Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Shanna Marie]

Relationships are one of the big areas where I feel like these writers have that idiot savant thing going on. They create all these complicated and layered connections among the characters, then totally fail to use them, to the point where it feels like they didn't even realize what they were creating.

 

Take Neal. He had that weird love/hate thing going on with his father, where he loved him and thought things were great until they weren't. He was willing to go to a strange world in order to save his father from what he saw as a curse, but his father bailed at the last second, so he was on his own. He spent a lifetime running from his father and anything connected to him or that world, but doing that meant making a lot of moral compromises so that he ended up going from being idealistic and heroic to being cynical and kind of scummy, and he ended up repeating some of his father's mistakes in trying to flee his history. Then his father tracks him down to the world that was his refuge. He's got all kinds of issues with his father, his father is facing an adult he somehow wasn't prepared for, he's got a son he didn't know about, he's reunited with Emma after trying to avoid her because of who she was. He admitted that if he had known who she was, he'd have never gone near her. Then there's Hook and whatever relationship he had with Hook in Neverland and the awareness of Hook's relationship with his mother, plus his father's possible reaction to the fact that he did have any kind of relationship with Hook. And now, after a century away from anything to do with his home world, he's stuck having to deal with all these people from that world if he wants anything to do with his son. But they didn't touch on any of this potential. They were all over the map in Emma's reactions to him. They didn't even try to let Emma's parents have realistic reactions to the guy who knocked up their teenage daughter. There was no conflict with Henry, not even a bit of "why didn't you try to find my mom?" We don't even know what kind of relationship he had with Hook. They skimmed over the way he treated Emma and his very questionable decision to try to re-raise the Dark One and declared him a hero. It was basically the least interesting way they could have dealt with that character.

 

BTW, I never really got any sense that he was all that into Emma in the present day. He was mostly focused on Henry. He didn't show a lot of interest in wanting Emma at all until he saw that Hook wanted her, and then I guess the competitive instinct kicked in, and he didn't want Hook taking away the mother of yet another kid, or something. But again, they didn't delve into that.

 

It's a similar thing with Regina and all her relationships. There was so much potential with her stuck in this town with all these people she'd hurt over the years. Just imagine what they could have had if in the clock tower with Cora she'd realized that it was all Cora's scheme all along, that Snow was just as much a victim as she was, and she'd basically thrown her whole life away over a misplaced assumption. That wouldn't have had to make her all meek and groveling. In fact, she's got a lot of pride, so there might have been even more attitude and sass, especially if they treated her like she knew she deserved to be treated. Then instead of giving her one big moment that totally redeemed her, they could have had her seemingly reluctantly join in against common foes and gradually win their trust while acting all along like she didn't care and secretly being glad when she got to be included or when she was praised.

 

Instead, they give us superficial relationships that aren't at all like any realistic reaction might be.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Instead, they give us superficial relationships that aren't at all like any realistic reaction might be.

A true oddity is that given the show's premise and subject matter, you don't really need a lot of realism to pull off coherent relationships. Even the Disney films, where people get married in a manner of days, have more organic elements than Once does. Realism is important for audiences to relate, and even in small amounts it can be effective if the story quality is good. But most of the time we get nothing at all.

Edited January 26, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Faemonic]

Relationships are one of the big areas where I feel like these writers have that idiot savant thing going on. They create all these complicated and layered connections among the characters, then totally fail to use them, to the point where it feels like they didn't even realize what they were creating.

 

Take Neal. (...) It was basically the least interesting way they could have dealt with that character.

You left out the confrontation Neal could have had with Mayor Mills. Instead there was the proxy with Grandpa Stiltskin not even taking a moment to go "neener neener blood relation". I'll have to settle for Reggie referring to him as This Person.

BTW, I never really got any sense that he was all that into Emma in the present day. He was mostly focused on Henry. He didn't show a lot of interest in wanting Emma at all until he saw that Hook wanted her

He did barge in on Gold maybe about to turn Emma into a snail (so Neal might have thought). And he did hug Emma after she told him he wanted him dead, and was all, "I'll never stop fighting for you" even before he knew about Hook's Dalliance With Emma. For something called the Echo Caves, the acoustics are terrible if Nealfire didn't catch that when Hook said it right in front of him! But I was a wee bit squicked at interpreting Neal's line as "I'll never stop fighting for your company in my life again, Emma." Instead of, "I'll never stop fighting by your side to help accomplish your goals." But I can't think it was the latter.

Just imagine what they could have had if in the clock tower with Cora she'd realized that it was all Cora's scheme all along, that Snow was just as much a victim as she was, and she'd basically thrown her whole life away over a misplaced assumption. That wouldn't have had to make her all meek and groveling. In fact, she's got a lot of pride, so there might have been even more attitude and sass, especially if they treated her like she knew she deserved to be treated. Then instead of giving her one big moment that totally redeemed her, they could have had her seemingly reluctantly join in against common foes and gradually win their trust while acting all along like she didn't care and secretly being glad when she got to be included or when she was praised.

Instead, they give us superficial relationships that aren't at all like any realistic reaction might be.

I thought that was strange because Regina's redemption was going so well in 2A. Henry called her out on her making everyone think he was crazy. She told David the truth about the Enchanted Forest. She got all those Thousand Yard Stares after flashbacks about Cora. I could even have rooted for her feeling anxious about everyone knowing she was in therapy.

 

But my best guess is that developing that at a realistic pace would have ruined the power fantasy.

[KingOfHearts]

I still don't see how people ship Swan Queen. Maybe I don't understand how lesbian couples work (though I am gay myself), but I've just never seen any romantic chemistry between them. I didn't even know it was a thing until I started reading these boards. Emma and Regina work well off each other, but I never saw them as a potential couple.

[Curio]

It's just one of those unspoken Internet fandom rules where every TV show or movie has to have that one m/m or f/f pairing the fandom can cling to. Poe/Finn, Castiel/Dean, John/Sherlock, etc. I don't want to step on any mods' toes here, but I personally think that any Swan Queen discussion needs to happen in the fandom thread because that's what it is—a fandom pairing. Now, if we're just discussing Regina and Emma as Henry's parents or begrudging friends, then I'm all for discussing it in this thread.

[KingOfHearts]

 

don't want to step on any mods' toes here, but I personally think that any Swan Queen discussion needs to happen in the fandom thread because that's what it is—a fandom pairing.

Well, the fandom thread is for viewer issues, not fandom opinions in general. (According to the title and description, anyway) I posted my SQ post here because I wanted to discuss the relationship of Regina/Emma and how it could be viewed as potentially romantic. I'm more interested in talking about the characters themselves than the fans who watch them.

[Curio]

Well, the fandom thread is for viewer issues, not fandom opinions in general. (According to the title and description, anyway) I posted my SQ post here because I wanted to discuss the relationship of Regina/Emma and how it could be viewed as potentially romantic. I'm more interested in talking about the characters themselves than the fans who watch them.

 

Fair enough. I figured most SQ discussion tends to derail into more of a discussion about the fans anyways, so I was just trying to keep the threads organized.

 

For me, I don't really buy the "sisterly" friendship between the two at this point, so it's difficult for me to begin discussing any further fictional feelings that might be there. I thought the show was doing a decent job in Season 3 with making them begrudging allies and slowly building trust between the two, but then Season 4 happened and turned all of that progress into a dumpster fire. One of the worst decisions the writers made was essentially hitting the "reset button" during the hiatus of 4A and 4B, where all of a sudden things went from 0 to 100 and they became BFFs off screen. How do you go from How-dare-you-save-the-person-I-was-about-to-kill-and-ruin-my-budding-romance-and-oh-by-the-way-this-is-the-exact-same-thing-I-did-to-you-and-Graham-but-we-won't-mention-that to Oh-my-god-let-me-buy-you-root-beers-and-kale-salads-and-everyone-stop-what-you're-doing-because-Regina-needs-her-happy-ending?

 

It's similar to Emma and her relationship with her parents. So much of their progress seems to happen off screen that it's hard to accept their current status. While most of us have been waiting for Emma and her parents to have some important conversations, the writers believe everything is fixed with a hug.

[YaddaYadda]

That's the problem, the writers think for some reason that everything is peachy between Emma her parents, Emma/Regina. It's not.

 

Let's talk about Regina and the dagger. On some level, I get why Regina did what she did, but doing it with a smile on her face while controlling the person who entrusted her with something important? So.much.no,to.that!! Like no!

 

I think the worst thing for me was Emma thanking Regina, and then saying she was right. 

 

Then an episode later, we have Hook's completely visceral reaction to Emma controlling him. 

 

What's wrong with this picture?

[Curio]

I think the worst thing for me was Emma thanking Regina, and then saying she was right. 

 

Then an episode later, we have Hook's completely visceral reaction to Emma controlling him. 

 

What's wrong with this picture?

This double-standing writing unfortunately makes Emma's character look kind of like a hypocrite. Apparently, Emma was totally fine with Regina controlling her with the dagger and even thanked her for doing it, but then Emma in the next episode apologizes to Hook for controlling him with the dagger and knows that it wasn't right. So are we supposed to assume Emma learned her lesson and realized that what Regina did was wrong, or are we supposed to look past the characters and assume that this was just another classic case of the writers not wanting to add any legitimate issues between Emma and Regina? It seems like any time there's an actual argument those two should have (Graham's death, ditching Henry because of a boyfriend, being callous with the dagger), it never happens. Isn't this show a drama? Aren't the characters supposed to have conflict? Especially between two characters that are supposed to be somewhat antagonistic towards each other?

[KingOfHearts]

 

One of the worst decisions the writers made was essentially hitting the "reset button" during the hiatus of 4A and 4B, where all of a sudden things went from 0 to 100 and they became BFFs off screen

I actually think those six weeks would have been very interesting. Belle and Regina coping with losing their loved ones, Mary Margaret going back to her teaching job, Emma and Hook continuing to date, etc.

 

 

Let's talk about Regina and the dagger. On some level, I get why Regina did what she did, but doing it with a smile on her face while controlling the person who entrusted her with something important? So.much.no,to.that!! Like no!

 

I understand why Emma would trust Regina to do what was necessary. But Lana (possibly the director too) made some poor acting choices in 5A, imo. Pairing that psychotic behavior with the hypocritical Zelena scenes does not do the character any justice. I'm not sure if the script called for "devilish grin", but if it did I would guess they were setting up a total reversion of Regina's redemption arc.

 

 

For me, I don't really buy the "sisterly" friendship between the two at this point, so it's difficult for me to begin discussing any further fictional feelings that might be there.

I love them as reluctant co-parents, frenemies, and partners in crime. I don't have a dire need to see them shopping or talking about boys, especially since Regina is Emma's step-grandmother and quite a bit older than her. That's putting all the murder and abuse aside. Now if I had to describe it from a moral standpoint:

Emma: "You murdered my grandfather, attempted to kill both my parents, tried to kill me three times, cursed my entire homeland for 28 years of miserly imprisonment, abused my son for years, murdered my friend Graham, and now you're verbally abusing me for apologizing to you. Let's be best friends forever! You really know me like no one else does, Regina!"

Edited January 27, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

I actually think those six weeks would have been very interesting. Belle and Regina coping with losing their loved ones, Mary Margaret going back to her teaching job, Emma and Hook continuing to date, etc.

 

Can we go back in time and have that be 4B instead? There was so much normal-life relationship stuff that happened that would have been fun to watch. I wanted to see the conversation between Snow and Regina where Snow asked her to take over being Mayor again. I wanted to see if Emma even bothered to help Belle find a new happy ending, since she was doing the same for Regina. Was Emma helpful in convincing Will and Belle to become a "thing"? Heck, we could have actually seen Will and Belle become a thing. Speaking of Belle, how much fun would it have been to see more of those Belle/Hook library sessions? And we could have actually seen some normal date nights with Emma and Hook and Netflix. Seeing Rumple struggle for half a season during those six weeks might have done the character good, instead of having it be a montage in one episode.

Damn it, I really need to start that Offscreenville comic.

[mjgchick]

This double-standing writing unfortunately makes Emma's character look kind of like a hypocrite. Apparently, Emma was totally fine with Regina controlling her with the dagger and even thanked her for doing it, but then Emma in the next episode apologizes to Hook for controlling him with the dagger and knows that it wasn't right. So are we supposed to assume Emma learned her lesson and realized that what Regina did was wrong, or are we supposed to look past the characters and assume that this was just another classic case of the writers not wanting to add any legitimate issues between Emma and Regina? It seems like any time there's an actual argument those two should have (Graham's death, ditching Henry because of a boyfriend, being callous with the dagger), it never happens. Isn't this show a drama? Aren't the characters supposed to have conflict? Especially between two characters that are supposed to be somewhat antagonistic towards each other?

I think its so Emma and Regina wouldn't have any issues when so much wrong with their relationship.

In the present they had Emma talk about the dagger and it having her name on it so I assumed someone used it to control her. As the season goes on we do see someone use it to control her and its Regina but for whatever reason Emma thanks her but then goes and apologizes to Killian for doing the same? Like others are we suppose to think Emma knows how wrong it is to control people or do they just refuse to have Emma and Regina actually have conflict. Those two really shouldn't be friends at all if Emma is just going to walk on eggshells when it comes to Regina.

On the other hand I like that Emma is willing to blackmail Rumple and will tell him not to test her because she clearly scares him. What I hate is that the show makes these people so stupid for plot that its hard to take their threats seriously.

[RedKeep]

 

I don't have a dire need to see them shopping or talking about boys, especially since Regina is Emma's step-grandmother and quite a bit older than her.

While I think there are perfectly good reasons for not wanting them to be bffs and I would agree with many of them, I think it's quite understandable that the age difference and the step-grandmother thing are not part of them for the characters, based on their experiences/perspectives. Technically, pretty much everyone on this show other than Henry and baby Neal is older than Emma. (Including Roland.) But she has only ever experienced the adults as people roughly her age and the only characters who occasionally get to be a bit self-aware about how old they really are by now are those who are literally hundreds of years older than the rest.

 

And the step-grandmother thing is somewhat in line with that because it's also something that's just not part of their actual experiences. It's different from Regina/Snow because Regina and Emma have no memory of being part of the same family prior to meeting in Storybrooke because turns out they're both mothers to Henry. Any actual relationship and emotional connection of whatever kind they may have is rooted firmly in the Storybrooke present. And while I'm sure they're aware of the technicalities of their complicated family tree it would seem completely awkward and non-credible to me if their interactions were suddenly shaped by how, once upon a time, if things had gone differently, Emma may have been raised by a family that included Snow's stepmother as her step-grandmother.

 

I get where you're coming from, I have a similar subjective reaction to parts of the Emma/Hook dynamic and Hook and Henry scenes, thanks to Hook's history with Henry's father and paternal grandparents, but objectively speaking... I get why Emma's not overly influenced by it in both cases.

[Rumsy4]

What I hate is that the show makes these people so stupid for plot that its hard to take their threats seriously.

Yeah. It's hard to feel sorry for a bunch of people who are too stupid to live. I know we tend to make Belle the poster child for naïveté, but all the main characters act like morons half the time. I think Rumple is the only person with brains, but he muahahas too much.

[mjgchick]

Even he get's hit with the dumb stick also but I think he self sabotages himself for the most part. Although him becoming the Dark One again was such a MarySue moment that I can't fault Emma on that.

[Faemonic]

Maybe I don't understand how lesbian couples work (though I am gay myself), but I've just never seen any romantic chemistry between them. I didn't even know it was a thing until I started reading these boards. Emma and Regina work well off each other, but I never saw them as a potential couple.

Well, even heterosexual people say there's a fine line between love and hate, because both hate and (their definition of) love are forms of passion. They're strong, intense feelings, and if it's mutual then there is something there. And, a lot of viewers interpret that as chemistry. I'm sure A&E never saw them as a potential couple, either, or Lana, or Jen. So...barring a drastic shift in industry politics...they're not a potential romantic pairing, or an actual one, or midgame/endgame. But as audience members, we're going to project and infer and interpret what we see in our own ways.

 

To meander just a wee bit off topic, one theory goes that acanonical (not canon) romantic pairings that are same-sex is due to the dearth of canon same-sex pairing representations: we're going to seek it out and interpret a same-sex couple in a gay way, in order to find ourselves reflected back from the medium. Otherwise, it's never or rarely going to happen. There's other theories such as gender representation, symbolically meaning that someone of the same sex is going to be understood as competition on some level, so heterosexual girls will want two cute fictional boys to get together as an avenue of exploring female sexuality without the subconscious threat of competition from other actual (fictional) girls. The genderswap is also true.

 

I think both theories are bunk, personally. I don't ship canon Regina with canon Emma, but then again I didn't see the big fuss about Aurora and Mulan either until it actually kind of happened (and then I got offended because nothing happened and there was all that self-congratulatory blearghy blah and parents pearl-clutching about how they're going to explain to their kids about lesbians that nothing happened between.) I shipped Laura and Danielle in Carmilla, where most audience members were femmeslashers who gave the collective cry, "Is this what it feels like to ship something canon??" So I just have terrible shipping instincts, because

Laura and Carmilla were totally endgame.

Meanwhile, in the Jessica Jones fandom

there was a canon lesbian love triangle, and I swear the evil lawyer lady and the pretty secretary with whom she was supposed to be cheating on her wife had zero chemistry

even though they're canon, so I'm not surprised that the fanon One True Pairing is Jessica and Patricia, because I think that setup was a-d'aww-able and they're very sweet together. I can also appreciate the friendship-too-deep-for-romance that seems to be the canon for that pairing so far.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Faemonic

[Shanna Marie]

But I was a wee bit squicked at interpreting Neal's line as "I'll never stop fighting for your company in my life again, Emma." Instead of, "I'll never stop fighting by your side to help accomplish your goals." But I can't think it was the latter.

I'm not sure either interpretation fits. If I'm Emma in that situation, I'm thinking, "Oh? And when are you going to start fighting for me?" because up to that point, he hadn't fought for her in anything, whether to stick by her side as a romantic partner or to support her in accomplishing her goals. He'd always chosen what was best or easiest for himself, at her expense. And then there's the issue that he was engaged to someone else less than a week before he pledged to never stop fighting for Emma, and the last time he saw Emma before making this pledge, it was about 30 seconds after he finally realized that Emma was right about his fiancee being up to no good, and it wasn't just that Emma was being jealous. So, was he actually in love with Emma the entire time he was with Tamara, even as he was defending Tamara to Emma and making it clear that he was planning to marry Tamara, or did he abruptly switch gears and fall back in love with Emma while he was away from Emma, when the only thing that had changed was his fiancee turning out to have been using him and hearing Emma's desperate last-second confession of love before he fell through the portal? Either way, he looks kind of creepy. With the first option, it's not fair to his fiancee to be planning a wedding when he's in love with someone else (yeah, it wasn't a real relationship because she was playing him, but he didn't know that at the time, and if he sensed that something was off, why didn't he do something about it?). With the second option, Emma looks like an easy fall-back position, like, "Well, that didn't work out. Next!"

 

When you think about the fiancee from a week earlier, it becomes even weirder that Emma's parents were so eager for her to start dating Neal. This is when the writers get tripped up by their own timeline, forgetting that while it's been half a year for viewers, it's been a week for the characters. Or else they were so eager to blot out the Tamara plot that they let everyone conveniently forget about her. But even if you disregard the way Neal treated Emma when she was a teenager, what parent would be pushing their daughter to date a man who was engaged to someone else a week ago? That's dangerous rebound territory. Yeah, Tamara shooting him probably made him fall out of love really fast, but he must have been happy with the person she was pretending to be if he wanted to marry her and brought her to town to introduce her to his son. Was there no mourning the relationship he lost? No second guessing about how he missed that she was using him while involved with someone else? He doesn't seem to care that a woman he loved died, even if she wasn't the person he thought she was. The person he thought she was essentially died twice, once when he learned she didn't exist and then when she died physically. He doesn't react at all to the massive betrayal. Didn't his eagerness to jump right into things with Emma concern her parents? The advice most people give in such situations is to wait a while and let him recover a bit before jumping into anything. Let him develop a relationship with Henry with Emma in the picture, and then see what develops. Not "you should totally meet him in the diner a week after his fiancee's death."

 

But this comes back to that issue of the characters never being allowed to react like real people.

[mjgchick]

Emma watching Killian's dead body wheeled away was the first real reaction we've seen on the show in a while. Then the next morning they took that away with the whole "I'm going to the underworld to get him." Her parents should've been way more hesitant but then I forget these people are fairytale characters so that's how they roll I guess.

[YaddaYadda]

Her parents should've been way more hesitant but then I forget these people are fairytale characters so that's how they roll I guess.

 

At the same time, there's a whole scene that's been cut explaining why they're doing this. The eternal debate, cut something that's irrelevant, or relevant?

[mjgchick]

I wonder what goes in their mind to delete a scene that's actually character driven? Why are they allergic to this? And they wonder why people can't connect with why Snow and David are ok with being with people who have hurt them. Even going to get Hook I'd be ok with them being hesitant even if Emma doesn't give a fuck what they think.

[Curio]

I wonder what goes in their mind to delete a scene that's actually character driven?

 

They don't plan out their episode lengths very well, so important scenes tend to get cut. I think the writers try to incorporate a fair amount of character-driven scenes, but they tend to get lost in the fog because they're either given to characters we don't care about (see: Merida, Lancelot, Gwen, and Arthur in 5A), or the scenes lack significance because they don't have much impact on the plot or characters.

 

For example, I'm guessing the writers thought the Henry-centric was filled to the max with "character-driven" relationship scenes, but a lot of it was useless to me because A) Henry bores me, and B) his friendship with Violet kind of went no where. Henry got a lot of quieter character moments where we learned that he apparently has terrible taste in movies and puts way too much importance on being a "hero," so if you actually like Henry's character, then that episode fulfills some character-driven moments for him. If you're not a fan of his character, then that doesn't satisfy your need for more character-driven scenes.

 

In that same episode, we have another meaningless character-driven scene (where Emma forces Regina to watch a recap of Season 1 in the dreamcatcher) that the writers probably thought was a huge present for the audience, but it was literally just a rehash of a scene they'd already filmed. So again, it did nothing to further the plot or the characters of Emma and Regina in 5A. While the writers probably thought this was a great character-driven scene helping to build their "friendship," it felt like a complete waste of time (besides the obvious fact that the audience had already seen the 2-minute long flashback before) because Emma should have already known about Daniel's death and the whole scene was utterly useless because they ended up using Henry's tears anyways. So thanks—no thanks—to that "character-driven" scene.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Curio

[mjgchick]

Yeah what was the point of that if Emma already knew it wasn't going to work? They clearly cared more about Emma traumatizing that poor girl and making it all about Henry. I did like how destraught Emma was about doing it. Jennifer or the directors actually remembered that Emma is a good person. You'd think the directors or Lana would've done the same when Regina was forcing Emma through the dagger to do something she clearly didn't want to do. Regina is Emma's friend wouldn't she feel guilty doing that to her?

[Free]

Emma watching Killian's dead body wheeled away was the first real reaction we've seen on the show in a while. Then the next morning they took that away with the whole "I'm going to the underworld to get him." Her parents should've been way more hesitant but then I forget these people are fairytale characters so that's how they roll I guess.

 

The writers like to suck away every bit of tension as soon as it's introduced.  Most of the time, the characters don't even seem to care anymore.

[Shanna Marie]

At the same time, there's a whole scene that's been cut explaining why they're doing this. The eternal debate, cut something that's irrelevant, or relevant?

The scene wouldn't have been required if they'd bothered to build the relationships along the way. That's one of their problems. They don't think to weave the character and relationship moments into other scenes, so suddenly they need a big relationship scene to explain something, but that actually is kind of boring, so that scene gets cut and we're left with no relationship and no explanation.

 

So with Hook, they haven't really bothered to build relationships between him and anyone but Emma. We know why she'd go into the Underworld after him, but we don't actually know what his relationship with anyone else is. Snow seemed to be advocating for him during the Dark One stuff, but we haven't actually seen him interact directly with her, so we can't really be sure what she thinks about him and his relationship with Emma. David runs hot and cold, depending on the needs of the plot, and I'm losing count of the number of times he's expressed doubt about Hook, only to come around and accept him by the end of the episode. Henry's entire relationship with Hook happened offscreen, so when we weren't looking he went from not being okay with Emma asking Hook on a date to shopping for houses with Hook. Because we didn't see any of it, we don't know if he's going to the Underworld because he wants to support Emma, because he wants to get out of school, because he figures this will be a good story for him to write as the Author (not that we've seen him do any Author work), or if he's starting to see Hook as a father figure and is determined not to lose another dad. There's really no reason other than Plot for Regina and Robin to go along, especially since Robin has a newborn daughter. If we'd had any little character moments among these people over the past year, we could have connected the dots and known why each person would want to go without a dedicated scene. As it is, they're all going because they're the regular characters.

[YaddaYadda]

For me, they're not going to the Underworld for Hook. They're going to the Underworld for Emma because this is the man she loves, and she's standing there comparing what she has with him to what her parents have. Hook is dead, they don't even know if they will succeed in bringing him back. Emma is going there with this notion that she will be splitting her heart, but what if that doesn't work? What then?

[Curio]

I'll be interested to see what Hook's reaction will be to everyone coming to get him in the Underworld. He's already a bit self-deprecating, so he might not even count on Emma making the trip after all the shit that went down during his Dark Hook phase. But seriously, he's going to see all the regular characters and be really confused about why they all had to make the trip.
 
Emma...you travelled all the way to the Underworld just to bring me back to life? I should have never doubted you, you're bloody amazing.
Henry...aren't you supposed to be in school?
Dave...I'm a bit perplexed why you tagged along, although I suppose you feel slightly obligated to help save my life after you stabbed me in the back and murdered me once before.
Mary Margaret...who the hell is babysitting your baby?
Robin...who the hell is babysitting your baby?
Regina...did you lose a bet or something?
Crocodile...what the fuck.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

I'm sure they'll give him the whole you're family schpeal, because they sort of consider him family every now and then. When David questioned Emma's decision to turn Hook into the Dark One, MM replied that it's what they do in this family, they save each other. This obviously can be interpreted 2 different ways, but whatever.

 

I'm very likely in the minority in this one, but I enjoy the hell out of Regina/Hook when they allow them to talk. They have a very dysfunctional sibling relationship which I like. 

[mjgchick]

I'd be ok with Davids hot and cold with Hook if he was the same with Regina someone who did actually hurt his family and wasn't cursed. But i think he treats Hook in a overprotective way but it's not cute because well Emma's a big girl and can handle herself.

 

I do like Hook and Regina's banter especially since they allow him to go toe to toe with her more than most. But I still prefer Hook with Cora. I think he actually liked her as a friend. lol

Edited January 29, 2016 by mjgchick

[Curio]

I'm very likely in the minority in this one, but I enjoy the hell out of Regina/Hook when they allow them to talk. They have a very dysfunctional sibling relationship which I like.

I actually enjoyed most of their interactions in 5A because Hook is pretty much the only person left on the show who is allowed to call Regina out on her shit and won't get killed for it. After waiting all of Season 4 for Hook to whack her upside the head and tell her Operation Mongoose was a dumbass plan, only for them to not even interact one-on-one for that entire season, their banter in Season 5 was a breath of fresh air. Just about the only thing I didn't like was Regina's retconned appearance in Hook's flashback.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Curio

[october]

I'm very likely in the minority in this one, but I enjoy the hell out of Regina/Hook when they allow them to talk. They have a very dysfunctional sibling relationship which I like. 

 

It's not that I disagree, because this is something I really would like if the show actually developed it. Their conversation on the Jolly Roger in early S3 about villains not getting happy endings could've been a great springboard for this kind of dynamic. But instead the show sidelined that potential in exchange for the (very) occasional barb or snarky comment. I see no foundation for a sibling-like relationship between them, because even something like that requires work.

 

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Hook has zero respect for Regina and actually has every reason to despise her because of her treatment of Emma. In 3A he noticed and intervened when Regina was giving Emma a hard time ('You got us lost!' 'No she didn't') and he complimented Emma on showing patience in dealing with her.

 

While he didn't make a comment about Regina's terrible attitude towards Emma in 4A, there are times you can see him reacting in the background. For example, in 4x03 during the 'looks like the saviour needs saving' scene he rolls his eyes when Regina says 'I hope you're bringing back up' as if he's thinking 'oh, here we go'. And it wasn't lost on him that the situation with Regina's love life was taking its toll on Emma emotionally.

 

As for 5A.... god, where do I even begin? Between giving him shit just seconds after the woman he loved disappeared in a cloud of evil smoke to calling said woman 'stupid' (even though she saved Regina's life) things didn't exactly get off to a great start. Hook was frustrated and angry when he accused Regina of wanting Emma out of the way, but I don't think he would've said it if he didn't sometimes wonder if that was really the case. In the very next episode she's unnecessarily using the dagger to control Emma (something he was passionately against) and pressuring her to use her dark magic to save Robin. Then there's the matter of Hook walking up to find Regina torturing his girlfriend with the dagger, to the extent that he had to rip said dagger out of Regina's hands.

 

Regina isn't Killian's annoying pseudo-sister who pulls his pigtails sometimes. She's the sadist who exploits his girlfriend and makes her feel like shit.

 

I think her behaviour is too toxic for me to find fun in Killian calling her out, because it's not as if it has much effect on the way she treats him or anyone else. I'd want this dealt with if the two started interacting more.

 

 

In terms of Neal's relationship with Emma and vice versa, I was underwhelmed by him as a partner for the Savior and the daughter of Snow White and Prince Charming. He was shady when they first met in the bug stealing scene. But the thing that really bothered me was that he seemed to have no interest in finding her after they were "torn apart" by August's advice and circumstance.

 

I was totally in the same boat. For a show where the first major romantic couple's signature line is 'I'll always find you', it was unthinkable to me that their daughter would end up with a Mr 'Meh, she'll be okay on her own'. A Neal and Emma endgame could've been used as a contrast to the fairy tale element of the show. Not every romance needs to be true love's kiss or 'you traded your ship for me?'. But Neal's behaviour was beyond the pale even by mundane, real world standards. 2A was partly about Emma getting used to having a family and people who wanted to put her first. Neal just didn't fit in.

 

I never took SwanFire seriously, and that's not down to 'CS goggles'. Neal was already worm food by the time I became invested in CaptainSwan and even in Neverland it was obvious which way the wind was blowing with regards to the love triangle. I think MJR was miscast and Neal as a character was a charmless, downbeat, mumbling, emotional coward.

 

As for S2, my trouble with the relationship was that everything they had was rooted in the past (a past filled with pain and regret). Their romantic feelings were lukewarm leftovers from a ten year's dead affair and they didn't need to be together to raise Henry. The show already had an unconventional family tree, so I didn't see them going the Parent Trap root and putting Neal with Emma because he ejaculated over a decade ago. When he said he'd have never gone near her if he'd known who she was, I saw no indication that he was lying or in denial about his feelings. He is someone who had, explicitly and repeatedly, put his own needs ahead of hers. That's abysmal.

 

Instead of showing how present-day Neal and Emma would make a good team, we were given multiple examples of him making her life harder. He disrespected her in front of Henry, doubted her instincts, brought Tamara to Storybrooke (a bad and selfish idea even if she hadn't turned out to be evil), and he made inappropriate cracks about Emma not being over him. Even his apology for sending her to prison was a complete let down. I remember waiting for him to have the visceral, heartbreaking realisation of what Emma would've gone through having his kid behind bars. I wanted to see him realise that he and Emma could've raised Henry as a family if he had chosen differently. But all we got was a soliloquy about his feelings and regrets that rang hollow seeing as he'd had multiple chances to come find her (August practically invited him to town when the curse was broken). I don't care that he was scared she'd never forgive him. Knowing the truth could've brought her closure. But, again, Neal put Neal first.

 

Also, I found it odd that Snow and Charming appeared to have so little problem with Neal despite having enough information to piece together what he did to Emma. There's so much drama there and the show wasted it. That hinted to me that Neal wasn't going to end up with Emma, otherwise the writers would've planted more seeds for future conflict (this was back before I realised how dodgy these writers are though).

 

I think the circumstances I watched S1-3 of the show under may have shaped my feelings about the character as well. The show was already in its mid-S3 hiatus when I sat down to watch. I binged watched episodes from the pilot onwards with few breaks, so I had little time to ruminate between episodes. I wasn't part of the fandom so I knew nothing about actor contract negotiations or spoilers. I think if I was in shipper-space during this time (seeing the arguments and the meta, and reading the interviews that talked up the SwanFire dynamic, etc.) maybe then I'd have considered Neal a contender.

 

But in my nearly completely unspoiled, binge-watching bubble the idea never even entered my mind and if anyone would've suggested it to me I would've found it laughable. All I saw was the guy Emma needed to come to terms with in order to move on with someone else.

Edited January 29, 2016 by october

[Shanna Marie]

For me, they're not going to the Underworld for Hook. They're going to the Underworld for Emma because this is the man she loves, and she's standing there comparing what she has with him to what her parents have.

But then what's different this time from when he was dying before and most of them were telling her she had to let him go? "You love him, and that's what matters to us" applies to gritting your teeth and making it through Thanksgiving when you aren't crazy about your daughter's spouse, but going to the Underworld (and leaving your other child behind) with a half-baked scheme to bring him back from the dead is pretty extreme even for a fantasy show. It also doesn't seem like it would apply to Regina and Robin even if the Charmings and Henry felt that way. While I think that Regina owes Emma big-time for all the hell she went through thanks to Regina's stupid Operation Mongoose because Regina was unhappy with an outcome better than just about anything Emma's ever had, I've never had the sense that Regina feels that way, and she's not empathetic enough to be able to appreciate what Emma's going through, and Robin probably has a tighter bond with Hook than he has with Emma, since he's had two conversations with Hook and I don't recall him interacting directly with Emma. If Hook had been physically carried away, like sucked into an Underworld Portal, dragged onto the boat, or carried away by a Fury, then I could see them taking the "he's a member of our team, and we don't leave a man behind" approach. Of if he'd poofed away and there was no body, then they could have held onto hope and had the example of Rumple and wanted to do something. But when we have a body with the sheet pulled over the face and the coroner carrying him away, it seems a little odd that the whole group is keen on this Underworld rescue mission rather than even one person saying, "I'm sorry Emma, it sucks, and it hurts, but you have to face the face that he's dead. He's an ex-pirate. In time you'll heal and move on, and maybe then you can find a nice guy with two hands who wasn't a pirate."

 

Along with the characters not being allowed to have realistic reactions, the other weird thing that affects the relationships is that everyone has to be on the same page in most cases. It's like Stepford characters. They all feel the same way about each person. So everyone is okay with the Hook rescue mission, rather than maybe Snow holding on to hope and the belief that their family always finds each other while David sees this as a chance for Emma to find someone more appropriate even if Hook died a hero but is guilted into it by Snow, and Regina thinks it's insane but feels guilty about her whining about happy endings now that this has happened to Emma, and Henry's up for an adventure, and I still have no idea why Robin would be on board. Or with Neal, they're now all in lock step, droning "Neal was a hero, we loved him, he saved us." But there should be room for Snow to still be starry-eyed over the idea of Emma's first love, Henry to miss a dad he's idealized in his head, David to acknowledge that he tried to help but be pissed at how he treated Emma, Hook to get a lump in his throat when he thinks of him, and Emma to have a lot of conflicted feelings. Ditto with Regina. Everyone's all "Regina's a hero. She's a totally different person than she was when she was torturing us and killing our loved ones. We must help her find a happy ending." But it would be more interesting if they all had different views based on their personalities and experiences with her. Snow might still be trying to be friends, since she's known her longest, and to some extent, Regina is her Cora as the mother she can't seem to please because the mother has her own agenda. David has no reason to care one bit for her but might tolerate her for Snow's sake. Emma spent a year fighting her and seeing her emotionally abuse her son, then got a good glimpse of the Evil Queen from her own real-world perspective, so I can't imagine her ever wanting to be friends with Regina. Hook might enjoy snarking at her and have some sympathy for a former villain who's trying to turn things around.

[YaddaYadda]

But then what's different this time from when he was dying before and most of them were telling her she had to let him go?

 

How should we know since the writers shy away from relationships that aren't romantic, or antagonistic ones?

 

Robin has exchanged a total of 2 lines with Emma, I don't believe he and David/MM have ever spoken to him even though they are standing in the scenes together. Regina and Hook went 2 seasons not talking. They talked in 3x01, and then one in 5x01. MM spoke to Hook only to say that Emma might be gone. To be fair, she also apologized for what happened in the AU.

 

Are Robin and Hook buddies? We don't know. And MM seems to approve of Emma and Hook's relationship by things she says here and there, but David runs hot and cold on the whole thing. I'm pretty sure Hook and David haven't actually talked since 5x02 when David asked Hook his intentions towards Emma, and he was shut down real quick on that one.

 

I think Regina is going to the UW because she feels she owes Emma, something that Hook drove home in 5x01, and Robin is tagging along because reasons. Emma's parents go because they want her to be happy, and this is something they might be able to give her since they haven't been able to give her much.

 

And Henry is going because I think he's attached to Hook, but the relationship has been developed off screen. We went from I'm not sure but I want you to be happy to they go sailing together, to you're nothing but a dirty pirate, to I've had a great teacher, to them hanging out and choosing a house, and joking around about the left hook, to Henry sort of looking shocked and possibly devastated by the death.

 

Maybe he was devastated because Emma has just come completely undone, or maybe he's devastated because he actually really likes Hook, or maybe it's a little bit of both.

 

I hate this show so much sometimes, because it's a guessing game. 

 

Well maybe it's this, and maybe it's that, but wait, no, it's got to be something else. 

[Curio]

Along with the characters not being allowed to have realistic reactions, the other weird thing that affects the relationships is that everyone has to be on the same page in most cases. It's like Stepford characters.

 

Responding in the writers thread.

[Rumsy4]

Robin is the guy who let Neal use his kid as shadow-bait because he felt he owed Rumple for not killing him or something. So he probably felt he owed Emma for saving his life in Camelot. But even so, it's just beyond comprehension that he would leave a newborn infant in the care of the nuns (whom he personally does not know) to take a trip to the UW.

As for Snow and Charming, this is the first time they are actually working for Emma's Happy Ending. So at least that is understandable. For once they are putting Emma first, instead of expecting her to put others first.

[Dianthus]

In addition to feeling obligated to Emma, maybe Robin's also going for Henry? IDK.

[mjgchick]

They talk even less than Hook and Henry. At least we got those two talking in S3. On screen too.

[Dianthus]

I was thinking of some pix I saw on the spoiler thread.

There's the possibility we might get to see Robin and Henry interacting on screen. OTOH, it might've just been a moment between the two actors.

[Faemonic]

Regina isn't Killian's annoying pseudo-sister who pulls his pigtails sometimes. She's the sadist who exploits his girlfriend and makes her feel like shit. I think her behaviour is too toxic for me to find fun in Killian calling her out, because it's not as if it has much effect on the way she treats him or anyone else. I'd want this dealt with if the two started interacting more.

(...)

I think the circumstances I watched S1-3 of the show under may have shaped my feelings about the character as well. The show was already in its mid-S3 hiatus when I sat down to watch. I binged watched episodes from the pilot onwards with few breaks, so I had little time to ruminate between episodes. I wasn't part of the fandom so I knew nothing about actor contract negotiations or spoilers. I think if I was in shipper-space during this time (seeing the arguments and the meta, and reading the interviews that talked up the SwanFire dynamic, etc.) maybe then I'd have considered Neal a contender.

(...)

But in my nearly completely unspoiled, binge-watching bubble the idea never even entered my mind and if anyone would've suggested it to me I would've found it laughable. All I saw was the guy Emma needed to come to terms with in order to move on with someone else.

That's a refreshing perspective on Regina-Hook relations, first because I did see a lot of potential between them of the sibling rivalry kind that I do wish the show would go in the direction of, and second because I always read the exact same argument with the characters swapped around and can't say much more than that setup is...kind of really wrong. The goggles of That Other Ship make it out like Hook was a verbal abuser and forced Henry and Emma to this and that, but have Regina coerce Emma with the dagger and it's "oh, get a room you two" which is an uncomfortable double standard. To notice Hook's background reactions to his beloved's toxic step-grandmother sheds new light on the situation.

Too bad that all of the things just never gel. I think it was a TWoP recap of one of the Neverland episodes (it might even have been Good Form) where Emma talks about how she would count the days from one foster home to another, and Regina has half a second to look as though she'd come to an uncomfortable realization. That doesn't gel with the crowning victory Regina had at the thinking tree when she says she doesn't regret anything that led her to Henry. Yay, down with Papa Pan, but...implications...

So, if an episode script comes out in the future that suddenly has Hook and Regina be the bestest friends forever, and be family, and flashback of them sharing True Love's Copping A Feel in the carriage on the way to Papa Jones' tavern...I just know all of those background reactions that Colin made an acting choice out of are going out the window to be forgotten forever. (And Hook's a polarizing, but popular, character. It's not much of a reach that once These Writers glom onto how cool and interesting he is, they'll give him to Regina.)

I'd like them together only if it were light years more organic than that, which I must recognize would be unlikely at This Show, but I still can't say it's impossible on principle.

 

With Neal, I figured they were setting him and Emma up as the more prominent mid-game only because Baelfire and Emma are original characters. Structurally, it made too much sense not to happen, although I really loathed the execution. While I'd hoped it would be another subversion of tired tropes that are bad for society, Nealfire left too soon. He could have stuck around to make things complicated (emotionally, not just "brave storytelling choice means PLOT TWIST!") I think the last time I saw a believable conversation on this show was Emma's celphone call to Snow about finding Nealfire again. By that, I don't even mean that I blame Neal for being the herald of the PlotPlotPlot show, I mean there was something there they could have really plumbed and they didn't.

 

Robin is the guy who let Neal use his kid as shadow-bait because he felt he owed Rumple for not killing him or something. So he probably felt he owed Emma for saving his life in Camelot. But even so, it's just beyond comprehension that he would leave a newborn infant

Nah, Robin would totally leave Pistachio for shadow-bait if the Plot called for it.

[Free]

Robin is the guy who let Neal use his kid as shadow-bait because he felt he owed Rumple for not killing him or something. So he probably felt he owed Emma for saving his life in Camelot. But even so, it's just beyond comprehension that he would leave a newborn infant in the care of the nuns (whom he personally does not know) to take a trip to the UW.

 

Maybe it wouldn't have been as bad if we actually saw some bonding moments instead Roland is just used as a plot device for contrived danger so Regina can save the day.  It's even worse with the new baby that just gets left behind mere scenes after getting it from Zelena.

[KAOS Agent]

 

Regina isn't Killian's annoying pseudo-sister who pulls his pigtails sometimes. She's the sadist who exploits his girlfriend and makes her feel like shit.

 

I found Hook's truth bombs as Dark Hook showed just how much he'd been bothered by the way she treated him. It was interesting to have him comment on her horrid nicknames for him like "One Handed Wonder" It seemed like Hook spent a lot of his time as normal guy Hook biting his tongue about that kind of thing just to keep the peace, but names that make fun of his handicap must sting. My guess is that Regina's comment about him being Emma's pirate mascot in 4B also fed into his anger about how people see him as Emma's faithful puppy. He's well aware that in some ways others see him not as a person in his own right, but only as an accessory that they associate with only because of Emma. Regina is pretty much number one on that list. It's too bad that only "evil" people are allowed to call Regina out on her hurtful comments and name calling because normal people should be able to express how unhappy they are with her "sassy" treatment of them.

 

Hook & Regina don't have a sibling relationship. It's more of the same type of careless abuse that Regina flings at everyone that no one is allowed to react to. Regina/Hook could be interesting if they discussed things like they did in the S3 premiere about villains and happy endings. Maybe they could uncomfortably discuss how they feel about trying to be with someone who's a "hero" and the insecurities surrounding that. Sadly, Robin is a nonentity who isn't really his own person and Regina is his soulmate, so internal drama between them doesn't happen and Hook wouldn't be allowed to discuss Regina's deficiencies with her anyway. Where Captain Swan is able to discuss these problems between Emma & Hook, Outlaw Queen just pretends they aren't there. Hook's got some wisdom to share in this department, but I don't think Regina would listen even if he tried.

Edited January 30, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[Curio]

Hook & Regina don't have a sibling relationship. It's more of the same type of careless abuse that Regina flings at everyone that no one is allowed to react to.

 

This is why a lot of Regina's relationships ring false because all the characters have to walk on egg shells around her or become pushovers just to please her. Hook lashing out at Regina about her use of bullying nicknames was cathartic for me as a viewer because finally someone had the nerve to point out how rude that is, but of course that was done when Hook was a Dark One and technically under its amped-up evil powers. I feel like the writers are trying to give Regina the Sawyer (from LOST) treatment where she gives everyone snarky nicknames and all the writers and casual viewers find it humorous, but when Regina does it, it comes off as hypocritical and bitchy. The next time Regina calls Hook "The Handless Wonder" or "Guyliner" in front of Emma, why can't Emma stand up for her boyfriend and say, "cut it out"? If one of my "friends" made a rude joke about my boyfriend, I'd call them out on it. Whenever the characters stay silent, that makes them look bad because silence often equates to agreement.

 

There are so many double-standard instances where Regina is allowed to call someone out but everyone else bite their tongues that it deserves its own sub-trope on tvtropes.org.

 

At least Robin appeared to take a small step towards becoming less of a pushover around Regina when he stopped her from using a fireball on Zelena when she came to visit the baby. He mentioned something like "we talked about this" when Regina raised her fireball hands. Why didn't we get to see that conversation on screen? How did Robin approach discussing that topic? Did he just say, "Hey, I know you hate your sister and have anger management issues that I inexplicably find sexy, but please refrain from killing her in front of my newborn daughter"? 

Edited January 30, 2016 by Curio

[mjgchick]

Sawyers nicknames seemed harmless because I don't think he called any of them as a way to tear people down compared to Regina. I really wish Emma was there when Hook showed his displeasure of Regina's "nicknames" maybe then she'd see that he does have insecurities about those things. At least she knows he doesn't like to be controlled though. He's also clearly not ok with Rumple almost killing both he and Emma. The problem I have with this is since Hook was saying all of these things while evil does that mean we were suppose to disagree with him? Or what about when Emma told Regina to take care of her own problems early in the season? She said it as Dark Swan but on another show that would actually be a really good thing to say to someone as destructive as Regina.

[Camera One]

Or what about when Emma told Regina to take care of her own problems early in the season?

 

That was DarkEmma being a big meanie.  Though the lesson of the episode wasn't Regina learning to take responsibility but her learning that everyone is pulling for her, even Grumpy and strangers like Arthur.

 

The events of that episode ("The Price") should have led to some relationship drama.  Both Hook and Snow told Emma in Camelot that she should just let Robin die.  Did that lead to a really awkward buffet breakfast the next day?  What did Robin himself think of what Emma had to do for him and what Regina got Emma to do?  How did Charming deal with killing Percival?  Shouldn't he have been catatonic with a black spot on his half-heart for taking the "easy" way?  How did coming face to face with a victim of her reign of terror change Regina?  Meanwhile, the people in Camelot were fine with the newcomers killing of their exalted heroes?  Did Arthur even care that one of his 2 best friends died?  

 

All of the fallout could easily have replaced all the scenes with Zelena the pointless handmaiden, and Merida the most pointless guest of the year.  Percival's death could have provided a more believable reason for Arthur's descent into evil.  His muahahahahahahaha flip was the most cartoonish thing we saw this half-season.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

This is what's been so different about Hook and Emma as Dark Ones. Hook did what I was expecting Emma to do. I thought Emma would be the one to call people out on their shit, which did not happen. 5x01 and 5x02 was the only time Emma said anything that was a "criticism". 

 

Meanwhile Hook is telling Regina that she really hasn't changed all that much, and I can see his point, he did get killed in the AU after all because she got that show on the road, he called out Gold, and he called Emma out.

 

I don't know why. Is it because the viewers will take this better coming from Hook than they would Emma since people seemed to have a meltdown at the idea of Dark One Emma, or something? 

 

The things I was expecting Emma to do, Hook ended up doing all of that. And this relationship is still the most sane thing this show has.

[KAOS Agent]

I was hugely disappointed that they refused to allow Dark Swan to have it out with her parents. They can say all they want that Emma/Charmings have a great relationship, but they mostly just paper over the cracks. If Hook was allowed to call out Emma and Captain Swan is undeniably solid, why couldn't Emma call out her parents on some of their crap? Then when the show ignores it again, they can pretend it was just the Darkness making Emma say those things, but fans who really want that family to hash it out would have at least gotten something out of it.

[Camera One]

Hook can call out Emma because there is a much greater chance that those characters will actually get quality screentime to work through it.

 

 

 

they can pretend it was just the Darkness making Emma say those things, but fans who really want that family to hash it out would have at least gotten something out of it.

 

I doubt these fans would have gotten any more out of it than when it happened in 4A in "The Snow Queen" before they completely ignored Emma/parents again in the subsequent episode "Smash the Mirror" even though the writers got an extra hour.  

 

And is the satisfaction in just seeing Emma "call them out on their crap", or actually seeing Emma and her parents work through those issues and come out stronger? I guess it depends on the viewer, but for me, the latter would be a lot more rewarding and deep.  

 

But are the Writers willing to give it screentime?  The answer is no.  They even felt the need to invent a whole new eggnapping/lying plotline in 4B in order to create a conflict, when there are already so much existing issues to deal with.  And in 5A, they didn't even write ONE scene between just DarkEmma and her parents in the entire present-day timeline.  If that doesn't tell us the Writers' priorities and biases, I don't know what does.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

I was hugely disappointed that they refused to allow Dark Swan to have it out with her parents. They can say all they want that Emma/Charmings have a great relationship, but they mostly just paper over the cracks.

 

Ditto.

 

That's really what I was looking forward to the whole time, and I ate the ending of 5x01 with a ladle because Emma came off as threatening to her parents, Regina, even Hook whom I couldn't even believe would have done something so terrible that Emma would turn on him. 

 

They were so far off the "we didn't deliver" mark on this one. Even what Emma told Henry in 5x02, with the it's not you, it's everyone else...

 

I have the sads all over again.

Edited January 30, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

They even felt the need to invent a whole new eggnapping/lying plotline in 4B in order to create a conflict, when there are already so much existing issues to deal with.

And of course the one Emma/Snow/Charming serious talk we could have had in 4B happened entirely offscreen during a commercial break. We went from Snow and Charming worrying about having to tell Emma the truth to skipping over the entire confession. That was the moment I realized we would never get any proper family relationship development ever again. Why on Earth would you skip over the most dramatic part of a conversation just to skip to the aftermath?! Just because the audience already knew the secret? I like how that offscreen moment was so glaring that a reporter even asked Adam & Eddy about why we skipped it.

[Curio]

From another thread:

I've been thinking for a week or so that at the end of the series, Belle might end up the one who is left high and dry, with no happy ending. 
 
If they write in Emilie's pregnancy, Rumple will likely make an effort to change because of the baby, not because of her.

If they don't write in the pregnancy, Rumple will keep being an asshole.

If there's some kind of battle between good and evil, and Rumple dies, she loses the guy she's built her life around.

If there's some kind of battle between good and evil, and Rumple survives, how does she react to that? Belle doesn't seem to be interested in normal Rumple.
 
Belle needs to cut her losses.

 
I know that it's TS;TW, so of course Belle and Rumple will end up being a True Love™ couple at the end of the series, but Belle can do so much better than Rumple at this point. After the Dark One Switcheroo Rumple pulled over Hook and Emma when he was supposedly a "hero" with a pure heart in the 5A finale...that's the final straw. Belle can't keep using the Dark One as an excuse because Rumple was a completely human, normal man when he made that decision. 5A did a lot to whitewash Rumple's past actions because if we're able to forgive Emma and Hook for the things they did as Dark Ones, then we have to unfortunately throw Rumple a bone for having to deal with the same curse. But the fact that he was willing to let Emma or Hook die without letting them know that they were secretly giving their power to Rumple again is inexcusable. If Belle is able to forgive him again, then I give up. Because Rumple lying to Belle isn't just a one or two-time thing, it's becoming an alarming pattern.

 

Best case scenario for Belle is that she gets to join the heroes on an adventure to Atlantis some time in Season 6 or 7 and meets Milo Thatch, a genuinely good man who's smart, humble, would appreciate Belle's intelligence, and is willing to look for adventure. Oh, and he also enjoys reading, translating old texts, and libraries. Look at that! They have shared interests! (What shared interests do Belle and Rumple even have?) Belle and Milo could geek out over their love of books and traveling, but because this show will still want to force Rumbelle down our throats until the bitter series finale end, they'll only remain close friends. Flash forward to the series finale where Rumple meets his inevitable demise. Belle is heartbroken and left alone with Baby Gasfire (Gaston + Baelfire), but during the epilogue, the audience gets to see that she meets back up with Milo and it's hinted that they get together for good.

[Camera One]

I'm still sad that they could have done some really good stuff with Rumple dealing with being magic-less/dealing with consequences and Belle getting to know Original Recipe Rumple, but nope, we got NONE of that in favour of the Merida/Rumple's a Hero! crap, and yet another betrayal to boot, to the point that Rumbelle is now irrevocably ruined.  A&E will no doubt claim that a baby will change all and we'll get another round of Rumple the Human Yo-Yo.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Camera One