Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Amerilla]

There's really no reason other than writer disinterest that an Emma/Belle friendship couldn't work. There's plenty of fodder for discussion. Belle grew up in the world Emma would have lived in had it not been for the curse; Emma's lived in a world that Belle really hasn't gotten to see. They could fill in a lot of blanks for each other about their respective fates, about the lives they could have or would have lived. Plus, hey, both spent time in prison thanks to their attraction to the 'Stiltskin gene pool and both have faced off against dragons at one point or another. Not many people have that in common.

It is sad that we don't know for sure that the main characters don't know the major facts about their closest family members. I think even the writers aren't entirely sure, or they forget that while they've shown us stuff, the characters don't necessarily have a reason to know these things because they're never allowed to talk to each other or ask each other questions.

I'd go with "pathetic," more than "sad." It's writer malpractice.

It is sad that we don't know for sure that the main characters don't know the major facts about their closest family members. I think even the writers aren't entirely sure, or they forget that while they've shown us stuff, the characters don't necessarily have a reason to know these things because they're never allowed to talk to each other or ask each other questions.

That whole thing drives me crazy, because I'm sure I saw a deleted scene of Emma and Regina physically fighting over Graham's death in a storeroom or something....but it has to have been a dream. And that's really weird, because I don't like Regina or Emma or Graham enough to waste precious dream-time on them.

So Belle, once she learns from Hook about what happened to Rumple's wife, never asks Rumple for his side of the story and for more details.

She might have. There's a lot of footage we never get to see - because they by no means release all deleted scenes - so it's entirely possible she asked Rumpel and he gave he some line of bullshit and it all got cut....but in the minds of the showrunners, since #ItHappenedOffscreen, it happened, we just didn't see it.

I go the other way: there's no reason that Belle would necessarily believe Hook at that point. Their entire relationship to that moment had involved him lying and hurting and attempting to kill her. Having him standing there with a gun jammed under her chin, you could argue that fear alone blotted out a lot of what he was saying, since she was focused on trying to escape. With everything that was going on in that episode, you could plausibly see why Belle would table that for later discussion...and later just never came.

Ultimately, it's a writing issue. The show sees Milah as a issue just between Rumpel and Hook. It's purely the catalyst for their feud. I really feel like, from the writers' perspective, Belle and Emma have nothing to do with it, and thus have no reason to really ask about it. It's ancient history between two ancient beings.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Amerilla

[KAOS Agent]

 

Anyone else, they'd be dead three seconds after he strutted over the Town Line. But with Belle, he wasn't angry, or vengeful, or confrontational. He stayed in the shadows and was cloaked himself in guises that she wouldn't find frightening. This was the opposite of how he had reacted to Milah's abandonment - here, he gives Belle her heart back.

 

Going back to this because it made me laugh. I understand the implications being made and it could be interesting storywise if the writers cared to explore it in a decent manner, but this basically says that the bar is so low for the relationship that "he didn't kill her" is considered to be the height of romance. When stalking Belle and invading her privacy in the guise of her friends is a positive step on Rumpel's road to being a better person, I start to question the idea of True Love.

 

I'd also look at the motives for giving the heart back. Belle's heart was being used to manipulate Rumpel in a manner similar to the dagger (although he obviously had a choice to save Belle or let Regina crush her heart). Once again, Belle is shown as a massive weakness for Rumpel. Leaving her heart in someone else's hands is a big problem for him, so returning it aids him as well. It's not all altruistic and hearts and flowers. Further, if the AU thing didn't work out, he was a dead man anyway, so at that point, there's little need for him to attempt to get her back.

 

On the David/James thing, David's story as the shepherd was in the book. There were cuts to David's story in the storybook in "The Shepherd" like they did for much of Season 1.  Anyone who'd read it should know about the shepherd dragon slayer. 

[Rumsy4]

At least Rumple loved Belle enough to not kill her or maim her boyfriend. However, I find it hard to credit Rumple too much for his noble restraint. For one thing, doing any kind of dark magic would have been fatal to him at that point. And for the other, the AU scenario made it all moot anyway. He could have at least let Belle to chose her own life in the AU. But he had her cast as the stay-at-home mom and adoring wife he had wanted Milah to be. Sure--it was Isaac who wrote the AU, but Rumple could have easily asked him to leave Belle alone. 

[Curio]

At least Rumple loved Belle enough to not kill her or maim her boyfriend.

 

Tell that to Gaston.

[Rumsy4]

Tell that to Gaston.

Oops! And Belle unwittingly contributed to it. lol

[Amerilla]

Yeah, I'm not arguing it's Grand Romance. In fact, I don't think it has much to do with romance at all from the storytelling perspective. I think that's just scaffolding. But they way they approached his reactions to Belle's rejection and Will's "competition" relative to his past reactions to similar stressors in the past clearly plays into his overall character arc. Does it have any bearing on how he goes on in this new phase? Who knows. TW;TS.

[KingOfHearts]

With Belle, Rumple had to keep an image and appear that he deserved a second chance, at least a little bit. He could do just enough evil deeds to get his crap done, but keep it so low-key that Belle could look the other way. With Milah, he was mad at her anyway so he didn't give a flip if he killed her and maimed her boyfriend because she left Bae. He had no intention of working it out with her. Also, Will is manipulable while Hook was definitely not. If Rumple can use someone to his advantage, he'll often spare their life.

 

It all sounds creepy, and it is, but it's how Rumple works.

 

 

I really don't see how they can organically dredge up Graham's death at this point.

That ship has long sailed. If Emma found out about it now, it would just be, "Oh well that's what Regina used to be. I'm besties with New!Regina who would never do that!"

 

However, it made no sense that it never came up in Emma's mind soon after the curse broke. In fact, there were a lot of things that should have made her rethink of all the stuff that happened during S1... Regina gaslighting Henry, the Kathryn murder case, the fact she had been living with her mom this whole time, Jefferson, pretty much everything Henry said, etc. There had to be some thinking time when Team Princess was trekking through the woods. Something like, "Hey wait a minute... Regina DID kill Graham! He started to remember, so he defied her, and she had to get rid of him! When I get back home, I'm putting that woman behind bars..." Which, by the way, would have been a much better method of turning on Regina than the Cricket kidnapping.

Edited September 2, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

However, it made no sense that it never came up in Emma's mind soon after the curse broke. In fact, there were a lot of things that should have made her rethink of all the stuff that happened during S1... Regina gaslighting Henry, the Kathryn murder case, the fact she had been living with her mom this whole time, Jefferson, pretty much everything Henry said, etc. There had to be some thinking time when Team Princess was trekking through the woods. Something like, "Hey wait a minute... Regina DID kill Graham! He started to remember, so he defied her, and she had to get rid of him! When I get back home, I'm putting that woman behind bars..." Which, by the way, would have been a much better method of turning on Regina than the Cricket kidnapping.

 

S2 was a giant dropped ball. They never truly addressed the consequences of the Dark Curse, other than to say "we are both" and completely drop it. It was extremely disappointing. Sending MM and Emma to the EF right at the beginning of S2 was a big mistake. But by then A&E had already got on the plot-plot-plot- train, I guess.

 

 

With Belle, Rumple had to keep an image and appear that he deserved a second chance, at least a little bit. He could do just enough evil deeds to get his crap done, but keep it so low-key that Belle could look the other way. With Milah, he was mad at her anyway so he didn't give a flip if he killed her and maimed her boyfriend because she left Bae. He had no intention of working it out with her. Also, Will is manipulable while Hook was definitely not. If Rumple can use someone to his advantage, he'll often spare their life.

 

That's an excellent point! Belle has been his cheerleader for so long, unlike Milah. While I don't think Will is necessarily manipulatable, he certainly was no fratboy pirate.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Rumsy4

[KAOS Agent]

 

But they way they approached his reactions to Belle's rejection and Will's "competition" relative to his past reactions to similar stressors in the past clearly plays into his overall character arc. Does it have any bearing on how he goes on in this new phase? Who knows. TW;TS.

 

I think it would have been interesting to further explore this, but then they basically reset his character at the end of the season. They can now do whatever the hell they want with him and just explain anything different as the actions of the Dark One. It's open to a total cop out because his character as we know it no longer exists. I so desperately want Rumpel to return to the manipulative magic-less bastard from S1 and then we can watch how Belle deals with the "real" man with no Dark One interference. Can Rumpel be a decent person and will True Love actually make him a better man? Or will he continue to suck and screw over everyone in his path to maintain his safety net of power? 

[KingOfHearts]

 

While I don't think Will is necessarily manipulatable, he certainly was no fratboy pirate.

Well, Hook is very stubborn and has no fear for Rumple. Will had a much better chance of being utilized and taken advantage of. For example, Rumple was able to use him to get Belle's heart back. 

Edited September 2, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

With Belle, Rumple had to keep an image and appear that he deserved a second chance, at least a little bit. He could do just enough evil deeds to get his crap done, but keep it so low-key that Belle could look the other way. With Milah, he was mad at her anyway so he didn't give a flip if he killed her and maimed her boyfriend because she left Bae. He had no intention of working it out with her.

I think that's the big key. Rumple wanted to get back with Belle, and based on previous experience, he had good reason to believe that he could get back together with Belle. After all, she fell in love with him after watching him torture Robin and didn't ditch him after learning that he'd murdered his wife and seeing him beat multiple people almost to death. She's very forgiving. All he had to do was act rueful and contrite, and her "he has a good heart!" programming would kick in, so he had incentive not to do anything to harm her or her new boyfriend and maintain the illusion. With Milah, that ship had already sailed (sorry, couldn't resist). By the time he ran into her again, he'd moved on, and he knew she'd moved on. He didn't want her back and knew he wouldn't get her back. In fact, that seemed to be why he killed her -- she told him she'd never loved him. He had no incentive to be nice to her.

 

I suspect things would have gone very differently with Belle if she'd been angry and defiant with him and had managed to hold on to that anger. If she'd told him when he came back that she'd decided she was wrong about him and he'd never had a good heart, and she never wanted to see him again, and if she'd managed to sustain that for more than five minutes, she'd probably be dead now.

[Selina K]

That whole thing drives me crazy, because I'm sure I saw a deleted scene of Emma and Regina physically fighting over Graham's death in a storeroom or something....but it has to have been a dream. And that's really weird, because I don't like Regina or Emma or Graham enough to waste precious dream-time on them.

 

I'm glad you mentioned this, Amerilla, because I am also sure this happened, in very much the same way.  It was like some kind of alternate scene right after Emma believes and confronts Regina in the hospital storeroom and says something like, "Graham, that was you too, wasn't it?" and then they have the fight.  i have no idea where I saw it, but I'm 100% convinced I saw it.

[Camera One]

Was there an extended cut from the Season 1 finale?  That was when that closet fight happened.  These were the only deleted scenes from the S1 DVD I could find:

http://www.spoilersguide.com/once-upon-a-time/season-1-dvd-bonus-11-deleted-scenes/

 

The lines in the script for that scene were:

 

Emma: You did this!

Regina: What the hell are you doing? Stop this! My son-

Emma: Is sick because of you! That apple turnover you gave me? He ate it!

Regina: What? It was meant for you!

Emma: It’s true, isn’t it?

Regina: What are you talking about?

Emma: It’s true, isn’t it? All of it.

Regina: Yes.

Emma: I was leaving town. Why couldn’t you just leave things alone?

Regina: Because as long as you’re alive, Henry will never be mine!

Emma: He’ll never be anyone’s unless you fix this. You wake him up!

[Amerilla]

Selena K, that is almost exactly what I remember!  We can't both be crazy! (Can we??)

 

I keep thinking it was some little background scene in the special they did before S2, but the people who should know keep saying it never happened. 

 

When Regina was using Belle's heart as leverage against Rumple, why didn't she take it with her?

 

I think they boxed themselves in on the writing with that one. As it was, they've been tap-dancing around Saint Regina taking Belle's heart without Belle's consent since the episode aired. Since Saint Regina couldn't actually hurt Belle as a matter of storytelling, it's usefulness as "leverage" was pretty limited anyway. You can't really have Regina cheerleading Emma to stay on Team Goody-Goody when she has Belle's cherry-red heart glowing away in her coat pocket. Plus, Rumpel needed a side-project in the gear up to the finale anyway.

[Delphi]

I'm glad you mentioned this, Amerilla, because I am also sure this happened, in very much the same way. It was like some kind of alternate scene right after Emma believes and confronts Regina in the hospital storeroom and says something like, "Graham, that was you too, wasn't it?" and then they have the fight. i have no idea where I saw it, but I'm 100% convinced I saw it.

I also remember that being said during an argument. So it's not just you two.

[Dianthus]

Damn! I don't remember that at all, but I would've loved to see it. Regina has been beating Emma up (metaphorically) about being short-sighted in her actions (saving someone's life, FFS!), but suffering zero consequences for her own short-sightedness in turn. It really grates my cheese!

[Camera One]

I keep thinking it was some little background scene in the special they did before S2, but the people who should know keep saying it never happened.

 

I wonder where it was from.  This was the transcript from the recap right before S2 and it doesn't seem to have it:

http://onceuponatime.wikia.com/wiki/Once_Upon_a_Time:_Magic_is_Coming/Transcript

Edited September 2, 2015 by Camera One

[Souris]

I remember seeing that storeroom scene, too!

[Amerilla]

Ok, there is a storeroom fight scene in the S1 finale - right after Emma brings Henry into the ER. Maybe it's just that we think Graham was mentioned (because that's where it should be) and he's not?

Edited September 2, 2015 by Amerilla

[Delphi]

I just watched the fight scene on Netflix, sometimes they dub things or air different versions. But no difference. Mandela Effect?

[orza]

The storeroom scene happened and was a big deal but Graham was never mentioned. It was all about Henry.  If it wasn't in the original script, as quoted above, there would have been nothing to film.

[Souris]

How odd that we all tied the storeroom fight to Emma finding out about Graham.

[Amerilla]

How odd that we all tied the storeroom fight to Emma finding out about Graham.

 

Either we're conflating something non-canon we read or heard in an interview with the scene itself....or, it's because Emma had figured out everything else by this point, and here is the logical place where something like that would come up. It was the obvious loose thread.

[Curio]

How odd that we all tied the storeroom fight to Emma finding out about Graham.

 

Probably because that's the kind of reaction Emma should have had to finding out about Graham's death.

 

or, it's because Emma had figured out everything else by this point, and here is the logical place where something like that would come up. It was the obvious loose thread.

 

I remember watching that scene the first time around and waiting for Emma to mention Graham's name, and then the episode ended and they never tied up that loose thread and I rage "quit" the show for a bit because of it. And then it somehow roped me back in for "The Crocodile."

 

But seriously, writers. How can you not have Emma know about Graham, and how can you not have Robin Hood know about Regina torturing Marian, and still have them be Regina's BFFs?

[orza]

Everyone has secrets, something bad they have done and gotten away with that no one has ever found out about. It isn't unusual at all. Look at the rate of unsolved crimes. Those are all bad things that people have gotten away with and will likely never be held accountable for. It happens and is a normal part of life.

[Camera One]

That's an interesting point.  In real life couples, I wonder how often bad things done in the past are never mentioned.  And often, friends and relatives who know the secret won't tell either.  Emma and Hook knew what really happened to Marion, but maybe they thought that would be hurtful to Robin to know.   So maybe they didn't say she was sentenced to death.  Though Zelena posing as Marion would surely have used it to turn Robin against Regina, unless she also didn't know about it since she wasn't in Regina's castle.  

 

I guess the main difference on a TV show is viewers often want payoff for secrets.  In Season 1, there was an expected payoff when Emma found out what happened to Graham.  A&E themselves used that strategy when they stretched out Snowing keeping the secret from Emma so they could do the payoff of Emma blowing up at them and shunning them.  

Edited September 3, 2015 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

I think they boxed themselves in on the writing with that one. As it was, they've been tap-dancing around Saint Regina taking Belle's heart without Belle's consent since the episode aired. Since Saint Regina couldn't actually hurt Belle as a matter of storytelling, it's usefulness as "leverage" was pretty limited anyway.

 

It's not because I wanna defend Regina but I've always assumed that the reason Regina went to Belle in the first place was to ask to take her heart. And the reason she told her to forget what happened was because of the stuff Regina talked through Belle's heart to Rumple, saying that Will was a better kisser, that she did not miss Rumple and so on.

 

I think that's what Regina didn't want Belle to remember as opposed to the fact that she took her heart because I'm pretty sure Belle would have been upset at what Regina had her spewing.

[Souris]

But seriously, writers. How can you not have Emma know about Graham, and how can you not have Robin Hood know about Regina torturing Marian, and still have them be Regina's BFFs?

 

Forcing the latter is exactly why they have the former.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think that's what Regina didn't want Belle to remember as opposed to the fact that she took her heart because I'm pretty sure Belle would have been upset at what Regina had her spewing.

I'm sure Regina just wanted to keep her record clear, yeah. I'm divided on that scene with the "better kisser" remarks. Part of me was happy to see Rumple get blasted (like a mouthpiece for the audience), but the other part sees Regina continuing to enjoy the misery of others despite how redeemed she is. That's probably a character trait that's never going to go away. Lana relishes in it.

Edited September 3, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

Part of me was happy to see Rumple get blasted (like a mouthpiece for the audience), but the other part sees Regina continuing to enjoy the misery of others despite how redeemed she is.

 

Yeah, but Regina owes Rumple nothing. If there's one person she doesn't owe anything to, it's him. Plus Rumple had Zelena watching over Robin and threatened his life if she didn't help out, so her relishing in his misery is fine in my book. The relationship between Rumple and Regina is fucked up. He pushed her over the edge long ago and she tried to do the same with him, though that might have been stupid since she knew there wasn't much left to unleash full on gooped Dark One.

 

I wouldn't mind if Regina and Rumple declared war on each other. I'd even encourage that kind of development. There was that deleted scene when Regina finds out/deduces Rumple's feelings for Belle and she starts messing with him. While Lana is way over the top, I actually wouldn't mind scenes like that between them but in the present.

[KingOfHearts]

I wouldn't mind if Regina and Rumple declared war on each other. I'd even encourage that kind of development. There was that deleted scene when Regina finds out/deduces Rumple's feelings for Belle and she starts messing with him. While Lana is way over the top, I actually wouldn't mind scenes like that between them but in the present.

I really miss their power struggles from S1 and in the EF flashbacks. The actors have a lot of chemistry and their scenes together were almost always fun to watch. Their enmity and unlikely alliances kept viewers on their toes.

 

 

Yeah, but Regina owes Rumple nothing. If there's one person she doesn't owe anything to, it's him. Plus Rumple had Zelena watching over Robin and threatened his life if she didn't help out, so her relishing in his misery is fine in my book.

It wasn't bad, per se. It was just kind of a reminder that Regina can still get crazy eyes.

Edited September 3, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[mjgchick]

I love when Regina one ups Rumple. Actually I love it when anyone does it to him which is why I'm ok with Zelena. She and Ingrid were one of the only ones Rumple couldn't really win over. I love to hate his guts.

Edited September 3, 2015 by mjgchick

[KAOS Agent]

I miss all the antagonistic relationships from Season 1. It made everything so much more interesting when these enemies were forced to work together in a common cause. For all this show wants everyone to be friends, it just isn't realistic given all the horrible things that have happened. It also removes a hell of a lot of drama. Everyone being friends and just running around chasing the villain du jour is highly unsatisfying. Instead of Mayor Mills & Emma having to work together to help Henry with enmity making their interactions spark, now we have Regina making nasty comments to her "friends" and them just taking it. Regina's interactions haven't changed a bit because she's sassy, but everyone else tends to react like doormats instead of responding like they used to which is not only dissatisfying, but mystifying in terms of why anyone would put up with a friendship like that. The main characters' interpersonal relationships need that antagonism back desperately.

[Dianthus]

orza, on 02 Sept 2015 - 5:19 PM, said:

Everyone has secrets, something bad they have done and gotten away with that no one has ever found out about. It isn't unusual at all. Look at the rate of unsolved crimes. Those are all bad things that people have gotten away with and will likely never be held accountable for. It happens and is a normal part of life.

So these people should feel no compunction against berating their victims? We just say "too bad, so sad" and go on as if nothing happened? Regina has openly stated that the only thing she regrets is gas-lighting Henry, yet we're expected to believe she's redeemed and deserving of a happy ending. I call bullshit on that. 

[Serena]

I'm glad you mentioned this, Amerilla, because I am also sure this happened, in very much the same way.  It was like some kind of alternate scene right after Emma believes and confronts Regina in the hospital storeroom and says something like, "Graham, that was you too, wasn't it?" and then they have the fight.  i have no idea where I saw it, but I'm 100% convinced I saw it.

I vaguely recall this. Could this be the way Matt Mitovich *said* it happened? Can someone find the video where he says it? I'm pretty sure any info we got about this, we got from him. 

[Camera One]

You've got it!  And when Matt is describing it, they cut to a line from that scene from the closet where they're actually talking about Henry so that's how it got into our minds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkJnTx8MMrc#t=3m55s

Edited September 3, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

Ah! This is the definition of a mindworm. Because I too have a "memory" of Emma mentioning Graham in that scene. Unless it did actually happen A&E did a memory wipe on us all a la Regina. ;-)

...how can you not have Robin Hood know about Regina torturing Marian, and still have them be Regina's BFFs?

He must know that Marian wasn't exactly getting spa treatment in Regina's prison. He just doesn't care. Edited September 3, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

He must know that Marian wasn't exactly getting spa treatment in Regina's prison. He just doesn't care.

This is where I can't believe that they planned the "Marian is Zelena" thing all along, and I won't believe it unless I'm shown evidence that this was planned ahead of time, because you know that Zelena as Marian, wanting to ruin Regina's life, would have told Robin in excruciating and possibly even exaggerated detail every single wrong Regina did to Marian and described her dramatic last-second escape before execution. Getting her heart frozen and then using that as an excuse to force Robin to leave town with her couldn't possibly have been her Plan A. Plan A had to have been turning Robin against Regina, and then when she got frozen and he didn't turn against Regina, she used the frozen heart as an excuse. Which means that since it's now canon that Marian was Zelena, Zelena was sure to have told Robin all about her suffering at the hands of Regina, and he still chose Regina over "Marian" and had to be nagged by Regina into leaving town with his wife in order to save her life. And I'm sorry, the "he sensed something was wrong and that's why he couldn't really reconnect with her" thing doesn't work because, you know, maybe the reason something seemed wrong might have been that the woman had been imprisoned, was on the verge of execution, and then was suddenly yanked into a strange world. Even the real Marian would have had a massive case of disorientation and PTSD and might have come across as "wrong" or different. No matter how you slice it, Robin comes across as a real creep.

 

As for the Regina, Graham, and Emma issue, I figure that since Emma does know that Regina nearly murdered Henry in trying to murder her and is okay with Henry splitting his time between her and Regina, knowing about Graham wouldn't change things on that front. The logical time for the information about Graham to come to light would have been in 4A, when Regina was throwing a hissy fit about Emma ruining her life by saving her boyfriend's wife's life and Emma was afraid to get involved with Hook because of what happened to Graham. It was relevant to both those situations, because Regina was in "can dish it out but not take it" territory. Really, watching what was happening with Hook as Rumple started to crush his heart might have made the lightbulb go off for Emma as she saw what it looked like when someone was having his heart crushed and she realized that's what Graham looked like. Unfortunately, that wouldn't have fit the writers' narrative, since it was important to their plot that Emma want to be friends with Regina at that time.

 

The issue for me isn't whether or not Emma knows or ever finds out. The key for me is that Regina knows, and the fact that she didn't seem to have thought about what she did to Graham and how it compares to what she believes Emma did to her and that she let Emma apologize and grovel while she maintained her "the universe is out to get me" position makes their so-called friendship very fake and hollow. It cant be a genuine friendship if Regina knows she wronged Emma in a worse way than she was accusing Emma of wronging her and hasn't come clean or even shown any awareness of how it affected Emma. It's one thing being in a relationship of any kind with someone you know did things in the past and has changed and moved on, but it gets icky to me when one of the people actually did something awful in the past to the other person in the relationship and hasn't come clean about it.

[YaddaYadda]

This is where I can't believe that they planned the "Marian is Zelena" thing all along, and I won't believe it unless I'm shown evidence that this was planned ahead of time, because you know that Zelena as Marian, wanting to ruin Regina's life, would have told Robin in excruciating and possibly even exaggerated detail every single wrong Regina did to Marian and described her dramatic last-second escape before execution. Getting her heart frozen and then using that as an excuse to force Robin to leave town with her couldn't possibly have been her Plan A.

 

Probably not, but she also made Regina believe she could have Robin towards the end. She "stepped" out of the way, made Regina think she was bowing out of this whole thing before she pulled the rug from under her. Give her hope then dash them.

 

It's more genius than whispering in Robin's ear about how horrible Regina was to her (Marian). Robin called Regina bold and audacious. How much would his moronic ass have sided with Marian especially since he's so in wuv with Regina?

[Shanna Marie]

Probably not, but she also made Regina believe she could have Robin towards the end. She "stepped" out of the way, made Regina think she was bowing out of this whole thing before she pulled the rug from under her. Give her hope then dash them.

But was that Plan A, or was that working with what she had when Plan A didn't work? Who could possibly have anticipated that Robin would end up choosing Regina over his long-lost wife and the mother of his child, especially when it turned out that Regina was responsible for him losing his wife in the first place? And she certainly couldn't have planned on Ingrid freezing her (and Ingrid admitted doing it, so it wasn't just Zelena faking it for drama). Up to the point Ingrid froze her, "Marian" was bristling at every mention of Regina. Robin had chosen her. So it would make sense (yeah, I know, TS;TW) for her initial plan to be to take Robin away from Regina by playing it up as the long-lost wife facing her tormentor. But then when she got frozen and Robin ended up going back to Regina, she'd have to come up with a new plan, and thus her "letting" Regina have him, only to fake the heart freezing that would require him to leave with her.

 

I still think that's all wildly out of character for Zelena, but that's a different thread. On the relationship front, there's no way to not shudder in horror at Robin's behavior regarding his wife. I guess he and Regina kind of deserve each other.

[YaddaYadda]

But was that Plan A, or was that working with what she had when Plan A didn't work? Who could possibly have anticipated that Robin would end up choosing Regina over his long-lost wife and the mother of his child, especially when it turned out that Regina was responsible for him losing his wife in the first place?

 

Does it really matter if she was working on Plan A or Plan Infinity + 1 so long as she got what she wanted? 

 

I'm pretty sure Zelena didn't have a clue who Marian was when she killed her. She just wanted to get back to the present, that was her plan.  Maybe she would've worked on trying to turn the town against Regina by reminding them what Regina tried to do to her if Emma hadn't saved her. Her first attack against Regina was to call her a monster. I think Robin and Roland were just a happy accident. 

[Shanna Marie]

Does it really matter if she was working on Plan A or Plan Infinity + 1 so long as she got what she wanted?

No, but my original point was that I can't imagine Zelena-as-Marian not telling Robin horrible stuff about what Regina did to her (even if it was all made up, but still, based on what we've seen, there might have been accidental truth to it) to go with her public "Monster!" accusation. Which makes it even worse for Robin to still have chosen Regina over the woman he thought was Marian. From Robin's perspective, he got back a traumatized woman who'd been through all kinds of stuff, and he couldn't resist the woman who was responsible for the trauma, even while the woman he believed to be his long-lost wife was near death and he believed the only way he could save her was by remembering his love for her. Which goes back to what I was responding to that even if she said nothing, he had to have known it wasn't a happy vacation in Regina's dungeon, and he still chose Regina. The only thing he was torn about was his wedding vows and the fact that he was technically still married to Marian, since she turned out to be alive. He never said anything about having any qualms about Regina's role in the whole thing. And I figure it had to be even worse than that because I can't imagine Zelena not casting a little shade on Regina in her role as Marian. Real Marian might have tried to take the high road (though I think she totally would have called Regina out), but Zelena? Ha!

[Rumsy4]

The logical time for the information about Graham to come to light would have been in 4A, when Regina was throwing a hissy fit about Emma ruining her life by saving her boyfriend's wife's life and Emma was afraid to get involved with Hook because of what happened to Graham. It was relevant to both those situations, because Regina was in "can dish it out but not take it" territory. 

 

Emma finding out about Graham would have been the perfect thing to make her go Dark. All Gold needed to do was tell Emma, instead of concocting an elaborate plan involving Cruella, Isaac, and the magic quill. There was no need for the writers to invent the eggnapping plot either. 

Edited September 3, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Curio]

There was no need for the writers to invent the eggnapping plot either. 

 

But how else would Emma have gotten mad at her parents? There were absolutely no scenes to choose from within the show's established canon where Emma could have gotten mad at her parents. There was no scene of her parents admitting that Emma wasn't what they wanted in a daughter, there was no scene of her parents awkwardly naming their child after her ex, there was no scene of Snow yelling at her because of Emma's haywire magic...

Edited September 3, 2015 by Curio

[mjgchick]

That still pisses me off. How you're going to give the Charmings angst but then relegate them to the back of the bus. Then their are scenes where Snowing are loudly whispering their angst about some secret where they kidnapped an egg. Yet we spent a whole season hearing how the villains were forced to be one because some author wrote them that way instead of them having their own choices to be douchebags to others just because they didn't get their way to be awful people.

[Camera One]

But how else would Emma have gotten mad at her parents? There were absolutely no scenes to choose from within the show's established canon where Emma could have gotten mad at her parents. There was no scene of her parents admitting that Emma wasn't what they wanted in a daughter, there was no scene of her parents awkwardly naming their child after her ex, there was no scene of Snow yelling at her because of Emma's haywire magic...

 

Emma getting mad is only one component.  There also has to be a way to make Snowing look like depraved sanctimonious hypocrites, which is so much worse than committing evil deeds and being upfront about it.

 

As you said, there were so many interesting aspects of the Emma/parents relationship to explore, and they had to invent some contrived unbelievable crap which ended up being pointless in the end.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Camera One

[Delphi]

I'm pretty sure Zelena didn't have a clue who Marian was when she killed her. She just wanted to get back to the present, that was her plan. Maybe she would've worked on trying to turn the town against Regina by reminding them what Regina tried to do to her if Emma hadn't saved her. Her first attack against Regina was to call her a monster. I think Robin and Roland were just a happy accident.

But not only did she know Robin's name after being brought back. Which she could have known by happenstance, she also identified Roland immediately, so she'd have to have some clue as to who Marian was. Unless you know they just completely pulled the idea oUT of thin air.

[orza]

But not only did she know Robin's name after being brought back. Which she could have known by happenstance, she also identified Roland immediately, so she'd have to have some clue as to who Marian was. Unless you know they just completely pulled the idea oUT of thin air.

Zelena knew about Robin and Roland from the missing year in Fairytale land. She was also transported back to Storybrook with everyone else and saw then around town with and without Regina. We've seen that Zelena is smart and can think on her feet. It's not a stretch that she could quickly figure out from Robin's reaction to her who Marion was.

[Curio]

It's not a stretch that she could quickly figure out from Robin's reaction to her who Marion was.

 

We also know Zelena had her flying monkey spies patrolling the realms during the Missing Year (she said something to Hook about her spies "always lurking," so I guess she could have kept tabs on Regina's new love interest). Where the whole Zarian thing gets weird is how she behaved when she was pretending to be Marian. I can hand wave Zelena learning Marian's thoughts and memories or whatever, but we definitely should have seen more or Zelena-as-Marian telling Robin how awful Regina was to her. As it stands on screen, we don't even know if Robin knew anything of what went down because we never got to see the conversation.

 

But I don't think the writers wanted to touch that with a 10 foot pole (even though they're the ones who set up the story that way...) because it would have been hard for the audience to root for Regina and Robin to get together if Marian kept accurately telling Robin how Regina tortured her, paraded her around a village with a bag on her head, and planned to have her killed. No matter how many times the people on this show can say, "Oh, but she's changed so much," it still makes Robin come off looking like a total ass for not caring about his wife's feelings on the matter.

[orza]

Zelena's goal was not to destroy Regina, rather, her stated goal in I forget which episode was to take over Regina's life, including her boyfriend, so she could watch Regina suffer on a continuing basis as she enjoyed everything she had taken from Regina. It would have been a very stupid mistake to tell Robin how awful Regina was and what bad things she did. Going to someone and badmouthing the person he is madly in love with always backfires. One will not be believed and will in almost all cases be seen as a jealous shit-stirrer. That is the last thing Zelena would want if her goal was to keep Robin for herself,