Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell - General Discussion

[OakGoblinFly]

Thanks Holmbo and TexasGal. I'll post after reading. I love Terry Pratchett's footnotes. RIP, Sir Terry.

 

 

Clarke is no Pratchett ........ I found the book incredibly boring.  I like the premises of the book; the execution was lacking; it felt as if the author were trying too hard, everything felt forced. 

[Rhetorica]

Well to be honest, no one is like Pratchett. I'm still waiting for the ebook. I'll let you know. Really going to miss the show.

[Holmbo]

Mr Norrell and Stephen was the main delight of this episode for me. I loved Norrell's enjoyment of the magic when he finally let loose with it. And Stephen was so great with his utter despair and fear of the Gentleman and then at the end his bad asseness :)

Some book readers are disappointed with Lascelles faith in the show as compared to the book

where he suffers something worse than death.

but I'm fine with the show not spending more than some seconds on the last episode on his comeuppance.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Holmbo

[MrsE]

My only disappointment with regard to Lacelles's comeuppance is that it did not come at the hands of one John Childermass.  If anyone had the right to off the little squit it was Mr Tall Dark and Leaning.

[bmoore4026]

Sad ending but at least Arabella and Lady Pole are free.

 

It was also kind of satisfying for Lady Pole say to her husband "Fuck you, I'm leaving". Even if what he did was for love, she suffered because of it.

 

Where magicians go "beyond the rain"?  The Land of OZ?  Will season two be a Wizard of Oz crossover?  Fingers crossed!

 

Lastly, Childermass needs his own spin-off.

[SimoneS]

Poignant ending with Jonathan and Arabella's bittersweet reunion. Norrell redeems himself by helping Jonathan rescue Arabella. I am glad that Lady Pole was freed and then, freed herself from her husband.. Yay, Stephen is the new King. I am sure that he will remake that world into New Hope.

 

Hopefully, Childermass, Honeycut, and the other magicians will learn to read the new book and bring Jonathan and Norrell back to England one day.

Edited July 26, 2015 by SimoneS

[Rhetorica]

That was Wonderful! I'm so sad it's over...

In the sky on the other side of the rain...

Norrell was cute! He likes old magic! Loved he and Jonathan working together. Poor Drawlight didn't deserve that fate but Percy did. Stephen will make a compassionate King. Glad to see Childermass and Vinculus leading the magic society and I hope Belle, Mrs. Poole, and Flora are practicing magic as the female team!

Awwwww, I don't know what was more bittersweet - seeing Jonathan's singleminded determination to rescue Arabella finally pay off or when Mr. Norrell told Jonathan that he wouldn't leave him alone. I'm so glad that Jonathan and Norrell finally came came back together and worked together.

And thank goodness that someone finally killed Percy Weasley. Good lord, that guy was a total dick. Drawlight was an ass but at least he tried to do the right thing in the end (even if it was mostly out of fear due to Jonathan's threats). I was hoping that Drawlight would kick Percy Weasley in the nuts, steal his horse, and finish his errands.

Nice to see that Lady Pole and Arabella finally escaped Lost Hope (and that Flora and her father were so welcoming to Arabella when she popped out of their mirror in Venice). I still want to know what happened to Stephen, Norrell, and Jonathan. Are they just chilling on the other side of the mirrors? At least Jonathan was able to tell Arabella that he is around and not in pain. And where did the Raven King guy go? Heh, Mr. EB referred to him as Snape. And why did he change what was written on Vinculus?

I enjoyed this series, partly because Mr. EB kept giving his Harry Potter-esque interpretation of everything (when Jonathan started making himself go crazy in the previous episode, he said, "Sirius Black is going to end up in Azkaban"). I have had the book sitting in pile of things I need to read so I may unearth it and read it when I'm on vacation next month.

I think the Raven King knew he was being replaced and the prophesy was fulfilled, so he passed a new book on to the next king.

[Lindsey]

I'd forgotten how much I loved Childermass when I read the book and I think I liked him even more in the miniseries. Enzo Client did a really good job with that character.

 

When Norrell was holding Jonathan, all I could think was, "Bubba, you're my best-good friend." Because I am old.

 

I wish we'd gotten to see a little more of Stephen at then end (I think his ending in the book is a tiny bit more satisfying) but other than that I was fine the way the story ends without tying up every detail. I like to imagine Lady Pole going to Italy so she, Arabella, and Flora can hang out in Venice being awesome and answering to no one.

[kat165]

I loved at the end where Jonathan lays dying (or whatever) and Norrell is holding him and tells him do not be afraid, I'm not afraid.

That was awesome and so very moving. What an excellent series. I just wish it could have been longer.

[coppersin]

In short: fuck yes. That was so satisfying!

 

Since this was based on a book, I thought maybe everything would wrap up neatly at the end, but I like that the ending is a little more realistic than that. Not everyone lives happily ever after and some stories aren't finished at all, they continue just as life does. If there's a sequel, I'll be ecstatic; but if this is where we leave the characters, that's okay too. I was so curious about the Raven King, but it seems appropriate that he remains a mystery. I'm delighted that Childermass is guiding the magicians in England, because Chlldermass makes everything better. I don't know if Lady Pole wants anything to do with magic, but I would love her to join the other two ladies in Italy to create a kickass Ladies' Guild. 

 

Norrell's transformation through the episode, from fearful to focused to giddy to resolved, was beautiful. Making a portal of good English rain, skipping about Lost Hope, trying to blend in at the fairy ball. And reassuring Strange at the end - that was The Moment for me, because whatever came next, they were in it together; because England's two magicians were finally equals in every way; and because his level-headedness in the face of death felt like the sort of awesome teacher he could've been to Strange all along. All of the bits in the library were wonderful, though; he was back to the book-loving dork of episode one that I loved so much. In fact, he's probably my kindred spirit at this point, because facing the end of everything, I too would be negotiating the loss of my books and clutching them like a child clutches their security blanket. "We're gonna DIE!" "....One-third." Honestly, even his frizzy wig by the end was looking like my own tragic hair.

 

Between all the action and drama, I'm glad we had a few giggles. The walnut rifle was Chekhov's gun! Lady Pole throwing shade at The Gentleman's appearance and him being genuinely insulted by the thistle-hair comment. Moments of humor make any story better, and on this show they never distracted from the seriousness of scenes.

 

I'm in serious trouble if there's much of a gap between the release of a new book and a second season, because being unspoiled week to week heightened everything, but I doubt I could manage that kind of self-control a second time.

Edited July 26, 2015 by coppersin

[Haleth]

Wow, that was certainly action packed.  Not a slow minute for the entire episode.  A nice, happy ending would have been more satisfying, but at least there is room for a sequel to bring Strange and Norrell home.  That can be the first task of the Society of English Magicians.

 

Man, either I misremember the book or I seriously misunderstood.  For the life of me I could swear I'd read that Childermass was the Raven King.  For seven episodes I'd been waiting for the big reveal and anytime someone posted something about "Yay!  Childermass!" I was thinking, heh, just wait!  Oh well, whatever.

[coppersin]

When we saw the Raven King in the finale's promo, it was so quick that all I really registered was the dangly dark hair, and immediately thought, "Childermass is the Raven King! No wonder he's 100% more awesome than everyone else!" Still, I'm happy with where we left him - though Vinculus might wear on him after a bit. (Is "Vinculus" right? The human book.)

Edited July 26, 2015 by coppersin

[sluggish neko]

Huzzah! The ladies and Stephen get their agency back!

 

The last team-up between Strange and Norrell finally showed that true bond of friendship underneath the rivalry that was missing from their original meeting. Maybe it was an issue of time and pacing, but the closeness between Strange and Norrell when they were pupil and mentor was never fully established so when they broke up, it didn't have much of an impact. Also, it didn't help that Norrell (with an assist from Lascelles) went into full jerkass mode soon after. In this final episode, Norrell had lots of great moments. Norrell praising Strange's book, promising to help Arabella if Jonathan couldn't, urging Strange not to give up... I can almost forget how awful he's been in the last few episodes. And Strange shows the affection and respect he's always had for Norrell. How great was it that they reconcile after Jonathan laughs at Norrell's rain spell and it's that very rain that transports them to Lost Hope to save Arabella?

 

What Vinculus said to Childermass as the Black Tower vanished was haunting: "They are the spell. They're the spell the Raven King has spun and that is all they've ever been. He's spinning it now." The Raven King is a mysterious unknown and the information Strange & Norrell had from books was spotty and inaccurate. They weren't even sure of his name. If that's the case, did the Raven King really kill a Fairy in the past? In the picture they showed of him, the Fairy lurking near the Raven King looked exactly like the Gentleman in the green suit. I wonder... could it be that the Raven King created Strange & Norrell and set events in motion... all to defeat and kill the Gentleman Fairy... that very same Fairy who plagued him? Then all of this was just one great spell woven to ensnare and kill a Fairy. And now that their job is done, the magicians returned to what they've always been. Pure magic. Well, that's my interpretation anyway. One of many, I'm sure.

 

I would totally watch the hell out of a show starring Childermass... as long as they retain the services of Enzo Cilenti and his seductive line readings.

[Rhetorica]

Huzzah! The ladies and Stephen get their agency back!

The last team-up between Strange and Norrell finally showed that true bond of friendship underneath the rivalry that was missing from their original meeting. Maybe it was an issue of time and pacing, but the closeness between Strange and Norrell when they were pupil and mentor was never fully established so when they broke up, it didn't have much of an impact. Also, it didn't help that Norrell (with an assist from Lascelles) went into full jerkass mode soon after. In this final episode, Norrell had lots of great moments. Norrell praising Strange's book, promising to help Arabella if Jonathan couldn't, urging Strange not to give up... I can almost forget how awful he's been in the last few episodes. And Strange shows the affection and respect he's always had for Norrell. How great was it that they reconcile after Jonathan laughs at Norrell's rain spell and it's that very rain that transports them to Lost Hope to save Arabella?

What Vinculus said to Childermass as the Black Tower vanished was haunting: "They are the spell. They're the spell the Raven King has spun and that is all they've ever been. He's spinning it now." The Raven King is a mysterious unknown and the information Strange & Norrell had from books was spotty and inaccurate. They weren't even sure of his name. If that's the case, did the Raven King really kill a Fairy in the past? In the picture they showed of him, the Fairy lurking near the Raven King looked exactly like the Gentleman in the green suit. I wonder... could it be that the Raven King created Strange & Norrell and set events in motion... all to defeat and kill the Gentleman Fairy... that very same Fairy who plagued him? Then all of this was just one great spell woven to ensnare and kill a Fairy. And now that their job is done, the magicians returned to what they've always been. Pure magic. Well, that's my interpretation anyway. One of many, I'm sure.

I would totally watch the hell out of a show starring Childermass... as long as they retain the services of Enzo Cilenti and his seductive line readings.

Great interpretation! That's why I like open endings. The story continues...

[cardigirl]

We've put all the magic in England in a butler and then we shot him!

Oh how I have loved this series, I am so sad it is over. What wonderful acting, production and storytelling!

And to think the Boston globe reviewer said this series failed to enchant. Well, I for one was completely enchanted.

I don't see how there could be a second series as there is no new book, just a rumor that the author is working on one. Correct?

[Alikhat]

It just devastates me that this is the series end. Especially since it apparently (and bafflingly) did so poorly ratings-wise in both Britain and the US. Pretty much guarantees this is the end of the line. I've heard that the author is writing a sequel of sorts. But it's been over ten years since the first book, so who knows when the next one will be published. Moreover, I heard she's pretty much done with Strange & Norrell and plans to set the next story in the same world, but with different characters. I'm sure that will be amusing, too. But I've gotten attached to the ones on hand.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Alikhat

[EverCat]

KAT165, ON 12 JUL 2015 - 02:01 AM, SAID:

The Fairy King told Arabella that her husband traded her for a piece of wood (which was the Arabella imposter/Moss Oak), but what did Jonathan actually do that allowed FK to take his wife? I don't remember and/or am unsure. Doesn't Jonathan have to strike some sort of bargain with FK in order for FK to get what he wants? I don't recall/understand how it was so easy for him to bring Arabella to the dance.

When the Moss Oak was taken to his house, she asked Jonathan if she was his wife and did he forsake previous wives. He said yes thinking he was comforting her but that was the oath. The Gentleman said Jonathan would do this unknowingly.

This is why I am still confused. Arabella had been whisked away during the night, and I thought it had

been some time until the Moss Oak arrived at the house, so how was the Gentleman able to enchant Arabella

before then? Also, I have just realized the women have no will of their own, seeing that their husbands are able to make these arrangements with the fairy.

I am still loving this show and wish each episode was 2 hours long. They go so quickly.

[Rhetorica]

KAT165, ON 12 JUL 2015 - 02:01 AM, SAID:

The Fairy King told Arabella that her husband traded her for a piece of wood (which was the Arabella imposter/Moss Oak), but what did Jonathan actually do that allowed FK to take his wife? I don't remember and/or am unsure. Doesn't Jonathan have to strike some sort of bargain with FK in order for FK to get what he wants? I don't recall/understand how it was so easy for him to bring Arabella to the dance.

This is why I am still confused. Arabella had been whisked away during the night, and I thought it had

been some time until the Moss Oak arrived at the house, so how was the Gentleman able to enchant Arabella

before then? Also, I have just realized the women have no will of their own, seeing that their husbands are able to make these arrangements with the fairy.

I am still loving this show and wish each episode was 2 hours long. They go so quickly.

The same amount of time elapsed from Arabella riding in the carriage with Stephen before seeing the Gentleman and the Wood Oak wandering on the moors until she asked Jonathan the question. Because, magic...

I agree about women and their free will. Keep watching and post after the finale and we'll talk more.

[freesia]

I thoroughly enjoyed that series!

 

I did want to go back to the prophecy, however. 

 

Two magicians shall appear in England…
The first shall fear me; the second shall long to behold me;
The first shall be governed by thieves and murderers; the second shall conspire at his own destruction;
The first shall bury his heart in a dark wood beneath the snow, yet still feel its ache;
The second shall see his dearest possession in his enemy’s hand…
Both will fail
And the nameless slave shall be a king in a strange land.
I will return. His words, not mine. I will return…“

 

 

I know the Raven King seems to have rewritten it, but the prophecy seems, for the most part, to have come true (other than the magicians "failing," if "failure" means the killing of the Gentleman).  I'm still wondering about the meaning of the first magician in the prophecy (who I think I feel fairly sure is Norrell) burying his heart in a dark wood beneath the snow, yet still feeling its ache.  When did this happen?  Unless this is in reference to Strange burying his "wife" who was really the moss oak?  But all the other clues point to Strange being the second magician.

 

Anyway, I echo others' calls for more of this story (especially to learn more about Childermass, who I find fascinating), but will also be content if this is where they leave it.

[Rhetorica]

I think these are backwards.

The first shall bury his heart in a dark wood beneath the snow, yet still feel its ache;

This, as you said, seems to refer to Jonathan and Arabelle.

The second shall see his dearest possession in his enemy’s hand…

This seems to refer to Mr. Morrell with magic in Jonathan's hands.

[lucindabelle]

I liked how Vinculus (the human book) said how meaning was written on his skin like it is with Stephen and Stephen goes on to describe how the color of his skin defines his role in English society. The transition from magical prophecy and fate to actual racial prejudice was well done.

 

Bertie Carvel sells Strange's desperation and grief really well. Someone give him an award! When Strange found out that the Fairy can't (or won't) bring Arabella back, his plea to see her again was oh so sad. I really felt for him. I was so glad he found his way to Lost Hope and discovered the truth so quickly. Toward the end, Strange-- in his shadowy black tower, with his disheveled hair, and his flock of ravens-- seems like a strong candidate for Raven King.

 

Actually I'm a bit jealous of the batty cat lady. Sometimes I wish I can be a cat and I'm perfectly sane. More specifically, if I could choose between being a lonely, aging, ailing woman trapped in a decaying apartment or being an active, fuzzy cat that can run around Venice chasing rats and pigeons, I'd choose cat. I mean, I'd have whiskers! and a tail! And now I have to go hug a certain striped kitty staring at me...

 

Most definitely! What's more she's clearly popular with those cats. One of them got on her lap. she'd have friends! Society!

 

This episode  was GREAT!

You rock Jonathan. Go to war!

his tears and despair were so affecting.

 

I loathe the gentleman.

 

I read the book but apparently have forgotten almost all of it.

[Holmbo]

I too have been wondering about that part of the prophecy. I think it seems pretty clear that Norrell is the first one, but I'm not sure what the heart in a dark wood beneath the snow is referring to. I tried googling it but I couldn't find any plausible explanation.

[sjohnson]

Emphasizing the titular protagonists are puppets is an interesting twist. Not sure it's deeply satisfying. 

 

Very fortunate for Strange's amour propre that the consequences of his resort to a fairy only result in politicians berating him. That way he doesn't need redemption. Worse, Strange's madness conveniently disappearing so that Norell's could be graciously allowed to redeem himself was not smoothly done. Strange cannot really blame everything on Norell (inadvertently forgiving the Gentleman!) and then condescend to forgive Norell. 

 

Puffing up Mrs. Pole for the whole series did not pay off at all. Stephen's rebellion against the Gentleman was vastly more important than her Doll House moment. 

 

Re-reading the novel! (I realize it's been ten year...no wonder I've forgotten so much of it.)

[MrsE]

I'm not sure what the heart in a dark wood beneath the snow is referring to.

 

 

 

I take it to be a reference to JS's loss of Arabella - he buried the Moss Oak version of her and there was snow on the ground when he did so.

[SomethingClever]

It's been so long since I read the novel that I didn't remember all the plot details, so I got to be kind of surprised by it. That was an awesome finale. Maybe my favorite TV episode of the year. Nearly every character gets an awesome moment, and all the Strange & Norrell interplay is so, so good. They get to be funny again (Norrell finding the joy of old magic and dancing in fairy land is so delightful) and the respect and friendship they find is genuinely heartwarming.

 

"I am not about to stand here and summon the most powerful magician who has ever lived and say to him 'I offer you all of English magic apart from, I am sorry, Gilbert Norrell's books!'"
"...Half of them."
"Mr. Norrell, we will both soon be dead! There will be no leisure for reading."
"...Two-thirds"

[Rhetorica]

I take it to be a reference to JS's loss of Arabella - he buried the Moss Oak version of her and there was snow on the ground when he did so.

But, as was said above, all the other clues point to Strange being the second magician and this line seems backwards. I can't imagine the author made such a mistake. So I think the second line, "The first shall bury his heart in a dark wood beneath the snow, yet still feel its ache;

The second shall see his dearest possession in his enemy’s hand…" Refers to the Gentleman having possession of Arabella, Jonathan's dearest possession. But I still don't understand Norrell's part.

ETA: What about Norrell's house? It was built upon the Raven King's land, so metaphorically, he burried his heart in a dark wood beneath the snow... It's a reach, I know.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Rhetorica

[WhiteStumbler]

Vinculus *is* known to have a few drinks. Easy mistake to make.

If Raven King isn't a band name yet, I call dibs.

Damn I'm going to miss this show. Great series all the way 'round.

[SomethingClever]

If Raven King isn't a band name yet, I call dibs.

 

I always like to name my mage characters in video games John Uskglass

[paramitch]

I loved this so much, even if some of the story beats felt very off to me as a book-reader and fan. I still feel that Lady Pole's story arc was cleaner and more understandable in the book, especially in regards to the timing of the shooting attempt on Mr. Norrell. In the book she does so only after

Arabella is taken by The Gentleman

.

 

It was also kind of satisfying for Lady Pole say to her husband "Fuck you, I'm leaving". Even if what he did was for love, she suffered because of it.

 

 

But he didn't do it for love, although it became apparent that he was at least somewhat fond of her. He did it because of her sizeable dowry (repeatedly mentioned as many pounds -- 1000 pounds? -- per year). His main reason for calling in Mr. Norrell was specified as being for money, not love.

 

Mr Norrell and Stephen was the main delight of this episode for me. I loved Norrell's enjoyment of the magic when he finally let loose with it. And Stephen was so great with his utter despair and fear of the Gentleman and then at the end his bad asseness :)

Some book readers are disappointed with Lascelles faith in the show as compared to the book

where he suffers something worse than death.

but I'm fine with the show not spending more than some seconds on the last episode on his comeuppance.

 

I loved this but was disappointed in the handling of Stephen's realization. There was so much more power in the book moment because it comes out of left field and Stephen is truly saddened at having to kill The Gentleman

, who he thanks for always having been kind to him

.

 

I liked the TV handling of Lascelles because it was suitably nasty; the book version is subtler, although certainly unsavory.

I'd forgotten how much I loved Childermass when I read the book and I think I liked him even more in the miniseries. Enzo Client did a really good job with that character.

When Norrell was holding Jonathan, all I could think was, "Bubba, you're my best-good friend." Because I am old.

I wish we'd gotten to see a little more of Stephen at then end (I think his ending in the book is a tiny bit more satisfying) but other than that I was fine the way the story ends without tying up every detail. I like to imagine Lady Pole going to Italy so she, Arabella, and Flora can hang out in Venice being awesome and answering to no one.

 

In reading, the book (many times), I remember thinking, "I am more and more certain that Childermass is hot." When watching the show, I have no doubt at all. Woof.
 

Meanwhile, on Stephen, I found his arc more satisfying in the book. I was unhappy at the huge amount of buildup to his moment

(and then we don't even see him bring Lost-Hope back to life and take the kingship, as we do in the book)

But the actor was just perfect and beautifully conveyed this air of nobility to him. I was just bummed that the TV version seemed to simplify him and take away the real empathy and understanding he had for The Gentleman in spite of his enchantment.

 

Norrell's transformation through the episode, from fearful to focused to giddy to resolved, was beautiful. Making a portal of good English rain, skipping about Lost Hope, trying to blend in at the fairy ball. And reassuring Strange at the end - that was The Moment for me, because whatever came next, they were in it together; because England's two magicians were finally equals in every way; and because his level-headedness in the face of death felt like the sort of awesome teacher he could've been to Strange all along. All of the bits in the library were wonderful, though; he was back to the book-loving dork of episode one that I loved so much. In fact, he's probably my kindred spirit at this point, because facing the end of everything, I too would be negotiating the loss of my books and clutching them like a child clutches their security blanket. "We're gonna DIE!" "....One-third." Honestly, even his frizzy wig by the end was looking like my own tragic hair.

 

I absolutely think the final scenes between Norrell and Strange were wonderful, funny, charming, sweet, heartbreaking, and poignant, and vastly improved upon the way the book handled their final interactions. Their final conversations -- and the way Norrell was gobsmacked to realize, "there is no enemy here" was just beautiful and perfectly in keeping with Norrell's affection for Strange throughout (even when following his villainous advisors in becoming his enemy). The real throughline to both men is that they love magic and respect one another. I loved the way the show ended with them and the actors were wonderful.

 

The last team-up between Strange and Norrell finally showed that true bond of friendship underneath the rivalry that was missing from their original meeting. Maybe it was an issue of time and pacing, but the closeness between Strange and Norrell when they were pupil and mentor was never fully established so when they broke up, it didn't have much of an impact. Also, it didn't help that Norrell (with an assist from Lascelles) went into full jerkass mode soon after. In this final episode, Norrell had lots of great moments. Norrell praising Strange's book, promising to help Arabella if Jonathan couldn't, urging Strange not to give up... I can almost forget how awful he's been in the last few episodes. And Strange shows the affection and respect he's always had for Norrell. How great was it that they reconcile after Jonathan laughs at Norrell's rain spell and it's that very rain that transports them to Lost Hope to save Arabella?

 

I think though that that distance or estrangement (tension) was dramatically useful and necessary because of the essential natures of the two men. Norrell loves and fears magic. Strange is brilliant at it, is fearless, yet doesn't quite treat it with the proper respect. I understand why Norrell is terrified of him and what he represents.

 

I think these are backwards.
The first shall bury his heart in a dark wood beneath the snow, yet still feel its ache;
This, as you said, seems to refer to Jonathan and Arabelle.
The second shall see his dearest possession in his enemy’s hand…
This seems to refer to Mr. Morrell with magic in Jonathan's hands.

 

If it helps, the poem is definitely not backwards. Mr. Norrell's is the heart buried in the woods, as his is the heart that loves magic but that is also too afraid to face or confront it directly. He has hidden it away, just as he hid away his life, his love of magic, his books.

 

Look at how he manages his magic, his power, his information, and his books -- he hides them away from the world, wanting to keep all the power for himself. But in consequence, he is alone and lonely. He has buried his heart in a dark wood. The magician with his "dearest possession in his enemy's hand" is Strange, with Arabella (however Victorian and distasteful it is to look upon Bell as a simple possession).

 

My own minor complaint is that I felt the Raven King was not romantic enough, that he should in fact not look like a reject from Marilyn Manson but like a windswept free figure (dark-haired but not with the long fake horsehair wig). I also sorely missed the sweetness and humor of his appearance to Childermass -- in the book,

he saves Childermass, heals him, and then revives Vinculus, but Childermass doesn't recognize him and is impudent and cross, and the Raven King is bemused by this, since he knows he is the person Childermass has most longed to meet.

 

Meanwhile, I thoroughly enjoyed the entire series -- beautiful adaptation of a gorgeous and wonderfully complex (and often very funny) book, and with a superb cast. I thought everyone was wonderful.

Also, why is it that Strange left my heart cold until he started going bonkers? The wilder his hair got and the more unkempt he appeared, the more attractive I found him! Such is human nature, sigh.

[WhiteStumbler]

Segundus:      Childermass!  What happened to your face?

Childermass:  Someone mistook it for an apple.

Now I finally understand your quote. I thought I had missed some throwaway piece of dialogue in one of the exposition-heavy early episodes.

[MrsE]

Mr N:  We put all the magic in England into a butler - and then we shot him!

[pachyderm]

i love this show!

[Holmbo]

The ending in the show made me question some of my impressions of the ending in the book. For example when Jonathan and Arabella parted in the book I understood it as they where expecting to reunite in the future. But in the show Jonathan said for her not to wait for him but to move on with her life.

Another difference to me was Emma and Walter Poole. In the book we never see how they get along afterward but I assumed they would go on being married but in the show Emma was clearly planning on leaving.

Now it seems like all I care about are the relationship, but these are the main two things that I had different impressions on from book vs show where I'm not sure if it is differences in adaptation or not.

[WhiteStumbler]

Lady Pole: I have had my fill of you gentlemen taking what you want of me. But I have my voice now and I say you are a bore, sir! An uncivilised, unsightly, filthy bore, with your tasteless clothes and with your hair like... thistledown!

[Rhetorica]

I just got the ebook. I've only read the first chapter and it is delightful! All the footnotes are at the end, so that's where I'll read them so not to disrupt the flow.

[sjohnson]

Re-read the novel (after ten years) upon completion of the show. 

 

The show went all out on the dialogue where Norell broke down and basically confessed his love for Strange. I suppose they needed to since they turned Norell into the Big Bad for the show, instead of the Gentleman. In many ways it was very touching, but I didn't quite adore Strange as much as the show did. I think in the book Norell's heart is buried in his library, which is the "dark wood" of book shelves designed like trees covered by snow (white paper of the books,) yet did feel longing for companionship. I guess giving away his library was his final gift of his heart to Strange. I'm not sure that the way Norell was coded for homosexuality really fits the character in the book.

 

It was Lascelles I think who was coded as gay in the book. His flamboyance in the show I think a bit obvious.

 

They built Mrs. Hope up like crazy, even to the point where she pulled a Nora and renounced her husband, short shrifting Stephen's kingship. I positively disliked this aspect of the climax. As part of emphasizing Norell's villainy they omitted much of the Gentleman's villainy and even his zaniness, as in the gifts for Stephen. 

 

Having the moss-wife trick Strange was a good touch on the novel's part. 

 

On screen, elevating Vinculus into an equal or even superior to Norell and Childermass made his declaration that Strange and Norell were puppets of the Raven King ("spells") carried much, much more impact than the book, where it came across much more as just one man's opinion, and not the most reliable man's either. 

 

I'm not sure why the show made Segundus nearly screw things up, except to denigrate the character. 

 

I guess the biggest change is the "death" of Strange and Norell. Most of the farewell dialogue is therefore changed, even when it is verbatim from the book. "Don't be a widow" means Arabella is to remarry. 

Edited July 30, 2015 by sjohnson

[Captanne]

What?  Gay?

 

Wow.

 

I did not get that at. all.

[Holmbo]

Me neither. I don't see where the interpretation that there was anything sexual in his feelings towards Strange would come from.

[lucindabelle]

I just thought he changed the prophecy so that now the magicians win,

I remember in the book thinking not even farewell sex? Sigh.

Yes, sequel needed! Now!

[lucindabelle]

Nor i. A man can love another man without being gay after all.

[Rhetorica]

Nope, I didn't see that either. Jonathan was Mr. Norrell's closest colleague and friend. He knew that in the end and loved him for that.

[FoundTime]

Such a wonderful series, and I so enjoyed coming here to read everyone's thoughts each week. I thought the story really picked up with the last two episodes -- they just flew by and took my breath away at moments with some of the imagery -- and the finale was very satisfying. I'm reading the (e)book now (a chapter before bed is just right) and it helps to have pictures of the characters in my head.

(I was surprised that Lascelles appeared so early on.)

I agree, it is very funny in spots, and I am enjoying reliving the story. I just wasn't ready to let go of these characters when the show ended!

[MajorMarket]

I've finished the series (never read the book) but wanted to chime in here that I'm glad that I've watched this series:  excellent work! 

 

And, count me in as a personal fan of Childermass.  He may not be "high society" but the man gets things done, which is a big plus!  Even Drawlight's return to the story by being sprung from debtors' prison was welcome.  But, I'm saddened at how he exited the story.  Even a weasely courtier deserves some dignity.

 

But, as for the spinoff talk, Ms. Clarke seems to be savoring the moments to write but I'm not rushing her.  If she dawdles and misses her window of opportunity, it is all on her.  I'll be patient.

[MajorMarket]

While I'm a bit glum that the series has ended, I'm VERY happy that this 7-episode show wrapped it up nicely.  I despise those shows that go on for season after season, lurching from story arc to increasingly implausible story arc depending on whether or not they are renewed for another season.  They end up tiring me out with suspensions of disbelief. 

 

Or, worse, end up not wrapping anything up in their final ludicrous story arc (I'm looking at you "Southland").  So, I'm happy that there was a nice conclusion to this book adaptation.  Would I liked there to be 5 more episodes?  Sure!  But, I'm satisfied that this series was well worth the time investment.

 

If a book sequel comes out and is made into a second series, I'll be there.  Especially, if Childermass is front and center.  Yowza.

[cardigirl]

Until doctor who returns I am bereft . I hope it will get a repeat performance so I can watch it all again. BBC America is not on my on demand. :(

[SonofaBiscuit]

Oh no, I did not realize that this was a one and done type thing.  I also didn't realize that the ratings were not great either.  I watched the finale and assumed that the second season would begin with Childermass and maybe Segundas trying to get Jonathan and Mr. Norrell back.  Well, now I'm sad :(

 

I'll admit, The Gentleman grew on me...he was actually kind of funny at times.  And speaking of funny, Mr. Norrell trying to "blend in" by performing some dance moves in the fairy land cracked me up.  

 

I hope that the man who played Childermass shows up in something good soon, because I'd like to listen to his lovely lovely voice again.

 

 

Also, why is it that Strange left my heart cold until he started going bonkers? The wilder his hair got and the more unkempt he appeared, the more attractive I found him! Such is human nature, sigh.

 

Same, same.  I was pretty meh on Jonathan until he began his descent into madness.  Loved him by the end...I guess that whole storyline just really worked for me.

 

I'm very glad that Jonathan and Mr. Norrell finally came together in the end, and I thought it was just the sweetest thing when Norrell told Strange that his book was the greatest book of magic that he had ever read.  Aw!

 

 

 

[MrsE]

I hope that the man who played Childermass shows up in something good soon, because I'd like to listen to his lovely lovely voice again.

 

 

He has a number of projects in the offing, but you might be disappointed.  Enzo Cilenti sounds nothing like Childermass whose voice was something he created for the character.  Here he is talking about how he arrived at that voice:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqMxT2DL-tM

Edited August 6, 2015 by MrsE

[paramitch]

That reminds me of Michael McElhatton, the guy who plays Roose Bolton on "Game of Thrones." The guy is evil on that show, but my lord, his soft, elegant voice is just wonderful -- pure velvet. But it isn't the actor's real voice (from what I understand), and while I've seen him in several other projects and he's always a good actor, I really miss his "Roose Voice!"

 

So along similar lines, I'm kind of bummed to hear that Cilenti did not (or does not) in fact sound like that. But I still thought Childermass was hot.

 

Meanwhile, I'm very sorry to hear that ratings weren't great -- it was a lovely adaptation and really offered a wealth of wonderfulness for those who were willing to be patient with the worldbuilding in the first episode or two. It all built spectacularly too.

 

But if it is all there is, I definitely treasure it as a marvelous adaptation and a truly wonderful miniseries. And I have to add -- Eddie Marsan, who played Norrell, is just a godsend. The guy can do anything. I've seen him play so many characters -- fat, thin, old, young, English, Bostonian, snooty, streetside, etc., and the guy can just do whatever is asked. He seems able to transform himself at will, and brings the comedy or the tragedy in equal measure as needed.

 

And he managed to give Mr. Norrell this puzzled, pursed innocence that made him kind of adorable to me (and very funny) in ways the character wasn't for me in the book, where I mostly found Norrell dry and exasperating. But Marsan is just a brilliant actor and (leading a wonderful cast), I really feel he was the glue -- he gave us a Norrell we understood, and didn't hate, because so much of him was built on fear and a genuine belief that he was doing the right things (even when he so obviously wasn't). And added to all of that was his real and palpable love of magic -- so much so that he could attempt to be stingy about it and keep it all for himself, except when he was in the presence of real talent like Strange, when he was so delighted and grateful (not least at his own rediscovery of magic and his joy in it) that he was utterly incapable of being ungenerous even when he tried).

 

Edited for clarity! Babbling ensued.

Edited August 6, 2015 by paramitch

[rab01]

I just got the ebook. I've only read the first chapter and it is delightful! All the footnotes are at the end, so that's where I'll read them so not to disrupt the flow.

I'm glad you're enjoying the book.  I couldn't get more than 200 pages into it a few years ago and I like long fantasy books (and like the TV series).  I think my mistake was reading all the footnotes.

[Rhetorica]

I'm glad you're enjoying the book. I couldn't get more than 200 pages into it a few years ago and I like long fantasy books (and like the TV series). I think my mistake was reading all the footnotes.

I agree. I flipped to the back once and it went on and on. Plus it really didn't add to the storyline. I think the author was asked to cut this part and she just couldn't. So she just added them as footnotes. This is not based on anything factual, mind you.