mother would send a message like that, that's all.

 

This is what I want to believe. Children know their mothers. Even if they haven't seen each other in 20 years or never had a warm-and-fuzzy relationship, I would think Elizabeth would still be able to detect her mother's mannerisms, manner of speaking, etc. I remember being a young child and knowing my mother was nearby because her voice sounded like no one else's in the world, and her clothes had a lotiony-perfum-ey smell. And before you get the wrong idea, my mother and I have never been close. But I still knew her. Babies knowing their mothers a primitive survival instinct. 

[Knuckles]

Nina is interesting...her gambit for Anton failed, and almost certainly put her husband in danger, but she is not visibly frightened...which confused the station chief.

She answers only that she is in a different state of mind...that's some change, with the prospect of life in a gulag, or worse possibly in her future.

[Chaos Theory]

To kill Pastor Tim or to not kill Pastor Tim. That is the question.

You know for an episode called "Pastor Tim" there was like maybe five seconds of Pastir Tim sightage. I know the episode was all about him but I thought that was funny.

I think Nina self sabotaged herself. She was sent to wherever the hell that place is to spy on and inform of the scientist guy and he gave her info namely that his research hit a brick wall. This was enough to get her out from under the KGB but instead she concocted a plan to get a message to the guys son that was certainly going to get found out. It wouldn't surprise me at all if that was her intention from the start. It looks like she made sure she was the only one clearly culpable. It also wouldn't surprise me if the guy who turned her in was KGB and everyone knew it. It would be an interesting development if this is where and how Nina's story finally ends.

[attica]

So how many men are pining over Nina now?

 

You could add a couple of my male friends to your count...

 

I think Matthew Rhys negotiated fewer wigs into his contract this year. 

 

What job is it that the guy had that Philip offed? He's paid to watch over sketchy pilots? Is that an airport thing or an FAA thing?

[sistermagpie]

As I said above though, the "stakes" are, Elizabeth adores Gabriel, and if she suspects he's playing her, and most of all, played her at THAT?  More reason to bag the spy game altogether, and perhaps to understand it's all lies, and Philip is right about dear old Gabe.

 

 

Right, I'm agreeing with that. I just think the important thing is the doubt, which comes more from Elizabeth's own changing feelings about Gabriel and her mother than a plot twist like Elizabeth saying, "You really thought I believed that was my mother? I was acting that whole time with her and Paige. And didn't even tell Philip." The drama comes from Elizabeth never really being able to trust anything in her life more than whether or not the woman she saw in Germany was an actor or her real mother. It's that if she starts doubting, the doubts can apply to any and all things. Plus she's not just doubting Gabriel but re-thinking her whole relationship with her mother.

 

If Elizabeth herself says, like to Philip, "Maybe that woman wasn't my mom" that's a big thing because she's doubting the Centre and admitting they manipulate her emotionally, particularly through her mother. If Gabriel comes out and says, "She's still alive" then he's tipping his hand that the Centre is manipulating her. It's basically the same story as Mischa Jr. But I think it would be done the same way--not with us seeing for sure that Elizabeth was faking the emotion about her mother or the Centre discussing hiring an actress to be her mother, but just through Elizabeth doubting.

 

Her nightmare, I think, is also a big sign that she's doubting. She's dreaming about how it would hurt Paige to kill Pastor Tim and linking that to the betrayal she felt when people she trusted gave her to Timoshev (and admitting that she'd be doing something similar in bringing Paige into the business). It was interesting that at first Elizabeth thought she could kill Pastor Tim without Paige ever suspecting. She was basically acting out the same way Paige did in the first place, doing what she needed for her own emotional comfort and just telling herself nobody would ever know.

 

And, minutes later, bereft Elizabeth's gotta go...work calls, dead mother be damned.

 

 

I don't think that makes it fake. She's never had a life where her emotions take precedence over what must be done. Lots of people work and grieve at the same time--and Elizabeth's grieving a woman she hasn't had in her life for 20 years.

 

 Of course there are times where she makes special justifications for her emotions being more important. She's like Paige--both of them are usually always going to sure that their choices were justified. That's more how they judge ethics, rather than thinking about other people's feelings. (Not that they never are affected by other peoples' feelings.)

 

I dunno, this all sounds like the sort of convoluted, intrigue for intrigue's sake revelation that the series usually takes great care to avoid.

 

 

That's more where I'm coming from on the fake mom issue. We're not privy to what the Centre is doing on that level. To see all this happening we'd be in Russia with KGB higher-ups who have always been shadows until now. We already know we can't 100% trust that anything they say or do is real (we've got that established with Irina and Mischa Jr.).

 

I did feel a little bit bad for Stan when he offered condolences on the other guy's brother being killed in combat and the only response he got was, "So we're friends now?" You don't have to be friends in order to feel bad that someone's family member died, dude!

 

 

He knew Stan was trying to manipulate him. Stan doesn't care about his brother, he just got that personal info and tried to use it to get power over Oleg. Instead of blackmail, he's going to pretend to be friends. Interesting since Stan's making a point of not being friends with Philip. The one real friendship he went for was Henry, a friendship that's unequal.

 

Way to get that guy killed, chicken-shit courier pilot.

 

 

Thinking back on it, it was an interesting parallel to the Paige plot. There, too, she basically couldn't handle the pressure (pressure that was unexpectedly dropped on her in her case, though) and now things are going to happen to other people. With Paige we can sympathize with her because we know the situation--though I do still find her confidence about trusting PT and her self-righteousness frustrating. She's right that Elizabeth put her in a terrible position, but she's also put Elizabeth's life in danger.

 

"Make up with your boyfriend yet?" I love when Elizabeth is snarky.

 

 

And Philip didn't even get it at first because he was so in his own world. Elizabeth is the one who makes the jokes now.

 

What job is it that the guy had that Philip offed? He's paid to watch over sketchy pilots? Is that an airport thing or an FAA thing?

 

 

I think airport security.

[shura]

And boy did he look like an unreliable guy...nervous and unwilling.  And Philip let him walk away alive? There's a surprise.

 

The pilot confused me until I saw him listed in the credits as "Czech pilot". So he was not doing a job out of loyalty to the cause and Mother Russia, he was being coerced in some way.

 

I was thinking how unreliable a method the KGB was using there to transport things secretly across borders. Why not hand it over (through intermediaries, of course) to the Rezidentura people so they could send it in diplomatic mail? A less than willing courier like that pilot can crack at any moment and either go to the authorities or simply drop whatever he is asked to carry into the trash. Whatever they are using to coerce him only works until it doesn't.

 

I did like how his leaving the tin on the bus seat was an act of defiance. He didn't have to leave it for Philip to find, but he chose to basically tell him "screw you", knowing full well that he is toast as soon as he gets back to Prague, unless he made a decision to never return back home. Either way, it's probably not good for his family if he has one.

 

Also interesting how we had two failed attempts to smuggle things across the Iron Curtain in this episode. I kind of like the idea that Nina failed on purpose (although I am not sure why she'd do that), but she must have known that she is putting her husband on the chopping block with this. I am not sure she'd do that to him. They really seemed like good friends in their meeting, people who really care about one another. I don't know who is writing Russian dialogue on this show, but it was phenomenal, very natural. Both actors were great there.

[Dev F]

As for the tapes?  I don't know how long she was getting them, or how often, or what the quality was, but yes, that could have been faked too.  Maybe she missed religion or became disenchanted with the communist dream because there was never any food, or she slipped and fell cracking her head open years ago, and died, but they didn't want Elizabeth to ask to come to her funeral,.  The tapes could have been made before she was tortured to death for all I know, and doled out over the years, in case they ever needed a threat to keep Elizabeth in line.

 

But, again, that seems like a risk far out of proportion to the reward. Elizabeth has always been unswervingly loyal to the cause, so even if she got homesick and/or felt suffocated by her unhappy home life -- which I assume is what happened at some point, prompting the Centre to start shipping her the tapes -- it beggars credulity that the solution to that problem would be to construct an elaborate fake mom conspiracy. If the mom isn't available for whatever reason, you just find another way to make her feel better that isn't liable to cause your most devoted illegal agent to flip out and turn on you.

 

What's more, the tapes are filled with all sorts of personal information: what her mom thought of her brother Anatoli growing up; what rituals little Elizabeth used to go through waiting for her mom to come home from work. That sort of information is impossible to fabricate, so it's not like the KGB could've just written its own script for a fake mom to read. And it's also impossible to verify, so it's not like the Centre could've tortured real mom and forced her to either record those recollections herself or hand them over to the KGB for an actress to record. All she has to do is say, "Oh, Elizabeth, I remember you standing right by the door every day waiting for me to come home from work" when her daughter actually always sat waiting in her chair, and Elizabeth knows that she's under duress.

 

As for why bring in a fake mom IF her real mom was alive, lots of possible plausible reasons, including the real mom being in a Gulag somewhere, or that they didn't feel she was trustworthy enough to speak with their primo embedded spy, etc.  It could have been as simple as wanting Elizabeth to get back to the USA ASAP, or there were border issues at the moment, so they used a Russian speaking/ancestry West German woman loyal to them, so they wouldn't have to risk bringing a Russian over.

 

Then they have no reason to risk it at all. It's not like Elizabeth was expecting them to bring her mother across the border to meet them; she was assuming that she and Paige would be smuggled into the Eastern Bloc. And if the woman on the tape was real mom, which as I mentioned above, I think she has to be, it'd be incredibly foolhardy to try to convince her that her mom is this other person whose voice doesn't match the one she was intently listening to just days before.

 

Again, it's an Alias-style secret double gambit when no gambit at all is required -- just tell Elizabeth that her mother died before she got there, and they incur no risk at all.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Dev F

[Chaos Theory]

I think Elizabeth, Gabriele and her mother was less a manipulation thing and more an EST thing. I think Gabriele was actually trying to be kind. "Your mother said she loved you" but this is not the mother Elizabeth remember's. I doubt the woman ever used those words which explains Elizabeth's relationship with Paige. The "Does she?" Was her questioning if her mother actually did love her. The mother who sent her away without question to an unknown country and an unknown fate.

[Penman61]

Wait, are we seriously speculating that Elizabeth's mom in Germany was a fake mom?  How would Elizabeth not know it was a fake?  And if she did know, why would should not let on ever at all?

 

Gabriel's computer gift isn't specially-equipped spy computer (or possibly bugged), is it?  It's just a perk Gabriel gave to the family, right?

 

The tension this show builds is almost unbearable.  

[izabella]

I don't believe her mom was fake.  Nadezhda would know her mother's eyes and voice and touch, even if it was "different' due to aging and illness.  No way super spy who can remember many minute details of many complicated plots and secrets would forget the face of the woman she saw every day of her life before she handed her over to the KGB. 

 

Elizabeth instantly questioned Gabriel when he said that her mom said she loved her and Paige, because Elizabeth knows her mom and knows that is not her way.  She would have also instantly questioned a fake mom. 

[Chaos Theory]

wow it really is the 80s. We are looking behind every corner for spies and there are Commies everywhere. I think Pastor Tim is exactly what he appears to be which is why he is so gosh darn suspicious. An act of kindness by Gabriele by maybe fudging her mother's last words has everyone seeing ghost agents. Although the the computer is mighty suspect but even that could be a gift from a friend. In the end the computer is the only thing the Jennings need to really worry about. Pastor Tim at best is an inconvenience. They can't live with him and apparently they can't kill him.

[PinkRibbons]

Would anyone mind taking the Elizabeth's Mom debate to the Elizabeth thread? It's been spanning two episodes now.

[Tetraneutron]

I agree. It makes no sense for the mom Elizabeth and Paige saw in Germany to be fake. It was such a huge perk for Elizabeth to even see her; there would be no point to it. We've seen the spycraft on this show be pretty simple. That would be way too elaborate for something that pointless.

 

I do think it's possible that Gabriel lied about a deathbed declaration of love (as Elizabeth suspected) just as he may have lied before about Elizabeth's mother being taken care of. That's the kind of lie they'd tell to engender loyalty.

 

Ever since Pastor Tim appeared on this show, I've thought he was KGB and grooming Paige is his mission.

 

Actually he could be grooming a lot of impressionable young kids, but Paige will be the jewel in the KGB's crown.

It wouldn't make sense and it would be a huge narrative cheat. So Pastor Tim is a secret KGB agent grooming tons of impressionable kids and their whole families in this neighborhood church in suburban DC? Paige isn't his only congregant. He has a whole community. Besides, Claudia said Philip and Elizabeth need to start grooming Paige. If the Russians were already taking care of that via a deep-cover pastor, wouldn't she have told them. I know they've established with the Rezidentura that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, but that's ridiculous.

 

Having Tim be a KGB agent would take all the drama out of the situation. Right now Tim represents the trust and morality and all-American-ness that Paige isn't getting at home. If it turned out he's betraying her, then her parents stop being the bad guys who want to put Paige in a horrible situation where she'll possibly be raped. Philip and Elizabeth look like better people by default, meaning there's less drama about whether Paige starts being loyal to their cause and comfortable with that they do.

[shura]

Having Tim be a KGB agent would take all the drama out of the situation. Right now Tim represents the trust and morality and all-American-ness that Paige isn't getting at home. If it turned out he's betraying her, then her parents stop being the bad guys who want to put Paige in a horrible situation where she'll possibly be raped. Philip and Elizabeth look like better people by default, meaning there's less drama about whether Paige starts being loyal to their cause and comfortable with that they do.

 

Oooh, there's their way out. Kill him, but make it look like he was a KGB agent. Plant some things for Paige to find or frame him some other way. I'm sure the KGB can think of something.

[izabella]

t wouldn't make sense and it would be a huge narrative cheat. So Pastor Tim is a secret KGB agent grooming tons of impressionable kids and their whole families in this neighborhood church in suburban DC? Paige isn't his only congregant. He has a whole community. Besides, Claudia said Philip and Elizabeth need to start grooming Paige. If the Russians were already taking care of that via a deep-cover pastor, wouldn't she have told them. I know they've established with the Rezidentura that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, but that's ridiculous.

 

And of course, Gabriel would know if Pastor Tim is a spy.  The minute that Elizabeth told him that Paige had told their secrets to the Pastor and he'd have to be killed, Gabriel would say, um, no, he's your colleague.

[sistermagpie]

I was thinking about how, on the other side of American values, Henry has always and continues to be associated with consumerism. He broke into the house to play the video game he wanted, was disappointed when his parents got him a telescope instead of intellivision. Stan's relationship with him started because Stan showed up with material goods that Matthew was uninterested in (Matthew wanting him to be present as a father and stop cheating on his mother instead)--bootleg tapes nobody else could get, games. 

 

Here Stan correctly notices (as he he could ever not) that Henry's wearing cologne, Henry gives him the brand name and sugar daddy Stan offers to give him a whole bottle of it. Henry in the same scene casually mentions that his parents have given him a new computer and Stan should come see it. Almost as if again there's competing bribery going on here--Henry's just taking whatever he's given. Of course there's also the implication of material goods substituting for attention since Henry's parents are so focused on Paige and other things, but for all the claims that Henry's just pining away for attention he's more often than not shown withdrawing in pursuit of this sort of thing himself. He rejected a conversation with Philip to break into the house with the Intellevision and ignores everything but his videogame.

[Trillian]

I'm inclined to think that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and a mom is just a mom.  I know of a real life situation where  the priest at a woman's funeral told her children that she had said she loved them and was sorry she was so hard on them for years.  The kids and their cousins then had a discussion at the wake about whether it was the priest who made that up or whether she had lied to the priest.  She wasn't abusive or neglectful - an outsider would have considered her a model mother - but her family found it hard to believe she had said that.  So Elizabeth's incredulity rang true to me.

 

Elizabeth's mom comes across as a hard woman - no doubt made hard(er) by the difficult times in which she lived.  There are hints that she was a true believer in the Soviet cause who was deeply ashamed of her deserter husband and who, without hesitation, gave her 16 year old daughter for The Cause. She was trusted enough to be allowed to send tapes to her daughter and to see pictures of her daughter's family.  I do believe Gabriel's stories of seeing her and taking care of her - it's consistent with being allowed the limited but risky contact with her daughter -  she was probably given extra privileges and was honoured as the mother of this very special KGB operative  But, the price of that was the sacrifice of her daughter, both in the life she was sending her daughter to lead and the fact that that life effectively severed their relationship.  Elizabeth is being faced with that same choice now:  does she sacrifice Paige to the Cause in a similar way?  Does she kill Paige's trusted friend, as her mission presumably requires, even though it will cause irreparable harm to her and Paige's relationship?  Does she, in other words, make the same choice her mother made about her?

 

I found it ironic that Elizabeth burst out to Paige that she should have put her family first instead of telling Pastor Tim.  What Elizabeth is asking Paige to do is the exact opposite of putting her family and familial relationships first.  It is, of course, putting the Cause first, and it's a cause to which Paige has no allegiance.  I think Philip sees this, but that Elizabeth is only subconsciously starting to see/feel that disconnect as deals with her own conflicted feelings about her mother.

[izabella]

Paige is Elizabeth's big blind spot.  Elizabeth doesn't seem to get that Paige in no way will ever, EVER, feel the same burning dedication to the Russian cause that Elizabeth seems to feel.  Thus, nothing Paige does makes any logical sense to her.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Philip's Kill List Keeps Getting Longer On The Americans
Even his own wife is loading him up with more potential victims? This 'travel agent' needs to book himself a vacation!

[sistermagpie]

Elizabeth doesn't seem to get that Paige in no way will ever, EVER, feel the same burning dedication to the Russian cause that Elizabeth seems to feel.  Thus, nothing Paige does makes any logical sense to her.

 

 

I don't know if she doesn't get it...I mean, when she said she wanted her to put the family first she *did* mean the family because Paige telling Pastor Tim could quite easily get her and Philip killed, deported or jailed. She knows Paige has no allegiance to what they do, but I think Paige's betraying her maybe has something in common with how her own mother, too, didn't put her first.

 

It's complicated, of course, because there's different ways the players line up. Elizabeth wanting to bring Paige in is like her mother, giving her this terrible life. Paige telling Pastor Tim is also a parallel to Elizabeth telling her own mother about her recruitment when the KGB told her not to do that. When Elizabeth told her mother all she got was the choice taken away--her mother told her she had to go. Paige has a much softer confidante who may nevertheless also be encouraging Paige to tell her mother to go by turning her in.

 

I really do think that while Elizabeth professes loyalty to the cause above all else what she feels more keenly is people caring about her. At this point Philip is potentially the only person she truly feels cares that much about her, despite their differences.

[tennisgurl]

Another great episode, and even though not a lot seemed to happen plot wise, I think a whole lot of character stuff was being set up. 

 

I really should be annoyed we keep cutting back to Nina, and away from the main plot, but I am actually really interested in seeing where her plot is going. To me, it seemed like she was being honest about wanting to help the scientist, it didn't seem like she had a hidden agenda. But who knows on this show. I liked the scene with her husband, its about as light and cheerful as Nina has ever gotten, and it does not seem like she would ave wanted to get the poor guy in trouble for some plot. He is probably in big trouble now, poor guy. I thought he actually had a lot more chemistry with Nina just talking then she ever did having sex with Stan. 

 

I will never listen to Tainted Love the same way ever again. That scene was super intense, with the music and the action and the acting, just really well put together. I really want this show to put out a soundtrack one day, I have been in love with its music since Harden My Heart in the pilot. 

 

Philip and Elizabeth seem to be doing a lot better this episode, actually communicating and being there for each other. I thought it was really sweet that Elizabeth offered to go to a session with Philip. I still do not see them riding off into the sunset happily ever after, but its nice to see moments when they are actually working well together. 

Edited March 24, 2016 by tennisgurl

[SlackerInc]

Ever since Pastor Tim appeared on this show, I've thought he was KGB and grooming Paige is his mission.

 

Actually he could be grooming a lot of impressionable young kids, but Paige will be the jewel in the KGB's crown.

 

That wouldn't make sense.  But then, Jared killing his parents didn't make sense either.  Other than that, though, this show has been better than that.

 

Can someone refresh my memory? What happened to the teenaged girl that Philip was working last year. That storyline wasn't resolved, right?

 

It was back-burnered.  He convinced her to keep it platonic.  We may or may not see her again.

 

William is not just an asset but an illegal, right? I assume part of the reason he has such a weird affect is that, like Elizabeth, he's never fully assimilated culturally.

 

Gabriel mentioned last episode that William "had a partner, but it didn't work out." I wonder if he and Claudia were originally a Directorate S team.

 

They did seem to be indicating he was an illegal; but I thought the whole idea of the "second generation" like Paige was that they could stand up to a background check but the first generations could not.  So how could he be working in that kind of lab?

 

There were a fair number of home computers in 1983-84.  My first computer was an Apple IIe that my parents gave me for Christmas 1982.  A number of my friends also had home computers, including the Apple II/II+/IIe, Commodore 64, and the IBM PC.

 

 

Yes.  We first had a Commodore VIC-20, and then an IBM PC, by the date here.  And this was despite our family not even having a microwave, dishwasher, VCR, or color TV.

[crashdown]

I loved the "I told her to wait until her father gets home" line.  Hee!  Elizabeth cracking a joke is always a treat!

[scowl]

Glad to see Phillip is back to leaving a trail of bodies for the Feds to find. That's what spying is all about.

[sistermagpie]

Glad to see Phillip is back to leaving a trail of bodies for the Feds to find. That's what spying is all about.

 

 

It's funny that Philip and Elizabeth are telling Paige as a lie that they just "get information from people" -- like they're basically pretending to be actual spies who do that instead of people who find it really hard to get through the day without killing somebody. 

 

I admit I actually laughed through the bus killing. It was just like a farce with the whole bus looking the other way while this guy's getting choked out behind them. It was like something out of airplane.

[Umbelina]

I was thinking how unreliable a method the KGB was using there to transport things secretly across borders. Why not hand it over (through intermediaries, of course) to the Rezidentura people so they could send it in diplomatic mail? A less than willing courier like that pilot can crack at any moment and either go to the authorities or simply drop whatever he is asked to carry into the trash. Whatever they are using to coerce him only works until it doesn't.

 

I did like how his leaving the tin on the bus seat was an act of defiance. He didn't have to leave it for Philip to find, but he chose to basically tell him "screw you", knowing full well that he is toast as soon as he gets back to Prague, unless he made a decision to never return back home. Either way, it's probably not good for his family if he has one.

 

Also interesting how we had two failed attempts to smuggle things across the Iron Curtain in this episode. I kind of like the idea that Nina failed on purpose (although I am not sure why she'd do that), but she must have known that she is putting her husband on the chopping block with this. I am not sure she'd do that to him. They really seemed like good friends in their meeting, people who really care about one another. I don't know who is writing Russian dialogue on this show, but it was phenomenal, very natural. Both actors were great there.

Using Airline pilots and flight attendants was actually a pretty common way to transport things, and they were targeted by both sides, well, lets say all sides, since of course the USA and USSR weren't the only two players in the spy games.   Bribery, blackmail, honey traps, whatever it took, I think in some cases agents actually went through the training and their embedded job for whatever agency was "flight attendant" and getting them on the right international flights wasn't that difficult, since they had other people willing to do little favors for cash or blackmail or cause, schedulers, or a sudden illness of someone who was supposed to be on a certain flight could easily be arranged.

 

Also, of course, many pilots were former military for their various countries, it's where they learned to fly the big planes, so they were often easily convinced to help their own governments with spy matters.

 

Good point about the diplomatic pouch though.  I don't know enough about those, but we've definitely seen human beings transported on ships, maybe Moscow wanted the vial fast?

 

Would anyone mind taking the Elizabeth's Mom debate to the Elizabeth thread? It's been spanning two episodes now.

It's being discussed because it's been in both episodes, actually in the last 3 if you count last season's finale.  Each time Elizabeth seems to be, at the very least, distracted by it, and in some opinions, doubting it.  Anyway, sooner or later we will know.  Could the writers be dropping all of these breadcrumbs that lead no where?  Sure they could, but it doesn't seem like their style.

 

And of course, Gabriel would know if Pastor Tim is a spy.  The minute that Elizabeth told him that Paige had told their secrets to the Pastor and he'd have to be killed, Gabriel would say, um, no, he's your colleague.

Yeah, and ditto on the FBI side, I've often thought that if Pastor Tim worked for either side, we'd already know it, because we do see those "sides" on screen.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Umbelina

[tennisgurl]

To me, the biggest shocker of the episode was the dream Elizabeth had, where Pastor Tim turned into the rapist and attacked Paige. That seems to say that maybe, just maybe, Elizabeth is having second thoughts about Paige joining the spy life. Maybe just subconsciously even, but its there.  

[Anela]

I don't have anything to add, really, except: how on earth is Nina too old to remarry? 

 

I hope that Elizabeth is having second thoughts about signing her daughter up for that life, and I liked Stan spending time with Henry. I missed the part with Nina's husband not getting away with smuggling something out for her. :( 

[Dev F]

It's being discussed because it's been in both episodes, actually in the last 3 if you count last season's finale.  Each time Elizabeth seems to be, at the very least, distracted by it, and in some opinions, doubting it.  Anyway, sooner or later we will know.  Could the writers be dropping all of these breadcrumbs that lead no where?  Sure they could, but it doesn't seem like their style.

 

I'm sure it's going to lead somewhere, I just don't think it's going to be some big plot-heavy thing like "What will happen when Elizabeth realizes that the Centre sent her a counterfeit mom?"

 

I expect the payoff to be much more character-based. I think her doubt is about the old woman she murdered last season, who surrounded herself with the ghosts of her past until they destroyed her. I think it's about how Elizabeth is reexamining her connection with her mother in light of her relationship with Paige.  And when Elizabeth asks Gabriel if her mother really told them to tell her and Paige she loved them, I think it's at least partially because she's starting to wonder whether her mother did love her -- if a woman who really cared about her only daughter would be able to give her up for the good of the cause.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Dev F

[TV Glotzer]

Ok, Show, I love you but as a DC resident your weird not-DC locations are buggin' me and the fact that it's March in the timeline but there are autumn leaves on the trees... sheesh.

And as a NYC native, I react the same way seeing New York locations portrayed as DC. In this episode the meeting between Philip and William took place outside the Queens Museum in Flushing Meadows-Corona Park. The meeting between Elizabeth and Gabriel was also in the same park, but they CGI'ed an image of the Washington Monument in the background.

Edited March 25, 2016 by TV Glotzer

[La Tortuga]

I just wanted to shine the spotlight on Philip's disguise (wild blondish hair and glasses) when he broke into Pastor Groovyhair's office. Anyone who happened to see him from far away might have actually mistaken him for Pastor Tim.

[Chaos Theory]

To me, the biggest shocker of the episode was the dream Elizabeth had, where Pastor Tim turned into the rapist and attacked Paige. That seems to say that maybe, just maybe, Elizabeth is having second thoughts about Paige joining the spy life. Maybe just subconsciously even, but its there.

I doubt it. Philip was talking to her earlier about EST and how it brings up unresolved issues from your past. Added to that her mother's death. I don't think there are two more unresolved issues in Elizabeth's life then her rape and her mother sending her away. I can see both morphing into a nightmare.

I don't think it will change anything though. Elizabeth is a good soldier.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[snakehissken]

I don't want to keep bringing this up, but I don't see how it could possibly be a fake mom. Sure, Elizabeth hasn't seen her in 25 years, but people are still recognizable as they age. The wrinkles don't transform the basic facial features. It would really turn me off the show if that was the case - I saw the season two twist coming and I still wasn't pleased when it actually happened. 

 

I think Elizabeth bringing up med school or law school for Paige showed that she really has a different vision of what Paige's spy life will be like. She thinks Paige is going to have a job like William's, or work as an aide to some ranking DC official. She won't be strangling people on the back of a bus. Maybe the dream was about her suppressed doubts that Paige would lead a safer life.

 

Philip wasn't wearing a disguise when he met William because he knew that it was safe - he said they were getting reliable surveillance reports. So Martha's continued bringing him stuff, and Philip trusts that she isn't going to turn on him.

[BW Manilowe]

Using Airline pilots and flight attendants was actually a pretty common way to transport things, and they were targeted by both sides, well, lets say all sides, since of course the USA and USSR weren't the only two players in the spy games. Bribery, blackmail, honey traps, whatever it took, I think in some cases agents actually went through the training and their embedded job for whatever agency was "flight attendant" and getting them on the right international flights wasn't that difficult, since they had other people willing to do little favors for cash or blackmail or cause, schedulers, or a sudden illness of someone who was supposed to be on a certain flight could easily be arranged.

Also, of course, many pilots were former military for their various countries, it's where they learned to fly the big planes, so they were often easily convinced to help their own governments with spy matters.

Good point about the diplomatic pouch though. I don't know enough about those, but we've definitely seen human beings transported on ships, maybe Moscow wanted the vial fast?

It's being discussed because it's been in both episodes, actually in the last 3 if you count last season's finale. Each time Elizabeth seems to be, at the very least, distracted by it, and in some opinions, doubting it. Anyway, sooner or later we will know. Could the writers be dropping all of these breadcrumbs that lead no where? Sure they could, but it doesn't seem like their style.

Yeah, and ditto on the FBI side, I've often thought that if Pastor Tim worked for either side, we'd already know it, because we do see those "sides" on screen.

Back in the 2011-2012 TV season, ABC had a Sunday night drama based on fictional stewardesses (I think based on real life counterparts) working for the former real life airline Pan Am in the early 1960's. And 1 of the main stewardesses was shown to be a courier/an operative transporting various things between the different "interested in spying/national security" type agencies in the US & various foreign (as I remember, mostly Western European) destinations the airline flew, & the stewardess character was assigned to work flights, to. I think they also might've done an ep, before the show suffered an untimely cancellation, where the courier stewardess, with help from other crew she regularly flew with, had to do something involving Cuba.

When they described the stewardess/courier plot before the show started, they explained that US airline crew members flying international flights, back in the day (if not also to this day), were oftentimes used as couriers/sort of spies by some intelligence-related agencies because the nature of their work wouldn't make them as suspect as others, as you mentioned.

[Dev F]

I doubt it. Philip was talking to her earlier about EST and how it brings up unresolved issues from your past. Added to that her mother's death. I don't think there are two more unresolved issues in Elizabeth's life then her rape and her mother sending her away. I can see both morphing into a nightmare.

 

They're not unrelated, though. Timoshev violated her when she was about Paige's age, while her friendly trainer looked on and did nothing. It's what taught her to mistrust mild-mannered men; it's why it took twenty years and Philip killing Timoshev for them to finally become a real couple despite the fact that he always loved her.

 

The implication, I think, is that this is what Elizabeth fears will happen to Paige if they go through with Pastor Tim's murder. That it'll tear her innocence away from her, breed contempt between her and her parents, and leave her feeling alone and terrified even among the people who care for her the most, just like Elizabeth herself once did.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Dev F

[bredcrumbs]

I love that they continue to use this horrible biotoxin as a metaphor for the poisonous truths at the center of the Jenningses' lives.

 

A (probably not very practical) part of me hopes that trying and failing to get rid of what I can't not think of as That Altoids Tin becomes a running bit for the season. It's nice that after all the metaphors for marriage and family, there's now something so specific (and ironically small) that represents the albatross that hangs on their marriage and family.

 

And is not an actual albatross.

Edited March 25, 2016 by bredcrumbs

[BW Manilowe]

Apologies because I can't find the post to quote now (probably because I'm posting when I should be sleeping... Just saying), but I think someone pointed out upthread how interesting it was that the episode was named for Pastor Tim, but he was barely in the episode instead of being "front & center" like most other TV series (& movie) characters whose names are in the ep (or movie) title. I just wanted to say I agreed with that observation.

[sistermagpie]

Apologies because I can't find the post to quote now (probably because I'm posting when I should be sleeping... Just saying), but I think someone pointed out upthread how interesting it was that the episode was named for Pastor Tim, but he was barely in the episode instead of being "front & center" like most other TV series (& movie) characters whose names are in the ep (or movie) title. I just wanted to say I agreed with that observation.

 

 

I think that was the same in Walter Taffett. Didn't he only come in at the end? But he was still the most important thing.

 

A (probably not very practical) part of me hopes that trying and failing to get rid of what I can't not think of as That Altoids Tin becomes a running bit for the season. It's nice that after all the metaphors for marriage and family, there's now something so specific (and ironically small) that represents the albatross that hangs on their marriage and family.

 

 

Great, too, how twice in one episode people didn't want the thing and the Jennings (specifically Philip, but ultimately it's both of them) wound up having to take it. Because it wasn't just about him being ordered to take it. It was that in the end he still feels responsibility. He and Elizabeth are the people on the front lines who can't pass the buck to somebody else. Gabriel could just leave the Altoids box on the table, and the pilot could just leave it on the seat, and Philip would pick it up because he couldn't walk away--not just because it's his job, but because it's part of his personality to feel responsible. 

 

William laid that out well, too, when he was talking to Philip about it. William and Philip seem to have pretty similar outlooks. So William could just say that no, they couldn't do a dead drop because that could be dangerous. Philip snarked back about it being dangerous in his house, but ultimately they were on the same page. They both understood the danger of the stuff and would act accordingly. William was also kind of clever in giving Philip the hint about the only way they could maybe take control--try to be unsuccessful without showing it.

 

There's even a similarity there to Paige and Elizabeth's argument. Paige can just leave the Altoids on the bus. She doesn't really understand the danger of her telling Pastor Tim. When she tells him she feels guilty about lying, it's not about how she's put her parents in danger, it's that they trusted her. It's more about her personal vision of herself--how can she be the trustworthy, honest person she wants to be when her parents trusted her with sensitive information and she broke her word not to tell and is lying about it?

 

She could do it by putting it all on Elizabeth. Yes, she told, but she just had to. She rejects responsibility for telling the truth because that's not her job. It's not normal. They can't put that on her. It's Elizabeth's responsibility that Paige told, because Elizabeth put her in a position where it was impossible not to tell, according to Paige. So Paige is still a trustworthy person, she didn't betray anyone. It's all on Elizabeth for making it impossible for her to not do that. 

 

Now it's all on Elizabeth (and Philip) again. They're the ones who understand the danger to themselves and everyone and have to work all the angles--protect themselves, protect the family, protect their life, protect Paige's innocence, protect Pastor Tim, protect themselves from Pastor Tim. There's no one for them to say, "You did this to me. You're the ones who need to fix it." Because anybody they would say that to would just reject the responsibility. 

[shura]

Great, too, how twice in one episode people didn't want the thing and the Jennings (specifically Philip, but ultimately it's both of them) wound up having to take it. Because it wasn't just about him being ordered to take it. It was that in the end he still feels responsibility. He and Elizabeth are the people on the front lines who can't pass the buck to somebody else. Gabriel could just leave the Altoids box on the table, and the pilot could just leave it on the seat, and Philip would pick it up because he couldn't walk away--not just because it's his job, but because it's part of his personality to feel responsible.

 

You think so? I've been reading this discussion here of how commercial pilots and flight attendants were used as couriers during the Cold War and thinking that there must have been safeguards against the possibility that the courier would chicken out and simply drop the package in the trash in the men's room, for example. In a situation where the pilot was clearly distressed and having jitters about his mission, I think it should have been Philip's responsibility to abort the hand-off. If I were the KGB and ran things like that, I'd make it an SOP. Instead, Philip simply waved the pilot's fears off and told him he'd be fine. Could it be that he simply wanted to get rid of the tin, that is, to pass the buck? Or was he misjudging the situation because of his own issues?

[sistermagpie]

Could it be that he simply wanted to get rid of the tin, that is, to pass the buck? Or was he misjudging the situation because of his own issues?

 

 

Of course he wanted to get rid of the tin. He also tried to get Gabriel to keep it until the Centre ordered him to take it. He made it more than clear that he wanted to get rid of that thing--if he'd been giving permission for a drop box he would have done that too. He's not taking initiative to give himself even more responsibility. Giving it to the pilot is getting it to lab where it's protected. He wants--desperately--for the courier to do his job and for the hand-off to go smoothly. 

 

I'm not saying that the *only* reason Philip and Elizabeth take responsibility is because they feel responsible. Of course there's also purely logistical reasons. They have orders. Philip isn't looking for extra responsibility--his job is to get the tin to the courier. The courier's done this before. They want other people to take on the responsibilities they've agreed to and do their jobs or do what they've agreed to do. They don't want to have all the responsibility.

 

But in the end, the courier does make the decision to just leave the thing there. Philip hands it to a person whose job it is to be responsible for it. The pilot leaves it on the seat. That's I think intentionally symbolic. It's not just saying "This is your responsibility!" it's saying "Nobody else will be responsible for this. so you have to pick it up."

[shura]

Giving it to the pilot is getting it to lab where it's protected. He wants--desperately--for the courier to do his job and for the hand-off to go smoothly.

 

Not to that particular pilot in that particular condition. That guy looked like he was about to break down and attract attention (which he did). If I'm Philip and want the tin to get to the lab, I am not giving it to that courier.

[sistermagpie]

Not to that particular pilot in that particular condition. That guy looked like he was about to break down and attract attention (which he did). If I'm Philip and want the tin to get to the lab, I am not giving it to that courier.

 

 

Yes, but you're talking about how Philip should look at the courier who's supposed to take it and say, "Nope, I'm not giving it to him. He doesn't look like he's at the top of his game and if I give it to him he might leave it in a bathroom and cause an outbreak. So instead I will call off the hand off myself, refuse to hand the stuff over." Iow, Philip will claim even more responsibility by wanting the right courier. 

 

I'm saying that Philip wants to give it to the courier, wants his responsibility to be over when he gives it to the courier and just trust that it's not his problem anymore since he got it to the next person in the chain. The guy looks nervous? Lots of people spies work with get nervous. The job is stressful. If he can get the thing passed along in the chain, his responsibility will be over. He can figure that once he has the thing the most logical thing for the courier to do is to get it to its destination rather than get himself in trouble by leaving it in an airport where it would be known what he did. If the courier had threatened to leave it in the restroom Philip probably would have held onto it, but as it is the guy's just nervous.

 

But the pilot doesn't let him do that, because the pilot just leaves the thing on the seat right in front of him. Now the thing's staring at him, there's nobody else there for him to call "not it!" to. He's the only person there, he's got the knowledge of how dangerous this thing could be just lying around, so he feels like he has to pick it up. The pilot didn't feel that way. He felt like he could just leave it there and this guy would take it or nobody would and he wouldn't care. Philip's the only one in the chain who thinks "It is literally up to me to protect people." He's the only person in the chain who doesn't have the luxury of saying "That guy will take care of it." Even when he tries to do that by getting the thing onto the plane with the courier whose job it is to take it, it doesn't work.

Edited March 25, 2016 by sistermagpie

[izabella]

I wanted Philip to leave that tin on Gabriel's table, and not pick it up.  I wonder what would have happened if he had just left it there and walked out.

Edited March 25, 2016 by izabella

[PinkRibbons]

Worst come to worst I wonder how one would go about safely destroying the glanders vial. Anyone know? Because frankly after that disaster of a hand-off and presumably more and more limited ways of getting it out of the country -- and, let's be honest, does anyone really want that stuff to end up in the hands of any government? Even if the Americans already have it? Because Russia is a chimp with a grenade at this point and they're giving the chimp a nuke. I wouldn't be surprised if Philip would be more eager to sabotage it if he wasn't so afraid of it -- I bet they could justify just getting rid of it.

[shura]

Bleach should do it. Open the vial, drop it in a jug of Clorox, seal the jug and shake it up. Nothing to it. 

[Dev F]

Yeah, it's a biotoxin. Destroying one of those is pretty easy, as long as it hasn't infected some other biological entity that you don't want to destroy.

[maczero]

The biggest thing that bugged me about this episode was that no one noticed Philip's tussle with airport security.  Okay, I can buy that the girl was grooving to "Tainted Love" but there was an old man near the front of the bus that didn't bother turning around.  A parked nearly empty bus would've been shaking seriously if two fully grown men were wrestling inside it.  Not to mention the front window would've most likely reflected what was going on in the back.  Also, I'm surprised Philip went with killing the security guard while there were three witnesses near by (the girl, the old man and the bus driver).

[sistermagpie]

The biggest thing that bugged me about this episode was that no one noticed Philip's tussle with airport security.  Okay, I can buy that the girl was grooving to "Tainted Love" but there was an old man near the front of the bus that didn't bother turning around.

 

 

Wasn't that guy asleep?