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maraleia

By maraleia
in Sleepy Hollow [V]

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jenrising
jenrising
cynic
cynic

Oh, I have no doubt that Beharie wanted to leave. My issue is the laying of blame at Beharie for wanting to leave without considering why she wanted to leave. It was pretty clear two and a half years

Badsamaritan
Badsamaritan

I don't believe a word from FOX. Look how they treated Orlando Jones, by far their biggest cheerleader. And the fact that he has still been supporting Nicole tells me he knows what the fuck really hap

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HalcyonDays

HalcyonDays

Aw, her hair is super cute! I'm sure Crane's will get better as Mison's grows out. At least, I hope he's growing it out. The sides are an awkward length. I'll admit though, the way it flips up in the back makes me want to grab Mison and run my hands through it...even more than usual. 

 

I like it, and am happy for poor Mison that he doesn't have to suffer with the wig in the stiffling Atlanta/Georgia heat. Knew he was growing it out when he kept showing up at comic cons with a hat to hide it, but thought they would at least give him extensions.I remember him saying how one late night of shooting in the NC heat, they finished filming, and of course they then had to remove the wig before he went home. He had tons of dead mosquitoes embedded in his own hair. Poor thing.

 

What this also means...is that certain people can run fingers through his real beautiful hair. *grin* If you noticed, he - or anyone else - never ever touched his "hair" ever on the show. I don't think he even tucked stray hairs behind his ears ever. So natural hair will be a vast improvement and much more comfortable for him.

 

There is a head shot on the internet of Mison when he was younger (early twenties I think) with shoulder-length hair. Trust me, he looks friggin amazing and it really suits him. *drools* So we'll see if he keeps growing it out.

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DearEvette

DearEvette

Although I like last years poster better, I do admit that the tagline is very clever.  Who knew they still had it in them?  And Tom and Nicole are ridiculously pretty! 

 

I've also seen a cropped version of the poster where each on of their faces are halved (i know, sacrilege!)  But it emphasizes the arched eyebrows a lot more.

  • Love 2
Yolapukka

Yolapukka

From the above Mison interview;

 

 

And I think if it wasn’t someone as close to arrogance as Ichabod they’d just collapse. But he has such pride that he can’t allow people to see that he’s struggling. So he forces himself to adapt. And of course it helps with his background as a spy, it helps to cover the fact that I think for perhaps the entire first season his inner monologue was just a very high-pitched scream.

 

 

Love that last turn of phrase.

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WearyTraveler

WearyTraveler

 

Just for this answer, I love him even more!

 

TM: Game of Thrones, my god. Maybe I’ll go back on when Game of Thrones

returns. We can all gasp in amazement that Jon Snow isn’t dead.

bethy

bethy

And of course it helps with his background as a spy, it helps to cover the fact that I think for perhaps the entire first season his inner monologue was just a very high-pitched scream.

 

 

I love this characterization of Ichabod for so many reasons. It's a hilarious visual to me; I think it's probably very true; and it adds a layer to Ichabod's mostly seamless adjustment to modern life. Ichabod as a guy who is internally freaking out even as he rants disdainfully about sales tax or the election process is delightful to me.

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phoenics

phoenics

I love this characterization of Ichabod for so many reasons. It's a hilarious visual to me; I think it's probably very true; and it adds a layer to Ichabod's mostly seamless adjustment to modern life. Ichabod as a guy who is internally freaking out even as he rants disdainfully about sales tax or the election process is delightful to me.

I laughed SO hard at Tom Mison's line about Ichabod's inner monologue being a high pitched scream... just ... so apt and so funny. And THAT is what made Ichabod special for me. You KNEW he was suffering internally, being a man out of time and having lost everything for this Witness stuff... so when he acted all arrogant and nasty and just ugh, you could still have a soft spot for him because you KNEW why. And seeing him in the past just makes that all the more clear... love that line.

In S2 when he's so focused on Katrina to the exclusion of his common sense, but STILL arrogant and irritating, you couldn't find the soft spot for him anymore because here he is getting what he wants and he's still an @ss. Nope. Nope nope nope! No - he was supposed to be like he was in Tempus Fugit and instead he was just arrogant and conceited and I didn't like how he behaved with Abby (I think I still see red when I remember him giving his non-witness wife voting privileges - and she was even more conceited than he was).

Whew - so glad she's gone.

I'm even intrigued by the spoiler given in the article - I hope some angst comes out of that... pretty please.

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netlyon2

netlyon2

Thanks for the link, Criminey; I really enjoyed the interview!  I'm intrigued by the additional information about the time jump (new to me, at least) and, as an English nerd whose about to teach Henry V​​, enjoyed the digression into Shakespeare's works. 

 

My favorite part, however, was this little tidbit:

 

TM: One of the benefits of doing a show over a long period of time is that the more you do it, the easier it is to climb into his skin. That’s always the fun challenge of starting a job and finding a character. With Ichabod particularly, sometimes you read the lines and you can hear the voice and you can picture the character really clearly. And some maybe, you know, not so well written scripts or the parts that don’t really fit you, it takes a lot more work to find it.

 

I hear you, Tom!

DearEvette

DearEvette

Someone live tweeted the dragoncon panel.  here: http://www.onwednesdays.net/sleepy-hollow-at-dragoncon-panel-livetweet/

 

Also on twitter there is a lovely little ten second video at the end of the panel of Tom complimenting Nicole and she has this kinda embarrassed look on her face and then she holds out her fist and he bumps. Cute as hell.

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phoenics

phoenics

Someone live tweeted the dragoncon panel.  here: http://www.onwednesdays.net/sleepy-hollow-at-dragoncon-panel-livetweet/

 

Also on twitter there is a lovely little ten second video at the end of the panel of Tom complimenting Nicole and she has this kinda embarrassed look on her face and then she holds out her fist and he bumps. Cute as hell.

 

 

I'm surprised there's not more chatter about this comment by Tom:  https://twitter.com/OnWnet/status/640260731959681024

 

Sure - I didn't expect any romantic Ichabbie this season - but it's beginning to get on my nerves that the show keeps trying to downplay Ichabbie's chemistry.  I've never in my life seen a show work so hard to kill chemistry before - chemistry other shows would kill for.

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WearyTraveler

WearyTraveler

(edited)

I'm surprised there's not more chatter about this comment by Tom:  https://twitter.com/OnWnet/status/640260731959681024

 

Sure - I didn't expect any romantic Ichabbie this season - but it's beginning to get on my nerves that the show keeps trying to downplay Ichabbie's chemistry.  I've never in my life seen a show work so hard to kill chemistry before - chemistry other shows would kill for.

 

I don't think they are trying to kill it.  It is well known that, generally, on TV shows the time when protagonists / popular couples are apart (the "will they? won't they?") generates more discussions and tends to increase ratings.

 

It's quite common for TV show to lose that excitement once a couple actually gets together.  Some shows do it more successfully than others and there's no formula to determine exactly when that should happen.  Teasing the audience works; it keeps them coming back for more, keeps them rooting for it to happen, but after it does, and the initial elation of seeing the couple finally getting together wears down, many audiences find themselves a lot less excited about the show.  Not everyone, and a lot of it depends on the execution, but that is a legitimate fear show runners have. 

 

Take Ross and Rachel in Friends, they got them together at the right time, and then had to separate them because their story wasn't as interesting for the audience as it used to be.  And despite all the flaws Friends might have had, that was one relationship they managed to tease and execute successfully, give some to the audience, take some back, give again, and so on.

 

Then take Bones (who even watches that show anymore?) where they waited so long the audience got frustrated, and when they finally decided to put the leads together, they did it off-screen to the justified anger and resentment of the couple's shippers.

 

I'm not a shipper.  I'm usually more interested in all the aspects that have nothing to do with romance, and only very few romantic TV scenes get me. So, looking at this a bit more objectively (I think), it's a hard line to walk and a tough decision to make for the show runners.  Not to mention that for this show and for this new show runner, the situation is even more complicated given the history of the show in the second season, which negatively influences even the most innocent of announcements that would not make a dent on any other shows (like hiring a new regular).  People make value judgements and jump to conclusions based on what they have experienced with the show in the past and things snowball pretty quickly with the corresponding social media explosions.

 

I think the only way to say if any of the quotes by people involved with the show (such as actors) and decisions taken by show runners are indicative of a right or wrong direction for the show's third season is to watch it.  They could be trying to keep them apart for nefarious reasons or they could be trying to exploit that chemistry by teasing the audience with it until there comes a point when they will reward it.  I will not know until I see it.  And since the show runner is new, I think he deserves a chance to show us what he's thinking before we judge it to be good or bad.

Edited by WearyTraveler
  • Love 3
DearEvette

DearEvette

It is interesting, because there is another little video out there where someone asks the question and Nicole & Tom very much play dumb as if they had never heard of Ichabbie getting in on before.  So that was odd.  Maybe they make a conscious effort to treat each question like it is new? Even of they've heard it 1,000 time before.

 

There was a second panel today -- Nicole couldn't make it and John Noble was there with Tom.  He threw some more shade at S2.  LOL.  But more Ichabbie questions came up. 

 

Someone asked: Do you think Ichabod would go back to the 18th Century if he could? and Tom says last year he might have given a different answer but this year he thinks he'd choose to stay with Abbie.  And then he said "hashtag Ichabbie"

 

But then there was this gem:

 

Tom: I don't think there are plans for them to fall into bed.

Makeup guy on panel says: there's no place to go after that

Tom: oh, there are *plenty* of places to go after that.

 

So I still think there is that idea that they are gonna keep it all platonic and everyone is toeing the company line, but Tom isn't averse to it as he may sound sometime.  At least that is my take on it.

 

Anyway the same person live tweeted the second day and here's the link http://www.onwednesdays.net/con-geek-livetweeting-the-dragoncon-day-2-sleepy-hollow-panel/

phoenics

phoenics

Well aargh - because now people on twitter are saying that Tom's comment about things being more interesting with Ichabbie as friends was a comment he had when he first read the pilot script.

 

So I dunno...

 

https://twitter.com/RaRUPE4/status/640265594336579584

 

I need to look at video from the entire panel I guess to be sure - but whatevs... I still think the writers consensus is more that Ichabbie should stay platonic - hence the 2 love interests (1 for Abbie and 1 for Ichabod) this season.  At least Abbie gets some loving though... 

blixie

blixie

I always had that impression that Tom is pretty pro-Ichabbie and he feels that the relationship is essential part of he larger save the world bit, but I think he often processes the questions per what Ichabod would think/feel which for most of two seasons was being married to someone else, and that being the man out of time makes him ultra reluctant to jeopardize his relationship with her with romantic type feelings he often feels for. Also I think he thinks it's unfair to Abbie since he's so dependent on her.

 

Nikki is the opposite, as Nikki she seems reluctant to see that story line beat hit to many times because she knows how many times the two leads getting together has flamed out, but when she answers from Abbie's frame of mind she's like girl why aren't you all over that?!

I think as long as the show exists, and Nikki/Tom are onscreen together Ichabbie will be a thing that is possible and actively teased, but the love interests this year wierdly give me more hope that they're fast tracking Ichabbie, because outside relationships are typically doomed, and are mean to stand in contrast to the superior central relationship both for the viewers and for the characters themselves, aka non one else can ever really appreciate what they go through together as witnesses except each other.

  • Love 1
Julia

Julia

(edited)

I actually kind of friendship them, not because they don't have ridiculous chemistry, but because while I think the audience is ready for a Nick and Nora-type working and playing together relationship, none of the people writing episodic television know how to write it.

 

So pretty much as soon as they acknowledge that there's any vague romantic interest between the two (yes, I'm talking to you, Bones and Castle) what used to be an interesting show about two compelling leads who have interesting conversations and get off on how smart each other are becomes the leaden adolescent brooding hour, and instead of working to make a watchable show the production team plans shippy moments for tumblr and disposable, dull  alternate love interests the leads have to get stupider to be attracted to because they're purty (hur). 

 

If I thought that the team writing this show was smart enough to write Ichabbie, I'd be fine with it. I don't.

Edited by Julia
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phoenics

phoenics

I think my take is that I'd prefer if the show focused on building back the trust and rapport between Ichabbie and developing each character in her/his own right.  

 

I think what I DON'T want is the show just saying "NO!! NEVER!" whenever Ichabbie is brought up - or teasing us with it on one side, but then screwing us on the other.  I just want a fair treatment of them.  If they do decide to "go there" eventually, then I would hope that they do it justice.

 

But right now, Ichabbie happening in S3 isn't top of mind - just don't hide the chemistry with Tom and Nicole.  Don't purposely try to kill it.  Let it do what it wants to do.

 

Also - I do agree that the relationships this year are going to be all about how only the witnesses really "get it" and how that impacts their relationships with others and themselves.

  • Love 5
Blackhoney

Blackhoney

(edited)

Ichabbie is not going to happen this year, or probably ever. At the last day of Dragon Con Tom said outright the show is not going in that direction. Something I thought fans knew once they brought in Betsy Ross and Daniel whatever his name is. Both Ross and whatshisface are former flames brought back to be future flames.

 

Tom and Nicole are two god awful people who hate the idea of Ichabbie so much that I think it has permeated the writers’ room. In season one just the mention of Ichabbie would make Nicole ball her face up and say yuck. She’s always been very anti-Ichabbie as a couple. Fans used to gripe about it quite a bit. Tom was more accommodating, but now even he has jumped on the Ichabbie is poison bandwagon.

 

For me, I don’t need them to be a couple, but I’m smart enough to know that  if Abbie isn’t paired with Ichabod another woman will be and just like Katrina, she’ll become a divisive entity. This show favors Ichabod and his background as a witness far more than it favors Abbie and her background. If Ichabod is paired with Ross, and the actress who plays her basically told us she will be, expect her to play a major role on the show to the detriment of Abbie and Jenny. As it is Ross is written to be super important because she’s from the past and knows everything. She’ll have a connection with Crane Abbie will not. Once again Abbie’s only purpose will be as the muscle.

 

For a show that claimed they were going to get back to Ichabod and Abbie, the heart of the show, what have we heard about that relationship being built upon? Nothing. All we’ve heard is Ichabod went away on sabbatical and Abbie went off for soldier training. Every clue about season three has been related to either Crane of the show’s other new characters. Building on the witness bond and possibly giving them supernatural powers would have went a long way in doing that. Instead they are giving Betsy a magic flag to travel through time and be the witnesses new go to person for information.

 

Tom and Nicole are poison for this show, especially Nicole. I honestly can’t wait until Ichabetsy becomes all the rage at the next Comic Con and the writers start writing to take advantage of that. Nicole is okay with being downgraded on the show and constantly plays herself down as the show’s lead female. She always caping for the show’s other women, none of them are caping for her. Let’s see if Ichabetsy becomes a thing if Nikki Reed will turn her nose up and go yuck. Let’s see if she’s dumb enough to play herself down. She’d snatch Nicole’s spot in a hot minute and the writers would go into overdrive to promote it.

 

As I said in a mini-rant on Twitter a few days ago, Ichabbie is a sinking ship and Nicole and Tom aren’t worth fighting for. We want more for them than they want for themselves. They don’t wanna be great. If they did they would play up the show’s most important aspect: THEMSELVES. Instead, both routinely cape for secondary characters and relationships no one cares about.

Edited by Blackhoney
phoenics

phoenics

(edited)

 

For me, I don’t need them to be a couple, but I’m smart enough to know that  if Abbie isn’t paired with Ichabod another woman will be and just like Katrina, she’ll become a divisive entity. This show favors Ichabod and his background as a witness far more than it favors Abbie and her background. If Ichabod is paired with Ross, and the actress who plays her basically told us she will be, expect her to play a major role on the show to the detriment of Abbie and Jenny. As it is Ross is written to be super important because she’s from the past and knows everything. She’ll have a connection with Crane Abbie will not. Once again Abbie’s only purpose will be as the muscle.

 

 

 

If SBR/NR is pushed to the forefront - or looks like she's being positioned that way and she usurps Abbie and Jenny, she's a goner - or the show is.  Unless the show magically grabs a ton of fans elsewhere, they cannot go that route.  And the LAST thing this show needs is for fans to fire up the #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter tag, OR for fans - either here or on FB - to latch on to NR as nuKatrina.  Just the label alone would force a lot of fans to simply not come back or to abandon the show.

 

As for Nicole and Tom - it's true Nicole has never really caped for herself on this show - and honestly I believe she needs a better agent who can handle contract stuff for her - after last season, she needed a new contract to force things, but she literally seems to just hope for the best.  And I also think her introvertedness makes her not want the limelight as others do.  It sometimes makes her hard to cape for.  Kinda hard to cape for someone who doesn't cape for herself.  I do wish she was more self aware though - rolling her eyes when Ichabbie is mentioned seems in poor form - especially given all the fans have done for her - many who really do love Ichabbie.

 

I think NB doesn't really understand how fandoms work.  I'm not sure if she understands that many of the people (not all, but the majority) who are against Ichabbie because "why can't two leads just be platonic?" would not cape for her.  Basically if she was replaced by another actress who was paired with Ichabod, they'd cape for her and the "platonic" protest would simply vanish.  Some of those fans are truly fans of hers, but many just aren't.  And my question to her would be - why is she open to a side romance with Daniel, but not Ichabod?  Does she not remember last year with Katrina?  Nikki Reed is just Katrina 2.0, unless the writers surprise me.  But anyway - clearly NB doesn't understand fandoms and she doesn't understand PR.  Hype is what PR gloms onto - and hype usually goes hand in hand with shipping when you have nothing else.  TPTB clearly want a buzz around NR - so NB needs to learn how to watch her back.  

 

For Tom - in the last Dragon Con, Tom's comments were actually taken out of context - although I did also hear that he reiterated that it wasn't going that way (this year).  But I never heard that - I did hear how his comments were taken out of context - he mentioned that he loved the platonic angle (in the pilot) - he did not mention how he feels about it now.  So - I feel he needs to be cut some slack.

 

If the show thinks that sidelining Abbie or shortchanging her in anyway will help this show, they are sorely mistaken.  Folks will just leave.  Hopefully the writers room know this.

 

I do want to correct one thing though - Abbie's side of things with Daniel is bolstered by the whole Bones crossover - that's got to be Abbie, because she's now FBI.  Crane will be involved, but Abbie should drive that aspect of the story.

 

I'm sure if the episodes appear to be too focused on Crane and if SBR is brought forth into the present, fans will bolt pretty fast - or at least I will.

Edited by phoenics
Indi

Indi

Tom and Nicole are two god awful people who hate the idea of Ichabbie so much that I think it has permeated the writers’ room. In season one just the mention of Ichabbie would make Nicole ball her face up and say yuck. She’s always been very anti-Ichabbie as a couple. Fans used to gripe about it quite a bit. Tom was more accommodating, but now even he has jumped on the Ichabbie is poison bandwagon.

 

Maybe it's the other way around, the writers' room has permeated their mindset about Ichabbie.

 

It is true that Nicole has never been a shipper, but considering the circumstances, how could she be? Ichy was married and many fans were already calling her character a homewrecker and all kinds of stuff for daring to have chemistry with him, which made the Ichytrinas a very salty minority and the anti-shippers react aggressively. Then the S1 finale and S2 happened. How could she wish her character to be with someone like Ichy? What kind of masochist with low self esteem would she Abbie think to be? The writing has not helped to make a romantic relationship viable. There has been nothing about Ichy's attitude that showed any kind of feelings for Abbie, not even platonic. Quite the opposite, actually. How can Nicole work with that, to please the fans? Surely, she could be more neutral about it, but something tells me that getting booed at a con just at the mention of Ichabbie, which happened in this one, is not very conductive to show a pro Ichabbie attitude.

 

I know fans prefer Mison's ever changing tune and cling to the times he's said something positive about a romance between them, but, personally, I prefer Nicole's consistent honesty to Mison lying to please everyone. I'm not going to cling to those times he mentioned Ichabod's feelings for Abbie, when a "LOL, joke is on you! His One True Love is another" followed the next opportunity he had. Fuck that. I wouldn't be surprised if Betsy filled that epic soulmate position in his interviews, now that Katrina is gone.

 

It doesn't matter what they say though, what matters is the writers' room and they've always made clear, what their position is. There is nothing there.

 

For Tom - in the last Dragon Con, Tom's comments were actually taken out of context - although I did also hear that he reiterated that it wasn't going that way (this year). But I never heard that - I did hear how his comments were taken out of context - he mentioned that he loved the platonic angle (in the pilot) - he did not mention how he feels about it now. So - I feel he needs to be cut some slack.

 

Not really taken out of context, because he reiterated on Sunday, that he and presumably Nicole didn't want their characters to hook up and that the show wasn't going that way anyway.  

 

One thing I agree with is the part about Nicole and self-promotion. It is very frustrating as a fan, because it doesn't matter how hard we fight for her if she just retreats and goes with the flow. However, I don't know what's going on behind the scenes. Maybe there's more to it than simply Nicole being an introvert. I don't think she's okay with being downgraded, because she spoke up about not being invited to do commentary on the S2 DVD. We also don't know if she has spoken up to the producers or if doing so could have catastrophic consequences for her. A black woman speaking up could earn her a "difficult to work with" reputation, besides being fired, like Orlando Jones. They are not in the same position as Mison or Winter, who had the producers' ears, for some unfathomable reason... What could it be? Hmmm... So no, I cannot judge Nicole too harshly for not fighting for herself, even though I'm definitely disappointed about it.

phoenics

phoenics

(edited)

How can Nicole work with that, to please the fans? Surely, she could be more neutral about it, but something tells me that getting booed at a con just at the mention of Ichabbie, which happened in this one, is not very conductive to show a pro Ichabbie attitude.

I've been hearing this incident blown out of proportion. I watched the clip and it was ONE fan who booed, then several people laughed nervously and then there were some people who then cheered (for Ichabbie).

I have to go get ready for work, so my other comments (about Nicole and her ability to fight for herself - I partially agree with you - although she likely would NEVER have the kind of currency that she had at the end of S2 ever again) will have to wait - but I just had to point out that the "booing" was really only one person. And then when Tom answered, he mentioned his feelings about it at the time of the pilot.

I'd need to actually read Tom's full comments from Sunday for that context of him "reiterating" that it wasn't happening - because just based on the way some in the fandom are saying that "Ichabbie was booed" or "Tom said (on Sat) that he wanted them to remain platonic" (when that's a comment taken way out of context), I honestly think some people are leaving the wrong impression of what was said in their "retelling" of what happened. Even your comment above makes it sound like the entire audience booed when that's simply untrue.

Do you happen to have a link to Tom's comments on Sunday?

Edited by phoenics
Indi

Indi

Do you happen to have a link to Tom's comments on Sunday?

 

From an Ichabbie fan, who was at the panel.

 

I didn't see as many people posting about that panel as the one from saturday. They didn't seem very excited about it, although maybe they just didn't feel like posting.

 

Anyway, TV Line - Fall TV Spectacular: Exclusive Scoop and Photos on 43 Returning Favorites!

 

It has some mild spoilers, so I'll only mention this part.

 

But don't worry: Though Nikki Reed is joining as Betsy Ross and Shannyn Sossamon will be around as the ominous Pandora, Campbell promises that the Millses will have plenty of screen time this season. In one sister-centric episode, they "revisit some of the more interesting versions of their past as children," he says.

 

Oh no, he sounds like Goffman or is trying to. Replace Sexy!Betsy with Katrina and the one sister-centric episode with "Mama" and he nailed. And why does he mention the Millses as one entity? Only one of them is the lead or has he already downgraded Abbie and the only lead now is Ichy? 

blixie

blixie

IDK Nikki has retweeted a lot of shippy fannish stuff, so I don't think she's as averse to it as she claims, but I'd agree that she has good reasons for not wanting it to become anything out side fan fic and fan art.

 

I think Tom/Nikki at this point feel like the audience, not entirely trustful of those running things and therefore would rather the newbies not ruin whatever shreds of Ichabbie they generate when they are together on screen.

phoenics

phoenics

From an Ichabbie fan, who was at the panel.

Yeah - I saw that - but to be fair, a "fan who was at the panel" also erroneously reported that Tom said that Ichabbie was better platonic from his words on Saturday and that's not actually what Tom said. So I take this with a grain of salt. I have my doubts that they will ever do Ichabbie - but I still don't want to take stuff out of context and spread panic (and vitriol) through the fandom.

I didn't see as many people posting about that panel as the one from saturday. They didn't seem very excited about it, although maybe they just didn't feel like posting.

Nikki B wasn't there - that's why there was less excitement.

Oh no, he sounds like Goffman or is trying to. Replace Sexy!Betsy with Katrina and the one sister-centric episode with "Mama" and he nailed. And why does he mention the Millses as one entity? Only one of them is the lead or has he already downgraded Abbie and the only lead now is Ichy?

Yeah - I saw that part too - although he mentions Abbie in the beginning (about her going to the FBI). Maybe Clifton is Goffman Part 2 or maybe he's not - but I'd rather - at this point - give this show a chance. I think I'm tired of being angry.

Also - I did notice how he lumped Abbie in with her sister and even commented on that on tumblr - because it irritated me that she was lumped in - but she was mentioned separately earlier in the article by him, so I don't count it as the same. Clearly Abbie will have her own arc with her FBI stuff and Bones and then an emotional arc with her sister...

I think the fact that he even mentions it that way means he - the showrunner - understands that fans love Abbie and want to see her. I wish he had separated it and mentioned Abbie by name then, but he DOES mention Abbie by name earlier in the article (which you didn't quote).

I'm not being a Pollyanna - just trying to wait and see. The proof will be in the pudding soon enough.

  • Love 2
DearEvette

DearEvette

But don't worry: Though Nikki Reed is joining as Betsy Ross and Shannyn Sossamon will be around as the ominous Pandora, Campbell promises that the Millses will have plenty of screen time this season. In one sister-centric episode, they "revisit some of the more interesting versions of their past as children," he says.

 

 

A quote like this, I think, we need to remember the context.  It is coming from Tvline and probably filtered through some Ausiello or Slezak questions/assumptions.  They know that SH fans did not receive the news of Betsy Ross well.  TVline's own comment boards are filled with a lot of the same complaints as here.   It is probable this blurb is being filtered through some of that subtext.  The whole "don't worry' thing, imo, is a direct reference to their knowledge of where the fandom is.  They may have asked about Jenny & Abbie and this was the answer they chose to share.   I don't think I would necessarily assuming things about Campbell based on this 1/2 of a sentence answer to a question we never even hear.

 

re: DragonCon:  I liked the one woman who simply live tweeted with no editorial comment.  I think sometimes we can get too caught up in the messiness.  I am not gonna lie, all the s2 backstage drama made me want to pull up a tub of popcorn and wallow in the crazy. But at this point I just want to watch a good show and maybe get some good Tom and Nicole face time.I do miss seeing good Miharie interviews, no matter what they are saying.  They are just fun to watch.

  • Love 3
WearyTraveler

WearyTraveler

(edited)

A quote like this, I think, we need to remember the context.  It is coming from Tvline and probably filtered through some Ausiello or Slezak questions/assumptions.  They know that SH fans did not receive the news of Betsy Ross well.  TVline's own comment boards are filled with a lot of the same complaints as here.   It is probable this blurb is being filtered through some of that subtext.  The whole "don't worry' thing, imo, is a direct reference to their knowledge of where the fandom is.  They may have asked about Jenny & Abbie and this was the answer they chose to share.   I don't think I would necessarily assuming things about Campbell based on this 1/2 of a sentence answer to a question we never even hear.

 

re: DragonCon:  I liked the one woman who simply live tweeted with no editorial comment.  I think sometimes we can get too caught up in the messiness.  I am not gonna lie, all the s2 backstage drama made me want to pull up a tub of popcorn and wallow in the crazy. But at this point I just want to watch a good show and maybe get some good Tom and Nicole face time.I do miss seeing good Miharie interviews, no matter what they are saying.  They are just fun to watch.

 

I think you have a great attitude!

 

I don't want to offend or upset anyone, and I understand the frustration and the anxiety, given the events of season 2, but I think some things are being blown out of proportion, or at least that some things can't be proclaimed as truth until we see S3.

 

I think these new show-runners are between a rock and a hard place, to put it mildly:

 

-  They do what other shows do and publish casting calls and tell fans about new roles (guest, recurring, regular) and the fandom explodes because they are making assumptions about where the story is going based on casting decisions.  Maybe the story is going there, maybe not, but some people take their assumptions as 100% certain and then get upset about it.  Other shows with hard core followers do this and while some people theorize and say things like "I wouldn't like it if...", there's no outcry of foul play; that happens when the show airs and the fans are not happy with the story decisions, sometimes it happens a few weeks before a particular storyline makes it to the screen, but it's rare when there are such passionate reactions so far in advance of a season premiere.

 

- Now that the premiere is closer, they go to a public event.  The two leads are there.  Not for all the events, but notice there's no other S3 actor doing any promotion.  They release a poster that couldn't have the leads' faces any bigger, with both actors featured equally in size.  They talk about Abbie's story alone and her story with her sister (a character the audience wanted to see featured more prominently), and still there's another explosion.  As the poster I'm quoting said, entertainment reportes cut interviews for space, and I'll add that no showrunner wants to give too much away either.  For all we know, they might actually be trying to surprise us with some awesome things (or not, the point is, we can't tell for sure).

 

- Other shows with a male-female lead (or with popular pairings) tease their audiences constantly.  They hint that it might happen, and then say "maybe not", "maybe never", "the time's not right", and so on.  Those shows don't get the amount of backlash these guys are getting.

 

- Had they decided to keep mum about everything they are doing, so that their comments are not taken out of context or misunderstood, I'm sure there would be outrage at the silence too.

 

They can't win.  And what's worse is that they are paying for someone else's mistakes.

 

I say if they fuck it up again, let the shitstorm rain, but until they do, I think we'd save ourselves some awful times (and maybe avoid getting ulcers) if we just breath, wait and see before we make up our minds.

Edited by WearyTraveler
  • Love 14
fantique

fantique

(edited)

I am kind of shocked that people think Nivole is not fighting for what is "best" for her character. Her character was sidelined but still kept authentic and true during that I will now refer to as the DarK Times. Why is Abbie being with Ichabod the best for Nicole's career or ambitions? She was excited to sign up for an action packed fantasy show as a lead in her own right. She was excited because she is ostensibly the ONLY black female lead of fantasy show on TV and Film. She did not sign up to be the Leading Lady that comes with love interest privileges. The more independent storyline she has the more interesting for her as an actor. That's why she is all for the other dude. In that relationship, it will all be about Abbie. We will all be on Abbie's side and we will be there to see the effects on Abbie's development to be in that relationship. Damn right she doesn't want Ichabbie (at least right now), she wants a storyline that's hers, not hers and Ichabod or hers and Jenny's. Just. Hers. I actually find it worrying that people are arguing that it would be the only way she would carry as much weight on the show, if she was Ichabod's lady love. That's insulting. Ichabod should not be the gain to a character's importance for fuck's sake.

That's like saying he is the true lead of the show. Nicole's filmography is full of roles where she is the girl/woman, she is more than allowed to want more for her character.

This really pisses me off.

PS: her clearly not returning Hawley/Matt Barr's flirting? That's her fighting for her character. It sucked, they made it a creepy almost sister swap situation and she did not reciprocate even though it was clear to me the script was originally having Abbie be open to his advances. Nicole put a stop to it even before the episodes aired because 2.05 was already in the can by comic con and she was clearly dismissive from the beginning. The IIC probably did not even ch test them and MB's desperate LI acting sucked and if she did not care about the integrity of her character, she would have acted like Hawley is totally Abbie's type.

Also, anyone notice how she mostly retweets stuff that's about getting to explore her character more and Mills sisters storylines? She is thankful for the shippers support but never really goes out of her way to encourage it. And that's her right, damn it.

PPS: Mods, I am not sure if I'm getting off-topic here but since it's about fans responses to NB in interviews and on Twitter, I thought it still ok to post here. Please move to appropriate thread if not.

Edited by fantique
  • Love 4
phoenics

phoenics

(edited)

I am kind of shocked that people think Nivole is not fighting for what is "best" for her character. Her character was sidelined but still kept authentic and true during that I will now refer to as the DarK Times. Why is Abbie being with Ichabod the best for Nicole's career or ambitions? She was excited to sign up for an action packed fantasy show as a lead in her own right. She was excited because she is ostensibly the ONLY black female lead of fantasy show on TV and Film. She did not sign up to be the Leading Lady that comes with love interest privileges. The more independent storyline she has the more interesting for her as an actor. That's why she is all for the other dude. In that relationship, it will all be about Abbie. We will all be on Abbie's side and we will be there to see the effects on Abbie's development to be in that relationship. Damn right she doesn't want Ichabbie (at least right now), she wants a storyline that's hers, not hers and Ichabod or hers and Jenny's. Just. Hers. I actually find it worrying that people are arguing that it would be the only way she would carry as much weight on the show, if she was Ichabod's lady love. That's insulting. Ichabod should not be the gain to a character's importance for fuck's sake.

That's like saying he is the true lead of the show. Nicole's filmography is full of roles where she is the girl/woman, she is more than allowed to want more for her character.

This really pisses me off.

Sorry - I want to clarify about what I meant with my comments. What I meant was that NB doesn't seem to understand fandoms. And that sometimes she has seemed almost hostile to the idea of Ichabbie - when a significant portion of her fanbase and this fanbase overall love Ichabbie or the idea of them. She doesn't have to stan for Ichabbie - just be a bit more diplomatic about it.

In addition - when I mentioned caping for herself - that's more about her promotion for the show. It doesn't feel like she does that enough and she could actually do a lot for the show and Abbie by doing more. When I compare her to Candice Patton on The Flash and all of the amazing press she's done since she started the show - now SHE gets it. She gets how important representation is and she literally capes for it. Candice is clearly more outgoing and extroverted than NB, but I also think she's far more savvy and she actively worked to understand the fandom and to carve out a space for herself - even with the ridiculous amount of hatred that she gets. She also really understands how to use the currency she has with the fandom to give feedback in the press about Iris West (from the perspective of the fans and what they're clamoring for). She really listens and then works hard in the press to show solidarity with fan wishes (to a limit) and to express that publicly and then thank the writers when they give her those stories, etc..

My issue with NB is less about Ichabbie and more about the fact that it feels like she only comes out to do press when it's absolutely necessary and as a last resort. If that's the show doing that, and she wants to do more then she needs a better agent or PR agency backing her - or a better manager. She has a ton of currency with fans that I believe she is wasting - there is a FB post with her that has like 17000 likes - more than any other posting except the ones with a pic of her and Ichabod. She has real currency now - she needs to use it. Promos should continue to feature her in equal prominence to Ichabod and she needs to actively make sure that she is not usurped by Nikki Reed. Sorry but she needs to. Many fans came to watch this show because of her and it would be nice to know that she cares about that - not that she's ready to abdicate her lead status to someone else (because that's what it felt like in S2 sometimes). I know she's a class act, but she can be that and actually step up a bit more.

As a WoC I cannot look at all that CP gives to her fanbase and then look at NB and not pine for more.

 

PS: her clearly not returning Hawley/Matt Barr's flirting? That's her fighting for her character. It sucked, they made it a creepy almost sister swap situation and she did not reciprocate even though it was clear to me the script was originally having Abbie be open to his advances. Nicole put a stop to it even before the episodes aired because 2.05 was already in the can by comic con and she was clearly dismissive from the beginning. The IIC probably did not even ch test them and MB's desperate LI acting sucked and if she did not care about the integrity of her character, she would have acted like Hawley is totally Abbie's type.

Also, anyone notice how she mostly retweets stuff that's about getting to explore her character more and Mills sisters storylines? She is thankful for the shippers support but never really goes out of her way to encourage it. And that's her right, damn it.

PPS: Mods, I am not sure if I'm getting off-topic here but since it's about fans responses to NB in interviews and on Twitter, I thought it still ok to post here. Please move to appropriate thread if not.

I think when some of us mention NB not caping for herself - it's beyond shipping, as I tried to detail above. I do agree that she shouldn't HAVE to cape for Ichabbie - but she shouldn't spit on it either - as many fans do love the idea of it. That's why I said she doesn't seem to understand fandoms the way Candice Patton or Tom Mison clearly do.

Edited by phoenics
  • Love 1
jhlipton

jhlipton

Nicole's filmography is full of roles where she is the girl/woman, she is more than allowed to want more for her character..

 

Nicole's filmography is full of awesome.  I just saw American Violet, a 2008 film about racial injustice in one county in Texas.  Beharie is one of those rare actors/actresses who "inhabit" a role -- when you watch, you see the person being portrayed, and not the actot[ess].  This, to me, is a "must-see" film.

 

Perfhaps one of the reasons she's not "caping" harder for SH is that she has a fantastic movie career ahead of her...

  • Love 1
fantique

fantique

Nicole's filmography is full of awesome.  I just saw American Violet, a 2008 film about racial injustice in one county in Texas.  Beharie is one of those rare actors/actresses who "inhabit" a role -- when you watch, you see the person being portrayed, and not the actot[ess].  This, to me, is a "must-see" film.

 

Perfhaps one of the reasons she's not "caping" harder for SH is that she has a fantastic movie career ahead of her...

The point I was trying to make isn't that her work hasn't been great and interestingly layered. It's that she has played roles that are defined by the fact that she's a girl/woman in that situation and that informs the story and the angle the narrative took. This is her first role where the character could have been a 40 year old asian guy and it wouldn't make a big difference. The structure would remain the same. Two witnesses, helping each other out.

fantique

fantique

(edited)

This is a response I slept on to check if I still feel that way today. I do, so read if you like. Will be mostly in spoiler tags so those weary can avoid the ramble.

 

Sorry - I want to clarify about what I meant with my comments. What I meant was that NB doesn't seem to understand fandoms. And that sometimes she has seemed almost hostile to the idea of Ichabbie - when a significant portion of her fanbase and this fanbase overall love Ichabbie or the idea of them. She doesn't have to stan for Ichabbie - just be a bit more diplomatic about it.

Oh don't worry phoenics, my comment wasn't in response to yours. I found your posts totally reasonable and understood where they are coming from. While we don't always agree, I always respect your opinion and never feel it is coming from a vindictive place. The following rant is in general, I respond to some -fair but confusing to me- points you raised further below.

 

Rant:

There were other posts that I felt were not only mean spirited towards Nicole but had a downright condescending tone as if she's a poor girl who's too stupid to realise what's good for her. Like saying that the people who agree with her are mostly people who don't actually like her or are bothered by the idea of hers and Tom's characters being together because...melanin, and she thinks it's because they like her character. Which is wrong. Her attitude was always "we don't try to play into it but I get where people are coming from".

Acting like she's stupid to believe people agree with that opinion of hers because they enjoy Abbie is just rude in my opinion. Especially when the people making such comments are not exactly championing Ichabbie because they're fans of Nicole's or they would be happy for her that she's getting to do new stuff she enjoys. People are either into the chemistry (this word is actually starting to tire me) or reacting to the lack of chemistry between TM and KW or they're about finally seeing a biracial couple as leads. None of this is about enriching or deepening her character or giving her opportunities for interesting acting. She clearly always was more into getting to kick butt and the mythology aspect of the show, which she always shows great enthusiasm for, because you know, it is a fantasy show. She's a Marvel fan, she likes genre stuff and that was something she was really into from the beginning. People always talking about Ichabbie must be annoying. It's great that the fans want that but what else? How about asking about seeing more of her history after Jenny left? People seem to be either asking about Ichabbie and Abbie + Jenny storylines. Some fans want to accuse the creators and network of seeing her as token, aren't they doing the same thing when they only ask about stuff that only sees her as part of a duo/group as opposed to something about just her? If people only ask about storylines with her that involve other people, then isn't indirectly saying that Abbie by herself is not what they are interested in? Should she be jumping for joy at that? Why is almost no one super excited about her getting to go to Quantico? As soon as the spoiler came out, it was all about how they are not making Ichabbie happen or about the significance of the new dude instead of the BFD that is her going to Quantico and what it means for her. It's all "oh but that means she and crane are not together (I mean location wise)" and "Oh no! Crane is getting love interests! What does that mean for Abbie!?" and blah blah blah... Basically I find it extremely rich of people to act like she should feel honoured that people only care about who she is doing instead of what.

 

As for the spitting on the fans' support, maybe I am behind on the interviews (I was in a shitty internet zone for three months) but everything I ever saw since the first season was that she was grateful for the interest and involvement but she wasn't playing Abbie as having feelings for Crane. She said multiple times that she understood why people are all "He's cuuuuute. DO IT!!!!!" but that he was married and that Abbie has much bigger fish to fry. Honestly, at this point, other than being saddled and it being easier than a relationship with a 'civilian' what is the appeal of Ichabbie? And I mean other than the chemistry between Tom and Nicole. What does Abbie get out of that relationship? As for Nicole herself, whether it's with Ichabod or another guy, she gets to flex Abbie's emotional muscles except that with a dude that is not the other lead, the focus is on her. I don't see why Nicole should see Ichabbie as much of a draw right now. And her saying that she's grateful for the support but doesn't think they're going in that direction is more than enough. I don't see how that's spitting in the face of the fans. Do they want her to lie and say she wants Ichabbie? What does that change in actuality? She can want it or not all she wants, if it's happening, it's happening and if it isn't, it isn't. The only difference here is how disappointed or not she will be and how placated or betrayed by her the fans will feel. Why should she lie and then be burdened with the bitterness if Ichabbie doesn't happen? Just so, for a little time, she has an army of yes people who will lose interest because it's not really her character they are rooting for? I just don't get what response people would think is not ungrateful while not being a liar or a hypocrite. Unless they just want to be lied to, but then that's another story entirely. Either way, the admonishing tone feels offensive to me. Especially when people act as if she's blind to not want Ichabbie or should feel flattered that it's all people want to ask more of her. At a panel, people will ask her shippy questions, maybe some about her family/Jenny and ask Tom and Lyndie "what will be Crane's next rant?" and "what did Jenny do all these years away?" respectively. That fucking sucks. And I find those people really annoying for not seeing that. Again, not up to date but if anyone has an instance that proves me wrong, please post a link or something.

 

 

In addition - when I mentioned caping for herself - that's more about her promotion for the show. It doesn't feel like she does that enough and she could actually do a lot for the show and Abbie by doing more. When I compare her to Candice Patton on The Flash and all of the amazing press she's done since she started the show - now SHE gets it. She gets how important representation is and she literally capes for it. Candice is clearly more outgoing and extroverted than NB, but I also think she's far more savvy and she actively worked to understand the fandom and to carve out a space for herself - even with the ridiculous amount of hatred that she gets. She also really understands how to use the currency she has with the fandom to give feedback in the press about Iris West (from the perspective of the fans and what they're clamoring for). She really listens and then works hard in the press to show solidarity with fan wishes (to a limit) and to express that publicly and then thank the writers when they give her those stories, etc..

My issue with NB is less about Ichabbie and more about the fact that it feels like she only comes out to do press when it's absolutely necessary and as a last resort. If that's the show doing that, and she wants to do more then she needs a better agent or PR agency backing her - or a better manager. She has a ton of currency with fans that I believe she is wasting - there is a FB post with her that has like 17000 likes - more than any other posting except the ones with a pic of her and Ichabod. She has real currency now - she needs to use it. Promos should continue to feature her in equal prominence to Ichabod and she needs to actively make sure that she is not usurped by Nikki Reed. Sorry but she needs to. Many fans came to watch this show because of her and it would be nice to know that she cares about that - not that she's ready to abdicate her lead status to someone else (because that's what it felt like in S2 sometimes). I know she's a class act, but she can be that and actually step up a bit more.

As a WoC I cannot look at all that CP gives to her fanbase and then look at NB and not pine for more.
 

I think when some of us mention NB not caping for herself - it's beyond shipping, as I tried to detail above. I do agree that she shouldn't HAVE to cape for Ichabbie - but she shouldn't spit on it either - as many fans do love the idea of it. That's why I said she doesn't seem to understand fandoms the way Candice Patton or Tom Mison clearly do.

Ok, so there are three things I thought of as a response after reading your post.

 

1. I agree that it would do a world of good to see her more in interviews and for people to see how excited she is about playing Abbie Mills. I really enjoyed the SAG foundation interview with TM, NB, OJ and LG because I got insight into all of their individual processes and could see how much each of them enjoyed their part. But like I will go on more about in my second point, I genuinely believe that if a person is not junket/interview compatible, forcing them always leads to disaster. They almost always make people less pleased than when they didn't hear from the actor.

 

2. As you said she's an introvert. She doesn't do much to create hype or whatever and maybe she should. But I simply doubt  it. A lot of the actresses I really like, and quite a few of them are in genre stuff, don't even have a twitter account and even if they do, it's low key and rarely self promoting. It doesn't affect their popularity and in fact people like them better because they feel more genuine. They get a small but substantial glimpse into who is the person they're a fan of and appreciate the little insights and respect their privacy. Example: Jennifer Lawrence! doesn't have a twitter account, barely seen when there is no promo and yet people love her and enjoy the little pieces they get when she does appear because none of it is forced. Maybe it's a fake image but it relies on the balance of not being seen much until promo time. And, what a coincidence, her fans focus on her, her character, and what she feels and does as opposed to the contrived love triangle she is a part of. She basically got super lucky and skipped the early young adult phase where you are only half a ship name (although I think it's changing because YA are much more female driven these days). So basically that type of self promotion is only good when you're planning on being part of a long term ship, which NB was/is not. I don't think she wants to do the show for the next 5 years and sustain her popularity on shipping. Also, her career was doing well before those guys came along, she kept busy in critically acclaimed projects. Honestly, I must stress that the idea that she should even worry about NR taking her place is downgrading (however unintentional) because that links Abbie's place in the show with her value as dictated by how Crane sees her. I know it is not mean spirited but acting like they are in competition for lead position is insulting because it parks Abbie in the LL(always has the "most important female!" connotation, however secondary they actually are to the story/plot and viewers)/LI position and not a lead in her own right.

 

3. The point of comparing her to CP is what I have the most trouble with. And I certainly don't get what it has to do with being an actress of colour versus not. Honestly, I think Scandal has given unrealistic expectations as to the power of social media on programming and careers for any actors, M/WOCs inluded. Sure they made the tweet part of it an event but it's not a sustainable model for most types of shows. On Scandal, even on your best day you don't catch all of the details and the drama is overplayed and designed to make you talk about it. This year in TV, more than ever, I think show runners have realised that the whole twitter moments thing is a double edge sword and mostly goes with a decrease in internal consistency and logic. It makes sense, the more gasp motivated a story is, the more leaps in logic and narration are needed to sustain the pace. A genre show, especially one with a high mythology content, can not afford to have random scenes and jumbled plotlines just to surprise! the viewer at the end. In fact, the more foreshadowing and retracing one can do in those shows the better appraised it is. But it also has to have a good balance between wink-wink and anvils. Genre shows are meant for internal digestion and then sharing and thinking over the possible outcomes.

So I can't validate the idea that social media is as vital as people make it out to be. 

I also can't validate the idea that CP is an example that NB should follow as their situations, aside from being in a genre show, are completely different. Abbie is a lead in her own right without whom the story literally could not happen as it was even more hers than Ichabod's at the start. Iris West was a love interest at her conception. She was created as a reward and gauge for the hero's emotional and interpersonal changes. You can't see those two as similar just because they are high up on the call sheet WoC. Their narrative purposes are different. Iris West could disappear now and only reappear the last seaso'(s last episode as a sign of the Flash being where he needed to end up and it wouldn't be weird. Candice is on the show as the hero's LI, her longevity on the show depends on that status. She doesn't have a comic book destiny that merits an origin story like Laurel on Arrow so she relies on being wanted onscreen more. Also, as you mentioned, CP is savvy and knew she was stepping in hot waters because half the people had already decided she was Laurel 2.0 (hmm...sound familiar?) and Caitlin was Felicity 2.0 which is complete and utter bullshit. [side note: So glad people pulled their heads out of their asses long enough to look past their differing genitalia and see that Cisco is the Felicity of the Flash.] The other half might have other problems like she is her own person and wasn't introduced as a simpering damsel pining after Barry or maybe melanin, who the hell knows. Anyway, she knew she had to court people to her side from the offset and her position is a lot more fan dependent that Nicole's is. Nicole did not come into the show under that cloud, signed up for an action packed role and is a lead in her own right. Courting shippers is meaningless for her. If the show stays afloat because of shippers only; it will slowly sink anyway because keeping shippers happy all the time is impossible and tending to every whim of the viewers' is the best way to crash and burn. If the viewership is mostly shippers, or simply people who keep up to see if they get together, they probably don't translate into long term fans so her post SH career is impacted neither positively nor negatively by their content/dissatisfaction. If they lose interest and the show gets cancelled, she will just get back to her previous status. Note also the difference in profile and filmography between the two actresses, NB has more thorough experience, has been on stage, TV and film. Sure they talk about twitter numbers getting people parts but I bet if we were to dig deeper, the trend would be that it's with people that haven't proved their worth on a part as big or are TV only teen-show stars, etc. So twitter is a good boost but there's only so far it can take someone and I believe Nicole is already further than that cut off point.

 

Also, let's be real, if her fans need her supporting the ship to continue liking her than they are simple fans of the ship not of Nicole. And even if they were die hard Nicole fans, it is not in her duty or even interest really to do everything to keep them happy. Her job is to give a performance. Everything else is icing. I don't know if there are as many  De Niro "fans" as there were Robert Pattinson "fans" during the dark days of Twilight's reign and yet there is no question who is the most successful, accomplished, talented and not to mention influential of the two. Heck taking two female performers, Charlize Theron pulls objectively more weight than J-Law and we know who has more fake twitters and fansites in her name. I could go on for a while with these types of comparisons but I'd like to think my  point is made.

Edited by fantique
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