Spoilers, Speculation & All Things Media!

[WendyCR72]

I don't want to bring anyone down, but as rightfully angry as some are, online polls are essentially as worthless as a $3 bill because of some knowing how to manipulate voting, changing ISPs, etc. Yes, it validates the anger, but overall, it's like spitting in the wind.

Alas, ratings have basically remained status quo. Now, some can say it's because Katic is still on, but I think all ABC sees (assuming it doesn't cancel the series, and the fact that the network was said to be negotiating with Fillion tells me it isn't their first choice) is that, for all the bluster, ratings held after the news, so why not see where this leads.

Lastly, to address Fillion's fanbase, perhaps some don't like/watch his current show so they don't care. A good portion of his fans seem to be from his soap days, his Firefly/Serenity days, Dr. Horrible/Whedon/sci-fi fans, or a combination thereof. Katic made her name from this show, so it makes sense this is where her fanbase speaks the loudest.

The upfronts will likely tell the tale.

[BellyLaughter]

12 minutes ago, westwingfan said:

What I find a little odd about all this is that Fillione has 3.48M followers on twitter as against Stana's 611K and yet the postings and comments to the various online articles are overwhelmingly supportive of Stana and against a S9 without Beckett. The Hollywood Reporter Poll has had 20K vote and 83% say they won't watch a S9 without Beckett, other polls with less interest are also curiously running at a similar ratio, I would have expected a lot more support for Fillione given his larger fanbase.

I think Nathan has a fanbase that is almost seperate from Castle.  Yes, there is some crossover but he also has a lot of fans who would rather eat their own poo than watch Castle!  (And that's cool, he has many faces as a performer) but perhaps that needs to be taken into account!?!

Edited April 29, 2016 by BellyLaughter

[MaryM47]

I can't speak for all casual viewers, but I will tell you about my in-laws, who watch many cop shows.  A few years ago, they came to visit one September, and I had the season premiere of Bones queued up for them. Now, I'm not a Bones watcher, so I may be a bit hazy about the details, but it was the premiere after the big "bad guy keeps them from getting married" cliffhanger, which even I was aware of. So we sit down to watch what so many other fans had been anxiously waiting all Summer for, and my mother-in-law offhandedly asks something like, "oh, are those 2 married now?" So I'm guessing that on the other side of the Castle fan bell curve will be those very casual watchers who will sit down to "Castle, P.I" and about 2-3 episodes in will wonder, "What ever happened to that lady cop?"

[BellyLaughter]

I think that is what ABC is banking on.

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, MaryM47 said:

I can't speak for all casual viewers, but I will tell you about my in-laws, who watch many cop shows.  A few years ago, they came to visit one September, and I had the season premiere of Bones queued up for them. Now, I'm not a Bones watcher, so I may be a bit hazy about the details, but it was the premiere after the big "bad guy keeps them from getting married" cliffhanger, which even I was aware of. So we sit down to watch what so many other fans had been anxiously waiting all Summer for, and my mother-in-law offhandedly asks something like, "oh, are those 2 married now?" So I'm guessing that on the other side of the Castle fan bell curve will be those very casual watchers who will sit down to "Castle, P.I" and about 2-3 episodes in will wonder, "What ever happened to that lady cop?"

But I'm not sure all casual viewers aren't more like us than we think.  I was listening to my Aunt and Uncle talk about TV (and I'm sure they are casual) and they were talking about how they used to like Castle but quit because the Castle is kidnapped from the wedding, missing, and returns with amnesia storyline was stupid.  It was like listening to this forum.

I'm not really heartbroken over Beckett leaving.  The show isn't what it was.  I am fairly certain that there is a version of Castle without Beckett that could be watchable because Fillion has the charisma for it.  The issue is that I have yet to see any writing for the show that convinces me that they could pull that feat off.

[MaryM47]

Well, based on my in-laws, ABC will be rolling in it.  This conversation happened 5 minutes ago when we were talking about shows:

FIL: Castle is going off, too. (and I am absolutely shocked that he is even aware of this)

Me: Maybe not, they may do a short season.

FIL: Oh, I thought they were both leaving.

Me: No, just her and the doctor. 

FIL: (silence)

Me and MIL: You know, the coroner (more silence), she's in the morgue (blank stare) she's at the crime scenes saying they died between 8-10am.

FIL: Oh, I'm mixing it up with Bones.

 

And BTW...we're now watching The Blacklist, and my MIL is convinced that Reddington is married to Mr. Kaplan. 

[KAOS Agent]

I don't understand why so many people think casual viewers of the show are even aware that Stana Katic was let go. It wouldn't really affect the ratings until things happen on the show. Once she's dead, viewers will make a decision whether to keep watching. Many might tune into the reboot, but the quality of writing and where they take it will be the thing that holds the audience. Focus groups are fine, but until you see the actual product, there isn't a comparison. They may think a Beckett-less Castle would be okay and then realize that the premise of Castle & Beckett solving crimes was what interested them and decide they're done. Or they might love Castle PI. It's not something that ABC can predict. It's why new shows fail all the time.

[BlakesMomma]

"I don't want to bring anyone down, but as rightfully angry as some are, online polls are essentially as worthless as a $3 bill because of some knowing how to manipulate voting, changing ISPs, etc. Yes, it validates the anger, but overall, it's like spitting in the wind."

These online polls such as THR and some others are worthless, as you said, because they allow for infinite number of votes by the same person.  I've no doubt there are a small group of angry Castle and Katic fans out there sitting and continuously voting, along with their other #CancelCastle and #SaveCaskett campaigns, to try and make a point to ABC who will take absolutely no notice of it.  Angry fans are always the vocal fans so results from these types of polls are never a real indication of the entire viewing audience.

As for Fillion's fanbase, many I know quit watching Castle a few seasons ago when they felt the focus was too heavily shifted onto the Beckett character, sidelining Castle somewhat.  Many of those may very well come back and watch a revamped Castle.  And some never watched Castle.  I think it depends on how they shift the focus of a possible S9 that will decide whether it attracts Fillion fans that weren't watching before.  

I think a large portion of the casual Castle audience just want to watch an hour of light, entertaining TV.  They have no idea of any changes to the show, and as long as they tune in and enjoy the hour, they will continue to tune in. 

(Not sure why when I "quote post" I get a different quoted post than the one intended.)

[WendyCR72]

22 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

It's not something that ABC can predict. It's why new shows fail all the time.

True, but that's the "beauty" of this for the network, I guess. New, but not. Familiar characters, same title, but new premise. Sort of the devil ABC knows and doesn't at the same time.

So, in a sense, there may be less risk in having something new within the already established. Or so ABC hopes, considering it seems to be in dire straits. (No, not the band. Hee.)

[verdana]

On 27/04/2016 at 7:05 PM, Noggin said:

I wonder how many of the original cast will survive the cut.

Tamala going was a no brainer really, her character contributed very little to the show, I'm sure any upset at her departure will soon be quickly forgotten. 

Seamus and Jon would both willingly renegotiate terms I'm sure and I can see the boys staying, you can't chuck the baby out with the bathwater and get rid of too many of the established cast and Fillion needs someone to bounce off.  Also, didn't Seamus say a while ago he would be with the show "until the wheels fell off", well...they're wobbling!  I'm surprised Susan has survived the cull as when she was hired she would have been expensive but I'm sure Fillion will go to bat for both Susan and Molly, he'll want to keep the Castle family on the show and even develop their roles now Katic is out of the equation and screentime needs to be filled. Pity about Alexis, if they got rid of her they might win themselves some fans like me who have grown increasingly disenchanted and wish she'd get a life (one that I don't have to see). 

They've done almost all the trimming they can in my estimation, they've hired foreign directors, a load of new writers who would be keen but cheap and Hanning leaving will help a little as he must have been paid more as an established writer than the rest. They could do with getting rid of Bowman he must cost a bit given his rep and it would be another positive improvement being able to clearly see things.  Fans don't miss directors when they leave so it's another easy saving to make I don't know why they haven't got rid of him last season unless he's got some hold over the network or they want to keep him sweet.  

Edited April 29, 2016 by verdana

[femmefan1946]

The reason I ask about commercials is that the customer for any show is the advertiser. The advertiser is buying our eyeballs, and looks for programs that will bring the right kind of eyeball for his product.

Not my idea, obviously, but Marshall McLuhan of 'The Medium is the Message' fame.

But if the program isn't bringing the right eyeballs, the advertiser is gone.

Somewhat modified in the past by syndication, and today by direct purchase cable and streamed programming. But ABC is still old school and powered by advertising.

[westwingfan]

1 hour ago, femmefan1946 said:

The reason I ask about commercials is that the customer for any show is the advertiser. The advertiser is buying our eyeballs, and looks for programs that will bring the right kind of eyeball for his product.

Not my idea, obviously, but Marshall McLuhan of 'The Medium is the Message' fame.

But if the program isn't bringing the right eyeballs, the advertiser is gone.

Somewhat modified in the past by syndication, and today by direct purchase cable and streamed programming. But ABC is still old school and powered by advertising.

Hard to imagine how they can improve the demo even by getting rid of Beckett, assuming that what gives shows like Scandal an edge is that they show more skin, then beefing up the Caskett scenes would have been the logical answer, sex is supposed to sell isn't it?. Castle P.I. is no Jim Rockford and working cases with his super sleuth daughter and his other new sidekick would seem a poor substitute for the rappor that there was between Castle, Beckett and the boyz, so unless they intend to resurrect Castle's playboy personna where he has a romp with a different femme fatale each week the show would seem to have less going for it than it did before.

[TWP]

The Scandal audience may be mostly what ABC has across their drama genre and they're looking to increase their male audience, which Nathan as a lonely guy could possibly do. ABC has all but been branded Shondaland. I suspect it's driving the male audience away a bit.

[westwingfan]

I wouldn't want to be the actor who finally puts Kate Beckett in the ground. Look what happened to Ioan Gruffudd's next starring gig, and all he did was kiss her. LOL

Edited April 29, 2016 by westwingfan

[TWP]

1 hour ago, westwingfan said:

I wouldn't want to be the actor who finally puts Kate Beckett in the ground. Look what happened to Ioan Gruffudd's next starring gig, and all he did was kiss her. LOL

And not even the internet #SaveForever campaign could save him ;-). Yes, you're right! I pity the fool who does that. 

[PugLoaf]

3 hours ago, westwingfan said:

Hard to imagine how they can improve the demo even by getting rid of Beckett, assuming that what gives shows like Scandal an edge is that they show more skin, then beefing up the Caskett scenes would have been the logical answer, sex is supposed to sell isn't it?.

I am one of the few (it seems) that would hate adding more Caskett scenes. Initially I wanted them together/married but since the first missed wedding every romantic scene looks painful, to me there is no chemistry between them, and they drew out the story-line too long. As others have said they should have gotten married the first time, in the Hamptons, no stupid missing time for Castle, and then they should have ended the show on a strong note. 

However, I kind of like the idea of Castle PI, with Alexis, Haley and Castle as leads. They still could have attempted a spin off with this theme even having ended the show at the marriage. (Beckett could have been a very occasional guest because she is a busy police captain not just a wife and it could have focused on the PI firm).

(Disclaimer: I quit watching around ep 4 of this season because seeing Beckett run around on her own investigation into Lockjaw Satellite did nothing for me, it was giving me Quantico vibes) 

[westwingfan]

13 minutes ago, PugLoaf said:

I am one of the few (it seems) that would hate adding more Caskett scenes. Initially I wanted them together/married but since the first missed wedding every romantic scene looks painful, to me there is no chemistry between them, and they drew out the story-line too long. As others have said they should have gotten married the first time, in the Hamptons, no stupid missing time for Castle, and then they should have ended the show on a strong note. 

However, I kind of like the idea of Castle PI, with Alexis, Haley and Castle as leads. They still could have attempted a spin off with this theme even having ended the show at the marriage. (Beckett could have been a very occasional guest because she is a busy police captain not just a wife and it could have focused on the PI firm).

(Disclaimer: I quit watching around ep 4 of this season because seeing Beckett run around on her own investigation into Lockjaw Satellite did nothing for me, it was giving me Quantico vibes) 

I didn't mean more Caskett romantic scenes, just letting them appear more uninhibited in the on'e we got.  But I agree with you about the clumsiness of what we got, in Hong Kong Hustle Castle seems afraid to touch Beckett when she is lying on top of him, holding his hands away from her instead of embracing her, and in Clear and Present Danger who would lie on the bed with his shoes on fiddling with his thermal imaging goggles when he knows that Beckett has just gone to get ready for some nookie, and in Murder is Forever when Beckett seems to lean in for a kiss after he's shown her the sea shells he brushes past her heading for the bedroom, leaving a rather confused looking Beckett behind, perhaps Fillione didn't appreciate Stana's improvisation. It seems someone wanted a lot of their romantic scenes to be played more for laughs.

They could have closed the original show with Caskett being in a good place if they didn't want to continue with Stana, and then launched Castle P.I., as you say, they've basically aired the pilot already, so going straight to series wouldn't have been such a stretch, but killing off Beckett isn't giving the new show the best of starts.

[PugLoaf]

12 minutes ago, westwingfan said:

They could have closed the original show with Caskett being in a good place if they didn't want to continue with Stana, and then launched Castle P.I., as you say, they've basically aired the pilot already, so going straight to series wouldn't have been such a stretch, but killing off Beckett isn't giving the new show the best of starts.

I very much agree with this. Killing her off is lazy and cheap and undermines the story of the leads that they spent 8ish years building. Having them get divorced will also be similarly off putting for me. Not sure how they can end it in a way that doesn't make me either hate Castle, the writers, the show, or all of the above at this point. 

[TWP]

32 minutes ago, PugLoaf said:

I am one of the few (it seems) that would hate adding more Caskett scenes. Initially I wanted them together/married but since the first missed wedding every romantic scene looks painful, to me there is no chemistry between them, and they drew out the story-line too long. As others have said they should have gotten married the first time, in the Hamptons, no stupid missing time for Castle, and then they should have ended the show on a strong note. 

However, I kind of like the idea of Castle PI, with Alexis, Haley and Castle as leads. They still could have attempted a spin off with this theme even having ended the show at the marriage. (Beckett could have been a very occasional guest because she is a busy police captain not just a wife and it could have focused on the PI firm).

(Disclaimer: I quit watching around ep 4 of this season because seeing Beckett run around on her own investigation into Lockjaw Satellite did nothing for me, it was giving me Quantico vibes) 

The problem with doing as you propose with Beckett being occasionally there is, would Katic want to do occasional appearances AND take the pay cut? Also, I think they want Castle to have love interests on a regular basis.

I'm 100% with you about the chemistry-free love scenes. For me, the only convincing love scene other than Always that I can remember was the phony one before they got together. Always was actually pretty questionable because of all the cutting and splicing they did,  The rest was a succession of "kisses interruptus" that ruined any possible moment and worse, no interruptions so that the cringeworthiness of the scenes was more apparent. For me, the overriding sense when these two did love scenes was how much they disliked doing them. But maybe that was all biased by the stupid way they handled love scenes in season 5.

I'm definitely curious about Season 9 and will watched if it's light-hearted. I'm one who considered the show a comedy. If they go further down that road, I'm in. 

I just figured out how they're going to end things. Castle will find out that he has a twin brother just before he and Beckett go out in a fiery gun shootout. I honestly don't see how they can get rid of Beckett without a huge load of baggage for Castle that will certainly be agonizing for viewers. I guess time will maybe heal that wound. However, a twin brother who could care less (and who changes his name) would be even better.

One other point. Betch you ABC is writing a blanket statement into  their new NDA'S that any communication about leaving a show has to be approved by them. "We weren't approached" won't be allowed. Gone are the days when the network will assume that actors would rather claim that it was their decision to leave (in order to save face). 

[Kromm]

2 minutes ago, PugLoaf said:

I very much agree with this. Killing her off is lazy and cheap and undermines the story of the leads that they spent 8ish years building. Having them get divorced will also be similarly off putting for me. Not sure how they can end it in a way that doesn't make me either hate Castle, the writers, the show, or all of the above at this point. 

Simple. Consciously end the show instead of fishing for a renewal that only has a minuscule chance of working anyway.

If the character of Alexis was more popular, I'd almost say there's a second way, which is create a continuation of the show (still not likely to succeed, but at least slightly less likely to piss people off) starring her, still using the same "Castle" show name to preserve the "branding" (because her last name is Castle, right? She is in fact the only other character with that last name, since the Mother uses her stage name, Beckett kept her last name, and all other members of the family are dead). Again, she's not popular enough for this to work, but if she HAD been you could have even kept Fillion around, but shifted to the advisor role (not in every episode, but in important tentpole ones)... and justified us not seeing Beckett because unlike her Daddy, you can easily justify uprooting Alexis to another city where Beckett isn't around. 

But the same idea using Richard Castle himself?  Nope. Not without making every viewer feel cheated by the earlier years of the show.

[PugLoaf]

37 minutes ago, TWP said:

The problem with doing as you propose with Beckett being occasionally there is, would Katic want to do occasional appearances AND take the pay cut? Also, I think they want Castle to have love interests on a regular basis.

35 minutes ago, TWP said:

I just figured out how they're going to end things. Castle will find out that he has a twin brother just before he and Beckett go out in a fiery gun shootout. I honestly don't see how they can get rid of Beckett without a huge load of baggage for Castle that will certainly be agonizing for viewers. I guess time will maybe heal that wound. However, a twin brother who couldn't care less (and who changes his name) would be even better.

 

This sounds sort of hilarious and great. Especially if Filion eats up all the scenery during the shoot out. Regarding Katic, to me she hasn't been so great in any of the other things I have seen her in so I figured she would be free for the scenes and why not take the easy paycheck for a few hours work? (it's possible she chooses badly written projects or projects with poor directors so it may not be her fault) I don't care about Castle having love interests though, I would like Castle PI as a humorous investigation show, though I understand many like and would miss the romance aspects. 

[Lee4U]

I don't understand how some folks assume to speak for "every viewer" - I am not upset she is leaving.  At this point, the only thing I care about (and, I am not speaking for anyone other than myself) is that IF they go forward for another season, it is well written/acted and enjoyable to watch.  And, if it's not, I just won't watch.

Not everyone becomes attached to certain characters in a show - and, those of us who don't, participate here on these forums as well where all opinions and points of view are presumably welcome as long as people are not offensive to others. 

This show simply could not tell their romantic story well - for whatever reasons - and it's a shame that when they realized they had gone off the rails with it and couldn't right the ship, they should have found another way to deal with it - hindsight would suggest they may well have considered them not ever becoming romantic but keeping it as writer and muse but writers changed, etc 

The only thing I have felt cheated about regarding this show is the lousy writing and stories they have been telling.  It's been disappointing to me for a few years.  

[TWP]

Interesting sneak peek. I'm pretty sure they filmed the Castle-Beckett part with split screens and doubles. https://youtu.be/beFZrQOuN4s

[Annec]

37 minutes ago, Lee4U said:

I don't understand how some folks assume to speak for "every viewer" - I am not upset she is leaving.  At this point, the only thing I care about (and, I am not speaking for anyone other than myself) is that IF they go forward for another season, it is well written/acted and enjoyable to watch.  And, if it's not, I just won't watch.

Not everyone becomes attached to certain characters in a show - and, those of us who don't, participate here on these forums as well where all opinions and points of view are presumably welcome as long as people are not offensive to others. 

This show simply could not tell their romantic story well - for whatever reasons - and it's a shame that when they realized they had gone off the rails with it and couldn't right the ship, they should have found another way to deal with it - hindsight would suggest they may well have considered them not ever becoming romantic but keeping it as writer and muse but writers changed, etc 

The only thing I have felt cheated about regarding this show is the lousy writing and stories they have been telling.  It's been disappointing to me for a few years.  

I agree.  Unfortunately, I think the restraints that have been placed on NF and SK working together have really hurt the writing. Plus, this season the writing generally has been very sub par, immature, weak, just bad and uninteresting. 

[TWP]

1 hour ago, Lee4U said:

I don't understand how some folks assume to speak for "every viewer" - I am not upset she is leaving.  At this point, the only thing I care about (and, I am not speaking for anyone other than myself) is that IF they go forward for another season, it is well written/acted and enjoyable to watch.  And, if it's not, I just won't watch.

Not everyone becomes attached to certain characters in a show - and, those of us who don't, participate here on these forums as well where all opinions and points of view are presumably welcome as long as people are not offensive to others. 

 

I don't think anyone here thinks they speak for every viewer.  I've never gotten that impression.  I, for one, certainly don't.  But I know that many viewers -- probably the majority of viewers who participate in internet discussions -- are attached to both characters and the romance is important to those people.  And Stana's presence is important to some of those people too.  I think this is one of the few forums where you won't get flamed for saying that Beckett's character isn't that important to you.

1 hour ago, PugLoaf said:

 

This sounds sort of hilarious and great. Especially if Fillion eats up all the scenery during the shoot out. Regarding Katic, to me she hasn't been so great in any of the other things I have seen her in so I figured she would be free for the scenes and why not take the easy paycheck for a few hours work? (it's possible she chooses badly written projects or projects with poor directors so it may not be her fault) I don't care about Castle having love interests though, I would like Castle PI as a humorous investigation show, though I understand many like and would miss the romance aspects. 

It's true, she might do it.  It might be boring though for those who want to see Fillion in passionate scenes?  Who knows.  I do think he needs to be freed up to find a love interest.

I'm with you.  I think she's really good under the right direction. Bad direction and she has a strong tendency to overact.  See CBGB.  And I hate her fake accents, especially in that movie.

If they "kill" Beckett, I only hope that they find a way to shrug it off.  The equivalent of shirt sniffing for 13 episodes of Season 9 will take the show off my DVR.  I even said back in the 8x04+ days that I'd rather they just broke up and went on happily than resorted to misery, crying shirt sniffing, etc. 

[westwingfan]

Another writer departs, I think that just leaves Christine Roum, Jim Adler, and Adam Frost, apart from the two showrunners, who have pre S8 experience, but I guess that's irrelevant now.

Chad Gomez Creasey ‏@chadgcreasey 5m5 minutes ago

#Castle fans! Thank you for 3 great seasons, but it's time for a new story. Excited to join S3 of @NCISNewOrleans!

[westwingfan]

I believe Jim Adler is the one who floated the idea of Castle P.I. in S7 so I guess he's a lock for a S9.

[westwingfan]

4 hours ago, PugLoaf said:

I am one of the few (it seems) that would hate adding more Caskett scenes. Initially I wanted them together/married but since the first missed wedding every romantic scene looks painful, to me there is no chemistry between them, and they drew out the story-line too long. As others have said they should have gotten married the first time, in the Hamptons, no stupid missing time for Castle, and then they should have ended the show on a strong note. 

However, I kind of like the idea of Castle PI, with Alexis, Haley and Castle as leads. They still could have attempted a spin off with this theme even having ended the show at the marriage. (Beckett could have been a very occasional guest because she is a busy police captain not just a wife and it could have focused on the PI firm).

(Disclaimer: I quit watching around ep 4 of this season because seeing Beckett run around on her own investigation into Lockjaw Satellite did nothing for me, it was giving me Quantico vibes) 

The thing is we hardly did see her run around on her own investigation into Loksnore, after the opening episodes it disappeared almost as much as Castle's disappearance did after Montreal. Poor story telling, totally failed to generate any interest or suspense in either story until it was too late.

[westwingfan]

Sounds like Hawley and TPW will still be steerring the Titanic if they get renewed.

Chad Gomez Creasey ‏@chadgcreasey 14m14 minutes ago

And fingers crossed for a S9! @AlexiHawley and @OldManWinter14 have some great adventures to tell. I will miss my #Castle family!

[verdana]

5 hours ago, westwingfan said:

I didn't mean more Caskett romantic scenes, just letting them appear more uninhibited in the on'e we got.  But I agree with you about the clumsiness of what we got, in Hong Kong Hustle Castle seems afraid to touch Beckett when she is lying on top of him, holding his hands away from her instead of embracing her, and in Clear and Present Danger who would lie on the bed with his shoes on fiddling with his thermal imaging goggles when he knows that Beckett has just gone to get ready for some nookie, and in Murder is Forever when Beckett seems to lean in for a kiss after he's shown her the sea shells he brushes past her heading for the bedroom, leaving a rather confused looking Beckett behind, perhaps Fillione didn't appreciate Stana's improvisation. It seems someone wanted a lot of their romantic scenes to be played more for laughs.

Couldn't agree with you more about how painfully clumsy and awkward it got towards the end, Fillion with the dreaded and bizarre "hover thumb" he would employ when touching her at times made me wince, it was like he was handling a dodgy explosive device not the woman he had lusted after for so long lol. Those moments are prime examples of why their so called "romantic" moments did less and less for me to the point where I no longer cared to see them they were so weird. 

As for Fillion playing those kind of scenes more for laughs than anything I agree that's what he almost always seemed to be going for whilst Stana was trying her best to go for genuine romance which made it even more jarring...pity they weren't even funny so epic fail there. Sigh 

Edited April 29, 2016 by verdana

[Lee4U]

Well, TWP, someone did make the statement: "Not without making every viewer feel cheated by the earlier years of the show." -  which, I took to mean what was said.  I was just commenting that I find assumptions such as that unhelpful for a dialogue.

And, that's all I'll say about it at this point.

[femmefan1946]

Look what happened to Ioan Gruffudd's next starring gig, and all he did was kiss her.

I liked Forever, but probably because I have a little thing for Judd Hirsch.

[TWP]

1 hour ago, Lee4U said:

Well, TWP, someone did make the statement: "Not without making every viewer feel cheated by the earlier years of the show." -  which, I took to mean what was said.  I was just commenting that I find assumptions such as that unhelpful for a dialogue.

And, that's all I'll say about it at this point.

I think maybe that you might want to put more stock in the climate of the group, rather than the words of one or a few.  I don't really think in their heart of hearts that they meant that literally every single viewer ever felt this way.

But I think this group covers the whole spectrum of ideas.  And I think, thanks in part to Wendy's hard work, we are all pretty civil about it.

[westwingfan]

It seems the Huffington Post has picked up the story now, not so sure about the emphasis on the sexism angle, but I guess that's what makes it of interest to a more mainstream rag, they do seem to have grasped the importance that Beckett was to the show, however.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/anam-ahmad/stana-katics-dismissal-fr_b_9805572.html

Edited April 29, 2016 by westwingfan

[verdana]

Spoiler Room: Scoop on Grey's Anatomy, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., Blindspot and more at EW

Quote

Anything on the Castle finale? — Snower
Not only will the season-long mystery of LokSat be wrapped up, but so will the series-long mysteries, enabling the producers to kick off a potential ninth season with a clean slate. As for the finale, “It’s an incredibly dynamic, big, large episode where Castle and Beckett are really tested,” EP Terence Paul Winter says. “They have to call on all their friends — be it Espo, Ryan and Hayley — to help them take down the mysterious LokSat.”

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Jewel StaiteVerified account ‏@JewelStaite  4h4 hours ago

Want a sneak peak of my episode of #Castle airing Monday? Okay, here:

https://twitter.com/JewelStaite/status/726116023074742272

 

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Dia ‏@fembot77  1h1 hour ago

Dia Retweeted Shannon

"What is the difference between Titanic and #Castle?" omg

Dia added,

Shannon @Banniss5

@fembot77 @lyn_dowling Kate survived the Titanic

 

Heh.

Edited April 29, 2016 by verdana

[BlakesMomma]

Blog pieces by Katic fans don't really fall into my idea of mainstream Hollywood journalism. And she's clearly a Katic fan who writes for fan blogs if you read her Twitter bio.

[verdana]

Castle 8x20 Sneak Peek #2 "Much Ado About Murder" (HD)

This is ridiculous, how can a mystery writer be leading the investigation into a murder with an assist from the NYPD. Shouldn't it be the other way around?  I'm sorry but I can's suspend disbelief to that extent. S8 is making Beckett look like an idiot. Sigh 

Edited April 29, 2016 by verdana

[BellyLaughter]

We have to endure this kind of BS just so they can launch Castle PI next season??? 

*insert rolls eyes emoji*

[KaveDweller]

Not only will the season-long mystery of LokSat be wrapped up, but so will the series-long mysteries, enabling the producers to kick off a potential ninth season with a clean slate. As for the finale, “It’s an incredibly dynamic, big, large episode where Castle and Beckett are really tested,” EP Terence Paul Winter says. “They have to call on all their friends — be it Espo, Ryan and Hayley — to help them take down the mysterious LokSat.”

 

They are tested, but if they are really killing off Beckett, that suggests they fail the test. I'm really starting to think I should just skip this whole last episode.

Also, what is he talking about with "series-long mysteries"? The only series-long mystery on this show was Beckett's mother's case, and that was already wrapped up.

[TWP]

2 hours ago, verdana said:

Castle 8x20 Sneak Peek #2 "Much Ado About Murder" (HD)

This is ridiculous, how can a mystery writer be leading the investigation into a murder with an assist from the NYPD. Shouldn't it be the other way around?  I'm sorry but I can's suspend disbelief to that extent. S8 is making Beckett look like an idiot. Sigh 

This is the sneak that I'm pretty sure uses body doubles and split screens.  Stana and Nathan likely don't appear together.

Yeah, the writer leading the investigation with police help isn't going to fly with me either. Of course, the idea of a writer following cops around for 8 years isn't a likely scenario either.

2 hours ago, BlakesMomma said:

Blog pieces by Katic fans don't really fall into my idea of mainstream Hollywood journalism. And she's clearly a Katic fan who writes for fan blogs if you read her Twitter bio.

If we get a bunch of these I hope it leads ABC to release what really happened.  I don't think it was sexism.  I think it was two actors who didn't get along, and ABC figured Nathan was the money man. So if they cancel because of this cancel movement, what about the other women who will lose their jobs? Is it fine for the sake of principle? If so, does principle make their mortgage and feed their kids too?

Edited April 30, 2016 by TWP

[Samantha84]

I am just very curious what's next for Stana. I know she has some films ready for release [PS: I am most excited about "Sister Cities"] but will she get back into primetime television? I hope she uses this situation - as her name has been out there more than it's ever been - to her advantage and launches the next phase of her career. Someone snatch this woman up - except ABC! 

[GoGiants]

3 hours ago, verdana said:

Castle 8x20 Sneak Peek #2 "Much Ado About Murder" (HD)

This is ridiculous, how can a mystery writer be leading the investigation into a murder with an assist from the NYPD. Shouldn't it be the other way around?  I'm sorry but I can's suspend disbelief to that extent. S8 is making Beckett look like an idiot. Sigh 

The writers have had the NYPD (Beckett and the rest) behaving more like props for Castle's crazy adventures instead of characters that help drive the story. Ryan and Esposito have, for the most part, been in that role for years, but the addition of Beckett and the precinct as a whole to that category has been disastrous (amongst a season full of disasters!). I don't need it to be perfect on police procedure or have every detail nailed down. But it should at least make sense within the confines of the universe created over the past 7 seasons. Part of that universe was at least putting forth the illusion that the police followed rules and procedures, even if the execution was a bit muddled at times. All of the characters have looked beyond stupid this season, including Castle and his family and most especially all of the cops. Beckett and the rest just look awful. 

Edited April 30, 2016 by GoGiants

[Kromm]

15 minutes ago, Samantha84 said:

I am just very curious what's next for Stana. I know she has some films ready for release [PS: I am most excited about "Sister Cities"] but will she get back into primetime television? I hope she uses this situation - as her name has been out there more than it's ever been - to her advantage and launches the next phase of her career. Someone snatch this woman up - except ABC! 

Anything is possible--especially if she knew ahead of time she was getting the boot. But honestly the odds are against her. As a moral thing we're probably all going to decry the combination of ageism and sexism at work here, but the ugly truth is that she's joining a gigantic group of actresses no longer in their first blushes of youth competing for the same few jobs. Indie films, like the ones she's recently cranked out, ARE her best bet--the ones that care least about her age--but clearly they'll do little in the pay department, so hopefully she's banked her money well (especially since a lot of people in her current position wind up banking the Independents they appear in). Primetime TV is a small market shrinking every year. If she'd been given a commitment to a pilot by ABC as part of her exit package, that might be one thing. But as far as we know, she wasn't given such, and jumping networks (even to the cable ones now) means it's a lot of luck (hooking up with the right people and getting the right thing noticed, then also the network not having another person in mind for the role).

Edited April 30, 2016 by Kromm

[WendyCR72]

4 hours ago, Kromm said:

Anything is possible--especially if she knew ahead of time she was getting the boot. But honestly the odds are against her. As a moral thing we're probably all going to decry the combination of ageism and sexism at work here, but the ugly truth is that she's joining a gigantic group of actresses no longer in their first blushes of youth competing for the same few jobs. Indie films, like the ones she's recently cranked out, ARE her best bet--the ones that care least about her age--but clearly they'll do little in the pay department, so hopefully she's banked her money well (especially since a lot of people in her current position wind up banking the Independents they appear in). Primetime TV is a small market shrinking every year. If she'd been given a commitment to a pilot by ABC as part of her exit package, that might be one thing. But as far as we know, she wasn't given such, and jumping networks (even to the cable ones now) means it's a lot of luck (hooking up with the right people and getting the right thing noticed, then also the network not having another person in mind for the role).

Not to mention, for quite some time now, competition has become even more fierce since the population of actors has expanded where some have come from feature films, who are now too "old" to be bankable at the box office but can still act well. So old movie stars take up some of the acting real estate that used to be reserved for "just" TV actors.

Yes, there are more avenues that there weren't even a decade ago with Netflix, Hulu, and Amazon, etc., but - with some exceptions - many cast in those are names from more water-cooler shows (a current example being Elisabeth Moss joining Hulu in The Handmaid's Tale). And, if not movie actors or water-cooler TV actors, there are the always up-and-comers.

Castle may be beloved cotton candy TV-style, but it doesn't get show buzz. So I think Katic may have an uphill battle here. Hell, I think that's kind of why Mariska Hargitay is riding the Law & Order: SVU wave well past its natural expiration date: Because, right or wrong, now being 50+ probably won't afford her the number of opportunities she had in her 20s/30s once it ends. As is the way of women in the acting biz. (Again, there are exceptions, but they seem to be few.)   It sucks, but it's not new.

[femmefan1946]

but the ugly truth is that she's joining a gigantic group of actresses no longer in their first blushes of youth competing for the same few jobs.

 

And yet, frustratingly, movies with central female characters do well at the box office. Jennifer Lawrence and Melissa McCarthy films do well and it will be interesting to see how Melissa Rauch's new release goes . (And she's the only one of the BBT cast to have made a move to cinema). To say nothing of the grande dames, Smith, Dench, Streep, et al.

It sometimes seems to me that it really is sexism, not so much in casting "older" (37 ? Ghu protect us!) actresses as it is in not greenlighting films -- and TV shows that highlight women's interests and concerns.

The Mary Sue and The Toast have done some pretty funny articles on 'boy's night ' movies recast with gender flips. Judy Dench and her fling with Zach Ephron and the like as a side story to taking down a giant conspiracy headed by a foreign despot played by Linda Hunt.

[MaryM47]

The latest issue of TV Guide did a Facebook poll about SK leaving Castle.  Here are some of the responses:

Quote

 

No couple, no need for me to watch.

What the heck is going on?

I hope they kill off Beckett and leave Castle thirsty for vengeance.

Dear ABC: If money is a problem, take all of mine, give it to Stana and bring her along for a proper ending!

 

[Kromm]

5 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Not to mention, for quite some time now, competition has become even more fierce since the population of actors has expanded where some have come from feature films, who are now too "old" to be bankable at the box office but can still act well. So old movie stars take up some of the acting real estate that used to be reserved for "just" TV actors.

Yes, there are more avenues that there weren't even a decade ago with Netflix, Hulu, and Amazon, etc., but - with some exceptions - many cast in those are names from more water-cooler shows (a current example being Elisabeth Moss joining Hulu in The Handmaid's Tale). And, if not movie actors or water-cooler TV actors, there are the always up-and-comers.

Castle may be beloved cotton candy TV-style, but it doesn't get show buzz. So I think Katic may have an uphill battle here. Hell, I think that's kind of why Mariska Hargitay is riding the Law & Order: SVU wave well past its natural expiration date: Because, right or wrong, now being 50+ probably won't afford her the number of opportunities she had in her 20s/30s once it ends. As is the way of women in the acting biz. (Again, there are exceptions, but they seem to be few.)   It sucks, but it's not new.

Lets compare like-to-like. Stana's specific niche. Tough-girl extremely beautiful sarcastic brunettes.

The two closest analogues I can think of are Angie Harmon and Jill Hennesy. 

Harmon is 43 now. She got Rizolli and Isles when she was around 36 I think. But think of the big career gap she had between Law and Order (her run ended in 2001) and R&I (which started in 2010). I think she had trouble finding pilots after she crossed that 30 year old line. She was lucky--REALLY lucky to get Rizolli and Isles. She had Women's Murder Club for about 13 episode in the middle though, so I suppose she wasn't totally shut out. She's in the same position as Katic now, except perhaps leaving more under her own terms (the show ending admittedly wasn't her decision, but she wasn't singled out I mean) puts her in a slightly better position. And R&I gets a goodbye lap of a final 13 episode WITH her that hasn't aired yet. But I bet she and Stana (or their agents) are looking at many of the same scripts (or trying to hook into many of the same pilots). 

Hennesy (now 47) had huge success with Crossing Jordan. That ended in 2007 (so she was around the same age at the time that Stana Katic is now). But her career totally evaporated after that. I've seen her pop up on guest roles, heck even reoccurring multiple episode guest roles, on a few shows (recently: Madam Secretary and previously on The Good Wife), but that's been about all her career is other than a handful of cable TV movies.

Speaking of Madam Secretary, can we have to mention Tea Leoni? Not a brunette like my other examples, and possibly in the past not nearly as TV-centric as Harmon or Hennesy (Tea had a pair of short-lived sitcoms back in the 90s), but her career was basically periodic movie roles as "the wife character" (so never a lead, although admittedly in some big films like Deep Impact and The Family Man). Frankly she's got to be thanking her lucky stars for Madam Secretary. It's mostly because playing a mock (but better looking) Hillary Clinton required an older woman. There was no way for TV casting agents to duck that.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Kromm

[TWP]

Soooo, reading the responses to the Tweet I've posted below, I'm thinking the problem for the fans isn't the sexism. It's something else. If sexism was the worst thing, wouldn't feminist women in the internet fandom treat Molly better? I've found it weird over the years how women in general idolize some women as feminist icons while completely trashing others. It's kind of sad to me really. As a woman, I want to support strong women, even when they aren't my favorite people. I'm not saying that it's good or bad to fire Stana. I'm only saying that Molly is treated rather heartlessly by some Castle viewers. Wouldn't supporting women's rights mean treating Molly with a little respect too? Just an impression.

Edited April 30, 2016 by TWP

[verdana]

There are times when Molly has got on my nerves a bit with some of the things she's said. although I used to give her a free pass due to her age but not so much now. Most sensible fans don't treat her badly but sometimes she puts her foot in her mouth and reaps the whirlwind like many actors do on social media with the more hysterical/crazy/nasty elements of the fanbase.  Also, some fans appear to confuse their dislike of the character with the actor which is unfortunate but it can happen quite a lot. 

As for that ABC tweet, it was so dumb although in hindsight I guess they were getting their marketing S9 prep in early lol. It was like waving a giant red flag at an already angry bull, I was not surprised at the tone of the responses, it wouldn't have made any difference if it had been father and son fighting crime.  That's not  what fans signed up for and were used to watching. Alexis was a secondary character who added substance to Castle through his family life but she was never front and centre. S8 changed her role and so Molly copped some extra flak in places no shock there. Her recent cheer leading of a Stanaless Castle again isn't going to win her any popularity awards or earn her many additional supporters but she obviously wants to stay in a job. 

Emotions are pretty frayed at the minute amongst many fans so increased discourtesy with people lashing out at each other and also cast and crew is an unfortunate side effect of that. 

Edited April 30, 2016 by verdana

[WendyCR72]

9 hours ago, TWP said:

Soooo, reading the responses to the Tweet I've posted below, I'm thinking the problem for the fans isn't the sexism. It's something else. If sexism was the worst thing, wouldn't feminist women in the internet fandom treat Molly better? I've found it weird over the years how women in general idolize some women as feminist icons while completely trashing others.

 

It sucks. But it highlights why I never took that link to the HuffPost article posted here (written by a fan) seriously. There is sexism in Hollywood. Absolutely. But that article, to me, was about using that not to highlight the problem but as a shield to legitimize a fan complaining that a favorite character got the axe.

I get Beckett is popular, but that as the underlying root of that article just seemed to cheapen the message for me.

To bring it back to Molly, sadly it seems that, even if she can irk, many do seem to equate her with Alexis. She can use more finesse, but she also does not write the show. She is promoting it, which is within the scope of her job. And this whole firing deal: She really put her foot in it, I'll even agree there, with the whole "Rick IS Castle" thing. Read the room, Molly! BUT...

I say this entirely speculatively as I have no clue whom she does and does not get along with, but I have also seen vitriol thrown at the actress because she dares to think the show can go on. Maybe it can, maybe it can't. But the fact that she seems to be slammed for not singing the praises of the other co-star is wrong. She - as far as I'm aware - has never slammed Katic. She seems...call it...diplomatic, I guess, about her. But she seems closer to Fillion and considering the man has played her father, it's okay. In our jobs, there are those we tolerate, those we like, and those we loathe. But we do our jobs.

Which, with the promo - even as tone deaf as it was - Molly seemed to be doing. Promoting her job.

If people want to attack over that, complain to ABC. (Although as it is old, it was a harbinger.)

So this whole "women not supporting other women!" and the cries of sexism as a shield sort of leave me cold all the way around.

I'll be the first to say this was handled ALL WRONG, and maybe ABC should just let the show die. But what's done is done. The horse is out of the barn. Now the final choice is for the audience: Watch with only Rick. Or don't.

Just my long-winded opinion here. So take it as such!