Kim Wexler: She Has a Two-Year Plan

[Tatum]

On 5/4/2022 at 9:38 AM, Bannon said:

Howard's objectively become a much better person over the course of the show. Instead of being the insecure, thin skinned, irresponsible, entitled, layabout he was early in the show, he's now willing to admit to error, and be accountable for what is ethically and professionally  demanded from someone in his position of power and financial reward. That's terrific writing, because it lies in contrast to Kim's ethical descent, and now being on the precipice of further decline via this plot against Howard. Will she go through with it? Will she turn away, especially now that Cliff haa offered an entirely ethical path to obtain that which she claims is most important to her? Damned if I know, but that's part of what makes it a great story!

Obviously this was written a few weeks back, and we now know what Kim chose to do, and this is the first episode I have ever not liked her. I didn't mind her when she was pulling her small time Giselle cons on people, and I didn't mind when she was committing mail fraud, and I had no problem with her general philosophy of the ends justifying the means as she saw fit. She was a complex character and one of my favorites. However, in the mid season finale she was really brushing up against the kind of character I hate, the one who always gets the upper hand and seems to feel little, if any, remorse or personal responsibility for anything they do. Her smug eye rolling over Howard's rant was very reminiscent of something Wendy Byrd from Ozarks would do, and I absolutely despise Wendy's character. Like, he lost, she won, why's he wasting her time and boring her with his complaints? I don't believe she's a horrible person, but her need to see Howard destroyed just doesn't jive with her earlier character. This is obviously deeply personal to her and I just can't see how he made such an impression on her, especially as he has attempted to reconcile professionally and personally with her and Jimmy. And even if those attempts were misguided, there was no malice there.

[gallimaufry]

Cinnabon in the Kim spin-off thread commented about misogynistic takes on Kim's sexuality which got me thinking.  I've no desire to overturn rocks to see what misogynistic views people have.  That said, I think the treatment of Kim's sexuality as relates to crime is quite distinct from Jimmy's.

It's very clear that Kim is turned on by their criminal enterprises specifically whereas for Jimmy there's no particular link -- if anything, as in 102 (the breadsticks after Tuco), 507? (he stops to confess about Lalo) and the "Something Stupid" montage where he'd hiding his ugly side from Kim and only grows more distance, it's kind of the opposite.  Under normal circumstances, his dark side dampens his ability to connect with Kim either through trauma or worry about lying or because of his own shame.  Whereas time and time again, the times that Kim is the most sexually forward are after their biggest successes: 201 after conning Ken, 206 when she thaws the relationship by initiating a con on the bar cheat, 408 after the Huell scam etc.  Jimmy always looks for closeness, connection and approval from Kim in almost every scene but I can't think I've ever seen him initiate something as a result of a scam.

Now there's nothing intrinsically wrong with using this as a plot point and it's certainly handled far, far better than it was when the same connection happened with Walter White as Jimmy, unlike Skylar, clearly consents.  My interpretation is that with Walt it's a confirmation of his potency in a life where he otherwise feels impotent which -- apart from being about as subtle as a rock on a metaphorical level -- also painted Skylar's character into a corner where any expression of her agency was a challenge to the position of the lead character, an impossible position when the "Mr Chips to Scarface" arc was laid out from the start.  Hence, Skylar is constantly curbing Walt's expressions of virility: rejecting the cars, disguising his role as provider by crediting others, etc.  And Walt is constantly rapacious towards Skylar, whether literally as in 201, or breaking into their house in 302 and into their bed in 501, because in a world where he can't confess to becoming a meth kingpin, the biggest expressions of potency he can muster are to coerce his wife. 

I don't think it's about potency in this sense with Kim -- certainly, you could never look at her and say she's powerless.  It's difficult to tell how much she considers herself a victim.  It partly depends on her interpretation of her relationship with her mother which, her earrings suggest, is at the very least quite complicated.  Also, she has certainly praised individualism in public (praising how Jimmy "bootstrapped" his way into law in 305 and telling Acker to "put on your big boy pants" in 503).  Her whole "I save me" and "I make my own choices" refrain plays into this self-image.  But whether, deep down, she does in fact feel victimised is harder to say -- certainly she sees that there are victims as, after giving the "big boy pants" lecture (which, remember, was for Paige's benefit as much as anyone), she goes back and empathises with Acker.  All her pro bono cases are about helping the downtrodden and while she tough-loves them, she takes their own ability to change themselves seriously -- gaslighting her clients in 501 really hurts her.  Still, I think she sees herself as the Atticus Finch figure rather than a victim in her own right.

However, it's clear that however much or little she has processed it, Kim feels vulnerable and has had to deal with extreme instability in her life.  Indeed, we saw a taste of it post-childhood with the cornfields incident in S2 which in some ways was a corporate replica of the fickle love her mother showed.  I think probably this proved to her that having her fate in someone else's hands as in a traditional corporate structure -- whether Howard or Rich (another "Howard" as her Freudian slip suggests) or even Jimmy -- opens herself up to intolerable compromise.  She could only approach S&C when she would be a partner with discretion over her actions and when Rich tried to pull her collar, she exploded in public.  

On the other hand, she couldn't have been clearer to Jimmy that she did not want him to be a bagman in 508 but there was no judgment or recrimination as a result of the choice that he made -- or even on the "Friend of the Cartel"/"rat" dilemma which clearly could have a huge effect on Kim but where she absolved herself of the choice.  Because these chaotic decisions are not her decisions and are independent of her and she's aware of them so she can (she thinks) mitigate their effects. 

In this context, when so much of her time is tight-ponytail control, the moments when she's won a major victory with Jimmy to me represent not just triumph but release -- the world has become ordered and safe and in line with her expectations, allowing her to unbottle all the emotions that years of experience have taught her to suppress.  Love can only be expressed on her terms and when nobody can kick the chair from under her - even the marriage proposal follows a similar logic.

Jimmy on the other hand doesn't need this outlet.  He just acts out whenever he's aggrieved - bowling balls, the liability insurance, breaking into Chuck's.  He's just as deviant, just in a different way.

[qtpye]

8 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

Cinnabon in the Kim spin-off thread commented about misogynistic takes on Kim's sexuality which got me thinking.  I've no desire to overturn rocks to see what misogynistic views people have.  That said, I think the treatment of Kim's sexuality as relates to crime is quite distinct from Jimmy's.

It's very clear that Kim is turned on by their criminal enterprises specifically whereas for Jimmy there's no particular link -- if anything, as in 102 (the breadsticks after Tuco), 507? (he stops to confess about Lalo) and the "Something Stupid" montage where he'd hiding his ugly side from Kim and only grows more distance, it's kind of the opposite.  Under normal circumstances, his dark side dampens his ability to connect with Kim either through trauma or worry about lying or because of his own shame.  Whereas time and time again, the times that Kim is the most sexually forward are after their biggest successes: 201 after conning Ken, 206 when she thaws the relationship by initiating a con on the bar cheat, 408 after the Huell scam etc.  Jimmy always looks for closeness, connection and approval from Kim in almost every scene but I can't think I've ever seen him initiate something as a result of a scam.

Now there's nothing intrinsically wrong with using this as a plot point and it's certainly handled far, far better than it was when the same connection happened with Walter White as Jimmy, unlike Skylar, clearly consents.  My interpretation is that with Walt it's a confirmation of his potency in a life where he otherwise feels impotent which -- apart from being about as subtle as a rock on a metaphorical level -- also painted Skylar's character into a corner where any expression of her agency was a challenge to the position of the lead character, an impossible position when the "Mr Chips to Scarface" arc was laid out from the start.  Hence, Skylar is constantly curbing Walt's expressions of virility: rejecting the cars, disguising his role as provider by crediting others, etc.  And Walt is constantly rapacious towards Skylar, whether literally as in 201, or breaking into their house in 302 and into their bed in 501, because in a world where he can't confess to becoming a meth kingpin, the biggest expressions of potency he can muster are to coerce his wife. 

I don't think it's about potency in this sense with Kim -- certainly, you could never look at her and say she's powerless.  It's difficult to tell how much she considers herself a victim.  It partly depends on her interpretation of her relationship with her mother which, her earrings suggest, is at the very least quite complicated.  Also, she has certainly praised individualism in public (praising how Jimmy "bootstrapped" his way into law in 305 and telling Acker to "put on your big boy pants" in 503).  Her whole "I save me" and "I make my own choices" refrain plays into this self-image.  But whether, deep down, she does in fact feel victimised is harder to say -- certainly she sees that there are victims as, after giving the "big boy pants" lecture (which, remember, was for Paige's benefit as much as anyone), she goes back and empathises with Acker.  All her pro bono cases are about helping the downtrodden and while she tough-loves them, she takes their own ability to change themselves seriously -- gaslighting her clients in 501 really hurts her.  Still, I think she sees herself as the Atticus Finch figure rather than a victim in her own right.

However, it's clear that however much or little she has processed it, Kim feels vulnerable and has had to deal with extreme instability in her life.  Indeed, we saw a taste of it post-childhood with the cornfields incident in S2 which in some ways was a corporate replica of the fickle love her mother showed.  I think probably this proved to her that having her fate in someone else's hands as in a traditional corporate structure -- whether Howard or Rich (another "Howard" as her Freudian slip suggests) or even Jimmy -- opens herself up to intolerable compromise.  She could only approach S&C when she would be a partner with discretion over her actions and when Rich tried to pull her collar, she exploded in public.  

On the other hand, she couldn't have been clearer to Jimmy that she did not want him to be a bagman in 508 but there was no judgment or recrimination as a result of the choice that he made -- or even on the "Friend of the Cartel"/"rat" dilemma which clearly could have a huge effect on Kim but where she absolved herself of the choice.  Because these chaotic decisions are not her decisions and are independent of her and she's aware of them so she can (she thinks) mitigate their effects. 

In this context, when so much of her time is tight-ponytail control, the moments when she's won a major victory with Jimmy to me represent not just triumph but release -- the world has become ordered and safe and in line with her expectations, allowing her to unbottle all the emotions that years of experience have taught her to suppress.  Love can only be expressed on her terms and when nobody can kick the chair from under her - even the marriage proposal follows a similar logic.

Jimmy on the other hand doesn't need this outlet.  He just acts out whenever he's aggrieved - bowling balls, the liability insurance, breaking into Chuck's.  He's just as deviant, just in a different way.

For me, the WTF moment was when she asked Jimmy to marry her after he betrayed her by going ahead with the scene against Mesa Verde.

I relate a lot to Kim and her career path. I just could not fathom what would want to make her marry this man. Yes, it was a hilarious episode but Jimmy’s actions could have gone south really quickly.

[gallimaufry]

2 minutes ago, qtpye said:

For me, the WTF moment was when she asked Jimmy to marry her after he betrayed her by going ahead with the scene against Mesa Verde.

I relate a lot to Kim and her career path. I just could not fathom what would want to make her marry this man. Yes, it was a hilarious episode but Jimmy’s actions could have gone south really quickly.

That's true but the plan was entirely Kim's so I guess that side of things probably mattered less to her.

To me, the marriage proposal is an example of one of the character twists that does work because I can see the logic.  Jimmy has betrayed her but she knows that really he's right - she got everything she wanted but that she was too afraid to take.  She was just excluded from the decision process at the end.  So instead of dealing with the toxicity, which means losing the only stable relationship she has ever had as far as we can tell, she lawyers down and makes a legal commitment so now she doesn't ever have to be blindsided again.  Of course, it's a strange logic but I find that more plausible than the jump in 510 (although having two such massive character jumps in one season -- and another in 408 with her "Let's do it again" -- makes me think they've been pushing the accelerator a bit too hard).

[JudyObscure]

There were good logical reasons for Kim and Jimmy to marry, but I'll always believe that each one secretly wanted to secure the person they love. 

Conventional wisdom used to tell us that men marry their mothers and women marry their fathers, but the latest thought on the subject is that  both  look for someone like their mothers-- our first, most important source of love. 

For Kim, Jimmy represents  the scattered, adventurous woman who admired con games, and whose attention was hard to pin down.  For Jimmy, Kim is the mother who always liked him best, laughed at his jokes, and found all his shenanigans loveable. 

[PeterPirate]

3 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

More misogyny from BCS watchers - I’ve seen a number of people comment (not here) about how depraved and perverse Kim is because she was turned on by the success of their scam. Maybe, but no one said the same about Jimmy, and he was also into the sex. It’s just so predictable and so disheartening at the same time. 

There's nothing depraved or perverse about Kim being turned on by power.  As Henry Kissinger put it, Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac.  I remember reading one humorous story about a couple of Packers fans that were looking for a recording of a particular win by their team.  They had a child who had been born nine months later, and they wanted a memento of the event.  

13 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I relate a lot to Kim and her career path. I just could not fathom what would want to make her marry this man. Yes, it was a hilarious episode but Jimmy’s actions could have gone south really quickly.

That right there, I think, is the root problem people have with understanding Kim.  They identify with her, and since they are good people they assume Kim is too.  I just don't have such illusions.  Kim isn't bad.  She just broke bad.   

I've been reviewing my posts about Kim during Season 5 and they are pretty consistent with what I've been posting this season.  Kim was the only reason for me to watch this show in the first place, and I had to put myself through the Five Stages of Grief when I realized that Kim had broken bad way back in Season 2 in the Squat Cobbler affair. 

[qtpye]

17 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

There's nothing depraved or perverse about Kim being turned on by power.  As Henry Kissinger put it, Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac.  I remember reading one humorous story about a couple of Packers fans that were looking for a recording of a particular win by their team.  They had a child who had been born nine months later, and they wanted a memento of the event.  

That right there, I think, is the root problem people have with understanding Kim.  They identify with her, and since they are good people they assume Kim is too.  I just don't have such illusions.  Kim isn't bad.  She just broke bad.   

I've been reviewing my posts about Kim during Season 5 and they are pretty consistent with what I've been posting this season.  Kim was the only reason for me to watch this show in the first place, and I had to put myself through the Five Stages of Grief when I realized that Kim had broken bad way back in Season 2 in the Squat Cobbler affair. 

I think in this show and BB there is a moment where you realize that someone you assumed was “good” is actually very warped.

In BB it was when Walt refused the job from Elliot to cook meth because of his pride.

On this show, it was when Kim took a u-turn away from everything she needed “to help the underserved”.

They had options but chose the bad road.

[nodorothyparker]

12 minutes ago, qtpye said:

For me, the WTF moment was when she asked Jimmy to marry her after he betrayed her by going ahead with the scene against Mesa Verde.

I relate a lot to Kim and her career path. I just could not fathom what would want to make her marry this man. Yes, it was a hilarious episode but Jimmy’s actions could have gone south really quickly.

That was initially a head scratcher for me too. At the time, I chalked it up to smart women, foolish choices.

I relate a lot to Kim too in coming from something of a ne'er do well background and fighting upstream to make good to only then realize that what you thought was success doesn't make you happy. It wasn't what you thought it was at all and makes you so damn miserable that before you're even fully conscious of it, you're self-sabotaging and wanting to burn it all down. The targets of your ire don't even have to be entirely rational, just representative of what you put all that time and effort into becoming before finding out the view isn't better from there. 

Kim's stated reason for marrying Jimmy was so she couldn't be forced to testify against him. I believed her at the time that insulating herself from his shenanigans was a real consideration for a woman who'd once been banished to doc review for a commercial Jimmy made without her knowledge or input. I mean, she was smart enough to not share a law practice with him even as they shared an office because she already had a pretty good idea what kind of lawyer he could be. And she knew the stakes were much higher now as Jimmy continued his descent. I also think Kim is a classic case of still waters run deep. She's not an outwardly emotional or demonstrative person even as her going to visit Lalo in prison during the bagman escapade was about as emotional about Jimmy as we've ever seen her. That was when I really grasped that she might love Jimmy as much as he clearly loves her, because up until that point I was never fully certain if it was really love or just attraction. We know Jimmy and the thrill of the con that he brings really stirs something in her.

[Bannon]

There's a huge difference between sexual arousal that is generally triggered by a triumph, and sexual arousal that is specifically triggered by a triumph in an effort to harm people. Just was made partner after years of hard work, and really want to have sex? That's really positive. Just managed to f*ck over your former A-hole of a former boss, by means of an extended scheme in which you lied to people about him assaulting women, and covertly drugged him? Being aroused by such cruelty is very, very, ugly.

[JudyObscure]

5 hours ago, Bannon said:

Being aroused by such cruelty is very, very, ugly.

Yes, in spite of all the violence I've sat through on this show, I found that  schadenfreude sex to be one the most disturbing scenes.  I had fully expected the camera to come back to them with, "oh my god what have we done," chagrin on their faces.  But no.

[Cinnabon]

6 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Yes, in spite of all the violence I've sat through on this show, I found that  schadenfreude sex to be one the most disturbing scenes.  I had fully expected the camera to come back to them with, "oh my god what have we done," chagrin on their faces.  But no.

This I get. The part of it I find to be misogynist is that people were judging Kim based on that scene, and not Jimmy. 

[nodorothyparker]

I don't agree with it but I do sort of get it. Kim is the one we've seen a couple of times now as being clearly aroused by their successfully pulling a con off. Each time she's been shown as the more sexually aggressive of the two of them. People will read what they will into that.

[Bannon]

18 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I don't agree with it but I do sort of get it. Kim is the one we've seen a couple of times now as being clearly aroused by their successfully pulling a con off. Each time she's been shown as the more sexually aggressive of the two of them. People will read what they will into that.

Of all their cons, deceiving people into thinking that a person assaulted women, and then covertly drugging that person, really struck me as particularly vile, so their reaction to that vile act, that it was a great time for schtupping, for me, doubled down on the gross.

[scenario]

I was thinking about Kim's motivation.

Kim's history is kind of vague but we do know that HHM paid for her to get her law degree. I doubt that she went full time so I'd expect it would have taken her 4 or 5 years part time to get it.

So the timeline. Kim gets a job as a clerk or something at HHM. She works hard and impresses Howard enough that he's willing to pay for her to go to law school. ~2 years.

Kim goes to law school part time while working full time. 4 years.

Kim is a respected but junior lawyer when we first meet her but she doesn't seem like someone fresh out of law school. ~2 years. 

So IMO, Kim's been working for HHM for 8 years or more by the time we meet her. She knew Chuck when he was at his peak. She may have even known Howard's father. She respects Chuck and considers him the real boss of the company.

She considers Howard a light weight whose gotten where he is based on his name. He's a competent attorney but nothing more. He would have never made partner if he'd had to earn it. He's coasting through life.

Howard seems like a grown up more mature frat boy to me. She probably heard rumors from the other people there about Howards wild college days. 

Chuck get's sick and Howard does little to help him or the firm. He just lets him live in a house as some sort of hermit. He hides the fact that his business partner is seriously mentally ill from everyone. He's putting both Chucks well being and the well being of the firm at risk because he's too indecisive to actually make a decision and do what needs to be done.

Kim respects Howard's position. She doesn't respect him. Then Jimmy creates a very effective and ethical ad but doesn't follow the proper procedure to get it aired. The ad is very effective but she's punished for it because of her connection with Jimmy. Then though hard work she gets a contract worth millions of dollars for HHM and is spit on for it.

Every time people around Howard do something to make the firm a boatload of money, Howard punishes them for it. She is being punished for excelling. In the meantime, Jimmy and Kim were getting closer and closer. Both of them had a grifters streak in them. Both of them loved the scam. But both of them had decided to leave that part of them behind and do things the right way. 

Jimmy tries to go straight and his own brother does everything in his power to cut his feet out from under him. 

Both Jimmy and Kim are punished for trying to go straight and do the right thing. Eventually they decide that fighting against the tide just isn't worth it anymore so they turned to the dark side. Howard is as much a symbol of the corrupt system than he is a person to Kim. By attacking Howard, she's attacking the system designed to hold down hard working people who deserve to succeed. 

[PeterPirate]

I decided to coalesce my thoughts about Kim into one long, pedantic diatribe.   

First, here is part of my post on the last page of the thread for Episode 5-10:  

On 4/25/2020 at 10:45 AM, PeterPirate said:

Kim has severe moral conflicts, but they are internal to her.  And they are driving her nuts.

Second, here is a re-post of a video from the previous page of this thread: 

One thing that video leaves out is Kim's desire to be like Atticus Finch.  I surmise this came from Kim's father, who was a pretty decent person who liked to watch movies with his daughter.  One way or another Kim ended up living with her scamming, slipping mother, but she retained the desire to do good things like Finch.   

Going all the way back to season 2, Kim was willing to overlook Jimmy's unethical behavior, just as long as she didn't have to know about it herself.  This dynamic intensified in season 3 when she found out she got Mesa Verde as a client because of Jimmy's criminal behavior.  

The more Kim associates with Jimmy, the more uncomfortable she feels about the dichotomy between how she sees herself and how her reality is actually unfolding.  In response, she engages in "good" behavior so she doesn't have to deal with the disparity.  When Acker sarcastically refers to her as "one of the best people", she gets Jimmy to jump in and save Acker's residence.  And, of course, she starts doing pro bono work for the legally underrepresented (which, as far as we know, she never did before she started up with Jimmy).  

So what explains Kim's fixation on bringing down Howard?  Well, consider what happened in Episodes 8 and 9 of the last season.  Her man agreed to lug $7 of Mexican drug cartel money across the desert to help a murder suspect get out of jail.  When her man went missing she went and spoke to said murder suspect.  And when the suspect later appeared at her residence and accused her man of lying, she told him he was guilty.     

Kim is now in the game.  She put herself in the game.  And she is now an accessory-after-the-fact to a murder.  But she still has to see herself as a good person, and she cannot admit to herself that she is helping to perpetuate evil deeds.  So she spends her time concocting and executing a complex scheme to bring down an "evil person" in order to get money to fund her "good work".  

I cannot of course insist that I am correct in my assessment of Kim.  But I submit that "reaction formation" puts all of the jigsaw pieces of her behaviors into a single, coherent picture.  

ETA:  This is not to say that Kim did not half legitimate grievances against Howard, as laid out in the post preceding this one.  Kim was dead-on accurate about how Chuck's actions helped make Jimmy the way he was.  However, those are just pieces of the puzzle, and relatively minor ones in my opinion.

Edited June 17, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Lalo Lives]

PeterPirate, this could be the case...

Sort of like the ol' carbon credits thing.

I have a private jet but I'll compost my coffee grounds and eggshells to offset it.

People do weird stuff out of nowhere.

I hope we get some sort of explanation because her pro bono lunge was as unexpected as her marriage proposal.

[PeterPirate]

Another video about Kim's "reaction formation".  

Substantively, there is nothing really new.  However, he ties in many of the events of season 6 into his theory.  I'm telling y'all, it all fits together.  

And it reminded me of the following teaser. 

Edited July 2, 2022 by PeterPirate

[SunnyBeBe]

Can someone tell me if Kim had left Jimmy at the time when Jimmy (Saul) was helping Walt buy the car wash?  

[qtpye]

3 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Can someone tell me if Kim had left Jimmy at the time when Jimmy (Saul) was helping Walt buy the car wash?  

I think Kim was long gone (at least a year) before Jimmy became the assclown of a lawyer that we originally meet in Breaking Bad.

[SimplexFish]

35 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Can someone tell me if Kim had left Jimmy at the time when Jimmy (Saul) was helping Walt buy the car wash?  

She left way before that...

[SunnyBeBe]

There’s a link with a time line around here somewhere…..I’ll try to find it.

[PeterPirate]

Another good analysis of Kim Wexler.  Nothing really new, but it puts all the pieces together well.  

I do like the part about how Kim and Jimmy are each other's missing piece.

Edited August 8, 2022 by PeterPirate

[peeayebee]

I watched this with CC on, which helped a lot. I have such a problem listening to monotone narration.

This was a pretty interesting analysis. Thanks for posting. One observation I liked was that J & K have both, all their lives, been trying to suppress the desire to get on the bad choice road. J's method was to try to win the favor of his family. K's method was to leave her mother, her family, and she emotionally cuts herself off from people and envelops herself in her work. (I notice that Kim left Nebraska to get away from a bad influence, and she does the same thing with Albuequerque. [Will I ever learn spell that city?])

[PeterPirate]

[Simon Boccanegra]

I was looking at something I wrote to a friend during season 5. The relevant portion:   

"In the first episode of Better Call Saul, Jimmy is furious to see his prospective high-profile embezzlement clients, the Kettlemans, meeting with Howard. He takes out his anger on an HHM waste can, overturning it and kicking it, and then joins Kim outside; she's smoking. He wordlessly "borrows" her cigarette, establishing intimacy. They exchange only a few words; he asks "Couldn't you just...?" and she interrupts, "You know I can't." Then she goes back inside, and we see in the long shot that she's cleaning up after Jimmy. She rights the waste can and puts the bag back in it.

"That was fine character setup. In 5-4, she's the one who wants to sweep up the glass from the mess they made in the parking lot the night before. Jimmy's counsel is just not to worry about it; the building will take care of it. That's what you pay rent for, he says. I wonder if this is all a clue to how things will turn out. The biggest difference between Kim and Jimmy is that when she has an ethical lapse, she wants to "straighten up." Sometimes it isn't even her own lapse; it might be Jimmy's. Jimmy sometimes wants to "straighten up" (as when his scheming for a quicker settlement turned that old woman's friends against her), but not as reliably, and less and less often." 

Well, I may have been on to something. Mixed results.  

Edited August 12, 2022 by Simon Boccanegra

[Spartan Girl]

As hard as I try, I can’t even give Kim a fraction of the sympathy I had for Skyler.

And it’s not just because Skyler was more or less manipulated into going along into breaking bad with Walt, whereas Kim went full-on Lady Macbeth of her own free will. It’s because Kim ran away and Skyler didn’t. When she had the opportunity to take Holly and run, she couldn’t bring herself to do it. She knew she was in too deep: if Walt got caught, so would she. She was fully aware of her own culpability and the consequences of her actions. And Walt had her so screwed that there wasn’t much she could do except focus all her energy into protecting her children.

Kim and Jimmy didn’t have any kids (thank God). But she still ran off to Florida and waited six years to come forward. She claimed she wanted to make amends, but really, it was to clean her own conscience. Her confession wasn’t going to give restore Howard’s reputation and give him a decent burial. It sure as hell wasn’t going to give Cheryl peace. For all of Kim’s apparent willingness to accept consequences, deep down, she’s still fully aware that the legal repercussions she’ll get will be minimal at best, since her affidavit is basically just heresay. There’s no physical proof and everyone else involved is dead or missing. 

Her remorse may be genuine. But so what?

[qtpye]

8 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Kim ran away and Skyler didn’t. When she had the opportunity to take Holly and run, she couldn’t bring herself to do it. She knew she was in too deep: if Walt got caught, so would she. She was fully aware of her own culpability and the consequences of her actions. And Walt had her so screwed that there wasn’t much she could do except focus all her energy into protecting her children.

Kim and Jimmy didn’t have any kids (thank God). But she still ran off to Florida and waited six years to come forward. She claimed she wanted to make amends, but really, it was to clean her own conscience. Her confession wasn’t going to give restore Howard’s reputation and give him a decent burial. It sure as hell wasn’t going to give Cheryl peace. For all of Kim’s apparent willingness to accept consequences, deep down, she’s still fully aware that the legal repercussions she’ll get will be minimal at best, since her affidavit is basically just heresay. There’s no physical proof and everyone else involved is dead or missing. 

Her remorse may be genuine. But so what?

Again, I would like her to clarify the stance that her relationship with Jimmy would be destroyed if they did not do the scam against Howard?

Why did she think they had nothing else holding them together? They had known each other for a long time by this point and had been through so much.

[Spartan Girl]

3 hours ago, qtpye said:

Again, I would like her to clarify the stance that her relationship with Jimmy would be destroyed if they did not do the scam against Howard?

Why did she think they had nothing else holding them together? They had known each other for a long time by this point and had been through so much.

I got the feeling Kim was afraid she would wind up resenting Jimmy if he had pulled the plug on the scam to protect themselves from Lalo. She admitted that she wanted to get Howard more than everything; she was the one that insisted on sticking to the plan no matter what. Which says more about her than anything.

So again, her remorse was too little and too late. She wouldn’t be this sorry if Howard hadn’t gotten killed.

[Constantinople]

I'm not convinced Kim ever really enjoyed being a lawyer, except perhaps for fleeting moments.

I'm still not sure why Kim became a lawyer. She wanted "more" than life in Nebraska offered and eventually ended up working in HHM's mailroom. Perhaps she became a lawyer through a combination of ambition, osmosis and HHM's willingness to pay for her law degree.

Kim was successful because she was smart and hardworking -- and because Jimmy sabotaged HHM's chances of keeping Mesa Verde as a client -- but she quit or passed up on every opportunity she had.

After going to law school and then working at HHM for a number of years, I would have thought she would have had some idea in what field of law she wanted to practice. I can understand why she left HHM given her relationship with Howard, but then she transitions to banking law, first as a solo practitioner and then as a partner at Schweikart & Cokely.

Kim then decides banking law isn't for her, so she quits Schweikart & Cokely, resigns as Mesa Verde's lawyer, and then decides to be a criminal defense attorney for those underserved by the legal community. Kim has one case that satisfies her, but otherwise I don't recall her expressing that much enthusiasm for the work. With Cliff's help, she gets an appointment with the Jackson Mercer Foundation. That would help finance her practice, but she blows that off so she and Jimmy can keep the scam going against Howard.

There may be a number of reasons for that, but one reason appears to be that she enjoys scamming people more than her legal work. Jimmy in contrast sees his legal work as another type of scam, so he sees the mundane details of legal work as laying the groundwork for a scam.

Kim doesn't particularly seem to enjoy her work at the sprinkler company either, so I'm not sure why in Waterworks, Kim looked so wistfully at the pony tailed defense attorney in the courthouse building helping her client put on a tie. 

Does Kim regret no longer working as a lawyer? Or does she regret that she gave up a higher paying, more prestigious career, even if it wasn't one she particularly enjoyed?

[Irlandesa]

34 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Kim was successful because she was smart and hardworking -- and because Jimmy sabotaged HHM's chances of keeping Mesa Verde as a client -- but she quit or passed up on every opportunity she had.

I think she wanted to be a lawyer.  She thought it'd fill something in her.  She decided working at HHM didn't cut it so she thought going out on her own would satisfy her.  Then when that didn't work, she thought being a partner at a big law firm would help her.  And then she decided helping the less fortunate was her purpose in life.  But she easily was willing to give up that opportunity as well just to finish the Howard con. 

I think she wanted to be a lawyer but I disagree with people who think she found joy in it.  Or that helping the less fortunate was her dream that she sacrificed to go after Howard. 

She's joyless in FL but I never saw her as having much joy in NM either outside of a few moments. 

Edited August 15, 2022 by Irlandesa

[ShadowFacts]

34 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I'm still not sure why Kim became a lawyer. She wanted "more" than life in Nebraska offered and eventually ended up working in HHM's mailroom. Perhaps she became a lawyer through a combination of ambition, osmosis and HHM's willingness to pay for her law degree.

I have a vague memory of some flashback of her listening to Chuck talk about something, and she looked starstruck, while she was still in the mailroom days.  I think she had admiration for his brilliance and thought she would like to be like him.

14 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

I think she wanted to be a lawyer but I disagree with people who think she found joy in it.  Or that helping the less fortunate was her dream that she sacrificed to go after Howard. 

She has a flat affect in general, is fairly stoic, hard to read. The only times she looks like she enjoys anything very much is when pulling off something and especially after a scam, she is turned on.

[SunnyBeBe]

Much of the practice of law involves mundane work.  You have to research, review, repeat, study, etc, There’s a reason it’s called practicing.  Even if you’re representing clients in criminal cases or those in which you contend their rights were violated, it’s still monotonous work.  Helping the little guy in an exciting and heroic way that Kim seems to be enthralled with is rather naive and unrealistic.  All the stuff she seemed to get bored with is what one does as part of their job.  Attorneys do that for years to grow proficient.  I get how banking might have seemed impersonal, but the same principles apply, regardless of who the client is.  And creating cons to get clients a certain result in court is preposterous.  Those kind of shenanigans would last a short time.  People talk and even if the DA and Judge didn’t catch on, her own clients word of mouth would have sunk her ship eventually. (I’ve practiced civil and criminal law for many years.)

Edited August 15, 2022 by SunnyBeBe

[Razzberry]

47 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

She has a flat affect in general, is fairly stoic, hard to read. The only times she looks like she enjoys anything very much is when pulling off something and especially after a scam, she is turned on.

Yeah, I think she may have chronic hybristophilia, and probably shouldn't be around criminal defendants anyway.   Florida man is better than writing fangirl letters to Lyle Menendez.  

Edited August 15, 2022 by Razzberry

[Constantinople]

31 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Much of the practice of law involves mundane work.  You have to research, review, repeat, study, etc, There’s a reason it’s called practicing.  Even if you’re representing clients in criminal cases or those in which you contend their rights were violated, it’s still monotonous work.  Helping the little guy in an exciting and heroic way that Kim seems to be enthralled with is rather naive and unrealistic.  All the stuff she seemed to get bored with is what one does as part of their job

I can understand that because every job has its boring aspects. But Kim always seemed to decide that interesting or satisfying part of her job wasn't interesting or satisfying enough to put up with the boring part of her job.

[Cinnabon]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I'm not convinced Kim ever really enjoyed being a lawyer, except perhaps for fleeting moments.

I'm still not sure why Kim became a lawyer. She wanted "more" than life in Nebraska offered and eventually ended up working in HHM's mailroom. Perhaps she became a lawyer through a combination of ambition, osmosis and HHM's willingness to pay for her law degree.

Kim was successful because she was smart and hardworking -- and because Jimmy sabotaged HHM's chances of keeping Mesa Verde as a client -- but she quit or passed up on every opportunity she had.

After going to law school and then working at HHM for a number of years, I would have thought she would have had some idea in what field of law she wanted to practice. I can understand why she left HHM given her relationship with Howard, but then she transitions to banking law, first as a solo practitioner and then as a partner at Schweikart & Cokely.

Kim then decides banking law isn't for her, so she quits Schweikart & Cokely, resigns as Mesa Verde's lawyer, and then decides to be a criminal defense attorney for those underserved by the legal community. Kim has one case that satisfies her, but otherwise I don't recall her expressing that much enthusiasm for the work. With Cliff's help, she gets an appointment with the Jackson Mercer Foundation. That would help finance her practice, but she blows that off so she and Jimmy can keep the scam going against Howard.

There may be a number of reasons for that, but one reason appears to be that she enjoys scamming people more than her legal work. Jimmy in contrast sees his legal work as another type of scam, so he sees the mundane details of legal work as laying the groundwork for a scam.

Kim doesn't particularly seem to enjoy her work at the sprinkler company either, so I'm not sure why in Waterworks, Kim looked so wistfully at the pony tailed defense attorney in the courthouse building helping her client put on a tie. 

Does Kim regret no longer working as a lawyer? Or does she regret that she gave up a higher paying, more prestigious career, even if it wasn't one she particularly enjoyed?

I think she enjoyed being a lawyer, especially once she got out on her own. And she was good at it! I also disagree that working at HHM was “more prestigious.” And working for Kevin had to be stressful and soul crushing, imo. I have a lot more respect for the work she did in her independent practice. A high salary, cushy office, and lots of perks doesn’t mean the employee is particularly prestigious, nor does it make a lawyer more impressive or of a higher caliber for choosing to work there. YMMV.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Cinnabon

[Lalo Lives]

On 8/8/2022 at 12:39 PM, peeayebee said:

I watched this with CC on, which helped a lot. I have such a problem listening to monotone narration.

This was a pretty interesting analysis. Thanks for posting. One observation I liked was that J & K have both, all their lives, been trying to suppress the desire to get on the bad choice road. J's method was to try to win the favor of his family. K's method was to leave her mother, her family, and she emotionally cuts herself off from people and envelops herself in her work. (I notice that Kim left Nebraska to get away from a bad influence, and she does the same thing with Albuequerque. [Will I ever learn spell that city?])

AL BU QU ER QUE

Say it out loud, with cadence, pause in between each section. It works.

Saw it explained in a movie nearly 40 years ago.

[Constantinople]

8 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

I think she enjoyed being a lawyer, especially once she got out on her own. And she was good at it!

I acknowledged she was good at it, but she still quit every job she had as a lawyer. Every one. And she passed up her opportunity with the Jackson Mercer Foundation. 

Quote

I also disagree that working at HHM was “more prestigious.”

I was referring to her career as a lawyer in general. In general, I think society would say working as a lawyer is more prestigious -- particularly as a lawyer at a firm like HHM or as a partner at Schweikart & Cokely -- than writing copy for a sprinkler company's on-line catalogue.

[PeterPirate]

In one of the videos I posted before, the speaker pointed out the Kim changed her behavior whenever she felt her ethics being challenged.  This was most evident when Acker derisively called her "one of the best people" and she responded by getting Jimmy to work against Mesa Verde's interests.  

Kim's fundamental problem was her association with Jimmy McGill, which can be linked in some way to her relationship with her mother.  

Edited August 16, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Adiba]

11 hours ago, Razzberry said:

Yeah, I think she may have chronic hybristophilia, and probably shouldn't be around criminal defendants anyway.   Florida man is better than writing fangirl letters to Lyle Menendez.  

Really, from what we've seen, at least, Florida man isn't so bad. He is likely a bit dull, but seems nice enough and dependable. Does that mean he's a good match for Kim? Probably not.

However, is/was Jimmy/Saul/Gene a good match for Kim? Nope. Theirs was a dysfunctional relationship at best and a destructive one at worst.

[gallimaufry]

On 8/14/2022 at 1:23 AM, Spartan Girl said:

As hard as I try, I can’t even give Kim a fraction of the sympathy I had for Skyler.

And it’s not just because Skyler was more or less manipulated into going along into breaking bad with Walt, whereas Kim went full-on Lady Macbeth of her own free will. It’s because Kim ran away and Skyler didn’t.

I'm not one of the Skylar-haters but I think Skylar absolutely broke bad in a more profound way than is usually recognised.  She has every opportunity in early season 3 to turn Walt in and consciously chooses not to -- there's even the scene with the lawyer where the lawyer realises that Skylar is looking for permission to spend the money.  She also goes along with covering up Walt's misdeeds in S5B when she's effectively forced to choose between Walt and Hank.  There's also the scene where she tries to run away to the state boundary, tosses a coin and lands on New Mexico every time. 

Kim did what she needed to do to protect herself and to protect the person she loved -- plus with the extra inducement that going against the cartel was likely a death sentence for them both.  Now knowing that Mike and Gus are dead, there isn't that excuse and she comes forward.  Too late?  Maybe.  But she came to the conclusion of her own volition.  And frankly, Kim's charge sheet against Skylar's... it's not even remotely comparable.  Skylar laundered millions, blackmailed and threatened violence and was completely willing for Walt to have Jesse murdered.  Kim used game-playing to win a legal case, win a bank a bigger office and humiliating a senior partner into settling a big case slightly earlier and for slightly less money.  Her worst crimes include drugging Howard but she made sure the drug would no more dangerous than a Red Bull on an empty stomach and covering up Howard's murder in a way that made Cheryl feel culpable.

But fundamentally, I do think motive is important.  Kim genuinely thought she was going to secure -- in a utilitarian sense -- the best outcome for the most people and was committed to using her powers "for good".  Her judgment was shocking and it went terribly wrong through unintended consequences but I think there is a difference between this and Skylar who didn't want to lose her husband, didn't want to disappoint her son, didn't want to give up the money and basically acted only for her own self-interest and, to a lesser extent, for the interests of her family including Hank.

On 8/15/2022 at 3:10 AM, Constantinople said:

I can understand that because every job has its boring aspects. But Kim always seemed to decide that interesting or satisfying part of her job wasn't interesting or satisfying enough to put up with the boring part of her job.

I don't think the job bored her at all.  She poured herself into every minute detail, even down to the semi-colons.  It wasn't boredom that undid her but a feeling that she was in it for the justice and in the end she wasn't actually an agent for justice.  As a lawyer for HHM, she had no agency because Howard showed no faith in her.  Working for Mesa Verde, she was shown faith but she wasn't making the world a better place at all.  Jimmy offered her the opportunity to get the "just" results. 

A few thoughts after the finale...

First, I really like the Vanity Fair interview with Peter Gould because they ask about 6A's Kim.  I think his answer ties in to my view of it all the way along:

Absolutely Howard got under her skin, but she doesn't hate Howard. It's more that in that moment at the end of season five, she feels like Jimmy is about to break up [with her]. And she knows that the scamming is how they renew themselves—that's the awful cycle that these two are in. The first time they kissed, it was right after right after they scammed a guy into buying an expensive bottle of the zafiro anejo. Sometimes it's Kim calling Jimmy saying, I've got a live one. That's what renews them, so she's following that pattern, making it a little bit bigger. ….These two people just don't quite believe in themselves enough and believe in the relationship enough so they use this jolt of energy they get from scamming. Even if it had not led to Howard's death, the next time they pushed it, something bad would’ve happened.

And that's kind of where 609 left it, but I'm not entirely sure leaving Kim as opaque and grim as she was necessarily worked.  They also dipped their toes in suggesting a much deeper darkness - especially in 602 with her "You've no idea" speech to Betsy.

There's a lot of talk about a Kim sequel series and although all the main creatives are moving onto other things (and I have to say I'm really excited to see where they all end up - not just Vince Gilligan but in particular Peter Gould and Gordon Smith.  I'd kind of like to see Gennifer Hutchison do something different from the LOTR spin-off which doesn't really interest me as I'm very much a book purist when it comes to Tolkien).  But if they did come back to Kim ten years down the track, could it work?  For a long time I thought it wouldn't because Kim has been such a well-developed character here.  But now I think... maybe.  

I wouldn't want an "El Camino" thing where the story is inessential and lands her basically where she started.  I definitely would fear the "franchising" of the universe to too great an extent.

But something with perhaps a slightly different, more optimistic tone with Kim giant-killing while saving her soul and rebuilding her life could be pretty awesome.  I would love to know more about her father.  I think it's a pity her friendship with Paige was not really expanded upon.  And clearly there's a darkness in her past that has never been fully exorcised.  I'm frankly surprised that everyone has been so open about the fact that there could be a story there and I'm optimistic we might one day get more.  And while usually with sequels there's a big risk and even "El Camino" to me shows that these guys don't always nail it, I now think that I would love to see a Kim sequel one day.

[Irlandesa]

11 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

But fundamentally, I do think motive is important.  Kim genuinely thought she was going to secure -- in a utilitarian sense -- the best outcome for the most people and was committed to using her powers "for good".  Her judgment was shocking and it went terribly wrong through unintended consequences but I think there is a difference between this and Skylar who didn't want to lose her husband, didn't want to disappoint her son, didn't want to give up the money and basically acted only for her own self-interest and, to a lesser extent, for the interests of her family including Hank.

My interpretation of Kim is closer to yours of Skylar in that I think, like Walter, she told herself that it was the means to a positive outcome but it became more about the journey than the outcome.  In the end, not only did her actions hurt Howard but they also hurt his clients.  His drugged behavior meant that the Sandpiper lawyers weren't at all interested in negotiating a larger settlement than their initial offer.

But I also think people forget that by the time Skylar finds out about the drug making, she had already been sexually assaulted by Walt.  And after she finds out, when she's trying to decide whether or not to blow up her life, he moves back into the house and lets her know that he's not going to leave. It's not just the money he's making she has to consider but that the government could seize everything they own.  Her crimes were worse but she was also in a more dangerous situation.  Walt was wholly unpredictable. 

[Simon Boccanegra]

Rhea Seehorn on playing Kim again in the future: "If they want to do one, I will do it! As far as I know, they have said that they want to take a break from this universe for a while. But yeah, if we get to do it, I hope it's not, like, 80-year-old Kim. I'd like to do it while I'm still a little spry — but I'll do it whenever they want to." 

https://ew.com/tv/better-call-saul-rhea-seehorn-on-series-finale/

[gallimaufry]

6 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

My interpretation of Kim is closer to yours of Skylar in that I think, like Walter, she told herself that it was the means to a positive outcome but it became more about the journey than the outcome.  In the end, not only did her actions hurt Howard but they also hurt his clients.  His drugged behavior meant that the Sandpiper lawyers weren't at all interested in negotiating a larger settlement than their initial offer.

But I also think people forget that by the time Skylar finds out about the drug making, she had already been sexually assaulted by Walt.  And after she finds out, when she's trying to decide whether or not to blow up her life, he moves back into the house and lets her know that he's not going to leave. It's not just the money he's making she has to consider but that the government could seize everything they own.  Her crimes were worse but she was also in a more dangerous situation.  Walt was wholly unpredictable. 

Interesting points.

However, Skylar had a safety net in Hank and Marie and frankly I don't know she realised the danger of her situation until way after she had "broken bad" - not until the "I am the one who knocks" speech.  It's really her decisions in early S3 where I think she makes her own bed.

I completely agree that Kim's style of thinking is closer to Walt's in that there's an element of self-delusion.  However, Walt absolutely knew the damage he caused from an early point - by the time he goes back to Jesse in BB 104, he's already killed two people and has interacted with several meth-heads plus he knows from Hank how much a scourge meth is. 

I think what they did very cleverly in Kim's case is that the "hurt" the Sandpiper people experience is actually not all that clear-cut in its own rights.  If you look at the Howard scene in 605, he is pushing for (not necessarily securing) an extra 30% payout on top of the penalty (the phrasing of which is presumably formulated to disguise that the actual potential percentage is somewhat less).  Several of the clients clearly have concerns that they "don't have a protracted timeline" and Howard uses charm to win them round as well as the rather dubious argument that big corporations shouldn't pick the pockets of the little guy.  But fundamentally, the biggest individual winners from this would be the lawyers and many individuals in that case would not live to see any money whatsoever as the result of the prevarication.

Kim could absolutely make a good-faith argument for speed here.  What makes her so clearly in the wrong is that this clearly isn't her motivation at all.  She has no regard for the best interests of the clients, only of her own desire for the money, her wish to pull off a long con against Howard and her wish to stay close to Jimmy. Nevertheless, I think she has considered who she is harming and she has concluded that a career setback for Howard and a rounding error difference in payout for his clients, delivered at an accelerated timetable, is vastly outweighed by the good she would do defending the helpless.  

Here's the kicker: she's almost certainly correct.  In a cold, utilitarian sense, Howard would rebuild himself (as he himself admitted) and the Sandpiper residents would be pleased with their payout while many people would be defended in ways they hadn't been up until now.  If you take the view that you want to the most good for the most people, her aims make sense.  (It also kept Jimmy on a less-destructive trajectory than he had been on immediately prior by associating with Lalo).

What she didn't factor in were the unexpected freak consequences of living this kind of life and taking upon yourself the right to try and fix the scales of justice as you wish.  If she had known the actual consequence would be Howard's death (or any death), she never would have gone near it.  That's significantly different from Skylar who absolutely knows that people die as a result of Walt's actions and, certainly by 514, is resigned to that.  

The other key difference is that she is absolutely the author of her own crimes whereas Skylar essentially remains in the orbit of Walt and follows along in his wake.  But she did have a choice - many choices, every family meal with Hank for a year or more - to take a different path, especially while she still didn't really know much about Walt's world and the people he was up against.  In Kim's case, she saw how efficient Mike was and how vast their operation was, plus how dangerous the cartel was - she knew that confessing in 2004 was a suicide mission and confessed almost as soon as she had confirmation that it was safe to do so.  

[PeterPirate]

4 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

In Kim's case, she saw how efficient Mike was and how vast their operation was, plus how dangerous the cartel was - she knew that confessing in 2004 was a suicide mission and confessed almost as soon as she had confirmation that it was safe to do so.  

Excellent point.  I hadn't considered that part of the dynamic.  

I'm just glad that in the end, the Atticus Finch side of Kim won the day.  

And also that her redemption arc, as well as Jimmy's, started with Kim asking Francesca if he was still alive.  

Edited August 17, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Simon Boccanegra]

It was a story about love, deception, greed, lust, and unbridled enthusiasm. That's what led to Kim Wexler's downfall. 

[Cinnabon]

7 minutes ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

It was a story about love, deception, greed, lust, and unbridled enthusiasm. That's what led to Kim Wexler's downfall. 

Seinfeld? 🤣 a Christmas story?

[Simon Boccanegra]

5 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Seinfeld?

Yeah. At some point it hit me that with a few noun tweaks, a great deal of what's out there in arts and entertainment, the great and the terrible alike, can be summed up by Kramer's description of the manuscript Elaine was supposed to read for her new job. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Simon Boccanegra

[Cinnabon]

2 minutes ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

Yeah. At some point it hit me that with a few noun tweaks, a great deal of what's out there in arts and entertainment, the great and the terrible alike, can be summed up by Kramer's description of the manuscript Elaine was supposed to read for her new job. 

I love it! Clearly I’ve seen the show too many times because I recognized it immediately. 😂

[Simon Boccanegra]

You see, Cinnabon, Kim was a simple midwestern girl -- you might say a "cockeyed optimist" -- who got herself mixed up in the high-stakes game of ethics breaches and drug cartels. 

[PeterPirate]

19 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

26 minutes ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

It was a story about love, deception, greed, lust, and unbridled enthusiasm. That's what led to Kim Wexler's downfall. 

Seinfeld? 🤣 a Christmas story?

See, I was going to respond with Romeo and Juliet.  

Mileage and all that.