S01.E02: So Close, Yet So Far

[ICantDoThatDave]

That does make sense because the alternative is for them to be like "well, we know the boyfriend gets bit, so we clearly can't cast a black actor because of the backlash we might get."

[Sparger Springs]

Why would a school nurse have Oxycontin on hand? I imagine they have Tylenol ,asprin and maybe an epi pen. If a kid needs oxy they need to call 911.

 

As far as them hiring all the best actors who just happen to be black, I don't buy it. I watch enough tv and movies to know that is rarely the case.  When they were casting the show they knew all 3 men were disposable characters that wouldn't last past 2 episodes. Well at least black men get to show up and die. So far I think I have seen 2 black women with about one line each.

 

I'm betting the first family member to die will be the ex wife followed by her ex husband. We should start a pool.

[morgankobi]

Why would a school nurse have Oxycontin on hand? I imagine they have Tylenol ,asprin and maybe an epi pen. If a kid needs oxy they need to call 911.

 

 It wasn't a nurse's office. It was labeled, "Crime Prevention (covered with tape) Office". And the drugs all seemed to be in evidence bags. It was all confiscated contraband.

 Of course, even if that office belongs to their resource officer (real police person), I seriously doubt they'd leave evidence at school. Unless that was all confiscated the first half of the day that day. Because didn't you see how tough!urban!LA the school they teach at is? Metal detectors and everything!

Edited September 2, 2015 by morgankobi

[Amelie06]

 

It's also distinctly possible that TPTB are more open to the idea, consciously or not, of casting anyone of whatever background, for minor roles already written to die, than they are for ongoing roles.

Word! I see how they got into this predicament, but it all stems from apparently favoring minorities in the more minor and expendable roles. I'm black and I find this annoying, but I also want to be supportive of other minorities that are being highlighted on the show. While black people are being massacred, there are multiple Latinos on the show. I'm not sure if Travis is supposed to some kind of L.A. Maori or if he is playing another race, but he still counts. It's just a shame that the three characters that were killed off were either crazy hot (Cal) or seemed to have interesting potential.

 

 

When we were writing the pilot, it wasn't something that came up in conversations in the room or with the network. Ultimately, it came down to when we were casting those parts, we didn't know who was going to live, who would die or how those stories would arc out or not arc out.

I find this very troubling as it seems to back up the bitter jokes of a large amount of fans. Matt didn't have to die, no wonder his story doesn't feel fleshed out. After the casting they decided to kill him! Well, it showed. Everything about his execution showed that someone on the writing staff randomly decided to kill him. "Hey Rob, what if we killed Matt?" (Robert Kirkman looks up from his Iphone, annoyed at the interruption. That candy won't crush itself). He responded, "Sure. Kill him. Whatever. Just make sure to be super random about it. We can use it to make his girlfriend sad for the rest of the series. But cut costs by barely filming anything about it."

 

My fill in the blank theory about what happened to Matt involves a street vendor and a zombie hobo. Matt clearly envisioned making sweet love to Alicia while she was staying at his house with no parents present. In order to get their fuck on, classy-style, he decided to buy her flowers. (I think there were flowers scattered on the floor in his house.) On his way to meet Alicia, Matt stopped by a street vendor who was selling flowers. He had just picked out a bouquet when a seemingly drunk or high hobo stumbled into him. The man attacked him. There was a struggle. Matt was bitten on the shoulder. Other people, believing a drunken hobo was attacking a child, intervene and he is able to get away. He grabbed the flowers and headed home, bleeding a lot from where he was bitten. The bite was big and deep, the lethal infection set in immediately.

[phoenix780]

The Zombie Apocalypse is both swift and boring, and that for me is the most interesting aspect of this show. 

 

Second most interesting for me was the scene in the barbershop with the son trying to peek and his father telling him he didn't want to see it, followed by a similar mother/daughter scene in the house.  I felt like the writers were talking to/about me.  "No no, you don't want to see the outside world except in glimpses.  Focus on these characters instead."  Which would be cool if they weren't so...plastic.  I just can't connect to these people, and while I'm not sure I want to watch continual hysteria it'd be nice if one person responded in a way other than muted shock.  It feels like they're the zombies, and I don't find that cute. 

 

Also not cute, for me anyway, is the music getting louder when a character has headphones on.  

 

When we were writing the pilot, it wasn't something that came up in conversations in the room or with the network. Ultimately, it came down to when we were casting those parts, we didn't know who was going to live, who would die or how those stories would arc out or not arc out. For us, it was about casting that felt reflective of the community and getting the best actor and that was the final determining factor.

 

I'm hesitant to wade into the race debate but after reading this quote I can't help it.  I feel like this is bullshit.  "Reflective of the community" to me is code for race/ethnicity, so I doubt it was colorblind casting.  I think they felt their main cast was sufficiently balanced because of the inclusion of several Latino characters and they decided to fill ancillary roles with African American ones to get that "reflective of the community" feel.  I don't think "best actor" played into it very much- how could it if they didn't have an arc written, even as early into the series as episode 2.  And, even in a spinoff of a show known for killing main characters you know your ancillary characters are probably going to bite it first, no pun intended.  Point is, I think they set this scenario up more than they'll admit. 

 

That said, I'm on the fence about how much I really care.  It's noticeable to the point where I'm pulled out of the moment, but I don't have any real anger about it (besides my annoyance at the explanation offered above, 'cause I think it's nonsense).  I care more than I'm not being entertained the way I hoped to be.  Not because of race/ethnicity, but because it's all a little weak.

Edited September 2, 2015 by phoenix780

[Nashville]

Something else that bugs me about this episode is how long the cell phones continued to work. On the morning of 9/11, I was in Philadelphia. Within minutes of the second plane crash, the cell phones and Internet choked from everyone trying to call/connect at once. Maddie and Travis only had token trouble with their phones and were still able to make calls without a lot of trouble. That's not very realistic.

 

Actually ... in that context, it is extremely realistic.  More zombies = fewer callers/texters = lower demand on available network.  :)

 

Why would a school nurse have Oxycontin on hand? I imagine they have Tylenol ,asprin and maybe an epi pen.

 

Heck, most of the pharmacies around here don't even stock oxy - too many break-ins.

[RustbeltWriter]

This was a much better episode. Plotting and pacing seem to be issues, though. These folks all have the internet and the fact that DEAD PEOPLE ARE WALKING doesn't seem to be common knowledge even though things have progressed to the point where school is cancelled and birthday mom is being eaten in her front yard. The writers have a balancing act to pull off here and I'm not sure they are still on the wire.

 

At this point I'm giving the characters slack on their actions. Chris is acting like a teenager caught up in protesting police violence because that's what he expects to see. Travis saw something weird enough to make him want to leave the city so he's doing what a dad does. Maddie saw some truly unexplainable, apocalyptic, Biblical, end-of-the-world type stuff in the school and her brain is not processing the societal paradigm shift that is underway. To me, that's completely normal and what the show is trying to address.

 

As for why Maddie and Travis are not telling each other or their kids what they know, I think that will come eventually. However, it's an extrememly annoying writer's trick that gained prominence during Lost and it needs to stop. Maybe Maddie can't tell her daughter exactly what she saw because she doesn't quite understand it herself but she can say what she does understand; that people are becoming sick and violent. They just saw an example of it across the street so giving the closing-scene-not-speaking face is stupid.

[qtpye]

I think it would be ballsy if the writers have killed off the entire family by the end of the season.  Its not that I hate the family (to be honest I really do not care about them), but it would be cool if they were set up as main characters, only to find out the main character (or the Rick Grimes of the series) is actually Tobias.

Edited September 3, 2015 by qtpye

[Dobian]

I don't understand how until the rioting started, no one was reporting anything.  Really?  Cops shooting people in the street for no apparent reason.  Viral videos of people getting shot dead, then getting back up again.  Thousands of people all over the country in hospital emergency rooms with a strange illness.  FOX News would have been all over this, they live for this stuff!

 

I still can't get into this main family.  Who did the casting?  There's just zero appeal here. They did bring in Aleida from OITNB (she's sure getting a lot of work lately), but the rest I can take or leave.

 

I do like the premise of showing how it all started.  You kind of have to suspend disbelief, though.  For a virus that isn't airborne, that can only be transmitted by biting, I would think that quarantine procedures could be set in motion pretty quickly and keep the outbreaks localized in a real scenario.

 

They should make Missing Persons' "Walking in LA" the show's theme song, just change the lyrics to "Walking Dead LA".

[Irishmaple]

It does look like the "we're all infected" virus is airborne; that presumably is the flu going around. The bites probably kill by severe infection. Anyone who dies is coming back regardless. If "we're all infected" though, why don't any of our main characters have the flu or mention a recent recovery from it?

[maczero]

Also, again where is the federal government? This infection has already hit cities across the nation, yet there is nothing going on. The CDC goes maniac public awareness campaigns when the flu epidemics and other epidemics start, yet it is silent and has not warned the general public. Ridiculous.

 

Someone posted some supplemental show material in the pilot thread that was a CDC document of how to deal with the infected and the dead.  It also seems that the show wants it to appear that the government wants to avoid panic so I'm guessing that's the reason for the government silence.  

 

Travis's seizure delay tactic on Alicia worked a treat. What a guy.

 

This is why I don't like junkie characters.  You have to waste resources taking care of an adult with a self inflicted ailment.

 

Tobias and his quest to find one tiny little knife made me question his cv for the ZA.

 

That bugged me too but another poster suggested he was really there for the food and just happened to hear Madison breaking into the contraband cabinet.  I'll go with that.

 

 

Is it weird that watching somebody puke grosses me out more than zombies eating people?

 

Nope.  I'm the same way.  Watching someone get beheaded, disembowled or eaten alive barely makes me flinch.  Seeing someone throw up almost always makes me turn away.  I'm even more grossed out with seeing someone take a shit.

 

As far as reports about it going unnoticed....It was funny because my nephew and I were talking about when they had those reports about the "zombie" virus a few years ago.  I remember it was all over social media but it just received a lot of eye rolls.  So much untrue crap is posted on the Internet that I could see people completely ignoring it except for the true preppers like Tobias.

 

I can see that happening as well.  There are a lot of nuts, crackpots and conspiracy theorists in the prepper community.  I imagine a lot of information passed among them would be ignored or written off by the general public.

 

[AnnaMayWong]

I tend to cut the writers a lot of slack, and I can fan wank with the best of them, but I laughed every time Travis told Madison to go to the desert without him - he'd meet her there. You know - in the parking lot. Ha! Could we be just a little more specific about a meeting place in the freaking desert? Maybe: the third prairie dog village past that ant hill that looks like a volcano. Or something.

Gosh! I was thinking the same thing!(lol!!)

I continuously asked family members, " Where are they meeting?" Is there a specific super secret knock three times hideaway? Is The Desert the size of a sandbox? It was SO VERY dumb.

[AnnaMayWong]

That does make sense because the alternative is for them to be like "well, we know the boyfriend gets bit, so we clearly can't cast a black actor because of the backlash we might get."

But, you have to be cognizant of the differences in the NUMBER of actors versus who is killed. If most of the overall cast is non-black then you shouldn't just "death" the prominent few so quickly.

It's ridiculous.

It does hint a bit of close-minded bigotry. For instance, why the stereotypical black drug dealer? Just as many whites,... deal drugs.

Making allowances for this attitude disregards the fact that a slew of white actors will ALWAYS be present.

Gee Whiz, this is LA! A wide grouping of varying races live there!

It's as if THEY are saying, "We graciously gave you THREE whole black people. See! See! Yeah, they're deader than dirt, now, but they WERE there so what's the problem?"

It's like they thought and discussed, "Okay, let's show some black people so no one can say that we didn't. Whew, Okaa-ey, now, that we fulfilled that obligation, let's just kill 'em all. No loss."

Edited September 2, 2015 by BookElitist

[walnutqueen]

Gosh! I was thinking the same thing!(lol!!)

I continuously asked family members, " Where are they meeting?" Is there a specific super secret knock three times hideaway? Is The Desert the size of a sandbox? It was SO VERY dumb.

 

I worked with a bunch of people here in SoCal who spent weekends and holidays meeting up in "The Desert".  That's how they all referred to it, rather than an actual place; it was their shorthand for "the spot we all go to ride ATVs, dune buggies and dirt bikes".  So this sounded completely normal to me - it's an area where they most likely have vacationed in the past, and has a name they just don't use much.  Just like when my friends said "see you at the beach", I knew exactly which one of the dozens of nearby beaches they meant.  :-)

[Dobian]

It does look like the "we're all infected" virus is airborne; that presumably is the flu going around. The bites probably kill by severe infection. Anyone who dies is coming back regardless. If "we're all infected" though, why don't any of our main characters have the flu or mention a recent recovery from it?

 

Right, it's true that everyone is carrying the virus, it's just dormant.  Kind of like a lot of people carry the shingles virus (including me!), but may not break out with it for years, if at all.  But spreading the zombie plague only happens through biting (which leads to flu-like symptoms causing death), or people just dying as they always do.  I would think that in a real scenario, the CDC would enact strict quarantine protocols not only for when people are bitten, but in all situations where death has occurred.

[AnnaMayWong]

Somebody, please tell me why, why, why can't Madison exhibit ANY facial expressions! This is so very irritating to me that if she is NOT killed, I may not be able to continue viewing the show. Conversely, in a bizarre twist, her expressionless countenance is riveting. I kept wondering, Is she sad, scared, ill, what?! Obviously, it was a futile query because she has worn the. same. frackin' damn. expression for two fecking episodes. They should hire me. Even I could convey emotions better.

--------------------------------------------

Edited September 3, 2015 by BookElitist

[CletusMusashi]

Some of the grimaces she forms when she is trying to smile are actually entertaining. I'd like to see this issue come into play as a plot device. Like, maybe they could get kidnapped by an insane comedian, who won't let them go until he believes that they are honestly laughing at his jokes. Or we could see her run into a family who don't speak any English, and she'll be trying to say friendly reassuring things, but their subtitles as they talk to each other will be all "Why is she making that scary face?" "She looks angry." "Let's take our chances with those Fearful Things People Are Too Lazy To Make Up a Name For."

Edited September 2, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[catrox14]

I worked with a bunch of people here in SoCal who spent weekends and holidays meeting up in "The Desert". That's how they all referred to it, rather than an actual place; it was their shorthand for "the spot we all go to ride ATVs, dune buggies and dirt bikes". So this sounded completely normal to me - it's an area where they most likely have vacationed in the past, and has a name they just don't use much. Just like when my friends said "see you at the beach", I knew exactly which one of the dozens of nearby beaches they meant. :-)

And that makes sense if they have a specific spot that they all go to fairly often but we need to know that. Just a line of dialogue like "okay were going to meet up where we always go." Or "meet at the diner in Glamis." helps the audience see they aren't totally clueless.

[CletusMusashi]

Watch the whole series be the two different groups wandering around in the desert looking for each other. Travis will repeatedly try and fail to build a fire, Alicia will take advantage of her solar-powered ipod to sit and listen to music during every scene, and Nick will take too much peyote and marry a cactus. Occasionally Tobias, obviously in the middle of some much more exciting story, will race through the background on a motorcycle.

Edited September 6, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[Dobian]

Somebody, please tell me why, why, why can't Madison exhibit ANY facial expressions! This is so very irritating to me that if she is NOT killed, I may not be able to continue viewing the show. Conversely, in a bizarre twist, her expressionless countenance is riveting. I kept wondering, Is she sad, scared, ill, what?! Obviously, it was a futile query because she has worn the. same. frackin' damn. expression for two fecking episodes. They should hire me. Even I could better.

 

I vote for ill.  She has this perpetual look of mild nausea.

 

 

But, you have to be cognizant of the differences in the NUMBER of actors versus who is killed. If most of the overall cast is non-black then you shouldn't just "death" the prominent few so quickly.

It's ridiculous.

It does hint a bit of close-minded bigotry. For instance, why the stereotypical black drug dealer? Just as many whites,... deal drugs.

Making allowances for this attitude disregards the fact that a slew of white actors will ALWAYS be present.

Gee Whiz, this is LA! A wide grouping of varying races live there!

It's as if THEY are saying, "We graciously gave you THREE whole black people. See! See! Yeah, they're deader than dirt, now, but they WERE there so what's the problem?"

It's like they thought and discussed, "Okay, let's show some black people so no one can say that we didn't. Whew, Okaa-ey, now, that we fulfilled that obligation, let's just kill 'em all. No loss."

 

I disagree.  It seems like every time they don't cast someone who's non-white or kill off someone who's non-white, someone yells racism.  Television is as diverse as it gets, and Walking Dead has a track record of cycling a steady stream of characters of all backgrounds in its cast.  How many Latino characters have we already seen the first two episodes?  I think you are mistaken if you think those were the last black actors we will see on this show.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Dobian

[AnnaMayWong]

Yeah, right it's fine if they're sprinkled a bit here and a bit there--kind of like black garnishes.

[Nashville]

Watch the whole series be the two different groups wandering around in the desert looking for each other.

Nah. Too Jewish.

[Dobian]

Yeah, right it's fine if they're sprinkled a bit here and a bit there--kind of like black garnishes.

 

Have you watched the parent show?  So to you Michonne is "garnish"?  Really?

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Just an example of the lack of attention to detail that I see in this franchise: The whole plot point about riots arising because people think cops are shooting unarmed people. How many attacks would there be before a cop shoots a zombie while hoards of people with cell phone cameras are around to record it? How many attacks before people start getting sick from bites?  If we are to believe what's laid out in FTWD, not a whole lot. At least not enough to inundate the public awareness of the attacks. How is it possible that most of the public is more aware of cop shootings and people getting sick than attacks?

 

Why is this happening? Well, in Kirkland land, characters service the plot. That's how it is, so all this pretense about it being a show about a family is handcuffed by it's approach from the start. The public needs to be more aware of cop shootings and illness than the attacks because the plot needs it's teenagers running around the city like idiots rebelling against their parents. To those who are annoyed that Madison isn't telling her daughter anything, you are right, it's stupid and it doesn't serve the character, but the daughter has to be ignorant so she can sneak out and meet her zombie boyfriend right? Characters servicing the plot.

 

Good post.

 

FTWD would rather focus on teen angst and 'rebellion' than showing what the general public is seeing or not seeing.  There's so much more they could be doing with this....

 

-  What are the news reports like?  Are there any??  (referenced by Nick trying to find something about it on the truck radio - and one heard about "staying indoors if don't have to be out")

-  At this point [show time], how many people are seeing walkers?  How are they reacting to them?  Is it the same for everyone (ie, approaching them, trying to help them and then getting attacked)??

-  We were shown the cop loading his cruiser with water and the neighbor packing up to leave, is there a lot more people who are doing the same?

-  Are there more "doomsday preppers" out there, like Tobias, who know a lot more about what's going on?  What are they doing in preparation for it??

-  Was the time/day that the principal was walking the school the same day as they let classes out early?  If not (and even if, after it cleared out), why's he patrolling an empty mausoleum of a school for??  Do they regularly get kids/people getting in and either stealing stuff or vandalizing?

-  and on, and on, and on.....

 

There are so many other avenues and potential ways to tell this story;  but no, we're stuck looking at it through the viewpoint of angsty rebellious teenagers and a lady who displays nearly sociopathic tendencies and a freeze-framed facial expression most the time.

[Jodithgrace]

I'm sorry, Walking Dead fans..I am really trying with this show, but it is just so..stupid!

When Madison and her husband finally meet up in "the desert," what are they planning to eat? Madison told Tobias, who talks like he's already half zombie,  that she has food; but if her pantry is anything like mine, it's full of half boxes of pasta, seltzer and assorted exotic condiments. Certainly not enough for a family of four (or more) to live an indeterminate amount of time, even if you assume that junkies don't eat much. Alicia already wasted a precious can of soup on him! 

But yet she left that stash of food sitting in the front entrance of the school..because..

When she and Tobias got into the car, i assumed that they were going to drive the car to the entrance and load it up. Sure they were scared and traumatized (not that they showed this in any way) but this is survival, folks!  Instead she drops Tobias off with his limp little backpack and not so much as a can of beans.

I spent the rest of the episode worrying about the damn food!

Edited September 2, 2015 by Jodithgrace

[Haleth]

Maybe they'll show later that she went back and took all the food for herself. Suck it, Tobias!

[AnnaMayWong]

I was cringing the whole time Alicia cleaned up the vomit withher long, long hair practically dangling in it. Then she touched her hair with her barfy gloves. Gah!

________________________________________________________

Oh, I was cringing too. I was so hoping that she would tie back or upsweep her hair as it dangled ever so close to the rancid spew. I had to take several deep breaths . It was nauseous( no pun intended).

Wanna know what I found both comedic and disturbing? No? Well, I'm going to tell you anyway: Nick taking the container of drugs and casually calmly remarking, "Oxycontin, yeah that should do it." And, then, unhurriedly begins crushing and grinding the pills whilst slightly turning to 'Madison the Mask' in a somewhat leisurely comfortable concerned family conversation about THE SISTER who knows nothing about anything, who just finished swabbing the deck glutinous with Narcotic Nick's splattered slimy spew, and who has NOT caused even one iota of trouble.

*A death wielding junkie crushing drugs while conversing with his death wielding super addict enabler mother about the Berkeley Bound responsible partial caretaker burdened daughter. As if she is the problem!

It was ludicrous and almost surrealistic.

________________________

Edited September 3, 2015 by BookElitist

[AnnaMayWong]

Have you watched the parent show? So to you Michonne is "garnish"? Really?

That is utter rubbish.

I am discussing THIS series. The NON-LITERAL comparison was utilized as a mode of emphasizing the apparent trivial and dismissive use of Three specific black characters whose histories and current stories were integral to and intertwined with the central family's life. YET, ALL THREE were vanquished before the end of the 2nd episode.

So, in response to your question about a tangential topic to mine, no, I do not consider Michonne(not a Fear...character) as garnish. She is more of a delicately spiced yet robust main course, REALLY.

---------------------------------------

Edited September 3, 2015 by BookElitist

[Ohwell]

I vote for ill.  She has this perpetual look of mild nausea.

Bingo!  I swear that's how she looks.

[bunnyblue]

I think it would be ballsy if the writers have killed off the entire family by the end of the season. 

 

I've had the same thought but I don't think they'll kill them all by season's end. However, if the show only airs for 2-3 seasons, I'd like to see a scenario where only 1 member of the Clark/Manawa family is left standing. And that person would have to find their own CDB-type family to continue on in the ZA.

[Dobian]

That is utter rubbish.

I am discussing THIS series. The NON-LITERAL comparison was utilized as a mode of emphasizing the apparent trivial and dismissive use of Three specific black characters whose histories and current stories were integral to and intertwined with the central family's life. YET, ALL THREE were vanquished before the end of the 2nd episode.

So, in response to your question about a tangential topic to mine, no, I do not consider Michonne(not a Fear...character) as garnish. She is more of a delicately spiced yet robust main course, REALLY.

 

 

You've just judged the entire series after two episodes.  That's like doing a movie review after the first five minutes.  So they were black, so what?  EVERYONE dies on these shows.  Those characters were expendable, they happened to cast black actors in the roles.  How do you know those characters were integral to the family's life?  One was a drug dealer.  How would he have fit in after the start of the zombie apocalypse?  Would he have continued to be the son's dealer while the family runs around trying to escape the walkers?  The daughter's boyfriend, how was he integral?  He's just a teenage boyfriend, he is not a central figure in the family's life.  And the school principal or whatever, how would he have been critical to the family in the post-apocalypse?  He was a boss at a place of work.  Obviously the writers decided none of these characters had a future, they were just part of the setup for the story.  They were important so that the main characters could be made aware on a personal level of the disaster that was in the making.  That's how they were written, regardless of how the roles were cast.  Why is everything made about race these days?  It's become epidemic.  There's really no basis for your argument.  These were short-term characters, period.  There were also no Jews, Asians, Muslims, or Indians that I saw in the first two episodes, I don't hear you complaining about that.  I have no doubt there will be a regular or recurring African American character on this show soon enough, and if it's a good character I won't care if he or she is from Mars. Walking Dead shows are about two races only: humans and walkers.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Dobian

[Cthulhudrew]

Why is this happening? Well, in Kirkland land, characters service the plot.

 

Everything you wrote is on point, but this in particular- this is why I never read any of TWD beyond the first GN that I'd heard so many good things about (and even reading Kirkman's expectations/hopes for what he was doing in the forward I thought "he gets it!"; and then quickly realized- he may get it, but he can't write it well.)

 

It's also why TWD has gotten increasingly rote and underwhelming to me as they more closely mirror the plots and dialogue in the books (as I've been understanding is the case) as opposed to when the writers seemed to have a more free hand to use the broad strokes but then write around it and for the characters as they did more effectively in the first two seasons.

[CletusMusashi]

Saying characters service the plot is like saying The Plot is some kind of mystical force that the showrunner is powerless to oppose. The truth is actually quite the opposite. People control the story and casting. And when those people try to squirm out of it, those people aren't "arteests." They are weasels.

And when the story/casting relationship is absurdly repetitive, what you've got left is not a very suspenseful show.

Racist-baiting hyperbole aside: If their default was to accidentally cast blond guys with crew cuts,  and only them, only for the expendable male roles, that would still not be a good idea. "Oh no. Alicia and Sven Bjorgsen are walking through that junkyard alone! I wonder who will get killed by a zombie in.. five, four, three.. CHOMP!"

Edited September 3, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[NurseGiGi]

Good post.

 

FTWD would rather focus on teen angst and 'rebellion' than showing what the general public is seeing or not seeing.  There's so much more they could be doing with this....

 

-  What are the news reports like?  Are there any??  (referenced by Nick trying to find something about it on the truck radio - and one heard about "staying indoors if don't have to be out")

-  At this point [show time], how many people are seeing walkers?  How are they reacting to them?  Is it the same for everyone (ie, approaching them, trying to help them and then getting attacked)??

-  We were shown the cop loading his cruiser with water and the neighbor packing up to leave, is there a lot more people who are doing the same?

-  Are there more "doomsday preppers" out there, like Tobias, who know a lot more about what's going on?  What are they doing in preparation for it??

-  Was the time/day that the principal was walking the school the same day as they let classes out early?  If not (and even if, after it cleared out), why's he patrolling an empty mausoleum of a school for??  Do they regularly get kids/people getting in and either stealing stuff or vandalizing?

-  and on, and on, and on.....

 

There are so many other avenues and potential ways to tell this story;  but no, we're stuck looking at it through the viewpoint of angsty rebellious teenagers and a lady who displays nearly sociopathic tendencies and a freeze-framed facial expression most the time.

Excellent post and you expressed everything I was thinking only much better.  I, too, was wondering why the principal was wandering around the school with his walkie when the school was obviously empty.  Was he straightening up his office when he heard a strange noise and went to investigate?  And who was supposed to be manning the other walkie?  

[Sakura12]

 And who was supposed to be manning the other walkie?  

 

Well, someone bit him. So I imagine there was someone else there, maybe a janitor or security guard? They probably could've had more dialogue in that scene since it was mostly useless. Like, the other person on the walkie asking if he found George or if he found the source of sounds they'd been hearing. That would've been enough to explain the scene to me.

[AnnaMayWong]

That is utter rubbish.

I am discussing THIS series. The NON-LITERAL comparison was utilized as a mode of emphasizing the apparent trivial and dismissive use of Three specific black characters whose histories and current stories were integral to and intertwined with the central family's life. YET, ALL THREE were vanquished before the end of the 2nd episode.

So, in response to your question about a tangential topic to mine, no, I do not consider Michonne(not a Fear...character) as garnish. She is more of a delicately spiced yet robust main course, REALLY.

You've just judged the entire series after two episodes. That's like doing a movie review after the first five minutes. So they were black, so what? EVERYONE dies on these shows. Those characters were expendable, they happened to cast black actors in the roles. How do you know those characters were integral to the family's life? One was a drug dealer. How would he have fit in after the start of the zombie apocalypse? Would he have continued to be the son's dealer while the family runs around trying to escape the walkers? The daughter's boyfriend, how was he integral? He's just a teenage boyfriend, he is not a central figure in the family's life. And the school principal or whatever, how would he have been critical to the family in the post-apocalypse? He was a boss at a place of work. Obviously the writers decided none of these characters had a future, they were just part of the setup for the story. They were important so that the main characters could be made aware on a personal level of the disaster that was in the making. That's how they were written, regardless of how the roles were cast. Why is everything made about race these days? It's become epidemic. There's really no basis for your argument. These were short-term characters, period. There were also no Jews, Asians, Muslims, or Indians that I saw in the first two episodes, I don't hear you complaining about that. I have no doubt there will be a regular or recurring African American character on this show soon enough, and if it's a good character I won't care if he or she is from Mars. Walking Dead shows are about two races only: humans and walkers.

[AnnaMayWong]

Well, first let me state that I am able to DISCUSS what I wish. And, will continue to do so whenever I wish.

I am not writing a persuasive argument paper. I do not care if you agree with me, nor am I attempting to alter your opinion. Once again, THIS is MY perspective and opinion.

Since, I am not COMPLAINING about ANYthing, I have no idea about what you are talking. If you don't care for MY OPINIONS then you may ignore them or disengage from any of my content.

I never indicated that other minority groups were not given short shrift. They were. However, I am not penning a treatise. *My discussion centered on ONE aspect of these specific episodes within this particular program.*

I do not believe that I or any one poster is required to discuss any and all sides to any and all topics under discussion regardless of its initiation. You appear to obsessed by my OPINION. It's not going to change-- about THESE TWO episodes. I have not seen any additional episodes, so I have not proffered statements on upcoming episodes. Therefore, I fail to grasp the relevance of you stating that I haven't viewed them--No, I have not nor have I opined,... about them. Are you saying that I must view all episodes before I am able to comment on what I have seen thus far. I cannot comment on CURRENT episodes but others can?

I most certainly do believe those characters were integral to each individual in the FAMILY.

* Personal (be it positive or negative) life and *Job life=THEIR LIFE.

1. (The Boyfriend--->Daughter)

2. (Cal---->Well-known to family and main drug dealer to Son)

3. (Principal---->of school wherein Mom worked as counselor and "Dad" worked as teacher)

This is My party and I can discuss whatever I want to...

If you don't like it, the door is but a keystroke away.

ETA: to 'clean up' the wording in one sentence which was bugging me.

---------------------------------------------

Edited September 3, 2015 by BookElitist

[kdm07]

Wanna know what I found both comedic and disturbing? No? Well, I'm going to tell you anyway: Nick taking the container of drugs and casually calmly remarking, "Oxycontin, yeah that should do it." And, then, unhurriedly begins crushing and grinding the pills whilst slightly turning to 'Madison the Mask' in a somewhat leisurely comfortable concerned family conversation about THE SISTER who knows nothing about anything, who just finished swabbing the deck glutinous with Narcotic Nick's splattered slimy spew, and who has NOT caused even one iota of trouble.

*A death wielding junkie crushing drugs while conversing with his death wielding super addict enabler mother about the Berkeley Bound responsible partial caretaker burdened daughter. As if she is the problem!

It was ludicrous and almost surrealistic.

 

This. A 1000 times this. I posted about it before but she is acting out because no one, absolutely no one, is giving her a reasonable explanation as to why she can't be a good person and help her sick boyfriend or her neighbours who're being attacked. Instead she's being treated like she's the problem child who doesn't deserve answers while her mother does everything in her power to help and/or enable her drug-addict son. A little heads up to your daughter would probably save you a lot of grief Madison! I'm seriously hoping they say something to her in the next episode because their reticence is going to get her killed.

Edited September 3, 2015 by kdm07

[Yolapukka]

 

 

Wanna know what I found both comedic and disturbing? No? Well, I'm going to tell you anyway: Nick taking the container of drugs and casually calmly remarking, "Oxycontin, yeah that should do it." And, then, unhurriedly begins crushing and grinding the pills whilst slightly turning to 'Madison the Mask' in a somewhat leisurely comfortable concerned family conversation about THE SISTER who knows nothing about anything, who just finished swabbing the deck glutinous with Narcotic Nick's splattered slimy spew, and who has NOT caused even one iota of trouble.

 

*A death wielding junkie crushing drugs while conversing with his death wielding super addict enabler mother about the Berkeley Bound responsible partial caretaker burdened daughter. As if she is the problem!

Honestly, I love Nick and hope he's not doomed because he's the breakout character in this but neither he nor the mother are necessary caretakers to Alicia except in the dangerous way that they are failing to share information with her. Nick at least did try to tell her at one point, but he was in no condition to communicate effectively. I could love Alicia if the writing was there, the character has a good base and the actress is expressive and appropriate.

 

Rant;

Also, in an indirect way that quote kind of sums up why female teen characters are problematic, they are either Mary-Sues, with little personality, or they are given personality by means of being a burden. Either way they usually exist only to make us care about their parents and caregivers and to be be reckless and in danger when plot point calls for it. They are either rainbow unicorns or an albatross and often both. Male teens only fare slightly better, but they get a lot of the same writing. (See; Chris* who is so far unbearable) So, on the one hand she's the beloved child who surpasses expectations and is possibly bland as a result, but on the other, she's mouthy, impulsive and she's going to get into scrapes and endanger others and exist to be grating, or a walking Maguffin.  It's so fucking stupid though, because if writers would follow the writing they give the character to logical consequences, she'd be competent and capable but instead they have the contrivance that she doesn't understand the danger (because nobody is telling her). We have story hinging on whether she is a good girl who simply needs to do as her elders tell her.  The characters flaw is she's not sufficiently childlike and deferential enough, as someone who is close to if not past the age of majority and is mere months from starting to live independently.  This would have worked better if they had made the character a little older, maybe had her and the boyfriend visiting home on their off-time from Berkely, because then she'd be independent enough that they wouldn't be drawing on such dull, tiresome tropes as they establish the character. Or maybe not, maybe they'd still go for the same cookie-cutter family drama , only it would be even more ridiculous when the character is infantilized.

 

* Chris only seems to exist to give Travis a credible reason to leave Madison during a crisis and to tie ex-wife Liza to Travis. So far he's shreiky and annoying.

Edited September 3, 2015 by yuggapukka

[that one guy]

 

find it kinda strange that anyone would go looting after rioting about what they thought was cops shooting an innocent man.  Oh the cops shoot innocent people, but they'll just leave rioters to spread mayhem.

This is almost always what has triggered rioting and looting in the US the past 60 years. Almost every major urban riot started with the cops beating or shooting someone. I found this part of the show to be highly realistic, so much that it was kinda disturbing.

 

Like, I don't know, everyone, I'm bothered by Madison. She's not worried about legal consequences, either when her son killed his dealer or when she robs the school for drugs and bashes the principal's head in with a fire extinguisher. She's gonna do well in the apocalypse. But why is she like this? Rick Grimes was a cop. Carol Peletier was abused. What's Madison's story? Does it have to do with last week's comments about addiction being hereditary? But she's a school counselor, which means she passed a background check. She may be in recovery, but it's unlikely she has killed before unless she didn't get caught. She seems a little too calm for all this. Maybe the'll get to the backstory, but why not tell us? I hate it when shows don't tell you stuff that all the characters already know.

 

The fire extinguisher scene was done better in "Dead Set." When she bashed his head in, I found myself saying "In the head. You've got to get them in the head!" in a faux British accent. Now THAT was an apocalypse.

[Ronin Jackson]

Saying characters service the plot is like saying The Plot is some kind of mystical force that the showrunner is powerless to oppose. The truth is actually quite the opposite. People control the story and casting. And when those people try to squirm out of it, those people aren't "arteests." They are weasels.

And when the story/casting relationship is absurdly repetitive, what you've got left is not a very suspenseful show.

Racist-baiting hyperbole aside: If their default was to accidentally cast blond guys with crew cuts,  and only them, only for the expendable male roles, that would still not be a good idea. "Oh no. Alicia and Sven Bjorgsen are walking through that junkyard alone! I wonder who will get killed by a zombie in.. five, four, three.. CHOMP!"

 

Well, since I made the characters servicing plot comment, I can't say I understand this rebuttal, but I also don't think we're on the same page regarding what my comment meant. I have no idea how the comment can mean that The Plot is a mystical force that cannot be opposed. It's not letting the writers off the hook (is that what you are trying to say? I have seriously have no idea). The writers are of course, in full control of the plot, and they have a choice whether the plot is going to flow organically from the characters motivations, or whether characters will act in ways to bring about plot points/conflicts even when it doesn't really come from authentic or natural character motivation. This show has examples but it's a little early since it's unknown how all the plot points play out. A good example from the parent show was 

when Carol killed Karen and David. It made no sense, but it caused internal strife in the group, which is what the writers were looking for. But it's not as though Carol had been written as a character who is likely to do something like that. It came out of left field.

[AnnaMayWong]

Honestly, I love Nick and hope he's not doomed because he's the breakout character in this but neither he nor the mother are necessary caretakers to Alicia except in the dangerous way that they are failing to share information with her. Nick at least did try to tell her at one point, but he was in no condition to communicate effectively. I could love Alicia if the writing was there, the character has a good base and the actress is expressive and appropriate.

Rant;

Also, in an indirect way that quote kind of sums up why female teen characters are problematic, they are either Mary-Sues, with little personality, or they are given personality by means of being a burden. Either way they usually exist only to make us care about their parents and caregivers and to be be reckless and in danger when plot point calls for it. They are either rainbow unicorns or an albatross and often both. Male teens only fare slightly better, but they get a lot of the same writing. (See; Chris* who is so far unbearable) So, on the one hand she's the beloved child who surpasses expectations and is possibly bland as a result, but on the other, she's mouthy, impulsive and she's going to get into scrapes and endanger others and exist to be grating, or a walking Maguffin. It's so fucking stupid though, because if writers would follow the writing they give the character to logical consequences, she'd be competent and capable but instead they have the contrivance that she doesn't understand the danger (because nobody is telling her). We have story hinging on whether she is a good girl who simply needs to do as her elders tell her. The characters flaw is she's not sufficiently childlike and deferential enough, as someone who is close to if not past the age of majority and is mere months from starting to live independently. This would have worked better if they had made the character a little older, maybe had her and the boyfriend visiting home on their off-time from Berkely, because then she'd be independent enough that they wouldn't be drawing on such dull, tiresome tropes as they establish the character. Or maybe not, maybe they'd still go for the same cookie-cutter family drama , only it would be even more ridiculous when the character is infantilized.

* Chris only seems to exist to give Travis a credible reason to leave Madison during a crisis and to tie ex-wife Liza to Travis. So far he's shreiky and annoying.

[CletusMusashi]

Actually, I was responding to the Dave Erickson interview that Raven 1707 quotes at the top of the page.

[AnnaMayWong]

Super post, yuggapukka! Thoroughly agree!

I wasn't saying Alicia was the burden, but is burdenED...with Nick and Madison's RELIANCE on her to AID in the care of Nick

This is almost always what has triggered rioting and looting in the US the past 60 years. Almost every major urban riot started with the cops beating or shooting someone. I found this part of the show to be highly realistic, so much that it was kinda disturbing.

Like, I don't know, everyone, I'm bothered by Madison. She's not worried about legal consequences, either when her son killed his dealer or when she robs the school for drugs and bashes the principal's head in with a fire extinguisher. She's gonna do well in the apocalypse. But why is she like this? Rick Grimes was a cop. Carol Peletier was abused. What's Madison's story? Does it have to do with last week's comments about addiction being hereditary? But she's a school counselor, which means she passed a background check. She may be in recovery, but it's unlikely she has killed before unless she didn't get caught. She seems a little too calm for all this. Maybe the'll get to the backstory, but why not tell us? I hate it when shows don't tell you stuff that all the characters already know.

The fire extinguisher scene was done better in "Dead Set." When she bashed his head in, I found myself saying "In the head. You've got to get them in the head!" in a faux British accent. Now THAT was an apocalypse.

Oh my gosh, that one guy! You and others are ON FIRE with your comments. This is GREAT!

------------------

Edited September 3, 2015 by BookElitist

[kaydub]

I liked it more than last week. I hated Alicia shining a torch out the window, though. I hardly ever talk back to my TV, but I was cringing, and saying, "stop that!" way to attract the attention of the violent person across the road, walker or not. I understand the urge to help, but be more careful.

that scene alone reminded me of that moment in the first Jurassic park movie when the t-rex shows up, the girl panics cos she's alone in the car with her little brother after the lawyer ran away in fear, and digs out a flashlight to shine around and brings the t-rex to them when otherwise it would've just left them behind lol.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

A little heads up to your daughter would probably save you a lot of grief Madison! I'm seriously hoping they say something to her in the next episode because their reticence is going to get her killed.

 

And deprive them of the opportunity to have her shocking moment of discovery when she slips away to check on her boyfriend only to discover him dead, and worse- to her abject horror!- he rises again and tries to kill her!?!?!

 

Because, you know, DRAMA! :p

[peach]

Somebody, please tell me why, why, why can't Madison exhibit ANY facial expressions! This is so very irritating to me that if she is NOT killed, I may not be able to continue viewing the show. Conversely, in a bizarre twist, her expressionless countenance is riveting. I kept wondering, Is she sad, scared, ill, what?! Obviously, it was a futile query because she has worn the. same. frackin' damn. expression for two fecking episodes. They should hire me. Even I could convey emotions better.

 

Hey, now.  Sometimes she squints.

This is almost always what has triggered rioting and looting in the US the past 60 years. Almost every major urban riot started with the cops beating or shooting someone. I found this part of the show to be highly realistic, so much that it was kinda disturbing.

 

Agreed. I live in St Louis, and I can say that was all pretty realistic.  Except for the five L.A. cops with riot shields.  FIVE, seriously?  But that shit runs rampant fast, and they do let it go, because they are ORDERED to.  It seems like some people missed the entire Baltimore situation IRL.

[Nashville]

Hey, now.  Sometimes she squints.

 

Both eyes?

At the same time?

Because, you know, ACTING!

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Excellent post and you expressed everything I was thinking only much better.  I, too, was wondering why the principal was wandering around the school with his walkie when the school was obviously empty.  Was he straightening up his office when he heard a strange noise and went to investigate?  And who was supposed to be manning the other walkie?  

 

Well, someone bit him. So I imagine there was someone else there, maybe a janitor or security guard? They probably could've had more dialogue in that scene since it was mostly useless. Like, the other person on the walkie asking if he found George or if he found the source of sounds they'd been hearing. That would've been enough to explain the scene to me.

 

These two posts are excellent examples of the kind of stuff that would enhance the viewing experience.  I think we were supposed to just be so happy to finally see a walker up close again, who cares how he got to be that way.  That may work for a lot of other people, but to me, its an empty viewing experience.  Yeah, a walker bit Artie, but who was it and why were they in the school?  Why/how did that walker become one??  At least with TWD, we do usually get explanations as to how/why events occurred, even if its much later in the episode or in a later one.  (not sure I hold out that hope for this show, though)

Edited September 3, 2015 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[kaydub]

It's a necessary disconnect... would the show be more interesting if the characters were watching Night of the Living Dead on itunes as a survival guide rather than figuring it out for themselves?

also, hence why they've always referred to the undead as 'walkers' (or biters) and never 'zombies' on the mother show (TWD).

 

Edited September 3, 2015 by kaydub