Well, It Says Right Here...: All That's Wrong With Grimm

[OtterMommy]

I kind of like it when Bitsie gets her Spanish on.  Her dialogue seems to flow better within the scenes somehow.

 

I never minded either--especially because it brought in Pilar, who was a very cool character.  I really wish they had used her more--maybe bring her in on the same level (i.e. how often we see her) as Bud.

 

I did, however, roll my eyes when Juliette's Spanish skills were shoehorned in by saying that the ONE translator in the Portland PD was on vacation and Juliette was the ONLY person they could have brought in.  I do think they could have massaged that whole thing so that they still could have brought Juliette in on case (that was the La Llorona episode) but not make it so contrived.

[OtterMommy]

I came across this article in my FB newsfeed this morning.  Grimm isn't mentioned (which is why I'm not posting it in the media thread), but it discusses how shows deal with pregnancies.  In short....Grimm had many, many options other than what they did (hot dog eating contest?  Wow...never thought of that one...)

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2016/02/10/how-tv-deals-with-actresses-pregnancies-from-i-love-lucy-to-new-girl/?tid=sm_fb

[ShadowFacts]

I don't think they knew about Juliette until Trubel spilled the beans at some point on the night that Juliette was supposedly killed (the way that ep went...she didn't know about Juliette until she was sitting around Bud's table with Bud, Adalind, Monroe, and Rosalee and she asked where Juliette was).  Now, that doesn't give her a heck of a lot of time to go to Chavez to tell her about Juliette, get whatever sedative they used in the crossbow (I'm assuming she was using Nick's crossbow) and get back to Nick's house just in the Nick of time (see what I did there? ha!).  Supposedly, she only had the time it took Nick to get from Bud's house to his (which is not that far, if I remember from season 1).  Also, Chavez didn't know that Nick was a Grimm until he nabbed her, which I guess means that Trubel kept that bit of information to herself to protect him?  And Meisner didn't seem to know who he was until he night that Trubel was in the hospital.

 

Either the viewers are being asked to accept something that doesn't quite make sense OR there is some piece of information that they are withholding from us.  If it is the latter--which should be a good thing--I don't think they are doing it well.  When that happens in books, TV, movies, etc...the audience should either know that there is more information out there OR not feel that they are missing anything.  Here, if that is really the case, the audience (er, some of the audience) is just left scratching their heads.

 

I am also hoping there's info we don't know yet.  For Trubel to find out the Juliette info and act on it that fast that Chavez could put a plan in motion, gives Trubel more clout for lack of a better word, than I think we have seen her have.  She seemed genuinely upset about Nick being drugged, and all of that.  I would find it equally unbelievable, though, that she already knew about Juliette and just faked it at Bud's. 

 

I also think it is odd that Meisner didn't know who Nick was -- he worked closely with Kelly.  I get that he was a mercenary and she might only give him info he needed to know, but with his work for the resistance, I would have thought he'd have that bit of intel.  Who knows.  I don't keep as close tabs on this as I have for other shows.  Either I'm outgrowing that, or this isn't that compelling.

[OtterMommy]

I am also hoping there's info we don't know yet.  For Trubel to find out the Juliette info and act on it that fast that Chavez could put a plan in motion, gives Trubel more clout for lack of a better word, than I think we have seen her have.  She seemed genuinely upset about Nick being drugged, and all of that.  I would find it equally unbelievable, though, that she already knew about Juliette and just faked it at Bud's. 

 

I also think it is odd that Meisner didn't know who Nick was -- he worked closely with Kelly.  I get that he was a mercenary and she might only give him info he needed to know, but with his work for the resistance, I would have thought he'd have that bit of intel.  Who knows.  I don't keep as close tabs on this as I have for other shows.  Either I'm outgrowing that, or this isn't that compelling.

 

Meisner actually didn't work closely with Kelly.  He only met her when he dropped Adalind off at the airfield and, at the time, he said he'd never seen her before and didn't know who she was.  Then, Kelly went to Portland and then off to wherever and Meisner went into hiding.  I suppose they could have reconnected at some point when they were both off the grid, but I don't think the show has given us any inkling of that.

 

The only possibility I can think of that can make sense is that Renard tipped off Meisner and/or Chavez about Juliette.  He's the only person who knew how powerful Juliette was AND had a connection, at least to Meisner (I don't think he had any connection with Chavez, but I could be wrong there).  I mean, if HW just wanted a hexenbiest, they would have grabbed Adalind.  They knew she was with the Royals and they knew she and the Royals were in Portland and, well, it seems like Meisner would have been open to more quality time with Adalind.  Plus, they could have easily gotten her to their side--all they had to do was dangle Diana in front of her.  But, instead, they went for Juliette--so they had to have known her circumstance.

[Darklazr]

Adalind obviously told Viktor and Kenneth that Juliette was a hexenbiest since she had her behind handed to her and even pumped Renard for information when she hopped into his car outside the coffee shop.  Let's not forget that Adalind visited Henriette and she probably learned more about Juliette's powers.

 

Once Viktor was sent packing by the King, it did not take him long to contact the Resistance and set up a plan to nab Diana in exchange for killing the King.

 

I think Viktor may have told the Resistance (Meisner) about Juliette's powers.  Meisner contacted Chavez and Chavez knew Nick and Juliette lived together which makes it silly that she had no idea Nick was a Grimm.

 

Truble asking about Juliette's whereabouts sounded like she was fishing for information.

 

Meisner would have seen Juliette when she carried Diana to the helicopter and could have contacted Chavez after he tossed the king out on his behind.

 

Hmmmmm.

 

There are a lot of plot holes on this show!

Edited February 16, 2016 by Darklazr

[OtterMommy]

Adalind obviously told Viktor and Kenneth that Juliette was a hexenbiest since she had her behind handed to her and even pumped Renard for information when she hopped into his car outside the coffee shop.  Let's not forget that Adalind visited Henriette and she probably learned more about Juliette's powers.

 

Once Viktor was sent packing by the King, it did not take him long to contact the Resistance and set up a plan to nab Diana in exchange for killing the King.

 

I think Viktor may have told the Resistance (Meisner) about Juliette's powers.  Meisner contacted Chavez and Chavez knew Nick and Juliette lived together which makes it silly that she had no idea Nick was a Grimm.

 

Truble asking about Juliette's whereabouts sounded like she was fishing for information.

 

Meisner would have seen Juliette when she carried Diana to the helicopter and could have contacted Chavez after he tossed the king out on his behind.

 

Hmmmmm.

 

There are a lot of plot holes on this show!

 

Adalind did tell Kenneth that Juliette was a hexenbiest, but very late in the game. And, remember, it was Viktor who sent Meisner out to kill the king--and that whole thing makes absolutely no sense--so he would never have known that Juliette was a hexenbiest.  I mean, I don't think Viktor would have struck a deal with Meisner without expecting Diana to be handed over and I'm almost certain that Meisner wouldn't let Diana anywhere near him.  I will agree that Trubel could have been fishing for information (JT's acting isn't *that* great, so I can't really tell what her motivation was in that scene), but Meisner wouldn't have had a clue who Juliette was, so seeing her with the King wouldn't have been enough.  I mean, he probably figured out that she was not on the up and up--but he wouldn't have known that she was Nick's girlfriend or that she lived with Nick...and he was in the helicopter, so he very well couldn't have followed her.

 

Yeah...you could play whack-a-mole with the plot holes on this show.

[Prevailing Wind]

 

Either I'm outgrowing that, or this isn't that compelling.

I vote for both.

[Darklazr]

Adalind's fight with Juliette took place not long after she and Viktor came back to town.  There were scenes of Adalind with Renard where she was pumping him for information that Nick had his powers back since Juliette was a hexenbiest.  "I" would like to think Adalind ran her mouth off to Viktor who in turn told the King and then we have Kenneth informed on the happenings now that he's in the mix that Juliette is a made hexenbiest.  Eh.  

 

Yes, there are lots of plot holes! 

[OtterMommy]

Adalind's fight with Juliette took place not long after she and Viktor came back to town.  There were scenes of Adalind with Renard where she was pumping him for information that Nick had his powers back since Juliette was a hexenbiest.  "I" would like to think Adalind ran her mouth off to Viktor who in turn told the King and then we have Kenneth informed on the happenings now that he's in the mix that Juliette is a made hexenbiest.  Eh.  

 

Yes, there are lots of plot holes! 

 

Well, she could have told him, but I doubt it.  When Kenneth showed up (after Viktor was sent back to Austria), Rispoli or whatever the Billy Zane's guy name was did NOT know that Nick was Grimm again and Juliette was a hexenbiest.  Once Kenneth found out (the same time Rispoli found out), he pretty much dumped Adalind and went in search of Juliette (which is one more reason why I don't think she'd tell Viktor.  She knew Viktor was just using her--and the fact she was still working with him says A LOT about Adalind--and she knew that if Viktor knew there was someone more powerful, he'd get rid of Adalind and use Juliette instead).

 

It's almost like there is this one piece of the puzzle missing that would explain it all--but, then, I don't think there is any way the can explain all these holes in a coherent way, so....

[OtterMommy]

From the spoiler thread...

 

Nick is horny and there really is no difference between Adalind and Juliette!

 

Truth!

 

I mean, if we didn't get the fact that this show doesn't have respect for women in the past 4 years, this is the proof.   We have had:

1- Adalind and Juliette needing to switch bodies so that a guy could sleep with them

2 - Adalind, Juliette, and maybe Trubel all being beaten (psychologically or physically) into submission by men

3 - Adalind raping men willy nilly

4 - Adalind, basically selling her soul, to men over and over again

5 - Making Juliette "strong" by turning her into a batshit crazy witch

6 - Making Juliette "strong" by turning her into a robot

7 - Making Adalind "nice" by locking her in a factory with a baby so she can sit at home and wait for a man

 

It's true--there is no difference between Adalind or Juliette--they are both just basically placeholders for men to move around.

[Dobian]

Adalind is the worst used character on the show.  She started out as a fun villain and foil for Nick.  Then they turned her into a damsel in distress locked away in a fake castle in fake Austria.  Now she's a powerless and docile baby mommy locked away in a warehouse.  Do the writers have any plans to actually give Adalind something to do other than to ask Nick how Grimmy his day was?

[Darklazr]

From the spoiler thread...

 

 

Truth!

 

I mean, if we didn't get the fact that this show doesn't have respect for women in the past 4 years, this is the proof.   We have had:

1- Adalind and Juliette needing to switch bodies so that a guy could sleep with them

2 - Adalind, Juliette, and maybe Trubel all being beaten (psychologically or physically) into submission by men

3 - Adalind raping men willy nilly

4 - Adalind, basically selling her soul, to men over and over again

5 - Making Juliette "strong" by turning her into a batshit crazy witch

6 - Making Juliette "strong" by turning her into a robot

7 - Making Adalind "nice" by locking her in a factory with a baby so she can sit at home and wait for a man

 

It's true--there is no difference between Adalind or Juliette--they are both just basically placeholders for men to move around.

 

Preach!  Adalind and Juliette are basically Sister Wives for Nick and Renard and it's all rather soapy / slutty!

[tpel]

ITA!!!  A male viewing companion remarked to me that, if the writers decide not to continue with the Nick/Adalind relationship, now maybe Trubel is old enough to date Nick. My response was, "Yeah, because clearly all female characters are interchangeable!" Ugh! My companion was aware enough to sort of get why Nick/Adalind is gross, but not to get the deeper problem that, with few exceptions, the writers don't seem to know what to do with female characters and treat them like chess pieces to fill plot holes rather than like people with personalities.

 

Considering the above, it is odd that much of the fanservice on the show seems to be aimed at women. The straight women and gay men in the audience get eye-candy in the form of shirtless Renard and Meisner. It is hard to recall similar eye-candy moments featuring the female form, though I assume it has come up now and then.

[Prevailing Wind]

Well, there was Adalind in that ugly-ass bra in her hotel room...

[Darklazr]

Well, there was Adalind in that ugly-ass bra in her hotel room...

 

And those ugly black panties....

ITA!!!  A male viewing companion remarked to me that, if the writers decide not to continue with the Nick/Adalind relationship, now maybe Trubel is old enough to date Nick. My response was, "Yeah, because clearly all female characters are interchangeable!" Ugh! My companion was aware enough to sort of get why Nick/Adalind is gross, but not to get the deeper problem that, with few exceptions, the writers don't seem to know what to do with female characters and treat them like chess pieces to fill plot holes rather than like people with personalities.

 

Considering the above, it is odd that much of the fanservice on the show seems to be aimed at women. The straight women and gay men in the audience get eye-candy in the form of shirtless Renard and Meisner. It is hard to recall similar eye-candy moments featuring the female form, though I assume it has come up now and then.

 

LOL.  The women on the show really don't do any of the usual bra and skimpy panties etc... that you normally see on TV shows and I hope to never see Juliette without her clothes on, ever!

[icewolf]

The whole Nick/Adalind romance feels like a Nadlind fangirl muscled her way into the writing room and forced the showrunners to accept her badly written fan fiction romance. It's like watching a slow car crash that you can't look away from. It is too bizarre for me to take seriously, so I'm treating as parody of a cheap supermarket paperback romance, which is the only way I can handle it at this point.

[Darklazr]

The whole Nick/Adalind romance feels like a Nadlind fangirl muscled her way into the writing room and forced the showrunners to accept her badly written fan fiction romance. It's like watching a slow car crash that you can't look away from. It is too bizarre for me to take seriously, so I'm treating as parody of a cheap supermarket paperback romance, which is the only way I can handle it at this point.

 

I think the writers know exactly what their doing in writing for Nadalind, because the special snowflake is being written as helping fight the big bad Black Craw members and we will eventually see special snowflake and Nick reconcile.  Blech.  

[OtterMommy]

From the 512 thread:

 

I forgot to mention I am not feeling Adalind's sadness that she's getting her powers back.  I think she sincerely feels bad, but I'm not buying it story-wise.  She feels all icky and just wants to be a nerdy lawyer--well, she did a lot of gross things when she was not a hexenbiest before.  And wanted badly to re-hexen herself.  I know people change, but this just feels too retconny to me.  It seems like they're saying she was not fully responsible for all the stuff she did before, it really wasn't the real her.  You know, like where they are probably heading with Juliette.

 

 

Ah, and here is a perfect example of what I think the biggest problem the creative team has with this show.  

 

I understand that, with a TV show, you usually don't know how long it is going to air and you kind of have to make up the framework as we go.  I get that.  However, I also believe that the creators should have sat down when they were writing the pilot and put together the "rules" of the show.  Above is a perfect example where the viewers have to deal with the lack of any sort of universal law.

 

• What is a hexenbiest.  Are Adalind and Juliette hexenbiests, or do they have hexenbiests?
• Does being or having a hexenbiest make you a bad person?  The show is really trying to go all directions at once here.  We had Adalind, who for the equivalent of an entire season was not a hexenbiest and she was at her most evil.  Then, she's a suppressed hexenbiest, and she's supposedly good?  At the same time, they took a "good" character and made her evil, only because she was "embracing" her hexenbiest.  And now she's--well, she's dangerous, but we don't yet know if she's good or bad.  They've changed directions so much on this point that I don't think anyone knows which way is up.
• So, how exactly do you "cure" a hexenbiest?  They've given us one way, then said it wouldn't work (with a rather flimsy excuse), and now we're presented with the situation again.
• So, how exactly do you "make" a hexenbiest?  Is it some magic spell, or is it sex with a Grimm.  I think the show, from what people have described is trying to insinuate that having sex with your rapist either makes you not a Grimm or makes her a hexenbiest.  The latter doesn't quite work out because, with Juliette, she had to take the bong hit off the magic hat, not Nick.  So, saying that Adalind is going to have the exact same result, even though she didn't take the hit, makes no sense.  Of course, if it means that it will de-Grimm Nick (again), maybe that also means that Nick and Adalind are done doing the nasty?  One can only hope.
• Are hexenbiests actually wesen?  That's nothing to do with what is happening in this show...I just want to know!

 

Of course, this is not the only plot point where things fall apart.  Exactly what powers does a Grimm have? Just being able to see wesen or something else?  Exactly what is a zauberbiest?  We were told they were male hexenbiests...then we were told that they weren't.  Considering one of the major characters of this show is a zauberbiest, shouldn't the creative team have figured that out?

 

I mean, I understand that things change and, even if the creative team had actually thought past the first 3 episodes, they still might have needed to alter somethings.  Fine--that's one thing.  It is a completely different thing to throw away everything you have already presented to the audience because you just don't want things to work like that anymore.

[bluvelvet]

I don't know where else to ask this, why did having sex with Adalind make Nick lose his Grimm powers? On the flip side why did having sex with Juliette bring them back ? Does having sex with a hexenbiest make a Grimm lose his powers because if that was the case then he and Juliette wouldn't have been above to continue their relationship even if she had given him time to adjust.

[tpel]

Yeah, the lack of (metaphysical and moral) clarity makes me crazy, too. Here is what I've surmised about hexenbiests, though I'm not sure it is correct:

 

Hexenbiests give birth to female hexenbiests and male zauberbiests. They are not obviously biestey at birth, but at some point -- maybe adolescence -- the biest emerges. I don't think we've ever been told this, specifically, but baby Diana never woged (unless we count glowing purple eyes), and nobody seemed to expect her to, and other wesen seem to start woging in childhood or early adolescence.

 

Whether or not they are technically wesen, hexenbiests are clearly not like other wesen in at least one crucial way: you can de-biest a hexenbiest, but you can't de-blutbad a blutbad -- the latter would be like de-humaning a human or de-catting a cat, it just doesn't make sense. When Nick stripped Adalind of her powers, we saw a spirit-like entity rise out of her. This gives credence to the idea that one has a hexenbiest within one, rather than that one is a hexenbiest, or that perhaps 'hexenbiest' is a name for a compound entity. While losing her 'biest was apparently psychologically traumatic for Adalind, her personality did not change much.

 

Are hexenbiests bad? I think, early on, there were notes about the show that indicated that hexenbiests were considered untrustworthy by other wesen. Most of the hexenbiests we've met were kind of bad, but to different degrees. Renard's mother actually seems pretty decent. Since "bad" may be hard to get a handle on, maybe a related question would be, are they sociopathic? Can they genuinely care about others or is it all just manipulation? I have a wholly unsubstantiated theory that childbirth is key. If they didn't care for their own children, at least when they are very young, the species would die out. So they do. Thus, we have Adalind, who conceived Diana in order to sell her, bonding deeply with her daughter. How long this bond would last is hard to say. Adalind's own mother dropped her like a hot potato when she lost her powers, showing that the parental bond can be fragile, but Renard's mother still loves him and cares about the welfare of her granddaughter. I think that not only can hexenbiests bond with their own children, but they also bond with people who are with them at the time of the birth. Thus, Adalind bonded with Meisner, and then later with Nick. Maybe they are genetically programmed to seek protection for their offspring, or maybe this is just a vulnerable time for them when their emotions are more intense. How long does it last? No idea. We've never heard of a hexenbiest in a long-term relationship, have we?

 

Speaking of offspring, is Diana a monster-to-be in the guise of a cute little girl? 

Edited March 13, 2016 by tpel

[orza]

I don't know where else to ask this, why did having sex with Adalind make Nick lose his Grimm powers? On the flip side why did having sex with Juliette bring them back ? Does having sex with a hexenbiest make a Grimm lose his powers because if that was the case then he and Juliette wouldn't have been above to continue their relationship even if she had given him time to adjust.

No, Adalind took away Nick's Grimm power by first making a nasty potion, consuming it, then having sex with Nick while glamored as Juliette. Juliette also had to drink something nasty before having sex with Nick while glamored as Adalind so he could get his Grimm power back. The potion seems to be key in affecting a Grimm's.power. Apparently, sexual contact is just the delivery mechanism, like with sexually transmitted viral infections.

[Prevailing Wind]

I think we can pretty much declare it as official - we think more about this show than the writers do, AND come up with WAY better mechanics/solutions to problems presented.  TPTB really need to peruse this thread, if not the entire forum if they're seeking ways to save the show from the quagmire it's become.

[bluvelvet]

No, Adalind took away Nick's Grimm power by first making a nasty potion, consuming it, then having sex with Nick while glamored as Juliette. Juliette also had to drink something nasty before having sex with Nick while glamored as Adalind so he could get his Grimm power back. The potion seems to be key in affecting a Grimm's.power. Apparently, sexual contact is just the delivery mechanism, like with sexually transmitted viral infections.

Thanks. I didn't watch seasons 3 and 4 hence my questions. Sorry I just have one more, if it's the potion why did Juliette have to switch to Adalind for sex? Or did they have to recreate the conditions of the first spell ?

I don't think all hexenbiests are evil, I assume there's a bunch out there living their respective lives not involved anything covert or evil plots. Catherine seemed to care about Adalind until she lost her biest.

Edited March 13, 2016 by bluvelvet

[OtterMommy]

Thanks. I didn't watch seasons 3 and 4 hence my questions. Sorry I just have one more, if it's the potion why did Juliette have to switch to Adalind for sex? Or did they have to recreate the conditions of the first spell ?

I don't think all hexenbiests are evil, I assume there's a bunch out there living their respective lives not involved anything covert or evil plots. Catherine seemed to care about Adalind until she lost her biest.

 

The spell never made much sense.  It was first insinuated that Adalind only had to sleep with Nick to de-Grimm him and the potion was just polyjuice potion to look like Juliette.  Then Elizabeth came on the scene (who I do not think was as benevolent as others might believe....) and she said that it was very dark magic and insinuated that the potion itself was what de-Grimmed Nick and they had to reverse it.  In either case, the potion is no longer in play now...SO if they are trying to say that Nick has mean hexen-making swimmers, it just doesn't make sense at all.

 

Also, for the record, there is a certain kind of show that has things like magic sex.  It's not a bad kind of show--in fact, it can be quite good.  But it is not Grimm.  Grimm has been a show where the non-magic world is juxtaposed against the magical...not one where people are controlled by their basest urges.  Once again, they've switched boats in the middle of the river on this one, screwing (pun not intended) things up yet again.  While there is a part of me that would like this show to fix what's wrong and get back on track, I just don't think that's possible anymore.  It would be a mercy at this point to put it out of its misery.

[ShadowFacts]

 

Also, for the record, there is a certain kind of show that has things like magic sex.  It's not a bad kind of show--in fact, it can be quite good.  But it is not Grimm.  Grimm has been a show where the non-magic world is juxtaposed against the magical...not one where people are controlled by their basest urges.  Once again, they've switched boats in the middle of the river on this one, screwing (pun not intended) things up yet again.  While there is a part of me that would like this show to fix what's wrong and get back on track, I just don't think that's possible anymore.  It would be a mercy at this point to put it out of its misery.

 

Wow, you said that so well.  That is what happened in a nutshell.  It all started with the infernal Adaland de-Grimming Nick and the way it all played out has wrecked the show  I don't read fanfiction so I don't know what creative fan alternatives are out there, there may be some that could fix the trainwreck but my imagination doesn't see much hope. 

[OtterMommy]

Wow, you said that so well.  That is what happened in a nutshell.  It all started with the infernal Adaland de-Grimming Nick and the way it all played out has wrecked the show  I don't read fanfiction so I don't know what creative fan alternatives are out there, there may be some that could fix the trainwreck but my imagination doesn't see much hope. 

 

I once ventured over to FanFiction.net (did you know that there is, and I am not making this up, Fan Fiction for Meerkat Manor???).  It was after season 4 ended and I was...curious.

 

In case you are wondering, most of the fan fiction fell into 3 categories for this show:

1 - Nick and Renard get it on

2- Nick and Monroe get it on

3 - Pretty much everything that has happened in season 5.

[bluvelvet]

I once ventured over to FanFiction.net (did you know that there is, and I am not making this up, Fan Fiction for Meerkat Manor???). It was after season 4 ended and I was...curious.

In case you are wondering, most of the fan fiction fell into 3 categories for this show:

1 - Nick and Renard get it on

2- Nick and Monroe get it on

3 - Pretty much everything that has happened in season 5.

Not to go off topic but.. "WHAT"... Meerkat manor ?...interesting

I assume as season 5 goes on we will learn more about the exact nature of hexenbiest since 2 or the main female characters now carry that title.

[OtterMommy]

From the 512 thread:

 

Adalind told Nick in Renard's office that the potion would suppress the special snowflakes power, but I don't remember anything about it being temporary.

 

Right, she never mentioned that it would be temporary.  Of course, that would totally defeat the purpose.  What good what it do Nick and Juliette if it were temporary?   Adalind did use language to imply that it would be permanent--specifically, it would allow Juliette to "live a normal life" (which wouldn't really be possible if it were a temporary thing...).  Also, if you go back and watch the scenes with Adalind, Monroe, and Rosalee as they are making the potion it is never mentioned that the suppression would be temporary.  Then, all of a sudden, Adalind and Rosalee are talking about it being temporary...even though that was NEVER brought up before that scene.

 

I just wonder...how dumb do they writers think the viewers are?  With all the plot holes, retcons, questionable plots, etc.... 

Edited March 13, 2016 by OtterMommy

[ShadowFacts]

I once ventured over to FanFiction.net (did you know that there is, and I am not making this up, Fan Fiction for Meerkat Manor???).  It was after season 4 ended and I was...curious.

 

In case you are wondering, most of the fan fiction fell into 3 categories for this show:

1 - Nick and Renard get it on

2- Nick and Monroe get it on

3 - Pretty much everything that has happened in season 5.

I'm noticing a void there, there's no Nick and Hank, or Hank and Wu. 

[OtterMommy]

I'm noticing a void there, there's no Nick and Hank, or Hank and Wu. 

 

Yeah, they don't show up much (or at least didn't last summer....who knows now...).  However, I think that goes back to the show.  Neither character is really used as more than a prop for Nick.  And, frankly, I don't get it.  When they do give Hank something to do, Russell Hornsby does a great job with it.  And the Aswang episode was one of the best of the series and it showed that Reggie Lee can do more than just spout quips.  I really wish they wouldn't waste these two actors...

 

But, if the show has no interest in them, why would the fans who write FanFic?

Edited March 14, 2016 by OtterMommy

[OtterMommy]

From the 512 thread...

 

But if Adalind is working a long con, that means these writers planned ahead.  (Excuse me, while I go laugh uproariously at the thought of Grimm writers planning anything but lunch.)

 

Even if the writers plan something out, it doesn't mean anything...they will just change it!  I mean, they supposedly had season 4 completely mapped out the summer of 2015...and then tossed it all out the window when they realized they could act out their baby fetish.  That's my fear with this season...they are trying to keep the ratings up, so they're going by whatever is being said on twitter and facebook.  However, as we've seen, the ratings tend to run contrary to that.  (Also, in my experience from this and other shows, many if not most fans who are "loud" on facebook and twitter tend to be VERY fickle.  If you go back a year, you'll see the same people who are fanwanking Nadalind now hoping that Nick and Juliette can work out their differences....)

 

As much as I can't stand Katherine Heigl, I kind of wish she was on this show...just so we would know the exact variety of crap that was going on.

[spaulding]

Are hexenbiests bad? I think, early on, there were notes about the show that indicated that hexenbiests were considered untrustworthy by other wesen. Most of the hexenbiests we've met were kind of bad, but to different degrees. Renard's mother actually seems pretty decent.

 

 

I wish that the writers explained more about Grimms and wesen.  Esp. the wesen that are regularly used on the show, e.g., hexenbiests, blutbad.  If Grimms and wesen were given a detailed background, the writers wouldn't be scrambling every week to decide what to do. 

 

Fans of any show care about the details. 

 

Yeah, they don't show up much (or at least didn't last summer....who knows now...).  However, I think that goes back to the show.  Neither character is really used as more than a prop for Nick.  And, frankly, I don't get it.  When they do give Hank something to do, Russell Hornsby does a great job with it.  And the Aswang episode was one of the best of the series and it showed that Reggie Lee can do more than just spout quips.  I really wish they wouldn't waste these two actors...

 

Hank is my favorite character, and I like that he has a calm effect on Nick.  He's the one who says to step back and to think about a plan, about the consequences, etc. 

 

I wish that the show had some Hank- or Wu-centric episodes.  I wouldn't mind an episode from the viewpoint of wesen.  Why are they scared of Grimms?  Maybe Grimms really are the bad guys.  (They aren't the good guys, really.)

 

Even if the writers plan something out, it doesn't mean anything...they will just change it!  I mean, they supposedly had season 4 completely mapped out the summer of 2015...and then tossed it all out the window when they realized they could act out their baby fetish.  That's my fear with this season...they are trying to keep the ratings up, so they're going by whatever is being said on twitter and facebook.

 

Who's in charge of this show?  I feel like it's a runaway car, and somebody's asleep at the wheel.  At some point, the writers and showrunners had to have a big meeting to discuss what to do.  This season is a rehash of stuff they already tried, e.g., Adalind gets her powers back, her second pregnancy. 

 

The writers don't know what to do now.  I don't mind if they dropped storylines like the Keys and babies if they focused on what worked.  Right now, they care about the Keys because it was a big deal for Grimm 100. 

 

And about Nick's angsty love life, which is driving this show.  Maybe that's the problem.  This show is, really, about wesen, which is why it works as a procedural.  Nick is used to highlight the various good/bad wesen.  Now, this show focuses on Nick and is reduced to his angsty life--Mama Grimm, girlfriends, the consequences of being a Grimm, etc.

[ShadowFacts]

I wish that the writers explained more about Grimms and wesen.  Esp. the wesen that are regularly used on the show, e.g., hexenbiests, blutbad.  If Grimms and wesen were given a detailed background, the writers wouldn't be scrambling every week to decide what to do. 

 

Fans of any show care about the details. 

 

 

Hank is my favorite character, and I like that he has a calm effect on Nick.  He's the one who says to step back and to think about a plan, about the consequences, etc. 

 

I wish that the show had some Hank- or Wu-centric episodes.  I wouldn't mind an episode from the viewpoint of wesen.  Why are they scared of Grimms?  Maybe Grimms really are the bad guys.  (They aren't the good guys, really.)

 

 

Who's in charge of this show?  I feel like it's a runaway car, and somebody's asleep at the wheel.  At some point, the writers and showrunners had to have a big meeting to discuss what to do.  This season is a rehash of stuff they already tried, e.g., Adalind gets her powers back, her second pregnancy. 

 

The writers don't know what to do now.  I don't mind if they dropped storylines like the Keys and babies if they focused on what worked.  Right now, they care about the Keys because it was a big deal for Grimm 100. 

 

And about Nick's angsty love life, which is driving this show.  Maybe that's the problem.  This show is, really, about wesen, which is why it works as a procedural.  Nick is used to highlight the various good/bad wesen.  Now, this show focuses on Nick and is reduced to his angsty life--Mama Grimm, girlfriends, the consequences of being a Grimm, etc.

 

I agree with all of those points.  Especially that Nick's sex life should always have been on the back burner, and that they're so unoriginal as to retread Adalind's pregnancy and hexenation.  Revisiting past wesen we've met and fleshing out their stories would be better than what we're getting now.  Where's Bud?  How are the eisbiebers reacting to the 'uprising'?

 

Hank is my favorite, too, and I've always thought he was smarter than his partner.  If they gave him much more material I fear it would also be of the romance variety which they might mess up.  Back in the second or so season they had him encounter someone from high school who turned out to be wesen, so he is apparently from the area and they could work some more of that in.  Same with Wu.  I wish they would instead of all this Nick drama.  I know he is the Grimm, but he's gone kind of stupid and annoying.  I used to like him quite a bit.

[iMonrey]

It's astounding to me that Nick (and to a lesser extent, Trubel) seems so blase about the fact that Hadrian's Wall kidnapped Juliette and brainwashed her into becoming a robotic killing machine. He just seems kind of baffled and has moved onto other things. You'd think he'd be more focused on maybe trying to get her away from the people who kidnapped and brainwashed her and trying to de-program her, you know? That's the main problem with trying to "re-imagine" Juliette as an entirely new character. I find it hard to believe everyone who knew her would just sort of shrug their shoulders over the whole thing and move on.

[Darklazr]

I agree with all of those points.  Especially that Nick's sex life should always have been on the back burner, and that they're so unoriginal as to retread Adalind's pregnancy and hexenation.  Revisiting past wesen we've met and fleshing out their stories would be better than what we're getting now.  Where's Bud?  How are the eisbiebers reacting to the 'uprising'?

 

Hank is my favorite, too, and I've always thought he was smarter than his partner.  If they gave him much more material I fear it would also be of the romance variety which they might mess up.  Back in the second or so season they had him encounter someone from high school who turned out to be wesen, so he is apparently from the area and they could work some more of that in.  Same with Wu.  I wish they would instead of all this Nick drama.  I know he is the Grimm, but he's gone kind of stupid and annoying.  I used to like him quite a bit.

 

This!  This is why the special snowflake should have remained in the background with occasional glimpses of Nick's private life.  I want my show back and no freaking babies, except for Monroe and Rosalie right before the series goes off the air.

[Darklazr]

It's astounding to me that Nick (and to a lesser extent, Trubel) seems so blase about the fact that Hadrian's Wall kidnapped Juliette and brainwashed her into becoming a robotic killing machine. He just seems kind of baffled and has moved onto other things. You'd think he'd be more focused on maybe trying to get her away from the people who kidnapped and brainwashed her and trying to de-program her, you know? That's the main problem with trying to "re-imagine" Juliette as an entirely new character. I find it hard to believe everyone who knew her would just sort of shrug their shoulders over the whole thing and move on.

 

Hank, Monroe and Rosalie were done with Juliette when she tried to kill Monroe at the Spice Shop.

 

Wu was hoping Juliette would come around.

 

Nick lost his freaking balls and really needed to be bitch slapped repeatedly once Juliette died.

 

The special snowflake (IMO) should have died never to be seen after she set up Momma Grimm and Nick's neighbors to be killed and burned down the Grimmabago.

[OtterMommy]

It's astounding to me that Nick (and to a lesser extent, Trubel) seems so blase about the fact that Hadrian's Wall kidnapped Juliette and brainwashed her into becoming a robotic killing machine. He just seems kind of baffled and has moved onto other things. You'd think he'd be more focused on maybe trying to get her away from the people who kidnapped and brainwashed her and trying to de-program her, you know? That's the main problem with trying to "re-imagine" Juliette as an entirely new character. I find it hard to believe everyone who knew her would just sort of shrug their shoulders over the whole thing and move on.

 

THIS!!!

 

Especially when there was that actually incredibly well-acted scene in the first episode where Nick thinks he hears Juliette's voice and nearly has a breakdown...

 

All I can think of to explain all this is hexen mind control...but, as it was said, it doesn't quite look like Adalind was running a long con after all.  Well, at least as far as Claire Coffee knows.  But, really, that can be the only logical explanation for Nick's actions....

[icewolf]

Let's get something off my chest.

I still think season 1 is still the BEST GRIMM season.

It was shot like a fairy tale, everything was so colorful, I mean just look at the visuals of the first two episodes and the scene at night of Juliette vising Nick in the trailer while he is going over the Grimm books. Beautiful.

The episodes were still mostly inspired by fairy tales with the Wesen, instead of the generic crime of the weeks nowadays.

Nick was still a rookie Grimm and learning things as he went along, which made his mistakes and screwups more forgivable. Not anymore.

It made the best use of Silas Weir Mitchell, since the rest of the cast didn't know what they were doing, he really took over the Monroe role. We had the most Nick and Monroe teamups, frankly I think the show lost something the more and more people around Nick discovered he was a Grimm. I think if the entire show had just centered on Nick solving cases with his wacky Wesen sidekick and less on Nick's personal life, that would still be as awesome.

It has been stated countless times before, but Renard was just better as the shady character instead of Nick's current boring always on the phone ally.

Adalind was still a badass, a screw up but still an entertaining badass. There were still no babies in her life, thank god. The show truely jumped the shark when the writers decided to make her pregnant a second time. Did they purposely ignore how much the first pregnancy was hated by such a large number of Grimm fans?

Juliette was still the girlfriend in a rightfully supporting role, instead of taking over the entire show. They character assassinated the character in S4 by making her do terrible things like burning the trailer and setting up Nick's mother for death, and maybe didn't expect it to get so out of hand, so they were forced bring BT back as a new character in a storyline that doesn't even make any sense and wildly unGrimm. This Black Claw mess feels like that failure Initiative storyline from S4 of Buffy.

Most of all, the show in S1 felt like an underdog with the writers knowing that they could be canceled at any moment, so they were fighting to prove themselves. Now? It feels like the writers throwing anything at a wall hoping something will stick, how else can we explain the Nadalind and Eve mess?

Edited March 16, 2016 by icewolf

[Actionmage]

I find it hard to believe everyone who knew her would just sort of shrug their shoulders over the whole thing and move on.

 

No one outside the gang has come looking to Nick for an explanation of where the eff is Juliet. That is just unreal, even for this show. The same show that scrounged up three women to whatever at S2 Amnesia Juliet and never be seen or heard from again. I expect that the wesen college friend figures that the Grimm went rogue and is staying off his radar/memory. 

 

If I was a non-looped in friend of Juliet's, I'd file a complaint with Portland PD, citing my fear that my missing friend was missing due to her unstable cop boyfriend.  Not that that fact would be followed up on. Just like the Feds haven't followed up on poor dead Agent Chavez.

 

 

added: Disappointed to see on IMDB that only two women directors and one woman writer has been used this season. ( Brenna Kouf and Hanelle M. Culpepper for "Maiden Quest"[5.04] and Darnell Martin for "Wesen Nacht" [5.6].)  More ladies being utilized in the writers room might have found a way around the ick factor of the Nick-Adalind stuff, if possible, and also maybe strengthened the Adalind storyline. I mean, if you are going to go ahead and use Adalind, maybe do it smarter than what the first dozen episodes have shown us?)

Edited March 16, 2016 by Actionmage

[OtterMommy]

So, maybe I am making too much of things, but I was wondering. 

 

I think that they are filming 522 now, or are just about to, and that's the last episode of the season.  Doesn't it seem a bit early for that?  Last year, they finished up in the last part of April--as I think they did for all the other seasons.  Now they're finishing a month early?  The rational part of me is sure there is a reason for this (trying to film around summer projects the actors might have, for example...) but the illogical part of me thinks it is a little fishy....

If I was a non-looped in friend of Juliet's, I'd file a complaint with Portland PD, citing my fear that my missing friend was missing due to her unstable cop boyfriend.  Not that that fact would be followed up on. Just like the Feds haven't followed up on poor dead Agent Chavez.

 

Yeah...especially since we know that at least 2 of Juliette's "pre-Nick" friends ended up being Wesen (the one who had the abusive boyfriend back in season 3 and then there was the web series where another one turned out to be a Ziegevolk) and at least one of them knows that her boyfriend is a Grimm.

 

But, I guess we have to give the PDX PD a break...they are STILL trying to find Thomas Schirach.

[icewolf]

Anyone else REALLY miss the Nick/Juliette house from S1-4? Maybe a ton of bad stuff went down there, but after having that as a setting for four years it felt like home. Now we have that ugly as hell factory that Nick lives at.

 

Thank god we still have Monroe's house and the Spice Shop. Funny thing how Nick/Juliette was the stable relationship that the writers torched to the ground, while Monore/Rosalee are the well developed romance that had endured for so long now. I'm going to raise some hell if the writers mess that up by the end of this season, it is still the only thing they haven't screwed up yet. I've already decided to never rewatch season 4b ever again. The second pregnancy and HexenJuliette were clear shark jumping moments to me, they really messed up the show.

[OtterMommy]

Anyone else REALLY miss the Nick/Juliette house from S1-4? Maybe a ton of bad stuff went down there, but after having that as a setting for four years it felt like home. Now we have that ugly as hell factory that Nick lives at.

 

I miss it...but I'm also glad that he's not living there with Adalind.

 

I am a book blogger and I spend a good deal of time critically reading so that I can write reviews.  If this were a book, written by a capable writer, my thought process would be something like this:

 

Nick had a good life with Juliette, living in this beautiful house.  Some bad things went down, but the house--which could symbolize their relationship--was always repaired.  Adalind came in and committed a horrible betrayal by stealing Juliette's physical identity and raping Nick.  When Juliette left the house (relationship), the worst betrayal happened when Juliette played a part in Kelly's beheading.  

 

Then, the house was inexplicably cleaned again with all evidence removed and Nick tried to move Adalind into it.  That didn't work and, instead, he moved with her into a dank, dark space where the only modern comfort is a high tech security system to keep people out.  What would you call that?  A prison, maybe?  Now that Nick is inviting his friends into that space, he is unwittingly inviting them into his own personal prison.  I would expect this to lead the plot to a place where Nick either has to break out of his own prison, or someone would have to go break him out.

 

Then I think, crap....this is Grimm and the Grimm writers.  They just didn't want to pay the owners of the house for filming rights....

[icewolf]

Then I think, crap....this is Grimm and the Grimm writers.  They just didn't want to pay the owners of the house for filming rights....

The writers had the trailer burned because they didn't want the crew to have to go to the forest to film the trailer scenes didn't they?

[orza]

It's not a question of not wanting to. Writers have not say in the budget. The network controls that. The show is a business and has to deal with rising costs and budget constraints just like any other business by economizing where they can. Maintaining the trailer was probably deemed an expense that could no longer be justified. They had to pay for storage of the trailer and then every time they needed to film someone entering or exiting the trailer they had to take half a day to trek out to a location with a sizable entourage to film what would amount to maybe 20 seconds of finished product. And they still had to maintain a set of the interior of the trailer in the studio for the bulk of the trailer scenes. It is more cost-effective to build a set of the spice shop basement and eliminate the location filming altogether.

[icewolf]

It's not a question of not wanting to. Writers have not say in the budget. The network controls that. The show is a business and has to deal with rising costs and budget constraints just like any other business by economizing where they can. Maintaining the trailer was probably deemed an expense that could no longer be justified. They had to pay for storage of the trailer and then every time they needed to film someone entering or exiting the trailer they had to take half a day to trek out to a location with a sizable entourage to film what would amount to maybe 20 seconds of finished product. And they still had to maintain a set of the interior of the trailer in the studio for the bulk of the trailer scenes. It is more cost-effective to build a set of the spice shop basement and eliminate the location filming altogether.

Even if the writers were asked to get rid of the trailer scenes, they botched the storyline.

 

Burning the trailer hurt the ratings, we can see how much they fell after that episode. They could have had Nick decide to move all this books and gear to the shop instead of having most of it destroyed first. Many people cared about the trailer and everything that was inside more than Juliette.

 

The writers might have released their mistake and brought in those new Grimm books this season for Nick.

Edited March 17, 2016 by icewolf

[ShadowFacts]

I don't think Nick could ever live in the house again after his mother was killed there.  So it makes good sense to move out, but I question his choice of a so-called safe place.  Whatever money was saved from not having to pay the real life owners should have been put toward keeping the Grimmbago, because c'mon, all that accumulated history has not been replaced by Monroe's uncle's trove.  That was just a big fat mistake to burn it down. 

[Darklazr]

It's not a question of not wanting to. Writers have not say in the budget. The network controls that. The show is a business and has to deal with rising costs and budget constraints just like any other business by economizing where they can. Maintaining the trailer was probably deemed an expense that could no longer be justified. They had to pay for storage of the trailer and then every time they needed to film someone entering or exiting the trailer they had to take half a day to trek out to a location with a sizable entourage to film what would amount to maybe 20 seconds of finished product. And they still had to maintain a set of the interior of the trailer in the studio for the bulk of the trailer scenes. It is more cost-effective to build a set of the spice shop basement and eliminate the location filming altogether.

 

Why not block tape several scenes/episodes of the team entering and exiting the trailer if they needed to save money or just kill off Juliette and use the money for to keep the Grimmabago!

[iMonrey]

Unless someone knows something I don't know, I doubt whether budget issues were involved in the decision to burn the trailer. At the time, my perception was that it was an attempt to really kill any residual love for Juliette the audience might have had at that point. Short of killing Monroe, Rosalee, Hank or Wu, there wasn't much worse she could have done than destroy the trailer. I think they were just preparing the audience to accept her eventual "death." Whether or not they had decided to actually kill the character off at that point or "reinvent" her, I don't know, but there seemed to be a deliberate effort to rid her of any residual "goodness" by having her cross a line she couldn't cross back over. 

 

I have an inkling the writers really wanted to simply write the character off the show but someone above them stepped in and dictated that Bitsie not be fired, so this "Eve" thing is the result of a compromise the writers never really wanted. (I know I sure as hell didn't.)

[OtterMommy]

Even if the writers were asked to get rid of the trailer scenes, they botched the storyline.

Burning the trailer hurt the ratings, we can see how much they fell after that episode. They could have had Nick decide to move all this books and gear to the shop instead of having most of it destroyed first. Many people cared about the trailer and everything that was inside more than Juliette.

The writers might have released their mistake and brought in those new Grimm books this season for Nick.

 

 

This is completely true.  What the writers should have done was have Nick decide that the content of the trailer was not safe with Juliette as a hexenbiest and thn moved the contents somewhere safe (which, frankly, would NOT be the Spice Shop, but whatever).  They even could have had a scene of Juliette going to the trailer will all her pent up angst and a lighted match and realized that Nick was one step ahead of her.  Frankly, not only would THAT have made more sense but it also would have helped all the crap that happened after that to make more sense (she realizes that Nick has gotten to a point where he sees her as a hexenbiest and will protect himself, his friends, and his "things" from her).  They still would have been able to get rid of the trailer/set, but no one would have felt betrayed by it.

 

And seriously...what purpose did it serve?  They had already pretty much done all the damage they could to Juliette (and, let's face it, probably more than they really wanted to do....)  There was never a time from the time the trailer was burnt that Nick was stymied by not having access to his stuff.  And now, well, they have new books and shinier weapons.  I really don't think fans would have had a problem if the actual trailer (just the trailer, not the contents) was taken off the show.

 

I have an inkling the writers really wanted to simply write the character off the show but someone above them stepped in and dictated that Bitsie not be fired, so this "Eve" thing is the result of a compromise the writers never really wanted. (I know I sure as hell didn't.)

 

No, I don't think they ever wanted to write off Bitsie.  They may have realized that they screwed up with Juliette and wanted to start fresh-maybe even give her a bigger role, but I don't think there was ever a question of BT leaving.  I do think, however, that they fucked themselves with the season 4 character assassination and then did it again with "Eve."  If they wanted to keep Bitsie, they should have:

Option A: Toned season 4 down a bit and then made it clear that Juilette was not dead.  The "character" currently named Eve IS Juliette and something horrible happened to her to brainwash her...

 

or...

 

Option B: Kill Juilette.  We already know that hexenbiests use corpse for certain spells so have something happen where Juliette's body was reanimated with someone else.  That means no Juliette memories, Nick is a complete stranger to her, etc.

 

Oh, and another thing...I'm having some issues with this site off and on and I lost a reply, but it was about the idea of getting rid of the trailer because of the cost.  I don't think they got rid of the trailer for any financial reason.  There might have been a security reason (it was parked in a public-ish place) or even a space issue (they needed the space used for the set of the interior of the trailer for something else).  I do think there *might* have been a financial reason for getting rid of the house, though.  The ad buys for this season of Grimm dropped and I can imagine that maybe the network trimmed their budget and they were looking for some ways to bring costs down.  Not paying to shoot a few scenes in front of someone's house could save them a bit of money. 

Edited March 17, 2016 by OtterMommy

[orza]

Why not block tape several scenes/episodes of the team entering and exiting the trailer if they needed to save money

That's not how the business works. Shows on the standard 22-episodes-in-10-months production schedule don't have much leeway to flim scenes far in advance when they don't even know if they will be able to use the footage. Script writing is usually only about 2 episodes ahead of filming. It is not until the script is completed and broken down that they know which scenes are in or out, who will appear in each scene, what sets, props and locations will be used, what costumes the actors will be wearing, etc.

 

... about the idea of getting rid of the trailer because of the cost.  I don't think they got rid of the trailer for any financial reason.  There might have been a security reason (it was parked in a public-ish place) or even a space issue (they needed the space used for the set of the interior of the trailer for something else).  I do think there *might* have been a financial reason for getting rid of the house, though.  The ad buys for this season of Grimm dropped and I can imagine that maybe the network trimmed their budget and they were looking for some ways to bring costs down.  Not paying to shoot a few scenes in front of someone's house could save them a bit of money.

The cost of filming a scene in front of the house and in front of the trailer would be about the same. Any time they leave the studio to film it costs money for filming permits, compensation of property owners (including city and state), police presence for traffic and crowd control, etc and this is in addition to their fixed costs of bringing the whole entourage to any local filming location.

 

Burning the trailer with all of its contents was much more impactful than burning an empty trailer would have been. It was shocking and got people's attention, which it was supposed to do. Nick was supposed to feel betrayed by what Juliette did. As for some fans feeling betrayed, well, that is their own issue. Writers of a show with millions of viewers cannot and should not let the feelings and opinions of a small contingent of overinvested fans dictate how they do their jobs. There's no pleasing that crowd, anyway, why try to do so at the expense of the mainstream viewers.