S02.E03: The Burning Mill

[AntFTW]

I think Ser Criston should start a restaurant called "Cristy's Chicken." That's been stuck in my head for the last week.

[baldryanr]

4 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Hopefully, he gets his comeuppance soon. But then, GOT characters don't always get what they deserve...

The more blatant baddies tend to (Joffrey, Ramsey, Roose, Walder, Tywin, Cersei, the Mountain, etc.).  It's the soon part that's the bigger question and usually a lot of the good guys die first. 

[Haleth]

Was the guy claiming to be a Targ bastard the same guy we saw last week with the sick kid and expensive groceries?  The same guy that petitioned the king for ~something~ the week before?

[CeeBeeGee]

14 hours ago, millennium said:

I hoped Gwayne Hightower had been recruited by Alicent to resolve her Creston problem once they were away from King's Landing.   But no, Gwayne seems like just a playboy knight, meanwhile the show's most obnoxious character gets to live another episode. 

You have to love the rather sour expression with which he regarded Ser Cripy when they first met in the courtyard. The subtext: "That's the a**h*** who's doing my sister." He clearly had Crispy's number!

I'm a little surprised in the "Previously..." montage they didn't include the little Bracken lord who went full ham on Lord Blackwood at court in front of Rhaenyra.

It was great seeing Milly again. The scene where Daemon's sword-locked door was rattling was spooky as hell.

 

[magdalene]

On reflection this was my least favorite episode this season so far.  I thought it was extra mean-spirited and of dubious taste.

The fake!dong fellatio was just eye-rolling and icky- you are better than this HOTD.

Did they really have to show that poor girl Aegon raped now further abused in the tavern? That's just piling on.

Both Daemon and Rhaenyra were so dumb in this one.   I really hate when they dumb down Daemon from the source material. So disappointing to see him fall for Alys Rivers mumbo-jumbo.

Rhaenyra, a queen shouldn't be this naive.  Rhaenys is not a good role model for you.

The Rhaenyra/Alicent meeting was bad fan fiction.

Edited July 3 by magdalene

[paigow]

35 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Was the guy claiming to be a Targ bastard the same guy we saw last week with the sick kid and expensive groceries?  The same guy that petitioned the king for ~something~ the week before?

No. But he was walking outside the castle last week 

[paigow]

7 hours ago, Dobian said:

Aemond continues to be one of the most interesting characters on the show.  Is fratricide in his future?  Aegon is surely asking for it.

Except Regicide is not a bridge he wants to cross... But setting him up to be killed by Daemon is plausible...

[Spartan Girl]

3 hours ago, baldryanr said:

The more blatant baddies tend to (Joffrey, Ramsey, Roose, Walder, Tywin, Cersei, the Mountain, etc.).  It's the soon part that's the bigger question and usually a lot of the good guys die first. 

Cersei’s comeuppance wasn’t as satisfying as it should have been, but I digress.

[iMonrey]

The actor how plays Gwayne also played King Hugo on The Great. I knew I recognized him from somewhere.

[ChicksDigScars]

20 hours ago, magdalene said:

I don't think I am a pearl clutching prude but I was startled at the real fellatio moment with the erect penis. I didn't know you could show actual porn on non porn?

Damn. I need to re-watch. Totally missed that.

Seasmoke got mention two episodes in a row. Does he (she?) sense that his true master is not really dead? The line "Brother he owes you. He owes US," from last week, and the conversation on who will succeed Corlys as Prince of Tides with Luke being dead and Joff being only six years old, foreshadowing Corlys having bastard sons? Oh, the delightful RBF that we will get from Eve Best if that comes to light!!

Does Seasmoke sense that the two brothers are related to her departed/not actually dead master, Leanor? Thus, is why he/she is circling them and is restless? Am I reaching for the stars, here (tm Miranda Priestly)

I was also rooting for Baela to BBQ Crispy. But, I knew it was too soon, and to do that would be to also incinerate the newly introduced and so far likeable and levelheaded Hightower brother. I am soooo rooting for him to have Crispy's number. 

Yeah, Alicent. You're a cunty dumb ass. Glad you finally realized that your dying husband was deliriously mumbling about a story that he used to tell his favored child, and THAT'S who he was thinking about in his final moments. Not you. Not your dim bulb deviant eldest offspring. You heard what you wanted to hear and your sexual assaulting, bully of a son is  now (literally) drunk with power and lusts for war. And you are powerless to stop it. Not even hand jobbing the Hand will get you your way now. He doesn't pine for you the way he did Rhaenyra. He controls you with sex, not the other way around. 

 

[Stardancer Supreme]

The world building is so delicious to me. While folks may live and die for ACTION, I live for the story unfolding.

Poor Rhaenyra! I like that Rhaenys is her undercover Hand and can give more sensible counsel than the men sitting around waiting with bated breath for war.

Aegon... It's a shame that he just surrenders to his basest level and that baiting Aemond into more kinslayage will totally bite him in the ass later.

Corlys, as cool as he is, is as deeply in the misogyny soup as the other men.  I can see him making his bastard sons legitimate before making Rhaena the rightful heir to Driftmark.  For all of his "she don't know nothing 'bout ships OR dragons" talk, did he bother to teach his granddaughters anything about Driftmark? 

Rhaena is feeling useless and doesn't understand that Rhaenyra has given her many gifts to look after. Depending on how this story will end, she may yet be spared from the horrible fates of her families.

I know everyone wanted Baela to turn Crispy into ashes, but she is the only one who follows instructions.  Had that been Daemon...

Speaking of Daemon, I am liking his adventures at Harrenhal. So Larys hasn't been home since he killed his father and brother? Tracks. And also Daemon expecting Harrenhal to be a stronghold in the Realm when in reality the Strongs have never really recovered from the torching of a dragon long ago really tickled me.  Crispy is headed to the Riverlands, right? Wouldn't he know that Daemon beat him to Harrenhal?

Rhaenyra took a foolish risk just to find out that Alicent Hightower is an idiot. 

 

[millennium]

5 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

I'm a little surprised in the "Previously..." montage they didn't include the little Bracken lord who went full ham on Lord Blackwood at court in front of Rhaenyra.

Thank you, I hadn't remembered they were Bracken and Blackwood in that scene.

1 hour ago, ChicksDigScars said:

Damn. I need to re-watch. Totally missed that.

I missed that too.   Not really feeling the need to rewatch, tho.

[millennium]

16 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Every time I get sucked back into this show, they always bring up that stupid prophecy and I’m reminded how much GOT screwed the pooch and burned us all…but let’s not open that can of worms again.

They should leave the prophecy dormant for this show, because you're right, it always conjures bad, bad feelings,

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Crispy is headed to the Riverlands, right? Wouldn't he know that Daemon beat him to Harrenhal?

Any spies in the area would be sending ravens to Otto  / Castle by default so Crispy is lagging the loop...

[paigow]

1 hour ago, millennium said:

Thank you, I hadn't remembered they were Bracken and Blackwood in that scene.

In a few hundred years, both families will be displaced from their lands by a festival mixing art and debauchery... Burning Mill 

[Oscirus]

In this week's edition, how is this war even going to be close?

All team Green has is home-court advantage and Westeros' misogyny. They lost their smartest adviser. If what that civilian said was true, team black now possesses riders for their unaccompanied dragons, Team Green is divided, and Rhae will no longer restrain her army.

[AntFTW]

Wearing heavy armor while riding a dragon in the cold rain looks... uncomfortable.

[baldryanr]

4 hours ago, Oscirus said:

All team Green has is home-court advantage and Westeros' misogyny. They lost their smartest adviser. If what that civilian said was true, team black now possesses riders for their unaccompanied dragons, Team Green is divided, and Rhae will no longer restrain her army.

Team Black isn't exactly a united front either, with Daemon off wandering around Harrenhal.  Rhaenyra's army isn't actually there yet, and Vhagar is still the most powerful dragon.  Even Daemon wasn't willing to attack by himself, and none of them have actually been in a real dragon vs dragon fight. 

[proserpina65]

10 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

the newly introduced and so far likeable and levelheaded Hightower brother.

Really?  Likeable?  More like pretentious asshole.

10 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

So Larys hasn't been home since he killed his father and brother? Tracks.

Would you be living at Harrenhal if you could be somewhere else with a solid roof over your head?

10 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

For all of his "she don't know nothing 'bout ships OR dragons" talk, did he bother to teach his granddaughters anything about Driftmark? 

And it's not like his previous heir knew anything about ships.  Hell, Lucerys got seasick.

7 hours ago, Oscirus said:

In this week's edition, how is this war even going to be close?

All team Green has is home-court advantage and Westeros' misogyny. They lost their smartest adviser. If what that civilian said was true, team black now possesses riders for their unaccompanied dragons, Team Green is divided, and Rhae will no longer restrain her army.

Rhaenyra doesn't really have an army, just some promises of soldiers.  She has superiority on the seas with the Velaryon navy, although the Lannisters have a navy too, just not as big.  She has more dragons on her side, but some of them are young and only one (Caraxes) has ever seen combat.  Her only decent advisor appears to be Rhaenys.  So she has some advantages but not as many as people seem to think, although if she can successfully find riders for some of those unclaimed adult dragons, that would be a massive plus for her.

The Greens have some advantages.  They're winning the PR war at the moment, which is no small thing when it comes to acquiring more allies.  Vhagar still counts as at least two dragons due to her size, power and extensive battle experience.  They're farther along in assembling actual armies.  And they do have a navy, if a smaller one.  But losing Otto is a huge deal, that's for sure. He wasn't as great as he thought he was, but he was at least able to look ahead and see the wider implications of action.  Now all they have is some hotheads who might be decent tacticians but who are most definitely not good strategists.

[paigow]

10 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Daemon expecting Harrenhal to be a stronghold in the Realm when in reality the Strongs have never really recovered from the torching of a dragon long ago really tickled me. 

People Daemon needs to find more than soldiers...

[Maurina]

On 7/1/2024 at 12:59 AM, magdalene said:

I don't think I am a pearl clutching prude but I was startled at the real fellatio moment with the erect penis. I didn't know you could show actual porn on non porn?

I have to admit for about a millisecond I was shocked and then I just laughed.  Freakin' HBO, they always try to SHOCK!! the viewer with this kind of stuff.  The next thought I had was "that poor actress, what was the audition like? Did they start with 'okay so you'll be sucking on a massive fake dong'?  Was she like "hang on, my agent didn't tell me it was THIS kind of job"?

Really what was the point of that other than shock value?  It's a brothel.  We know that. You don't have to shove it in our faces.
(pun totally intended).

[ChicksDigScars]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

Really?  Likeable?  More like pretentious asshole.

Well, he wouldn't be a Hightower if he wasn't. And if he has Crispy's number, doesn't bow to him, and possibly undermines him (or BONUS, causes his death) , that's as likable as I'm willing to call anyone on Team Green. Except Heleana. She gets a pass.

[iMonrey]

4 hours ago, baldryanr said:

Even Daemon wasn't willing to attack by himself, and none of them have actually been in a real dragon vs dragon fight. 

Aemond has. Which is why I find it curious he's so unconcerned about going at it again. He above all else knows you can't necessarily control the dragons once they start going after each other. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

On 7/1/2024 at 6:45 AM, KBrownie said:

Rhaenyra risking herself to go see Alicent was such a dumb move on her part. She’s had more than enough evidence that Alicent does not value her in any way. Alicent says all the right words, but every one of her actions prove otherwise. It was frustrating to once again have to watch Rhaenyra humiliate herself and practically beg Alicent for anything while Alicent smugly defends herself and her actions. YOU are the queen Rhaenyra.  Act like it. Alicent ain’t shit. How many times does she have to show you?  It’s over. 

Not to mention there is ample recent evidence that Alicent can't do shit to stop her sons from doing whatever stupid thing they decide to do. Even if she miraculously becomes a pacifist out of the blue, this would count for naught if the actual king says "Nah, shut up, mother, I want war". The whole plan was so hare-brained that rivaled Daemon's usual dumb schemes. I guess it runs in the family.

Rhaenyra's whole attitude is just bewildering for someone who for decades has believed herself to be the next ruler of Westeros. Smallfolk suffering would be the last thing on the mind of the vast majority of medieval claimants for thrones - for them their own interest were the only thing that mattered and they usually honestly believed that it would be even for the greater good if they were to press their rightful claims. Even if said claims were actually rightful only if you squinted really, really hard. If Rhaenyra cares so much for the ordinary folk she can, you know, renounce her claim. She didn't punish Rhaenys when her stunt in King's Landing killed many bystanders, she didn't punish Daemon for his assassination of a child, she doesn't want to use her advantage in dragons to win the civil war as quickly as possible, so her whining about people suffering comes across as extremely hypocritical at this juncture. If you insist on calling yourself queen in a land where there is someone calling himself king in a capital, there will be war between you. Hell, people knew it a decade ago. Wake up and smell the burning villages!

Also, your allies are blockading King's Landing, this is currently harming the smallfolk far more than some dragon potentially fighting another dragon in the middle of nowhere.

Not that Alicent is any smarter, mind you. It doesn't fucking matter what Viserys said or didn't say, it's a hereditary monarchy with primogeniture which occasionally picks a successor via a great council of the nobles, not "the ruler picks whoever he wants to succeed him and the choice is valid even if there were no witnesses other than the claimant's mother" kind of monarchy because, you know, there is no such thing. Just be honest and say your faction took the throne because most Westeros nobles didn't want, gasp, a woman, on the throne and said woman didn't lift a finger to prevent that extremely obvious plot from happening.

Watching Criston Cole trying to think what to say during the privy council was like watching a dog trying to solve differential equations. Everyone seemed to behave like Harrenhal is a short jaunt away from King's Landing while I am pretty sure that it is not.

Edited July 2 by Jack Shaftoe

[aghst]

Didn't Alison slut-shame Raynera in season 1?

So why would she think sneaking into Kings Landing for a one to one convo would be a good idea?

Maybe the note Alison wrote to Raynera was some big attempt to bridge the divide.  Did we see what it said when she sent it?

 

[ChicksDigScars]

35 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Watching Criston Cole trying to think what to say during the privy council was like watching a dog trying to solve differential equations. 

🤣

My money is on the dog coming up with an answer faster than Crispy. They'd both give up and start humping the nearest leg, first.

 

[KBrownie]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Aemond has. Which is why I find it curious he's so unconcerned about going at it again. He above all else knows you can't necessarily control the dragons once they start going after each other. 

That was a fight?  What was the fight?
 

Wasn’t that Aemond chasing down another dragon who was doing nothing but trying to run away and not engage until it felt threatened and defended it self once?  What was the fight?  It’s not like Vhagar was in a back and forth with Arrax. 
 

I’m sure psychotic Aemond thinks that was a fight, and that he didn’t start it. Similar to how he thinks that Daemon is as obsessed with him as he is with Daemon. 
 

For all the talk about how great a fighter Aemond is and all his false bravado, it’s never been proven on-screen that he’s some great and powerful warrior. His only actual “fight” that has been shown other than training has been the one with Luke, which, if that’s what he’s resting his laurels on, means nothing. That’s why he’s so eager for war. He wants to show how great of his fighter he is. 
 

Aemond will likely get his big fight against Daemon, and my bets will be on Daemon. Dragon or not. Aemond’s too emotional and arrogant and it seems like the story is leading toward that being his downfall. 

Edited July 2 by KBrownie

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

Well, he wouldn't be a Hightower if he wasn't. And if he has Crispy's number, doesn't bow to him, and possibly undermines him (or BONUS, causes his death) , that's as likable as I'm willing to call anyone on Team Green. Except Heleana. She gets a pass.

I wouldn't disagree with you about him except that he was the spoiled summer knight who'd never seen combat and Criston actually knows what he's talking about in this situation.

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Aemond has. Which is why I find it curious he's so unconcerned about going at it again. He above all else knows you can't necessarily control the dragons once they start going after each other. 

I'm not sure I'd consider what happened at Storm's End an actual fight between dragons, but I do wonder about Aemond not being more concerned with the issue of controlling them once they get into battle.  Maybe he is privately but I imagine he isn't going to express that concern to anyone because he'd have to admit he lost control of Vhagar.

[paigow]

4 hours ago, KBrownie said:

my bets will be on Daemon.

Unless those ghosts make him freeze up... 

[AntFTW]

7 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Would you be living at Harrenhal if you could be somewhere else with a solid roof over your head?

Seems like the whole immediate family decided to ditch Harrenhal. Lord Strong, Harwin and Larys were all in King's Landing under a solid roof. 😂

7 hours ago, Maurina said:

I have to admit for about a millisecond I was shocked and then I just laughed.  Freakin' HBO, they always try to SHOCK!! the viewer with this kind of stuff.  The next thought I had was "that poor actress, what was the audition like? Did they start with 'okay so you'll be sucking on a massive fake dong'?  Was she like "hang on, my agent didn't tell me it was THIS kind of job"?

Let's hope Tom Glynn-Carney got it right on the first take so she didn't have to do it again. 😂

[Affogato]

On 7/1/2024 at 4:21 PM, AntFTW said:

I think Ser Criston should start a restaurant called "Cristy's Chicken." That's been stuck in my head for the last week.

This would be the safer option. 

[Cool Breeze]

I understand that dragons are the most feared and fearsome weapons in Westeros.  I do.  But aren't they just a little more than fighter jets?  I mean, they're cool and deadly but F-18s don't hold ground.  People on the ground hold ground.  The winning side will need troops, foot soldiers, in order to keep the defeated in line.  Dragons may soften the ground but armies will hold it.  So, shouldn't ultimate victory mostly turn on who has more troops?

[aghst]

The GoT creators called dragons nuclear weapons.

We haven't seen too much of the dragons landing and attacking soldiers on the ground in HotD but I seem to recall such battles in GoT.

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 minutes ago, Cool Breeze said:

I understand that dragons are the most feared and fearsome weapons in Westeros.  I do.  But aren't they just a little more than fighter jets?  I mean, they're cool and deadly but F-18s don't hold ground.  People on the ground hold ground.  The winning side will need troops, foot soldiers, in order to keep the defeated in line.  Dragons may soften the ground but armies will hold it.  So, shouldn't ultimate victory mostly turn on who has more troops?

I think dragons are analogous to fighter jets plus nukes. There's some reasonable hope of ground-based troops shooting down fighter jets. (Yes, I know scorpions are anti-dragon weapons that exist, but they do not seem likely to be very effective against a decent dragon/dragon-rider in a well-written story, RIP Rhaegal who was done dirty. You can't deploy Scorpions wherever, whenever the way you could, say, a rocket launcher). 

Another point to consider: Part of what will get and keep the ground troops is that air superiority. Each of the houses has to fear that if they don't side with one team or the other, the winning team will use its dragons to burn the f--- out of their strongholds. There's the usual stuff that is going to pull houses to one side or another -- religion, opportunism, age-old prejudices, popular sentiment, propaganda, etc. -- but who has more and better dragons is probably a big part in many of those factors. 

 

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Cool Breeze said:

So, shouldn't ultimate victory mostly turn on who has more troops?

Hitler could not invade England because the RAF neutralized the Luftwaffe. He was unable to deploy his numerically superior army.

Jaime Lannister and Bronn watched their army get roasted. 

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Another point to consider: Part of what will get and keep the ground troops is that air superiority. Each of the houses has to fear that if they don't side with one team or the other, the winning team will use its dragons to burn the f--- out of their strongholds. There's the usual stuff that is going to pull houses to one side or another -- religion, opportunism, age-old prejudices, popular sentiment, propaganda, etc. -- but who has more and better dragons is probably a big part in many of those factors.

Other than Aegon and Aemond, do the Greens have any other dragon riders?

2 hours ago, Cool Breeze said:

I understand that dragons are the most feared and fearsome weapons in Westeros.  I do.  But aren't they just a little more than fighter jets?  I mean, they're cool and deadly but F-18s don't hold ground.  People on the ground hold ground.  The winning side will need troops, foot soldiers, in order to keep the defeated in line.  Dragons may soften the ground but armies will hold it.  So, shouldn't ultimate victory mostly turn on who has more troops?

Isn't that what they're going for? The Blacks and the Greens are heading to the Riverlands for troops.

[Cool Breeze]

59 minutes ago, paigow said:

Hitler could not invade England because the RAF neutralized the Luftwaffe. He was unable to deploy his numerically superior army.

Jaime Lannister and Bronn watched their army get roasted. 

That was air-to-air.  Not analagous to this scenario where only one side has "aircraft", i.e., dragons.  

Yes, we saw armies roasted by dragons but we also saw a dragon easily impaled by a scorpion.  There's a very real, reasonable fear of dragons but we also saw where there was no fear, dragons were vulnerable.

[go4luca]

23 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Rhaenyra took a foolish risk just to find out that Alicent Hightower is an idiot. 

I saw it a bit differently.  To me she took a huge risk all in the name of trying to find a path towards peace.  For me, that is the sign of a ruler who truly cares about the kingdom.

Not to mention she now knows the truth of who Viserys chose to become King.

[Oscirus]

5 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Other than Aegon and Aemond, do the Greens have any other dragon riders?

 

 

 

Technically, they have two other riders: Helena, who I doubt will ride a dragon, and Otto was talking this season about his grandson in Old Town, who is almost ready to ride his dragon.

Edited July 3 by Oscirus

[yellowfred]

So, I can't figure out why, in that last scene, Alicent doesn't bring up the dream Viserys told her about (the one where his son would wear the conqueror's crown).  Like, I may not like that his deathbed confession is what changed her mind about putting Aegon on the throne, but I wish they'd at least acknowledge that that was the most obvious connection she could have made when he started talking about Aegon and dreams. 

12 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

I'm not sure I'd consider what happened at Storm's End an actual fight between dragons, but I do wonder about Aemond not being more concerned with the issue of controlling them once they get into battle.  Maybe he is privately but I imagine he isn't going to express that concern to anyone because he'd have to admit he lost control of Vhagar.

That's kind of my guess, too.  Like, admitting he made a mistake (to someone other than the prostitute he's currently frequenting) isn't going to undo anything, so it's probably easier to pretend that it was a choice he made.

[AntFTW]

39 minutes ago, yellowfred said:

So, I can't figure out why, in that last scene, Alicent doesn't bring up the dream Viserys told her about (the one where his son would wear the conqueror's crown).  Like, I may not like that his deathbed confession is what changed her mind about putting Aegon on the throne, but I wish they'd at least acknowledge that that was the most obvious connection she could have made when he started talking about Aegon and dreams.

I would say (1) that it was so long enough that she may not remember; and (2) he has continuously reaffirmed since then that Rhaenyra will succeed him so those “stale” words may hold less weight now.

Also, Alicent truly did believe Viserys changed his mind about Rhaenyra being his successor. Alicent truly believed that his finals words were the ones that directly confirmed that Viserys wanted Aegon to succeed him. Alicent believed that those final words were the most obvious connection.

[RobertDeSneero]

On 7/1/2024 at 7:36 AM, scarynikki12 said:

I want more details on Seasmoke. He's back and seems distressed so are we to think Laenor has died offscreen?

I believe Seasmoke never left because Laenor just outright abandoned his dragon.

Next series, we're getting man-on-man fellatio.

Alicent is ultimately looking for whatever path is most likely to have her children alive and not sent to the Wall.  The past is a sunk cost.  Given what has transpired, given whatever mistakes have been made, what other option does she have but to stay the course?

If only Viserys had accepted Otto's suggestion of betrothing then-two-year-old Aegon to Rhaenyra.  Another option would have been another event like the Great Council of Harrenhal to let the lords discuss and vote on it.  Maybe Rhaenyra wouldn't have loved the idea because that council chose Viserys over Rhaenys and maybe Otto should have embraced it for the same reason.

[DigitalCount]

16 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Aemond has. Which is why I find it curious he's so unconcerned about going at it again. He above all else knows you can't necessarily control the dragons once they start going after each other. 

It could be that he's hoping to get into a fight because of that. Maybe he thinks it'll wash away his fears that he's not really in control, and that Vhagar killing Luke was just a fluke, a freak accident that isn't likely to happen again. Without another fight, all he has is the one data point, and it's not great for him.

[baldryanr]

6 hours ago, yellowfred said:

That's kind of my guess, too.  Like, admitting he made a mistake (to someone other than the prostitute he's currently frequenting) isn't going to undo anything, so it's probably easier to pretend that it was a choice he made.

Not just easier - if he admits it was an accident then he's the doofus who can't control the most dangerous dragon alive.

9 hours ago, go4luca said:

I saw it a bit differently.  To me she took a huge risk all in the name of trying to find a path towards peace.  For me, that is the sign of a ruler who truly cares about the kingdom.

Not to mention she now knows the truth of who Viserys chose to become King.

If peace at all costs is her goal then the solution is simple - give up her claim and move to Essos.  Same for the Greens - if they truly want peace then surrender now before anyone else dies. 

Rhaenyra might (rightfully) think she's a better ruler than Aegon, but the truth is most of the actual day-to-day stuff outside of King's Landing is handled by the Great Houses.  As long as the King/Queen isn't actively malicious, it's not going to matter who sits on the throne.

[Uncle JUICE]

Loved this episode, but need to ask this community a question. Do we need an answer to why, if Rhaenyra is in the sept ostensibly to appeal to Alicent to end the war as bloodlessly as possible, would Alicent let Rhaenyra leave the sept? For me, I kinda need an answer to how she got out. THink about it: Rhaenyra's appeal is that because Alicent misunderstood or had incomplete information, that she should be able to talk Aegon, somehow, off the throne...I guess? I'm not sure how she thought this would work. Clearly this is not possible and completely unprecedented and really, would likely NOT end a war because there would still be factions who wanted this heir or that heir, and could be rallied (this is the original problem Otto points out in S1). But!

If Alicent hears all this about the mistake she made, then decides yes, I can end this war quickly and without needless bloodshed, even if I'm wrong about why my son is on the throne...wouldn't she call the guards, summon some sort of security, even a few septas or whatever to say "KEEP AN EYE ON THIS PRETENDER who is armed and threatened my life while I go get proper knights"? 

I guess I really would like to see Rhaenyra's exit plan. Great episode though. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

11 hours ago, Cool Breeze said:

That was air-to-air.  Not analagous to this scenario where only one side has "aircraft", i.e., dragons.  

Yes, we saw armies roasted by dragons but we also saw a dragon easily impaled by a scorpion.  There's a very real, reasonable fear of dragons but we also saw where there was no fear, dragons were vulnerable.

The death of Rheagal was, again, BS.

But even putting aside that this was a function of bad writing as the clip above suggests, I would be slow to consider Rhaegal's death meaningful precedent for the situation in HOD on a couple grounds.

1. Rhaegal was a relatively young and unsophisticated dragon compared to most at play here. Rhaegal was 7 years old when she died, according to the Internet. That's barely a hatchling, with less time for her armor to grow and for her to be battle savvy. I am guessing the youngest dragon that might actually be fielded in this war is more like twice that age, and some are a hundred or more. These dragons all receive much more care and guidance  than Dani was able to provide. operating on the fly and with no pre-knowledge of dragon maintenance.

2. Rhaegal wasn't ridden at the time she was shot down. Presumably any dragon being fielded here would have a rider and thus be more likely to be able to avoid danger, or if struck, to react quicker than poor Rhaegal. And again, Dani figured out riding on her own and on the fly, if you will. It seems all the dragonriders in HOD have had years of training and experience in doing so. 

3. We saw how Drogon and Dani were able to make short work of all the Scorpions protecting King's Landing. If we ignore the prospect that this is just more inconsistent/bad writing, it underscores that a powerful enough dragon with a competent rider has little to worry about from Scorpions when prepared for them.

4. Even if we were to ignore Drogon's dispatch of the Scorpions as any sort of precedent, the fact remains that Scorpions have a few problems as a line of defense. It takes a lot of effort to load and aim one, and against a target that is reasonably elusive, a crew would almost certainly be hard-pressed to score a hit. A Scorpion from what we've seen also takes a fairly long time to reload. So after you fire off your one shot, you are vulnerable. It also seems like a fairly obvious anti-Scorpion tactic is to fly out of range of the Scorpions and divebomb and destroy one before the crew can react, rinse and repeat. Finally, it seems a lot to ask for the Scorpion operators to be fearless knowing they are going to be the first targets for dragons. It's one thing to be bold in the abstract, but face to face with one, there are few who would not need the brown pants.

Edited July 3 by Chicago Redshirt

[Chicago Redshirt]

21 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Loved this episode, but need to ask this community a question. Do we need an answer to why, if Rhaenyra is in the sept ostensibly to appeal to Alicent to end the war as bloodlessly as possible, would Alicent let Rhaenyra leave the sept? For me, I kinda need an answer to how she got out. THink about it: Rhaenyra's appeal is that because Alicent misunderstood or had incomplete information, that she should be able to talk Aegon, somehow, off the throne...I guess? I'm not sure how she thought this would work. Clearly this is not possible and completely unprecedented and really, would likely NOT end a war because there would still be factions who wanted this heir or that heir, and could be rallied (this is the original problem Otto points out in S1). But!

If Alicent hears all this about the mistake she made, then decides yes, I can end this war quickly and without needless bloodshed, even if I'm wrong about why my son is on the throne...wouldn't she call the guards, summon some sort of security, even a few septas or whatever to say "KEEP AN EYE ON THIS PRETENDER who is armed and threatened my life while I go get proper knights"? 

I guess I really would like to see Rhaenyra's exit plan. Great episode though. 

I'm with you that it is bad writing that Rhae would have contemplated this plan and that Ali didn't immediately have Rhae seized. I imagine next episode will gloss over how Rhae made it back to Dragonstone/why Ali didn't call for Rhae's capture. But maybe there will be a riproaring escape sequence or something showing that Rhae had planned a way out should Ali have done the sane thing and ordered her arrest or if Ali had screamed.

[DigitalCount]

Personally, I could see Alicent deciding not to take Rhaenyra captive out of shame. She's not an idiot; she knows that she was wrong about what Viserys was saying on his deathbed, and she knows that to a degree the fallout is her fault, and that she's now consciously making the decision to defy the king's wishes for his succession. I can see the mental A-to-B that would let her feel like it would only be "fair" to let Rhaenyra go free from the Sept as a way to quiet her own guilt. I don't know that that would definitely be her reasoning, but it feels like it fits.

[Uncle JUICE]

39 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

 

4. Even if we were to ignore Drogon's dispatch of the Scorpions as any sort of precedent, the fact remains that Scorpions have a few problems as a line of defense. It takes a lot of effort to load and aim one, and against a target that is reasonably elusive, a crew would almost certainly be hard-pressed to score a hit. A Scorpion from what we've seen also takes a fairly long time to reload. So after you fire off your one shot, you are vulnerable. It also seems like a fairly obvious anti-Scorpion tactic is to fly out of range of the Scorpions and divebomb and destroy one before the crew can react, rinse and repeat. Finally, it seems a lot to ask for the Scorpion operators to be fearless knowing they are going to be the first targets for dragons. It's one thing to be bold in the abstract, but face to face with one, there are few who would not need the brown pants.

THis makes me feel seen. Bunch of fucking bullshit, the Scorpions. If I could go back in time and change a scene, the one where Cersei sees Qyburn's plan would have ended with her swigging a wine, laughing sardonically and saying "No, seriously, though, what are we going to do about the dragons? Because this ain't gonna work. Should I just start working on contacts in Essos to see if I can just cede the throne and take refuge there, you think? Someplace I can just fuck my brother in peace, honestly that's all I want, I clearly don't enjoy ruling Westeros, like not even a tiny bit."

[Uncle JUICE]

37 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

Personally, I could see Alicent deciding not to take Rhaenyra captive out of shame. She's not an idiot; she knows that she was wrong about what Viserys was saying on his deathbed, and she knows that to a degree the fallout is her fault, and that she's now consciously making the decision to defy the king's wishes for his succession. I can see the mental A-to-B that would let her feel like it would only be "fair" to let Rhaenyra go free from the Sept as a way to quiet her own guilt. I don't know that that would definitely be her reasoning, but it feels like it fits.

I am not sure this tracks here. She's not consciously making the decision to deft the king's wishes for succession, as much as she's protecting the lives of her children and grand children (one of which, at least, Rhaenyra is responsible for killing in his bed). There's no way to protect her children if Rhaenyra is alive, right? There simply isn't a solution where everyone lives happily ever after. Perhaps Alicent wouldn't be able to see that past her former friendship with Rhaenyra AND her guilt about her own hypocrisy over why it's started, but that's all sunken cost now. Letting her leave is almost sure to cost her more in the end when the war forces one or more of her children into danger. 

ETA: I wish that scene would have featured Alicent ending it by saying "If you truly want a bloodless war, Rhaenyre, surrender to me, now, right here. I swear before these gods in this holy place that I will not let harm come to you or your children." THen what happens?

Edited July 3 by Uncle JUICE