S01.E10: A Quality Of Mercy

[starri]

Quote

In the season one finale, just as Captain Pike thinks he’s figured out how to escape his fate, he’s visited by his future self, who shows him the consequences of his actions. (Season finale)

[paigow]

The best dialogue was that lifted directly from TOS!Balance Of Terror 

[cambridgeguy]

Well, all the people who bitch and moan about how they keep ripping off TOS are going to blow a gasket after this one.  "Damn incompetent writers can't even come up with an original story, they had to blatantly copy a classic", and so forth.

And boy, the universe sure is insistent that someone suffers a horrible fate.  At least they gave an explanation for why Pike can't just tell everyone to skip the training exercise.

Plus it really does prove the Spock is THE critical figure in Federation history.  Aside from all of the TOS stuff, he's the one who sets the stage for reunification in TNG and beyond, is the one who minimizes the supernova in Romulus's sun, helps set up the Kelvinverse, AND gives Burnham the name recognition she needs in the future.

Edited July 7, 2022 by cambridgeguy

[LydiaMoon1]

7 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Well, all the people who bitch and moan about how they keep ripping off TOS are going to blow a gasket after this one.  "Damn incompetent writers can't even come up with an original story, they had to blatantly copy a classic", and so forth.

Guilty. I was all prepared to b&m about incompetent writers after watching the previews for this episode. I had already started blasting Bad Robot in my head for their penchant to copy off the pages of better writers and their seeming inability to ever do anything original and different. In the end though, I liked what they did with this episode. It reinforced that you can't change your fate. It reminded us of Kirk's particular gifts as a ship's captain, and it re-emphasized the below:

7 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Spock is THE critical figure in Federation history.  Aside from all of the TOS stuff, he's the one who sets the stage for reunification in TNG and beyond, is the one who minimizes the supernova in Romulus's sun, helps set up the Kelvinverse, AND gives Burnham the name recognition she needs in the future.

This episode linked TOS with the 2009 movie, the TOS movies, TNG, and Discovery. That's no small feat. Plus, this one really drives home why Spock was willing to risk court-martial to save Captain Pike. He knows that he somehow owes him a debt and he truly cares about him.

You know, coming into this show I was skeptical about so many things regarding the future of Trek, but I've gotta say. I have enjoyed season 1 and I'm looking forward to season 2 in a way that I haven't looked forward to a show in a long time. Not to mention it sets up major drama for next season with the cliffhanger regarding Una. Yeah, I've had my nitpicks about the show here and there, but the main thing I'm left with at the end of season1 is that I want more episodes. I mean, TEN episodes? Really? You can't even give me at least twelve????

Looking forward to next season.

Edited July 7, 2022 by LydiaMoon1

[Zaffy]

So what did I just watch? a remake of the Balance of Terror, the most bad casting choice in the history of the universe (yes SNW Kirk...you) and  we got why Pike did not try to change his future  using the "It's a wonderful life" storytelling way. Oh and the finale was borrowed from Lower Decks.
All reused old ideas. All copied from somewhere else. Like a uninspiring patchwork. 
So this is what the writers/showrunners of SNW believe? "lets (slightly) remake everything" cause it is safer this way. Exhausting recycling of everything ST and other sci-fi worthy moments.
And this was an episode that was supposed to be up there with "In the pale moonlight"? hah! hah and hah!
 

[ouinason]

I like this show.  I like this episode.  I like the casting for Kirk.

I am annoyed by the general idea that Pike was ever realistically going to change his future, when the whole thing with seeing it in the first place was that there was no changing it.  That was part of the deal.  I don't get why Chris seems to be blanking on that part of it.

[Colorado David]

well contrary to posts here, i didn't mind the remake. i do have an issue with future pike interacting with current pike - unless it's all in his head, how the heck does this work? crossing time lines is just a mcguffin we can do now?? weak.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, ouinason said:

I like this show.  I like this episode.  I like the casting for Kirk.

I am annoyed by the general idea that Pike was ever realistically going to change his future, when the whole thing with seeing it in the first place was that there was no changing it.  That was part of the deal.  I don't get why Chris seems to be blanking on that part of it.

I don't blame Pike for hoping that he could dodge his fate, or having some level of refusing to accept his fate.

And indeed, this episode establishes that he in fact can change his fate. But that at least in one version the outcome is markedly worse overall -- Chris is alive and well at some period after the incident and indeed after the events of parallel universe Balance of Terror, but millions have died in a new Romulan-Federation war. 

It's easier to accept what is "fate" when you are given a front-row seat to how attempting to change it could make things so much worse. But then it seems like that might just compel someone to solve the problem that just cropped up. Which in this case is seemingly easy: armed with the foreknowledge that the Romulans are going to attack certain outposts on such-and-such a stardate and that treating them with kid gloves results in all-out war, it would be pretty simple to arm those outposts to the teeth, not allow the Romulan ship to escape, urge the Federation to take different diplomatic steps, come up with counters to the cloaking device and energy weapon, etc.

[Catfi9ht]

In the previous episode's topic, I posted that this show willfully refuses to expand the Star Trek universe.

This episode was one giant sign flashing, "We can't change anything or Spock dies!" which can be interpreted as a resignation or a threat. I hope it's the former.

3 hours ago, Zaffy said:

"lets (slightly) remake everything" cause it is safer this way.

I really think that sentence is this show's mission statement. 

ETA: wow. I just realized this episode is the season finale. What an underwhelming end to a season. I was just starting to like this show. Well, this season was okay for me which puts it above Discovery. I liked several of the episodes and the actors really elevate the mediocre writing. This show would have been so much worse without their commitment to the show.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Catfi9ht
I had no idea this was the season finale

[ouinason]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It's easier to accept what is "fate" when you are given a front-row seat to how attempting to change it could make things so much worse. But then it seems like that might just compel someone to solve the problem that just cropped up. Which in this case is seemingly easy: armed with the foreknowledge that the Romulans are going to attack certain outposts on such-and-such a stardate and that treating them with kid gloves results in all-out war, it would be pretty simple to arm those outposts to the teeth, not allow the Romulan ship to escape, urge the Federation to take different diplomatic steps, come up with counters to the cloaking device and energy weapon, etc.

Yeah, except I think that older Pike implied (when he should have just outright said so) that he was himself visited from the future, and he changed something, but it didn't work.  Like it hadn't worked before, and probably there were several iterations of it before this Pike got the "just don't" message.  He also said the monks were 'bout ready to come beat his ass to make him stop.

Frankly I think that the timeline is fixed, and that this visitation is part of that fixedness.  

[LydiaMoon1]

10 hours ago, Zaffy said:

So what did I just watch? a remake of the Balance of Terror, the most bad casting choice in the history of the universe (yes SNW Kirk...you)

I wasn't bowled over by the Kirk casting either, but I didn't flat out hate it. I agree that Paul Wesley lacks a certain screen presence. One thing about Chris Pine's portrayal in the Bad Robots movies, he really nailed Kirk's earnest but unrestrained, frat boy qualities. Wesley needs some swagger lessons (and maybe lift some weights (?)), because I just don't see James Tiberius Kirk yet. Hopefully, we'll see a much improved Kirk next time.

Edited July 8, 2022 by LydiaMoon1
ETA to add the bit about lifting weights. Boy is kinda skinny.

[Stardancer Supreme]

I loved it! It placed the dominoes neatly and I can't wait to see how they fall next season.

Listen, I am as much of a continuity and canon purist as anyone here; I learned to cut that portion of my brain off and to enjoy what I was seeing. 

Consider that SNW is a prequel show to what we already know is going to happen; there won't be any wild diversions on the road to TOS and folks need to stop bitching about how this show chooses to flesh itself out and add diversity to the established story we have already seen.  I'm certainly not going to listen to people who obviously never have seen an episode of Star Trek whine about how "woke" the shows are.  They been 'woke' since the debut episode in 1966! 

I knew this was going to be a hot episode once I saw Admiral Pike.  I was thinking, "Well, let's see what happens if Pike decides to save those children and himself from what was fated to happen..."   SNW Kirk is cool, he can stay. I did like how Pike had to slap him down a few pegs after arguing about how to engage the Romulans.  I had forgotten how Vulcans basically excised the Romulans out of their memories and history. Speck was, "I don't know dem!" when everyone looked him. Ortegas going on about the "pointy-eared elephant in the room" had me chuckling.  Pike had me at telling Ortegas to stand down loudly and forcefully...

8 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Plus it really does prove the Spock is THE critical figure in Federation history.  Aside from all of the TOS stuff, he's the one who sets the stage for reunification in TNG and beyond, is the one who minimizes the supernova in Romulus's sun, helps set up the Kelvinverse, AND gives Burnham the name recognition she needs in the future.

Yep. That's why I never minded all the emphasis placed on Spock in this series. He is a very important piece of the timeline and his actions ripple through every Star Trek show and movie.

I also thought it was cool to see Black Romulans. Despite what the racists try to do, Black people will be in the future. You can't stop us! *stepping off my soapbox*

ETA: I forgot to talk about La'an and her growth, plus that tidbit about Una that played into the end of the episode! She looked healed and relaxed. Obviously, she found that girl's family.  When Uhura noted that the Farragut was "La'an's ship", I assumed she was the captain.  I'm so glad I managed to dodge the spoilers until I was able to watch the show.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Stardancer Supreme

[Llywela]

Well, I know there are complaints about this show going to the TOS well too many times, but honestly...if you are making a show that's a prequel of a classic and a central feature of your show is that your primary hero is facing a horrible future fate that he can't escape, and you want to reinforce how inescapable that fate is by showing how much worse things could be if he did try to escape it...well, taking a well-known episode from that classic show, one whose story fans know well, and using it to show how differently events might play out if a different captain was at the helm, is as good a method as any of achieving your aim!. I am totally on board with that.

Not entirely on board with New Kirk, however, I will admit. I was hoping for the best, but saw none of the charisma that's such a major part of Kirk's character. This guy seemed really...earnest. Which isn't really a quality I associate with Kirk. Ah well. I shall just have to file it away with all other discrepancies, an inevitable feature of recasts. Some are easier to live with than others!

I liked the little differences made to some of the characters to reinforce the idea that they'd lived through another seven years since Pike and we last saw them - Ortegas being that much more abrasive and trigger-happy than we've seen before, La'an being much more open and approachable, going in for the hug, etc.

And then Una's arrest as the cliffhanger brings another minor sub-plot from earlier in the season back to the bubble - I guess challenging her conviction will be a major thread for season two!

[MissLucas]

Oh show, what are you doing? I wrote in the discussion about the pilot that I'm so glad to have a show without time-travelling shenanigans - and now this? Sure, it was well handled and all but I still wish you hadn't gone there because every time characters start to talk about the intricacies of time-travel and 'time is complicated' I'm catching myself doing jazz hands mumbling 'just say timey-wimey and be done with it'.

Also: Pike knows he can't change his fate but is willing to challenge Una's fate? So she's not a fixed point in time? (I'm sorry but Doctor Who is the point of reference for all time-travelling plots).

And more also: Hi Wynonna, I'm sorry I did not recognize you the first time around. And I'm also sorry you got that shitty assignment that might end things between you and Pike.

And even more also: That last scene between Pike and Spock felt like the writers were trying to usurp TOS' place in the history of slash fiction.

Ten episodes are not enough!

[paigow]

3 hours ago, ouinason said:

Frankly I think that the timeline is fixed, and that this visitation is part of that fixedness.  

If Number One goes on trial, TNG!Measure Of A Man will be quoted verbatim...

Too bad Pike does not know about Vulcan Katra... let Spock die and get rebooted...saves both of them

[cambridgeguy]

55 minutes ago, paigow said:

Too bad Pike does not know about Vulcan Katra... let Spock die and get rebooted...saves both of them

Sure, because the only other thing required is a body that's been reborn via the Genesis device or the equivalent.  Piece of cake!

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

Also: Pike knows he can't change his fate but is willing to challenge Una's fate? So she's not a fixed point in time? (I'm sorry but Doctor Who is the point of reference for all time-travelling plots).

Why wouldn't he?  It's not like he saw a shot of her moping in prison when he held the time crystal. 

[rtms77]

Save the Vulcan, Save the Timeline!

I have to say that was a interesting time story, that surprisingly didn’t work out in the end. So many times these time messing stories “just work” and everyone just goes on their way. At least Pike got the chance to see what might happen. 
 

Paul Weasley would be better on a remake of Bewitched, lol. That guy looks like a pencil pushing geek, and is cold as ice. Where is the brashness of young Kirk? The charisma that made women swoon? Sam Kirk totally doesn’t know his brother.  I saw a theory once that Kirk actually got more starfleet but still kept that wander spirit as he moved up and eventually took over the Enterprize. He must be a hot captain to take over the Enterprise , the flag ship in just a few short yrs and so young. This version did not convince me he deserved that flag ship.
 

 Scotty! Or at least his voice. I wonder if they just used an old voice recording for that? 
La ‘an gets to be Kirks chief of security? Second in command? Glad she went back to Starfleet at least.

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

3 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Also: Pike knows he can't change his fate but is willing to challenge Una's fate? So she's not a fixed point in time? (I'm sorry but Doctor Who is the point of reference for all time-travelling plots).

Why wouldn't he?  It's not like he saw a shot of her moping in prison when he held the time crystal. 

But Una isn’t a fixed point, since the timeline was changed slightly thanks to the letter. This time I think he will fight hard to get her back. The alternate timeline seemed to imply he did nothing. 
 

I take it Ensign  Christina is both navigator/ weapons/operations crew? I can’t figure her assignment.

Spock, The Most Interesting Guy in the Universe, I don’t usually save universes but when I do rest assured I won’t let you know! 

[historylover820]

I personally loved this episode. Balance of Terror is my second favorite TOS episode, so this pleased me. And, I personally love exploring alternate timelines, what could have been...

So, I was much happier with this episode than the last two.

As far as James T Kirk goes, yeah, not completely sold on him either. When he first appeared, I thought he looked a little bit like Chris Pine. Am I the only one who thought so? But definitely needed to be more swaggering. JTK is larger than life. This one was.... ordinary.

And I'm OK with Spock being the lynchpin. He kind of always was. 

I know the katra thing is a joke, but, if you remember Star Trek III, the Vulcan priestess says the katra is a myth and asks if Sarek is emotionally compromised. Sarek says when it comes to his son, he's always emotionally compromised. But, if it's a myth, it's not something that's always done. And, yeah, you kind of need the Genesis planet as well.... And Spock would have had to have known he was about ready to die to pass his katra into someone else. I guess Scotty would have done the trick here?

[cdnalor]

Yeah, I'm really not feeling Kirk being played by Jim Carrey Lite, but I loved the recreation of the Romulan reveal from TOS right down to the theme music.  So now Pike knows what the Romulans will look like ahead of everyone else.

I like alternate timeline stories but this didn't feel suitable for a season finale.  I guess this nails down Pike's fate once and for all.  Tough luck, buddy!

Edited July 8, 2022 by cdnalor

[Orbert]

Yes!  When "new Kirk" showed up, my first thought was that he's played by Jim Carrey if Jim Carrey was seriously trying to be Jim Kirk.  Seriously trying, but failing.  Some of the mannerisms were close, a few lines had just a smattering of Kirk's swagger, but overall I wasn't that impressed.

Good episode, though.  Not wild about the premise, but they pulled it off.

[starri]

I admire the brashness of them taking one of the franchise's high water marks and doing an alternate take on it.  I thought on the whole it was pretty successful.

Boy, did Jess Bush make her screen time count.

[Tyro49]

The actor playing Kirk reminded me of Roddy McDowall, a good actor but skinny and no action hero. He did not behave like Kirk at all. I sense a necessary recast here; they made a big error here.

I have really loved this show, but I think that next season they have to have more " original" adventures. These would have been better had they been spaced out more over several seasons.

[ali59]

I have only a very shallow comment.  Why the heck was Uhura the only one wearing that style of top.  It resembled the mini dress neckline from the original series but looked completely out of place because she was the only one wearing it.

[Frozendiva]

I was confused at the ship being a bird of prey. I always got the warbird mixed up between the Klingons and Romulans. If no one had seen the Romulans, how would they know what their ships are called?

The ep just seemed to.... stop. The two hour wait and boom - more ships showed up. Are they real, though. Could not see the Romulan commander wanting to talk peacefully. Why change.

In the alt-timeline, Una is in prison? Was expecting a more clever, cunning, magnetic James T. Kirk. More of a rogue or scoundrel type. Not the accountant type he appeared to be.

Our first voice of Mr. Scott.

Captain Pike cooks a lot. How is his quarters vented? 

[statsgirl]

Hemmer last episode ... Una this one. Are they trying to get me to not come back?

I loved FuturePike in the admiral outfit of Kirk from the movies.

So since Spock is hurt in all the other timelines, the moral of the episode is that the existing timeline is the best it could possibly be? Cool, we can all just give up now.

I didn't understand how saving the cadets directly translated into this timeline. Did I miss a reason? It just suddenly jumped into this future without explanation.

How can the Federation have been in a cold war with the Romulans for 100 years and know nothing at all about them? Who negotiated the Neutral Zone and how?

I thought that they can save a horse with a broken leg right now. Why would they have to put down a pony 200 years in the future? Was this to show that Pike has a tragic backstory too?

I bet Ali Hassan was geeking out being in a Star Trek.

[Maverick]

3 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

How can the Federation have been in a cold war with the Romulans for 100 years and know nothing at all about them? Who negotiated the Neutral Zone and how?

 It was stated in Balance of Terror that the treaty was negotiated over subspace to explain why the reveal was such a surprise in that episode.   When Enterprise introduced the Romulans, they communicate only via audio.  

 Since they like aping the original series so much, they should have cast the same actor for Sam and James Kirk since TOS Sam was just Shatner with a fake mustache.  

[QuantumMechanic]

51 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

How can the Federation have been in a cold war with the Romulans for 100 years and know nothing at all about them? Who negotiated the Neutral Zone and how?

Per TOS:

KIRK [OC]: This is the Captain speaking. In our next action, we can risk neither miscalculation nor error

[Bridge]

KIRK: By any man aboard. Listen carefully. Science Officer.
SPOCK: Referring to the map on your screens, you will note beyond the moving position of our vessel, a line of Earth outpost stations. Constructed on asteroids, they monitor the Neutral Zone established by treaty after the Earth-Romulan conflict a century ago.

[Sickbay]

SPOCK [OC]: As you may recall from your histories, this conflict was fought,

[Engineering]

SPOCK [OC]: By our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels

[Bridge]

SPOCK: Which allowed no quarter, no captives. Nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication. Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other. Earth believes the Romulans to be warlike, cruel, treacherous, and only the Romulans know what they think of Earth. The treaty, set by sub-space radio, established this Neutral Zone, entry into which by either side, would constitute an act of war. The treaty has been unbroken since that time. Captain.

Edited July 8, 2022 by QuantumMechanic

[QuantumMechanic]

52 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I didn't understand how saving the cadets directly translated into this timeline. Did I miss a reason? It just suddenly jumped into this future without explanation.

The cadets not being there on the day of the accident means that Pike didn't need to save them which means Pike was never exposed to the delta radiation and turned into Pike-in-a-Box which means Pike kept Enterprise which means Kirk was boxed out and ended up commanding Farragut which means decades-long war and fried Spock because Pike didn't have Kirk's killer instinct to destroy the Romulan ship before it could escape or call anyone.

[thuganomics85]

Ah, modern Star Trek!  No matter what show it is, they just can't resist that time-travel!

Didn't occur to me that the finale was going to bring back Pike's "destiny" and have him address that again: this time in the form of a future Admiral version of himself from the future that was able to successful alter things to save himself and the cadets, but ended up making things worst for pretty much everyone else.  Complete with Spock basically taking his place instead.  Yeah, I can definitely see that being enough for him to basically doom himself and those other two cadets with that kind of outcome.  The whole "destiny is set no matter" thing has been done to death, but this wasn't too bad.  Especially helped by Anson Mount's performance throughout it all.

So, we finally get this show's version of James T. Kirk, in the form of Paul Wesley.  Like with Chris Pine, part of me just admires him for agreeing to tackle this role, because it's always going to be a battle to compete against William Shatner's iconic take (including the good, the bad, and the incredibly hammy!)  I thought he was okay here, but he didn't quite have the charisma and attitude I think he will need in the long run (ironically, I'm currently watching The Vampire Diaries for the first time ever, and I just keep thinking that if one of the actors playing the Salvatore brothers would ever play Kirk, it would be Ian Somerhalder.)  Still, I'll give him a chance.  I do think part of it was this is a Kirk who apparently will never come aboard the Enterprise, so I can see the "correct" version having a different attitude and way of doing things when it is all said and done.

Heh, Enterprise will also eventually get an engineer who has a very distinctive Scottish accent!  I wonder who could that be?!!

Interesting seeing glimpses of how the rest of the crew changed: like a more confident Uhura, a more open La'an, and a more hostile/trigger-happy Ortega.

Interesting cliffhanger with Una being arrested due to her origins and I'm curious to see how it plays out.  Obviously Pike will be all about helping her, but I can see this also being a way to have La'an come back into the fold with a quickness.  Hopefully.  Sucks about what this means for Pike and his relationship with the other captain though.  No more home cooked meals for her!

All in all, easily the strongest first seasons out of the NuTreks and probably one of my personal favorites out of all the Treks too.  Definitely took advantage of the nostalgia here, but I liked the episodic approach, the more humane and humorous moments compared to the other ones, and they've already done a good job at making me like all of the crew.  The acting was generally strong too: with the likes of Christina Chong and Celia Rose Gooding being highlights.  And, of course, Anson Mount who has helped make this version of Pike get into the top five of my favorite Trek characters of all time and my second favorite Captain ever (behind Picard.)  Glad that casting way back in the season season of Discovery paid off like it did.

Can't wait till season two!

[Guest]

6 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Also: Pike knows he can't change his fate but is willing to challenge Una's fate? So she's not a fixed point in time? (I'm sorry but Doctor Who is the point of reference for all time-travelling plots).

It’s largely irrelevant if it’s a fixed point. The problem with him changing his fate is that he was doing something he wouldn’t have done without knowing what was to come. That would be the same as him choosing not to help Una because of his knowledge of what is to come. 

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I thought that they can save a horse with a broken leg right now. Why would they have to put down a pony 200 years in the future? Was this to show that Pike has a tragic backstory too?

They can save some in the best case scenario but the anatomy of their legs means that a lot of breaks result in the horse being put down. Even 200 years in the future a really bad break would probably still be deadly. 

[Llywela]

3 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Hemmer last episode ... Una this one. Are they trying to get me to not come back?

Hemmer died and I'm with you on being upset about that, I really enjoyed him. Una's arrest, however, is just a cliffhanger to set up a story thread for S2, it doesn't mean she's being written out of the show, just like La'an taking a leave of absence doesn't mean she won't return to Enterprise once she's done what she needs to do. I'm curious to see how they handle Una's fate, mind, because we know from DS9 that the ban on genetic alteration remains in place long after this.

[cambridgeguy]

6 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

And, of course, Anson Mount who has helped make this version of Pike get into the top five of my favorite Trek characters of all time and my second favorite Captain ever (behind Picard.)  Glad that casting way back in the season season of Discovery paid off like it did.

Kind of ironic that Pike did exactly what Picard would have done and it backfired so spectacularly here.  In the TNG era the Federation was more than happy to turn the other cheek at various Romulan actions (brainwashing Geordi, sending an army to Vulcan, planting a spy, etc.) and not have to worry about looking weak enough to conquer.

[marinw]

43 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Kind of ironic that Pike did exactly what Picard would have done and it backfired so spectacularly here.

ITA. I keep thinking that Pike's command style is more Picard than Kirk. Picard will always be my favourite captian. 

I'm not onboard with this Kirk either. Chris Pine was so much better.

That was a good James Doohan sound-alike when poor Spock was talking to Scotty in the Jeffrey's tube.

Spock also died in the Prime timeline, but he got better. Did the Klingon Time Monks not see that?

The actress playng the Romulan Preator looked very familair even with all that makeup and prosthetics.

Edited July 8, 2022 by marinw

[Tyro49]

8 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

The cadets not being there on the day of the accident means that Pike didn't need to save them which means Pike was never exposed to the delta radiation and turned into Pike-in-a-Box which means Pike kept Enterprise which means Kirk was boxed out and ended up commanding Farragut which means decades-long war and fried Spock because Pike didn't have Kirk's killer instinct to destroy the Romulan ship before it could escape or call anyone.

But in the original timeliness Pike had moved on and handed the Enterprise over to Kirk some years before his accident. Obviously that didn't happen in this timeline.

[sugarbaker design]

35 minutes ago, marinw said:

I'm not onboard with this Kirk either.

In the scenes with Kirk and Pike, Kirk looked like a gangly teenager with a head too big for his body.

[Tyro49]

 Whoever has not seen TOS Balance of Terror should, to get the full meaning of this episode.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Tyro49

[Affogato]

You know why I think Spock and Kirk were friends? I think they were a lot alike. Kirk is someone who makes logical intellectual and strategic decisions and passes them off as impulsive and emotional. Spock is someone who makes emotional decisions and justifies them with logic and intellectual superiority. Both of them are hella bright and intellectually organized. Now this prequel Spock is showing more emotion, he seems to make a decision to tamp down on that at some point and I'm not surprised that Kirk would show more of his academic, less swaggering side--especially as Kirk isn't the alpha captain in this scenario.

I can see the acting and directing choices for the character.

It did occur to me that Ian Somerhalder would have been a better choice, but really probably not an excellent choice, and that Wesley had a lot of charisma in Fallen, Vampire diaries. So shrug, I guess. The casting in the Abrams movies was spot on, I thought particularly Karl Urban, but Quinto and Pine were also fantastic, yet I never have had any interest in rewatching them. Casting isn't everything.

I like that the battle goes wrong because Pike is there and because he makes a mature Federation attempt to reason it out with the Romulans. Younger and also more logical Kirk makes the sensible decision to blow them up, but is overruled.

So did future Pike go through the scenarios where he sends Spock to sensitivity training before the encounter with the Romulans? I mean, so he simply isn't on board when it happens for some reason. Or the one where he simply retires to his ranch and lets Kirk run the enterprise?

Edited July 8, 2022 by Affogato

[Affogato]

15 minutes ago, Tyro49 said:

But in the original timeliness Pike had moved on and handed the Enterprise over to Kirk some years before his accident. Obviously that didn't happen in this timeline.

That puzzled me, too.

[LydiaMoon1]

10 hours ago, rtms77 said:

Paul Weasley would be better on a remake of Bewitched, lol. That guy looks like a pencil pushing geek, and is cold as ice. Where is the brashness of young Kirk? The charisma that made women swoon?

OMG. He does remind me of Darrin Stevens (the 2nd one especially).......and that's not good.

Upon rewatch, my two favorite scenes from the episode are both obscure, throwaway scenes, but both made me laugh:

1. When Chris first told Spock about the time travel and Spock countered that it was more likely that Chris had simply gone crazy. *chuckles* That was sooooo Spock.
2. When Chris offered peace and friendship to the Romulan Praetor and her response was basically, "IDGAF about no peace! I ain't tryna be your friend!" -------- What can I say? I like her.

[Affogato]

50 minutes ago, marinw said:

ITA. I keep thinking that Pike's command style is more Picard than Kirk. Picard will always be my favourite captian. 

I'm not onboard with this Kirk either. Chris Pine was so much better.

That was a good James Doohan sound-alike when poor Spock was talking to Scotty in the Jeffrey's tube.

Spock also died in the Prime timeline, but he got better. Did the Klingon Time Monks not see that?

The actress playng the Romulan Preator looked very familair even with all that makeup and prosthetics.

Oh, Kirk is mine. But I'd place Pike as being more like Janeway.

[MaryMitch]

12 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

In the scenes with Kirk and Pike, Kirk looked like a gangly teenager with a head too big for his body.

He reminds me of Jeffrey Hunter, who played the original Christopher Pike in the pilot for TOS. So that was a bit distracting.

I hadn't seen "Balance Of Terror" in many years and didn't immediately recognize what was going on. I finally caught on, and the episode made a lot more sense. I went back and watched the original and I liked how they merged that episode into this one.

[Affogato]

14 minutes ago, Tyro49 said:

 Whoever has not seen TOS Balance of Terror should, to get the full meaning of this episode.

I've rewatched every Star Trek except TOS and I think now is the time.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Tyro49 said:

But in the original timeliness Pike had moved on and handed the Enterprise over to Kirk some years before his accident. Obviously that didn't happen in this timeline.

He leaves to become fleet captain which is why is was involved with the training exercises at the time of the accident. In the alternate timeline he probably chose to stay on the Enterprise as another step to prevent the accident. He wrote the letters to save the cadets and stayed Captain to save himself. 

[starri]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

Kirk is someone who makes logical intellectual and strategic decisions and passes them off as impulsive and emotional.

I've always thought that Kirk was kind of the middle path between Spock and McCoy.

I don't know if we see that with Paul Wesley's Kirk, because the dynamics that have shaped his life are so very different.

[Affogato]

2 minutes ago, starri said:

I've always thought that Kirk was kind of the middle path between Spock and McCoy.

I don't know if we see that with Paul Wesley's Kirk, because the dynamics that have shaped his life are so very different.

I think on one level kirk is midway between spock and mccoy but it may be inly the first layer. 

[sugarbaker design]

30 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I think on one level kirk is midway between spock and mccoy but it may be inly the first layer. 

I remember a psych major friend saying Spock was the ego, McCoy the id and Kirk the superego.

[jah1986]

2 hours ago, Tyro49 said:

 Whoever has not seen TOS Balance of Terror should, to get the full meaning of this episode.

I am one that has not seen many TOS episodes at all ( just not  a fan of TOS). But I think I may have to watch to get a balanced take on this episode. Thanks for a good suggestion.

[Starchild]

4 minutes ago, jah1986 said:

I am one that has not seen many TOS episodes at all ( just not  a fan of TOS). But I think I may have to watch to get a balanced take on this episode. Thanks for a good suggestion.

You should also watch the Menagerie two-parter, set after Pike's accident. It will give even more context to this one.

[QuantumMechanic]

4 hours ago, Tyro49 said:

But in the original timeliness Pike had moved on and handed the Enterprise over to Kirk some years before his accident. Obviously that didn't happen in this timeline.

Oh, good point.

So how about this...

1. Pike had accepted his fate because he couldn't bring himself to let those cadets die.
2. Then he hit on the idea of sending them all letters telling them not to be there.
3. Since the cadets wouldn't be there, there's no longer any need for *him* to be there.
4. Best way to make sure he's not there is to not accept the promotion off Enterprise.

(Of course, that still has problems.  The plate was going to rupture anyways, so some (different) cadets would have been killed, so Pike should feel guilty about that, too.)

[starri]

1 hour ago, jah1986 said:

I am one that has not seen many TOS episodes at all ( just not  a fan of TOS). But I think I may have to watch to get a balanced take on this episode. Thanks for a good suggestion.

"Balance of Terror" is a truly gripping episode.  It's astonishingly well made, and you'll recognize some lines from this episode.

I do think they should have just gone for it and had James Frain play the Romulan commander.