Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell - General Discussion

[MajorMarket]

After seeing multiple commercials for this show, I finally started watching it on demand.  Finished the first 3 episodes this afternoon and I have to say that I am charmed by it.

 

It took a bit of wrapping my head that magic is acceptable to regular English society.  At first, I thought that every magician would be laughed out of every scene but it is cute how it dovetails into normal conversation.

 

I have to agree that some of the jokes are quite understated and clever:  a great combination!  I did not know that these were based on a book but I'm not running out to read it since I want to let it all flow organically.

[kat165]

Thank you, Rhetorica, man that was sneaky! I hope it doesn't end well for Fairy King. I really dislike this guy.

 

I loved the visuals of the snow scenes.

 

Yes, Norrell is a sad little man.

 

I've fascinated by Childermass.

[LiveenLetLive]

 

I've fascinated by Childermass

I find him really cute (giggles in a girlish way.)

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Promo:

[SonofaBiscuit]

I find myself really enjoying Jonathan and his storyline, and kind of disliking Norrell.  That's a surprise to me because I was kind of meh on Jonathan when the series first started, and I thought Norrell was an entertaining little man.  But at this point, I'm really not a fan of Norrell's secrecy, paranoia, and overall controlling nature.

 

Here's hoping that Percy (don't remember the guy's actual name, ha) meets a very bad end.  The way that he's always whispering in Norrell's ear, advising him on what he needs to do, is quite irritating.  Oh, and I didn't appreciate the way that he kept referring to Childermass as a "servant" (Can we talk without the servants present?  and all that nonsense.  GTFO!).  

 

I find that I have to watch with the Closed Captioning on, or I miss a heck of a lot of dialogue.  I mean, it doesn't help that half the people are talking in riddles, but still...

[pbutler111]

Thank goodness that Segundus and Honeyfoot are finally starting to decipher Lady Pole's ramblings. If only they had listened to her when she said to send a message to Jonathan. I was surprised that Arabella answered the door herself when Steven came for her. Don't they have servants to do that kind of thing for them?

This bit really did strain credulity. Not only did she answer the door herself, but she did so in her nightgown. Then she leaves the house -- in her nightgown! -- without saying a word to anyone. I don't care how urgent the guy made it sound, no one -- particularly a woman -- is going to just run out in their night clothes. This, to me, for sheer implausibility, was right up there with Arabella and Jonathan never mentioning to each other the fact that neither of them had apparently written to the other while he was away.

I'm hoping the Gentleman comes to a very bad end.

I don't know that it's possible for him to come to an end. He may be thwarted in this particular endeavor, but I'm pretty sure he's otherwise eternal.

[coppersin]

Nooo, got back into town today to find that a summer storm had cut off the cable, and the last bit of the show. Can someone please tell me what happened in the last 10-15 minutes? It cut off at faux Arabella's funeral.

 

When the show started, I was sure I would love Norrell because of his antisocial, book-hoarding ways, but he's starting to grate. He's behaving horribly, and his scenes seem so reactionary now - we only see him griping about a book being published, wanting to control the magic population, etc. We don't see much of him actually DOING anything. Eddie Marsan is doing well with the role - he can convey plenty with just a look - but if this show is going to be about Strange vs. Norrell, then I need more from him. Right now my only reactions to him are annoyance and frustration, and a bit of sadness because his loneliness seems very genuine. But mostly it's just the annoyance and frustration. Seriously, Norrell: look at your life, look at your choices.

 

There are a few characters I enjoy most, but it's Childermass that keeps my attention best. He's straightforward and useful, and even though he has stayed in Norrell's service (despite TAKING A BULLET AND BEING CHIDED FOR IT), he's not afraid to speak up or look for answers. His part in the story isn't directed by his career or love life, so I think the audience can rely on him to have a practical view of whatever comes. (And I may or may not be developing a thing for him, and locks of hair falling in his face).

 

The Gentleman is awful, but at least he's amusing. Turning a page or flicking Norrell's neck just because. Heh. I'm curious if his disdain for Strange is because he's a mere mortal, because he's a magician, or if it's both. I'm also curious of his history with the Raven King, especially if the Raven King turns out to be a character we already know. If the Raven King/his reincarnation has the power to destroy a magical being like The Gentleman, it would finally tip the power scale out of his favor. At least we have Lady Pole trying to work against him for now. She keeps failing, and keeps trying again. She doesn't seem as complacent as Stephen, and I'm hoping this will work to her favor. She has gone mad, but how much of that is her current restraints? She can't speak regarding anything pertinent. She's being held in an "asylum" with two (albeit adorable, well-intentioned) guards. She probably never really rests because when she sleeps, she goes to the fairy ball. She has a Cassandra complex of knowing crap is coming but not getting anyone to listen. I have a small hope that she may survive this and recover. Her mind may be soothed once her life is her own again. IMO, her most heartbreaking scene thus far was crying to Norrell that she was only 19; when he replied that she still had an entire lifetime of this to go, her sobbing was awful.

 

How many books are in the series? Has season 1 followed book 1 so far?

 

This bit really did strain credulity. Not only did she answer the door herself, but she did so in her nightgown. Then she leaves the house -- in her nightgown! -- without saying a word to anyone. I don't care how urgent the guy made it sound, no one -- particularly a woman -- is going to just run out in their night clothes. This, to me, for sheer implausibility, was right up there with Arabella and Jonathan never mentioning to each other the fact that neither of them had apparently written to the other while he was away.

 

This part, while inappropriate for the era, didn't really bother me because it's a safe guess that magic was involved. No one seemed to hear the knock but her, and that carriage she's in eventually left this world for the fairy world. I'm guessing she didn't hear a knock at the door so much as respond to a magical beckoning. In fact, I had thought she had been spirited away in her dreams until Strange woke up and I heard some kind of banging in the background that I assume was the window or door that she left open.

Edited July 13, 2015 by coppersin

[TexasGal]

I could find out nothing about this but surely, considering how it ends, Ms Clarke must be planning a sequel?

The book was published in 2004, and she's also published a series of short stories set in the same universe - but so far no sequel.  I check periodically to see if somehow I've missed it, but nope.  Makes me sad.

[miles2go]

How many books are in the series? Has season 1 followed book 1 so far?

 

 

From what I have read, this is the only book so far, but there is a sequel in the works.  I think there are some short stories also set in this alternate reality.

 I've only just started reading the novel, but, so far, the series is pretty close to what is written.

[tennisgurl]

 

How many books are in the series? Has season 1 followed book 1 so far?

Its been awhile since I read the book, and its a really long book, filled with tons of history and background stuff, but its sticking pretty close and hitting all the high notes. More importantly, I think its capturing the books feel, and the characters. 

 

If anyone is interested in reading more about this universe, without reading the book or before trying to read it, I would highly recommend The Ladies of Grace Adieu and other stories, which is a series of short stories set in this universe. One story has Jonathan and Arabella in supporting parts, and one stars The Duke of Wellington, but other than that its all different characters, with no spoilers. Its a good read, and adds a lot of interesting world building. 

[Oxy]

Nooo, got back into town today to find that a summer storm had cut off the cable, and the last bit of the show. Can someone please tell me what happened in the last 10-15 minutes? It cut off at faux Arabella's funeral.

 

 

As far as i can recall... Strange is back to working on his book and he goes to the engraver's to check on the illustrations.  As he's walking down the street he sees a shadow in the greenery and calls out "Childermass, is that you?"  Sure enough, the shadow turns into Childermass.  Strange says he's been expecting him and invites him to see what he has come for.  They go in and discuss the engravings, with Childermass remarking that they are beautiful.  Strange addresses him as "magician" and asks his opinion about the subject matter of the engravings, to which Childermass remarks that it must be faerie.  Strange offers Childermass a job as his pupil and assistant "with none of this servant nonsense" and Childermass thanks him and declines, saying he still has more to do with Norrell (and also that he would be a very bad pupil "even worse than you.") In the end, Childermass makes a bargain that if Norrell wins against Strange, then he will leave Norrell and join Strange, so that there will still be two magicians in England.  However, if Strange wins against Norrell, he will do the same against him.  Strange and Childermass shake on it.  On the way out, Childermass warns Strange that Norrell is going to try to destroy his book by any way possible.  Enraged, Strange bounds through a mirror (with Childermass remarking "bloody idiot" after he's gone) and lands in Norrell's study.  He has an altercation with Lascelles and ends up thrown into the street and arrested.  He's visited in jail by one of his soldier friends, tells the friend that he has come to the conclusion that he must make himself mad to summon a fairy and talks about ways to do it.  Before the friend can spring him from jail, Strange stands in a puddle in his leaky cell and vanishes.  The end!

 

I think that was the gist of it. 

Edited July 14, 2015 by Oxy

[sluggish neko]

The Christopher Walken Fairy has a really nasty habit of stealing people's wives. If Norrell had a wife (though he'd need a heart for that and I don't think Norrell has one-- isn't that stated in the prophecy?), she'd probably end up in his Lost Hope harem too. Poor Jonathan, so easily tricked and heartbroken. I kept hoping he'd realize that the dead Arabella was fake, especially when the spell he used to raise the dead soldiers failed. And the real Arabella, so easily brainwashed!

 

At least one woman can still fight. So glad Honeyfoot and Segudus are on the case. When the three gathered together to decipher her fairytales, I figured Lady Pole was speaking to the fairy world version of Stephen and that the other two couldn't see him. After all, last we saw Stephen at the asylum, he was firmly against it. Then later in the scene, the homeless prophet was able to grab Stephen. Maybe I was wrong?

 

The scene where Jonathan greets Childermass as an equal and a magician was wonderful. I was glad to see it after suffering through the awfulness of Lascelles repeatedly calling him a servant and Norrell, snob that he is, ignoring Childermass's counsel. You don't disrespect Childermass! Or rather, that's what I imagined Strange was yelling about when he stormed through the mirror into Norrell's study... Now, uh, back to work on my Team Childermass sign.

[beadgirl]

 

I could find out nothing about this but surely, considering how it ends, Ms Clarke must be planning a sequel?

Supposedly a few years ago (2009? 2011?) she said she was working on a sequel that would be from the viewpoint of the "lower classes" -- people like Childermass and Vinculus.  But there has been nothing more about it that I could find, and I suspect the show has taken up her attention.  Which is a shame; I want more of this world, especially of Childermass.

[WhiteStumbler]

I loved the visuals of the snow scenes.

I'm so mad. I watched the on-demand version on my local Comcast, and that scene was unwatchable - pixilated and broken up. Grrrr. I got the gist of it, but the impact was sadly reduced.

Loved the rest of the episode. It moved fast but they still took the time for telling details. I'll be sad when this is over.

[Rhetorica]

Someone posted Vinculus' prophesy somewhere. Can anyone remember where? I wanted to check what's come true to date. There was something about one of the magicians burying a loved one, I think.

[MajorMarket]

The prophecy text is in the discussion thread for Episode 2 if you want to read it in full.

[SimoneS]

Oh, Jonathan. At least, he has finally figured out the truth about Norrell. Finally, Lady Pole and Arabella will be saved. I am glad he remained faithful to Arabella and that Flora was merely passing through.

 

Poor Steven, but I am sure that the mad man with the Raven King's book will rise again in some way. 

[Rhetorica]

The prophecy text is in the discussion thread for Episode 2 if you want to read it in full.

Thanks! I'll try there.

Jonathan went badass! Looks like he's building a magical army of his own. I wonder if Flora is going to be part of it. A female magician may be wishful thinking, though. Loved the gentleman's voice inflection when he asked who Vinculus was. There were lots of humorous moments in the episode, I think to lighten some of the tension and darkness. Drawlight gets out of jail and ends up in a black magic tornado-Karma. Poor Vinculus, a hard life. Hopefully we will see him again somehow.

[cardigirl]

The acting in this is just top notch, I love watching all the actors work!

Wonder if this will be up for any if the awards shows ? Previously I was hoping Wolf Hall would win a lot of acting awards, but Bertie cavell, he's a force of nature!

[AimingforYoko]

It seems fairly obvious how Steven is going to fulfill his prophecy, doesn't it? I can't believe he hasn't figured it out.

[Lindsey]

Ah, Flora. Didn't anyone ever tell you Byron was "mad, bad, and dangerous to know?" There's even a t-shirt!

 

Jonathan going to Miss Havisham's crazier sister for advice on going insane is maybe my favorite thing that's happened so far.

[Jamoche]

Wonder if this will be up for any if the awards shows ? 

A Hugo nomination is pretty likely.

[attica]

Miss Havisham's crazier sister

 

Aww, but she was such a cute kitty! You know, finally.

 

Points to Marc Warren for playing the Fairy's pique at being successfully summoned by Strange. The only thing lacking was him looking impatiently at his wristwatch. Which he doesn't have. Which makes sense.

[theatremouse]

I wouldn't have trusted Drawlight to act as a go between, but I guess Jonathan didn't have a lot of options at that point.

I don't think he trusted Drawlight, not really. I think he trusted his own threats against Drawlight would be sufficient to keep Drawlight in line out of fear. Or at least, as you say, his best option given the circumstances and the threats probably sufficient.

[sjohnson]

Didn't anyone ever tell you Byron was "mad, bad, and dangerous to know?" There's even a t-shirt!

 

 

Said, if I remember correctly by Lady Caroline Lamb...who was apparently projecting. If there was ever anyone "mad, bad and dangerous to know," it was her. 

 

My opinion of course. 

I think Strange basically killed the old woman. I know a lot of people have no use for old women, but still, kind of off putting for me. 

[theatremouse]

I think Strange basically killed the old woman. I know a lot of people have no use for old women, but still, kind of off putting for me.

I don't think that's what happened. He promised to give her what her heart desired or something. I think he did an open-ended spell and when she turned into a cat, it's implied that happened because what she really wanted was to be a cat. (hence the living surrounded by cats and eating mice/rats). So when he told her he hoped she'd enjoy her new existence or whatever, he really meant it. I thought he had a kinda "hunh, so that's what she wanted, okedoke", mild suprise look on his face after she turned into the cat. The deal he struck with her was sort of the same deal with he was trying to strike with the Gentleman. He wasn't just stealing her madness and getting rid of her. She got what she wanted, I'm pretty sure. Edited July 19, 2015 by theatremouse

[SimoneS]

I agree that Jonathan did not kill the old woman. However, I am not convinced that giving an insane person their heart's desire is the way to go. Too bad he could not cure her madness.

[alias1]

I thought it was kind of touching that she got what she actually wanted.  Who are we to decide her madness should be cured in a normal way?  Although I did wonder how all the cats had enough food.  I hope there were enough mice in that crazy place. 

 

And how did Flora and her father not wonder what happened to the old lady?

[sjohnson]

The cat lives=the woman dies. The woman's gone. And I daresay no on could distinguish another tabby among all those cats. To me, she's dead.

 

If the woman's dementia included straightforwardly suicidal thoughts and the woman had simply died, would people still say Strange just gave her her heart's desire? I knew a person once who repeatedly denied suicidal thoughts, yet had four (yes four) single vehicle accidents, a misfire in the house with a rifle and a random impulse to wade across the river. There is a serious moral case to be made for not giving mentally disturbed people what they want.

Edited July 19, 2015 by sjohnson

[Lindsey]

Said, if I remember correctly by Lady Caroline Lamb...who was apparently projecting. If there was ever anyone "mad, bad and dangerous to know," it was her. 

 

I think they were pretty well matched on the emotionally unstable, selfish jerk front. Either way, Flora seems pretty awesome and definitely too good for Byron.

[not Bridget]

The cat lives=the woman dies. The woman's gone. And I daresay no on could distinguish another tabby among all those cats. To me, she's dead.

 

If the woman's dementia included straightforwardly suicidal thoughts and the woman had simply died, would people still say Strange just gave her her heart's desire? I knew a person once who repeatedly denied suicidal thoughts, yet had four (yes four) single vehicle accidents, a misfire in the house with a rifle and a random impulse to wade across the river. There is a serious moral case to be made for not giving mentally disturbed people what they want.

It's been years since I read the book, but I doubt anybody really cared about the old woman.  Had she married some down-at-the-heels Venetian nobleman, to the dismay of her respectable English family?  Finally, an abandoned widow in the moldering palace in Venice, a friend of her family took a few moments to look in on her.  Were her relatives notified so they could rescue her & take her into their care?  Or was she to continue slowly dying, in a stench of cat piss? 

 

She was better off as a cat.  I don't think the experiences of your acquaintance really compare. 

Edited July 19, 2015 by not Bridget

[attica]

There is a serious moral case to be made for not giving mentally disturbed people what they want.

 

Depends, imo, utterly on context. Would we consign a person to a lifetime of agony because we think dying is somehow worse? Euthanasia is seen the province of only the physically terminally ill, mostly. Isn't mental illness's cruelty sometimes as debilitating? But I don't want to go so far afield; this show is a fantasy, not a treatise. I'm happy to let a fictional character get to be a cat.

 

In fact, a reason this show is such an unexpected delight for me is its complete originality. Its use of tropes is handled with a light and humorous touch. It's certainly a plotline I've not seen anywhere else, ever. A unique universe within historical events and personages -- no small feat. 

[sluggish neko]

I liked how Vinculus (the human book) said how meaning was written on his skin like it is with Stephen and Stephen goes on to describe how the color of his skin defines his role in English society. The transition from magical prophecy and fate to actual racial prejudice was well done.

 

Bertie Carvel sells Strange's desperation and grief really well. Someone give him an award! When Strange found out that the Fairy can't (or won't) bring Arabella back, his plea to see her again was oh so sad. I really felt for him. I was so glad he found his way to Lost Hope and discovered the truth so quickly. Toward the end, Strange-- in his shadowy black tower, with his disheveled hair, and his flock of ravens-- seems like a strong candidate for Raven King.

 

Actually I'm a bit jealous of the batty cat lady. Sometimes I wish I can be a cat and I'm perfectly sane. More specifically, if I could choose between being a lonely, aging, ailing woman trapped in a decaying apartment or being an active, fuzzy cat that can run around Venice chasing rats and pigeons, I'd choose cat. I mean, I'd have whiskers! and a tail! And now I have to go hug a certain striped kitty staring at me...

[TexasGal]

It's been years since I read the book, but I doubt anybody really cared about the old woman.  Had she married some down-at-the-heels Venetian nobleman, to the dismay of her respectable English family?  Finally, an abandoned widow in the moldering palace in Venice, a friend of her family took a few moments to look in on her.  Were her relatives notified so they could rescue her & take her into their care?  Or was she to continue slowly dying, in a stench of cat piss? 

 

She was better off as a cat.  I don't think the experiences of your acquaintance really compare.

I don't want to break any rules here - is all book discussion forbidden here? I'll post a response in the book thread, but yes basically you're right.

[TexasGal]

There has been some discussion in the Ep 6 thread about Mrs. Delgado, I wasn't sure if I could post this there so putting it here to be safe. In the book, she's described as a woman with a gift for languages, who traveled with her husband around the world and learned all kinds of languages. After her husband died, she was taken into a Jewish ghetto where they grudgingly took care of her but no one wanted to socialize with her. She started living with the cats and learned their language too. Since no one came to talk to her, she forgot all the other languages and could only speak cat. So, to me, it was clearly a good thing that Strange turned her into a cat when he took her madness.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

In most cases, anything about the books should be spoiler tagged (some shows like Game of Thrones and Outlander have stricter policies).

[Rhetorica]

I'm next in line for the ebook from our library. I am enjoying this show so much that I'm worried the book will be a let down. This might be a first where film was better than manuscript. What do you think?

[not Bridget]

.....Bertie Carvel sells Strange's desperation and grief really well. Someone give him an award! When Strange found out that the Fairy can't (or won't) bring Arabella back, his plea to see her again was oh so sad. I really felt for him. I was so glad he found his way to Lost Hope and discovered the truth so quickly. Toward the end, Strange-- in his shadowy black tower, with his disheveled hair, and his flock of ravens-- seems like a strong candidate for Raven King.

 

Actually I'm a bit jealous of the batty cat lady. Sometimes I wish I can be a cat and I'm perfectly sane. More specifically, if I could choose between being a lonely, aging, ailing woman trapped in a decaying apartment or being an active, fuzzy cat that can run around Venice chasing rats and pigeons, I'd choose cat. I mean, I'd have whiskers! and a tail! And now I have to go hug a certain striped kitty staring at me...

 

Concerning the Fairy's failure/refusal to return Arabella: I think that Strange was asking the wrong question.  He requested his wife be brought back from the dead--but she wasn't dead.  Of course, it seemed pretty obvious that she had died; Fake Arabella acted delirious & then she croaked.  (Those Fake People probably have limited lifespans, anyway; if she'd lived, Strange's investigation into her weird condition might have revealed the truth.)  From other tales about dealing with the Good Folk, one learns to be very specific.  When you've been granted a wish, you need to select your words with care or unforeseen results will occur. But clues led Jonathan to the truth...

 

(And, yes. The abandoned, pathetic old lady was better off as a cat.) 

[Jamoche]

Concerning the Fairy's failure/refusal to return Arabella: I think that Strange was asking the wrong question.  He requested his wife be brought back from the dead--but she wasn't dead.

And he asked for his wife, not Arabella specifically - and of course he'd been tricked into forsaking the real Arabella and declaring the fake one to be his only true wife. So by the fairy's twisted logic he wasn't even lying.

[Holmbo]

The book has much slower pace than the show and is written a bit strangely with lots of footnotes. But the story itself is quiet similar. I don't know of anyone who's read the book after watching the show. You should post your experience of it here.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Holmbo

[Haleth]

He asked that his wife be brought back from the dead, which the faerie said could not be done... because she wasn't dead.

[applecrisp]

I was really surprised that Vinculus died.  I did not think the Gent could kill him.  And poor Stephen.  All the lost dreams.

 

I really love this series, it is way too short.  I want more. Could they go back and add some new stuff and continue this?  When I watch this I find I have to pay very close attention to it and I find myself rewinding a lot as well.  It is so interesting and detailed.

[coppersin]

Poor Strange. His heartbreak at accepting the "truth" was, well, heartbreaking. I'm not sure if the Raven King will be good or bad, but either way I want him to show up NOW and dole out some punishment to The Gentleman and Norrell, because they've both hurt Strange so badly.

 

Not nearly enough Childermass, but he still managed to get more done than Norrell, per usual. If Strange is right and England is full of magicians, then there's our spinoff (with female magicians included this time!) and I want Childermass in the lead.

 

I'm not sure what to think of our human book. Part of me still expects him to be resurrected, because the magic that tattooed his skin is part of him; however, maybe he's no longer needed now that the prophecy is unfolding, so his protection has expired?

 

Speaking of The Gentleman, I don't care for him or Drawlight, but they had two of the best lines solely because of the actors' delivery:

Drawlight: "Oh, good."

Gentleman: "Who is that?"

 

This show is just. so. delightful. And it keeps getting better. I'm so, so glad that I've managed to not read the book yet; it's difficult for me to keep my impatience in check, but it has been totally worth it for the suspense of being unspoiled each week. Not sure how they're going to cram everything into one more episode, but next week is the wrap-up, correct? This is a miniseries and not an ongoing show?

[TexasGal]

Rhetorica - the book is quite long and as Holmbo says it has a lot of footnotes.  I think it just depends on what you enjoy reading.  The whole book is written as it were non-fiction, with the footnotes referencing books of magic or describing events that occurred in the past.  Some of the footnotes are really long, they extend across pages.  I loved that, it felt like such a complete universe.  But, I'm sure it was a turn off to other people.

[Rhetorica]

Thanks Holmbo and TexasGal. I'll post after reading. I love Terry Pratchett's footnotes. RIP, Sir Terry.

[Rhetorica]

I so hope BBC makes some sort of deal with the author for more seasons. This storyline could go on for years! I want more!

[cardigirl]

From Wikipedia, so take it for what it's worth:

In 2004, Clarke announced that she was working on a book that begins a few years after Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell ends. It is intended to centre on characters such as Childermass and Vinculus who, as Clarke says, are "a bit lower down the social scale"

 

As it took Clarke 10 years to write Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell, she may be closing in on finishing this.  One can hope!

Edited July 20, 2015 by cardigirl

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Promo:

[LiveenLetLive]

The thought of the finale makes me sad (even though I have already watched) it makes me sadder that we are left hanging, I hope that the author might consider writing at least an outline for the rest of the story if she would rather not spend another 7 years writing a second novel. Surely she must have some idea of how it really ends? 

[Rhetorica]

Renewed? Yes! If she writes another book :(

http://seriable.com/jonathan-strange-mr-norrell-season-2-possible-confirms-writer/