S06.E13: Saul Gone

[Lalo Lives]

5 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

To me, the key difference is that spitballing about murder about people he's never met and doesn't know -- or people who are, as in Jesse's case in S5, really dangerous to him -- is that there's no way he'd actually be pulling the trigger himself.  In 612, he was put in the position where he would have to do the deed himself.  It's like, you might buy a burger but would you butcher a cow?

So, so true. If somebody goes hunting they are a “savage”—-so says the goodie two shoes eating the filet mignon and wearing the Gucci crocodile pumps.

[Lalo Lives]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

My husband just started the first season this weekend, he wanted to wait until the show ended so he could binge the whole thing. He’s convinced that Jimmy will make his full transformation to Saul by the end of the first season. Bless his heart…

Lots of people on this forum thought the same thing.

[BC4ME]

3 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I also posted earlier that I doubt the inmates would be running the kitchen freely, there is too much prospect for mayhem to break out. No smoking, either. Lots of dramatic license here.

No comment on the point about the kitchen but Kim looked out of the room they were in to see if anyone was looking before she lit up the cigarette. I'm pretty sure it wasn't allowed.

[PeterPirate]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Bless his heart…

I hear Inigo Montoya saying "I do not think that means what you think it means".  I look forward to hearing Mr. Tennisgurl's reactions as time goes by.  

No way would Kim's purse not been searched and her cigs and lighter confiscated in real life.  I can see why they used the name of a real facility (FCI Butner), but then a fake name for the supermax.  

[SoMuchTV]

5 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Bless his heart…

I hear Inigo Montoya saying "I do not think that means what you think it means". 

Funny, I thought that was supposed to mean exactly what she thought it means. Maybe you’re not from the US south. 

[Irlandesa]

39 minutes ago, Lalo Lives said:

Lots of people on this forum thought the same thing.

The creators thought that's what was going to happen too.  And yet that's not what happened.

[Lalo Lives]

2 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

The creators thought that's what was going to happen too.  And yet that's not what happened.

That's interesting. I did not know that.

[Milburn Stone]

14 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

I rather suspect that good chunks of what ultimately got used in S5 were being discussed for S1.

This makes sense, when you consider they had no way to know for sure that they were ever going to get a season 2. 

Even if they intended from the start to make Jimmy's descent a slow one, they probably had to present AMC a one-season closure plan in order to get greenlit. And now, understandably, Gilligan is loath to say to a reporter "Yeah, we knew we were never actually going to do that," out of concern for being perceived by networks going forward as willing to negotiate in bad faith.

(Of course my conjecture goes out the window if they had a multi-season guarantee to begin with.)

[Sailorgirl26]

13 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

The creators thought that's what was going to happen too.  And yet that's not what happened.

I just did a rewatch and still thought after every step, okay, this is what pushes him into full-on Saul. Even though I know the final breaking point. That's how good this show is. 

[gallimaufry]

3 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

This makes sense, when you consider they had no way to know for sure that they were ever going to get a season 2. 

Even if they intended from the start to make Jimmy's descent a slow one, they probably had to present AMC a one-season closure plan in order to get greenlit. And now, understandably, Gilligan is loath to say to a reporter "Yeah, we knew we were never actually going to do that," out of concern for being perceived by networks going forward as willing to negotiate in bad faith.

(Of course my conjecture goes out the window if they had a multi-season guarantee to begin with.)

Although by the time S1 ratings would have come back, it would have been too late to change course on S1.

[gallimaufry]

One link that occurred to me today.

We associate mint chocolate chip ice cream (representing the cream of illicit activities) with ants (representing death) because of the 603 scene.  What stops Jimmy here is that he tries to wind back the clock - to parlay Howard's death into ice cream.  But that, as Walt would say, is not possible.

[BC4ME]

I didn't post this in media because it is directly related to Jimmy's behavior from a clinical standpoint for those interested. This guy really has a deadpan delivery that kind of grows on you. He has over a million subscribers so I don't think I'm alone in thinking that. He's a psychologist who speaks on the behavior of all sorts of people, fictional, criminal, politicians (although he is very apolitical in his assessments), etc. He does a thorough background analysis that I also enjoy. This was made a few episodes into season five. I hope he does another updated one since the finale has aired and the character's journey is over.

[Sailorgirl26]

43 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

One link that occurred to me today.

We associate mint chocolate chip ice cream (representing the cream of illicit activities) with ants (representing death) because of the 603 scene.  What stops Jimmy here is that he tries to wind back the clock - to parlay Howard's death into ice cream.  But that, as Walt would say, is not possible.

I would have never realized this without doing the rewatch -- season 5, when Kim and Jimmy are at the hotel after Lalo's first visit to their condo to find out what happened in the desert -- they order the ice cream bar from room service.

Kim is prepping Jimmy's bowl while he's in the bathroom and he tells her, "leave off the mint chip." We see her flick the scoop of mint chip ice cream out of his bowl. 

I know we say this all the time about the G&G writers, but damn. The attention to continuity detail is off. the. charts. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Sailorgirl26

[Lalo Lives]

17 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

Funny, I thought that was supposed to mean exactly what she thought it means. Maybe you’re not from the US south. 

Ahh, yes. "Bless his heart" can mean so much more down heeya.

[Lalo Lives]

Talking about JSG and his 86 years:

The term "86'd", or "he got 86'd".

I wonder if that was intentional?

--------------------

Also, thought experiment for us:

Ask yourself if 86 years is the right punishment for his deeds? Come up with a clear answer. One you can defend.

(Extra credit- do you kind if hope he gets out early or on a technicality,  etc.?)

Now, ask yourself this: what if JSG had clonked the 'cancer guy' over the head and/or strangled Marion?

Would your answers change?

[SimplexFish]

17 minutes ago, Lalo Lives said:

--------------------

Also, thought experiment for us:

Ask yourself if 86 years is the right punishment for his deeds? Come up with a clear answer. One you can defend.

(Extra credit- do you kind if hope he gets out early or on a technicality,  etc.?)

Now, ask yourself this: what if JSG had clonked the 'cancer guy' over the head and/or strangled Marion?

Would your answers change?

Well if he would have broken open the doggos urn he would have deserved the death penalty...IMO

[PeterPirate]

3 hours ago, Sailorgirl26 said:

I would have never realized this without doing the rewatch -- season 5, when Kim and Jimmy are at the hotel after Lalo's first visit to their condo to find out what happened in the desert -- they order the ice cream bar from room service.

Kim is prepping Jimmy's bowl while he's in the bathroom and he tells her, "leave off the mint chip." We see her flick the scoop of mint chip ice cream out of his bowl. 

I know we say this all the time about the G&G writers, but damn. The attention to continuity detail is off. the. charts. 

I don't understand why Jimmy went from not wanting mint chocolate chip to wanting mint chocolate chip.  

For that matter, I don't understand why he would try to trade knowledge of Howard's murder for ice cream.  Since the murder was committed by a person he helped to escape custody, he's opening himself up to state charges once he gets out of federal custody.  

[Sailorgirl26]

2 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I don't understand why Jimmy went from not wanting mint chocolate chip to wanting mint chocolate chip.  

For that matter, I don't understand why he would try to trade knowledge of Howard's murder for ice cream.  Since the murder was committed by a person he helped to escape custody, he's opening himself up to state charges once he gets out of federal custody.  

Because it wasn't Jimmy negotiating for the mint chip ice cream. It was screw-the-world, nothing-bothers-me, selfish Saul. The ice cream negotiation was before he flipped his humanity switch back on. 

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, Sailorgirl26 said:

Because it wasn't Jimmy negotiating for the mint chip ice cream. It was screw-the-world, nothing-bothers-me, selfish Saul. The ice cream negotiation was before he flipped his humanity switch back on. 

I suppose.  I still think the ice cream thing is pretty gimmicky.  And reckless, too.  

[jww]

Rotting in a super-max prison for the rest of his life proves his humanity how-does Jimmy believe he deserves the  punishment?  It is like a 10 year old boy telling his father he needs a 3x paddling.

The Shield had a better ending-Vic got a total amnesty deal for all crimes he had committed as long as he confessed to them.  Once  the deal was signed he detailed all the murders/drug deals he committed much to the dismay of the DA who had no idea of just how evil he was. Vic round up assigned to a police desk job  which he hated but at least it was not Pelican Bay prison.

[Lalo Lives]

5 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I don't understand why Jimmy went from not wanting mint chocolate chip to wanting mint chocolate chip.  

For that matter, I don't understand why he would try to trade knowledge of Howard's murder for ice cream.  Since the murder was committed by a person he helped to escape custody, he's opening himself up to state charges once he gets out of federal custody.  

Maybe mint chip is special for him and can only be truly enjoyed when he is in a proper mindset.

I’m guessing he’d been on such a roll as far as the 18, 19? stipulations (probably wrong term) related to his plea deal, he felt he could make them fall at his feet by giving info on Howard.

AND it just occurred to me, didn't he have to dump his mint chip cone before he first met Lalo?

So maybe some bad association thing going on.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Lalo Lives
Fain brog

[PeterPirate]

25 minutes ago, Lalo Lives said:

Maybe mint chip is special for him and can only be truly enjoyed when he is in a proper mindset.

I’m guessing he’d been on such a roll as far as the 18, 19? stipulations (probably wrong term) related to his plea deal, he felt he could make them fall at his feet by giving info on Howard.

AND it just occurred to me, didn't he have to dump his mint chip cone before he first met Lalo?

So maybe some bad association thing going on.

I'm going to go with Occam's Razor and say it's his favorite flavor.  It's the one he was eating when Nacho kidnapped him at the end of 502.  And he turned it down in 510 because he was in shock. 

[Lalo Lives]

On 8/21/2022 at 5:25 AM, PeterPirate said:

Courtney's review of the episode.  

Even after six days she made observations that were new to me.  

Started this. Then fell asleep. (Rough day at the grindstone.)

Courtney puts her heart and soul into her work. So I'll go back to rewatch this analysis. She let us get a glimpse of her home security footage.

No way am I doing that. A-viewers would be aghast at my appearance. B-none of my "security systems" have opposable thumbs. And C-well, as part of my probationary agreement....

[Lalo Lives]

6 hours ago, SimplexFish said:

Well if he would have broken open the doggos urn he would have deserved the death penalty...IMO

Yes, some things are sacred. Mess with my beasts and you better get used to walking with a limp.

[EdwinSorrow]

I would like to recommend everyone this fascinating Twitter thread by one of my favourite writers on the finale - absolutely the best analysis of the show I've ever read. As someone who loved the finale, this thread captures what worked about it far better than I ever could, and puts into words why Jimmy's confession moved me so much. For those who hated the finale, well, hopefully this at least gets you to understand the other side a bit more. 

[sistermagpie]

45 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I'm going to go with Occam's Razor and say it's his favorite flavor.  It's the one he was eating when Nacho kidnapped him at the end of 502.  And he turned it down in 510 because he was in shock. 

Makes me think of scenes where kids can never eat their favorite food again because that's what Mom and Dad fed them when they told them they were getting divorced. Jimmy didn't want to associate mint chip with a bad feeling. I can only hope I'd be thinking so clearly in that situation!

[Lalo Lives]

6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Makes me think of scenes where kids can never eat their favorite food again because that's what Mom and Dad fed them when they told them they were getting divorced. Jimmy didn't want to associate mint chip with a bad feeling. I can only hope I'd be thinking so clearly in that situation!

That's brutal, but probably common.

If 'New Kid in Town' (Eagles) pops up on the radio I quickly punch the dial because every time I hear it something bad happens. Every time.

I'll probably be hit by a meteor tonight just for mentioning it.

Stupid song.

[PeterPirate]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

2 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I'm going to go with Occam's Razor and say it's his favorite flavor.  It's the one he was eating when Nacho kidnapped him at the end of 502.  And he turned it down in 510 because he was in shock. 

Makes me think of scenes where kids can never eat their favorite food again because that's what Mom and Dad fed them when they told them they were getting divorced. Jimmy didn't want to associate mint chip with a bad feeling. I can only hope I'd be thinking so clearly in that situation!

I've clarified my thinking a bit.  Jimmy turned down the mint chocolate chip in 510 because he associated it with Lalo.  But with Lalo dead he could enjoy it again.  As if Mom and Dad reconciled.  

[ShadowFacts]

17 hours ago, Lalo Lives said:

Talking about JSG and his 86 years:

The term "86'd", or "he got 86'd".

I wonder if that was intentional?

--------------------

Also, thought experiment for us:

Ask yourself if 86 years is the right punishment for his deeds? Come up with a clear answer. One you can defend.

(Extra credit- do you kind if hope he gets out early or on a technicality,  etc.?)

Now, ask yourself this: what if JSG had clonked the 'cancer guy' over the head and/or strangled Marion?

Would your answers change?

I can't recall what was all in the plea, but if only white collar type offenses, then that's an excessive sentence, if only because sentence lengths in multiple counts are very often set to run concurrently. On that basis I would be OK with an earlier release.

However, since I saw him drug people which can lead to tragic consequences, and know he learned nothing from Howard's death in that regard, he needs to be locked up for significant years. What he nearly did to last scam victim and Marion, has shown that innocent people are at risk from him, his acceptance of responsibility for his pre-Omaha behavior in his courtroom oration notwithstanding. He's not convicted of any of that but being locked up for other offenses ends up serving several purposes.

[Starchild]

13 hours ago, jww said:

The Shield had a better ending-Vic got a total amnesty deal for all crimes he had committed as long as he confessed to them.  Once  the deal was signed he detailed all the murders/drug deals he committed much to the dismay of the DA who had no idea of just how evil he was. Vic round up assigned to a police desk job  which he hated but at least it was not Pelican Bay prison.

Oh damn, with so much quality television, I hadn't got around to watching that yet.

8 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I've clarified my thinking a bit.  Jimmy turned down the mint chocolate chip in 510 because he associated it with Lalo.  But with Lalo dead he could enjoy it again.  As if Mom and Dad reconciled.  

This article posits that the ice cream represents "the game." With an interesting interpretation of 510.

https://screenrant.com/better-call-saul-mint-chocolate-chip-ice-cream-meaning/

[PeterPirate]

47 minutes ago, Starchild said:

This article posits that the ice cream represents "the game." With an interesting interpretation of 510.

https://screenrant.com/better-call-saul-mint-chocolate-chip-ice-cream-meaning/

I liked this part of the article:

In the Better Call Saul season 5 finale, as Kim fixes Jimmy an ice cream bowl, he tells her to leave off the mint chip, making Kim scoop it into the bowl herself - foreshadowing Kim's own descent into the criminal underworld.

There's still part of me that wishes Kim had become Darth Wexler and the Gilliverse continued on.  Casablanca was great, but so was The Godfather.

[peeayebee]

5 hours ago, Starchild said:

Oh damn, with so much quality television, I hadn't got around to watching that yet.

The Shield is very very good. I don't think you'll be disappointed.

[SimplexFish]

55 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

The Shield is very very good. I don't think you'll be disappointed.

Love The Shield!  Another show I liked that i haven't heard mentioned here is Nip Tuck...anyone watch that series?

Edited August 23, 2022 by SimplexFish

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, SimplexFish said:

Love The Shield!  Another show I liked that i haven't heard mentioned here is Nip Tuck...anyone watch that series?

I watched that! Crazy stuff. The music Ryan Murphy used was perfect. I do think it should have ended a season or 2 before it did. 

[SimplexFish]

35 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I watched that! Crazy stuff. The music Ryan Murphy used was perfect. I do think it should have ended a season or 2 before it did. 

The Carver!! Yeah I agree that weird love story between Christian and Liz in the 3rd season was just weird...

Edited August 23, 2022 by SimplexFish

[Cinnabon]

Just now, SimplexFish said:

The Carver!! Yeah I agree that weird love story between Christian and Liz season was just weird...

It jumped the shark after they moved from Miami to LA, imo. 

[Starchild]

2 hours ago, peeayebee said:

The Shield is very very good. I don't think you'll be disappointed.

Except now I know how it ends. :(

[SimplexFish]

1 minute ago, Cinnabon said:

It jumped the shark after they moved from Miami to LA, imo. 

Exactly 

[peeayebee]

45 minutes ago, Starchild said:

Except now I know how it ends. :(

Don't let that stop you. Seriously.

[PeterPirate]

On 8/21/2022 at 4:49 AM, Milburn Stone said:

I found the Serbian Girls' reaction to Saul's confession moving, but it was different from mine, and I'm thinking about why. I couldn't get uncomplicatedly emotional about the confession scene because I wasn't sure whether I could trust it to be real. For al these years, Jimmy has not not been running some sort of scam. So I wondered, is this the ultimate scam? What does he have up his sleeve now? I mean, I was dumbstruck, gobsmacked, riveted by the scene, pretty much going OMG the whole time; I just wasn't sure what to make of it. I loved seeing this reaction of two girls who related to it on a more direct level. Thank you.

I also did not get very emotional during my first watch of the episode.  I did a double fist pump when I saw Kim in the prison visitors room, but that's all.  In retrospect I could have paused the stream during commercial breaks to think about what is happening.  Reading the comments here during the live stream was also distracting.  

Courtney said she bawled her eyes out at times, and if other viewers didn't, there was something wrong with them.  To which I posted "It's a guy thing".  

Which leads me to this entertaining (and possibly controversial) reaction video that popped up on my YT feed.  I've skipped a bunch of reaction videos, but this guy's video thumbnail caught my attention.    

Edited August 24, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Simon Boccanegra]

On 8/19/2022 at 6:28 PM, jww said:

Just rewatched episode 1, season  1 and Jimmy is telling the skateboarders he used the money from his slip/fall scams  to pay for bartending school.  So it is reasonable to conclude Jimmy never went to college (other than online law school)  and may at most have a GED.  Jimmy/Saul likely is no more likely able to engage in conversation than Kim's current boyfriend.

In the flashback in which he tells Chuck that he's passed the bar, he says, "I got my last few credits for undergrad from a community college" before finding a law school that would accept him. 

The "last few" part makes me think he went to college at the typical age, but just didn't finish. 

[jww]

3 hours ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

In the flashback in which he tells Chuck that he's passed the bar, he says, "I got my last few credits for undergrad from a community college" before finding a law school that would accept him. 

The "last few" part makes me think he went to college at the typical age, but just didn't finish. 

The problem with that is a community colleges typically only offer lower division courses and an Associate Degree. He would have had to be enrolled in a 4 year college to have received a BS/BA.  Besides he told the skateboarders he used the slip and fall money to go to bartending school.  

[ShadowFacts]

4 hours ago, jww said:

The problem with that is a community colleges typically only offer lower division courses and an Associate Degree. He would have had to be enrolled in a 4 year college to have received a BS/BA.  Besides he told the skateboarders he used the slip and fall money to go to bartending school.  

He's a big prevaricator. He thought that would resonate with the skateboarders.

[Dev F]

44 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

He's a big prevaricator. He thought that would resonate with the skateboarders.

No he tells Walt it was for bartending school in the finale as well.

[Cinnabon]

He must have finished his BA somewhere before starting law school. 🤷‍♀️

[ShadowFacts]

6 minutes ago, Dev F said:

No he tells Walt it was for bartending school in the finale as well.

Ah, so his final Gene scams might have had Jimmy origins. Full circle.

[PeterPirate]

There is at least one law school in California that only requires an Associates degree for admission.

Glendale University College of Law Educational Requirements

Applicants to law school without a Bachelor's Degree can satisfy pre-legal education requirements if they have earned: an academic AA or AS Degree, OR 60 semester/90 quarter units of bachelor degree-applicable coursework, at a regionally accredited college.

It's worth noting that there is no Glendale University. Only this for-profit, non-accredited law school.  Per Wikipedia:

Graduates are qualified to sit the California State Bar, because the school is not accredited by the American Bar Association, they are not generally eligible to take the bar or practice outside of California.

This last part raises the question of whether Jimmy could get his law degree from the University of American Samoa Law School and then take the bar exam in New Mexico.  

[monagatuna]

There's also no law school at University of American Samoa--or there wasn't in the BBverse, at least. So again, suspension of disbelief.

I believe it took him 3 tries to pass the bar. That's not unusual. It took me two tries, and I was prepared for a third due to a computer crashing on my third exam day. Granted, I live in a much harder state to pass than NM, but any bar in any state is hard to pass. 

It's also possible he went to bartending school AND undergrad AND law school. "Bartending school" is by and large a scam. Unless you are planning on becoming a sommelier (more selective than almost any other profession in the world) or vintner, mixing drinks is something that generally values experience over education. And man, is it fun!

[Simon Boccanegra]

1 hour ago, monagatuna said:

I believe it took him 3 tries to pass the bar.

It did. When he got his results the third time, he was so nervous he couldn't even open the envelope himself; he took it to Kim. That was one of my favorite scenes of theirs (in "RICO," I believe). Kim is busy and starts to brush him off, and then she realizes it's that. 

[PeterPirate]

Here is another excellent breakdown of the last four episodes.