S05.E07: Episode Seven

[izabella]

When Tony was first talking to Charles and later Mabel about, "well, I won't tell you why I can't leave Mary because it wouldn't be gentlemanly, but I enthusiastically encourage you to read between the lines of what I'm not saying about what may or may not have happened between Mary and me, which, by the way, totally happened," I was reminded of this:

 

snip

 

Yes, that's exactly what Tony was doing!  Well said, lol.  I couldn't believe he was just so obvious about it.  I guess he was never taught not to kiss and tell.  And how dare he try to make it seem as though Mary wouldn't let go. 

 

I feel bad for Mabel that she's going to end up with him.  Run, Mabel Lane Fox, Run!

[RedHawk]

And how dare he try to make it seem as though Mary wouldn't let go.

 

 

He didn't quite do that. Blake pointed out to him that he (Tony) knew Mary wanted to end it so why wouldn't he let her go? Tony then made out like he was being such a gentleman because after he had seduced Mary (as he probably likes to think of it, being Rudolph Valentino and all) he could not then let her go with her virtue "tainted". Not that anyone would know it was tainted, Tony, if you'd keep your mouth shut! It was all about Tony. Mary made the right decision.

Edited February 17, 2015 by RedHawk

[SusanSunflower]

Seriously, one would think he had never met George ... delivered the old fashioned way .... 

[mightycrone]

It's so Mrs. Hughes of Mrs. Hughes to say that all that matters is that the child is loved and cared for.  So much of what she says ISN'T said.  I'm glad that Fellowes (up to this point, at least) hasn't made her get out the Gavel of Obviousness and hit us on the head with it.  I always loved her, and it is no exaggeration to say that she is one of the few reasons I continue to watch DA.  To the poster who asks herself "What would Mrs. Hughes do?" I agree.  

[RedHawk]

Tony really pulled a bait and switch on Mary. He acted like he was this modern man who understood her need to feel sure they would be sexually compatible, and didn't judge her for it in the slightest. Not only -- he understood and offered to facilitate a "trial" vacation so they could experiment. Very thoughtful of him! He sure isn't one of those Merton cads.

 

He did not then say, "And after sex week we'll send out the wedding invitations." But at the end of sex week he totally did.

[JudyObscure]

Moonb quote:

Based on that scene, they shouldn't. But I thought the scene was a callback to the episode 1 scene where Anna and Mrs Hughes are cleaning up Edith's room after the fire and find the picture of Marigold under her pillow, and exchange knowing looks. I interpreted the way Mrs. Hughes talked indirectly about Mr. Drewe/Edith/ Marigold - "as long as the child's safe and taken care of" - that she knew the real situation. On two scraps of evidence, whereas Edith's own family can't figure it out without being directly told.....but still.

Ahhhh. I'm starting to get it. I forgot about the picture, that pretty much told the whole story for someone as smart as Mrs. H.



[evilmindatwork]

Yes, that's exactly what Tony was doing!  Well said, lol.  I couldn't believe he was just so obvious about it.  I guess he was never taught not to kiss and tell.  And how dare he try to make it seem as though Mary wouldn't let go. 

 

I feel bad for Mabel that she's going to end up with him.  Run, Mabel Lane Fox, Run!

It seemed that Mabel knew what she was getting into and didn't mind. I don't really know why she wants him-- he dumped her for Mary, slept with Mary and basically did everything but show Mabel nudie pics of Mary to let her know that he and Mary slept together.  Why she would think he's a good investment is beyond my understanding. She knows he has the attention span of a tom-cat and the man doesn't know how to keep a secret.

[ZoloftBlob]

Why she would think he's a good investment is beyond my understanding. She knows he has the attention span of a tom-cat and the man doesn't know how to keep a secret.

 

Because he's a not obviously crippled man in a world where finding an acceptable man is very difficult. And.... Mabel can't be that much of a catch if she's even close to Mary's age but still unmarried.

[Calamity Jane]

ISIS!!!! Noooooooooooo!

I might care a teensy bit about Rose, and Sybbie is cute, but the rest of them can go fly a kite.

Poor Isis, I hope they didn't let her suffer by bringing her home.

Yes, I do know she's fictional.

There had better be puppies to make up for this, I so agree!

[honeywest]

Whenever I see Cora being tough and assertive, I get angry that she usually seems so dim-witted--and for that I blame Julian Fellowes more than Elizabeth McGovern.

 

In this episode more than most, I also saw some resemblance between McGovern and Shirley MacLaine that made them convincing as mother and daughter.

 

Finally, it's lovely that Robert is so accepting of having a Jew in the family

 

He already does (by Western standards if not by Jewish law)--his wife. And I've always thought it was odd that it mattered so little to the Crawleys (or anyone else).

[memememe76]

I feel the writers have tried to make Edith as sympathetic as possible in this mess by drawing Mrs. Drewes as broadly as they could possibly can. It's not so much I feel sympathy for Mrs. Drewes specifically, but I do feel sympathy for someone in her position. 

[majormama]

I do not understand the Gillingham story at all. After sex week, he thinks they're all but engaged while she thinks meh. After a whole month, she finally gets around to dumping him, and his response is no, I won't let you dump me. Then last episode they're at the same place at the same time and barely interact, he's like whatever and she's like how can I convince him to leave me alone even though he isn't even paying attention to me. And this episode he acts like he totally doesn't want Mary, he wants Mable, but he's duty bound to stay with Mary even though she told him it's over. And he and Mable are out on a date at the movies and see Mary and Blake kissing, and *that's* when he realizes it really is over and wonders why she didn't just say so? I thought Bricker had a bad case of "B!tches be cray-cray, you can't possibly know what they mean even when they explicitly tell you," but Gillingham has it much worse. "Well, she *said* it's over, but what she means is I'm obligated to stay with her the rest of my life. Women's minds just work so completely differently from men's we must assume they mean the exact opposite of what they say."

 

Although now that I think about it, maybe the staged kiss was for *Mable's* benefit, not Tony's. If Mable saw Mary "moving on", Tony could no longer claim to still be with her whether it's what he really wants or not.

[evilmindatwork]

Because he's a not obviously crippled man in a world where finding an acceptable man is very difficult. And.... Mabel can't be that much of a catch if she's even close to Mary's age but still unmarried.

 

True. I guess I forgot about that context because the show is usually so frothy.

[ennui]

RE: Kinema, I looked it up, and that is an alternate spelling (especially for the pretentious)

Word Origin and History for cin-e-ma

n. 

1899, "a movie hall," from French cinéma, shortened from cinématographe "motion picture projector and camera," coined 1890s by Lumiere brothers, who invented it, from Latinized form of Greek kinemat-, comb. form of kinema "movement," from kinein "to move" (see cite ) + graphein "to write" (see -graphy ). Meaning "movies collectively, especially as an art form" recorded by 1914. Cinéma vérité is 1963, from French.

 

RE Mabel Lane Fox ... maybe she really loves Tony. It happens.

[Milburn Stone]

Finally, it's lovely that Robert is so accepting of having a Jew in the family

 

He already does (by Western standards if not by Jewish law)--his wife. And I've always thought it was odd that it mattered so little to the Crawleys (or anyone else).

 

Yeah, I'm not buying it. Never have. I think JF wants us to like the Crawleys and so he gives them attitudes that are far more congruent with our own than any they'd actually have. Violet in particular would probably be a raging anti-Semitic bitch.

[Constantinople]

I think the key to the Merton dinner scene is that it was Tom who stood up for Isobel. Everyone else was focused uncomfortably on their soup. So, it was commoner Tom and commoner Isobel, and then the others sort of tagged on. If Tom hadn't stood up, no one would have said anything. I imagine Isobel has a lot of thinking to do. It would have been nice if Lord Merton had stood up first.

 

 

Yes, I think you're right.  Isobel will wonder if he would ever stand up for her against his boys, and whether she really wants to be in the middle of a life where he really doesn't.

Sadly Common Tom didn't stand up for Isobel.  He didn't raise a peep until after Larry Grey made his crack about the chauffeur and the Jew.

 

However, Lord Merton did stand up for Isobel, and Lord Grantham did too, in a way.

 

Lord Merton: I don't see what you're getting at.

Larry Grey: You mean to marry Mrs Crawley. She seems very nice and I wish you both every happiness.

Isobel: Thank you.

Larry Grey: But that doesn't prevent me from seeing the wide disparity in class and background may prove your undoing.

Lord Grantham: What did you say?

Larry Grey: Only that Mrs Crawley, a decent middle class woman with neither birth nor fortune is expecting to fill our mother's shoes as one of the leaders of the county. Is she capable of it? Or will her inevitable failure prove a source of misery to them both?

Lord Grantham: Do you know Mrs Crawley's late son was my heir?

Larry Grey: What does that prove? Everyone has distant cousins who are fairly odd.

Lord Merton: How dare you! Will you go, Larry? I had to make excuses for your rudeness the last time you sat at this table. It is tiring to think I should be called upon to do so again.

Larry Grey: I know the choice of in-laws is eccentric. In this family, you already boast a chauffeur and soon you can claim a Jew, but even so

Tom: Why don't you just get out, you bastard!

[ennui]

Yeah, I'm not buying it. Never have. I think JF wants us to like the Crawleys and so he gives them attitudes that are far more congruent with our own than any they'd actually have. Violet in particular would probably be a raging anti-Semitic bitch.

I doubt that very much. 

[ZoloftBlob]

Well, to have actually explored that, JF would have needed to actually write a storyline depicting Violet as something other than beloved and amusing. And since Maggie Smith is an excellent actress I think it's sad he kept things so hands off. Violet being a raging anti-Semite with a son married to a vaguely Jewish American heiress would have made the hostility to Cora's mom make a lot more sense.

[ennui]

Well, to have actually explored that, JF would have needed to actually write a storyline depicting Violet as something other than beloved and amusing. And since Maggie Smith is an excellent actress I think it's sad he kept things so hands off. Violet being a raging anti-Semite with a son married to a vaguely Jewish American heiress would have made the hostility to Cora's mom make a lot more sense.

You don't need religion for in-laws to dislike each other. I think Cora's whole family is an acquired taste; there's a lot to dislike. No wonder Cora ran off to England. I'm sure there are times when she wishes the Atlantic were wider.

 

There have always been people who don't care much either way, and are actually fairly tolerant. There used to be a saying about 'I don't care what they do, as long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses'. I don't know why people would expect intolerance. Even when Rose wanted to marry the black band leader, Mary said the issue wasn't his color, it was his occupation.

[ZoloftBlob]

You don't need religion for in-laws to dislike each other. I think Cora's whole family is an acquired taste; there's a lot to dislike. No wonder Cora ran off to England. I'm sure there are times when she wishes the Atlantic were wider.

 

Agreed - but it still would have been interesting to see Maggie Smith play Violet with a somewhat less forgivable flaw than not liking Cora's vulgar new money American family. She's a great actress, she could have played the hell out of it.

 

There have always been people who don't care much either way, and are actually fairly tolerant. There used to be a saying about 'I don't care what they do, as long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses'. I don't know why people would expect intolerance

People expect intolerance because England at this time was hardly the bastion of liberal openness. English lords, for example, generally weren't all that cool with their daughters marrying Irish chauffer socialists or having kids out of wedlock or dating black guys. They also weren't all that cool about gays - remember these are the folks who drove the guy who stopped the Nazis from killing them by breaking an unbreakable code into suicide. Where the fuck was the Robert Grantham "oh everyone gets touched in the showers" liberalism then?

 

Little FYI - sons still automatically inherit titles and daughters still don't unless there's special circumstances.

[SusanSunflower]

Yes, for the first years, I assumed Cora's ditzy vacant quality was a self-protective mechanism developed over 25 years of having a disapproving and sharp-tongued Violet as a mother-in-law -- eventually whatever sharp edges Cora might have had got worn down so that very little could arouse her to "bother" to pointlessly voice an opinion about anything. (Now I think it's just that JF is rather remarkably unambitious when it comes to character and story development -- there's a lazy "good enough" for PBS quality I find so frustrating. It really wouldn't have taken much more effort, and no expense at all to include just a bit more detail to flesh these characters out 'properly') 

[evilmindatwork]

They could have, you know, paid the actors for acting out real scenes instead of reciting exposition. Like give us a scene with Cora and Mrs. Drewe instead of having Cora say, "Mrs. Drewe said you were mean to her." Show us Robert talking to Edith about her grief instead of having Robert say, "I spoke to Edith and she's sad."

[helenamonster]

I will not let this show take my Anna love from me. It's already taken my Edith love, it'll have to pry my Anna love from my cold, dead fingers. In my little merry-go-round of "do I still ship the Bateses?" I'm back off. Look, I just want Anna to be happy and her usual spunky self. I demand in S6 for her to be single and running a little detective agency on the side or something equally plucky. That's really all I want from this show, at the end of the day, is that too much to ask? But obviously her and Bates talking about the future means another round of doom is a-comin'.

 

Oy, Atticus, this family needs you. His romance with Rose has certainly been rushed, but they're so sparkly I don't even care. Lady Sinderby is quite lovely as well.

 

Sybbie is beyond adorable.

 

Edith can GTFO with her derision re: Mrs. Drewe. That woman took care of your daughter for a year, you asshole. Changed her diapers, fed her, took care of her if/when she was ill. At this point I find Edith to be nothing but vile.

 

Of course the dog got me. I did not sign on for this Marley and Me bullshit.

[Milburn Stone]

Of relevance to the current discussion regarding my claim that in real life, Violet probably would have been a raging anti-Semitic bitch: an article from the Express titled "Hitler's Aristocratic Admirers."

 

http://www.express.co.uk/expressyourself/126784/Hitler-s-aristocratic-admirers

 

(I hope this isn't me being guilty of proving Godwin's Law, the one about all internet conversations devolving into mentions of Hitler. It actually seems pertinent here!)

[Haleth]

I am so sick of Mary and her array of suitors.  Pretty much for the entire run of the series, other than a year of marriage to Matthew, it's been Who Will Mary Choose?  I don't care anymore!

 

I remember telling someone years ago that DA is an upper crust version of Fiddler on the Roof, with the hapless father watching his daughters fall in love with increasingly inappropriate men.  Mary married well enough with Matthew, but then it was Sybil with Tom, and Rose (as a de facto daughter) with Atticus.  And now we have Edith choosing to raise a child without a man.  Even Tevya could not accept that one.

[Crs97]

Poor Isis. Perhaps they'll replace her with a puppy they steal from the Drewes.

 

 

Line of the thread!  Thanks for the laugh!

[Andorra]

Although they WERE a lot of Aristocratic supporters of Hitler, it doesn't mean every single English Aristocrat was. Hugh Bonneville has described Robert as a "conservative by upbringing but a liberal by nature" so I think Robert wouldn't have too much sympathy for the Nazis, especially not since his wife is Jewish and Rose's inlaws are, too.

 

Violet is a pragmatist. She is not interested in world politics, she is interested in her family's well-being. For her to be "a raging Antisemitic", she would need to show any interest beyond saving her family's inheritance and reputation and I don't see that. She is practical. When it becomes clear Sybil is going to marry the chauffeur, she deals with it and so she does with everything. She knows Rose is not a rich heiress, her family is bound for divorce and has lost their fortune and the Sinderbys - aside from their religion - are titled and rich and very eligible. She overlooked Cora's relatives for money and so she has no problem to overlook Atticus' religion for the same reason.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Andorra

[ZoloftBlob]

She knows Rose is not a rich heiress, her family is bound for divorce and has lost their fortune and the Sinderbys - aside from their religion - are titled and rich and very eligible. She overlooked Cora's relatives for money and so she has no problem to overlook Atticus' religion for the same reason.

 

Yeah, but really, it would just be interesting for someone to have a conflict on the show that wasn't over something like say, Mary displaying her new hair. I suspect we're already set up for most of the objections to Rose's marriage coming from her crazy bitch mother aka an essentially new character.

[WatchrTina]

I'm feeling the teeniest but of sympathy for Lord Tony Gillingham.  I do think that his refusal to accept Mary's rejection is due in part to his being honorable -- he would never have suggested "sex week" if he hadn't assumed it would end in an announcement of their engagement -- but I think the bigger factor is pride.  Think how he must feel, being rejected by Mary after he (presumably) pulled out all the stops to make sex week a success.  You know he's got to be thinking "Wasn't I good enough? Wasn't I <ahem> impressive enough? Was her first husband really that much better than me?  Have the women I've been with in my life all been lying to me about how I've satisfied them?"  And then there's the matter of sexual obsession.  He may simply be completely smitten with Mary and her "rejection" of him just makes her that much more desirable.  How many times have I seen that in life?  Lord Gillingham as written and as portrayed is not a very passionate character but it is easy for me to assume that his being rejected by Mary is really tearing him apart, psychologically speaking.  Poor Mabel.  She will forever be "the one he settled for."

[lucindabelle]

Asa Jew I find myself puzzled by the lack of any antisemitism in "nice" characters lately in beitish TV. They did the same thing on the reboot of Upstairs, Downstairs and it was just weird. Bear in mind that even now most English peopke don't even know any Jews so there's nothing to challenge their stereotyoes.

I will give it a pass for the Crawleys because of Cora, though, and assume whatever latent feelings they might have had got dealt with years ago,

Still, I'm surprised someone like LARRY never made the same crack about Cora over the years. That part of it is odd.

I do love rose and Atticus together and will be annoyed if he's biding some other secret or other.

[WatchrTina]

 

Still, I'm surprised someone like LARRY never made the same crack about Cora over the years.

Someone may have back when Cora was a new bride but for the most part I think the saying "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" was the rule of the day.  Apparently at the time that Cora and Lord Grantham wed it was quite common for titled men from England to go hunting rich brides in America in order to shore up their crumbling estates.  Lord Grantham was successful -- he won a major prize when he landed Cora -- and if anyone snarked about her being a "half-Jew" it was probably done out of jealousy at his success rather than genuine anti-semitism.  In the circles in which these people live, money and connections are the most important things.  If Isobel was rich and his father's estate "embarrassed," Larry the Loser would be sucking up to Isobel, not making cracks designed to end the engagement.  Atticus is rich and his parents own a large estate and are beginning to appear in the same social circles as the Crawleys -- that's enough to make him suitable in their eyes.

 

Plus you have to remember that Cora and Lord Grantham married for money but then they actually fell in love.  They hit the jackpot.  Having had that in their life I can understand their being more sympathetic than most to their children's (and Rose's) desire to marry for love (so long as money and position are part of the bargain.)

[RedHawk]

Am I dense? I just got it: Charles Blake pulled the long con on Mary, didn't he? 

 

Consider: He and Mabel have known each other quite a while and we saw them together several times acting like best buds, i.e., they were not on dates. While Tony and Charles were at first rivals for Mary, after Tony broke his engagement to Mabel and ran back to Mary, she seemed more interested in (upper crust but little money, going to be titled) Tony than (not upper crust, no title) Charles. Then pigs in mud happened and later Tony reveals Charles is heir to a large estate in Ireland. Mary's interest turns a little more toward Charles. But Charles at that point... did he want Mary? 

 

I think that after Mary revealed her class snobbishness, Charles decided they weren't compatible and she wasn't all that. Yes, he enjoyed rolling in the mud with her and having Lady Mary make him scrambled eggs at 4 a.m. But Mabel is his friend, and he wants to help her be with her true love Tony. So he continues showing interest in Mary without actually courting her, and he and Mabel concoct this scheme where they will get her into Mary's circle (why else was he at the fashion show with Mabel? and then he introduces them like "oh, oops, you do know each other" which was ridic) and she can attempt to flirt and reason Tony into coming back. Made much easier by the fact that, as Charles learns, Mary doesn't want Tony anymore. So the schemes continue: the restaurant dinner Charles invites Mary and Mabel to attend, the steeplechase and engineered invitation to stay at Downton, the "kiss me!" at the cinema. Tony finally gives up gracefully with Mabel smiling by his side.

 

Then when the way is clear for Charles, he ends it with Mary by saying, "So, I'm off to Poland for a year. When I return of course you'll be married. Buh-bye!"

SMH! All along when I thought (as did Mary) that Charles was trying to pair up Mabel and Tony so he could have his chance with Mary, it was just Charles working with Mabel (and using Mary's vanity against her) to get Tony back to Mabel. 

Edited February 17, 2015 by RedHawk

[Andorra]

BTW am I the only one who think Rose/Atticus is totally boring? I think it is just too obvious that Lily James has to be written out due to Cinderella. So they just throw in that perfect fairy tale story for her with the perfect fairy tale prince. Yes, he's Jewish, but come on, everyone is fine with it! He's rich, he has a title, a lovely mother and a not so lovely father and they will ride into the sunset at the end of the series. Snore....

 

I loved Tom and Sybbie. So sweet and I think it was obvious that he didn't know an answer to her question why they have to leave.

 

My favourite scene in the episode was Violet telling Mary why she is not happy about Isobel's engagement though. Very touching and I had to cry!

 

Another cry moment: Isobel's face after she fakes a smile for Rose and Atticus at the very end of the episode. Heartwrenching! Also her face when Larry insults her! PW is such a great actress, I wish her work in Downton would get recognized more.

 

And of course I loved Tom standing up and calling Larry a "Bastard". Love angry Tom!

 

Isis... well. She's an old fictional dog. I find the outcry about her fictional death a little bit weird to be honest. But I'm a cat person anyway.

 

Oh and I think Charles Blake morphed into Rupert Everett in "My best friend's wedding" during the last episodes. I wouldn't find it odd if he came back in series 6 just to swap Mary for Thomas!

 

And I'm glad both suitors seem to be gone for now. I didn't like either anyway.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Andorra

[RedHawk]

I loved Tom and Sybbie. So sweet and I think it was obvious that he didn't know an answer to her question why they have to leave.

 

 

Yes, why does Tom continue to think he has to leave? Looks to me like, once he got rid of Bunting, the only person who thinks he's not doing fine for himself at Downton is Edith. Every day he is there Tom is proving that he cares about the Abbey, the village, the county. Not just the wealthy family who have given him and his daughter a home, but all the people of the area. What better position can he be in to bring about changes he believes in? Why take Sybbie away from the family that loves her?

 

Stop dithering. Time to move on or settle in, Tom!

Edited February 17, 2015 by RedHawk

[Andorra]

Here's a sweet clip from PBS, where (among other things) they adress the Isis storyline:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q6gFHgxI3w&pxtry=1

 

I admit I was more moved by Hugh Bonneville's sweet British attempt to hide his feelings as I was in the original scene.

 

I had to laugh about Abby's (Isis) acting though. In the first watch of the episode I didn't notice how wonderfully she played sick dog in the background all episode! Cudos to Abby!

[Avaleigh]

BTW am I the only one who think Rose/Atticus is totally boring? I think it is just too obvious that Lily James has to be written out due to Cinderella. So they just throw in that perfect fairy tale story for her with the perfect fairy tale prince. Yes, he's Jewish, but come on, everyone is fine with it! He's rich, he has a title, a lovely mother and a not so lovely father and they will ride into the sunset at the end of the series. Snore....

 

I loved Tom and Sybbie. So sweet and I think it was obvious that he didn't know an answer to her question why they have to leave.

 

My favourite scene in the episode was Violet telling Mary why she is not happy about Isobel's engagement though. Very touching and I had to cry!

 

Another cry moment: Isobel's face after she fakes a smile for Rose and Atticus at the very end of the episode. Heartwrenching! Also her face when Larry insults her! PW is such a great actress, I wish her work in Downton would get recognized more.

 

And of course I loved Tom standing up and calling Larry a "Bastard". Love angry Tom!

 

Isis... well. She's an old fictional dog. I find the outcry about her fictional death a little bit weird to be honest. But I'm a cat person anyway.

 

Oh and I think Charles Blake morphed into Rupert Everett in "My best friend's wedding" during the last episodes. I wouldn't find it odd if he came back in series 6 just to swap Mary for Thomas!

 

And I'm glad both suitors seem to be gone for now. I didn't like either anyway.

While I don't agree with you, Andorra about Rose and Atticus, I had to plus one this because of your shout out to Penelope Wilton and those moments with Isobel. Yes, ITA! Also, to me she's been just as good as Maggie Smith is it's just that PW doesn't as often get the good lines so Maggie's character ends up being more memorable.   

 

Even though I've gone on record as saying I don't care a fig if Thomas finds happiness or not but the idea of him being the valet/lover of Charles Blake is something that I could totally get behind.

 

Tom and Sybbie were sweet and I agree with whoever it was who pointed out how different the two "Whys?" were from Sybbie. I thought they were effective and they point out that there is no real reason for them to leave. Tom can live in the estate manager's house if it's an issue of wanting to date/marry again and IMO the Abbey would be a draw as opposed to being a hindrance for him romantically. 

What better position can he be in to bring about changes he believes in? Why take Sybbie away from the family that loves her?

That's what I'm curious to know. Sybbie seems to have such a happy life, why take her away from it and where is the guarantee that life will be better for them away from Downton? Maybe it's because I'm thinking about the Depression coming up in a few years but I just worry that if Tom and Sybbie leave that they won't be moving on to something that brings either of them more happiness.

[Constantinople]

BTW am I the only one who think Rose/Atticus is totally boring?

 

How can one not love Ratticus?

[ennui]

Since this is a popular soap opera, they can't really have "raging bitch" anti-Semitic characters. No one would watch. If you want to be upset, watch the news.

 

I think Tom talks about leaving because he's bored and restless. He's a young man. Ideally, he'd fall in love with someone acceptable who could move into DA, and they could make more babies. In a January interview, Allen Leech insisted he's content to remain part of "Downton Abbey" until its run concludes, and sees Tom's "happy ending" coming within the boundaries of the grand estate. "I believe he needs to find love, and he needs to find acceptance from that family for that person that he loves. Because I think Tom's place now is at the Abbey. I think it's his home." 

 

However, Tom needs a story line. Sarah Bunting was unacceptable.

[ShadowFacts]

 

Isis... well. She's an old fictional dog. I find the outcry about her fictional death a little bit weird to be honest. But I'm a cat person anyway.

 

As a dog person, this is grabbing me because it is well done, I feel.  If there's been an outcry about a fictional death (and everything we talk about here is fictional, of course), then it's probably either because it has been poorly done or well done.  All of us who have loved a dog and lost it feel this one by proxy.  They are always happy to see us, never roll their eyes, or slam doors or call us out on our poor behavior.  They just love us and they spend all of their time and attention on us, unlike even our most loved human companions.  So it's not weird to me, but this is in no way a put-down of people who aren't similarly affected. 

[Andorra]

How can one not love Ratticus?

 

LOL, Love that ship name!

 

I'm just disappointed that Rose went from wild Rose to Saint Rose in no time and then gets a romance that feels incredibly rushed and for the sole purpose to get rid of her, Atticus does nothing but smile and look "CUUUTE". For me he is nothing but eycandy and their romance is a boring, soapy fairy tale, Sorry.

 

I liked wild Rose and I always wanted her to have some character development. But from Jack the black Jazz singer to good-doer and adoring wife of an even more adoring husband in one season is so rushed and I feel hit over my head with her sudden change.

[stopeslite]

Dang, RedHawk, I love that long con idea so much, I can't even tell you. 

 

I don't understand the Mertons at all. Did the mother die when Larry and his brother Daryl (or whatever his name is) were 13? Because that's the maturity level they seem to be arrested at. I agree that Merton did a decent job of defending Isobel at the table, but he obviously did a terrible job of raising them. He ought to tell them that he's disinheriting them whether he marries Isobel or not, because they're such terrible people.

 

Edith is infuriating me, as is Cora. Cora had no right to yell at Violet and Rosamund so much, not without also admitting part of why she's mad is that she is Edith's mother but didn't see herself how upset Edith was. And Edith's disdain for Mrs. Drewe is just as repulsive as Mary's disdain for Edith.

 

Edith could have pulled off her own idiotic con so much better. Imagine a big, impassioned speech once the family started pushing back at her announcement of keeping Marigold: "I want to be a mother, and I'm facing reality. Papa, you ran off my first fiance, and my second one died. Yes, we were engaged, not that any of you noticed or cared. I'm getting older every day, and my chances for marriage are withering along with me. The only reason Mary is getting men's attention at our age is because she owns half of Downton, and I don't have even that as an enticement. Can any of you look me in the face and honestly say I have a husband in my future to worry about? I didn't think so. This is my best chance to have a child of my own. I WILL be a mother, and Marigold WILL be my daughter. I want that to be here, but if you don't  accept that, I'll take her to London and we'll live there. It's your choice." *dramatic flourish exit*  

 

ETA: Plus, that would have the added benefit of setting up the situation so that everyone thinks she is slightly unhinged when it comes to Marigold. That way, she could imperiously indulge in being her "mommy" and openly treating her like that to her heart's content, and rather than arousing suspicion that there's more to the story, that would throw everyone even further off into thinking Edith's just crackers. "Edith dear, do you really think it's appropriate for your little orphan ward Marigold to come to.. " "I HAVE TOLD YOU, MARIGOLD IS MY DAUGHTER AND YOU WILL TREAT HER AS SUCH" "Oh, right, well then."

Edited February 17, 2015 by stopeslite

[RedHawk]

Stopeslite, I like what you're saying as well. Yes, I would have loved for Edith to make a big speech like that. 

 

And after Edith's dramatic exit, Mary could have said to all standing there agog, "Oh, let her keep the child. She's right, isn't she? No one was going to marry her."

Edited February 17, 2015 by RedHawk

[jnymph]

Here's a sweet clip from PBS, where (among other things) they adress the Isis storyline:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q6gFHgxI3w&pxtry=1

 

I admit I was more moved by Hugh Bonneville's sweet British attempt to hide his feelings as I was in the original scene.

 

I had to laugh about Abby's (Isis) acting though. In the first watch of the episode I didn't notice how wonderfully she played sick dog in the background all episode! Cudos to Abby!

 

Well, there you have it.  The storyline of Isis passing away was simply an acknowledgment of the passage of time.  The ending was beautiful.  *sniff*

I thought of the aspect of  "hope they didn't prolong her suffering" by taking her back home as well.... but thought better of it by reasoning, it IS fiction and laying her between Robert and Cora for her last night was symbolic of their love for her (and each other).  Good storytelling IMO & Lord knows, we need more of that in DA.  .   Robert coming home empty handed from the vet wouldn't cut it.

 

 

Sweet dreams, dear Isis. 

[Constantinople]

I'm just disappointed that Rose went from wild Rose to Saint Rose in no time and then gets a romance that feels incredibly rushed and for the sole purpose to get rid of her, Atticus does nothing but smile and look "CUUUTE". For me he is nothing but eycandy and their romance is a boring, soapy fairy tale, Sorry.

 

I liked wild Rose and I always wanted her to have some character development. But from Jack the black Jazz singer to good-doer and adoring wife of an even more adoring husband in one season is so rushed and I feel hit over my head with her sudden change.

I think JF is just giving Rose a different movie every season.

Last season was Titanic with Rose, the impoverished aristocrat who falls in love with the socially inappropriate Jack (I NEED YOU TO PLAY JAZZ ROSE!). Plus, they were even in a (row)boat once.

This season with Scottish Rose and Jewish/English Atticus, in 1924 no less, it's Chariots of Fire, except this time Eric Liddell & Harold Abrahams are racing to the altar.

[persey]

One of my problems with that speech is that being engaged to a married man was flatly impossible in the context of the 20s. It just wouldn't compute with people. An understanding, perhaps, but of necessity informal. In an age of breech of promise suits, an engagement was a serious matter.

At some point, everyone will have to know Gregson was married when Edith took up with him and why they don't know now (investigations of his disappearance! news coverage of a major figure!) is beyond me. When they do find out, Edith will come across as even more stupid and immoral than she does now, in 20s eyes.

Edited February 17, 2015 by persey

[RedHawk]

Cora's talk with Rosamund and Violet made me see just how little Elizabeth McGovern usually has to work with. Here Cora got to be dramatic and show several emotions. For example, her reaction to Rosamund's "She was going to get rid of it." "Get rid of it?!" Cora showed us her shock and horror at the thought, and later her concern and understanding that "they" were going to take Edith's baby from her.

 

It becomes very much a "they" vs "us" situation with Cora very much on Edith's side. I realized that she was so emotionally involved not just because she's the baby's grandmother but because Rosamund never had a child (um, except Edith, ha) and Violet may not remember deep maternal feelings (hormones!) from so long ago. But Cora also recently lost a child (and at least one pregnancy), and she still feels those losses. That's why she does agree the Mrs. Drewe was "ill used" but has no question that the child should be with Edith.

[Too Late Kev]

Moseley and Baxter are new but younger and probably eminently employable for a few more decades. (Violet should poach both of them. I'm not amused by her petty tyrant of a butler, while her maid probably does the bulk of the work under his watchful eye and constant criticism.)

 

I would love to see Moseley and Baxter going to work for Violet! Then Violet can entertain anyone she wanted to; Moseley would never be judgmental about serving a mere doctor or commoner like Spratt is! But if Baxter left DA, Cora would have to find another lady's maid -- God help us!

 

Here's a thing - how easy or difficult would it have been for one of the villagers (Mrs. Drewe) to walk up to the Abbey to talk to one of the bosses?

 

I know someone already answered this, but I wanted to repeat/stress that the important part of going to talk to the Lord or Ladies of the manor would be to go to the servant's area. I think there was a situation in an earlier season when a commoner or salesperson went to the front door (maybe someone else can remember the details) and Carlton was quite put out about it.

 

Tony tells Mabel Lane Fox, "I can't tell you why I can't let go of Mary. All I can say is that you would understand if you knew." Do you think Mabel -- who is no dim bulb -- has an inkling that her man has been intimate with Mary? He sure made sure to say without saying to Blake that he indeed knew Mary's gardens. All this "I can't let her go, it would not be honorable of me now". Please Tony, Mary cut you loose with a sharp knife, so don't play the "but I must make her an honorable woman" card!

 

If I were Mabel Lane Fox, I'd read between the lines and think, "Lady Mary was interested in Tony enough to have sex with him...and now she's not interested. Maybe the sex wasn't that great. I'm outa here!" Of course, we have no way of knowing what Mabel's level of sexual experience is and whether she would consider sexual compatibility as part of her decision-making process.

 

Regarding the shortage of men, we know there is one. But when we first heard about MLF, she was presented as a very wealthy woman and pretty much the catch of the time. When Tony dropped her in hopes of landing Mary, she would have moved on. By now, she would probably have already chosen a better prospect and be married, probably expecting her first privileged child. She'd also laugh like hell when she discovered Mary still hadn't chosen Tony.

 

I'm not really a pet-person, but I found the scene in the bedroom with Cora, Robert, and Isis to be very sweet. The clip Andorra linked above indicated that Bonneville suggested that Isis would be getting old by now about a year before the story was written, adding more evidence that the story of the poor sweet dog's death had nothing to do with the terrorist organization.

 

On the Edith plot, I'm glad that we'll end up with Margorie at Downton Abbey, and glad that Cora was the one that made it happen.

[ShadowFacts]

 

I don't understand the Mertons at all. Did the mother die when Larry and his brother Daryl (or whatever his name is) were 13? Because that's the maturity level they seem to be arrested at. I agree that Merton did a decent job of defending Isobel at the table, but he obviously did a terrible job of raising them. He ought to tell them that he's disinheriting them whether he marries Isobel or not, because they're such terrible people.

 

Larry and his brother Daryl, good one, stopeslite!  I thought it a little unchivalrous that Merton blamed his dead wife for how much his sons take after her in every possible way.  He's letting himself off the hook too easily.  No matter how bad she may have been, she's only half of the equation.  Or less, maybe we should throw in the nanny and governess or headmaster, or whomever was spending a lot of time with these two. 

[moonb]

I've forgotten: do we know whether Mabel Lane Fox is closer to Mary's age or Rose's?  Like Too Late Kev said, she was supposedly a great catch as far as her wealth went, but if she's in her late 20s and unmarried during a marriageable men shortage, that would raise eyebrows. I had the impression last season that she had recently debuted and Gillingham still threw her over to pursue Mary.

Edited February 17, 2015 by moonb

[helenamonster]

BTW am I the only one who think Rose/Atticus is totally boring? I think it is just too obvious that Lily James has to be written out due to Cinderella. So they just throw in that perfect fairy tale story for her with the perfect fairy tale prince. Yes, he's Jewish, but come on, everyone is fine with it! He's rich, he has a title, a lovely mother and a not so lovely father and they will ride into the sunset at the end of the series. Snore....

 

I don't think Lily James's leaving has anything to do with Cinderella. The movie comes out next month, I think, and they wrapped S5 in August. She would have already completed filming Cinderella by then. I think she has a burgeoning film career in front of her (she's also doing Pride, Prejudice, and Zombies) but I don't think Cinderella is the specific cause for her having to be written out of the show. If that were the case, Sophie McShera would be on her way out as well.

 

You know, now that Gregson is officially dead, I wouldn't mind finding out that Lizzie Gregson wasn't at all mentally ill and have her show up for some kind of revenge. Where she's been all this time, idk, but still.