Class, Gender, Race, etc. in Commercials

[Jamoche]

 

Thank you for clarifying, Janie Jones, and I suppose you're on target. OTOH, what I was largely responding to from Jamoche was:

 

 

I don't know about anyone else, but when I hear "male gaze", there's an implication that makes me uncomfortable. I don't pretend that some men don't see looks first, last, and always, but much as real life men actually do sometimes know how to clean the house, buy the right brand of whatever, and take care of their children, sometimes they also care about something other than how hot a woman is or isn't. "Female gaze" exists, yes, but no one would ever use it in a pervy sort of way. Men might be more susceptible to being dirty-minded, but years ago there was this ad:

 

 

and that dude only took his shirt off, but you'd think these ladies had never seen a man before.

 

Yeah, I was meaning "male gaze" in an uncomfortable way. I can't pin down exactly what makes it read that way to me, but Victoria's Secret manages to say "Here's a sexy ad. Men, aren't they sexy? Ladies, don't you want to be sexy like this?" while this ad just says "Hey guys, check it out!" with not even a nod at the way women like to feel sexy.

[proserpina65]

Yeah, I was meaning "male gaze" in an uncomfortable way. I can't pin down exactly what makes it read that way to me, but Victoria's Secret manages to say "Here's a sexy ad. Men, aren't they sexy? Ladies, don't you want to be sexy like this?" while this ad just says "Hey guys, check it out!" with not even a nod at the way women like to feel sexy.

 

But different women like to feel sexy in different ways.  Me, I find the kind of sexy in that Heidi Klum ad appealing in a "if only underwires weren't so damned uncomfortable" way.  I actually find it less potentially offensive than the average Victoria's Secret commercial - I always saw those as aimed completely at men.  Heidi's ad to me seems more fun and cool, and the VS ones seem more, not sleazy exactly, but more overtly sexual.  Not that I particularly care about the VS commercials either.

 

So I guess what I'm saying is the read I get from both Heidi's commercial and various VS ones is the exact opposite of yours.  But hey, vive le difference.

Edited March 28, 2016 by proserpina65

[NewDigs]

Yeah, I was meaning "male gaze" in an uncomfortable way. I can't pin down exactly what makes it read that way to me, but Victoria's Secret manages to say "Here's a sexy ad. Men, aren't they sexy? Ladies, don't you want to be sexy like this?" while this ad just says "Hey guys, check it out!" with not even a nod at the way women like to feel sexy.

I think the VS commercial manages to say, Hey guys! Don't you want your woman to wear something sexxxy like this? Get it at VS.

And an unsuspecting woman receives something possibly inappropriate and probably uncomfortable and definitely suggestive for her b-day, v-day, xmas...

[Trini]

Here's a more recent 'female gaze' ad:

 

 

Which is a rarity anyway, and shirtlessness especially rare.

[LoneHaranguer]

 

I think the VS commercial manages to say, Hey guys! Don't you want your woman to wear something sexxxy like this? Get it at VS.

VS has some ads that run in cycles with the tag line "what is sexy". The odd thing is that half the models in them seem to be clueless about looking sexy. It's like they think just because they put on lingerie for the ad, that's enough, and they don't have to look like they feel sexy wearing it. Women in movies have done better in a business suit.

[janie jones]

Yeah, I was meaning "male gaze" in an uncomfortable way. I can't pin down exactly what makes it read that way to me, but Victoria's Secret manages to say "Here's a sexy ad. Men, aren't they sexy? Ladies, don't you want to be sexy like this?" while this ad just says "Hey guys, check it out!" with not even a nod at the way women like to feel sexy.

Probably what makes you feel that way is the major pelvic thrust she gives at the beginning.

 

I'd say a major difference between VS ads and this commercial is that Victoria's Secret is coming right out and saying sexy sexy sexy, but the Heidi Klum one seems like it's trying to pretend that isn't what they're going for, instead going for goofy, while she's wearing high heels like a porn actress.  It seems a little disingenuous.

[mansonlamps]

Probably what makes you feel that way is the major pelvic thrust she gives at the beginning.

 

I'd say a major difference between VS ads and this commercial is that Victoria's Secret is coming right out and saying sexy sexy sexy, but the Heidi Klum one seems like it's trying to pretend that isn't what they're going for, instead going for goofy, while she's wearing high heels like a porn actress.  It seems a little disingenuous.

I haven't seen the Heidi Klum ad, but I find her so disingenuous and patronizing on Project Runway in the last couple of seasons that I automatically want to side against her when reading these posts. Especially towards larger our "real" women. I know a lot of beautiful women have difficulties with aging, and I see Heidi really fitting into that mold. She'll be wearing mini skirts and crop tops into her seventies and thinking she fits in with the current supermodel of the day. And still calling her breasts boobies.

[smittykins]

One Heidi Klum ad I liked was for VW, set up like a talk show with a classic(rear-engine)black Beetle as host, which turns red from blushing when she compliments it.

Edited April 20, 2016 by smittykins

[proserpina65]

I haven't seen the Heidi Klum ad, but I find her so disingenuous and patronizing on Project Runway in the last couple of seasons that I automatically want to side against her when reading these posts. Especially towards larger our "real" women. I know a lot of beautiful women have difficulties with aging, and I see Heidi really fitting into that mold. She'll be wearing mini skirts and crop tops into her seventies and thinking she fits in with the current supermodel of the day. And still calling her breasts boobies.

And still saying that "short, tight and shiny" skirts and dresses are tacky, all the while wearing exactly that.

[erikdepressant]

In case you haven't already seen it 192 times today...

I started obsessing over this commercial.  Specifically, the conception and production of this commerical:

When the idea of a talking refrigerator magnet came up, what other fun ethnicities were suggested?

What did the casting call for the job look like?

How much of that dialogue was scripted before the recording session?  Who wrote the script?

 

What's fascinating the hell out of me is imagining the actual recording session.  You know it took many, many takes.  So what did the rejected takes sound like?  Most importantly: What notes was the director giving the voiceover artist?

[janie jones]

I don't understand how that woman manages to have only three things on her refrigerator.  (I know it's not an only on TV thing; I just never know how people do it.)  Or else, I don't understand how she cleared everything else off her refrigerator and managed to leave the giraffe and two letters.  And then why she didn't take the letters.

[Haleth]

never mind

Edited April 23, 2016 by Haleth

[Trini]

...

I started obsessing over this commercial.  Specifically, the conception and production of this commerical:

When the idea of a talking refrigerator magnet came up, what other fun ethnicities were suggested?

What did the casting call for the job look like?

How much of that dialogue was scripted before the recording session?  Who wrote the script?

 

What's fascinating the hell out of me is imagining the actual recording session.  You know it took many, many takes.  So what did the rejected takes sound like?  Most importantly: What notes was the director giving the voiceover artist?

 

Yes! I found the clip: comedian Gabriel Iglesias talks about his experience recording for a cartoon:

 

 

I'm guessing the actress was asked to be "sassier", "urban", or "real". ETA: Maybe "colorful".

Edited April 25, 2016 by Trini

[mojoween]

I am going to be sexist, and as a chick I should know better, but "Ace is the place for the helpful hardware folks" just sounds dumb.

And in my own experience, if I'm at Ace, or Home Depot, or Lowe's, or True Value, I'm going to look for an older dude to help me if I need help.

[CoderLady]

6 hours ago, mojoween said:

I am going to be sexist, and as a chick I should know better, but "Ace is the place for the helpful hardware folks" just sounds dumb.

And in my own experience, if I'm at Ace, or Home Depot, or Lowe's, or True Value, I'm going to look for an older dude to help me if I need help.

Showing I'm old, I remember when it was "Ace is the place with the helpful hardware man" but political correctness caught up with them several years ago.

Like you, if it's advice on how to do something hardware-ish and not just a question like which aisle the furnace filters are on, I look for someone who might have some skills, and that usually is an older guy.

[ABay]

I'll consult whichever worker approaches me and asks "can I help you??, as long as it doesn't have an implied "little lady" at the end. Women are less likely to patronize me and more likely to point me toward solutions that don't require herculean strength or a staggering.number of tools and other products.

Edited June 2, 2016 by ABay

[janie jones]

On 6/2/2016 at 9:19 AM, CoderLady said:

"Ace is the place with the helpful hardware man"

Yeesh.  That is way less catchy than "folks."

[mojoween]

That was the tagline throughout my childhood so the new version with "folks" is very jarring to my ear, anyways.

[frenchtoast]

I don't remember how it started, but there was a brisk discussion over in the Commcerials That Annoy about men v women treatment in the workplace. To bring that more into the idea of commercials and advertisements, I read this a few months ago and it stuck with me. This especially stuck with me: 

Quote

The impulse to notify a widely visible woman of one’s dissatisfaction with her looks rests on the notion that women’s bodies are made for public consumption. 

I think that's the larger issue at work here--that women's bodies are for public consumption and therefore praise or criticism. 

As advertising has progressed, advertisers use men and women in similar roles: trusted friend, sibling, goofy. I'd love to see one with a hapless mom and a got-it-together dad though. That pisses me off to no end. Mostly because it is a disservice to men and women. But mostly men. I like to think that advertisers are getting smarter, and trying to put more relatable stuff out there. We don't want to buy a product if we can't see ourselves using it right? So that razor ad with the women emojis come to life that was pilloried, yeah...that can go eff off.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

3 hours ago, frenchtoast said:

I don't remember how it started, but there was a brisk discussion over in the Commcerials That Annoy about men v women treatment in the workplace. To bring that more into the idea of commercials and advertisements, I read this a few months ago and it stuck with me. This especially stuck with me:

Quote

The impulse to notify a widely visible woman of one’s dissatisfaction with her looks rests on the notion that women’s bodies are made for public consumption.[/quote from article]

I'm not necessarily certain this is what you mean, but generally speaking, women judge other women just as often - and just as harshly - as men ever could.

I work in an office, and seven times out of ten if someone is wearing something inappropriate for the workplace, its my female co-workers who comment on it. The stereotype of the catty secretary is fairly dated, but only to a point. I'm not suggesting that men don't judge and make comments, but the guys I work with aren't particularly interested in whether or not your shoes match the rest of your outfit.

As for commercials, I'm still waiting for ads where men are competent at X Domestic Thing instead of being bumbling idiots who can't read well enough to choose the right detergent. I say it a lot in the Annoying Commercials thread, but it's really insulting that its only the guys who can't get their shit together, usually with their wives and/or girlfriends look at them like they're moronic children.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Cobalt Stargazer

[erikdepressant]

38 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

IAs for commercials, I'm still waiting for ads where men are competent at X Domestic Thing instead of being bumbling idiots who can't read well enough to choose the right detergent. I say it a lot in the Annoying Commercials thread, but it's really insulting that its only the guys who can't get their shit together, usually with their wives and/or girlfriends look at them like they're moronic children.

You know, I was trying to think of commercials where the man of the house wasn't depicted as an idiot, and the only examples I could come up with were commercials featuring single dads (widower status always implied).  On top of that, in those commercials I could remember, the dad's children were always girls.  On top of that, each commercial featured the obligatory scene of Dad doing something girly (tea parties, painted nails, etc).

I kind of understand why the dumb husband/dad in commercials exists.  Advertisers have to demonstrate that their product is the best choice.  One of the easiest and fastest ways to do that is to show a smarter person buying/using the product, while a dumber person makes the wrong choice.  I think it's pretty lazy.  Is any advertiser willing to risk showing a dumb wife/mother who has to be enlightened by her husband?

[frenchtoast]

46 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I'm not necessarily certain this is what you mean, but generally speaking, women judge other women just as often - and just as harshly - as men ever could.

I work in an office, and seven times out of ten if someone is wearing something inappropriate for the workplace, its my female co-workers who comment on it. The stereotype of the catty secretary is fairly dated, but only to a point. I'm not suggesting that men don't judge and make comments, but the guys I work with aren't particularly interested in whether or not your shoes match the rest of your outfit.

As for commercials, I'm still waiting for ads where men are competent at X Domestic Thing instead of being bumbling idiots who can't read well enough to choose the right detergent. I say it a lot in the Annoying Commercials thread, but it's really insulting that its only the guys who can't get their shit together, usually with their wives and/or girlfriends look at them like they're moronic children.

It is what I meant. Because women internalize the idea that a woman is basically a mannequin and for criticism and judgement. In fact I would argue that just proves how deep that goes--that women so roundly criticize and judge other women on appearance, because that's all that matters. 

As a personal example, my 10 year old daughter is already asking me to shave her legs. Already. She already knows she will be judged based on her appearance by everyone. Though she does take umbrage when a boy said she couldn't be smart because she's a girl. Yes, he actually said she couldn't have the right answer because that would mean she was smart and she couldn't be smart because she's a girl. 

Speaking of dad commercials, wasn't there one where the dad was doing the cheer routine with his daughter?  But ads for "domestic" (cleaners, appliances, food) products? Wasn't there a stay-at-home dad one with Tide. Even so, it'd be nice if we could see how real people use the product. On the flip side, we're supposed to want to buy it, so they create a fantasy instead of real.

[Rick Kitchen]

14 minutes ago, frenchtoast said:

As a personal example, my 10 year old daughter is already asking me to shave her legs. Already. She already knows she will be judged based on her appearance by everyone. Though she does take umbrage when a boy said she couldn't be smart because she's a girl. Yes, he actually said she couldn't have the right answer because that would mean she was smart and she couldn't be smart because she's a girl. 

I've been arguing in the YouTube comments (yeah, that's a lost cause) on a video where people were taking a test, and one woman was really proud of herself for doing well on the test, and the people in the comments are criticizing her for being so stuck up because she was proud of her accomplishment.  I told them it was bullying, but they won't back down.

[smittykins]

Speaking of dad commercials, wasn't there one where the dad was doing the cheer routine with his daughter?  But ads for "domestic" (cleaners, appliances, food) products? Wasn't there a stay-at-home dad one with Tide. Even so, it'd be nice if we could see how real people use the product. On the flip side, we're supposed to want to buy it, so they create a fantasy instead of real.

I remember the cheerleading one--"Those boys are much too much!"  I think it was for one of those "be a dad" organizations.  And I'm not sure if the dad in the "Lily's princess dress" Tide commercials is supposed to be divorced/widowed or just stay-at-home, but it's refreshing to see a man competent at laundry, without his wife hanging in the background making sure he doesn't screw it up(although I'm sure that somewhere there's a person saying "He lets her wear the same dress all week?!"

[janie jones]

4 hours ago, frenchtoast said:

It is what I meant. Because women internalize the idea that a woman is basically a mannequin and for criticism and judgement. In fact I would argue that just proves how deep that goes--that women so roundly criticize and judge other women on appearance, because that's all that matters.

I agree with this, but I think also there's sometimes an underlying (and probably unconscious) notion of "I don't feel like I can get away with disobeying society's appearance standards, so what makes her think she can."

[Jamoche]

7 hours ago, erikdepressant said:

 Is any advertiser willing to risk showing a dumb wife/mother who has to be enlightened by her husband?

Not husbands so much, but in the blur of bad afternoon TV ads ISTR some car related ones where the woman getting the service - repair, insurance, whatever - has a tone of "I have no clue what I'm doing, thank you so much Awesome Sales/Repairguy for doing that for me."

[Prevailing Wind]

Quote

"I don't feel like I can get away with disobeying society's appearance standards, so what makes her think she can."

You eventually reach an age where you just don't care. I've been there for a while now. My SIL is dismayed at my casual appearance and lack of make-up & eyebrow plucking, but she's hasn't reached the "no figs to give" stage yet. It's very liberating.

[janie jones]

3 hours ago, Prevailing Wind said:

You eventually reach an age where you just don't care.

True, but I think that some people  never reach that age.  Some women "grow out of it," but some never do.

Edited July 1, 2016 by janie jones

[Ohwell]

Some of us really do care even when we're older.  I don't wear as much makeup as when I was younger and I'd never, ever get cosmetic surgery to look younger, but I like still taking care of myself, plucked eyebrows and such.  I (half) jokingly told my sister that when I'm lying in my coffin, my toenails better be painted. : )  If it makes you feel better (and younger), then I say, go for it.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Ohwell

[Aquarius]

On 6/30/2016 at 9:53 PM, Jamoche said:

Not husbands so much, but in the blur of bad afternoon TV ads ISTR some car related ones where the woman getting the service - repair, insurance, whatever - has a tone of "I have no clue what I'm doing, thank you so much Awesome Sales/Repairguy for doing that for me."

Oh, yes, the "stupid husband" is really for anything non-mechanical, and usually household (read: cleaning or child-care) related.  Anything involving a tool, machines, or advanced thinking - and you've got "So easy anybody can do it!"  Usually punctuated by a woman's hand unwinding the telescoping wand or whatnot. 

[Neurochick]

I like the latest Fios commercial (which I saw again this morning) because it normalizes a black woman/white man relationship. 

But I HATE the Allstate commercial with Leslie Jones and this video is a good critique of it:

Edited July 17, 2016 by Neurochick

[topanga]

I hate the commercial also, but it seems to be a consistent part of Leslie Jones' schtick. I know that black women are often told to "black it up" for commercials and TV--I've heard many working actors say this in interviews--and we are often cast as the sassy black friend/neighbor/boss/co-worker.  Is someone telling Leslie to "black it up," or is this how she chooses to behave on camera? I've seen her talk and act this exact same way on SNL, in Ghostbusters, in this Allstate commercial, in the movie "Top Five," and on Match Game--where she was playing herself.In fact, the only time I've seen her not be a loud black woman is when she was recently a guest on "The View." Yes, she was energetic, but she was not sassy, she did not roll her neck, and she was not loud. And she did not use Ebonics (except for one unfortunate "We was" grammar slip-up). So is this loud, stereotypical black woman a character that Leslie chooses to play, or has she be persuaded (forced?) to always be this character? I'm not sure.

[Rick Kitchen]

I hate the yogurt bitch in the Cascade ad who's sitting in the living room while poor, harried husband is loading the dishwasher, yelling at him to be sure to hand wash the lasagna pan.  Nice family dynamic they have there.

 

Here's the video:

https://www.ispot.tv/ad/AG5p/cascade-platinum-yes-dear

Edited July 20, 2016 by Rick Kitchen

[theatremouse]

On 7/20/2016 at 1:21 PM, topanga said:

 So is this loud, stereotypical black woman a character that Leslie chooses to play, or has she be persuaded (forced?) to always be this character? I'm not sure.

Or third option: WYSIWYG and her actual personality (sometimes but not always) leans in this direction, and it's just amped up onscreen for comedic purposes. Personally, I don't find her "sassy". She is loud, frequently, but that seems to be her schtick, and it's not uncommon among comedians in general. I don't find her as knee-jerk stereotypical as I've seen some of her write-ups imply.

Edited July 25, 2016 by theatremouse

[janie jones]

FWIW, I know next to nothing about Leslie Jones.  I recently saw the cast of Ghostbusters on a late-night talk show.  Leslie Jones had a list of things she was looking for in a man, and some of the items were on the graphic side (like, what their penises should look like), and her general behavior was a little bit flamboyant.   So from the very little I know about her, her actions in the car commercial are in keeping with her shtick.  But at the same time, why does the guy in the car next to her have to be weirded out that she offered him her number?  I'm not saying all men need to find her attractive, but why do you want to send the message in the commercial that she's a weirdo?  I think it would have made for a cuter commercial (and probably less off-putting) if the guy had smiled ambiguously.

[caci]

See, I look at it from the female perspective that if a loud mouthed man drove up to me and offered his number, I would be pretty weirded out too.

[janie jones]

Good point!  I would be none too pleased myself.

I remember someone saying once that if you're watching a documentary about coyotes, you want the coyote to catch the rabbit.  If the documentary is about rabbits, you want the rabbit to evade the coyote.  I guess since she's the protagonist of the commercial, I want the guy to like her.

[Neurochick]

On 7/21/2016 at 7:30 AM, theatremouse said:

Or third option: WYSIWYG and her actual personality (sometimes but not always) leans in this direction, and it's jumped amped up onscreen for comedic purposes. Personally, I don't find her "sassy". She is loud, frequently, but that seems to be her schtick, and it's not uncommon among comedians in general. I don't find her as knee-jerk stereotypical as I've seen some of her write-ups imply.

I think the problem isn't Leslie Jones at all.  The problem is there aren't enough black women who look like her on TV. 

[Muffyn]

On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 10:53 AM, Neurochick said:

I think the problem isn't Leslie Jones at all.  The problem is there aren't enough black women who look like her on TV. 

Yes!  The critique of this commercial offered in the clip bothers me more than the commercial.  This is how Leslie looks.  She is a tall woman with short hair.  She does not wear visible makeup. She has a bold personality.  None of these should be seen as a negative.  The women doing the critique is noting her lack of femininity.  I am happy to see a different looking person on TV, especially when we see so few black women and the vast majority are fit into particular molds. 

What does annoy me in this commercial and so often in Leslie's work is the implication that no man would find her sexually appealing.  This has become part of her persona.  She makes sexually suggestive comments to a man and he responds with terror or revulsion.  It reinforces the idea that there is only one way to be a desirable female. 

[Trini]

On 7/14/2016 at 8:26 AM, Neurochick said:

I like the latest Fios commercial (which I saw again this morning) because it normalizes a black woman/white man relationship. 

But I HATE the Allstate commercial with Leslie Jones and this video is a good critique of it:

So I finally got around to watching this video critique, and while I agree with her about the issues with how Black women are portrayed in the media, I do not agree her assessment of Leslie Jones. I don't think just because she is wearing pants and minimal makeup, and has short hair that she is "eschewing femininity". And I wouldn't classify the Guy in the Car's reaction as "horrified" -- more like (rightfully) confused. They chose Leslie as a spokeswoman because she has a movie coming out and her star is rising -- not for her supposed "mannish" qualities.
 

On 7/20/2016 at 4:21 PM, topanga said:

I hate the commercial also, but it seems to be a consistent part of Leslie Jones' schtick. I know that black women are often told to "black it up" for commercials and TV--I've heard many working actors say this in interviews--and we are often cast as the sassy black friend/neighbor/boss/co-worker.  Is someone telling Leslie to "black it up," or is this how she chooses to behave on camera? I've seen her talk and act this exact same way on SNL, in Ghostbusters, in this Allstate commercial, in the movie "Top Five," and on Match Game--where she was playing herself.In fact, the only time I've seen her not be a loud black woman is when she was recently a guest on "The View." Yes, she was energetic, but she was not sassy, she did not roll her neck, and she was not loud. And she did not use Ebonics (except for one unfortunate "We was" grammar slip-up). So is this loud, stereotypical black woman a character that Leslie chooses to play, or has she be persuaded (forced?) to always be this character? I'm not sure.

I re-watched the ad trying to keep this view in mind, and I think that in this ad, her schtick is actually toned way down. I can see how people might have a problem with Leslie elsewhere, but in this instance, I don't see anything offensively egregious.

(... So now I'm wondering what this ad might look like if they had used one of her white, Ghostbusters co-stars instead....)

[Cobalt Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Trini said:

(... So now I'm wondering what this ad might look like if they had used one of her white, Ghostbusters co-stars instead....)

Ironically, Bridesmaids is on USA right now, and it occurs to me that Melissa McCarthy's schtick is much like Jones' - abrasive and loud characters who don't adhere to 'traditional' standards of attractiveness.

[Jamoche]

On July 24, 2016 at 4:02 PM, Trini said:

I don't think just because she is wearing pants and minimal makeup, and has short hair that she is "eschewing femininity".

Yeah, I skipped ahead because I'd seen the ad already and landed on that line. So much nope.

[Neurochick]

I like this commercial because it normalizes a black woman/white man relationship.

 

I see the commercial below, a lot when I watch things online.  It's gotten a lot of "dislikes" (hmm...wonder why)

[janie jones]

6 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I see the commercial below, a lot when I watch things online.  It's gotten a lot of "dislikes" (hmm...wonder why)

I can tell you why I dislike it, and it's because it's obnoxious as fuck when someone wearing headphones is singing along.

[Prevailing Wind]

...if you can call that singing. And get off my lawn.

[Neurochick]

12 hours ago, janie jones said:

I can tell you why I dislike it, and it's because it's obnoxious as fuck when someone wearing headphones is singing along.

Maybe, but somehow, I don't think that's the reason for all the dislikes.

Just like this one has more than a few dislikes.

Edited August 1, 2016 by Neurochick

[Prevailing Wind]

Why are they all listening to such crappy "music" ?

[LoneHaranguer]

4 hours ago, Prevailing Wind said:

Why are they all listening to such crappy "music" ?

Recording companies charge a lot more for the rights to use good music.

[Jamoche]

I've never seen an option to hit "dislike" on online ads, but I'd use it a lot. A 2 minute ad on a 30 second video? Get real. I'm not going to watch either of them now.

[janie jones]

13 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Maybe, but somehow, I don't think that's the reason for all the dislikes.

I didn't mean to imply that everyone dislikes it for the same reason as me.