S05.E06: Episode 6

[minamurray78]

4. It would impact Sybil and Edith. Though for how long? It wasn't unreasonable to think Robert would live to see them married off (in fact he outlived one daughter). So while it was important as far as dowries go, it wasn't vital. For one thing Cora's fortune was not entailed. They could be willed dowries and stipends independent of the estate. So the only 'betterment' the younger daughters would get is the grace to not be kicked off the estate and, honest to God, does anyone think spinstered Edith would've been worse off left to the mercy of Couisin Matthew and Lavinia than she would be left to Mary?

 

If I remember correctly, Cora's money was tied to the estate. Robert's father had seen to it, so that the estate would never run out of funds, like it almost had previously. Robert only had daughters, Mary being the eldest but female therefore not a suitable heir for the title, so her marrying Patrick would have kept the money (Cora's money) inside the family. When he died, Violet tried with different lawyers to break up the entail (even Matthew at some point), if only to release the title, but keep the estate and the money within the Crawleys. Here my memory gets foggy: either the title would go with the estate, leaving the heir without the money, or maybe just the title, I'm not sure. At any rate, it was Robert who decided not to fight it, 'cause he didn't want to leave Matthew as a lord with no land, or with the lands and no money to support it. I remember when Cora's mother comes for a visit, she kinda jokes (but not really) about how come a total stranger gets to inherit her husband's money.

Still, the girls had a dowry or wathever, set apart for them, separate from the estate's money. I believe that was never in jeopardy, not even after Robert's blunder, so I agree it had no impact on them. I think Edith mentioned it in S1, that no matter who ended up being the heir (Matthew or Mary), Sybil and her would still get the same, so the outcome of fighting the entail was of no concern to them. They were both expected to marry and leave the house anyway at some point.

But yeah, the biggest deal about Patrick dying and Mary not being the heir, was that Cora's money would go along with the title and lands to a virtual stranger for them.

I realize this is off topic for this ep, sorry, but this entail business gave me so many headaches in s1.

Edited October 29, 2014 by minamurray78

[ZulaMay]

The family understands that she is upset they just don't know that the situation is a lot more complicated and upsetting than she has led them to believe so I feel like they're working with what Edith is giving them.   The family knew that Gregson was interested in Edith and vice versa but they have no way of knowing that it was a much deeper affair and that a child resulted from the union. Knowing these facts IMO would make a huge difference with everyone's behavior. 

 

This has nothing to do with whether they know about the baby.  I never said it did.  What they saw was her being devastated when she got the telegram at breakfast.  A couple of episodes ago she was spotted running up the stairs in tears.  Cora and Robert both knew and said it would still be a terrible blow for her even though he had been gone two years.  Because as Anna said, "he just died for her today."  And again, the man left his business to her.    That suggests a much stronger relationship than "he was interested in her."  They didn't know they had a baby....but they knew she loved him, they knew she was devastated by the news of his death.  That was all they needed to know to be sensitive to the situation and acknowledge it for at least ONE day.

 

Edith hasn't really given her family the chance to help her or be supportive or comforting because she won't tell them what she needs or what she's been going through all of this time. 

 

Never mind "all this time."  Never mind the past two years.  She has given Robert a chance to be supportive, actually, when she talked to him about it earlier this season.  And he was.  The man was murdered, for God's sake.  And she loved him, and she meant enough to him that he left her his business.  They all saw her at breakfast and they all saw and knew that she was in pain, and they knew why.  There was no more hope.  She finally knew for sure he was dead.

 

I am saying that they had full disclosure and all the information they needed to be sensitive to her pain, her grief, her loss, on THAT day.  And they were not.

 

 It starts to feel a little unfair to me though when she just expects her family to treat her situation as though were a newly widowed mother when they have no idea that is in fact what is going on. 

 

She didn't "just expect" anything of the kind.  A woman who just found out the man she loved was murdered has suffered a serious loss too.  She was angry because Mary knew knew that Edith was devastated and without skipping a beat went out for makeover and staged a big debut for herself that very afternoon.  Edith specifically said she was upset that she chose to do this on "the day (she) found out the man (she) loved was dead."  She is fully aware that they don't know about the baby and doesn't expect them to act as if they do. 

 

Once again, the baby has nothing to do with it.  Edith was not asking for or expecting sympathy or respect as a widowed mother.  She was asking for sympathy and respect as a sister and daughter who had just found out that all hope was lost and the man she loved had in fact been murdered.

 

I disagree. I think they carry on because they're trained to do just that. They come across as people who try not to dwell on unpleasant things and would especially try not to do so in public or during family meals. Edith has been shown as having the same trait in the past.

 

I never suggested they should be displaying grief themselves, or discussing it extensively during dinner.  But there is a huge difference between "not dwelling on unpleasant things" and "not showing respect for your sister/daughter's loss and grief."  Mary doesn't have to feel sad about Michael or dwell on it.  If she wants to go get a haircut, fine.  But for her to make a BFD about it, parading and twirling around the room so everyone could ooh and aah and then going straight into planning a jolly picnic? That's different.

 

​Mary was highly insensitive to Edith's feelings, as we saw when she snarked about it to Anna and then said Edith wasn't worthy of Michael's love.   She said she wouldn't say that "out of the room", but her behavior clearly demonstrated her attitude.   And as soon as Edith called her out on it?  She basically DID say it in front of everyone:  "Oh, come on, we all knew he was probably dead, party pooper! GTF over it, I'm trying to show off my haircut!" As if her behavior wasn't bad enough already, she poured salt in the wound and mocked her publicly. 

 

The family does get back to business quickly after a loss, it's true.  But not that quickly.  Six months after Matthew died the whole house was still dancing to Mary's mournful tune.  I know he was her husband, and it was fresher, but we're talking about six months.  They were wrapping her in cotton wool and walking on eggshells around her.  Including Edith.  All they needed to give Edith, and should have given her, was one day, maybe two.  Mary didn't give her two minutes, and by going along with her celebratory scene the family also showed their insensitivity.  Especially when Cora told Edith she was being "unfair."

 

 

Edited October 30, 2014 by ZulaMay

[Featherhat]

The thing was (and still currently is for most aristocracy) that even if Robert had 3 sons, only one of them was going to inherit Downton. If Robert was a wealthy man he could afford to see is "spare" sons settle into something they liked doing and/or provide them with an income, if not it was the army or the clergy for you with a small number sidestepping that and choosing scholarship. So Mary being regarded as the "heir" and Chatelaine of Downton in the event they could detach Cora's (father's) money and/or Downton from the Earldom of Grantham wasn't specifically unusual. Neither Cora nor Violet campaigned for Edith or Sybil to gain equal access, they wanted Mary to marry a Duke to make up for it. Harsh but it still has predicent today even outside of non aristocratic circles. I found the Mary/Robert convo in S1 about that quite well done. Mary's icy rage that she wasn't a boy/can't be declared Earl as a Woman and Robert's 3rd Sibling/4th Child/caretaker speech was excellent in capturing two POV of the time and making them both understandable if not necessarily agreeable.

 

That's one of the reasons that Cora should have been equally or more concerned that Edith and Sybil should "marry well" because it was unlikely that they would get much from the estate. Her path could have been very much like Mrs Bennet of Pride and Prejudice infamy. Daughters to marry off  asap so they don't starve or depend on hand outs from a distant cousin who inherits, whom they know nothing about. Obviously not exactly the same as they do possess many more advantages than the Bennets but the issue is not one million miles away. IF Mary (or now her son) inherits Downton via marriage the extended family still has a home. IF a stranger who marries Lavinia gets everything including most of the money then they can be theoretically chucked out into the streets with nothing if he so chooses with law to back him up. Possibly including Violet and Cora in a Dower House depending on the exact provisions. And a theoretical "Bad Earl" could make live extremely miserable for a woman in the Dowager position who wasn't his Mama.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Featherhat

[DianeDobbler]

I forgot and can't BELIEVE Cora told EDITH she was being unfair to Mary. Mary decided to go ahead and get her hair cut at the same time she knew Edith was getting the news Gregson was dead. And she required an audience to show it to. The day Edith got her news. Edith objects - how dare Edith object. Having your feelings matter over stuff you should have got over is a Mary privilege, or a Robert privilege - an anyone but Edith privilege. Robert acted out more over realizing his services weren't actually required in the military than Edith did over Gregson, and that was Robert's ego. Edith is treated as someone who mustn't dare take up any room, as someone who has to operate inside strict parameters or she'll be tuned out, and the others can be as self-indulgent as they like.

 

However much I disagree with both Rosemund and Violet's handling of Edith's situation, Rosemund, via the actresses acting, the writing, and what was said, has demonstrated she cares. Edith matters to her. She never acted as if it were the world's most tedious burden and the idea of having to pretend to care about it was really too much to ask considering everything else on her plate, and why was Edith such a trial. She went to considerable time and effort for Edith. Violet never acted that way either; never acted as if just anything to do with Edith having her own life was too boring for words. I definitely do not get the impression they are spending this effort solely to avert a family scandal. Edith matters.

 

It says something to me that two rather self-absorbed members of the extended Crawley family managed to be interested but her parents cannot be interested. Her parents are supposed to be somewhat warmer, nicer, less conventional than her aunt and grandmother. Mary won't even ride astride - in 1924 - with her grandmother watching. It says nothing good. They treat her with zero respect.

 

I really dislike any scriptwriting that overtly tells us that the double standard matters, that WHO it happens to counts more than what. I don't mean in obvious structural ways, such as leads versus background players, but Edith is a featured character on Downton, a member of the core family, and I just can't stand that Mary's haircuts and point-to-point displays on horseback are more important than Edith's child, and the loss of Edith's one love, not just in assigned screen time, but in attention paid by the other characters, who are fascinated by the former and bored to tears by the latter. This is instructional storytelling of the worst kind.

 

Other stuff:  as the writing has declined markedly, the acting becomes more important. The casting becomes important. IMO the only casting success since Matthew's death is Raquel Cassidy as Baxter (I mean permanent additions, not guest stars or recurring). IMO Dockery isn't standing up to the demands of holding the center of the show as the stories flag. IMO as well, Lily James is always alive - just look at her face when the telegram arrives. She plays Rose as full of empathy, feeling, even if Rose has nothing to do in a scene. Allen Leech likewise. Not saying that's the only choice - it doesn't suit every character - but actors need to find something to make the scene important, even if the script is hopeless. As the stories have flagged, I've become more frustrated that an actor/character who needs a good story to be interesting (Dockery/Mary) continues to get lead focus, while newer actors who do fantastic stuff with very little continue to be treated as afterthoughts, even though they're perfectly positioned to have a strong story.

 

I think the two Mary suitors are rather middling, but the guy who played Gillingham appeared a thousand times more relaxed, convinced, and younger (and actually charming) in his brief byplay with the actress playing Mabel Lane Fox than in his entire two series storyline with Dockery. I guess I put it down to that actress, who can infuse dreary dialogue with conviction and energy, communicates that to her scene partner, and it's contagious. Furthermore, it was very easily conveyed that Gillingham/Lane Fox knew each other very well, had history, from the actors, and not from the lines of dialogue. Mary/Gillingham, to me, relied entirely on dialogue.

 

I'm on the fence about the actor playing Atticus - he's a nice, accessible, endearing sort of good-looking in a classical way, but this past episode was the first I thought - oh, he was cast because he can convey "NICE" in such a genuine, natural way. I'm wondering if there are other notes.

Edited October 30, 2014 by DianeDobbler

[shipperx]

Storytelling-wise I think they lost the plot for Mary when they lost any stakes in it.

Mary has Downton. She has suitors out the whazoo but doesn't actually want any of them so its hard to care about the triangle or quadrangle or whatever it is. Mary can barely bring herself to care, so why should l? And even if she did care, there would be nothing at stake. Is there any question whatsoever that when the show is over that Mary will have whatever it is she wants --whatever that might be? Is there any chance whatsoever that Fellowes wont give his favorite character a happy end? Violet, Robert, or Isis might face the grim reaper. Isobel may or may not marry her charming lord. Tom might never find someone new to love. Edith probably never will. We can hope for something for those characters and there's uncertainty in whether they'll get what they want. With Mary it's difficult at this point to know what she wants while at the same time there is complete assurance that if she wants anything she'll get it. Fellowes really, really needs to give Mary a thwarted desire for something -- anything. Right now the best he's pulling off are irritating tidbits of haircuts, messing with a rival who is only a rival in Mary's head, and tweaking the libidoes of two men she does not actually want. That's not working so well for me.

Edited October 30, 2014 by shipperx

[DianeDobbler]

 

With Mary it's difficult at this point to know what she wants while at the same time there is complete assurance that if she wants anything she'll get it.

Fellowes wants "us" to want what Mary wants. That's the problem he hasn't solved in two series. Mary can want a million things, and he can't make us care. She can get them, and he can't make us care. Many fans cared about Matthew/Mary. He didn't make us. It just worked, despite his best efforts at miserable scriptwriting in Series 2.

 

I feel the way I've felt with other showrunners - until we care about what he (Fellowes) cares about, nothing good will happen to anyone we already care about. Tom, Thomas, Edith, Sybil, whomever - will have to wait. All wait on her.

 

Due respect to the fans of each actor, when they cast Gillingham and Blake, did they really think this would re-invest fans, or was it simply that they thought the main success of Mary/Matthew was down to Dockery, and the actor opposite didn't matter so much? They didn't credit the combination?

 

[ZulaMay]

Yes I think that was part of it.  Michelle got nominated for an Emmy and Stevens didn't.  And to some degree he made it look so effortless that it was hard to see how much he was really bringing to the table.  He was an essential ingredient to their chemistry, more so than people realized IMO.  And that's very apparent now.  That, plus he played a more likable, accessible character that people saw as less "complex."  That's a much bigger challenge in many ways and he didn't get enough credit for it.

 

But it's true that there is absolutely nothing at stake with Mary because (a) she has no real problems or needs and  (b) once she decides what she wants there is a 100% guarantee she will get it.  There's no tension.  And right now, as far as I can see, no emotional journey at all. And her horrid, completely unjustified behavior toward a fundamentally sympathetic character (her sister) doesn't make me care what happens to her or whether she gets what she wants.  I certainly don't give a shit if she wins a horse race.  I would rather she'd fallen off of the damned thing.

 

I expect she will have a "fall" and then have to journey back toward happiness, as she did after she and Matthew ended their engagement the first time.  But she was sympathetic then because she was young, confused, made a mistake.  Now?  She really has no excuse for being so immature and petty, she doesn't need to marry anyone, and unlike with Matthew she doesn't really love anyone.   She seems bored - bored enough to have to upstage Mabel for no good reason - and as a result I find her boring.  And rather detestable.

 

Diane, I also really like Mabel and the actress playing her.  She's full of beans.  She manages to be intimidating without being off-putting.  And although she is rich, pretty and confident, she  doesn't seem to take herself quite as seriously.  

Edited October 30, 2014 by ZulaMay

[vesperholly]

I think the two Mary suitors are rather middling, but the guy who played Gillingham appeared a thousand times more relaxed, convinced, and younger (and actually charming) in his brief byplay with the actress playing Mabel Lane Fox than in his entire two series storyline with Dockery. I guess I put it down to that actress, who can infuse dreary dialogue with conviction and energy, communicates that to her scene partner, and it's contagious. Furthermore, it was very easily conveyed that Gillingham/Lane Fox knew each other very well, had history, from the actors, and not from the lines of dialogue. Mary/Gillingham, to me, relied entirely on dialogue.

 

That is a textbook illustration of chemistry and lack thereof between actors. Mary and Gillingham have NO chemistry, Mabel Lane Fox and Gillingham had loads. Mary and Matthew had loads. I'm not sure if Dockery is regressing in her skills or simply being partnered with dreadful actors. Not to mention her character is being written without any shade or subtlety at all - I've been rewatching series 1 recently and Mary had a lot more heart/character development back then. She wasn't such a superficial bitch.

[Andorra]

I think you all give Julian Fellows not enough credit. Or I give him too much. I don't see that he wants us to want what Mary wants. I think writing these two scenes where Mary displayed her cold and selfish behaviour towards Edith was NOT there to applaud her. It was there to show us how dysfunctional this family is. I don't think at all that we were supposed to be like Cora and tell Edith "oh now you're unfair". It showed how clueless Cora is and how bad the relationship between Edith and her family is. Otherwise why are the reactions as they are? If Fellows wanted us to care more about Mary's hairdo, why are people all over the internet calling Mary a "C_unt"? Why is this thread mainly about Mary's ice cold selfishness?

 

I also think that it was important that Gillingham and Mary didn't have chemistry. If they didn't want them to end up together, it was important that the audience didn't get behind it. The same with Sarah/Tom. Allen Leech was so visibly trying not to get too near to her or to show any romantic interest, that I'm sure it was deliberate and directed.

 

IMO Mary and Blake don't have chemistry either though, which is suprising if he's supposed to be endgame. I still don't believe he is. Otherwise I would be very surprised. It would indeed be bad casting and personally I don't have any indication that the casting is anything but very good so far.

[ZulaMay]

Then who is End Game?  They drag out these two guys for two seasons and then chuck them?  Talk about Shaggy Dog Stories.

 

Are they going to bring in Atticus' older brother in S6?  Bring back Evelyn Napier, Chekhov's Hangdog Suitor?  

 

I just can't figure it out.

 

I agree we are meant to see that Mary is acting selfish and petty, though.  And that perhaps it will lead to a fall that will cause her to lose whichever one she wants, or fail to recognize whom she wants until it's too late.  But as last time, they can give her a "redemption" arc and eventually bring him back to her.

 

So I am not convinced Charles isn't end game.  I think they have chemistry of a different kind, the "banter" kind.  She is still interested in him, even if not romantically or sexually at this point.  Something keeps bringing her back.  I like the actor.  But he's no Matthew.  And therein lies the problem.

 

But again, I think we were meant to see her behavior as horrid because it seemed so OTT even for her.  I think we were meant to see that Edith's family had finally gone too far and driven her away, at least for now.  That's why I am surprised to see some people defending them.

[kpw801]

I think you all give Julian Fellows not enough credit. Or I give him too much. I don't see that he wants us to want what Mary wants. I think writing these two scenes where Mary displayed her cold and selfish behaviour towards Edith was NOT there to applaud her. It was there to show us how dysfunctional this family is.

 

Then he is making a serious blunder.  I read the article where Fellowes was asked if he was ever going to let Edith be happy and he basically said some people are just "unlucky" so it sounded to me like Edith was just never going to have a happy ending.  This is the reason I don't watch horror movies.  For me, life is scary enough already as a divorced mother of 3 on my own with deadbeat dads and making a marginal living as a scecretary.  I can't deal with superficial horror and scaring myself for no reason.  I am going to stop watching if he continues to shower misfortune on this character.  I have enough misfortune in my own life I guess I can't stand to see misery on a weekly basis.  We all get involved with a character and see Edith's despair after Anthony Strallen jilted her publicly.  We watched her develop her gift for writing into a regular column and "find something to do" after being scolded about moping by the Dowager.  We saw her soldier on with her column while her father tried his best to break her confidence and told her she had nothing to offer but her title.  All this and then we see her fall in love with a man that values her mind as well as who she is and finds her glamorous and desirable only to have him disappear with her dreams of marriage once again, but this time saddled with a bastard daughter and a family that thinks she is dreary and at the most "helpful". 

 

I swear I can't take it any more.  If this series ends with Mary again the Queen of all, and Edith given another black eye by Julian Fellowes, I am not going to watch the next series.  I will do crossword puzzles or something.  I have had it!

 

IMO Mary and Blake don't have chemistry either though, which is suprising if he's supposed to be endgame. I still don't believe he is. Otherwise I would be very surprised. It would indeed be bad casting and personally I don't have any indication that the casting is anything but very good so far.

[ZoloftBlob]

If Fellows wanted us to care more about Mary's hairdo, why are people all over the internet calling Mary a "C_unt"? Why is this thread mainly about Mary's ice cold selfishness?

 

Because despite Season one, which was excellent, the writing on the show hasn't been very good for the last few years and there's really no indication that it will improve? I mean, we've spent close to two years now watching Mary twirl in a circle around Tony and Charles and she doesn't seem to like either.

[shipperx]

I think --at least I hope--that we were to think Mary's behavior towards her sister to be unduly harsh. That doesn't solve the writing problem of there being absolutely no stakes within Marys story. She doesn't want either Gilliam or Blake. Lane-Fox is only a rival over...well...nothing. Boredom? Ego? There's nothing at stake there either. And she already has Downton and the heir. And she has the blanket approval of her family for pretty much any and/or everything. What exactly is her plot here? What is the engine driving it? What is at stake here that is supposed to make an audience want to know what's next for her? At this point the character's writing issues are not so much aristocratic privilege but protagonist privilege. She comes with guaranteed lead role and an assured happy ending yet there's little conflict in her story, just pithy remarks, lovely vistas, and nice clothes.

Edited October 30, 2014 by shipperx

[ZulaMay]

She's kind of like Violet with romance and stylish clothes.  But Violet has never had a character arc of any kind:  she just meddles and makes caustic and witty remarks.  Which is fine for her, but not for the protagonist.

 

I almost think of Edith as the true protagonist, albeit with less screen time.  She's the one with real problems, the one on a journey as a character and a person.  That's what a protagonist should be....except without so much preposterous bad luck and sense of hopelessness.

[DianeDobbler]

kpw, and in addition to the Job-like arc you describe, it gets very little screen time, very little embellishment. So the message is twofold - nothing good will happen to this character AND she's not important anyway. Her troubles/feelings don't count. Not as much as Mary's haircut. That's an extremely disheartening subtextual message.

 

We may be meant to see Mary's behavior as OTT, but I don't know if we're supposed to want her punished, or just enjoy her as we're supposed to enjoy Violet. In the assignment of screen time, Fellowes is saying I know you're going to tune in more for Mary's hair and her point-to-point antics with the boys and Mabel Lane Fox than you are for stupid Edith and her problems. In that sense, the writing backs up the terrible things that are said to and about Edith. Hell, Fellowes would rather write scenes talking about her than scenes with her.

 

 I've said before Dockery is no Maggie Smith. For me, she's not pulling off the enjoyably entitled, often chilly aristocrat with surprising pockets of niceness/open-mindedness/unselfishness. It's dreary and empty and blah. She's not a "creature." You know, somebody interesting in their own right, as I believe a young Maggie Smith could have pulled off, although granted, at some point every actor needs a story. Mary needs something at stake.

 

I also agree Mary had much more vitality in Series 1. I rewatched the hunt that featured Pamuck, and when she came in from the hunt rather disheveled Mary seemed quite young and excited, trying to keep herself composed, but the "young" pushed through. When Mary slapped Edith after finding out Edith had written the Ambassador, she was truly angry. As silly as I think the Pamuck thing was, as easily handled as I believe it could have been, it was played as having real stakes, and Mary appeared to feel that when it happened.

 

Now, Mary just doesn't give a sh*t. She doesn't seem angry at Edith. She didn't seem genuinely upset that Edith tried to squash her haircut parade. She was just contemptuous. How dare Edith believe her petty grief trumped Mary's entitlement to the spotlight for a haircut. Not an angry "How dare Edith". She had no feelings about it.

 

If she's this terribly bored I'd suggest perhaps she DO something other than get her haircut and bolster her ego by trampling over her sister's feelings and proving the family cares more for Mary's hair than they do Edith's grief. I agree Edith is more of protagonist. She's done more in her life than Mary has even attempted.

[kpw801]

Exactly!!  I think the only time Mary seemed to progress as a character was when she began caring for Matthew and when he was sick and when she had Lavinia stay at the abbey rather than alone at Crawley house.  She was much more likeable and we could see that she was suffering and regretted listening to Aunt Rosamund and letting the "love of her life" go.  We were invested in her pain and happy to see her get her heart's desire (even though she didn't deserve it).  But with Edith, we are asked to watch her pain and longing and we are just as invested in her happiness but there is never any resolution.  I felt just as cheated when she was jilted as she did!

 

I would love to see Anthony Strallen come back into her life.  He doesn't have an heir to his estate and she has proven she can bear children.  Anything but watching this Groundhog Day loop of perpetual disappointment.

[shipperx]

With her in publishing I wish some age-similar not-unfortunate-looking writer would become interested in Edith and not frightened off by her scandal. But I honestly don't think Edith will ever get another romance so I just hope she can manage the publishing business and raise her daughter without the sky falling in on her and hope that at least Tom might possibly, maybe, PLEASE get a love interest that is neither horrid nor a sibling of his dead wife.

And I honestly don't worry about Mary. If they have her decide she wants someone she'll have someone. If she decides she wants to be gloriously independent she'll thrive at that. She's guaranteed a happy ending.

Edited October 30, 2014 by shipperx

[DianeDobbler]

I would love to see Anthony Strallen come back into her life.

 

Me too. I know he was cast as and spoken of as the dreary living end of husbandly prospects, but he and Edith had a real connection. It was romantic, the sort of relationship that's fun because from the outside, it looks like this no-hope girl hooks up with some Jane Austen heroine's reject, but the secret was they enjoyed each other's company, had a lot in common, and were well-matched. Little did people know they were actually happy! Fellowes ignored that Carmichael was very persuasive in her character wanting to marry Stallen and not being the least repulsed/disappointed by the idea. Thank heavens her family intervened. If they hadn't, Edith would be mistress of her own estate and heir to her husband's fortune. That was a near thing, huh. Now she's an unwed mother with a dead baby daddy, living at her parental home and the recipient of her elder sister's contempt. We're meant to believe she has an income - her writing and some of grandpa's money, so when her parents die she might be able to purchase a flat in town or something rather than leave herself to her sister's tender mercies.

 

I just thought it was obvious Stallen and Edith would be happy together and the sudden opposition of the family seemed perverse and cruel. I really can't stand how they show no interest in Edith themselves, but do their best to sabotage anyone else's interest in Edith as well.

[Avaleigh]

I just thought it was obvious Stallen and Edith would be happy together and the sudden opposition of the family seemed perverse and cruel.

 

 

I thought Anthony dumping Edith at the altar was cruel. He's the one who put an end to the relationship. He told her that he felt she'd be wasting herself on him. That's how Anthony felt and he says that he should have stopped things from getting out of hand earlier and even adds that he tried to stop it. Any time he raised his own concerns and objections Edith simply didn't want to hear them. He had that heavy, pained expression in more than one scene prior to what happened in the church and in general wasn't quite as enthusiastic during their second courtship.

 

It wasn't obvious to Strallan that they'd be happy together and in the end, he ultimately felt that Edith could do better.

 

I just can't root for her to want to be with a man who would choose to publicly humiliate her like that. To me what he did was almost unforgivable. IMO blaming "her family" in general when most of them were perfectly friendly and welcoming while the two who were opposed were at worst unenthusiastic seems like it is being way too generous with Strallan. Blaming the family suggests that Strallan should be let off of the hook for what he did or that the choice he made is somehow understandable and I just can't give him a pass for what he did to Edith. If he'd really loved her I don't think he would have put her through such a devastating disappointment. 

 

Edith for her part seems like she's either stuck on guys who aren't available or aren't quite as interested in her as she is in them. It's too bad she didn't use all of that time she had in London to meet other people. Instead she settled on spending her free time with the editor she knew was married.

 

I don't think the possibility of Edith being able to find a husband is completely absurd, it just doesn't seem to me as though she's been all that proactive in trying to find one. Mary in that sense seems slightly more focused. Obviously I don't expect Edith to be focused on finding a husband now but back when she first started working on the column and was constantly going to London, I feel like that would have been the perfect time for her to meet some new people eligible men included.

 

It isn't as though Edith is living this life where hasn't had freedom, opportunities, and choices. 

[kpw801]

Well, if nothing else I think Laura Carmichael has truly had a chance to let her acting chops shine.  After Downton I will happily follow her career, Michelle Dockery - not so much.

[DeepRunner]

i have been watching this discussion of this episode, and a question has come to mind...Is Mary Crawley "Vida" of Mildred Pierce fame?

[ZulaMay]

I thought Anthony dumping Edith at the altar was cruel. He's the one who put an end to the relationship. He told her that he felt she'd be wasting herself on him. That's how Anthony felt and he says that he should have stopped things from getting out of hand earlier and even adds that he tried to stop it. Any time he raised his own concerns and objections Edith simply didn't want to hear them. He had that heavy, pained expression in more than one scene prior to what happened in the church and in general wasn't quite as enthusiastic during their second courtship.

 

It wasn't obvious to Strallan that they'd be happy together and in the end, he ultimately felt that Edith could do better.

 

I just can't root for her to want to be with a man who would choose to publicly humiliate her like that. To me what he did was almost unforgivable. IMO blaming "her family" in general when most of them were perfectly friendly and welcoming while the two who were opposed were at worst unenthusiastic seems like it is being way too generous with Strallan. Blaming the family suggests that Strallan should be let off of the hook for what he did or that the choice he made is somehow understandable and I just can't give him a pass for what he did to Edith. If he'd really loved her I don't think he would have put her through such a devastating disappointment. 

 

Edith for her part seems like she's either stuck on guys who aren't available or aren't quite as interested in her as she is in them. It's too bad she didn't use all of that time she had in London to meet other people. Instead she settled on spending her free time with the editor she knew was married.

 

I don't think the possibility of Edith being able to find a husband is completely absurd, it just doesn't seem to me as though she's been all that proactive in trying to find one. Mary in that sense seems slightly more focused. Obviously I don't expect Edith to be focused on finding a husband now but back when she first started working on the column and was constantly going to London, I feel like that would have been the perfect time for her to meet some new people eligible men included.

 

It isn't as though Edith is living this life where hasn't had freedom, opportunities, and choices. 

No one is letting Strallan off the hook, but Robert was worse than unenthusiastic.   He told Anthony to stay away from her, and made it clear that he was not happy with the match.  That "pained" expression Anthony  had was seen as often when he was being dismissed by Robert as it was with Edith.  Much more so.

 

And Mary has not proactively searched for a husband more than Edith has.  What is your evidence for that?  Her mother threw a big party for her and invited men, including Tony.  Tony almost immediately proposed to her.  Then Napier brought Blake to the house and he fell for her even though she was pretty rude to him.  After that she was beating them both off with a stick.  She didn't lift a finger to find herself a man.  They came to her on a silver platter.  And she turns them away and expects them to circulate back to her like cocktails at a party.

 

Edith got herself Anthony against the efforts of her family, then got Michael's attention on her own.  And he fell for her and she for him.  Why should she turn away and forget him because of his complicated domestic situation?  She was in love with him, just like like Mary was in love with Matthew.  Who, by the way, was thrown at her head from the moment he arrived (as she herself has said) and whom she rejected at first until she realized she better nab him before he went for someone else....like maybe her beautiful, nicer younger sister.

 

Mary didn't forget Matthew when they were both engaged to other people.  She remained attached, and her family totally enabled it.  She got engaged to Richard but stalled and stalled until Matthew's fiancé conviently died and he was available again.   Of course Michael's WIFE couldn't die because that would make things way too easy for Edith!

 

Again, that double standard.  Mary hasn't done any more to find herself someone than Edith has.  Less so. And she has had a lot more help and a lot less sabotage from her family.  Good God, if anything she's been resistant while at the same time longing for it.  Edith would have gladly taken the help but she never got it.  She was left on her own.

 

I do think Edith deserves someone who will fight for her but she also didn't deserve to have her family discourage a man who DID want to marry her and vice-versa.  You Have Given Me Back My Life.  Those are not the words of a man who doesn't want to marry his fiancé.

Edited October 31, 2014 by ZulaMay

[Andorra]

Count me in the camp that really doesn't want to see Sir Anthony Strallan back. Yes, Violet and Robert were against the marriage, but they allowed it. What else does Strallan need? No excuses here. What he did was unforgivable and I certainly don't blame Robert or Violet for it. They were just proven right. Tom certainly got less encouragement and he married Sybil, because he loved her. Anthony was just a sad sack.

 

BTW Can't we have a Mary-hate thread? It's so exhausting to read one Mary hate posting after the next. I really don't see why people get so emotional about her and Edith, but obviously there is no topic that inflames people more. We already have a Mary/Edith thread and still there is one competition after the next in this thread, too. Now it's already about the actresses. I think that's taking it a bit far.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Andorra

[DeepRunner]

Count me in the camp that really doesn't want to see Sir Anthony Strallan back. Yes, Violet and Robert were against the marriage, but they allowed it. What else does Strallan need? No excuses here. What he did was unforgivable and I certainly don't blame Robert or Violet for it. They were just proven right.

 

BTW Can't we have a Mary-hate thread? It's so exhausting to read one Mary hate posting after the next. I really don't see why people get so emotional about her and Edith, but obviously there is no topic that inflames people more. We already have a Mary/Edith thread and still there is one competition after the next in this thread, too. Now it's already about the actresses. I think that's taking it a bit far.

 

Point A...Violet and Robert were only "proven right" because, in Fellowes's twisted way, Strallan had a conscience and didn't want to condemn Edith to being a nurse to a cripple. Fellowes and Neame just chose to do it in a universe-collapsing, soul-crushing, jilted-at-the-altar-for-the-whole-world-to-see fashion.

 

Point B...Michelle Dockery and Laura Carmichael both have commented about the enjoyment they have in the Mary and Edith sniping returning to levels from previous seasons. It is a safe statement that there is a strong preference for Edith over Mary in this and other threads, but I think it is because of what some DA fans see as a narrative tilted by TPTB toward a favored character and against a character who, though she was a bit of a mousy shrew in S1, has engendered sympathy as the underdog.

 

But, to be fair, Fellowes and Neame have not ALWAYS fawned over Mary. In S1, Robert had one of the best lines ever about Mary, which surprised me. He said Mary was like a child who, after putting a toy down, thinks it will still be there when she wants to play with it again. He said this in direct reponse to Mary manipulating Strallan and throwing Matthew over the side just to prove a point to Edith. In S2, Carlisle calling Mary cold and calculating was quite possibly a shout-out to people who dislike the Ice Queen aspect that is very much her outward persona.

[Andorra]

Oh I see where this whole Edith/Mary debate is coming from. It just exhausts me to read about it again and again and again. Especially since we have a seperate thread for it already. People will NEVER agree on it anyway. Most people here like Edith better. Some like Mary better. I like (or dislike) them both equally. 

 

But no matter where the discussion of plotlines starts, it always ends in Mary/Edith. Do people really care so much about them?

 

Aren't there any other characters of the show we can talk about. I'm frankly sick of Edith/Mary. We know they don't get along, Mary is bitchy, Edith is feeling unfairly treated (and maybe IS unfairly treated). Point taken. Get on with the show?

 

There 20 characters on the show and still all I read is Mary/Edith.

 

But don't mind me, maybe I'm the only one who is not that interested in them.

[kpw801]

@Andorra:

I think the vigorous discussion of Edith and Mary is due to the fact that the other characters in DA are so terribly conceived.  There really isn't anything much to say about say Bates and Anna.  My God they have the same story over and over again.  The only difference in this latest thread is that it is colored a little more darkly with the fact that Anna was raped.  TPTB robbed us the viewers of the satisfaction of seeing Green receive justice.  The closest we got to that was Mrs. Hughes confrontation with him but that was not satisfying.  So now we have this tiresome plot of Bates innocence.  We know he is innocent because the train ticket was not torn just like we knew he was innocent when the poison was in the pastry where Bates could not have put it.  Oh come on!!  You can see the problems with having Julian Fellowes being the only person in the writers room.  For Bates and Anna he seems to have no new ideas.  I think he just threw in the rape because it was another way he could recycle the poor innocent wrongfully suspected Bates story and give Thomas another retread of the same vendetta.

 

Molesley - This story line and character is boring too.  He is just about as cursed in the Julian Fellowes universe as Edith is.  He was mistreated by Matthew from the first season of the show.  He was a competent and willing Butler/Valet but Matthew found his occupation "silly" and insulted him and then tried to sack him until stopped by Lord Grantham.  Molesley has had to fight for every little bit of recognition and then Carson's petty "first footman" persecution made absolutely no sense.  No one is invested in Molesley's character because JF has treated him as an after thought and pretty much a comedic distraction.  We are not expected to take him seriously, so he isn't discussed.  Now the Baxter relationship could be interesting but again we are given no time to see it develop.  Constant interruptions with "Get that to the serverey Mr. Molesley!!" "Upstairs Mr. Molesley!" ....

 

Thomas:  I could care but I don't.  I am tired of the infamous villain saved by the skin of his teeth by some miracle.  He tries to black mail Baxter and she outsmarts him and he gets scolded and nearly fired but just in the nick of time - - - "FIRE!!"  He heroically swoops into Lady Edith's room and saves the smoke infused damsel and suddenly... "I was tempted to take it further but YOU ARE BACK IN OUR GOOD GRACES!"  Sigh.  But Edith cannot EVER catch a break!  Or back in season 2, Thomas and his "I'm not a servant anymore.  That's Sergeant Barrow to you!"  "Daisy!  Get me some tea and make sure it's hot this time!"  Suddenly his black market groceries are junk and he finally gets his comeuppance but then - spanish flu knocks Carson down for the count and heroic Servant/Footman Barrow to the rescue and he gets another happy ending.  Poor Edith is like Charlie Brown in the Halloween special.  Everybody gets candy (read happy ending) but she looks in her bag and says for the umpteenth time.  "I got a rock."

 

Mrs. Hughes:  This character doesn't do anything much lately except exclaim about how "Downton is moving up with the times."  "Lord Grantham will have to accept change whether he likes it or not" blah blah blah. 

 

Edith and Mary basically are the only characters that are drawn and placed in a prominent place in the narrative and until Julian Fellowes gets a thunderbolt of inspiration and creativity I can see no other characters worth discussing with any passion which is pretty sad.

 

Let's see who else to write about - Mrs. Patmore.  Mrs. Patmore's nephew died because he was shot for cowardice.  Mrs. Patmore thinks about this and feels sad.  Mrs. Patmore's nephew cannnot be on the memorial because the law doesn't recognize cowards or people with shell shock as worthy of the nation's memorials. sigh.  Oh Mrs. Patmore pays for Daisy to get some edu-ma-cation.  Mrs. Patmore views Daisy as a daughter.  okay.  and?

 

Daisy gets a tutor and is suddenly the Rain Man of Downton Abbey studying the "glorious revolution" and deciding that the rudest most loud mouthed obnoxious woman in the universe is brilliant, kind and clever and that the biggest mistake of Branson's life would be to let this virtual goddess slip through his fingers.  She was used to tell the audience and Tom that "You're not a Crawley!  You belong with us!  We're the future, they're the past."  Which we had hammered away at us by Mrs. Levinson at Mary's wedding and during the Christmas special.  Nothing much else to say about Daisy either.

 

I remember back in the day when Dallas was in primetime, Miss Ellie, Jock, Bobby, Sue Ellen, Pamela and Cliff Barnes - heck even Ray and Lucy had interesting story lines that could carry an entire episode by themselves.  Together the writers wrote and created an intricate virtual tapestry of alternate reality that drew people in and we were interested everytime the scene changed to someone else's story.  That can't be said of the last few series.  Now when O'Brien focused her vindictiveness on Thomas after trying to ruin Bates we never got to see her get her comeuppance.  She basically has gotten away with causing a miscarriage, nearly getting Bates fired by deliberately tripping him up and trying to frame him for theft, lying to Thomas to get him ruined without employment prospects...  That is the real frustration here.  Julian Fellowes ALWAYS seems to let villains get away with villainy.  When they are caught out it is never on screen where we can see it.  Hell, he gave Mr. Bricker more of a justified send off than he did Green.

 

I am sorry Andorra but they way things are, it is going to be Mary/Edith until this series ends and if there is another series unless the writing is drastically changed, it will be same song different verse all over again.

 

I stream the show and have it on my computer and I watched several episodes of the present series again last night.  Again, I was just aghast at how cavalierly Mary practically commanded Anna to take the Marie Stopes book and go into town to purchase a contraceptive against her wishes.  This was abuse of power plain and simple.  Even if Anna is married she didn't want anyone to see her  purchasing something like that.  We saw in the last episode the damage that did to her husband's too frail ego.  We never see any of the other characters have enough screen time to build a relationship close enough to cause that kind of hurtful damage.  Mary has hurt Anna and Edith as well as been contemptous of her mother on numerous occasions and never been punished for it the way Edith is punished over and over again.  We saw Edith struggle to find happiness and married life and obtain a respectable place in society and saw her family do everything but send Anthony Strallen a pipe bomb to break the relationship up and for what?  She would be a nursemaid?  That's just the way the cookie crumbles.  There is no one else written in a way to engender the kind of heated discussions as these two sisters no matter what episode or series so far.

Edited October 31, 2014 by kpw801

[Andorra]

I actually like Mosely this series. First his storyline with Baxter and now the storyline with Daisy. It was nice to learn something new about him and a bit sad to hear that he had to go into service just because his parents were too poor to give him a better education. I like that there seems to be a genuine sympathy between him and Baxter  and she is rapidly becoming one of my favourite downstairs characters. She is a great addition to the cast. I wonder if we will find out more about her relationship with Thomas and if Thomas is finally going to get a remption arc.

 

I also care a lot about Isobel's storyline. I like the relationship with Violet a lot this year. They're really good friends now. Still needling each other, but also having fun and it's nice to see that they genuinely care for each other, even though they don't always show it.

I'm curious if Isobel is going to marry Lord Merton. I wish she will, because I think he is a very nice man and I find it somehow touching that he finds love so late in his life. I hope it will come true for him after being caught in a loveless marriage for the most part of his life.

 

I'm not very much into the Violet/Kuragin storyline. I must admit the actor doesn't convince me very much. I'm a bit surprised that he is supposed to be the kind of man that Violet was attracted to. I would have thought she was more into witty men not someone so "sinister". I don't know if that's the right word, but I mean he comes over bit like a mafiosi.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Andorra

[shipperx]

I'd absolutely adore talking about Tom's love life... if only he had one!!  I want there to be one.  Please!

 

And I do enjoy the Baxter stuff.  Mosely has really grown on me, too. (And I want him to have Carson's job whenever Carson retires, just because it would piss Carson off). I'd rather Thomas got a job for an in-the-closet aristocrat where he'd have...er... opportunities.

 

I find the Bates thing boring beyond all words, however.  Not only is it repetitious of the last dreary prison plot, but I still rather resent the fact that Anna's rape (which I thought was very possibly a jump-the-shark moment.  Why, show, why?!) became all about Mr. Bates' fee-fees last year.  And now it's all about the death of the rapist.  I just want this plot GONE.  Full stop. Over.

 

Always enjoy Mrs. Patmore, but there isn't much to say.

 

And I hope Isobel marrys Merton. She deserves some happiness. (But I don't know if Fellowes will allow it.)

 

... And I actually don't consider the more recent discussion of Mary to be "Mary hate".  I think it's actually neutral to sympathetic to point out that there are some basic Screen Writing 101 rules here that are (mystifyingly) not in play.   "Give protagonist a goal."  "Give protagonist an obstacle" are really, really basic things.  Pointing out their absense is pointing out that the writing for Mary is quite bad also.  It's not a character criticization.  It's not character hate.  It's pointing out that the writing is wonky on a fundamental, structural level.

 

ETA:  And I really don't want Strallen back.  Publicly humiliating someone by dashing away at the altar is relationship deal-breaker to me.  I hated it in the first Sex and the City movie (and I wasn't a fan of either character, it was just... no.  After that, just no).  And I hated it when Xander did it to Anya on Buffy (then still thought she was his girlfriend!).  I'm sure the plot can be pulled off (sometimes in a 90210 "Kelly chooses Kelly" fashion), but the way it went down here...uh-uh.    I generally like Strallen, but I don't think that a romance is salvageable after that.  Not in this case.  That said, if Edith is socially ostracized due to Marigold, he'd be a really good guy if he'd just show up to show his friendly support.

Edited October 31, 2014 by shipperx

[ZulaMay]

Yes, that's true.  I also am almost desperate for Tom to have a real love life.  He was so in love with Sybil, he suffered such a tragedy, he seemed to mourn her far longer than anyone else did and he is such a warm, affectionate person.  That and he told Isobel back in S4 he DID want to remarry someday, but after all this time nothing has happened! I think a real Tom romance would be a warm and fuzzy storyline if not a fascinating one.  I don't need fascinating:  I just want happy.

 

And yes, the problem with Mary is she is a protagonist but not being written as one, and written as rather unsympathetic right now.  It is very frustrating when the time on her AND on other characters could be spent so much better!

 

Other characters?  Well, there are aspects I like and aspects I don't.  I like Moseley/Baxter but the whole thing about having a running Moseley joke of the episode (his hair, the First Footman thing) is just annoying to me .  The Mrs. Patmore thing is okay but the conflict is not great enough.  We know Robert will fix it somehow, don't we?  It's so predictable.

 

Anna and Bates...OH MY GOD.  Don't get me started.

 

I do like Isobel and Violet but Violet's petty meddling was off-putting. And it's disheartening to think that after all this Violet might still get her way and Isobel might not marry him after all.  After that lovely proposal....what a sad thought.  IDK if it will happen but I can see it.  And again, it is just a repetition of the usual Downton story. Violet bests Isobel.  But if Isobel decides for herself then Violet of course won't be to blame and the petty meddling will be forgotten, just because it worked out that way.

 

So the Mary thing is, in many ways, at heart a complaint about the writing.  Please make the heroine a bit more complex and sympathetic, stop "telling" us how great she is (she pulls off the haircut that other women can't!!  Men adore her!!), give her some goals and obstacles, stop giving her everything in the end and tormenting Edith endlessly.  It's NOT good writing.  It's aggravating.  

 

I want to like her and I did back in S2.  I don't enjoy disliking her or the way her family deals with her and Edith.  A little balance is in order.

 

Anyway, yes, there is a Mary/Edith thread so sorry, I'll take it there.   And we have been discussing it a lot there.  It's just that this particular conversation is about this episode, how Mary reacted to Michael's death, what they said to each other.  So it is episode-related and there is a lot of disagreement over it.

 

True, we'll never agree.

[kpw801]

I'd absolutely adore talking about Tom's love life... if only he had one!!  I want there to be one.  Please!

 

And I do enjoy the Baxter stuff.  Mosely has really grown on me, too. (And I want him to have Carson's job whenever Carson retires, just because it would piss Carson off). I'd rather Thomas got a job for an in-the-closet aristocrat where he'd have...er... opportunities.

 

I find the Bate's thing boring beyond all words, however.  Not only is it repetitious of the last dreary prison plot, but I still rather resent the fact that Anna's rape (which I thought was very possibly a jump-the-shark moment.  Why, show, why?!) became all about Bate's fee-fees last year.  And now it's all about the death of the rapist.  I just want this plot GONE.  Full stop. Over.

 

Always enjoy Mrs. Patmore, but there isn't much to say.

 

... And I actually don't consider the more recent discussion of Mary to be "Mary hate".  I think it's actually neutral to sympathetic to point out that there are some basic Screen Writing 101 rules here that are (mystifyingly) not in play.   "Give protagonist a goal."  "Give protagonist an obstacle" are really, really basic things.  Pointing out their absense is pointing out that the writing for Mary is quite bad also.  It's not a character criticization.  It's not character hate.  It's pointing out that the writing is wonky on a fundamental level.

 

ETA:  And I really don't want Strallen back.  Publicly humiliating someone by dashing away at the altar is relationship deal-breaker to me.  I hated it in the first Sex and the City movie (and I wasn't a fan of either character, it was just... no.  After that, just no).  And I hated it when Xander did it to Anya on Buffy (then still thought she was his girlfriend!).  I'm sure the plot can be pulled off (sometimes in a 90210 "Kelly chooses Kelly" fashion), but the way it went down here...uh-uh.    I generally like Strallen, but I don't think that a romance is salvageable after that.  Not in this case.  That said, if Edith is socially ostracized due to Marigold, he'd be a really good guy if he'd just show up to show his friendly support.

I agree that jilting at the altar should be a deal breaker but interestingly it happens in real life where the two end up together.  I have a childhood friend who was the long term girlfriend of this man forever and she finally got him to the altar and he called it off the day of the wedding.  She stayed his girl friend though, I guess she had invested too much time and they eventually married and are still married decades later.

[kpw801]

Yes, that's true.  I also am almost desperate for Tom to have a real love life.  He was so in love with Sybil, he suffered such a tragedy, he seemed to mourn her far longer than anyone else did and he is such a warm, affectionate person.  That and he told Isobel back in S4 he DID want to remarry someday, but after all this time nothing has happened! I think a real Tom romance would be a warm and fuzzy storyline if not a fascinating one.  I don't need fascinating:  I just want happy.

 

And yes, the problem with Mary is she is a protagonist but not being written as one, and written as rather unsympathetic right now.  It is very frustrating when the time on her AND on other characters could be spent so much better!

 

Other characters?  Well, there are aspects I like and aspects I don't.  I like Moseley/Baxter but the whole thing about having a running Moseley joke of the episode (his hair, the First Footman thing) is just annoying to me .  The Mrs. Patmore thing is okay but the conflict is not great enough.  We know Robert will fix it somehow, don't we?  It's so predictable.

 

And that is what I mean!  She will get her happy ending but not Lady E.

 

Anna and Bates...OH MY GOD.  Don't get me started.

 

I do like Isobel and Violet but Violet's petty meddling was off-putting. And it's disheartening to think that after all this Violet might still get her way and Isobel might not marry him after all.  After that lovely proposal....what a sad thought.  IDK if it will happen but I can see it.  And again, it is just a repetition of the usual Downton story. Violet bests Isobel.  But if Isobel decides for herself then Violet of course won't be to blame and the petty meddling will be forgotten, just because it worked out that way.

 

I can say except for the Lord Merton thing mostly Isobel has gotten on my nerves throughout the entire Bunting ordeal.  After Bunting spitefully spouted off about them "not wanting" Lord G on the memorial committee and the Dowager said maybe we could be more civilized, out comes this stupid line "I love when young people stand up for their ideas."  Oh whatever.  Everytime that dreadful Bunting had something hurtful and insulting to say, Isobel pipes up but I love when young people speak their minds.  She was just as annoying as Bunting.  I loved when the Dowager said, prayers and ideals are noble but at a party they are awkward.

 

I do hope she marries Merton which will give her hopefully something else to talk about.

 

So the Mary thing is, in many ways, at heart a complaint about the writing.

 

Exactly!  Bad writing.  

 

Please make the heroine a bit more complex and sympathetic, stop "telling" us how great she is (she pulls off the haircut that other women can't!!  Men adore her!!), give her some goals and obstacles, stop giving her everything in the end and tormenting Edith endlessly.  It's NOT good writing.  It's aggravating.  

 

I want to like her and I did back in S2.  I don't enjoy disliking her or the way her family deals with her and Edith.  A little balance is in order.

 

Anyway, yes, there is a Mary/Edith thread so sorry, I'll take it there.   And we have been discussing it a lot there.  It's just that this particular conversation is about this episode, how Mary reacted to Michael's death, what they said to each other.  So it is episode-related and there is a lot of disagreement over it.

 

True, we'll never agree.

[ZoloftBlob]

Pointing out their absense is pointing out that the writing for Mary is quite bad also.  It's not a character criticization.  It's not character hate.  It's pointing out that the writing is wonky on a fundamental level.

 

Agreed.

 

Part of what I like about previous seasons Mary is that, as awful of a person as she can be, there was usually a *point* to what she was doing. She was attempting to force her father to break the entail, she was trying to avoid her secret leaking outa and still marrying well, etc etc. She wanted Matthew because she was in love with him and that she wasn't getting him (in season one and two) meant she actually had something going on that she, and *we* cared about.

 

Now? She doesn't have anything really going on. She's dating, she doesn't seem to care for anyone or anything in particular, so why should we. I think we had a similar discussion over Fellowes being unwilling to commit to a new guy for Mary, that he was so burned by the Matthew situation that any guy who hooks up with Mary will be a non entity in the show's storyline... and thats a problem. Because if no one really cares who Mary ends up with... why should the audience care?

[Avaleigh]

BTW Can't we have a Mary-hate thread? It's so exhausting to read one Mary hate posting after the next. I really don't see why people get so emotional about her and Edith, but obviously there is no topic that inflames people more. We already have a Mary/Edith thread and still there is one competition after the next in this thread, too. Now it's already about the actresses. I think that's taking it a bit far.

 

 

I agree too that it's taking it too far to pit the actors against one another. When it starts getting into stuff like saying that Michelle Dockery is given too much credit while actors like Dan Stevens and Laura Carmichael aren't, I just feel like it starts to be a bit much. I wince too when Dockery's appearance is slammed as not being pretty enough to merit whatever attention her character receives and no, I'm definitely not talking about the Willa Wonka comment which was very funny in my opinion.

 

As far as responding to the never ending Mary Edith debate--I personally find it harder to step away when it's regularly being presented as fact that all viewers are of the opinion that Edith has been mistreated by her family all of these seasons and that they're to blame for her not being married, for supposedly not making effort find a husband for her, for Edith choosing to not be truthful with them, for most everything that's gone wrong in her life. Presenting something as an opinion vs. presenting it as a fact makes all the difference in my opinion and a lot of things related to the Edith character often seem to be treated as fact for some reason even though there is more than one interpretation to be had. 

 

The debate on whether or not Cora is a bad mother to Edith (or in general) reminds me of the debates that have taken place on the Mad Men boards with regard to Betty being a mother. I think it's a valid topic but agree that it has been discussed to death and that it's unlikely that anyone is going to change anyone else's mind. What I find hard to understand is when things are presented in such a way as to shut down discussion or to leave no room for debate. An example of this for me is saying that Edith's family just "didn't care" about her when she got the telegram with the bad news. I didn't get that impression and I felt compelled to say why because it was being presented as fact that Edith's family "didn't care" when I personally saw evidence that they did.

 

I also care a lot about Isobel's storyline. I like the relationship with Violet a lot this year. They're really good friends now. Still needling each other, but also having fun and it's nice to see that they genuinely care for each other, even though they don't always show it.

I'm curious if Isobel is going to marry Lord Merton. I wish she will, because I think he is a very nice man and I find it somehow touching that he finds love so late in his life. I hope it will come true for him after being caught in a loveless marriage for the most part of his life.

 

 

I do too. I just want her to be happy but I have a feeling that her marriage isn't going to be allowed to happen because Violet is opposed and Violet basically always gets her way. The one major exception I can think of was when they decided to allow the house to be used as a hospital and she put her foot and cane down to no avail. Apart from that Violet generally gets what she wants and for whatever reason she wants Isobel to remain as her companion even though she has demonstrated time and again that Isobel gets on her nerves. You'd think her snobbishness would make her happy with the idea of Isobel marrying a peer but for some reason it threatens her.

 

I also disagree with the idea that the other characters are terribly conceived or basically not worth talking about, it just seems like Mary, Edith, Tom, and sometimes Violet generate the most discussion. Robert usually only comes into it after he's done something stupid. For the most part people seem to be in agreement on the Anna/Bates storyline. Thomas has been interesting in the past but not so much these days in my opinion. I'll never understand why he *still* has it in for Bates after all of this time and after what Bates and Anna have done to help him in the past. 

 

I'm interested in seeing the Rose/Atticus courtship and am glad that it's apparently going to shed some more light on Cora's background. I like the Rose character in general and wish we could see more of her.

[Andorra]

 

I'm interested in seeing the Rose/Atticus courtship and am glad that it's apparently going to shed some more light on Cora's background. I like the Rose character in general and wish we could see more of her.

 

I'm so disappointed that this storyline is so rushed! Why oh why did Julian Fellows introduce Atticus so late in the series?? As it looks now, they will have him and Rose married and gone from Downton at the end of the series. Why didn't he give us some time to learn what kind of person Atticus is? Instead we got Bunting for 5 dragging episodes with a storyline that was boring and lead to nothing.

[kpw801]

I'm so disappointed that this storyline is so rushed! Why oh why did Julian Fellows introduce Atticus so late in the series?? As it looks now, they will have him and Rose married and gone from Downton at the end of the series. Why didn't he give us some time to learn what kind of person Atticus is? Instead we got Bunting for 5 dragging episodes with a storyline that was boring and lead to nothing.

I know right?  He seems to have just wasted valuable screen time with the tedium of persecuting Molesley and watching Mrs. Drew freak out about Edith!

[shipperx]

I would have been happy with more series time devoted to the Rose/Atticus pairing. I like a little froth in my guilty pleasure viewing. I would be quite happy if there were a bit more romance, happiness, and examination of Coras and Atticus's backgrounds.

BTW- I don't think Cora is a terrible mother. I think she's a loving mother... Just one a bit oblivious to her favoritism and not always all that aware of what's going on around her (see: Robert's maid flirtation and O'Brian's everything). That doesn't make her a horrible human being (she's actually one of the nicer ones), just a flawed one. One of those flaws being that she's blind to the negative effects fostered by the maintenance of the Crawley family pecking order.

Edited October 31, 2014 by shipperx

[Avaleigh]

I'm not very much into the Violet/Kuragin storyline. I must admit the actor doesn't convince me very much. I'm a bit surprised that he is supposed to be the kind of man that Violet was attracted to. I would have thought she was more into witty men not someone so "sinister". I don't know if that's the right word, but I mean he comes over bit like a mafiosi.

What I like about this storyline is that Kuragin is always so frank in his discussion that he ends up extracting these moments of honesty from Violet and I hope that continues. I enjoyed hearing about Violet's memories of Imperial Russia and liked that we got to learn a little bit more about Robert's father and their marriage. The scene where Violet and Isobel are talking about Kuragin was actually one of my favorite scenes from this season. You can really see that a genuine friendship has blossomed between Violet and Isobel and that Violet finally feels comfortable letting her guard down a little bit. I felt like they seemed very comfortable with one another and liked seeing that.

 

If Isobel does get married Violet can be happy with the fact that she still has a prince who admires her. Lol, if they were younger and the princess wasn't a factor I'd say she could get a new title in exchange for giving Kuragin a place to live. 

[photo fox]

Just some housekeeping notes:

 

We don't really do "hate" or "love" threads here at PTV.  We do have a Mary topic, where people are free to take positive or negative thoughts about her character over time, and the aforementioned Mary and Edith, Edith and Mary topic if you want to compare/contrast.  However, if you post outside of the episode and speculation topics, please remember to use spoiler tags until this series/season airs in the US.

 

This episode had a lot of Mary/Edith interaction, so it's natural there will be a lot of conversation about it.  Please keep in mind, though, that this is an episode topic, so the bulk of your post should be about things that happened in this episode.  If you want to examine a character or a relationship over time, that should go in the characters'/relationship thread.  (FWIW, I realize the spoiler tagging is slightly inconvenient, and really appreciate everyone's cooperation on that.  Y'all are troopers.)

 

Also, as I said a few days ago in the Mary/Edith topic, if you feel like you're making the same argument over and over, it may be time to turn your attentions to another character or storyline.

 

Final note:  if you think someone is being a jerk, please use the report button.  It's the quickest way to get mod attention.

 

Cheers!

[Pogojoco]

Just to get away from the Mary/Edith stuff....

 

I'm very annoyed by the maybe killing of the dog because it's name is Isis. Egyptology was a major thing in the 19th century and continued in the '20s with the discovery of King Tut's tomb in 1922. I thought the dogs being named Pharoah and Isis were winks to that- I could see Robert being into that sort of thing. I get why people might be sensitive to the name, but I also sort of roll my eyes at it.

 

All is forgiven if they introduce lab puppies, though. Keep Maggie Smith (and her household staff), add puppies. Toss everything else. 

Edited November 2, 2014 by Pogojoco

[Avaleigh]

I wondered if getting rid of Isis was about finding a way to incorporate Lady Carnarvon's dogs?

Sometime back I remember reading about her wanting her dogs to be featured on the show. IIRC it was also because of Lady Carnarvon's dogs that they replaced Pharaoh with Isis in the first place.

Maybe she's finally getting her wish.

[Llywela]

To be honest, though, in terms of strict plausibility, the dog couldn't have lasted much longer whatever its name. It's only been 5 years for us, but in the show it's been over a decade, which is about the lifespan for a large dog - quite simply, that dog is very old and at the end of its life. Even last season, before the ISIS troubles blew up, people were commenting on the dog's longevity. Every new season skips forward in time by at least a year. It wouldn't be believable for the dog to have lasted much longer.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Llywela

[Andorra]

To be honest, though, in terms of strict plausibility, the dog couldn't have lasted much longer whatever its name. It's only been 5 years for us, but in the show it's been over a decade, which is about the lifespan for a large dog - quite simply, that dog is very old and at the end of its life. Even last season, before the ISIS troubles blew up, people were commenting on the dog's longevity. Every new season skips forward in time by at least a year. It wouldn't be believable for the dog to have lasted much longer.

 

But that's just because people don't pay attention. Isis was not in first series. In the first series the dog was named Pharao. Isis appeared first in 1916 and we're now in 1924. So even though she wasn't a puppy in 1916, she is probably 9 years old. Old, but not THAT old.

[maraleia]

 

Relations between Robert and Cora continue to be strained. Blake's scheming starts to come to fruition when Mary is unexpectedly pitted against her love rival. Edith receives some terrible news and decides to take drastic action. Following a mysterious tip off, Baxter becomes embroiled in the investigation of Green's death. Thomas' condition deteriorates, prompting him to finally reveal the truth to Baxter. Love is in the air for more than one member of the Crawley family.

[Calamity Jane]

No, no one has forgotten that Edith was Marigold's first primary caretaker.  That's why it's been noted several times in this thread that Marigold has abruptly removed from three caretakers at this point.

 

Edith's role and the original primary caretaker doesn't mean much when Marigold was given another primary caretaker.  Edith effectively disappeared and that original attachment was damaged.  This wasn't a case of Edith leaving leaving Marigold at the daycare while she went to work or leaving Marigold with known grandparents for a weekend.  Marigold's primary caretaker changed.  The same thing happened when Edith removed her and placed her with the Drewes.  A new change in primary caretaker occurred.  It doesn't really matter if Edith was there at the beginning or was there for a few days when bringing her back from Switzerland or was there off and on while Marigold was living with the Drewes.  Edith can be familiar and still not occupy the primary caretaker role.  

 

In real life, Marigold's ability to attach would be a very serious concern.  Perhaps I'm unfairly expecting others to understand this.  I probably have more consideration for children than the average person.  Some people care most about animals, others care most about hair and fashion...I care about kids.  I suppose my professional and personal background does lend itself to being better educated about the basics of child development.  *shrug*  It's probably not worth feeling so infuriated over something this important since it's connected with one of the dumbest shows on TV.  I'll do my best keep my fury to myself from now on and just keep my fingers crossed that this sort of ignorance isn't present in anyone's real life interaction with kids.  

Edith wouldn't have known any of this either from her studies or from real life, would she?  Attachment studies came, if I recall, in the forties or fifties.  Well-to-do English children were brought up by nannies, who as we have seen, could be fired and out the door in a heartbeat.  The boys were shipped off at seven or so to boarding school, the girls had governesses -- not much parental involvement, not much warm-fuzzy-Harry-Harlow-ape time at all.  It could explain Mary's exceptional self-absorption and her coldness in general, when you think about it.  

 

Even as late as the fifties, the advice was not to cuddle a child too much or pick it up too much.  Keep a strict schedule.  Not too much "sentimental" stuff. Not that different from the prevailing childrearing views of the early 20th century in Englahd.  Anyway, by the standards of Downton times, Marigold has not had the worst of experiences.  It's not ideal, but it's not Romanian orphanage awful, either.  And although certain experiences may indicate/predispose to certain later disorders, I think there is at least a spectrum of responses.  Human psychology isn't quite that nailed down yet, sadly.  

[mightycrone]

On a shallow note, I loved the red dress she wore to dinner when she debuted her new haircut. The back of the dress was especially beautiful.

I'm a hat lover-- and sometimes a great hat will steal the entire scene!

[ZoloftBlob]

I'm sorry. I just have to share. My 90 year old English war bride grandmother just passed and.... her hats are her legacy (along with a lot of stories) and I just got my hat and my hatbox and hats were kind of a big deal. If there's something that resonates with me when I watch Downton, its the women in Downton with their hats because that's how I have seen English women.

 

And the tweed caps because my dad always had a tweed cap like Robert and Matthew and Tom and my cherished memory of Christmas 1983 was getting a tweed cap despite my being a girl child.

 

(and FYI my dad, in the 1970s, was the spitting image of Sherlock BBC Benedict Cumberbatch to where I am uncomfortable with watching the show)

[talula]

I'm sorry. I just have to share. My 90 year old English war bride grandmother just passed and.... her hats are her legacy (along with a lot of stories) and I just got my hat and my hatbox and hats were kind of a big deal. If there's something that resonates with me when I watch Downton, its the women in Downton with their hats because that's how I have seen English women.

 

And the tweed caps because my dad always had a tweed cap like Robert and Matthew and Tom and my cherished memory of Christmas 1983 was getting a tweed cap despite my being a girl child.

 

(and FYI my dad, in the 1970s, was the spitting image of Sherlock BBC Benedict Cumberbatch to where I am uncomfortable with watching the show)

My condolences about your loss. It must make Downton special since it's in the era of your grandmother. 

 

I also love the costumes and hats...just wonderful.  The color combos are so great with the embroidery, lace and rich fabrics.  Those hat feathers are so rich and trims wonderful.   I especially like when they wear navy from matching coats to gloves to their hats.  Love the pastel colored dresses also.   

 

I'm so looking forward to tomorrow's episode.

[PRgal]

I'm sorry. I just have to share. My 90 year old English war bride grandmother just passed and.... her hats are her legacy (along with a lot of stories) and I just got my hat and my hatbox and hats were kind of a big deal. If there's something that resonates with me when I watch Downton, its the women in Downton with their hats because that's how I have seen English women.

 

And the tweed caps because my dad always had a tweed cap like Robert and Matthew and Tom and my cherished memory of Christmas 1983 was getting a tweed cap despite my being a girl child.

 

(and FYI my dad, in the 1970s, was the spitting image of Sherlock BBC Benedict Cumberbatch to where I am uncomfortable with watching the show)

I am so sorry for your loss.  My grandmother would be the same age if she were still alive (in other words, a contemporary of Sybbie, George and Marigold).  I think she gave away or sold a lot of things (pretty much anything that wasn't lost during WWII) when she moved from Hong Kong to Canada in the 1970s and of the things she kept, they were letters, all written in Chinese, which I cannot read.  All I have are photos and the stores she told me when I was a little girl. 

[TVForever]

I used to feel sorry for Edith. Now I just despise her. Watching Mrs Drewe, my heart just broke. Her anger towards Edith and her husband was completely justified. I know, Marigold is Edith's child and she was ultimately going to end up with her somehow. I just hate that so many people were hurt along the way ( the Schroeders, Mrs Drewe, and even Mr Drewe, who was put in the position of deceiving his wife).

[Eegah]

That is some impressively shameless retconning with Bates. And the show didn't even seem to give any closure to his suspecting Anna doesn't want his kids.

 

So now it turns out Fellowes cares so little about Edith that we don't even get to see her learning about Gregson's death. And on that note, he might have just come onto the set to say "I've finally given up on getting the actor back, so this is my passive-aggressive bullshit about it."

 

Even with as bitchy as Mary can be, telling Edith she ruins everything seemed quite out of character cruel. There's such a lack of effort at this point that I don't see the characters anymore. I'm not watching Mary, I'm watching Michelle Dockery desperately trying to sell her crappy lines.

 

Love the hairdresser, though. Can we get a spinoff?