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Wilowy

By Wilowy
in Criminal Minds

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Droogie
Droogie

I adored Hotch.  I think he was stoic and honorable and felt as though the weight of the world was on his shoulders.  And as Reid is my favorite character, it was always dear to me, how Hotch never le

Danielg342
Danielg342

They're called "normal clothes", and, yeah, I miss that too.

JMO
JMO

The discussion about the upcoming 'Derek', and the promo for that episode brought me back to our prior two agent kidnappings.  It seems like this current set of writers has become progressively more v

Bookish Jen

Bookish Jen

*gag*

And not in a good way.

 

I have some ideas on some fan fic, but I think I will share it on the fan fic thread. I actually started to write a treatment this morning. This idea started germinating in my brain a few weeks ago, and I think I might write it starting this summer. I might want to get some feedback first.

I am clearly not FA, but I'm pretty sure the work in question is either Twilight or Fifty Shades of Grey. And since the latter piggybacked into existence on the former, they're pretty interchangeable, IMO.

I giggled when I read piggybacked because it made me think of "Daddy Saddle," which is pretty darn legendary among these parts.

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Bookish Jen

Bookish Jen

there's a good way to gag?

Well, in the right context, I suppose.

 

Daniel, as for you fan fiction conversion concept, it sounds like you are on the right track. Obviously, you are inspired by the characters of CM but you give them some changes to make them different from the original recipes. You're showing some creativity. And believe me, there is no art or pop culture that is entirely original. Every writer, actor, artist, photographer, film maker, fashion designer, et al finds inspiration in other people, places and things.

 

As I mentioned I have a fan fiction idea featuring Spencer and a female character made of whole cloth. They meet in a way that seems rather odd (no, he does not hire a call girl nor is this a mindless hook up he meets at a bar), but slowly their initial encounter turns more intimate meeting of the mind and soul. They forge a certain close friendship via heart-to-heart conversations and this burns into a burgeoning romance leading into the physical, which will make both Spencer and this mystery lady ask themselves, "Can this work out in the real world after the odd way we met and ultimately connected?"

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zannej

zannej

On the casting director thing, on one hand, if the workshop actually teaches valid skills and helps prepare actors for things, then it might be worth the $. Now, if the casting director was not actively casting for a show and was just someone who had connections who could give his students a leg up so they could meet people, that would be nice as well. However, it depends on his hiring practices. Does he deliberately exclude people who don't pay for workshops or does he refuse to hire people who attend rival workshops?

If people had to go to his specific workshops in order to get hired, then there is a problem. I see that as a bit of a conflict of interest. I mean, I know that is the way it goes in Hollywood, but that doesn't excuse shitty behavior.

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Danielg342

Danielg342

Well, in the right context, I suppose.

Well, BDSM people would surely say "yes, there's a good way to gag".

As I mentioned I have a fan fiction idea featuring Spencer and a female character made of whole cloth. They meet in a way that seems rather odd (no, he does not hire a call girl nor is this a mindless hook up he meets at a bar), but slowly their initial encounter turns more intimate meeting of the mind and soul. They forge a certain close friendship via heart-to-heart conversations and this burns into a burgeoning romance leading into the physical, which will make both Spencer and this mystery lady ask themselves, "Can this work out in the real world after the odd way we met and ultimately connected?"

Sounds like you want to redo the Maeve storyline. I say go for it- CM's version sucked- and I'd love to read it.

Daniel, as for you fan fiction conversion concept, it sounds like you are on the right track. Obviously, you are inspired by the characters of CM but you give them some changes to make them different from the original recipes. You're showing some creativity. And believe me, there is no art or pop culture that is entirely original. Every writer, actor, artist, photographer, film maker, fashion designer, et al finds inspiration in other people, places and things.

Thank you. :) I should probably say that my CM conversions aren't the main characters in my current story series ("The Virus"), although I've toyed with the idea of a spin-off where they would be, at least in regards to the Coleman team just so I can write the Morgan CM never gave me.

My version of Hotch- Fitch- is going to be a prominent guy in "The Virus" though, because I find his struggle compelling. I must admit, I thought I'd get some flack for making him a gay guy with insecurities (since a "weak man" isn't masculine), but I did that because I'd rather have a strong character, and a strong character needs a challenge to grow from and eventually overcome.

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yuruhee

yuruhee

Speaking of CM fanfiction that becomes published, there is a web story series called Shadow Unit that is like a cross of Criminal Mind and X-Files. Do you know about it? the writing is very good, even though I can't always appreciate it because I'm not fluent, and because it's finished since 2014 you don't have to wait long times for updates. The characters are similar to CM but with enough difference, and also more racially and sexually diverse. One of the authors is Elizabeth Bear and a quote of hers was used in a Criminal Minds episode at the beginning once! The cases are also very interesting because of the unique parts thats been added. I admit, I like it more than even seasons one to five of CM sometimes...

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Bookish Jen

Bookish Jen

Considering Hollywood is rife with corrupt practices that industry people look the other way on, for all of this to be investigated and the casting director fired, it must have been pretty bad.

I agree. Show business is filled with sketchy and nasty people. But they often get away with detestable behavior because they have a lots of power within the industry and can make or break someone. I read somewhere that in LA, people don't really have friendships or relationships; they have networks and you really have to be careful and watch your back. Shudder.

 

Then again, that could be said for a lot of industries-finance, business, media, fashion, education, non-profit, etc. And not just in LA but even in a mid-sized Midwestern city like Milwaukee. I've done some freelance writing for many years, and there is a publisher who I found out the hard way is all about herself and everyone else is expendable. But I keep my opinions about her close to my vest because she really holds a lot of clout when it comes to the local press.

 

That being said, there are some good people who truly want to help others. Ten years ago, when MySpace was still a thing, Jenna Fischer, who played Pam on The Office, wrote about being a fledgling actress in LA on her MySpace page. She was not shy about the good, bad and the ugly that goes on in the industry. She mentioned two books that helped her career, one being the iconic The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron. The other book's name escapes me but it offered tangible advice on the audition process. And Ms. Fischer offered her own tips that helped her with her auditions and how cool it was to have an audition go well or the defeat she felt when auditions fell flat.

 

And she also talked about some of the truly ugly treatment she got during some auditions to the point she named names! During one audition the casting director wanted her to do something truly revolting and degrading. Ms. Fischer refused, and this pig told her she would never make it as an actress and pretty much insulted her throughout the auditioning process. She mentioned this horrid man's name in her post and called him a "Fuckface." Granted, a girl doesn't want to burn bridges, but sometimes you have to call people out on their shit.

 

Though I'm not an actress I thought Ms. Fischer's post was so generous and kind. She could have been all, "I got mine; screw the rest of you." But she chose not to.

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JMO

JMO

So, I'm working from home this PM, and I have CM on in the background.  The episode is 'Plain Sight', and there is a toddler sobbing and begging, "Let me out!".  This is not acting.  This kid is in distress.  

 

How many times have you seen some program, or film, that assures you that 'no animals were hurting during filming'?  But it's okay to put a toddler through trauma for a scene in a TV show?  Really??  

 

Ugh.

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Cobalt Stargazer

Cobalt Stargazer

(edited)

How many times have you seen some program, or film, that assures you that 'no animals were hurting during filming'?  But it's okay to put a toddler through trauma for a scene in a TV show?  Really??  

 

Ugh.

 

JMO, this is slightly tongue-in-cheek, but this article came out when the movie John Wick was released.

 

http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/how-many-dead-mobsters-would-you-trade-for-a-puppy-on-the-moral-calculus-of-john-wick/

Edited by Cobalt Stargazer
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Cobalt Stargazer

Cobalt Stargazer

Also, three random things:

 

Why is there such loud music near the end of Broken Mirror? It's supposed to be really suspenseful because they're about to reveal the UnSub, but the background music is so loud that it's just odd.

 

Is Elle wearing a man's wristwatch in Plain Sight? You can't always see it because in some scenes she's wearing a jacket, but in the scenes where she doesn't have a jacket on her watch is big and chunky-looking, like a guy's.

 

The asshole doctor in L.D.S.K. just winked at Elle when he came in and dropped off the bullet he removed from one of the shooting victims, and her 'Not on  your best day" look is making me laugh.

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smoker

smoker

So, I'm working from home this PM, and I have CM on in the background.  The episode is 'Plain Sight', and there is a toddler sobbing and begging, "Let me out!".  This is not acting.  This kid is in distress.  

 

How many times have you seen some program, or film, that assures you that 'no animals were hurting during filming'?  But it's okay to put a toddler through trauma for a scene in a TV show?  Really??  

 

Ugh.

 

it's wrong and there are a lot of rules and a person watching everything is done properly, at least in USA.

I remember watching the making off of Dracula in early 90's and Coppola had a lot of trouble filming the scene  with the baby and vampire Lucy.

The funny thing is, Eastwood used a babydoll filming American sniper and it was...pathetic.

I guess we must trust in that person who watch babies and children rights.

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Cobalt Stargazer

Cobalt Stargazer

it's wrong and there are a lot of rules and a person watching everything is done properly, at least in USA.

I remember watching the making off of Dracula in early 90's and Coppola had a lot of trouble filming the scene  with the baby and vampire Lucy.

The funny thing is, Eastwood used a babydoll filming American sniper and it was...pathetic.

I guess we must trust in that person who watch babies and children rights.

 

I actually posted in the Only On TV thread in another section of the forums that only on TV does childbirth amount to, "Wow, look at this six-month old baby I found between your legs." And there are laws and such in place as to ages and how many hours a child actor can work and that they have to have a parent or some other responsible adult present. It's clearly not a perfect system, but they do try to not deliberately hurt the kids.

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Danielg342

Danielg342

I actually posted in the Only On TV thread in another section of the forums that only on TV does childbirth amount to, "Wow, look at this six-month old baby I found between your legs." And there are laws and such in place as to ages and how many hours a child actor can work and that they have to have a parent or some other responsible adult present. It's clearly not a perfect system, but they do try to not deliberately hurt the kids.

 

I personally have no problem with that. Some things, I think, you just have to understand are just not going to happen because it's the right thing to do.

 

Sure, in a perfect world- at least the writer's perfect world- we'd be able to subject kids to all kinds of horrors and terrors and mangle them up real good just like we do with adults. However, an adult actor is mature enough and psychologically prepared enough to be able to withstand a harrowing episode like that. A kid isn't. So while it may be "realistic" to have your serial killer turn seven-year-olds into Swiss cheese (because people have, sadly, done it) it's just not proper from an ethical standpoint.

 

Even in my own writing I have to do things a bit differently. I write about a human trafficking ring, and, as much as I'd like to use a 14-year-old girl as one of the poor victims, I'd probably run afoul of a few laws, not to mention squick out my audience more than I need to. So everyone is at least 18.

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MMC

MMC

I feel so wrong. I couldn't stand Elle :-( on the show. Actually like her better in CoStar's world.  I don't know why either! I have nothing against Lola Glaudini. I just don't...and I don't know why. There's no logic.

Don't feel bad you aren't the only one who didn't like her. As for myself I was and still am a fan of Elle's.In fact these days I appreciate her even more. I compare her to some of the CM females of today and I find her to be a wonder breath of fresh air.Of course there is really no way of telling how I'd feel about her today had MESSer and these writers had gotten their hands on the character of Elle. I suppose I should be glad she was spared this so called different kind of character assassination that has been going on at the hands of MESSer and these writers. Sadly none of the other CM characters have been spared. In fact one of my biggest fears is if PG/EP somehow returns to CM even on a semi regular basis that sooner or later MESSer and these writers will turn me against that character too,much the same way they have turned me against JJ and Garcia.

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Cobalt Stargazer

Cobalt Stargazer

I feel so wrong. I couldn't stand Elle :-( on the show. Actually like her better in CoStar's world.  I don't know why either! I have nothing against Lola Glaudini. I just don't...and I don't know why. There's no logic.

 

Firstly, thank you for the compliment, ReidFan. Considering that you don't ship Spelle, I consider it high praise that I've managed to win you over at least about Elle herself. :-)

 

And as MMC says, I think the folks here who like her do so partly because she left so early in the game that no one had the chance to screw up her character. Even if you think of her shooting William Lee as something she could never come back from, it came out of what happened to her at the end of the first season rather than some bogus happy ending where she gets over what happened in five minutes and never talks about it again. And had Glaudini not made the decision that she wanted to go home to New York, the writers could have found a way for Elle to stick around. Particularly how lax the do's and don't's became in later seasons.

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ReidFan

ReidFan

geez, CoStar,  re: 'I don't ship Spelle'......in the context of the show no, you're right,  because they're coworkers. But in your world, she is long out of the BAU so she's no longer a coworker and already a friend of his so it would be entirely believable for there to be Reid/Greenaway  in the AU (and when it's well written, as yours are, that's why I'll actually read 'em and suspend my meh ) The only hurdles now are 1. distance apart (although we really don't know where she is, as far as the show is concerned) and 2. the age difference/he wants children. And this is where Reid/Prentiss and/or Reid/Greenaway falls apart --those women (the characters-Prentiss definitely too old, Greenaway, not as established but I always thought she was at least 30 already in the show) are both past child bearing age and/or never indicated an interest in having any. 

 

and this is also why MarySue wouldn't work... Reid/Reidfan. I'm too old for him :)

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MMC

MMC

(edited)

 

Firstly, thank you for the compliment, ReidFan. Considering that you don't ship Spelle, I consider it high praise that I've managed to win you over at least about Elle herself. :-)

 

And as MMC says, I think the folks here who like her do so partly because she left so early in the game that no one had the chance to screw up her character. Even if you think of her shooting William Lee as something she could never come back from, it came out of what happened to her at the end of the first season rather than some bogus happy ending where she gets over what happened in five minutes and never talks about it again. And had Glaudini not made the decision that she wanted to go home to New York, the writers could have found a way for Elle to stick around. Particularly how lax the do's and don't's became in later seasons.

This plus the fact it was rather clear to most of us as to why it went down this way.We could even envision ways we felt it might have been prevented.Such as Hotch recognizing she clearly wasn't ready to be put back out on the field.Or perhaps wishing that Reid had actually talked to someone about her instead of regretting that he hadn't after it was too late.Or that he would have been able to get through to her himself.And Reid's regret for not having talked to anyone about Elle is one of biggest reason I was so pissed off at Breen about the way he had Reid handle the situation with JJ and her issues.Reid of all people should have went to Hotch whether JJ liked it or not because of his past experience with Elle.But I am guessing the man with the eidetic memory must have forgotten about the regret he felt the last time he failed to talk to his superior about a co worker.

 

But how in the bleep are we suppose to envision how things could have been different if we can't even entirely understand why it took place in the first place.Case in point the whole dirty dozen arc.To this day it makes no sense it all that these hit men saw Penelope enough of a threat to their organization that she needed to be taken down.And what about Morgan's exit arc do we really have all that clear of a picture as to why he was targeted the way he was.

 

I know that there are probably people who are face palming over the whole scenario for the season finale lamenting the fact that yet again we have another team member in peril.Of course in Hotches case it has more to do with his livelihood and his reputation and possibly his freedom were he to end up in jail as oppose to his actual life.But, I do understand where they are coming from and in many ways I share that sentiment.However for me it isn't so much a team member being in peril, as it is that these days they usually end up that way do to some idiotic nonsensical story line MESSer & CO came up with.And no more has this been more evident than the ridiculous story line the came up with for JJ in 200 that put her in such peril.

Edited by MMC
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SSAHotchner

SSAHotchner

Don't feel bad you aren't the only one who didn't like her. As for myself I was and still am a fan of Elle's.In fact these days I appreciate her even more. I compare her to some of the CM females of today and I find her to be a wonder breath of fresh air.Of course there is really no way of telling how I'd feel about her today had MESSer and these writers had gotten their hands on the character of Elle. I suppose I should be glad she was spared this so called different kind of character assassination that has been going on at the hands of MESSer and these writers. Sadly none of the other CM characters have been spared. In fact one of my biggest fears is if PG/EP somehow returns to CM even on a semi regular basis that sooner or later MESSer and these writers will turn me against that character too,much the same way they have turned me against JJ and Garcia.

I think I've grown to like Elle more and more as the seasons progress. One thing in her favor is that the writing was just so much better when she was on the show. But I love her humor and strength and that she asks questions to learn from Gideon and Hotch. I love that she treats Reid with respect and as an equal. She never talks down to him or rolls her eyes when he talks. My favorite female agent is Prentiss, but Elle is close behind her. 

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smoker

smoker

(edited)

I love Elle since day 1, and I like Prentiss, early Prentiss, but Elle is my fav, she's a great female character and there are not many of those around (this show and others).

 

For example, I hate Emily's mother, after the background they gave us it was a poor characterization. Anyway, I guess it's trendy be an ambassador and that's why Rossi is getting one too, and she seems as poor of character as Prentiss' mother.  I think a Marseillaise waitress had suited him more, she would have had a lot more character, no doubt of that. Every time I think about it, I wish the woman playing the ambassador on Homeland made an appearance on CM, it was a great character and a great actress. I think, another mistake was exchange Strauss vixen character by the lonely drunk granny she become later on.

 

Of course, some of you are right, we'll never know what Messer would have done to Elle. But don't worry, She still could kill her :(

 

I remember Sean Hotchner and Elle Greenaway being my favourite characters to recur, after brothers Hotchner, I am glad Elle never came back.

Edited by smoker
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Bookish Jen

Bookish Jen

I think I've grown to like Elle more and more as the seasons progress. One thing in her favor is that the writing was just so much better when she was on the show. But I love her humor and strength and that she asks questions to learn from Gideon and Hotch. I love that she treats Reid with respect and as an equal. She never talks down to him or rolls her eyes when he talks. My favorite female agent is Prentiss, but Elle is close behind her. 

I can't love this enough. I adore Elle (duh, as all of you know). For the most part she was a professional. She had a thin layer of Brooklyn-Bred Tough Girl, but beneath that veneer was her humor and strength as you mention, but also warmth, empathy and vulnerability that made her so compelling. I also loved her willingness to go to the lengths to prove she was worthy of being a part of the BAU staff. She was not genius like Reid but she had the capabilities to look things up and do her homework.

 

And then there was the wonderful way she treated Spencer, like the professional and grown man he was and still is. She was never condescending towards him, and truly appreciated his knowledge and skills he brought to the BAU. And the hinted compassion she showed him in LDSK when he failed his gun qualifications was truly a touching moment. She wasn't dismissiveness of Spencer's anger at himself. With just one subtle look she conveyed, "You will get this."

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ReidFan

ReidFan

I'll have to watch LDSK again and try and see that cause, yikes, I didn't see it that way at all.....My take was always that she deliberately mentioned he'd failed again to Morgan specifically, knowing that Morgan tease the hell out of him, making him feel even worse  with that stupid whistle bit (This scene alone is why I hated Morgan so much early on). 

 

That, and when he's shooting at the beginning and they show the target with the crotch all shot up, and Hotch says "Did Elle teach you that?" is the kinda thing that made me dislike her so much.

 

Someone else pointed out that Morgan's intent was to incite Reid's determination to get better at shooting, hence the touche at the end when Reid flips the whistle back at him. But to me, Reid still seems kinda mad at him about it, so I just don't know.

 

looks like I shall have to start watching again, from season one, episode one. 

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normasm

normasm

Reidfan, Elle was totally supportive of Reid and knew that Morgan would tease him about his failure, so she said, "let's not mention it" in front of Gideon, and Gideon agreed. She thought that would make Morgan behave, but as soon as Reid comes in and Gideon is gone, Morgan acts like the nine-year-old boy we know he was. Just look at the way Elle looks at him afterward.

 

And in Derailed, in the aftermath, when Reid and Elle are sitting in the trunk of that car laughing and joking, him patting her leg and telling her to go get checked out, it's a sweet moment, but catch where she's subtly trying to ask about the statement he made to Bryar about "knowing what it's like." She definitely feels concern for him, as well as respect.

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Bookish Jen

Bookish Jen

Reidfan, Elle was totally supportive of Reid and knew that Morgan would tease him about his failure, so she said, "let's not mention it" in front of Gideon, and Gideon agreed. She thought that would make Morgan behave, but as soon as Reid comes in and Gideon is gone, Morgan acts like the nine-year-old boy we know he was. Just look at the way Elle looks at him afterward.

 

And in Derailed, in the aftermath, when Reid and Elle are sitting in the trunk of that car laughing and joking, him patting her leg and telling her to go get checked out, it's a sweet moment, but catch where she's subtly trying to ask about the statement he made to Bryar about "knowing what it's like." She definitely feels concern for him, as well as respect.

Beautifully put.

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SSAHotchner

SSAHotchner

I'll have to watch LDSK again and try and see that cause, yikes, I didn't see it that way at all.....My take was always that she deliberately mentioned he'd failed again to Morgan specifically, knowing that Morgan tease the hell out of him, making him feel even worse  with that stupid whistle bit (This scene alone is why I hated Morgan so much early on). 

 

That, and when he's shooting at the beginning and they show the target with the crotch all shot up, and Hotch says "Did Elle teach you that?" is the kinda thing that made me dislike her so much.

 

Someone else pointed out that Morgan's intent was to incite Reid's determination to get better at shooting, hence the touche at the end when Reid flips the whistle back at him. But to me, Reid still seems kinda mad at him about it, so I just don't know.

 

looks like I shall have to start watching again, from season one, episode one. 

No, Elle was totally sensitive to Reid's feelings and (IMO) Morgan was a jerk. 

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ReidFan

ReidFan

see, I thought Morgan was a jerk too, SSAHotch. But a MorganFan friend of mine was going on about how he did that whistle thing intentionally, with the big brother thought that it would help toughen Reid up (which of course I also took the 'wrong' way, "HE's NOT A BABY!!! Morgan's just being a JERK!" cause Reid has always been portrayed as a sensitive type. (and Morgan's always been portrayed more alpha male like) Friend thought Morgan doing that, but still having Reid's back, would help Reid grow..... I dunno. I'm with you, I thought Morgan was being a jerk there (one of many times. Don't get me wrong, like the guy enough, but there were times, like this one, where I would have happily tossed him to the alligators)

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MMC

MMC

And how about the way Elle confiscated that camera in the episode "Somebody's Watching" and then immediately began to destroy the film while the paparazzi guy protested. She did it to protect Reid. Because she knew were it ever to have come public what him and Lila had been doing in the pool there could have very well been consequences for Reid.Because he was on the job and was expected to behave appropriately. And what had been going on in that pool would hardly have been deemed appropriate by his superior. And I don't think they would've excused him just because Lila was the one who initiated the whole thing.Mind you now I am not blaming Lila. She probably couldn't help herself. I am just pointing out that she was the one who pursued him.

 

Okay I can see Gideon and Hotch maybe giving Reid a pass and perhaps having a little talk with him about it.But Reid has other superiors and I highly doubt they'd have been as understanding.

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Danielg342

Danielg342

I never liked the whistle thing with Morgan, but I felt Morgan made up for if by realizing he was wrong about it (hence the "touché" at the end).

I also loved the crotch shots...I thought Elle was pretty badass to point the gun at Vincent Shier's junk instead of his head. I can safely say no man EVER wants to lose his manhood, especially a narcissist like Shier. That's just great profiling there.

I also think it's a great statement about the reality of serial killers- often they hunt women because they feel emasculated, so Elle playing to that made a strong point.

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Droogie

Droogie

(edited)

and I maintain, he should have gone after Reid when Reid 'stormed off' and apologised like a man.

So many instances over the seasons, when an apology to Reid for some infraction would have been the next natural step. Our boy is quite resilient and forgiving, though. Not sure I'd have been as much, in the same circumstances,

Edited by Droogie
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ForeverAlone

ForeverAlone

Elle mentioned that Reid failed his shooting exam, but she specifically told Morgan not to bring it up to him, because Reid would be embarrassed. Considering how respectful she always was towards Reid, I can't imagine she would actually want him to be teased in any way. And I don't think that humiliating someone is a good tactic to try and make someone improve, especially with someone like Reid, who really struggled with self confidence in those early years. 

  • Love 2
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