Dean Winchester: aka Squirrel

[catrox14]

Oh that's right. I got the timeline wonky. I keep thinking Dean fought Cole before Sam saw him. But yeah. I still think Dean knew he could heal himself before the hand slicing. I mean he has been in fight after fight. He knew Cain wouldn't die. And Dean isn't stupid so I think he could piece that together pretty easily.

 

Gods. Show.  Please give me more of how Dean handled waking up and being a demon. Because seriously. How the frak do you not give us that?? I mean sure I care about it afterward, but I can't believe Dean just woke up and was all 'YAAAAAASSS  PARTY TIME for demon!Dean".  I mean he clearly knew it's a problem hence the note to Sam.

 

I just have ZERO faith in Carver and company to give us that part of Dean's story.

[SueB]

 

As much as I like the show not tell, the show is not showing enough about what the Mark is doing to Dean after the fact. And they are not talking about it either in clear terms.  So I'm left thinking

 

1) Dean is too weak from being undemon'd to fight back

2) Dean is too afraid to have some really horrible side come out again

3) Dean is not really affected by the Mark at all anymore and just isn't the same hunter now, which would be the second worst thing the show will have done to him.

4) Is Dean supposed to be suffering PTSD?

Just freaking tell us. A decent line of dialogue.  Man. It's aggravating.

I'll post more in the episode thread, but I think the short answer is there is some hesitation, alluded to but not directly vocalized, that Dean killing with the Mark of Cain may put him into a tailspin.  It's like the elephant in the room that they sort of haven't talked about yet. 

[2Old2BAFangirl]

I'm not sure on the demon healing themselves thing but way back when, Meg was totally healed pretty fast after she fell out of the window in S1.  The Meg demon was able to heal the meatsuit and walk right on over to where the Winchesters were fighting the shadow monster/daega things.  It wasn't until they exorcised the demon from human Meg that she started bleeding.  Of course, to make it even more confusing, Bobby says something about killing human Meg if they exorcised the demon so apparently the healing only works for as long as the demon inhabits the meatsuit?

Haha!!  I'm actually looking for some continuity on Supernatural!! :)

[Wynterwolf]

I'll post more in the episode thread, but I think the short answer is there is some hesitation, alluded to but not directly vocalized, that Dean killing with the Mark of Cain may put him into a tailspin.  It's like the elephant in the room that they sort of haven't talked about yet. 

 

That was my sense too, that the moment when Dean kills again will be a significant one, because no one knows what will happen and how/if the MoC will react to that.  

[SueB]

 

That was my sense too, that the moment when Dean kills again will be a significant one, because no one knows what will happen and how/if the MoC will react to that.

Exactly.  Rewatching the ep again last night this became even more evident.  Especially with the conversation while still at the lakeside when Sam said "If at any time..." implying that there's an unspoken concern of Dean going out of control.  Then Sam steps in later to suggest he be the one to kill Kate. So... Dean's arm was deflected from killing the new werewolf and Sam immediate took on the kill.  Did Dean hesitate because of previous conversations?  I think his arm got deflected, Sam acted quick, and Dean is not moving at his usual efficient fashion because he's thinking about each kill.  Just speculating but that Sam made the kill seems an obvious plot point.  

 

Sometimes they are over the top, sometimes they are more subtle.  I think we had enough references to concerns about Dean being "ready" combined with Sam trying to take the kill (with Kate), that the first time Dean kills is a concern for both.

[catrox14]

Sometimes they are over the top, sometimes they are more subtle. I think we had enough references to concerns about Dean being "ready" combined with Sam trying to take the kill (with Kate), that the first time Dean kills is a concern for both.

Exactly.  Rewatching the ep again last night this became even more evident.  Especially with the conversation while still at the lakeside when Sam said "If at any time..." implying that there's an unspoken concern of Dean going out of control.  Then Sam steps in later to suggest he be the one to kill Kate. So... Dean's arm was deflected from killing the new werewolf and Sam immediate took on the kill.  Did Dean hesitate because of previous conversations?  I think his arm got deflected, Sam acted quick, and Dean is not moving at his usual efficient fashion because he's thinking about each kill.  Just speculating but that Sam made the kill seems an obvious plot point.  

 

Sometimes they are over the top, sometimes they are more subtle.  I think we had enough references to concerns about Dean being "ready" combined with Sam trying to take the kill (with Kate), that the first time Dean kills is a concern for both.

I think this is one of the times that needed more dialogue to explain what exactly Sam and Dean were concerned about. It could ave been that Dean is still a demon. Or That Dean is still feeling the bloodlust or that he was worried about being ineffective. I just thought it was mysterious for no reason other than to have a parallel and an excuse to bring back

a werewolf I never wanted to see again.

[Aeryn13]

So, is this something we have to look forward to then, Dean freezing up all the time now? Because with no storyline, I at the very least expected him to still be a badass but if it`s just loser hunter scenes from here on out with Sam being flipping onto the scene to take care of everything, gone is even the last miniscule reason to watch the show. Seriously, Dean being a badass is all I had left (or I thought I would anyway).   

[catrox14]

So, is this something we have to look forward to then, Dean freezing up all the time now? Because with no storyline, I at the very least expected him to still be a badass but if it`s just loser hunter scenes from here on out with Sam being flipping onto the scene to take care of everything, gone is even the last miniscule reason to watch the show. Seriously, Dean being a badass is all I had left (or I thought I would anyway).   

 

Seriously. I don't understand one little bit WTF they are doing with Dean. Honest to gods. Taking this to the bitterness thread

[SueB]

 

Seriously. I don't understand one little bit WTF they are doing with Dean. Honest to gods.

I can't follow you into bitterness today so I'll just give you my two cents here.

 

Dean has defined himself as only being good at slitting throats.  When Cain said they were kindred spirits, Dean said "You mean a killer." Well IMO, while Dean is Hella-good at killing, he's MORE than that.  He's taken his "saving people, hunting things, the family business" approach towards life and turned it into "killing monsters is what we do." Literally he has said this quote twice.

 

So, IMO, for Dean to grown, he needs to get back to Job #1 is Saving People. And yes, hunting things typically means killing monsters but he needs to get some perspective back on WHY he does what he does. How can Dean have any freaking joy in life if his missing statement is "killing monsters"? So, if for a few episode, he's a little afraid to just going back to slicing throats and being Stabby McStabberson, I'm okay with it.  What if he TRIED to exorcise the freaking demon rather than kill kill? I'm not saying never kill. I'm saying kill because you have to. Not because you like it.  The Mark makes him LIKE killing more than he used to ('nothing wrong with enjoying my job', AAAA). 

 

I don't think Dean is going to turn pacifist. Not remotely. But perhaps reestablishing a different pattern than ready, kill, aim.  If they had killed Kate, they wouldn't have found Tasha (the second time).  Certainly there are times you need to be an efficient fighter. But a skosh more caution when you have the LUXURY of time to use that caution is a habit Dean should re-invigorate.

 

I'm not remotely worried that Dean will permanently loose his BadAss card. 

[catrox14]

does what he does. How can Dean have any freaking joy in life if his missing statement is "killing monsters"? S

 

I guess I never saw Dean as having forgotten that he saves people too. I thought it was the guilt over Kevin and the Gadreel incident that drove him to call himself poison, hence the willingness to not look to closely at what the MoC would do to him.  But I still think he knows what it's like to save people and that it matters. But again I just don't get why they aren't just going right after that stuff NOW. 

[Aeryn13]

 

So, if for a few episode, he's a little afraid to just going back to slicing throats and being Stabby McStabberson, I'm okay with it.

 

I`m not. If they do it like in this episode where he looks like he never won a fight in his life while the sun shines out of Sam`s ass, one episode is already ten too many for me. MORE episodes of that? Ain`t no bucket big enough. 

 

And since I don`t think they are going to play it psychologically but just as an excuse for Dean-bashing - in the ONE area where I figured we would be spared it - no thanks.

 

They said before that Dean would have to "relearn" what it means to be a hero. Well, having him learn what it means to be a failure and Deansel in distress is not the way to go because look at the end of this episode he was right back to good old self-loathing Dean. And since Sam keeps quiet to that each time, I say we are also back to the one thing Dean needs is freaking successes. He needs to accomplish things, not fail at things. HE doesn`t get to blame-shift his failure or get pep talks from being like Death on how great he is, so it needs to just come from him. 

[Wynterwolf]

So, IMO, for Dean to grown, he needs to get back to Job #1 is Saving People. And yes, hunting things typically means killing monsters but he needs to get some perspective back on WHY he does what he does. How can Dean have any freaking joy in life if his missing statement is "killing monsters"? So, if for a few episode, he's a little afraid to just going back to slicing throats and being Stabby McStabberson, I'm okay with it.  

 

 

Heh, apparently we are brain-sharing SueB, which seems appropriate for Halloween, I guess.  I have felt his sense of 'saving people' has been slowly (and sometimes more quickly) eroding for a long time.  

 

And I feel like this is what Cole's main purpose is, to be a mirror for Dean (since they do love their mirrors) to be a catalyst for his introspection on just what does it mean to him now, to be a hunter.  

 

 

They said before that Dean would have to "relearn" what it means to be a hero. Well, having him learn what it means to be a failure and Deansel in distress is not the way to go because look at the end of this episode he was right back to good old self-loathing Dean.

 

This is what actually has me somewhat excited for this arc, though, and particularly for how they handled it last ep... because I don't think Dean has ever been able to deal with failure in a way that would let him grow stronger from it.  Failure has always meant weakness to him, but there will always be failure.  Failure is what drives us forward, but for Dean, his sense of failure (whether real or imagined) has always been what has broken him down.  I'd love to see him finally figure out how to deal with failure in a (at lease somewhat) more healthy way, so he can learn how to not lose perspective from it (and go all demon!Dean again).  

[Aeryn13]

 

I'd love to see him finally figure out how to deal with failure in a (at lease somewhat) more healthy way, so he can learn how to not lose perspective from it (and go all demon!Dean again).

 

However, the things is if you experience nothing BUT failure, people do tend to drown in it. It is the most normal reaction in the world. And it`s actually the reason why Dean developed this complex in the first place, that he was made to feel like he does nothing but fail, fail, fail. People need successes to even be able to handle failures, too. 

 

I see nothing positive whatsoever if Dean can`t even handle himself in a fight anymore and needs to be saved by Sam Superman Winchester all the time now. It`s the antithesis of every story about empowerment really. And it`s detrimental between them because frankly I think Sam feels empowered by that, whenever he thinks he is on a "stronger, smarter, better" swing over his brother who just can`t handle things.

 

And if we`re going back to the horrifying days of 50s housewife!Dean now who is only good for cooking and drawing Sam ice baths while the true big hero saves the day, that is even less merciful than what Demon!Dean did to Cole. Killing would far preferable to it because all regular!Dean would get from it is once again to "learn his place" as a good little sidekick.  

 

 

Failure has always meant weakness to him

 

Well, I think that is just because it`s kinda true. Failing is because you were somehow lacking in some way. Now I`m not saying you need to render your garments all the time in the wake of failure because everyone fails at something (except Mary Sues in narratives) but down to the bares bones, I see it the same way about strength/success and weakness/failure.   

Edited October 31, 2014 by Aeryn13

[Wynterwolf]

However, the things is if you experience nothing BUT failure, people do tend to drown in it. It is the most normal reaction in the world. And it`s actually the reason why Dean developed this complex in the first place, that he was made to feel like he does nothing but fail, fail, fail. People need successes to even be able to handle failures, too. 

 

Dean hasn't experienced only failure though, but it is definitely what he dwells on, in large part I think, because he's terrified of it, and has never learned how to use it as a tool.  There is a quote by Michael Jordan (sorry for the sports reference!):

 

I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed.

 

 

I don't think Dean has developed this complex because he's failed... everybody fails, failing is part of living and it's a vital part of success.  He's developed it, over a very long time, because of fear and I think that's why he lost his way... and became a demon.  

[Aeryn13]

 

Dean hasn't experienced only failure though, but it is definitely what he dwells on

 

Because it`s what the writers dwell on these days. I don`t think they even consider him a hero from the most part. And that comes from the top, Kripke, at least, IMO seemed to view him as a heroic sidekick. WhereasGamble and Carver just have no patience for the character.

 

It is the same with Dean`s speech in Trial and Error about being a grunt and good for nothing but maybe taking on this mission and die at the end. That got played as "oh, he has no self worth so Sam needs to show him the light". And Sam made up a pretty little speech on how Dean is a great hunter, knows the lore and bla bla. Yet what did the episode show? Him failing as a hunter. What did the next few episodes go out of their way to show? Him not knowing a single bit of lore. And then? Sam told him to wait up like a good little boy while he took on the next trial. Meaning Dean ended up in the kitchen again.

 

If that had happened in the reverse, Sam - and the show - would have considered it the biggest insult known to man. "Why don`t ou trust me, waaah". Not to mention Head!Sam confirmed to himself in the Season 9 Premiere  how useless little Dean really did NOTHING to help in the 2nd trial. He was equally made out to be useless in the third.

 

You can`t have on the one hand have a character make a speech that is supposed to show how they have no self worth and then go out of your way to show that everything he said is kinda right. So in the end Dean believes what the writers believe about him.

 

They had Sam give him the "you are a cowardly sucker in denial about being a hero" speech and that got played as "harsh truths". So why would the character not have low self esteem? Apparently,, he still thinks too highly of himself, according to the writers.

 

And one of the very few areas where he had a modicum of self esteem left, his ability as a fighter is the next to go. Maybe he is supposed to learn how he sucks at EVERYTHING now and how Sam is the epitome of perfection. Because the writing right now would make sense for this and if more were to come of it, I wouldn`t be surprised.

 

But the show getting hypocritically on Dean`s case for thinking he has no worth while pretty much stating in text that he has none? Bah, humbug. 

[Wynterwolf]

It is the same with Dean`s speech in Trial and Error about being a grunt and good for nothing but maybe taking on this mission and die at the end. 

 

Dean definitely is his own worst enemy, and I think his fatalist attitude might be too ingrained at this point for even a steady string of successes to cure.  The elephant (which in my mind is still his fear more than anything else), would still be sitting patiently in the corner of the room, and unless he deals with that on his own terms, he'd still be in danger of reverting the first time he tasted a sense of failure again.  

 

And even if he does get a handle on his fear, I could see this as being something he'd always have to guard against.  Which for me is a big part of what makes him (and Jensen's portrayal of him), such an amazingly fascinating character.  But mileage definitely varies on how to interpret what is portrayed on screen, and I don't believe there is any one 'right' way to interpret what's happening.  

[Wynne88]

And I feel like this is what Cole's main purpose is, to be a mirror for Dean (since they do love their mirrors) to be a catalyst for his introspection on just what does it mean to him now, to be a hunter.

 

I hadn't thought of that, but I bet you're right!  Cole is another John Winchester in the making, although his kid is lucky enough to get to stay home with mama.

 

Sam told him to wait up like a good little boy while he took on the next trial. Meaning Dean ended up in the kitchen again.

If that had happened in the reverse, Sam - and the show - would have considered it the biggest insult known to man. "Why don`t ou trust me, waaah".

 

But that DID happen in reverse, when Dean deliberately sidelined Sam first to kill Abaddon, then to go after Metatron.  The second time was really a slap in the face, since Sam had already agreed to play it Dean's way, even if it meant Dean's death (and at the time, I think he was sincere).  But the story needed him out of the way so Dean could have that face-to-face confrontation, and although it offended me for the sake of the character, I eventually understood it was done that way for the sake of the story.  

 

As far as Sam being the great hero-hunter simply because he killed the vampire that Dean was struggling with, how many times has Dean saved Sam in similar circumstances?  I can remember a number of times where gigantor Sam was being strangled or threatened by a gun or knife and big brother came to the rescue.  This is one of the rare times when it's gone the other way, so I'm okay with it.  

 

There's been a lot of discussions over the last few years about how both Sam and Dean needed to grow up and quit going in circles character-wise.  These last couple episodes are the first concerted effort I've seen to make that happen for both of them, so I hope they follow through.  I'm not sure where they plan to take it, but I'm absolutely sure a wimpy, house-wife-ey Dean isn't going to be the end result. 

[catrox14]

I really disagree that Dean was always a fatalist or can'tthe handle failure in a general sense. That became a thing in s5 but was undone with A GED an d give em hell attitude. . Dean can't handle failing the mission of Save Sammy.

It seems like they are trying to rebuild Sam's reputation and have had to deconstruct Dean to do it. I think they needed Sam to be a hero and save Dean after he didn't look for him in s8. The problem is with what they aren't showing. If I were a new viewer I would think okay so this guy was a demon but without being a demon he is toothless?

If this is what tptb are deciding is a redemption arc for Dean then they need to remind us via flashbacks just how much of a badass and essentially a good person Dean was before all this shit happened to him, which only happened because Dean could not go beyond Save Sammy and did something he shouldn't have to save Sammy.

[Wynterwolf]

I really disagree that Dean was always a fatalist 

 

Oh, sorry I wasn't clear... I don't think he was always a fatalist either.  In fact I think he's quite optimistic at his core and determined to screw conventional wisdom and make his own path (and I think he can get back to that again, but he needs to gain some perspective on himself, and what his worth really is), but fear still rules a lot of his choices.  The fatalism has crept in over time, but for me part of the point of what's going on now is to watch him come back from that.  

[AwesomO4000]

And it`s actually the reason why Dean developed this complex in the first place, that he was made to feel like he does nothing but fail, fail, fail. People need successes to even be able to handle failures, too.

 

I agree with Wynterwolf on this one. Dean has had more successes than failures, but he dwells on the failures. It was a plot point in season 8 that even though Dean fought his way through purgatory - for a year - to find and rescue Castiel,  just because Castiel chose to stay behind for his own reasons, Dean somehow made himself believe that he (Dean) had failed somehow. Dean even changed what actually happened in his mind to accommodate that belief and make it his own fault. That's really messed up, in my opinion.

 

And apparently deep down Dean knows it's messed up, because Demon Dean had no problem pointing out to Sam that Dean has to "pull his lame ass out of the fire" constantly. I think Dean just doesn't want to deal with why he feels this way and would rather stuff it down, and until he does deal with it, it's going to continue to pop back up again no matter how many times he succeeds.

 

The amazing thing for me about Dean is that this is not more annoying - though that season 8 thing tried my patience - because it's like a beautiful, talented, popular girl who harps on the few stupid things she can't do like it's the worst thing in the world when most of those around her would like to do just one or two things the way she can. And no matter how many times they tell her she's good at things, she still thinks she's a failure. After enough time, I can image at some point they'd have a moment of weakness and just throw up their hands and say "You're right - you suck," because what's the point and they're tired of hearing it. Does that make either her or her friends bad people or failures? No: it makes them human, and I can see how each would react that way.

 

But that's my point, neither is at "fault" here, being shown as weak or right or what have you, in my opinion. If the writers wanted to make Dean a failure, then that would be easy... have him generally fail at something major, but he doesn't, so that's not in my opinion what they see him as. On the other hand, Sam fails at most of the major things he tries. Every once in a while he has a success, but mostly not, and he knows it - that's why Sam couldn't get out of that room fast enough when demon Dean was talking about having to save Sam all the time, and it's why he woundedly lashed out when he was trying to save Dean this time. And it was the reason for his breakdown at the end of season 8 - but he tries to deal with it. Sometimes Sam deals with it delusionally - hallucination Lucifer, hallucination Mary, hallucination Dean, and hallucination Death. Sometimes Sam tells himself he's better than he is and better than he knows he is, but is this any worse than delusionally telling yourself you're worse than you are? They're both problematical behaviors. They can both lead to failure. They're both messed up coping mechanisms of some sort. I just happen to be able to relate to one more than the other, but that doesn't mean I think that the other is wrong.

 

And it`s detrimental between them because frankly I think Sam feels empowered by that, whenever he thinks he is on a "stronger, smarter, better" swing over his brother who just can`t handle things.

 

So it's okay for Dean to have successes and therefor he'll feel better about himself, but if Sam has a rare success and feels better about himself, this is a bad thing? It's not Sam's fault if Dean decides to think he's a failure despite tons of evidence to the contrary. I don't think the solution here is for Sam to also feel like a failure. If Sam took every ribbing, insult, or criticism Dean threw his way to heart and let it crush him, I wouldn't blame Dean for it. I'd blame Sam. In my opinion, Dean's gotta believe in himself or no amount of praise or success is going to do any good, because with any set back, he'll turn it into a failure like he did with Castiel in season 8.

 

Kind words and encouragement will help to an extent, but not enough. I saw that in season 7. Sam gave Dean thanks, encouragement, and respect often, but none of it helped to get Dean out of his depression, and apparently not even killing Dick Roman and surviving purgatory and getting the respect of a vampire did it. In my opinion, Dean has to find it himself, and that includes times when he's not successful, so he can pick himself up and try again. And hopefully that's what they are going to try to do this year.

 

Edited to add:

 

Dean can't handle failing the mission of Save Sammy.

 

Somewhere along the line it got worse though, because Dean couldn't handle failing the mission of save Bobby or save Castiel (twice) either, and the last time he couldn't handle it even when Castiel didn't want to be "saved." Maybe Dean needs a little of demon Dean's "screw them" attitude, but in a good way? Sometimes when you can't save someone, it just ain't your fault, it's theirs or bad luck or the bad guy's fault. And I think Dean needs to knock that chip off his shoulder and that sometimes saving the millions of people is enough and he just can't save everyone. Which goes back to "Sam, Interrupted" when he told his delusion doctor that's what he had to do. I think in a way, Dean is still stuck there a bit. Or I should say he went back there, since he almost chose a different tactic near the end of season 5.

Edited October 31, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

 

But that DID happen in reverse, when Dean deliberately sidelined Sam first to kill Abaddon, then to go after Metatron.

 

And both times the show played it as Dean being completely out of line and off the reservation. With Abaddon, Sam WAS insulted by it. Meanwhile when Dean was to stay behind like a good boy in that trial ep, it was played as if Sam was completely in the right. Because of course he can tell his sidekick to stay and man the kitchen if he wants. He even got validated later, as I said, with shooting Head!Dean down for having delusions of having helped, the little idiot.

 

When Sam does it, it`s fine. When Dean does it, it`s not. Which is because IMO the narrative looks on Sam as the important one and the hero and it is pretty unheard of that the sidekick tells the hero to stay behind. If they do, they need to relearn their place.

 

Heck, even when in that Pacman episode with Charlie Dean made an entirely sensible case of having Sam stay behind because he looked half-dead on his feet, it got played as such a big insult to Sam, Sam needed to go after them anyway and save the day. Dean`s ego gets trashed and trampled on so much, he barely has any and apparently what he does have is still too much. Nope, he has to learn more failure and be humbled and be made to look weak and whatnot. Whereas Sam has to be build up at all times even though his "in his head" episodes show him to think quite highly of himself all the time. This show is applying opposite world logic and it frustrates me to no end.

 

I`m certainly not rooting for Dean to be "humbled" some more and supposedly be made to look as weak. I have had enough of that for the last 9 years to last me fifteen lifetimes.

 

 

So it's okay for Dean to have successes and therefor he'll feel better about himself, but if Sam has a rare success and feels better about himself, this is a bad thing?

 

My problem is that I think Sam feels powerful about it when he can see Dean as weak (or can think of him as weak). And it either comes out as thinly veinly smugness or some magnaminous "he means well but..." where he, I don`t know, decides to throw the little idiot some bone. I just hate those scenes.

 

It was my big concern after Demon!Dean that he would eventually play the meek doormat because he was ashamed and contrite and Sam just couldn`t quite keep the gloating out of it. We are not quite there yet but it still may come.  

Edited October 31, 2014 by Aeryn13

[Wynne88]

Which is because IMO the narrative looks on Sam as the important one and the hero . . .

 

If that's the case, then the writers really do suck because Sam almost always fails.  That's not a hero in my book.  In fact, I think they portrayed him for years as such a whiny, self-centered person, he really became unlikable.  I've found Dean depressing at times, and occasionally infuriating, but I don't think I've ever actively disliked him because even when he is wrong, they've gone to the trouble to show his viewpoint.  Letting Gadreel possess Sam, for example.  I really WANTED to dislike him for that, but couldn't because I understood why he did it and I knew he was suffering over the decision every time he lied to Sam.  With Sam, on the other hand, it's all too often sheer guesswork, such as his choosing domestic bliss with Amelia over searching for Dean.

 

At any rate, I think our viewpoints of these characters vary greatly, which is fine.

[AwesomO4000]

My problem is that I think Sam feels powerful about it when he can see Dean as weak (or can think of him as weak). And it either comes out as thinly veinly smugness or some magnaminous "he means well but..." where he, I don`t know, decides to throw the little idiot some bone.

 

I don't know if it's that as much as a brother thing myself. Dean used to do the same kind of thing to Sam in the early years, when he'd make remarks about Sam being "college boy" and nerd. It seemed to me that Dean had little to no respect for Sam's going to college and obviously thought of hunting as much more "noble" or what have you. Dean may have said that one time that he respected Sam for going and doing his own thing - and he might have even meant it then - but he eventually went back to the Sam leaving was abandoning the family and a cop out of sorts attitude later. And Dean did seem to have a sort of superiority complex about how he was the one to sacrifice and "stay with Dad" and take care of him... to the point that Sam finally believed him - which was Sam's fault and weakness and it got him into trouble later too. To a lesser extent Dean believed it about Sam and women, too, and had sort of a smug "I'll throw Sammy a bone, because he can't get women on his own" attitude when it came to women and an "aww, isn't Sam cute, he's trying to be with a woman" attitude. So I think they both pull this on one another sometimes and it's more of a brother thing myself with trying to one up each other from time to time.

 

And with all of the times Dean has taken care of Sam, I could see that Sam might feel good about being able to take care of Dean every once in a while. It might make him feel that maybe sometimes he's just not just Dean's "snot-nosed little brother" in need of having his nose wiped. I haven't really seen any smugness here myself yet at all.

[Aeryn13]

Honestly, this is purely an acting thing. I always found Sam a little smug but never so much that it truly bothered in the early years. But for the last few years, it just makes me wanna throw things. Dean has "smug" scenes, too. He has lines that on paper would be unbearable. But most times, not all but most for me, Jensen manages to soften it a bit or give it a little twist in another direction. There are some scenes where even he fails but overall I can stay with it.  

 

With Sam`s character, I feel the narrative is validating every single thing that personally puts me off and the acting is playing it straight. The combination just doesn`t work for me.

 

And Dean is actually the one who personality-wise is most different from me. I`m not the outgoing, social party type but the quiet studious one who`d sooner buries their nose in a book. I`m also not being completely immersed in family. I mean, I have a good relationship with them but am a lot on my own. Also have no siblings. Not particularly adventurous either.

 

So the core characteristics that have been established for Dean`s character are all things I don`t easily relate to - the super-duper family stuff is actually something I find really weird and can`t get into. But I`ve never really wanted or needed to see "me" represented in TV characters either. They just need to be admirable by my own standards. And I think Dean is, no matter what the show tries to force down my throat otherwise. That is, admirable despite the family/Sam-obessesed stuff which is by now the greatest flaw of the character and hurdle to him growing somewhere.

 

It was so painful that after coming out of Purgatory, he looked somewhat stronger and healthier and less into "Sam, Sam, Sam" mode. Sure, he was disappointed and hurt to learn Sam hadn`t looked for him. But even I, not being family person numero uno, would be horrified if I went missing and noone did squat to search for me.

Yet in the span of a few episodes, he grew back into being so Sam-obsessed, he became a shell of even his former self. That butler/cheerleader stuff during Sam`s trials? It was a new, unheard of low for Dean`s character.

 

In comparism when he went increasignly unstable with the Mark in Season 9, he was much better off. Heck, even as a demon, he wasn`t so low. At least it didn`t include cringe-watching on my part.      

[SueB]

Skipping Groundhogs' Day.  Just want to clear up one point:

 

 

if Dean can`t even handle himself in a fight

If you got that concept from my commentary then I was misunderstood.  Dean can handle himself. He'll kill if he has to. He is naturally reticent to egg on the Mark. These werewolves were strictly minor league. But if a real threat emerges? Yes, I believe Dean will fight just as ruthlessly as he needs to.

Edited October 31, 2014 by SueB

[Aeryn13]

 

These werewolves were strictly minor league.

 

 Dean won`t get to fight a "real threat" if he can`t even hack it with minor leagues, though. That`s like someone saying they will give it their all in the Finale but get eliminated in the qualification rounds against a nobody.

 

And that scene was definitely played as if Dean was trying but getting easily overpowered by minor league. He looked like he had never been in, let alone won a fight in his entire life. No training, no skills, no moves.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Aeryn13

[mertensia]

To me it looked as if Dean was, to be honest, unsure. If he kills again what will the MoC do? Will he start sliding back into demonhood? Will he enjoy the kill? I find it perfectly logical and -to be honest-expected. Dean should be worried about all of the above. He should be off his game.

[Aeryn13]

There would have been a billion better ways to show that in the scene/stage that fight if it was supposed to show Dean being hesitant. He gets easily knocked down and then can`t even block off one nobody werewolf whereas one-armed Sam kills two without breaking a sweat.

 

If Dean was supposed to be hesitant, he would have gone in for the kill but then faltered at the last moment. Whereas here he didn`t even get to that part because for some reason that escapes me, he literally forgot everything about fighting. Let alone that he has also no upper body strength anymore or reflexes.

 

This is what the fight scene looked liked. Now I can fanwank it is supposed to mean something or I can simply see it as the writer/director not giving a crap beyond "Sam kills two werewolves, Dean stands there like an incompetent doofus". Just like "Demon!Dean needs to be captured and the episode only has two more minutes of running time so one-armed-Sam will squirt some holy water on him and that will be it".

 

 

 

 

[mertensia]

Well as to that Dean might well relearning his own body so to speak. His reaction times etc. might well be off.

[Aeryn13]

He kept his own body with all its functions as a demon, why would he need to relearn it? That would honestly make no sense to me. If he`d been in an accident and a coma for 6 years with muscles atrophied and physical therapy for months to come, that is when I buy someone needing to relearn their own body. But not with Dean here.

 

Even with amnesia, often muscle memory will kick in. That is, even if someone didn`t know they could fight, if they had to, they`d still be able to. So either Dean has been in a fight before in his life and knows stuff how to block attacks and thrust a knife - which we know he does because of previous years of the show - or he doesn`t, as this recent episode told us.  

[catrox14]

Well as to that Dean might well relearning his own body so to speak. His reaction times etc. might well be off.

It's been like 4 months in show that Dean was turned and what 2 days of being captured before being cured. Why would Dean have to relearn his own fighting capabilities after literally 20 years of hand to hand combat of which he was pretty great combined expert marksmanship with guns and knife fighting? Not to mention that he spent most of his time as a demon beating the shit out of people and knifing them.

He beat the crap out of Cole the very day he was captured. And what a day later he's cured? Even if he is physically weak from the process he is not going to lose the muscle memory and 20 to years of fighting experience he gained before being demonized in a few days. I it's not like he had a stroke. And if the cure process did that to him then they damn better make the explicit in a conversation between Sam and Dean and not another idiotic parallel story.

And if it's the MoC making him weak they better explain that but they won't because then it opens the can O worms as to why Dean didn't drop dead the moment he became human again since the Mark was killing him for not killing.

It's a pretty damn big deal if Dean can't or won't fight because that is the antithesis to everything the show has EVER said about Dean. The only other possibility is that Sam is deliberately keeping Dean out of the fight because he's afraid of what Dean will do.

They have a lot of explaining to do because this is some bullpucky if you ask me.

Edited November 1, 2014 by catrox14

[SueB]

 

This is what the fight scene looked liked.

That's a statement of opinion, not fact**.  I saw hesitation. I understand many interpreted it differently.  But I think the logical argument that Dean doesn't want to trigger a bad Mark of Cain reaction far more probable than Dean suddenly is incapable of fighting.  I don't think it's a fanwank to presume there's a specific reason Sam took out both werewolves given the dialog earlier.

 

Could they have filmed it better or added dialog that specifically states WHY Sam took out two vice both taking out their own werewolf? Sure. But I don't find it necessary.

 

Bottom line: you are never going to convince me the show has suddenly decided to portray Dean as a weakling. I'm going to agree to disagree.

 

**Just to be clear on "facts":

- Fact: one of the werewolves got the drop on Dean because he came into the room holding him at gunpoint

- Fact: when on their knees, Sam killed two werewolves, Dean killed none.

- Fact: when attacking the werewolf, Dean's knife was blocked b the werewolf

-Motivation for these fight-scene choices: no facts exists, we are all speculating

Edited November 1, 2014 by SueB

[Aeryn13]

 

- Fact: when attacking the werewolf, Dean's knife was blocked b the werewolf

 

Fact 4: He was incapable of getting out of that block or using any other fighting move

 

I can fight as well as Dean could in that scene and that is ridiculous because I can`t fight at all. But I would still manage being overpowerered and knocked down, blocked and needing to be saved. It`s really pretty easy.

 

And for my money, shooting the scene better or adding dialogue would have absolutely been necessary.

 

 

Bottom line: you are never going to convince me the show has suddenly decided to portray Dean as a weakling.

 

I don`t think that was any sudden decision. I think wanting to portray him in the worst way possible by the writing is the standing decision. Just as vice versa for Sam.

 

Which is why when they write and shoot scenes like this, I`m gonna think of them as their typical asshole-selves. Fool me once and all. And I kinda let myself fooled way more than once but at some point no anymore. 

Edited November 1, 2014 by Aeryn13

[7kstar]

I can't follow you into bitterness today so I'll just give you my two cents here.

 

Dean has defined himself as only being good at slitting throats.  When Cain said they were kindred spirits, Dean said "You mean a killer." Well IMO, while Dean is Hella-good at killing, he's MORE than that.

 

... So, if for a few episode, he's a little afraid to just going back to slicing throats and being Stabby McStabberson, I'm okay with it.  What if he TRIED to exorcise the freaking demon rather than kill kill? I'm not saying never kill. I'm saying kill because you have to. Not because you like it.  The Mark makes him LIKE killing more than he used to ('nothing wrong with enjoying my job', AAAA). ...

 

I'm not remotely worried that Dean will permanently loose his BadAss card. 

The show has constantly shown either brother weak at fighting only to turn them into the best fighter EVER when it was needed story wise.  So do I believe Dean will not be fighting, nope...but I do think it isn't clear why Dean failed.  I can guess but is my GUESS the correct one the writers want us to feel.  This part is sloppy, IMO.

 

I will rewatch, haven't yet but I'm really tired of depressed Dean and it doesn't make me want to watch the show.  It is time for the show to give us something to root for, for both brothers honestly and if this mess leads to that I will wait before I got totally in the bitterness thread. 

 

But I am on the ledge...Right now it looks like the solved the Demon Dean WAY too early and if they don't give us something strong...well supernatural will go on the back burner.  I won't watch it live and switch to another show I enjoy but is at the same time.  Which could happen on the 200th ep...because I'm not looking forward to it either, now.  Won't talk about it as it leads to spoilers.

 

I want to root for both Sam and Dean.  Dean is more interesting for me since his character is more layered and that is due to the actor's talent.  I'm tired of the current trend, Strong story for Dean 1st half, then oops drop it cause now it's Sam's turn.  I want it strong for both characters and it could lead to that if the writers can write.

 

Dean has had such a major impact on his life.  Turned into a demon...Sam's worst nightmare and Dean's starting season 3.  Dean's line on I need to make the right choices is in reference to some of his worst choices, Selling his soul, and getting the mark.  I doubt he still sees having Sam saved by angel as a worst choice, because although it killed Kevin, it also saved Sam, Cas and Charlie.  All of those characters would be dead and I bet Kevin would have been killed anyway since he was on Metratron's hit list.  So that would have left Dean totally alone with the Mark. 

 

I can get why Sam is concerned, he's healed Dean of being a demon but not the Mark and the show did show us this.  The question for me is what will they do with Dean now???  This is the part I don't trust and yes I know for some Sam fans this is their complaint as well.  Can the writers create a compelling story that will keep older viewers and retain the new viewers. 

 

I don't think anything I've said is spoilerish, but let me know and I can add a spoiler tag.  But I hope they move forward in a way that I like what they are doing and that is the problem with season 7...I didn't like Dean's storyline and almost stopped watching the show.  They sold me on Dean's storyline and to have it dropped so abruptly is majorly disappointing. 

 

So give me something to enjoy because the show I loved was two brothers despite all the obstacles were fighting the good fight together, killing monsters and saving lives.  I don't need a myth arc, I just need to see the brothers working together and I can deal with Sam being the one trying to look out for his brother, to be in Dean's shoes so to speak, since Dean does have the Mark and it IS something to be worried about.

[catrox14]

When Dean had the gun on Kate I didn't have the impression that Dean was struggling with not killing her nor that he was hesitating that much. To me it was standard Dean weighing the situation but Sam intervened before Dean had made his decision. I didn't perceive Dean as being eager like Yes kill or No Bad Dean mustn't kill.

Going by what Sam said in the opening about if things go sideways. What does sideways mean exactly? What are the ramifications if it goes sideways? I am leaning towards Sam having to kill Dean if thing s go awry. That Sam Winchester is now literally his brothers keeper (I see you Save Sammy or kill him role reversal). I can believe regular! Dean would tell Sam to out him down if it goes South. No questions no hesitation. Demon! Dean told Sam as much.

But none of that meshes with the fight scene. Dean has taken much worse blows to the head than there. That he stayed down for any reason other than being knocked unconscious or that he was shown to be working a plan seemed way OOC even for a recently de-demoned Dean.

[SueB]

 

Going by what Sam said in the opening about if things go sideways. What does sideways mean exactly? What are the ramifications if it goes sideways? I am leaning towards Sam having to kill Dean if thing s go awry.

To me this was the critical conversation of the episode.  I personally believe "sideways" means Dean has the MoC motivated urge to kill. Like he told Crowley at the start of "Do You Believe In Miracles":

 

DEAN: I can't turn it off! Ever since I killed Abaddon, it's -- it's like this whole...other thing. I get this high and I-I-I need to kill. I mean, I really, really need to kill. And if I don't --

CROWLEY: you yak your guts out. It's the mark.

source: Supernatural Wiki

 

So, what does Sam know about the effect of the Mark on Dean?  He saw Dean go snarl-face on Gadreel, become Stabby McStabberson w/ Abaddon, and heard Dean say the Mark was turning him into something he didn't want to become.  But how much more has Dean shared? Did he explain that he yakked in the dungeon because of the Mark? Did Sam see the yak? (And who cleaned it up? This bothers me...I think it had to be Sam.. which would mean he had physical proof that Dean was yakking blood before he left with Crowley). We don't have that for sure. But I think we can surmise that Sam knows the Mark and the Blade in combination had a physical effect on Dean. He wanted to stow the Blade last year and Dean wanted it physically with him.  So.. even if Dean did not confess the physical effects explicitly to Sam, I think we can state that Sam knows that the Mark has an effect Dean to some extent and definitely on his behavior.  So "sideways", with this reasoning, means Dean is taking actions or feeling things he normally wouldn't have felt. That the Mark is influencing his judgement.  I think he's asking Dean to be in tune with what he's doing and decide if this is a decision fueled by the Mark or something he would normally do. The moment that Dean starts to suspect the Mark is influencing him, Sam wants to pull him out of the situation.  I don't think Sam is implying that influence=kill Dean. It means that Dean has a condition to be managed and he wants it closely monitored. 

 

And Dean clearly agrees with this.  In fact I was kinda proud of Dean's candidness.  Stuff he said that I liked:

1) "I need to work. I need this." - he's self-aware enough to know that he's "stewing in his own crap" and it's not healthy

2) "So what's this about me not being ready back there" -- not letting things fester

3) "So, I gotta ask, what about Lester" -- even though Dean is in "recovery" he's smart enough to know this is an issue. He pushes a little (opens up a vein) and tells Sam technically "it's still on you" -- I think his motivation is not to deflect blame but to get Sam to realize he's dealing with shit too. It comes across as a little tit-for-tat but I think Dean is onto something (I'll talk more about this in the Sam thread).

4) Sam draws the parallel between Kate fighting for Tasha and he and Dean. Dean says "And that's worked wonders for us", Sam says "Well we're still here." and Dean replies "Yeah, but is it right? All that you done for me, I've still go this Mark."  -- Dean is questioning how far they will go for each other

5) "It's embarrassing"..."the note, Crowley, everything" -- Dean admitting he's not emotionally okay -- he's not trying to be all 'It's okay because I'm the big brother and I have to be okay.'

6) "If you got an itch to scratch" -- Dean, again, doesn't let a comment fester

7) "I am coming -on"..."I'm not trying to get by it" "Not stewing in my own crap" - Again, self-aware in a much more healthy fashion than before IMO.

 

In short, what I'm saying that while Dean has always had a certain self-awareness, there's not only an openness to his statements but also less beating on himself and more looking for a path that works. In the past I feel like he cut off discussion by essentially saying 'Okay, I'm crap, let's not talk about it.' It was a terrible approach towards emotional issues. He put all the blame on himself (or conversely sometimes lashed out to avoid dealing with the issue). This time he's not really clear WHAT to do, he just seems to know he's gotta be open and deal with it differently.  To me, that is actually VERY good.  At least he recognizes that "stewing" in an 'I'm poison' mental state is not functional.  He's questioning choices and looking at things critically (with a little less fatalism perhaps?). 

 

BTW: Note that while we have the parallel going with S4 in that at this point Sam seems to be calling the shots on many things, Dean still comes up with the clutch move to tell Kate a lie so they can get at Tasha.  It's a ruthless move but it got them to at least find the killer to give them a chance to evaluate her. And he gave Sam a chance to come up with a better plan. Since he didn't have one, they went with Deans. I'm good with that interchange. 

[catrox14]

If only the writers had actually spent time with your surmising SueB. Like I said before the is not enough showing for me.

We spent most of the second half of last year watching Dean go through this hellacious experience whilst Sam barely paid attention and side eyed Dean more than IMO him seeming to actually care about what is happening to Dean. To me extent of Sam's caring was precisely in the limited dialogue you quoted.

And now the want me to believe Sam was really all the time studying Dean so closely that he figured out the Mark was killing Dean.

That conversation needs to take place for me to buy in to Sam being the leader and Dean's kill handler.

It can't be that hard for m them to write a scene where Sam or Dean discuss why they are worried about to each other and let the audience see it. I need the emotional satisfaction by seeing that discussion. I need to see that for it to be more than s10 the Redemption of Sam via the character assassination of Dean Winchester(see s6 for the first time that happened).

I needed to see Sam and Dean have the conversation that clears up very specifically what Dean is still experiencing here. It feels way too much like the barely tell and NEVER show post hell experience for Dean

[SueB]

I don't know if Sam put it all together until after Dean died.

[catrox14]

I need a montage or a flashback of him putting it together or aline dialogue. Iit's a pretty big deal that needs to be adequately addressed for this viewer.

[SueB]

 

It's not even a matter of a thought or belief in Dean's mind that he is beyond saving. To me it's coming across as a forgone conclusion...that Dean absolutely KNOWS his fate and that it is an immutable and unchangeable event vs when Dean is overrun with guilt or depression and feeling worthless. IMO even the way Jensen physically carries himself as post-demon!Dean is a little different. It's kind of a weird confidence that is different from Dean's confidence/swagger walk if that makes any sense. The look on his face and the way he turned away from Sam and walked down the alley was filled with this whatever it is I'm perceiving.

ITA that there is something different with Dean's attitude here. There's a resignation for his "end state" that is even more depressing than when he told Sam in S8 he's 'just a grunt' and going to die bloody. I think by the end of S6 he abandoned "normal life" forever.

 

Thinking on this, I think Dean still had some level of hope in Season 8.  I personally think Dean was hoping to go out in a way that gave him closure (which shutting the Gates of Hell would be a fitting sacrifice).  And I think he was not sure where he'd end up.  He knew it wasn't Purgatory (been there, done that, wrong species). I think he was hoping for Heaven (even if it was Memorex).  And now? Now I think Dean is 100% sure he's going to end up not only in Hell but a demon.  I think he's resigned himself to doing as much good as he can until he dies because after that, there's no good there.  He felt he was going to Hell after Kevin.  Then with the Mark, he learned 'Death=demon".  What I'm not sure of is if he thinks that if he can get rid of the Mark, will he have a shot at Heaven?  I'm not sure.  I kinda think he figures there's nothing he can do to completely wipe the slate clean. No big act, no ultimate redemption.  But I do think he's motivated to clean up as many messes as he can and to put as many 1's in the Win column until he goes out. 

 

In short, I'm sensing he's resigned to ending up in Hell and just hoping to do good for as long as he can until his bill comes due.

[catrox14]

Yep that's my perception although I don't think it's resignation as much as it is acceptance that this is it. For me, that is all coming through Jensen's performance since there is not much in the text other than his words to Cole. But I think Jensen was playing that all along. Just as an aside as wonderful as Jensen always is, I think he's really fantastic this season. Emmys better take notice...I'm not holding my breath)

[amensisterfriend]

I just suggested this in the Sam thread, too---I was thinking it might be fun to post pictures of some of our favorite Dean scenes from each season. It'll be fun to see how he has and hasn't changed over the past decade! 

[catrox14]

Oh good lord. This thread would grow to 1000 pages in a day if I posted my favorite Dean scenes because well it's pretty much ALL the Dean scenes. LOL

[DittyDotDot]

Hey, it sounds like we should resurrect our screen cap game...and away I go.

[catrox14]

From the All Episodes thread

 

I agree that he tries to help people, and I actually think he cares a lot about being a good person. He's always seemed to think a lot about how things should be or how people should be, and doing things right has always seemed to matter a lot to him. However, I don't even get the sense that he's legitimately trying to be a good person at this point -- I think that's been the case since S8 began.
    The show seems like it's intentionally pushing that imo. S8 began with him missing the "purity" of killing in Purgatory and the friendship with a vampire, which was clearly meant to be unsettling and "over the line" (I say that since they then backed way the hell off on it, imo thinking that they didn't want risk doing too much damage to Dean/making him unlikeable or unrelatable, since the show is very cautious with him in that respect), and S8 ended with him trying to convince Sam to let Hell stay open in order to stick with him. Then S9 opened with him deciding to go ahead with the whole Gadreel debacle/trick and ended with him becoming a demon. I think he wishes he were a good person but he isn't actively trying to be one anymore. I don't know what brought about that change within the show -- disillusionment? Idk. I think it was just part of Carver's S8 revampt, tbh, and there's not a deep character-based reason for it.
    
    My personal thing is that I don't think that Dean is a bad person, but I have trouble believing wholeheartedly that he's a good one, either, because how can he be a good person if he does things that are completely wrong, like torture? And not just once, but over and over?
    
    There's no way for him not to know that torture is wrong, either -- it's what Hell is all about. It's how demons are *made.* Within the show, torture isn't even useful in getting information very often, either, just in hurting people. It was not useful this time around with Metatron, for sure. So what's the justification for it, even?
    
    I just can't forget how, after Dean had already figured out what was going on with Gadreel, he still went on to torture him until they were both passed out in exhaustion (and the torture turned out to be utterly useless). In this episode, he went to Cas and Sam, telling them he knew he was crossing the line from hunter to being just a plain killer, and seemed torn up about it, but then as soon as he got the chance, he was locking himself in with Metatron and pulling out the knife. Even though he knows torture's wrong, or at least something that *demons* do (!!!) and that he therefore *shouldn't* do (he only just got cured ffs), and even though it's often not useful anyway and he even told Metatron he didn't expect it to be useful this time, he's still torturing people and shows no sign of stopping?
    
    It wasn't just that he decided to torture Metatron, either -- just like way back when he made the vampire look in his eyes as he sawed his head off, what was so frightening about how he interacted with Metatron imo was that he seemed like he was even getting off on scaring/hurting him, like it was a power trip for him. I think that's the MoC's doing, but is that going to change if it goes away?
    Idk, it's not that I have a hate on for Dean. I don't think he's a bad person, and I know he doesn't *want* to be a bad person. But he seems like a lost soul to me at this point. I can't decide whether he's actually a good man or not tbh.
    
    There are other things that put me on edge about him, but that are YMMV territory to the point that it's probably not interesting. Stuff like how physical he gets sometimes when he's freaking out (like throwing everything off the desk after Kevin was killed, or even just how he'll start raising his voice). It's often not unwarranted or dangerous even, but seeing a grown man get like that out of anger, especially since on the context of this show, he's probably also been drinking -- just freaks me out. I can't look at that and think "attractive" at all, I just think "get out of the room!" And obviously, I do just generally wish he would lighten up.
    
    
    In this episode? Idk, I don't even think he talked with any women in this episode? He gave Claire a look, but that's the most I remember.
    
    Off the top of my head, horndog things that I've found offputting: in the pilot when he broke into Jessica and Sam's home and then made a big show of ogling Jessica (that was her home ffs), when Sam brought him over to that college friend's house and it's like Dean could not get over that the friend's sister was hot, when he was pretending to be a coach or a gym teacher and was talking about how some of the high schoolers were legal, at one point I remember him flipping through photos of a bunch of teenage girls and saying they were hot, etc. I'm of two minds of the pressure he was putting on Sam to get some tail. It's realistic and all, but ehhhhhh. I think all the porn stuff is gross in general, especially since they've apparently decided Dean has some racist Asian fetish with the Busty Asian Beauties and the anime porn crap. Aside from anything to do with sex (and I don't think anything to do with sex is the major issue), I think there's a huge difference in how he treats (younger) men versus how he treats women -- usually he treats women with kid gloves, and I guess that's better than the other way around because this way he's not misogynist, just sexist, but it still bothers me. How he treated Jo or Krissy versus how he treated Kevin, for example. It ends up coming off to me as infantalizing and dismissive to the women, cold and harsh to the men.
    
    I don't think he's especially sexist relative to how most men are in real life. Even men I've loved dearly, like my father or my ex boyfriend, tend to say and do much worse things when it comes to women. Thank god Dean doesn't provide a running commentary on how ugly or bitchy every woman is or try to flip the script on any woman by blaming whatever's pissing him off about her atm as some inherent ~female~ trait, lol. But regardless that he's not on a total sexist tear, I still notice when Dean seems like he's treating women like objects or like delicate porcelain dolls, which imo he does do fairly often.
    
    That's why it seemed so unusually self-aware when *as a demon* he suddenly cared about Lester's double standards. Or how he took the trouble to try and justify himself (for beating her ex) to Ann Marie, and even cared enough to get pissed off when she called him on it, as though her opinion of him mattered (I guess what I'm saying is, he tried to treat her like an equal, including trying to convince her he was acting in her best interests). Or how he taunted that dancer not to give himself an excuse to beat *her* for being mouthy, but as an excuse to leap onto the bouncer. While he was obviously all-around more cruel as a demon, he also seemed weirdly at least as self-aware about sexism as a demon as he was normally and sexism seemed to bother him at least as much as usual (if not more -- the disgust over the double standards really surprised me). Totally bizarre imo. I actually kind of liked that, because it was so inexplicable -- but I still found it inexplicable.
    

  In terms of whether he seemed like a hedonist as a demon -- I didn't think he came off that way at all. That was the most most Hotel California, dour, lonely version of hedonism he could have gone with. I think that he just still seemed like a lost soul.

I don't think Dean was viewing Purgatory as "pure" was because he liked it or because he was not a good man.  It was kill or be killed. He didn't lose his soul in Purgatory. He was a human trapped in monster land. He was being hunted by those monsters every minute of his life in Purgatory. IMO there is no moral quandary when it's kill or be killed. It's survival.

And then Dean still made a choice at his own risk to stay in Purgatory to find Cas.  He could have left with Benny as soon as Benny offered him the out but he said "No, I'm not leaving without the angel". To me that makes Dean a good man right there regardless of him being a complex, multi-layered person who is not always likeable and doesn't always do the right thing. I don't always like what Dean does but he is completely relateable to me because of how very human and kind of screwed up he is. He's not a perfect man, but he's a good man.

 

 

Dean and Women:

Dean was skeevy with Jessica in the pilot but I don't hold the characterizations in a pilot episode to be the be all and end all of a character because well it's a pilot. 

 

I don't think he's ever treated women as porcelain dolls or infantalizes them at all. He's flirty, he sleeps around, he looks at pretty women(maybe even pretty men). All of his sexual encounters that we see on screen are consensual and have Dean being deferrential to his partners desires and the women are almost always on top.  Make of that what you will. He's been objectified throughout the show himself.. He doesn't cheat on anyone. He was loyal to Lisa and Cassie it would seem.  He was constantly trying to protect Lisa but she made the choice to let Dean into her life.

 

He WAS a highly sexual person which changed quite a bit after Emma. He had sex once after Emma and when he became a demon he seemed to be getting around again. He used the dating app in s10 because stupid plot reasons and she turned out to be a hooker for souls not cash. He doesn't force himself on women. That's why demon!Dean pawing the stripper was IMO showing us not regular!Dean

 

To me the Busty Asian Beauties thing is not indicative of Dean having a particular fetish but it's become a stupid running gag that has worn out it's welcome. They even used the gag with Crowley looking at it. Dean's porn proclivities are not limited to BAB either. He also watches Casa Erotica which seems to have a smorgasbord of various women. 

 

Dean clearly respects Charlie. He treats her like a little sister. He's bonded with her.

 

He had a complicated relationship with Jo because he was attracted to her and her to him but IMO he absolutely respected her as an equal once she proved herself as a capable hunter. He didn't care that she was a woman, he cared that she was a rookie and he told her that.  He respected Jo's decision to sacrifice herself to save Sam and Dean. 

 

He saw Ellen as a mother figure and treated her with the respect that she demanded.

 

Bela was a whole other kettle of fish. He hated Bela because she was a thief and made their lives miserable. She messed with Baby, she shot Sam and she stole lottery tickets from Dean and Sam. She gave up Sam to Gordon so for me whatever Bela got she had coming. Even so once Dean learned she had made a deal he was  willing to try and save her if she had come to them and told them about her deal.  So to me, that was Dean being a good man despite his hatred of Bela.

 

He had NO issues with Ellen or any other female hunters. He hunted with Annie and slept with her but Annie slept with Sam too ( and I really hated that they had Sam be soulless as though he wouldn't have anyway).  Dean didn't even look twice at the Daisy Dukes hunter in Devil May Care. He treated her like a hunter there to do a job.

 

Krissy was 14 when he met her. Of course he's going to try and protect her. But he handcuffed her to the steering wheel to keep her out of the fight. I'm not sure that's treating her like an infant. He was harsh with her like he was Kevin. Kevin was 17 IIRC. He was chosen prophet. He was harsh with Kevin because he wanted Kevin to just face the life he now has.  That was post Bobby's murder and dealing with Sam's Hellucinations. Dean was drinking a lot and was pretty much a mess.  But we have seen how Dean is with children of various ages be they 8 year old Audrey or Krissy or Been or Kevin or the the 15 year old body swap kid and I think he's a really great with them.

 

As to Dean the Torturer:

 

Dean has been asked /coerced by Cas twice to torture because he's effective with it. Dean will do the job others won't not because he is a bad man but because he is willing to do whatever it takes to fulfill the mission. And I consider the minor beating and torment he gave to Metatron to be small potatoes for what Metatron did to Cas, Sam, Kevin and Dean. 

 

Gadreel killed Kevin, who was Dean's responsibility and Gadreel lied to Dean for months about Sam's meatsuit being at risk. Gadreel and Metatron played Dean and used him and Sam to kill Kevin.  I don't blame Dean for wanting that vengeance.  But Dean didn't give Gadreel what he wanted which was death.  That was kind of awesome if you ask me.  And frankly Sam trusting Gadreel AT ALL made no sense.

 

AS to Demon!Dean, I think he was very much a lonely soul and that's why he hung out with Crowley until Dean just decided fuck that guy.  When he referred to Ann Marie as a skank I think that was him indicting himself more than anything. 

 

I'll stop for now because I could really write a dissertation on Dean Winchester...

[Wynne88]

Torture has been a Dean go-to a few too many times for me to be comfortable with it, especially since it never seems to work.  I just rewatched whichever episode it was where Crowley kidnapped Lisa and Ben, and Dean was stacking up demons he had tortured to death like cord wood.   Yes, he was upset and stressed about Lisa, but that doesn't justify what he was doing as far as I'm concerned.  (I also don't like the way the show quit caring about the survival of the meatsuits, but that's another discussion.). Dean's a smart guy - I'd like to see him use his brains more often.

[catrox14]

Dean torturing =/= Dean being not smart enough to find another way.  I think both parts of Dean can co-exist. They did in the past.

Dean would rather not torture and as he told Cas back in s4...."If I go in there, [to torture Alistair] you won't like what comes back out."

 

I didn't like Cas asking Dean to torture again in s9 but he did and Dean did it because he wanted to because the Mark was pushing the bloodlust and it was to get intel.  What I don't understand is why does Cas get a pass for asking Dean to do the dirty work but Dean doesn't get a pass for doing it?

[SueB]

 

how can he be a good person if he does things that are completely wrong, like torture? And not just once, but over and over?

..from the All Episodes Thread.

 

My bias: torture is wrong. Hollywood shows it as an effective form of getting intel because it shows darkness in their heroes or anti-heroes.  In my personal opinion, the likes of Jack Bauer are what caused us as a culture to accept torture as a "necessary evil". 

 

Which brings us to an issue: Supernatural the show is from that Hollywood culture of "torture is a necessary evil". So just because the show has had Dean using torture in the past with demons and monsters does not mean to suggest they they are portraying Dean as evil.

 

OTOH, Dean himself has from S1's Devil Trap onward, acknowledged that he's afraid of what he will do to others to protect the family. More importantly, is the role torture played in his time in Hell.

 

Now my entire discussion here doesn't rest on this idea but I'll posit it for the purposes of my thoughts: What if Hell is actually a different experience for everyone.  Not exactly like Heaven, but that an individual's torment feeds off their own soul.  So for Dean, he was tortured and Alastair broke him by forcing him to torture.  That was the right "demon" trigger for Dean.  For Bobby (in that lame-ass Hell from S8), it was seeing Sam and Dean in Hell and undoubtedly they were at least emotionally ripping him up 100 times a day. 

 

So using the notion that Alastair broke Dean by forcing him to torture, I think it's likely Alastair KNEW Dean would like it.  That makes the pain that much sweeter. So what the hell is remotely likeable about torture?? It's the power. It's "dishing out the pain for once".  And this, of course, COMPLETELY matches Dean's emotional issues of abandonment, and being raised by an 'obsessed bastard who brainwashed' him.  Add in a violent monster-killing profession, bake for 30 years and voila: torture addiction.  (Note: this is obviously a behavior addiction like gambling addiction vice a substance addition. As portrayed there's anticipation, ritual, use, and regret before the cycle continues. Apologies for simplistic description). But at the end of the day, Dean relieves some of his own pain by causing others pain. 

 

It's not a good thing.  In the real world there'd be a padded room for him.  But in the Supernatural world, Sam and Dean are probably the biggest serial killers (according to the monsters) that the monsters have ever experienced.  And not to get too philosophical, but the entire series plays with the concept:

 

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."                   ~Friedrich Nietzsche

So, it's pretty much a given that Sam and Dean (especially in a 10 year series) are going to grapple with not becoming the monster.  As Carver said, "who's the real monster" was part of this year's theme.

 

But back to Dean & torture: I think the show has indicated that Dean knows torture is bad but is tempted by the feeling he gets.  As others have mentioned, he warned Cas about it before torturing Alastair.  And yet as time went by, he took it on himself to be the torturer almost like a burden.  I think in Dean's mind his soul was already tainted so he'll do the torturing.  Sam has done some but when the two are together, Dean's the one doing it.  In Purgatory he got to kill monsters without any "regret", partly because it was kill-or-be-killed.  And he clearly (from the werewolf and vampire scenes), he felt it was open season on torture while inside Purgatory to find the angel. 

 

So why is Dean still a hero and a good person?  Here's my rationale

- Many people are susceptible to addition.  Dean's a functioning alcoholic, cross-addiction is probable. The power high that comes from torture, even if he feels bad about it, is a guilty pleasure.

- Torturing to get information from monsters is probably something John did, so he was likely taught it was part of a hunter's skill set right from the get-go.  Lenore rocked his world when he realized that he just can't presume all monsters were evil.  And they made a point of that.  But before that time, Dean was desensitized his entire life to the suffering of monsters.  They were evil, they could be hurt without it being wrong. 

- Dean didn't really fall under the spell of torturing and it's attraction until Hell.  One of the main reasons I think he's still a hero is that he held out for 30 years before succumbing to it.  He did not choose this addiction, he may have been susceptible to it, but he broke under torture. 

- He didn't want to torture once he came back ("On the Head of A Pin" and the way he chastises himself for torturing in the future in "The End") and considered it a personal failing.  I think this was a changed position from prior to going to Hell.  He now knew what it did to HIM when he tortured.

- Since returning back from Hell, I think he's actually only tortured four times outside of Purgatory.  Repo Man doesn't count because that was a flashback to a pre-Hell scene. Then we have:

1) About half a dozen demons, trying to find out where Ben and Lisa were in "Let It Bleed". Technically it was Bobby doing the torturing in "The Man Who Would Be King"

2) The Reaper on his way to find Cas in "I'm No Angel"

3) Authorizing Crowley to torture Gadreel to get to Sam in "Road Trip" -- technically he didn't torture and he certainly got no pleasure out of it

4) The Vampire in "Alex Annie Alexis Ann" - which was post Mark

Dean DOES play "the heavy", taking the lead on interrogations and smashing people up against the wall, punching out the dude in 1945, etc... but those are not torture scenes IMO. And I think the combination of him threatening with actual torture moments may give the impression that he's doing it more than he is.  Looking back at this list, I'd say that what was happening to Ben and Lisa was probably enough for him to not give a shit about what torture does to/for him.  Same with the Reaper/Cas.  He didn't enjoy Gadreel and the vampire was after he had the Mark.

5) The Mark IMO has egged him on toward not only torture but murder of humans.  Killing the guy in #THINMAN was murder IMO.  Killing Lester was murder. The massacre of the rapists in "The Thing We Left Behind" was murder (6 guys, 30 seconds:  If he was that much more powerful that them, a non-lethal option would have been viable.)  All three of these were over the line and I think Dean would agree.  I think what really freaked out Dean was he was completely out of control with the rapist dudes.  But WHY he's not completely sullied as a hero is he gets the "it wasn't really me" card.  He's in an altered state.  Sure, it's a state of his own making but if he can look back and say "that was wrong", then the actions he took under the influence of the Mark that he couldn't control. Further, Dean knows he has to get out of this condition because it turns him into "a stone cold killer". Thus indicating that Dean still knows the difference between right and wrong.

 

Sorry for the long post, but I hope my perspective on "Why Dean Winchester Is Still A Hero" is at least understandable if not persuasive.

Edited January 25, 2015 by SueB

[catrox14]

For me, even if Dean himself thinks he's a murderer that doesn't mean that I do.  He acted in self-defense. He might have been able to kill them swiftly but IMO it was still self defense. They attacked Dean first, not the other way around. I think he's done too much good for humanity for me to let some of the  consequences of his taking on the Mark sully his heroism any more than Sam drinking demon blood to stop the Apocalypse.  I think it's important to remember that he took on the Mark so that he could defeat Abaddon and save the world ...again.

 

Sam and Dean will always be heroes to me

Edited January 25, 2015 by catrox14

[SueB]

Doh! I forgot about Marvatron....which started this whole discussion.  So that's 5 times.  But Marvatron is part of MoC influence topic.