S01.E08: RICO

[ALenore]

The explanation of how Jimmy got his law degree made me respect him even more than before.   I assumed the "University of American Samoa" law school was something like the medical school on Granada.  I figured that Chuck paid his way to a "party school" where he spent all his free time on the beach drinking rum.  But it turns out he put himself through law school, didn't get to spend any time on the beach, and kept it a secret from everyone but Kim. 

[HappyDancex2]

I let out an audible laugh when Jimmy glanced at the picture of Christ on the wall and said "...thy will be done." 

[WicketyWack]

"Are you proud of me?" Oh Jimmy.

And Chuck's reaction! Giant pause and "Hm? Oh, oh oh - yes! Absolutely!"Could he be more of a DICK at that moment? 

 

So much dickish lawyer behavior. That competing attorney, trying to get under Jimmy's skin with "Yeah, I heard about this" and then chuckling with the other two. To Chuck: "I figured you'd be arguing in front of the Supreme Court someday." It was so effing enjoyable to see him lose his swagger at the RICO news, and his discomfort at Chuck's slam-dunk. I would like to see Howard get served in much, much worse fashion but I fear Show is not going to give that to me.

[peggy06]

I don't watch the previews because I don't want to be spoiled...but now I guess I am.

 

Damn.

 

I realize anything in the previews is technically "fair game" to discuss (at least it was at TwoP; I assume the same rules apply here), so I'm not saying you did anything wrong. I'm just putting out a general request to one and all for consideration to those of us who want to enjoy the show unspoiled. Maybe use spoiler tags? Or just say, "Don't read the following if you don't want to be spoiled"? Any kind of warning to skip over the post would be nice.

 

I know what you mean. I generally avoid previews. But don't despair. Sometimes the previews can be misleading, being out of context so to speak. And the post is one person's interpretation of something they saw or think they saw. Who knows?

[Starchild]

Sometimes the previews can be misleading

"Sometimes"?

[WicketyWack]

Glad to see that Sketchy Vet does care about animals. 

 

I wasn't a big fan of Young Kaylee. She barely interacted with Pop-Pop, or with her mom either for that matter. I hope she gets less robotic the more she hangs around Mike.

[tennisgurl]

I like sketchy vet. He is pretty sketchy, but I like that he does care for the animals he takes care of. Being a vet does not seem to just be a cover.

 

I swear, every time I see an ad on TV for attorneys that specialize in elderly people, or really anything about older people getting into trouble I just think "somebody better call Jimmy ASAP"! 

[myname2use4now]

I'm loving this show more and more every week. I loved seeing how Jimmy got through law school and passed the bar. It really has me wondering what happened to Chuck to cause him to develop his condition. I also thought that Mike's daughter in-law sure knew what buttons to push with Mike in order to place pressure on him to earn more cash. This was a really good episode. I'm really loving this series.

[myname2use4now]

I like sketchy vet. He is pretty sketchy, but I like that he does care for the animals he takes care of. Being a vet does not seem to just be a cover.

 

I swear, every time I see an ad on TV for attorneys that specialize in elderly people, or really anything about older people getting into trouble I just think "somebody better call Jimmy ASAP"! 

I like the vet too, but I did chuckle when I saw Mike sitting in the vet's office with the dog. He didn't strike me as a dog lover. The way he handled the dog made me wonder if he didn't just lift it from a neighbor's yard so that he'd have an excuse to go to the vet's place. Then when the vet asked him where he got the dog, I laughed out loud because I was wondering the same thing. There are so many actors on this show who deserve awards for their performances and Jonathan Banks tops the list. 

[Hanahope]

So while I'm sure HHM is, for Albuquerque, is a top notch law firm, come on, its not NYC, or LA, or even Chicago, or Philly, Wash DC.  I mean there are "white shoe" firms and then there are just overly pretentious law firms.  HHM is not a real "white shoe" law firm.  That said, I can certainly understand that Hamlin, big fish in small pond, likes to think he's so much better than others and that Jimmy isn't the "right fit" for HHM (and I'm sure Howard is the son of the original Hamlin, because he's just too much of a dick to not be).  But really, all lawfirms need some 'grunt work' type associates, those that take the less desireable work, there always is a need for that sort of work to be done by someone and Jimmy would do that work with a song in his heart.  Hamlin just wanted to be an asshole and lord over everyone.  Though I am sure that if Chuck really pushed, he could get Jimmy a real job there.  He obviously didn't really want to, perhaps afraid that 'slippin' Jimmy would do something to wreck things or tarnish the firm name.  It certainly is no wonder that Jimmy has it out for Hamlin, but I'm a bit surprised he's not more disillusioned with Chuck. 

 

And really, Jimmy should not trust HHM will 'do the right thing' when it comes time to collect on this great case Jimmy stumbled on, and Chuck will somehow break Jimmy's heart in more ways than one because ultimately Chuck will support his firm over Jimmy and it will steal the case from Jimmy and only give him a small percentage of any recovery. 

[jnymph]

If Chuck breaks Jimmys heart by screwing him over, I will never forgive him. I'd rather have VG bump him off.

Jimmy borrowing the elderly ladies reading glasses was so adorable. I tried to find a screenshot of him wearing those, but to no avail.

On another note, has anyone else felt that Stacy's house is reminiscent of the White home in BB?

In particular, the interior. It's all dark & dreary, with blinds closed & no color.

Edited March 26, 2015 by jnymph

[LoneHaranguer]

 

I like the vet too, but I did chuckle when I saw Mike sitting in the vet's office with the dog. He didn't strike me as a dog lover.

Sometimes it can be helpful to verbalize a problem you're having and with his son gone, I think Mike would prefer to do that with a dog rather than a person or empty room.

[ShadowFacts]

 

But really, all lawfirms need some 'grunt work' type associates, those that take the less desireable work, there always is a need for that sort of work to be done by someone and Jimmy would do that work with a song in his heart.  Hamlin just wanted to be an asshole and lord over everyone.  Though I am sure that if Chuck really pushed, he could get Jimmy a real job there.  He obviously didn't really want to, perhaps afraid that 'slippin' Jimmy would do something to wreck things or tarnish the firm name.  It certainly is no wonder that Jimmy has it out for Hamlin, but I'm a bit surprised he's not more disillusioned with Chuck.

I so agree.  Obviously, Kim was good enough.  Jimmy is no different, except he is the brother of a founding partner.  Hamlin is a d*ck, and I hold it against Chuck for not insisting that Jimmy be hired as an associate.   Note that Jimmy is good enough to virtually be his caregiver in his lengthy illness.  I think Jimmy is just so desperate to have Chuck's approval, but something is being set up that will finally end that, I think. 

[SoSueMe]

I'm wondering if the dog is for Mike's granddaughter....

[ghoulina]

"Are you proud of me?" Oh Jimmy.

And Chuck's reaction! Giant pause and "Hm? Oh, oh oh - yes! Absolutely!"Could he be more of a DICK at that moment?

 

I may be in the minority, but I really didn't take it that way. I think Chuck was stunned. Just utterly stunned silent. Given his brother's past, maybe he just never saw him as having that much drive, of being capable of legitimately earning his way into a serious career. I thought Chuck was absolutely and genuinely proud of Jimmy, but he hadn't said it yet because he was in shock. I felt like he was trying to figure out if this was real or not. But I am totally open to the possibility that my views of Chuck are incredibly naive. 

 

 

I'm wondering if the dog is for Mike's granddaughter...

 

I could have sworn I heard him tell the vet that he did.

[jnymph]

I may be in the minority, but I really didn't take it that way. I think Chuck was stunned. Just utterly stunned silent. Given his brother's past, maybe he just never saw him as having that much drive, of being capable of legitimately earning his way into a serious career. I thought Chuck was absolutely and genuinely proud of Jimmy, but he hadn't said it yet because he was in shock. I felt like he was trying to figure out if this was real or not. But I am totally open to the possibility that my views of Chuck are incredibly naive. 

 

I completely took it that way as well.   Glad I'm not the only one.   LOL

[car54]

I don't think Chuck was condescending to Jimmy--I think he was just shocked that he'd been working on something for years and he'd never told Chuck about it.

From Jimmy's perspective, I think he would not tell his brother because he knows he has screwed up before and disappointed him, so he would hide it until he actually accomplished it.   I am disappointed that Chuck did not give Jimmy any support in the idea that he could work at the firm as a lawyer.   He obviously has made the mail-room job for him, and it sounds like Jimmy did that job faithfully for a long time, it would have been nice to see him move up from his own hard work, and I find it odd that they could not find some kind of associate job where he could be buried doing research and never be seen by the clients if they feel he's not presentable.

I think Chuck knew he'd never be able to sell it to the other partners, but it's sad anyway.

[Pike Ludwell]

I was really impressed with the writers' obvious attention to the legal details. The NMSA and USC citations were on the money, as were the case law cites. They could have just made up the cites, but they were all legit and a realistic legal case.

Edited March 26, 2015 by riverclown

[ghoulina]

I was really impressed with the writers' obvious attention to the legal details. The NMSA and USC citations were on the money, as were the case law cites. They could have just made up the cites, but they were all legit and a realistic legal case.

 

I also read that they printed out very "real" looking documents for the Sandpiper paperwork and then shredded them, so when the brothers were putting them back together, the papers would be believable. 

[Pike Ludwell]

I don't think Chuck will screw over Jimmy in any sort of mean way, but it could be a matter of him not bending over backwards to push  an extremely liberal interpretation of the non-compete clause in his contract. And if Jimmy is screwed out of his money from the case by HHM, I would bet Chuck would just pay him some on his own. Maybe not, but I haven't seen evidence yet that Chuck would be unfair to Jimmy - just that he's sort of reluctant to go to the mat for him because of his past.

[Splash]

One of the things I didn't understand is why Kim was so worried about the accountants flagging $400 worth of copies from Chuck's billing code.  I could understand them questioning it if it was her own code, but even though Chuck is on sabbatical or whatever they're calling it, he's still a named partner and I assume that would give him more leeway for something like that.  Also, that amount of money doesn't seem like all that much for a big law firm to spend that it would get noticed.

 

The aspects of the case itself seem pretty realistic to me and I can absolutely see how the retirement home might be using creative accounting in order to steal from their residents.  I have a relative in a similar kind of place and we've recently discovered some questionable money issues.  In our case, there have been some checks addressed to my relative, who is incapacitated and cannot sign or make any decisions.  These checks are supposed to go to the guardian to deal with, but instead, the facility has been signing and cashing the checks without informing the guardian that the checks existed.

 

And I could totally see the home trying to cover themselves by claiming that residents were informed of all the charges, since they were listed on the bill.  The facility could easily say that it's standard practice to use billing codes and that it's not their fault that the definition of those codes is written in such fine print, but if a resident has questions, they could ask and have them explained.  Of course, that explanation might be more them saying, "It's ok, everything is fine.  That charge is for aspirin.  You did ask and receive aspirin, didn't you?  Do you remember the exact dates, times, and amounts of aspirin you received?  No, that's ok; let us worry about all that, bingo is about to begin and you don't want to be late."

[SailorGirl]

I was really impressed with the writers' obvious attention to the legal details. The NMSA and USC citations were on the money, as were the case law cites. They could have just made up the cites, but they were all legit and a realistic legal case.

Heh, because they know rabid fans are going to look it up! :-)

In all seriousness, it is that level of detail that sets any show apart and turns it from "meh" unmemorable tv to appointment viewing where people actually get invested in the show and it's characters. That attention to detail is what makes a quality show!

[editorgrrl]

I'm wondering if the dog is for Mike's granddaughter....

That would be sweet. I just assumed the dog was going straight back to the pound.

[queenanne]

One of the things I didn't understand is why Kim was so worried about the accountants flagging $400 worth of copies from Chuck's billing code.  I could understand them questioning it if it was her own code, but even though Chuck is on sabbatical or whatever they're calling it, he's still a named partner and I assume that would give him more leeway for something like that.  Also, that amount of money doesn't seem like all that much for a big law firm to spend that it would get noticed.

 

In my experience, firms make you credit copies to client and matter billing suites more than individual people, and/but the mega-copiers can indeed be used as printers with their own drivers, for whatever that's worth (I am hooked up to one such copier at work for mega-printing from my computer - part of making them "Resource Management Systems").  For example, I would expect, if they're talking copies/printouts through the office's monster Canon, to be billed "Chuck McGill, Office General", or "Chuck McGill, Whatever Infamous Case HHM Has That Eats Resources", and not just "Chuck McGill".  The systems I know, the latter wouldn't be worth anything, unless the firm is used to sending attorneys bills for personal reimbursement and payback. 

 

Assuming the way I know is the way they're working it, which I don't recall Kim mentioning, if things billed to Chuck just go into General, then discovery would depend upon how often HHM's accountant/office manager/whomever is in charge of counting paper clips, takes a look at the General billing categories (could be monthly, could be annually).  If they were to be billed to Budgeters v. Resource-Eaters, then whenever the lead attorney wanted to generate bills to be sent to Client Resource-Eaters, is when Chuck's name would pop up and be discovered.

Edited March 27, 2015 by queenanne

[DrSpaceman]

Its admirable how Jimmy made it through law school, but really, they were never going to hire him at HHM. He simply wouldn't be among the best candidates they have to choose from. If he were Joe Blow and his brother didn't work at the firm, his CV would not even make it to one of their desks. And his brother I am sure did not want him working there, but he also didn't want to be the one to tell him so.

trying to recall where I have seen the nursing home lawyer before. Will have to look him up.

Why aren't he and Kim married?

[DrSpaceman]

And while the "dumpster" scene was amusing, those are medical records, most medical offices don't just throw out records in the regular trash for this very reason. You have companies that collect, shred and dispose of the records elsewhere.

[shapeshifter]

And while the "dumpster" scene was amusing, those are medical records, most medical offices don't just throw out records in the regular trash for this very reason. You have companies that collect, shred and dispose of the records elsewhere.

That makes me want to see a revelation that the Sandpiper people having cut corners by in-house shredding led to their being caught by Jimmy's dumpster diving.

[VegetasMom]

I never expected it, but I'm finding there's an undercurrent of sadness when watching this show. It's because I know nothing can go right, because of where Jimmy ends up by the time of Breaking Bad. And, like someone said above, I don't want Jimmy to become Saul. It's like I'm constantly waiting for the other shoe to drop, you know?

 

I hear you.  I want SO BADLY for this to go right for Jimmy, but I'm afraid it's going to get snatched away from him.  And I don't want to see that.  The closing scene last week when he was sitting in that office space he was going to have to let go just tore my heart out.  Jimmy's too good hearted and he tries so hard to just continually end up with nothing.  Come on show...give us something good for the man.  

[ToastnBacon]

I may be in the minority, but I really didn't take it that way. I think Chuck was stunned. Just utterly stunned silent. Given his brother's past, maybe he just never saw him as having that much drive, of being capable of legitimately earning his way into a serious career. I thought Chuck was absolutely and genuinely proud of Jimmy, but he hadn't said it yet because he was in shock. I felt like he was trying to figure out if this was real or not. But I am totally open to the possibility that my views of Chuck are incredibly naive. 

 

 

 

I could have sworn I heard him tell the vet that he did.

I also took Chuck's hesitation as utter shock, and then the realization that Hamlin would never go for hiring Jimmy. I don't think you are far off base with your take on Chuck.

That would be a lot to process if it was totally out of the blue. Plus, he probably felt bad that Jimmy didn't come to him for help.

[ToastnBacon]

I hear you.  I want SO BADLY for this to go right for Jimmy, but I'm afraid it's going to get snatched away from him.  And I don't want to see that.  The closing scene last week when he was sitting in that office space he was going to have to let go just tore my heart out.  Jimmy's too good hearted and he tries so hard to just continually end up with nothing.  Come on show...give us something good for the man.

He will get a victory or two, but he is ultimately headed to the meat grinder.

We know Jimmy is destined to become Saul. His victories will be small and fleeting; however, I think we might be pleasantly surprized to find that Saul isn't such a bad guy.

Just as Jimmy isn't afraid to dive into a dumpster, Saul to isn't afraid to do business with criminals.

[ShadowFacts]

 

Its admirable how Jimmy made it through law school, but really, they were never going to hire him at HHM. He simply wouldn't be among the best candidates they have to choose from. If he were Joe Blow and his brother didn't work at the firm, his CV would not even make it to one of their desks. And his brother I am sure did not want him working there, but he also didn't want to be the one to tell him so.

 

I think Jimmy did have a reasonable expectation that he could be hired there, simply because Kim had been.  She may not have graduated from the same (accredited) institution, but she started off in the mailroom.  If HHM paid her way out of the mailroom and through law school, why shouldn't they give Jimmy, who paid his own way (and has a brother as a partner) a chance as an associate?  If he didn't measure up, out he goes, but at least he should have been given a chance.  From his dealings with the people he was delivering mail to, he seemed well-liked.  If those people didn't think he was good enough to be their peer, well, again I cite Kim.  I think Howard was being an ass and Chuck could have made it happen. 

 

As to why Kim and Jimmy aren't married, that could still happen.  Saul mentions a couple of ex-wives.  I don't see it as very likely.

[DrSpaceman]

I think Jimmy did have a reasonable expectation that he could be hired there, simply because Kim had been.  She may not have graduated from the same (accredited) institution, but she started off in the mailroom.  If HHM paid her way out of the mailroom and through law school, why shouldn't they give Jimmy, who paid his own way (and has a brother as a partner) a chance as an associate?  If he didn't measure up, out he goes, but at least he should have been given a chance.  From his dealings with the people he was delivering mail to, he seemed well-liked.  If those people didn't think he was good enough to be their peer, well, again I cite Kim.  I think Howard was being an ass and Chuck could have made it happen. 

 

As to why Kim and Jimmy aren't married, that could still happen.  Saul mentions a couple of ex-wives.  I don't see it as very likely.

 

 

Kim probably did not have a criminal past.  And outside of them both starting in the mail room, we have no idea how else Kim's path was similar to Chuck's.  She may have graduated from a decent land based american law school and got decent grades.  Not necessarily the same situation. 

 

Again though the biggest thing is, Chuck, yes, could have made it happen, he didn't WANT it to happen. 

[ShadowFacts]

Kim probably went to the U of NM if she kept working at HHM.  And Jimmy's past didn't preclude him from admission to the bar.  So not the same situation, no, but still Jimmy had a reasonable expectation that his own brother would hire him.  Luckily for Chuck, though he couldn't make an effort to let Jimmy's foot in the door, he does deem him good enough to take care of him in his lengthy illness. 

[ToastnBacon]

I had no idea that Hydrox cookies are actually the inspiration for Oreos until I looked it up during the commercial break.

I always thought Hydrox was a weird knock-off of the Oreo brand, but it is the other way around.

It is such a weird sounding name for a cookie!

Hydrox!

Made with real hydrogen peroxide!

WTF?

They did strange things back in 1908.

[LoneHaranguer]

 

I just assumed the dog was going straight back to the pound.

If Mike is going to be using the vet as a business connection, he's going to need an excuse to keep contacting him.

[Hanahope]

A real lawyer's take on the lawsuit:

 

http://www.fosterpc.com/when-it-comes-to-rico-better-not-call-saul-an-admiring-tongue-in-cheek-critique-of-season-one-episode-eight/

[ghoulina]

I also took Chuck's hesitation as utter shock, and then the realization that Hamlin would never go for hiring Jimmy. I don't think you are far off base with your take on Chuck.

That would be a lot to process if it was totally out of the blue. Plus, he probably felt bad that Jimmy didn't come to him for help.

 

Yes, agreed on the latter. He even asked why Jimmy hadn't come to him. I rewatched last night and I feel even more that Chuck was nothing but happy and proud for Jimmy, just very very shocked. I think he actually would have really wanted Jimmy to come on board. He said things like, "Look at all you've done!" and "Why wouldn't they?" (want to hire you). Maybe Chuck is an idealist and actually brought the idea to Hamlin seriously, but realized there wasn't much he could do. I don't know, but I do think Chuck was pleased as punch with all Jimmy went through. 

 

I also really loved the present day moment when Jimmy woke up and Chuck had been working on the case and using terms like "we" and "us....Jimmy asks, "We? Are we working together?" and Chuck says "That's up to you" (paraphrasing here). It was clear he wasn't some vulture, seeing a good opportunity and trying to snatch it up from Jimmy. Again, I saw Chuck being proud of his brother, and he wasn't going to take this away from him, but he certainly would help. 

 

I really really hope things don't go wrong between them. :(

 

 

 

I gotta say, I just love that they gave Jimmy the elder law schtick because I freaking LOVE old people! Mrs. Landry was such a hoot. And working with them really shows what a heart Jimmy has. Not only was he okay letting Mrs. Landry get the money to him later, he also knocked $20 off the bill. I just love him. 

Edited March 27, 2015 by ghoulina

[Milburn Stone]

I hear you.  I want SO BADLY for this to go right for Jimmy, but I'm afraid it's going to get snatched away from him.  And I don't want to see that.  The closing scene last week when he was sitting in that office space he was going to have to let go just tore my heart out.  Jimmy's too good hearted and he tries so hard to just continually end up with nothing.  Come on show...give us something good for the man.  

 

This, but also, what's wonderful about the show is that it is basically answering the question, "How does someone like Saul become someone like Saul?" Through a series of crushing, heart-breaking, embittering defeats, appears to be its answer. And I buy that.

 

By showing us the can't-catch-a-break-within-the-system life story of Jimmy McGill, they are humanizing Saul Goodman.

 

I'm no Shakespeare scholar, but it seems to me almost Shakespearian--the way Shakespeare would make his villain-protagonists fully human, by helping us understand how they turned to a life of villainy. Or, on a less exalted level, how comic book villains often have their origins explained in the mythology. :)

Edited March 27, 2015 by Milburn Stone

[kwicherbichen]

I hate how the episodes just END without warning! It makes them feel so short.

 

Yes, I am actually kinda sorta sexually attracted to Jimmy now. So glad I'm not the only weirdo on this, lol. The moment I "fell" was when he was talking to Chuck, face half hidden in the shadows and you could see the pure color in his hopeful eye. I can't help but fall for a man who is tested over and over and for the most part has consistent moral ground. I can't help but get behind a man with a dream and the character to go for it. I'm the kind of woman who'd marry Martin Luther King -- it is super hard, unpleasant, and sometimes dangerous. Most women could not and would not sign up for that-- but can't help myself.

 

Jimmy has got to be my all time favorite character of any show or movie. I just can't get enough of that good-hearted tenaciousness despite immense ridicule and failure. 

 

So many questions left for this episode -- but I suspect Jimmy will get SCREWED OVER by this case. Once HMM finds out how big this case is and the cash out reward and see that Chuck is able to work (he actually went outside without blinking an eye), they are going to force him to take the case in with HMM and cut Jimmy out. I found it odd that when his sorta-girlfriend was talking about the printing and Chuck's contract, Jimmy brushed it aside like "I'll deal with that when it comes". I don't know if he was just so excited by this case and the chance to work with Chuck or blinded by all the potential money to be made. Or did he trust Chuck to use his skills to ensure Jimmy doesn't get schticked? I don't know and I can only assume the worse since Jimmy is not actively trying to cover his ass on this one.

 

 

By showing us the can't-catch-a-break-within-the-system life story of Jimmy McGill, they are humanizing Saul Goodman.

 

Well, look here -- I NEVER saw Saul as a bad guy in the first place!! I was never dehumanized or desensitized to his character. I didn't understand where he came from, but he really just gave me the impression of a man who wanted to be a good lawyer and be damn good at his job, but this was the best he could do. And since working with criminals was the best he could do, he's going to do his best with them. Saul gave his ALL for his clients. He had employees who seemed like they didn't give two shits, but Saul did. He had to deal, day in and day out, with the most frustrating bunch of humans Albuquerque had to offer and he still gave his all. To the point that he GAVE UP HIS LIFE for a client (and had to go into hiding). I never saw Saul as the bad guy. I always felt kind of sorry for him. 

 

I'm not as interested in Mike's story. In BB, when it was revealed his motivation for doing what he does, I thought that was sweet. It was great to have that insight for his character. But in this show, I'm not really that interested. His daughter-in-law is really wringing him for all he's got which annoys the heck out of me. I'll start getting interested in Mike when I see the hard decisions he has to make. But as of right now, that one episode for him was enough for me.

 

I just want to see Jimmy be Jimmy. That's all.

 

This show is turning out to be a tragic story. Not even the "Rise and Fall" because I wouldn't call his Better Call Saul business much of a "rise". It is turning into the story of a man with high hopes, good heart, and talent -- and no reward. I sense tragedy in ever episode.

Edited March 27, 2015 by kwicherbichen

[Clanstarling]

I'm no Shakespeare scholar, but it seems to me almost Shakespearian--the way Shakespeare would make his villain-protagonists fully human, by helping us understand how they turned to a life of villainy. Or, on a less exalted level, how comic book villains often have their origins explained in the mythology. :)

It's been a long time since I was a lit major, but I have been thinking that Jimmy fits the definition of tragic hero (Shakespeare being the author of many tragedies). I found two definitions, literary and a TV Trope. First, the literary:

 

"A tragic hero is a person of noble birth with heroic or potentially heroic qualities. This person is fated by the Gods or by some supernatural force to doom and destruction or at least to great suffering."

 

1) Nobel birth (well, a well off family, at least) 2) heroic/potentially heroic qualities (Jimmy's helped people out even when it worked against him). The second sentence  pretty much describes Jimmy's experiences and fate.

 

TV Tropes had a discussion that is pretty interesting, in the context of this show: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TragicHero

 

My favorite line in that discussion is this: "This trope is rare on television, perhaps because watching someone fail once teaches a lesson, while watching them fail every Tuesday gets boring".

 

Not so much in BCS. Which is what makes it brilliant.

 

 

Well, look here -- I NEVER saw Saul as a bad guy in the first place!! I was never dehumanized or desensitized to his character. I didn't understand where he came from, but he really just gave me the impression of a man who wanted to be a good lawyer and be damn good at his job, but this was the best he could do. And since working with criminals was the best he could do, he's going to do his best with them. Saul gave his ALL for his clients. He had employees who seemed like they didn't give two shits, but Saul did. He had to deal, day in and day out, with the most frustrating bunch of humans Albuquerque had to offer and he still gave his all. To the point that he GAVE UP HIS LIFE for a client (and had to go into hiding). I never saw Saul as the bad guy. I always felt kind of sorry for him. 

 

This show is turning out to be a tragic story. Not even the "Rise and Fall" because I wouldn't call his Better Call Saul business much of a "rise". It is turning into the story of a man with high hopes, good heart, and talent -- and no reward. I sense tragedy in ever episode.

I agree completely. I always liked Saul, even at his worst. And I really like Jimmy, who is continually dumped on by the universe but picks himself up and dusts himself off and keeps going.

[kwicherbichen]

It's been a long time since I was a lit major, but I have been thinking that Jimmy fits the definition of tragic hero (Shakespeare being the author of many tragedies). I found two definitions, literary and a TV Trope. First, the literary:

 

"A tragic hero is a person of noble birth with heroic or potentially heroic qualities. This person is fated by the Gods or by some supernatural force to doom and destruction or at least to great suffering."

 

THIS!!!!

 

Yes, that's the word I was looking for. This is a story of a TRAGIC HERO.

[Bannon]

I hate how the episodes just END without warning! It makes them feel so short.

 

Yes, I am actually kinda sorta sexually attracted to Jimmy now. So glad I'm not the only weirdo on this, lol. The moment I "fell" was when he was talking to Chuck, face half hidden in the shadows and you could see the pure color in his hopeful eye. I can't help but fall for a man who is tested over and over and for the most part has consistent moral ground. I can't help but get behind a man with a dream and the character to go for it. I'm the kind of woman who'd marry Martin Luther King -- it is super hard, unpleasant, and sometimes dangerous. Most women could not and would not sign up for that-- but can't help myself.

 

Jimmy has got to be my all time favorite character of any show or movie. I just can't get enough of that good-hearted tenaciousness despite immense ridicule and failure. 

 

So many questions left for this episode -- but I suspect Jimmy will get SCREWED OVER by this case. Once HMM finds out how big this case is and the cash out reward and see that Chuck is able to work (he actually went outside without blinking an eye), they are going to force him to take the case in with HMM and cut Jimmy out. I found it odd that when his sorta-girlfriend was talking about the printing and Chuck's contract, Jimmy brushed it aside like "I'll deal with that when it comes". I don't know if he was just so excited by this case and the chance to work with Chuck or blinded by all the potential money to be made. Or did he trust Chuck to use his skills to ensure Jimmy doesn't get schticked? I don't know and I can only assume the worse since Jimmy is not actively trying to cover his ass on this one.

 

 

Well, look here -- I NEVER saw Saul as a bad guy in the first place!! I was never dehumanized or desensitized to his character. I didn't understand where he came from, but he really just gave me the impression of a man who wanted to be a good lawyer and be damn good at his job, but this was the best he could do. And since working with criminals was the best he could do, he's going to do his best with them. Saul gave his ALL for his clients. He had employees who seemed like they didn't give two shits, but Saul did. He had to deal, day in and day out, with the most frustrating bunch of humans Albuquerque had to offer and he still gave his all. To the point that he GAVE UP HIS LIFE for a client (and had to go into hiding). I never saw Saul as the bad guy. I always felt kind of sorry for him. 

 

I'm not as interested in Mike's story. In BB, when it was revealed his motivation for doing what he does, I thought that was sweet. It was great to have that insight for his character. But in this show, I'm not really that interested. His daughter-in-law is really wringing him for all he's got which annoys the heck out of me. I'll start getting interested in Mike when I see the hard decisions he has to make. But as of right now, that one episode for him was enough for me.

 

I just want to see Jimmy be Jimmy. That's all.

 

This show is turning out to be a tragic story. Not even the "Rise and Fall" because I wouldn't call his Better Call Saul business much of a "rise". It is turning into the story of a man with high hopes, good heart, and talent -- and no reward. I sense tragedy in ever episode.

I agree. In addition to inevitably getting screwed by HHM, I fear that something awful has to happen to Chuck, because I don't see it as credible that Chuck would knowingly shaft Jimmy, that even if Chuck's partners forced Chuck to go along with cutting Jimmy out of his share of a uge Sandpiper settlement, Chuck would be fair to Jimmy as best he could, with his own earnings. I think Chuck is going to suffer a bad fate as well,and Jimmy is going to feel huge regret about it, even if Jimmy isn't responsible.  

[axlmadonna]

I agree with everyone who has said that they are strangely attracted to Jimmy. I noticed it too, and I think it is as attributable (if not more so) to Odenkirk as to the character/writing. He's just SO brilliant in his acting choices, and his looks (while not conventionally handsome) are not undesirable, especially in combination with his sweetness and sense of humor. He's a good package.

 

I also agree with those who have said that they never saw Saul as a bad guy on BB. I can see how he would be considered "sleazy", what with the ambulance chasing ads and whatnot, and he did charge rather excessive upfront fees (though, maybe not so excessive, considering the personal risks he undertook for his clients), but he never screwed them over or lied to them (at worst, withholding information on a need-to-know basis, at least in Walt's case). He always gave them the best possible legal advice, and then continued doing so after they refused to take that advice in the first place and got themselves into even deeper trouble. The way he handled those mini-slippin' Jimmies in the early epiodes was indicative of how he treated his clients as Saul... using his quick wits and persuasive skills to get them the best possible outcome. Saul may be tacky, maybe even opportunistic, but you can clearly see Jimmy in there... albeit an older and more cynical version. The way he looked out for Jesse is a perfect example, trying to protect him from Walt or when he agreed to be the go-between to bring money to Andrea for him.

 

I like Kim, and I like her voice, but I absolutely agree with the person who said that she seems like she thinks she could do better than him. This is a common thing in real life, this uneven dynamic between people. The way I see it, she may feel that way... but she also can't help but be attracted to and like Jimmy, and to respect him for who he is, despite herself. And, when all is said and done, he's the one with whom she chooses to spend her time. There is no question that there is affection there, and as many have speculated, she may end up being one of his ex-wives. There is certainly chemistry between them, so it's not out of the question for her to eventually see him as an equal and not someone for whom she is settling... especially as she sees him achieving more successes.

 

I find Mike's backstory very interesting as well. Vince Gilligan is a masterful storyteller, but the writers and actors (and casting directors!) deserve just as much credit. No matter how brilliant the overall plan for the show, it wouldn't be nearly as compelling without all of these factors coming together so perfectly. They all deserve the awards and recognition that I have to assume are coming in their near futures.

[ShadowFacts]

 

He always gave them the best possible legal advice, and then continued doing so after they refused to take that advice in the first place and got themselves into even deeper trouble. The way he handled those mini-slippin' Jimmies in the early epiodes was indicative of how he treated his clients as Saul... using his quick wits and persuasive skills to get them the best possible outcome. Saul may be tacky, maybe even opportunistic, but you can clearly see Jimmy in there... albeit an older and more cynical version. The way he looked out for Jesse is a perfect example, trying to protect him from Walt or when he agreed to be the go-between to bring money to Andrea for him.

 

I am on board with all the Jimmy love, and I found Saul entertaining and likeable.  But I disagree that he was only a little sleazy and gave the best possible legal advice.  I think there is no doubt that with his involvement with money laundering he was crossing the line from zealous representation of the client into participating in a criminal enterprise.  Given where/how he ended up, he pretty much miscalculated how much he could get away with.  He has already shown seeds of his criminal tendencies with the Kettlemans, though he course-corrected with putting the money back, but had already gotten Mike to steal the stolen money.  He has acted mostly ethically with his elderly clients, and been patient and kind with them.  He swings back and forth between doing the right thing and the wrong thing, and I guess he has since way back in his Chicago days.  But he's damn endearing even when doing sketchy things.

[Starchild]

I like Kim, and I like her voice, but I absolutely agree with the person who said that she seems like she thinks she could do better than him.

Poor Jimmy, that's his problem. Everyone (Kim, HHM, maybe even Chuck in a way) thinks they can do better than Jimmy. And they all overlook this fantastic guy just because he's rough around the edges.

[DrSpaceman]

I never viewed Saul as a bad guy on BB. To quote the great movie Galaxy quest, he was the spunky comic relief.

Certainly he was much different then than what we have seen on this show. He wasn't above crossing the line to help launder money, though my guess is he would try and justify that by just saying all he did was help Walter and Skylar buy the business to launder the money, actually doing it was all up to them.

[Milburn Stone]

Poor Jimmy, that's his problem. Everyone (Kim, HHM, maybe even Chuck in a way) thinks they can do better than Jimmy.

 

Don't forget the Kettlemans.

[ToastnBacon]

I am on board with all the Jimmy love, and I found Saul entertaining and likeable.  But I disagree that he was only a little sleazy and gave the best possible legal advice.  I think there is no doubt that with his involvement with money laundering he was crossing the line from zealous representation of the client into participating in a criminal enterprise.  Given where/how he ended up, he pretty much miscalculated how much he could get away with.  He has already shown seeds of his criminal tendencies with the Kettlemans, though he course-corrected with putting the money back, but had already gotten Mike to steal the stolen money.  He has acted mostly ethically with his elderly clients, and been patient and kind with them.  He swings back and forth between doing the right thing and the wrong thing, and I guess he has since way back in his Chicago days.  But he's damn endearing even when doing sketchy things.

You make a number of good points about Saul being too comfortable on the wrong side of the law. Let's not forget how when we first met Saul in BB he had already had established Ice Station Zebra Associates to help launder his money. He was making his clients pay Ice Station Zebra with money orders to help obscure his revenue streams.

Also, once he was working with Walter and Jesse, his preferred method of dealing with Badger was a shanking in the chow line. It was Jesse who nixed that idea.

Saul will do the right thing when it is convenient, but all bets are off when his neck is on the line. Plus, his wounds and mental anguish always seem to be easily healed with a stack of cash.

That doesn't make me dislike Saul, but he is capable of doing horrible things in the blink of an eye.

[Ailianna]

I'm not sure why everyone seems to think Jimmy was popular at HHM. He was the mail boy and on his rounds, basically everyone he tried to interact with was on the phone and too busy to talk to him, they gave him little wave-offs and no one actually talked to him, no one actually had any meaningful interaction with him. It seemed like he was the somewhat annoying lackey whom no one really liked, but everyone just put up with as long as he was delivering mail and not getting too pushy about trying to be "friends."

[Starchild]

Also, once he was working with Walter and Jesse, his preferred method of dealing with Badger was a shanking in the chow line. It was Jesse who nixed that idea.

My fanwank for this at the moment is that between now and then he's been forced (somehow) to represent so many criminals that he's given up on making more reasonable recommendations and just goes straight to the ones he believes his clients are going to want, based on past experience. You know, for efficiency.