Dark Winds - General Discussion

[LittleIggy]

Poor Raymond! I’m confused though. Mrs. Nez said she got the helmet from Raymond, but wasn’t he killed before he could do anything with the helmet? 
The trading post dude was really putting on a grief performance when Leaphorn and Chee walked in, wasn’t he? 😆

[Melonie77]

2 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

Poor Raymond! I’m confused though. Mrs. Nez said she got the helmet from Raymond, but wasn’t he killed before he could do anything with the helmet? 

I'm confused about who Mrs Nez got the helmet from too. She did say "from that Begay guy" and Manuelito confirms by asking if it was Raymond Begay. Could Raymond have sold the helmet to Mrs Nez and when we see him get killed he was back at the lake for another different round of diving and searching? His bag actually didn't look like it was holding something as big as the helmet. I also don't know why Raymond brought the helmet to the flea market instead of to the police. Did Leaphorn forget to pay him?

[sugarbaker design]

7 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

Poor Raymond! I’m confused though. Mrs. Nez said she got the helmet from Raymond, but wasn’t he killed before he could do anything with the helmet? 
The trading post dude was really putting on a grief performance when Leaphorn and Chee walked in, wasn’t he? 😆

Raymond made at least two dives in the lake.  The first resulted in the helmet with the bullet hole.  

[LittleIggy]

3 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

Raymond made at least two dives in the lake.  The first resulted in the helmet with the bullet hole.  

Ah, bit of confusing editing.

[tennisgurl]

So are we now heading towards the accident not being so accidental? Was it just negligence or were they murdered because they found...something? Then how does the prophesy fit into what happened? Why did he only tell some people about what was coming? 

Poor Raymond, that was pretty brutal. The robbers are sure wracking up a lot of "sacrifices" so that their big plan can finally come to fruition. 

Lousy day for Joe. He at least caught some of the bank robbers, but just about everything else is just pure stress. 

We finally get our Season of the Witch, complete with our favorite creepy desert witch in the flashbacks! 

[izabella]

On 7/4/2022 at 2:27 AM, Melonie77 said:

I'm not sure if I'm mixing scenes up but wasn't that a small roadside stand of some sort that he drove by? I didn't think it was someone in need of aid. I thought they were perhaps selling crafts.

You're right, there are two separate scenes.  On his way into town, Chee passed a truck stopped on the side of the road, with a few people standing over an open hood.  They tried to flag him down but he just sped past.

Later, Chee was the passenger in the police truck with Leaphorn when they slowly drove past a stand with a larger group of people around it, and no one needed help.

[Melonie77]

Thanks for clearing that up @izabella!
I only remembered the small roadside stand scene. Surprising that Chee would leave the other folks stranded.

[Zaffy]

I love this series, it is so well made and finally Zahn McClarnon got the lead part in a show! So much deserved!

"Father" Tso is just a serial killer in disguise. The man really likes to kill even when it is not needed, which is pretty much all the time. I am really surprised the Mormon family is still alive.

[Stuckathome]

I am a little confused....when they caught the one robber, the guy with the scars, he knew Chee....how?? 

Is the scar face man the father of Sally's baby and the one who beats her? I thought she said he stays with her mother sometimes....if he is not the baby daddy, is it "Father" Tso? Still no closer to finding out who killed the two people in the motel in episode 1. 

I really felt for Joe when Emma just went ahead and said Sally could stay with them....I know it only seems right that she could and would do that as she said it is what she wanted and was right, but this is 1971....I am guessing most wives were not so opinionated and strong willed. Love the cast and the scenery, the music, all of it. 

[Raja]

12 minutes ago, Stuckathome said:

I am a little confused....when they caught the one robber, the guy with the scars, he knew Chee....how?? 

That he said "Agent" so that the Sergeant found out that she was the only one out of the undercover secret we are just to assume they crossed paths in an official capacity before the show events happened

[sugarbaker design]

32 minutes ago, Stuckathome said:

but this is 1971....I am guessing most wives were not so opinionated and strong willed.

Guess again.

[Stuckathome]

47 minutes ago, Raja said:

That he said "Agent" so that the Sergeant found out that she was the only one out of the undercover secret we are just to assume they crossed paths in an official capacity before the show events happened

Right....I wondered if he was a suspect all along? An informant for something else?? It just seems like if the FBI was aware of him he would have been mentioned by the other agent as a suspect or something when they would meet up to discuss the progress. 

[izabella]

2 hours ago, Stuckathome said:

I am a little confused....when they caught the one robber, the guy with the scars, he knew Chee....how?? 

Is the scar face man the father of Sally's baby and the one who beats her? I thought she said he stays with her mother sometimes....if he is not the baby daddy, is it "Father" Tso? Still no closer to finding out who killed the two people in the motel in episode 1. 

I don't know how they met, but he has been in cahoots with Tso the whole time.  He was one of the guys in the heist, and Tso and mustache guy were the others in the heist. 

I'm not clear on Sally's baby daddy.  I thought it was Tso, but it could be the guy with the scar.  Is his name Frank Naka?

I think the motel was a hit job by scar face guy and the witch.  I don't know why, though.  Could they have been witnesses to something?  The old guy was named Tso.  The guy we know as Tso is pretneding to be his grandson, for some reason.  Is his real name Frank Naka?

[sugarbaker design]

11 minutes ago, izabella said:

The guy we know as Tso is pretneding to be his grandson, for some reason. 

He is Tso's grandson.  James Tso is posing as his own twin Fr. Benjamin Tso.

Edited July 6, 2022 by sugarbaker design

[Raja]

8 minutes ago, izabella said:

I don't know how they met, but he has been in cahoots with Tso the whole time.  He was one of the guys in the heist, and Tso and mustache guy were the others in the heist. 

I'm not clear on Sally's baby daddy.  I thought it was Tso, but it could be the guy with the scar.  Is his name Frank Naka?

I think the motel was a hit job by scar face guy and the witch.  I don't know why, though.  Could they have been witnesses to something?  The old guy was named Tso.  The guy we know as Tso is pretneding to be his grandson, for some reason.  Is his real name Frank Naka?

I think it was "Father Tso" Hoski is the bad twin from the story he gave. It being harder to trip up a lie built on truth. While Nakai was only killing his people on direct orders

[mythoughtis]

Frank ( the guy with the scars) knows Chee because Chee and the other FBI agents crossed paths  with Frank as a suspect in other crimes. That was discussed between Chee and the other FBI agent at their restaurant meeting place. Chee told the agent that Leaphorn had mentioned hearing Franks name.  So when Chee found out that Frank was the one shooting at them, he arrested him. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by mythoughtis

[photo7521]

On 6/30/2022 at 9:24 AM, proserpina65 said:

Yeah, that's what I saw when I googled him.  Not Navajo, but from a Southwest people at least.

There are various First Nations living in the Southwest. I personally appreciated the scene where Leaphorn goes shopping in Gallup for the belt and he has to make sure to get a Dine belt and not a Pueblo (some made in China) one.

[Melonie77]

On 7/5/2022 at 10:48 PM, izabella said:

You're right, there are two separate scenes.  On his way into town, Chee passed a truck stopped on the side of the road, with a few people standing over an open hood.  They tried to flag him down but he just sped past.

Later, Chee was the passenger in the police truck with Leaphorn when they slowly drove past a stand with a larger group of people around it, and no one needed help.

Just finished watching episode 5 - won't give anything away but just wanted to say that Chee has yet another encounter with a vehicle parked on the side of the road - this one in distress and this time Chee stops to help. And he gets an interesting little reward for doing so!😁

[Attatude]

When will we get episode 5 and why have some of you seen it? I checked and it aired last weekend. I don’t like being an episode behind. If AMC is going to do that with all its programming, I won’t watch anything else on the network.

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Attatude said:

When will we get episode 5 and why have some of you seen it? I checked and it aired last weekend. I don’t like being an episode behind. If AMC is going to do that with all its programming, I won’t watch anything else on the network.

AMC plays catch up for the episodes shown AMC Premiere  for us non subscription basic cable channel folks on Sunday night

[AnimeMania]

S01.E06: HózhóoNaasháa

(Season Finale)    

July 10, 2022 on AMC+
July 17, 2022 on AMC

Spoiler

Leaphorn, Chee and Manuelito descend on the hiding place of the Buffalo Society, only to be confronted with hard decisions that could change the outcome of the rest of their lives.

[nodorothyparker]

I'm finally caught up through the fourth episode. Still really loving this even if I'm still not clear how they're going to wrap this up in the two remaining episodes. Not having read the books, I had to Google to confirm my thinking that the Buffalo Society is a fictional offshoot of AIM that was making headlines in the 1970s for its native activism. I'm curious at the thinking that leads to murdering poor hapless Raymond and a shootout with tribal police while keeping the Mormon family alive in a Silence of the Lambs hole in the ground after they've seen your faces.

The staging of the women's run/first period ritual was beautiful. We've already been told Sally hadn't been in the local school and has been kept rather isolated (which feels pretty relative in such a spread out area, but I digress), so I wasn't sure if that's all we were supposed to read into her being ignorant of that ritual or possibly the more sinister thought that she really is that young that she got pregnant before she could have it. The actress is 18 but I think we're supposed to think the character is much younger than that. I love Emma more with every scene and while I could understand that Joe probably doesn't want to get more personally involved with being responsible for Sally because he's got bigger fish to fry, it feels like he's missing a clear through line of Emma needing to be needed and wanting to protect Sally.

I like that the show is making a point of teaching us some history of things like reservations, sterilization policy, and residential schools in a way that feels natural.

[SunnyBeBe]

So, it was funny how after the big shootout (extremely loud gunfire) around the barn, that horse just waits patiently for the guy to run out, jump on his back and escape!  Lol

[pasdetrois]

9 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

The staging of the women's run/first period ritual was beautiful.

There are some lengthy Youtube videos of this ceremony. I think the one I watched is Apache. You may spot some Christianity in some of these ceremonies, as some southwestern Indians were heavily influenced by Catholic missions, and some were not.

[Melonie77]

On 7/8/2022 at 11:35 PM, Attatude said:

When will we get episode 5 and why have some of you seen it? I checked and it aired last weekend. I don’t like being an episode behind. If AMC is going to do that with all its programming, I won’t watch anything else on the network.

On 7/9/2022 at 12:43 AM, Raja said:

AMC plays catch up for the episodes shown AMC Premiere  for us non subscription basic cable channel folks on Sunday night

It was my understanding that the episodes were airing at the normal one a week pace on AMC, but you could join AMC+ streaming on Amazon Prime Video to have access to each episode one week in advance. I was interested in adding AMC+ to my channels on Prime anyway, so I did so last week and was thus able to see episode 5 in advance. 

However I am now a bit confused as I thought the 5th episode aired tonight at its regular time on AMC but I don't see anyone posting. And the 6th episode has not yet dropped on AMC+.🤷🏻‍♀️

[Raja]

52 minutes ago, Melonie77 said:

It was my understanding that the episodes were airing at the normal one a week pace on AMC, but you could join AMC+ streaming on Amazon Prime Video to have access to each episode one week in advance. I was interested in adding AMC+ to my channels on Prime anyway, so I did so last week and was thus able to see episode 5 in advance. 

However I am now a bit confused as I thought the 5th episode aired tonight at its regular time on AMC but I don't see anyone posting. And the 6th episode has not yet dropped on AMC+.🤷🏻‍♀️

AMC is doing a special Breaking Bad marathon before the last Better Call Saul episodes begin. I don't know about the specific Dark Winds schedule for this week's anomaly..

Edited July 11, 2022 by Raja

[Melonie77]

2 hours ago, Raja said:

AMC is doing a special Breaking Bad marathon before the last Better Call Saul episodes begin. I don't know about the specific Dark Winds schedule for this week's anomaly..

Thanks for the response. AMC stopped the Breaking Bad marathon to air a new episode of Dark Winds (episode 5 - title is "Ha'íínlni") at the regular time. 

The promise of #6, the next and last episode dropping early on Amazon Prime's AMC+ streaming channel did not happen yet.

[cardigirl]

I still love this series, but in tonight's episode (5), I was taken out of the story by Joe's keys jingling whenever he moved. I don't know how he expected to sneak up on anyone if he was making so much noise.

And I'm not sure they're going to explain away the witchcraft, at least not this season. Bernadette keeps being affected by it 

Edited July 11, 2022 by cardigirl

[possibilities]

Why would they explain away the witchcraft? Tony Hillerman's books include it without undercutting it in that way, and I think that doing so would be condescending (not to him; they change other things about his stories, but to the people represented).

I was also taken out of the scene by how much noise Joe was making in his approach. 

[Raja]

4 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Why would they explain away the witchcraft? Tony Hillerman's books include it without undercutting it in that way, and I think that doing so would be condescending (not to him; they change other things about his stories, but to the people represented).

I was also taken out of the scene by how much noise Joe was making in his approach. 

In other circles a mini debate has broken out. That while except for a proselytizing show like Pastor Della Reese's Touched by an Angel or a Christmas miracle episode the supernatural of Abrahamic religions don't work.  But the faith and supernatural of non European indigenous groups is real and works  

[cardigirl]

On 6/27/2022 at 3:20 PM, hatchetgirl said:

I'm thinking, when all is said and done, we will get earthly answers for everything, not witch ones.  As a previous poster above said, maybe the old man died from drinking the tainted water.  I'm thinking the lady died from poison in the liquor and not the black widow bite.  

I'm so excited.  I loved that Sally saw "Father Tso" through the windows and gave a name to Leaphorn's wife.  

I could eat this show with a spoon, it's just so good.  

Any idea why Leaphorn calls the FBI guy "high pockets"?

On 6/29/2022 at 11:40 AM, tennisgurl said:

My guess is that we will find seemingly logical explanations for everything that has happened and everything is wrapped up, until the very end where something creepy or mystical happens with no clear explanation, keeping it ambiguous if there was magic involved or not. 

On 6/29/2022 at 1:36 PM, mythoughtis said:

Oh the man totally died from drinking the tainted water. He specifically  said he had felt bad ever since he saw ‘ the mechanical  bird’.  
Wanda either died from the alcohol or from a  black widow spider.  Lester cautioned Leaphorn about the  wood pile having black widow spiders.  
Did something else  happen in the hotel room that resulted in the death of the girl.  Oh definitely… something that involved Devoted Dan and the other criminal.  We just don’t know what yet.  A more complete autopsy would have  found a toxin of some sort, and would have also found the cause for the older man’s death. 
That doesn’t negate the fact the the witch is totally creepy 

I thought there was a discussion going on about what is real vs. what is "magic," but it might not be explained away. I'm not Dine, so I guess I don't believe in the witch, but "there are more thing in heaven and earth ..." so I'll just have to go along. It bothers me that Bernadette is so helpless against the witch. 

[Zaffy]

Not fair we cannot binge watch this! NOT FAIR! wait another week, argh argh

[monakane]

I love this show so much.  Episode 6 was really intense.  Does anyone know if they are doing a season 2?

[sugarbaker design]

3 minutes ago, monakane said:

I love this show so much.  Episode 6 was really intense.  Does anyone know if they are doing a season 2?

Yup.

[nodorothyparker]

The show's already been renewed for a second season.

Vikings tried to straddle the line between what is real and what characters believed to be real with the Norse gods, with some varying degrees of success. If a character truly believed in it, then that's what it was. Cynical or situational beliefs, not so much. It feels like maybe that's what the show is going for here. Bernadette very much believes in the witch and dark magic, so maybe that makes her more susceptible to it? Either way the fight that literally burned down the house was hellacious.

Joe's noisy version of stealth aside, Zahn McClarnon was so very good in this one showing Joe's long buried grief and regret. His argument with Emma also confirmed what I'd suspected, that he's thrown himself into work since their son's death to the point that she's been left trying to fill the space. Which explains why she's been so adamant about nurturing and protecting Sally.

It feels pretty obvious that the show is barreling toward Chee becoming disillusioned enough with the FBI's handling of things that he embraces his roots and decides to stick around. 

[Zaffy]

1 hour ago, monakane said:

I love this show so much.  Episode 6 was really intense.  Does anyone know if they are doing a season 2?

where did you watch epi 6??

[proserpina65]

Never mind - already answered

Edited July 11, 2022 by proserpina65

[monakane]

17 minutes ago, Zaffy said:

where did you watch epi 6??

AMC+.  I cut the cable a few weeks ago and didn't want to miss "Better Call Saul" and I found this series.

[mythoughtis]

Oh I have changed my mind. I now think the show means us to believe that the witch is truly a witch.  Last nights episode:Bernadette ended up with two white streaks in her hair, an escaped prisoner and Wanda woke up as soon as the witch died. So I am convinced this is where the show is going. Doesn’t mean I have to believe it in real life- I can still enjoy it in the context of the show. 

[tennisgurl]

That certainly got intense, that's one way to defeat a curse. By beating the crap out of the witch who cursed you! I cant believe that we only have one more episode left, I feel like we still have a lot of ground to cover, thank god we already know we have another season. 

As to if they will end up confirming that magic is actually happening, I still tend to think that they will keep it ambiguous. We will get some "realistic" answers but with some lingering questions and ambiguities, which I think would also fit a lot of the themes of the show. Several characters have talked about whether or not they believe in traditional native magic, as religion, as culture, as superstition, as fact, as belief, and whether it really matters whether or not the magic is real as long as people believe that its real. I don't think they will totally discount the idea of magic being a part of this. The witch certainly seems to be the real deal at least.

Some really great performances here, especially from Zahn McClarnon when he admitted that he feels guilty for not pushing his son more towards college because he wanted him to stay close, there was so much grief and pain. 

Its pretty clear that Chee is over the FBI, he is never taking that job in DC.

Edited July 11, 2022 by tennisgurl

[abbyzenn]

I'm kinda confused on the pregnant girl.  Since the father of her baby isn't one of the robbers I'm not really sure why she's that amount of time that's been given to her or for that matter why she's even in the show.   Is her mother the witch? (I can't remember).

This was an excellent episode.  So much happening especially in the last 15 minutes or so.  So is Highpockets in on the robbery or just incompetent or just really doesn't care?

[magdalene]

I hope the wicked witch is really dead.  Shudders just imagining her evil smile.

I thought the father of the baby is the glasses guy, the fake priest? Did I miss something?

[Dowel Jones]

And on another note, the robbery crew pushed the helicopter over a rock cliff, and it breaks apart all the way down to the lakeside.  However, previous scenes show it completely submerged in the lake bottom.  That's a lot of work to get all those pieces cleaned up and dumped in the lake.  

Even if it is the 70s, I'm surprised that the Tribal Police are relying on revolvers instead of automatics.  The bad guys had them, and Leaphorn makes a point of saying that he's out of ammunition during the shootout.

[Auntie Anxiety]

1 hour ago, magdalene said:

I thought the father of the baby is the glasses guy, the fake priest? Did I miss something

I think you got it right. Emma told Leaphorn that the “Father” was the father.

[SunnyBeBe]

So, just finished up.  I still have questions.  Like where is the cash?

[mythoughtis]

27 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So, just finished up.  I still have questions.  Like where is the cash?

Some of it was given to Devoted Dan - the car lot guy.  He was told to use it to supply the Navajo with new(er)  cars.  So in that respect, the robbers were using the money to help their fellow Native  Americans.  
When they weren’t killing them,  impregnating them, imprisoning them or getting them stung by spiders 

[Raja]

3 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

Even if it is the 70s, I'm surprised that the Tribal Police are relying on revolvers instead of automatics.  The bad guys had them, and Leaphorn makes a point of saying that he's out of ammunition during the shootout.

American police forces only started switching to pistols in the 80s. The FBI after a bank robbery squad got massacred in Miami in 1986. David Soul, Hutch of Starsky and Hutch played one of the bank robber murderers in a TV movie on the shootout 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Raja

[Maren]

12 hours ago, Zaffy said:

Not fair we cannot binge watch this! NOT FAIR! wait another week, argh argh

RIGHT???

[possibilities]

I keep forgetting it's the 1970s.

[Melonie77]

3 hours ago, possibilities said:

I keep forgetting it's the 1970s.

It's funny you should say this because as much as I love this show, I don't think production spent enough on set design and I too occasionally found myself forgetting the time period.

IMO the show did not visually depict the early 1970s strongly enough. The sets seemed to lack a decent amount of period articles in the background and I noticed that extras did not look like they were styled all the way or very well.
I was disappointed in the look of the trading post and some of the other interior locations. There should have been more turquoise and sterling jewelry being worn....squash blossom necklaces, cuffs, long earrings. loads of rings.

I read that the producers originally wanted to move the story out of the 70s in order to save money. For me a good part of the appeal is the period setting.  Comparing this show to the fabulous period look of a series like Mad Men underlines how Dark Winds comes up a bit short in this area.