S09.E26: Transgender Rights

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Main topic: Transgender Rights

Also:  The war in Ukraine; The Crimean Bridge Made with Love; more electrifying small talk from San Antonio's Kimberley and Esteban 

Original air date 2022.10.16

[Annber03]

Hey, Bloomberg? Speaking as somebody who was born in, raised in, and still currently lives in "middle America", I would be totally fine with Democrats coming out here and standing up for and educating people on the importance of supporting transgender/non-binary rights, and the rights of the LGBTQA+ community in general. I think that's a very important issue that would benefit a lot of people in very significant ways. So kindly shut up and QUIT FUCKING SPEAKING FOR PEOPLE LIKE ME.  Jesus Christ, I am so beyond sick and tired of that nonsense. 

That being said, can I please see my state popping up on this show for good legislation again? There are a lot of us liberals living out in this part of the country, Democrats, I beg of you, please, please, PLEASE come out here and help rally us instead of writing us off as a total lost cause. They might actually be pleasantly surprised at the response they'd get. 

Chris Rufo: "I'm using the same kind of reporting..." 

Me: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." 

Also, "Trans stripper". Wow. 

You know the thing that really kills me about the boogeyman nonsense that comes with the idea of transgender kids playing sports? The same people freaking out about this and complaining it causes an "unfair advantage" are the ones you will inevitably hear whining about "participation trophy culture"., and how kids just need to "suck it up and learn that life isn't fair" and so on. I also love all these people freaking out over the idea that people are somehow forcing kids into these surgeries...aside from John obviously pointing out just how absurd that argument is on its face, I mean, these same people sure as hell don't seem to give a shit about the state interfering in women's bodies when it comes to whether or not they get to have an abortion, so sit the fuck down and spare me your pearl clutching. 

Also, please, for everyone's sanity, read up on how comparisons work before spouting nonsense. I realize that's apparently too much to ask of some people nowadays, but... 

I tell you what, though, I just wish the people who spent their days wringing their hands over transgender kids and LGBTQA+ children in general would put this much energy towards freaking out over the fact children are being massacred in school shootings. Maybe we'd actually get somewhere on solving that actual serious, dangerous issue that, y'know, actually affects and traumatizes, hurts, and kills children.

In other topics, that Crimea romance show was....something.  As was that appeal to France for more military aid. 

[ahisma]

1 hour ago, Annber03 said:

That being said, can I please see my state popping up on this show for good legislation again?

Saaaaaame! 

I’ve told people the same as that student wrestler before—the amount of therapy and difficulty (and often, social condemnation) that people go through coming out as transgender, they’re NOT doing it “just because” they want to win at sports or peep on someone in the bathroom. The fact that it keeps getting regenerated as a talking point to win elections is infuriating, and so harmful to the trans community. 

I know John was bowled over by the Crimean Bridge movie, but I love the romance between the Ukrainian military and Macron…

[Quickbeam]

I wish John had dealt with the Lia Thomas issue which I find good people on both sides can disagree.

[Notwisconsin]

The Attack on Furries without calling them Furries was hilarious. Furries (people who identify as animals) do exist.

[andromeda331]

I loved the responses from the kids. Yeah, they really don't care. Their busy worry about grades and stuff. I've wondered if that was the case. All we ever hear about are the adults who already are assholes. Of course Bloomberg thinks everyone in the Midwest thinks that way. Way to generalize people moron. Liberals live there too. Or people who just don't care. 

I wish there was this worry around youth sports when it comes to coaches who are child molesters. If they were all fired up about that maybe there would be a lot less of that. 

I love every time John goes on Dr. Seuss rhymes about Ted Cruz. 

[cuppasun]

17 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Hey, Bloomberg? Speaking as somebody who was born in, raised in, and still currently lives in "middle America", I would be totally fine with Democrats coming out here and standing up for and educating people on the importance of supporting transgender/non-binary rights, and the rights of the LGBTQA+ community in general. I think that's a very important issue that would benefit a lot of people in very significant ways. So kindly shut up and QUIT FUCKING SPEAKING FOR PEOPLE LIKE ME.  Jesus Christ, I am so beyond sick and tired of that nonsense. 

That being said, can I please see my state popping up on this show for good legislation again? There are a lot of us liberals living out in this part of the country, Democrats, I beg of you, please, please, PLEASE come out here and help rally us instead of writing us off as a total lost cause. They might actually be pleasantly surprised at the response they'd get. 

Chris Rufo: "I'm using the same kind of reporting..." 

Me: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." 

Also, "Trans stripper". Wow. 

You know the thing that really kills me about the boogeyman nonsense that comes with the idea of transgender kids playing sports? The same people freaking out about this and complaining it causes an "unfair advantage" are the ones you will inevitably hear whining about "participation trophy culture"., and how kids just need to "suck it up and learn that life isn't fair" and so on. I also love all these people freaking out over the idea that people are somehow forcing kids into these surgeries...aside from John obviously pointing out just how absurd that argument is on its face, I mean, these same people sure as hell don't seem to give a shit about the state interfering in women's bodies when it comes to whether or not they get to have an abortion, so sit the fuck down and spare me your pearl clutching. 

Also, please, for everyone's sanity, read up on how comparisons work before spouting nonsense. I realize that's apparently too much to ask of some people nowadays, but... 

I tell you what, though, I just wish the people who spent their days wringing their hands over transgender kids and LGBTQA+ children in general would put this much energy towards freaking out over the fact children are being massacred in school shootings. Maybe we'd actually get somewhere on solving that actual serious, dangerous issue that, y'know, actually affects and traumatizes, hurts, and kills children.

In other topics, that Crimea romance show was....something.  As was that appeal to France for more military aid. 

Annber03, this queer, nb elder, their trans grandson and queer daughter all thank you for this magnificent rant. Basically saved me a lot of typing! (Though I did yell all of this and more at the screen while watching...) I've lived in a bunch of the states we never hear good of anymore in my younger years, but have been a west-coaster for decades now, and to be honest...I'd never go back, at this point. I know y'all progressives are there (I've still got family and others there, and I'm damn grateful to all of you for carrying the standard in sometimes hostile conditions), but I live with enough apprehension even where I am, and just wouldn't be willing to give up having some legal protections (so far, anyway!).

It's always startling to see the "[insert current enemy/group to denigrate here] are both mysteriously powerful but also creepily weak and useless" propaganda happening in real time, and more than a bit disconcerting to be a member of that group. I mean, I spent a lot of my life joking about how the Jewish World Controllers seemed to never update their records, because I never got any checks... and now I find I've apparently been imbued with the powers of the Pied Piper (while I slept, I guess? I didn't feel it happening. And I can say definitively it doesn't work on the cat.). Really, I'd rather have magical healing abilities (like ET?)--now that would do me some good. Just not being cisgender is honestly kinda boring.

Glad John covered this. The attacks are really ramping up, so there's kind of no such thing as too much (positive and ally) attention. And yeah, Bloomberg is singing the pale, pathetic song of the terminally center-right and he's so full of shit. There are plenty of folk about, everywhere, who respond robustly to unapologetically progressive, inclusive and more leftist socio-political positions. I'm always chuffed to see it. Thanks!

[peeayebee]

4 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I love every time John goes on Dr. Seuss rhymes about Ted Cruz. 

I thought this was a particularly excellent rhyme.

When the war in Ukraine started, I naively thought that if only Putin were out of the picture, the rest of the Russian government would decide to withdraw because they saw how immoral the war was and that the economic sanctions were harming the country. I'm sure there are members of the government who are against Putin but can't do anything to stop him, but there are also plenty of Russians, like General Armageddon, who are only too happy to keep killing Ukrainians and destroying their country. I just don't see how this is going to end in any way favorable to Ukraine.

As for the main story, I wish people would mind their own business. I'm sure the rationale is that they're protecting children, but I think the main motivation for all the anti LGBTQ bloviating and legislation is that these people think we should be living in Mayberry RFD, as if that ever existed. It's change that causes some people to get their hackles up.

Those fish were CREEPY, but I LOL'd every time John made their weird face and noise.

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I thought this was a particularly excellent rhyme.

When the war in Ukraine started, I naively thought that if only Putin were out of the picture, the rest of the Russian government would decide to withdraw because they saw how immoral the war was and that the economic sanctions were harming the country. I'm sure there are members of the government who are against Putin but can't do anything to stop him, but there are also plenty of Russians, like General Armageddon, who are only too happy to keep killing Ukrainians and destroying their country. I just don't see how this is going to end in any way favorable to Ukraine.

I thought that too. I really thought it was just him wanting it and the government and people had no choice. That ended with the amount war crimes being discovered. I'm worried for Ukaine but I'm also worried for other countries. Russia's not going to stop with Ukraine they will keep going until they are stopped. It's just how it is with Russia. But I really don't think the Western leaders understand that. They have really short memories. 

Quote

As for the main story, I wish people would mind their own business. I'm sure the rationale is that they're protecting children, but I think the main motivation for all the anti LGBTQ bloviating and legislation is that these people think we should be living in Mayberry RFD, as if that ever existed. It's change that causes some people to get their hackles up.

Those fish were CREEPY, but I LOL'd every time John made their weird face and noise.

 I don't think most of them are doing it for the kids. They are doing it for themselves. They don't want them around but saying they are doing it to "protect the children" sounds better. It's the same excuse they use to pull books and courses from schools because they don't want them learning about slavery and crap. The kids don't care. The kids are fine. 

[swanpride]

Frankly, if they are worried about bathrooms, they should campaign for better stalls. The gaps in American stalls are riddiculous. 

[andromeda331]

33 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Frankly, if they are worried about bathrooms, they should campaign for better stalls. The gaps in American stalls are riddiculous. 

That would be nice. And maybe add a few more stalls to the girls bathroom. There's never enough.   

[Annber03]

7 hours ago, cuppasun said:

Annber03, this queer, nb elder, their trans grandson and queer daughter all thank you for this magnificent rant. Basically saved me a lot of typing! (Though I did yell all of this and more at the screen while watching...) I've lived in a bunch of the states we never hear good of anymore in my younger years, but have been a west-coaster for decades now, and to be honest...I'd never go back, at this point. I know y'all progressives are there (I've still got family and others there, and I'm damn grateful to all of you for carrying the standard in sometimes hostile conditions), but I live with enough apprehension even where I am, and just wouldn't be willing to give up having some legal protections (so far, anyway!).

I totally understand your hesitance to return. The fight's exhausting enough as it is, I can only imagine how much more tiring and frustrating and disheartening it'd be for those who are most directly affected and witnessing their fellow citizens actively voting for and supporting politicians and policies that will do a great deal of harm to them in all sorts of ways. 

It's just so depressing. My state of Iowa was one of the earliest ones to legalize gay marriage! My family was living in Colorado at the time that happened, and I remember my dad coming home with a copy of the news story about that decision that he'd printed off the computer and excitedly showing it to me. I was so very proud to be a native Iowan in that moment, and being amused by the media acting so shocked that Iowa, of all places, would be one of the early states taking such a significant, positive, progressive step. 

I don't know what the hell happened to my state since then, but I want to go back to that feeling so badly. I don't know how we got from legalizing gay marriage to passing laws that ban transgender students from participating in sports because...um..."reasons". But rest assured I'm going to do my damndest to try and keep helping to change things for the better in any way I possibly can. 

Quote

It's always startling to see the "[insert current enemy/group to denigrate here] are both mysteriously powerful but also creepily weak and useless" propaganda happening in real time, and more than a bit disconcerting to be a member of that group. I mean, I spent a lot of my life joking about how the Jewish World Controllers seemed to never update their records, because I never got any checks... and now I find I've apparently been imbued with the powers of the Pied Piper (while I slept, I guess? I didn't feel it happening. And I can say definitively it doesn't work on the cat.). Really, I'd rather have magical healing abilities (like ET?)--now that would do me some good. Just not being cisgender is honestly kinda boring.

I LOVED that John pointed out that the left doesn't talk about this stuff nearly as constantly as the right tends to. So true. I swear, literally the only time I ever hear these "scary stories" about some supposed extreme example of transgender people being forced to have surgeries or drag queens reading to kids (which I'm still not sure how that's a bad thing...clearly I am scared by very different things than others) or whatever, it's only ever in the context of some right-wing pundit or politician making a big to do about it. Literally nobody would know or care about these nonsense stories if they would quit babbling on about them. 

But yeah, it's both hilarious and very disturbing the kinds of wacky conspiracies people can manage to craft about various minority groups. I feel like that should probably be a clue to these people that these oh-so-scary stories they're sharing are full of shit, because they're just that outlandish and nonsensical, but...

Quote

And yeah, Bloomberg is singing the pale, pathetic song of the terminally center-right and he's so full of shit. There are plenty of folk about, everywhere, who respond robustly to unapologetically progressive, inclusive and more leftist socio-political positions. I'm always chuffed to see it. Thanks!

Seriously, where's the newspaper articles with people interviewing liberal voters in diners for a change? When do we average citizens get to have our time in the spotlight to share our take on these issues? I'd be more than happy to offer my thoughts in an article like that!

[peeayebee]

9 hours ago, swanpride said:

Frankly, if they are worried about bathrooms, they should campaign for better stalls. The gaps in American stalls are riddiculous. 

I have recurring dreams about public restrooms. Well, they're more like nightmares. I sit down and there are no walls betw the stalls. Or the door won't close or just disappears. Or the toilet is disgusting. Or there's no toilet at all, just a hole in the floor. And then when I actually need to use a public restroom, I always open the stall door carefully and check things out. Door works? Check. Toilet is clean? Check. Toilet is there? Check.

9 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I don't think most of them are doing it for the kids. They are doing it for themselves. They don't want them around but saying they are doing it to "protect the children" sounds better. It's the same excuse they use to pull books and courses from schools because they don't want them learning about slavery and crap. The kids don't care. The kids are fine. 

I'm sure there are some people who really believe that these kids are being influenced by the media, that their feelings are not real, and that changing genders is going against God. And since these kids are not being "protected" by their parents, others need to step in. I'm certainly not agreeing with them or even think theirs is a valid opinion.

[paigow]

13 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I always open the stall door carefully and check things out. Door works? Check. Toilet is clean? Check. Toilet is there? Check.

Toilet Paper? None Then you gotta retrieve it from the busted up, hazmat stall

[swanpride]

You never realize that there is no toilet paper until it is too late...

[JustHereForFood]

This was a good one. I've already seen it quoted in another forum that I visit, where political discussion is allowed and the topic there has been quite often recently trans rights. It seems unfortunate that this is a topic that even people who are fine with other minority groups (or at least are polite enough to not complain about them much publicly) think they can shit on. See also some "comedians" thinking it's hilarious to laugh at the group that receives probably the most hate and is victim to violent attacks, homelessness and suicides more often than others. 

And after typing that last sentence, I have to give it to John for highlighting that the stories of trans people can also be happy ones and we shouldn't forget that, because yeah, it's often that we hear mostly about the depressing stuff.

That woman who was mentioned, Abigail Shrier has written a book about her fearmongering, which is often cited in such discussions. Never mind that she is not a sexuologist or any other kind of expert on the topic. And the spike in numbers of teenagers identifying as trans or non-binary... I don't know, could it possibly be related to the fact that people are now talking about it more, so they have the language to name what they feel and how they identify? Or that we just talk more about identity, are more open in the age of social media and tend to share more (sometimes overshare) online? Or that trans people now perhaps feel more safe to be open about their identities, at least in the western World? (see how we don't hear about similar spike in dictatorships). I mean, I'm just spitballing here, it's not like anyone can ask trans people themselves, or have a normal, not heated discussion about the topic with experts from medicine, psychologists and sexuologists, and as said before, trans people. Right?

Regarding sports, I don't have the link, but I've read that there were already cases when people wanted to make sure only cis women participate in the competition and measured their hormones. Guess what? Some cis girls and women have high levels of testosterone, so this can end up hurting them too. I know, right, who would have thought that people have different physiologies? I know it was a case in some high level competition in some African country, sorry for not remembering more clearly, and I swear I've also read it happening in some US school. Remember, the intention that has been stated for these actions is protecting cis women and girls. Also, it seems that such checks could potentially hurt women and girls of color disproportionately. 

All of this seems a bit weird to me, maybe because I've never cared for sports. I would assume that people care about the sport itself, because if it's only about the competition and winning, I can only see it as stressful activity that fails it's purpose of doing something for your health. And it's never going to be fair, because people have different bodies and different natural abilities. Again, using the same logic could potentially lead to cis black people being banned as well, since they ofthen have physical advantages. (Yes, I know it's usually the other side that likes to go to the extreme in their imagined "Where this can lead to...", but is it such a stretch?)

And speaking of bathrooms, people who use wheelchair have had to use one for both genders all the time, if they can manage, why couldn't others? When I was in UK, there were even some cafes that had only one bathroom, with one stall for everyone, men, women, and equiped for people in wheelchair. Probably a necessity because of space, but since tourists ofthen use them, not very practical. But the problem was not unisex bathroom, just the size.

On 10/17/2022 at 5:36 AM, Annber03 said:

I tell you what, though, I just wish the people who spent their days wringing their hands over transgender kids and LGBTQA+ children in general would put this much energy towards freaking out over the fact children are being massacred in school shootings. Maybe we'd actually get somewhere on solving that actual serious, dangerous issue that, y'know, actually affects and traumatizes, hurts, and kills children.

In other topics, that Crimea romance show was....something.  As was that appeal to France for more military aid. 

Yes, this! It's hard to imagine that those people care about children at all, since there is so many other issues they ignore.

As for saying that kids are too young to decide for themselves, I wonder why it's not an issue when parents enter their children into a church without their consent. Baptism is usually done when the kid is just few weeks old, first communion at 8 or 9 (at least for catholics), first confession (which is basically telling your intimate thoughts to a total stranger who is going to judge you based on them) at the same time. In what world is that not a concern for those who care about other people's children? Speaking of irreversible damage to the body, how about circumcision or piercing of the kids ears? Those are done without the kid's consent all the time, instead of puberty blockers and hormonal therapy. And don't get me started on forcing kids to give birth after they were raped (yes, they tried that as well).

Sigh.

Regarding Ukraine, I never knew about that movie, wow! Talk about state propaganda!

Did John mention that the bridge was blown up on Putins's birthday?

On 10/18/2022 at 3:05 AM, peeayebee said:

When the war in Ukraine started, I naively thought that if only Putin were out of the picture, the rest of the Russian government would decide to withdraw because they saw how immoral the war was and that the economic sanctions were harming the country. I'm sure there are members of the government who are against Putin but can't do anything to stop him, but there are also plenty of Russians, like General Armageddon, who are only too happy to keep killing Ukrainians and destroying their country. I just don't see how this is going to end in any way favorable to Ukraine.

Yeah, it's a lot of other people. I have also been praying for his death (and some others around him) daily, but it's still possible that someone worse can come after him. I don't know how and when this is going to end.

On 10/18/2022 at 6:43 AM, andromeda331 said:

I thought that too. I really thought it was just him wanting it and the government and people had no choice. That ended with the amount war crimes being discovered. I'm worried for Ukaine but I'm also worried for other countries. Russia's not going to stop with Ukraine they will keep going until they are stopped. It's just how it is with Russia. But I really don't think the Western leaders understand that. They have really short memories. 

Thank you! As someone from Central Europe that has had long experience with Russia (well, not personally thankfully, as I have been born post 1989' revolution, but my country and my family), this has been my issue since the beginning. Countries from Central and Eastern Europe that have history with Russia have been warning about it for a long time, but some western countries (excluding US and UK thankfully) have been dismissing it. I wish they would listen to us more at least now. 

And sure, not all russians are bad, but well, it's a lot worse than some people can imagine. Most people supported the war, until they were asked to go fight themselves, if they were against it, they would have left in the numbers they are leaving now before the draft was announced. Or protest, sure it's not easy because it's a horrible country with horrible people in power, but Iranian women could do it. And nobody is going to do it for them. Problem is, most people are probably ok with how things are (apart from the draft), after a century of living under dictatorship that imprisons, tortures and kills it's own people, focusing on intelectuals and people from cultural background, people either flee or get indifferent. It's sad but it's true.

And regarding the stuff some people say about it being only Putin's war, spare me! He wasn't the one murdering, torturing and raping people in Ukraine, including small childen, stealing everything from toilet seats to fridges, eating people's pets and deporting their children. Or deliberately targeting schools, hospitals, cultural sites and churches with missile strikes.

You know,  I've heard a lot of stories in my life about people's experiences from the past with russians, about how some people here were more afraid of their soldiers when they helped liberate us from nazis than they were of those nazis, because many of those German soldiers were polite to civilians and didn't engage with them a lot, when they wanted food they paid for it. When russians came, they raped and looted and this was in a country they were supposed to be liberating. When they reached Berlin, the number of atrocities, including thousands of raped women were insane! And of course, all of this was hushed up afterwards.

[Annber03]

8 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

And the spike in numbers of teenagers identifying as trans or non-binary... I don't know, could it possibly be related to the fact that people are now talking about it more, so they have the language to name what they feel and how they identify? Or that we just talk more about identity, are more open in the age of social media and tend to share more (sometimes overshare) online? Or that trans people now perhaps feel more safe to be open about their identities, at least in the western World? (see how we don't hear about similar spike in dictatorships). I mean, I'm just spitballing here, it's not like anyone can ask trans people themselves, or have a normal, not heated discussion about the topic with experts from medicine, psychologists and sexuologists, and as said before, trans people. Right?

This! It's like the people who thought that the rise in people mentioning they were gay was clearly the result of "media influence" or "a trend" or whatever. No, it's because as time went on, they got tired of hiding themselves, rightly so, and they felt more comfortable opening up about who they were as society became more accepting. Or they wanted to be an inspiration to other LGBTQA+ people who were still closeted, to reassure them and give them hope should the day ever come when they decided to come out. 

And that's why I always get a kick out of it when a TV show features more than one gay character in its cast and someone inevitably comes in all, "Well, actually, the amount of people who are gay in this country is only 10%, so this show is overrepresenting that demographic." First off, it's fiction, so, y'know, there's that. In a setting where the most fantastical, out there, crazy things can happen, I guarantee that at no point am I busy worrying about whether or not there's too many gay people in the cast, thus making it "unrealistic". People who say things like that are telling on themselves more than anything else. 

Second, they always say this like they think that's going to be a fixed number that will never change, or is clearly totally accurate. 'Cause it's not like we don't have a bunch of people out there who've either yet to come out, or who haven't fully figured out their sexuality yet, or who have yet to be born and who could one day add to that percentage, or anything. That percentage is likely way higher than they want to think or believe it to be, and it'll keep getting higher as time goes on. 

Quote

Regarding sports, I don't have the link, but I've read that there were already cases when people wanted to make sure only cis women participate in the competition and measured their hormones. Guess what? Some cis girls and women have high levels of testosterone, so this can end up hurting them too. I know, right, who would have thought that people have different physiologies? I know it was a case in some high level competition in some African country, sorry for not remembering more clearly, and I swear I've also read it happening in some US school. Remember, the intention that has been stated for these actions is protecting cis women and girls. Also, it seems that such checks could potentially hurt women and girls of color disproportionately. 

All of this seems a bit weird to me, maybe because I've never cared for sports. I would assume that people care about the sport itself, because if it's only about the competition and winning, I can only see it as stressful activity that fails it's purpose of doing something for your health. And it's never going to be fair, because people have different bodies and different natural abilities. Again, using the same logic could potentially lead to cis black people being banned as well, since they ofthen have physical advantages. (Yes, I know it's usually the other side that likes to go to the extreme in their imagined "Where this can lead to...", but is it such a stretch?)

This is an excellent point as well. And yeah, I'm not a sports person, either, but I mean, hell, I've seen people shrug off the fact that athletes use steroids, and getting mad when their records are stripped or they have an asterisk next to them because of their steroid use, because "Who cares, they won games, they should be honored for that!" and everything. So you're willing to overlook that, but transgender kids playing sports is what creates an "unfair advantage"? Okay. 

But yeah, no matter the sport, you'll always have people who are naturally just exceptionally good at it, for one reason or another. They shouldn't be punished because some people can't deal with their own insecurities about their abilities or whatever. 

Quote

And speaking of bathrooms, people who use wheelchair have had to use one for both genders all the time, if they can manage, why couldn't others? When I was in UK, there were even some cafes that had only one bathroom, with one stall for everyone, men, women, and equiped for people in wheelchair. Probably a necessity because of space, but since tourists ofthen use them, not very practical. But the problem was not unisex bathroom, just the size.

The bathroom debate is so mind-numbingly stupid I don't even know where to begin. When I'm in a public restroom, I'm in there to do my usual business. I'm sitting in a stall. I could not care less about who's on either side of me. I am not thinking about who's on either side of me - even if someone I know is in the restroom as well, I'm still not thinking about them in that moment. Because that's weird. And if I ever were, by some twist of fate, attacked in a bathroom, I mean, yeah, it'd be horrific, but my anger and fear would be directed towards the person who attacked me, regardless of who that was. It wouldn't be proof that transgender people in general shouldn't be allowed in there. I mean, hell, I'd say it's a safe bet there's far more stories of cis women getting into physical fights in the bathroom than there are transgender people attacking somebody, so hey, maybe everyone should just have their own private bathrooms and be done with it. I mean, we're already going all out with the unrealistic solutions to nonexistent problems as it is, so... 

There's also the fact that I wonder how the anti-transgender crowd would really react if transgender people did use the "right" bathrooms, like they keep insisting they should. You're telling me no guys would feel at all uncomfortable with, say, Caitlyn Jenner sharing a bathroom with them? Or no women would raise a fuss about Chaz Bono sharing a bathroom with them? They'd be totally fine with that, and there'd be no harassment of people like Jenner or Bono whatsoever there, too? Okay, sure, yeah, I totally believe that. 

I also hate the debate because it always involves these guys talking about how they're so concerned about the "safety" of women like me in a public bathroom, like we're such fragile little creatures who must be protected at all costs and can't possibly be capable of taking care of and looking out for ourselves. I can handle myself just fine, guys, you can spare me your sudden concern for my well-being. 

[JustHereForFood]

24 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

I also hate the debate because it always involves these guys talking about how they're so concerned about the "safety" of women like me in a public bathroom, like we're such fragile little creatures who must be protected at all costs and can't possibly be capable of taking care of and looking out for ourselves. I can handle myself just fine, guys, you can spare me your sudden concern for my well-being. 

Maybe this wouldn't bother me, if those same people cared as much when the topic of sexual harassment comes up under different circumstances. Yet, they are usually those who dismiss our concerns, saying that we are now oversensitive and consider everything sexual harassment now, that they don't believe women who talk about their rape after XY time has passed, or unless there's XY accusers for the same person. It's telling that some people only seem to care about it if it fits their agenda. It was the same during refugee crisis, some people (mostly men) kept feermongering how immigrants will come to rape every woman. I was like, not only is this bullshit, but why do you now care about my safety, weren't you talking just a year ago about how it's usually the woman's own fault if she's raped? There are sadly far too many cases of rape and other sexual harassment all around the world, and there are people who document them and make statistics about them. If there was a sudden spike in rapes in public bathrooms, I think we would know about it.

[purist]

Will you marry me, @JustHereForFood and @Annber03? Your posts are giving me life!

[Lantern7]

Man, the show takes breaks at the least opportune times. Right, Esteban?

". . . true story."

Great that the far right never seems to run out of targets. Even if the thought people transitioning makes you genuinely queasy and nauseous . . . are they hurting you? All I see are guys that don't know who pronouns are and only catch the episodes of It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia with Dennis's crazy ex that transitions into becoming a cat. And John is right about how ridiculous kids shitting in a litter box at school sounds, and that the public would've heard about it before it became politicized.

At least we got to see some happy kids, even as their paths get harder to walk and more up than down. Then again, they probably never have to watch a romcom which is state propaganda. Of course John would fall into that hole . . . as well as get into goblin sharks.

[angora]

14 hours ago, Annber03 said:

There's also the fact that I wonder how the anti-transgender crowd would really react if transgender people did use the "right" bathrooms, like they keep insisting they should. You're telling me no guys would feel at all uncomfortable with, say, Caitlyn Jenner sharing a bathroom with them? Or no women would raise a fuss about Chaz Bono sharing a bathroom with them? They'd be totally fine with that, and there'd be no harassment of people like Jenner or Bono whatsoever there, too? Okay, sure, yeah, I totally believe that. 

So many anti-trans bills seem entirely unaware that trans masculine people even exist--they ignore the fact that their bills to "protect girls/women" would actually PUT boys/men in girls'/womens' bathrooms, locker rooms, sports teams, etc.

This is what Laverne Cox has said about bathroom bills:

Quote

“What people should know about these bathroom bills that criminalize trans people... is that these bills are not about bathrooms. They’re about whether trans people have the right to exist in public space. If we can’t access public bathrooms, we can’t go to school, we can’t work, we can’t go to healthcare facilities—this is about public accommodations and public accommodations are always the key to civil rights.”

Bless John for coming in so hard in defense of these kids who are just trying to live their lives and be kids. He's right: none of them should HAVE to be activists, and more needs to be done to protect them from ignorant, hysterical adults trying to legislate their lives based on fearmongering.

[JustHereForFood]

13 hours ago, purist said:

Will you marry me, @JustHereForFood and @Annber03? Your posts are giving me life!

Next topic to destigmatize: polyamory 😏.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, JustHereForFood said:

Next topic to destigmatize: polyamory 😏.

I heard Utah is very broad-minded about this... 

[Lugal]

My mom has that one friend who always sends far right anti-trans emails.  Once I looked it up and saw that in something like in the last 10 years, there's been 16 high school trans athletes in the whole state (Arizona). 

18 hours ago, Annber03 said:

This! It's like the people who thought that the rise in people mentioning they were gay was clearly the result of "media influence" or "a trend" or whatever. No, it's because as time went on, they got tired of hiding themselves, rightly so, and they felt more comfortable opening up about who they were as society became more accepting. Or they wanted to be an inspiration to other LGBTQA+ people who were still closeted, to reassure them and give them hope should the day ever come when they decided to come out. 

20 years ago there was a documentary, Outfoxed: Murdoch's War on Journalism.  It mentioned how when they would scaremonger about gays they would show footage of the leather men in the Castro district, but then when the first gay marriages were legal, people started seeing footage of normal everyday people getting married, the fear went down (and then they shifted to fearmongering about illegal immigration).

There is the unspoken image that many people have of "transgender" as a masculine man wearing a dress.  You can tell by the way they structure the bathroom arguments.  But as more trans actresses get bigger roles: Nicole Maines, Laverne Cox, and Cassandra James just off the top of my head, who look like any other woman you'd pass on the street (and not even getting into transmen) that mental image will change.

On 10/22/2022 at 7:24 AM, JustHereForFood said:

And the spike in numbers of teenagers identifying as trans or non-binary... I don't know, could it possibly be related to the fact that people are now talking about it more, so they have the language to name what they feel and how they identify? Or that we just talk more about identity, are more open in the age of social media and tend to share more (sometimes overshare) online? Or that trans people now perhaps feel more safe to be open about their identities

And if we just set all that aside for the moment and say maybe it is a teenage trend, it's not as if they're a demographic in the transition from childhood to adulthood exploring their identities and trying to figure out who they are, right?  So some boys start wearing makeup and some girls stop and use different pronouns.  Beyond a few minor annoyances, how will that really effect my life?  Maybe they'll discover they are non-binary or even transgender.  Maybe they'll discover they were cis boys and girls all along.  Either way they'll know a little more about themselves and won't we all be better off for that?

13 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Then again, they probably never have to watch a romcom which is state propaganda.

Of course not, in America, action movies are our state propaganda.

[Annber03]

2 hours ago, Lugal said:

20 years ago there was a documentary, Outfoxed: Murdoch's War on Journalism.  It mentioned how when they would scaremonger about gays they would show footage of the leather men in the Castro district, but then when the first gay marriages were legal, people started seeing footage of normal everyday people getting married, the fear went down (and then they shifted to fearmongering about illegal immigration).

There is the unspoken image that many people have of "transgender" as a masculine man wearing a dress.  You can tell by the way they structure the bathroom arguments. 

That reminds me that I saw a tweet a while back that made a really good point - the person said something to the effect of, "It's funny how, for some people, being a biological male is set in stone and can't or shouldn't be altered in any way...but if you don't conform to their idea of what a 'real man' is like, apparently you don't get to call yourself or be viewed as a man anymore." 

But yeah, that's precisely what it comes down to at the end of the day, isn't it? A bunch of people who are very insecure and fragile in regards to their own ideas of how men and women "should" look and "should" act getting threatened by anything that goes outside those super narrow definitions. You'd think they'd learn that this is going to be a losing battle for them in the end, too, for all the reasons you note, but apparently not. 

[JustHereForFood]

So, regarding the story that those lawmakers said about some schools providing litterboxes to students who identify as pets, it seems to be a whole thing, when you google it, there are several articles debunking the story, even a wikipedia page. What is interesting, is that it seems to have originated from a real situation, when some school provided teachers with supplies to use in case of a lockdown due to shooter in school and they included a litterbox for cats - in case they end up locked in a classroom for hours and need to go to bathroom. Very sad perspective. Maybe, I don't know, concentrate on why would they need to think about being potentially locked down for hours in a classroom?

[cuppasun]

On 10/23/2022 at 9:15 AM, JustHereForFood said:

Next topic to destigmatize: polyamory 😏.

Yes yes yes!! Even when tv/movies make an (apparently) earnest effort to give a positive depiction of polyam/ethical non-monogamy*, it's almost always pretty cringeworthy to anyone very familiar with virtually any variety of it. They always seem to draw from decades old concepts and "poly 101" lists that weren't very accurate back then and were heavily weighted by the need to emphasize "it's okay, we're not freaks or <drops voice> swingers..." to the general public.**

*Polyamory is only one form of ethical non-monogamy but has kind of become its face (which is fine, I get why). Still, a really good exploration would include clarifying things like this, looking at the different ways folks do ENM and how wonderfully adaptable and individual it all is. And that it's not the religious polygamy/polygyny that is so often the only depiction of multi-person relationships. I'm a Relationship Anarchist, for example, and non-monogamous (though not all RA folk are), but I tend to use "polyam" for the 97.3% of people who have no idea what that means! : D

**nothing wrong with swingers, and plenty of them intersect with polyam; it's just one of the more highly stigmatized and stereotyped relationship styles out there.

[lasu]

On 10/22/2022 at 7:03 PM, Annber03 said:

I also hate the debate because it always involves these guys talking about how they're so concerned about the "safety" of women like me in a public bathroom, like we're such fragile little creatures who must be protected at all costs and can't possibly be capable of taking care of and looking out for ourselves. I can handle myself just fine, guys, you can spare me your sudden concern for my well-being. 

I'm in NC, home of the Original Bathroom Bill, and this is what I posted on facebook at the time:

Quote

As a woman, I know the fear of rape.

Every other woman reading this does too. We have all known since we were old enough to understand, and really, even before understanding, we already knew there was something to fear. For most of us, this doesn’t really affect our day-to-day lives; it’s just a fact of our day-to-day lives. Statistics have taught us, if we haven’t already been assaulted in some degree, we probably will be. We make choices to help keep ourselves safer, and hope for the best.

Let me ask every woman reading this: would you feel safe stopping alone at an unpopulated rest stop late at night? No? Me neither. Now, let me ask you another question: after North Carolina passed HB2, do you feel safer stopping alone at an unpopulated rest stop late at night? No? Me neither.

Why is that? Why is it that a law passed ostensibly for MY protection doesn’t actually make me safer? Because the threat was never from transgender people. The threat was never that men would suddenly don wigs and start sacking women’s restrooms like conquering Vikings. The threat comes not from transgender people but from MEN WHO RAPE. I cannot be clear enough about that.

To my knowledge, there has never been a single case of a transgender person assaulting someone in a public restroom. I know and love people of the transgender community. I look at my transgender sister and I see a woman. She is a woman. I do not know the state of her genitals, just as I do not the state of ANY of my friends’ genitals, despite the fact we often go to the same bathroom together. My sister’s fears as a woman are the same as mine when it comes to safety in a bathroom, and her fears as a transgender woman are only increased. Her fears are just as real, valid, and legitimate as my own. And still, NC wants to make my sister use the men’s bathroom to make ME safer? We are going to put her in real, actual danger to eliminate this non-existent threat of men in wigs? I reject this. Not only does sending my sister into the men’s room NOT make me safer, I would never accept an increased safety for myself at the expense of another woman. Never.

So you know what? Stop saying you did this for me. I reject this. You are pretending to have saved me from a threat you made up in the first place, and I reject this. When you want to start passing laws that sincerely make me or any of my NC neighbors safer, let’s talk. You want to process the backlog of rape kits? I’m good with that. You want to teach men and boys to seek enthusiastic consent for sex? Save me a seat at the table. You want to increase dialogue on how we need to stop victim-blaming? Sign me up. You want to enact laws that will actually make me safer? Yes, please and a second serving. You want to save me from an imaginary boogeyman wearing a wig? I reject this. When you are ready to do something that will make it safe for me to stop alone at an unpopulated rest stop late at night, I am ready to talk and I am ready to work with you. But until then? I reject this.

[andromeda331]

Well said!

[Annber03]

That's for you, @lasu :). 

[marina to]

On 10/27/2022 at 6:36 AM, cuppasun said:

Yes yes yes!! Even when tv/movies make an (apparently) earnest effort to give a positive depiction of polyam/ethical non-monogamy*, it's almost always pretty cringeworthy to anyone very familiar with virtually any variety of it. They always seem to draw from decades old concepts and "poly 101" lists that weren't very accurate back then and were heavily weighted by the need to emphasize "it's okay, we're not freaks or <drops voice> swingers..." to the general public.**

*Polyamory is only one form of ethical non-monogamy but has kind of become its face (which is fine, I get why). Still, a really good exploration would include clarifying things like this, looking at the different ways folks do ENM and how wonderfully adaptable and individual it all is. And that it's not the religious polygamy/polygyny that is so often the only depiction of multi-person relationships. I'm a Relationship Anarchist, for example, and non-monogamous (though not all RA folk are), but I tend to use "polyam" for the 97.3% of people who have no idea what that means! : D

**nothing wrong with swingers, and plenty of them intersect with polyam; it's just one of the more highly stigmatized and stereotyped relationship styles out there.

Solo Poly here. Wouldn't it be great to see this? Then maybe we won't keep hearing jokes like this:

On 10/23/2022 at 1:27 PM, paigow said:

I heard Utah is very broad-minded about this... 

Polygyny is not polyamory and I'm so tired of it being equated. Their practices are not ethical. John, how about getting on this?

[lasu]

And then you have someone like me who is ENM but not poly.  I'm single at the moment so it's not relevant, but still, it's another layer to try to explain to people.

[EtheltoTillie]

On 10/28/2022 at 2:02 PM, lasu said:

I'm in NC, home of the Original Bathroom Bill, and this is what I posted on facebook at the time:

I'm just catching up on this thread months later, but this is something that tracks with my feelings.  Can we just have individual bathrooms if we can't deal with this?  I went to a trendy restaurant in NYC at the Museum of Modern Art.  I'm a middle aged cis woman. The restaurant thought it was edgy to have a single sex bathroom area.  You had your own stall in a row of stalls, and the doors reached the floor.  But then you had to come out and us a gang sink area.  The room was filled with a bunch of cis men in suits.  I was exceedingly uncomfortable.  I don't want to do my business among that crowd!

Edited April 23, 2023 by EtheltoTillie