Do You Consider Yourself A Feminist?: Why Or Why Not?

[peacheslatour]

Here's a news item for us.

Athletes on the Norwegian women's beach handball team are being punished for wearing shorts rather than bikini bottoms during a recent game, with the European Handball Federation leveling fines over "a case of improper clothing."

The federation's disciplinary commission imposed a fine of 150 euros per player (around $175) on the 10-member squad. In a joint statement with the International Handball Federation, the officials said that "all efforts will be taken in order to further promote the sport. This includes the ideal presentation of the sport and, by that, includes the outfit of the players."

SPORTS

A Swim Cap Made For Black Hair Will Get A 2nd Look From Swimming's Governing Body

Norway's team gave advance warning to officials at the European Beach Handball Championship that the athletes would wear shorts rather than bikini bottoms when they faced Spain in a bronze-medal game Sunday. The Norwegians lost that game — but they also said they were proud to make a statement by playing in shorts instead of bikini bottoms.

"We are overwhelmed by the attention and support from all over the world!" the team said. "We really hope this will result in a change of this nonsense rule!" it added.

[theredhead77]

4 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Here's a news item for us.

Athletes on the Norwegian women's beach handball team are being punished for wearing shorts rather than bikini bottoms during a recent game, with the European Handball Federation leveling fines over "a case of improper clothing."

The federation's disciplinary commission imposed a fine of 150 euros per player (around $175) on the 10-member squad. In a joint statement with the International Handball Federation, the officials said that "all efforts will be taken in order to further promote the sport. This includes the ideal presentation of the sport and, by that, includes the outfit of the players."

SPORTS

A Swim Cap Made For Black Hair Will Get A 2nd Look From Swimming's Governing Body

Norway's team gave advance warning to officials at the European Beach Handball Championship that the athletes would wear shorts rather than bikini bottoms when they faced Spain in a bronze-medal game Sunday. The Norwegians lost that game — but they also said they were proud to make a statement by playing in shorts instead of bikini bottoms.

"We are overwhelmed by the attention and support from all over the world!" the team said. "We really hope this will result in a change of this nonsense rule!" it added.

P!nk offered to pay their fine.

 

 

[peacheslatour]

8 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

P!nk offered to pay their fine.

 

 

Yes, she did and good for her. It's a ridiculous rule.

[supposebly]

Meanwhile, the German gymnastics team makes headlines for their unitards. I hope one day, we can stop discussing what female athletes wear.

CBC link

 

 

 

 

[RealHousewife]

48 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

P!nk offered to pay their fine.

 

 

I just love P!nk. She's such a good woman. 

Edited July 26, 2021 by RealHousewife

[JustHereForFood]

7 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Here's a news item for us.

Athletes on the Norwegian women's beach handball team are being punished for wearing shorts rather than bikini bottoms during a recent game, with the European Handball Federation leveling fines over "a case of improper clothing."

The federation's disciplinary commission imposed a fine of 150 euros per player (around $175) on the 10-member squad. In a joint statement with the International Handball Federation, the officials said that "all efforts will be taken in order to further promote the sport. This includes the ideal presentation of the sport and, by that, includes the outfit of the players."

Women cannot win. Usually it is the opposite and being less clothed gets called as inappropriate, but now apparently having more clothes on is inappropriate too in some situations. 

[theredhead77]

2 hours ago, supposebly said:

Meanwhile, the German gymnastics team makes headlines for their unitards. I hope one day, we can stop discussing what female athletes wear.

CBC link

 

 

 

 

Indeed. I look forward to the day when women can wear whatever uniform they choose. Prefer a leotard (like Biles has stated she does)? Great. Prefer a unitard? Great. I'm certain designers can make complimentary uniforms in both styles, they can do it for swimmers.

[Bastet]

6 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

but now apparently having more clothes on is inappropriate too in some situations. 

There are still way too many male judges who think female attorneys wearing pants, rather than skirts, as part of their suit are inappropriately dressed in court. 

[RealHousewife]

Here's an article with some advice on avoiding the pink tax. A lot of women say men's razors are better anyway. I never thought about purchasing a man's deodorant, but I might look into that. I'm not even the most thrifty person, but I resent that it's more expensive to be a woman. 

https://hip2save.com/tips/what-is-the-pink-tax/

[Bastet]

A lot of my toiletries are "men's" - which really means they're just the item (e.g. a razor) without a gender surcharge.

[PRgal]

9 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

Here's an article with some advice on avoiding the pink tax. A lot of women say men's razors are better anyway. I never thought about purchasing a man's deodorant, but I might look into that. I'm not even the most thrifty person, but I resent that it's more expensive to be a woman. 

https://hip2save.com/tips/what-is-the-pink-tax/

Razors, yes, but deodorant?  I don't know if I want to smell like that.  Unless it's unscented.  

[RealHousewife]

8 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Razors, yes, but deodorant?  I don't know if I want to smell like that.  Unless it's unscented.  

Haha, I saw some articles that suggested unscented men's deodorants. I'll check them out and see. I don't want to smell like a man either, but in the future I'm going to actually think if the additional cost of something is worth it. I'm a very feminine woman, love pink and for things to be pretty and smell perfumey. They just have to be worth the pink tax. 

[Bastet]

If I smell like my deodorant, it's too strongly scented.  I like my deodorant and lotion to be lightly scented, and if I want to smell of something, I wear perfume.

I don't buy into "masculine" and "feminine" fragrances, and I like a wide variety of scents, so I pick a deodorant, lotion, shaving gel, etc. based on whether I like the smell, not whether that smell has some bullshit designation as "manly" or "girly".  And if I like it, but it costs more just because it's labeled for women, I'm probably not going to buy it, just on principle.

[theredhead77]

15 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

Here's an article with some advice on avoiding the pink tax. A lot of women say men's razors are better anyway. I never thought about purchasing a man's deodorant, but I might look into that. I'm not even the most thrifty person, but I resent that it's more expensive to be a woman. 

https://hip2save.com/tips/what-is-the-pink-tax/

I love Dollar Shave Club.

[peacheslatour]

On 12/14/2021 at 4:55 PM, Bastet said:

If I smell like my deodorant, it's too strongly scented.  I like my deodorant and lotion to be lightly scented, and if I want to smell of something, I wear perfume.

I don't buy into "masculine" and "feminine" fragrances, and I like a wide variety of scents, so I pick a deodorant, lotion, shaving gel, etc. based on whether I like the smell, not whether that smell has some bullshit designation as "manly" or "girly".  And if I like it, but it costs more just because it's labeled for women, I'm probably not going to buy it, just on principle.

I used to wear Grey Flannel, a men's cologne. I loved the grassy but slightly woodsy scent.

[theredhead77]

1 hour ago, peacheslatour said:

I used to wear Grey Flannel, a men's cologne. I loved the grassy but slightly woodsy scent.

I used to be obsessed with Demeter fragrances

https://demeterfragrance.com/grass.html

[peacheslatour]

27 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

I used to be obsessed with Demeter fragrances

https://demeterfragrance.com/grass.html

I was looking for it on Amazon. They also have a baby powder scented one. Does it really smell like grass? That intrigues me.

[theredhead77]

1 minute ago, peacheslatour said:

I was looking for it on Amazon. They also have a baby powder scented one. Does it really smell like grass? That intrigues me.

I don't remember the grass but the other scents were pretty true to their name. Sephora used to sell it back in the day and it was one of the few things I could afford from there.

[peacheslatour]

2 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

I don't remember the grass but the other scents were pretty true to their name. Sephora used to sell it back in the day and it was one of the few things I could afford from there.

I've seen it at Ulta too. I might take a chance. Thanks!

[RealHousewife]

Great points in this article.

https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/commentary/betty-white-golden-girls-feminist-20220103.html

[Bookish Jen]

On 1/4/2022 at 1:58 AM, RealHousewife said:

Great points in this article.

https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/commentary/betty-white-golden-girls-feminist-20220103.html

Excellent article. Thanks for sharing it. As a woman of a certain age who is not married and has never had children, I am often rendered invisible or I am pitied and derided. This article means a lot to me.

[RealHousewife]

7 hours ago, Bookish Jen said:

Excellent article. Thanks for sharing it. As a woman of a certain age who is not married and has never had children, I am often rendered invisible or I am pitied and derided. This article means a lot to me.

You are welcome. :) The way women who aren't married and don't have children are often treated gets under my skin so much. It's not cool. It's like we shame everything in the world, but it's still okay to be like "Are you married yet? Don't you want to give your parents grandchildren?" Men don't have it as bad. And people always assume mothers are better, kinder, wiser, more selfless people than childfree women. That's another one that annoys me. I've known some horrible, cruel abusive women with kids, and some of the kindest women I've known never had any. 

[Bookish Jen]

9 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

You are welcome. :) The way women who aren't married and don't have children are often treated gets under my skin so much. It's not cool. It's like we shame everything in the world, but it's still okay to be like "Are you married yet? Don't you want to give your parents grandchildren?" Men don't have it as bad. And people always assume mothers are better, kinder, wiser, more selfless people than childfree women. That's another one that annoys me. I've known some horrible, cruel abusive women with kids, and some of the kindest women I've known never had any. 

Yes, we need more Betty Whites and Dolly Partons, and less Michelle Duggars.

[PRgal]

I posted this in the book thread as well:  I'm reading a book called How the Other Half Eats (Priya Fielding-Singh), which is about how food and how we feed our kids (which is, regardless of race or class, overwhelmingly a mom role.  I think it's really only a "dad role" in same-sex (whether married or living together) or single dad families, save for a very tiny minority of households).  Regardless of what your income is, there is stress on feeding them, and arguably MORE SO for those in the upper end (e.g. being notorious nutritional label readers, looking for items which are the LEAST processed (GUILTY!!!!!!!!!), sometimes announcing to the world proudly that their kids have never had this or that (e.g. boxed instant mac and cheese)).  She also argues that it isn't just the food desert situation for those in the lower end of the income spectrum, but because they need to find ways to say "yes" to their children, to give them what they want sometimes.  These are families who can't afford that new game or summer camp or trips abroad.  It's tough/sad that stress that is put on mothers when it comes to food.  I have to admit that the pandemic, along with our current income situation, has allowed us the privilege to expose our son to more foods (since many "nicer" restaurants started doing takeout) than he would be if things were "normal" as they are places we would not take him to eat in.  At the same time, he hasn't been to places most kids go to during "normal" times (he has been inside a McDonald's a total of ONE TIME.  When he was four months.  He slept through the entire thing).   

[BlackberryJam]

42 minutes ago, Bookish Jen said:

Yes, we need more Betty Whites and Dolly Partons, and less Michelle Duggars.

(Stannis Baratheon whisper: fewer.)

As a childless woman, I make it my business to not identify my female friends by their children. I'm not talking to Kalista's mom, I'm talking to Michelle. I consistently oppose my friends having emails that are "joeyandjennysmom@blah.com" When we have lunches, the rule is "we do not discuss friend's children." Lunch with Jam is a child-free zone. 

Women will often lose their identities in parenting and men don't. 

[SusanM]

26 minutes ago, PRgal said:

At the same time, he hasn't been to places most kids go to during "normal" times (he has been inside a McDonald's a total of ONE TIME.  When he was four months.  He slept through the entire thing). 

My kids were 'donalds addicts until they hit their teens when they became foodies.  Eating out with them at 'donalds was way cheaper 😄. 

[Bookish Jen]

33 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

(Stannis Baratheon whisper: fewer.)

As a childless woman, I make it my business to not identify my female friends by their children. I'm not talking to Kalista's mom, I'm talking to Michelle. I consistently oppose my friends having emails that are "joeyandjennysmom@blah.com" When we have lunches, the rule is "we do not discuss friend's children." Lunch with Jam is a child-free zone. 

Women will often lose their identities in parenting and men don't. 

And when Dr. Laura says, "I'm my kid's mom," all she's doing is referring to herself three times. It's so narcisstic.

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, SusannahM said:

My kids were 'donalds addicts until they hit their teens when they became foodies.  Eating out with them at 'donalds was way cheaper 😄. 

When I was little, their fries was the only fries I’d eat.  Other places were too “potato-y” for me.  I’m still not a big fan of potatoes.

[ratgirlagogo]

On 12/14/2021 at 5:18 AM, RealHousewife said:

I never thought about purchasing a man's deodorant, but I might look into that. 

Isn't deodorant just scent of some kind? As opposed to anti-perspirant, which is supposed to suppress perspiration, which is probably a bad idea.  In junior high school I insisted on using Mitchum because I was convinced (like many newly pubescent people with newly adult smelling sweat, I'd imagine) that my sweat was abnormally stinky.  Once I realized how nuts and even dangerous this idea was ( in high school) I started to just wear scent/perfume, which I still do.  

[isalicat]

On 1/9/2022 at 11:38 PM, ratgirlagogo said:

Isn't deodorant just scent of some kind? As opposed to anti-perspirant, which is supposed to suppress perspiration, which is probably a bad idea.  In junior high school I insisted on using Mitchum because I was convinced (like many newly pubescent people with newly adult smelling sweat, I'd imagine) that my sweat was abnormally stinky.  Once I realized how nuts and even dangerous this idea was ( in high school) I started to just wear scent/perfume, which I still do.  

I am with you on not using anti-perspirant, which (depending on the formulation) may or may not include harmful chemicals that can even increase your odds for Alzheimer's (aluminum), but deodorants are not necessarily just a scent - there are odor suppressing ingredients that can be very benign, and not all of us find sweat itself a pleasant odor. I use Tom's (the deodorant, NOT their anti-perspirant) which is completely unscented and works well and is entirely gender neutral :)

[RealHousewife]

What do you all think of the differences between being a man and woman in the workplace?

I feel like I went through more than my male coworkers. The young men in the office would often get babied, even by women just slightly older than them. On the other hand, men way older than me would hit on me. Guys could get really cruel if they were rejected. If you're a single woman and not terrible to look at, there's this balance between being friendly enough to men that they don't consider you stand-offish but not too friendly other women consider you a flirt. 

I also noticed that men could get away with being pretty unprofessional and rude, but women would just speak up for themselves and that would be considered a huge ordeal. I had a male supervisor who'd send out really nasty emails to everyone, and some people who didn't see an issue with it were the same ones who'd pick apart other women for very minor things. There was this one woman supervisor in particular who'd get picked on by everyone, and I never thought it was fair. She never yelled, cursed, or got aggressive. She'd just state her opinions and be direct with everybody. 

Regarding the pay gap, while I'm not one of those who thinks it's all due to sexism, I don't agree with the folks who say if it cost less to hire women, everyone would just hire women. I absolutely saw men get promoted for doing the exact same work. Even women who'd benefit from knowing the right people were always hard workers and really good at their jobs, the same couldn't be said for men. There are jobs where you essentially do the same tasks, but there are different levels for the job. 

[Bastet]

36 minutes ago, RealHousewife said:

What do you all think of the differences between being a man and woman in the workplace?

Well, women are routinely underpaid and under-promoted, dismissed, diminished, and harassed, so I think it stinks.

I'm a civil rights lawyer, focused on women's rights, so the male colleagues I collaborate with are progressive, enlightened souls.  They're better than most of their brethren, sure, but male privilege is still too often unexamined - and too often met with reflexive denial and defensiveness when pointed out.  The workplace is like any other sector within a patriarchal society - a sexist cesspool, operating as it was designed and continually empowered to.

There are tiny pockets - individual departments, maybe companies, never industries - where there's true equality, but in general women face all manner of discriminatory employment practices on the regular (not to mention sexist work environments that do not constitute a legal violation).  I litigate these cases all the time, and it ain't getting much better out there no matter how many individual victories we manage to achieve despite the burden of proof and how insidious the combination of systemic sexism and subconscious bias is.

[isalicat]

I have a very different take on this, having carved out a successful career in the technical recruiting business, pretty much entirely a male-centric profession (note: technical recruiting means finding people on retainer/commission for super specialized scientific and/or engineering openings for companies in the high technology world which includes biotech, software, hardware, connectivity, you name it...you got it). I did this for 40 years and retired in April 2019. (not that I'm retired...just not doing this anymore)

One of the things I did first (after spending 3 years being a member of staff at an established firm in the Bay Area and finally relinquishing the academic career plans I had when I began the job) was to join up with another person (a scientist, who had stumbled into this, as had I) and strike out on our own, taking two other staff with us as employees and then hiring various college students as administrative personnel before building the company with other recruiters.

If you are in a very male centric world you can use your femaleness as a huge asset, while retaining your professionalism entirely, from my experience. It is a question of balancing intuitiveness and empathy with the ability to cut off conversations or shift subjects without "giving offense" and yes, it is a learned skill, but an enormous advantage. I spoke with people who rarely had a chance to speak to a woman (outside their company's HR department) about their work experience: for both men and women it seemed being reasonably sympathetic to their (well, everyone's!) travails at work was so welcome. And in terms of dealing with the hiring executive managers or whomever, as they say (quite truly): you catch more flies with honey. I almost never saw any of my business contacts face to face after the early 1990s (when the Internet allowed us to transact everything from afar) and it was all my voice and emails that got stuff done. Okay...very long winded but there it is.

 

[SusanM]

11 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

Regarding the pay gap, while I'm not one of those who thinks it's all due to sexism, I don't agree with the folks who say if it cost less to hire women, everyone would just hire women. I absolutely saw men get promoted for doing the exact same work. Even women who'd benefit from knowing the right people were always hard workers and really good at their jobs, the same couldn't be said for men. There are jobs where you essentially do the same tasks, but there are different levels for the job. 

I read somewhere, not sure who said it first, that women will really only achieve true equality when she doesn't have to be twice as good at a job to get half as far as a man.  This has always struck me as true.  I am in a female dominated profession yet even in this men seem to end up in supervisory or managerial roles in a way that makes no sense if you look at the numbers.  I'm sure the apologists will say it's because the men work harder or women don't work hard enough but those of us on the ground (so to speak) know that's not the answer.

[PRgal]

10 hours ago, Bastet said:

Well, women are routinely underpaid and under-promoted, dismissed, diminished, and harassed, so I think it stinks.

I'm a civil rights lawyer, focused on women's rights, so the male colleagues I collaborate with are progressive, enlightened souls.  They're better than most of their brethren, sure, but male privilege is still too often unexamined - and too often met with reflexive denial and defensiveness when pointed out.  The workplace is like any other sector within a patriarchal society - a sexist cesspool, operating as it was designed and continually empowered to.

There are tiny pockets - individual departments, maybe companies, never industries - where there's true equality, but in general women face all manner of discriminatory employment practices on the regular (not to mention sexist work environments that do not constitute a legal violation).  I litigate these cases all the time, and it ain't getting much better out there no matter how many individual victories we manage to achieve despite the burden of proof and how insidious the combination of systemic sexism and subconscious bias is.

To be more specific, it becomes MORE sexist as soon as women do..."women things" like have a baby.  It's well documented (just Google it) that women without kids make more and are closer to the average male pay than those with kids.  In countries where there's paid parental leave, moms usually take the bulk (or all) of it.  You can lose months of experience, as I've said earlier.  That will put you behind those without having (or have less) responsibility for that second shift.  

[Bookish Jen]

1 hour ago, SusannahM said:

I read somewhere, not sure who said it first, that women will really only achieve true equality when she doesn't have to be twice as good at a job to get half as far as a man.  This has always struck me as true.  I am in a female dominated profession yet even in this men seem to end up in supervisory or managerial roles in a way that makes no sense if you look at the numbers.  I'm sure the apologists will say it's because the men work harder or women don't work hard enough but those of us on the ground (so to speak) know that's not the answer.

A friend and I were just talking about job ads and applying for jobs. Women think they have to have all of the qualifications, and if they don't, they're not likely to apply for these jobs. Meanwhile, a man could have say, less than half of the qualifications, and still think he can get the job, so they apply.

And regarding workplace behavior, around ten years ago I worked as a healthcare writer. I was called out and punished for some mistakes I made in a rough draft. One of my male co-workers wrote a horrible Power Point presentation with long run-on sentences and missing information, which was presented at a national conference. He faced no repercussions.

[Bastet]

5 hours ago, SusannahM said:

I read somewhere, not sure who said it first, that women will really only achieve true equality when she doesn't have to be twice as good at a job to get half as far as a man.

I think the late, great Bella Abzug said it well; the quote has been garbled like a game of telephone, so I don't know exactly which phrasing she actually used among the many variations floating around out there, but the point was this (dismissing the lie that things were equal in the workplace now that women were scattered throughout more of it, so shut up about it already):  It's not equality for a female Einstein to get a job as an assistant professor; when a female schlemiel gets promoted as quickly as a male schlemiel, then we're dealing with an equal playing field.

[PRgal]

6 hours ago, Bookish Jen said:

A friend and I were just talking about job ads and applying for jobs. Women think they have to have all of the qualifications, and if they don't, they're not likely to apply for these jobs. Meanwhile, a man could have say, less than half of the qualifications, and still think he can get the job, so they apply.

And regarding workplace behavior, around ten years ago I worked as a healthcare writer. I was called out and punished for some mistakes I made in a rough draft. One of my male co-workers wrote a horrible Power Point presentation with long run-on sentences and missing information, which was presented at a national conference. He faced no repercussions.

Just wondering:  were you called out by another woman?  We seem to be more critical of each other, meaner, even, at least in my experience.  I was once at a job where the manager was a middle aged woman, who, let's just say, wasn't very nice.  She was highly critical, not just of me, but everyone on the team.  She made us stay late, work weekends, even.  Oh well, at least we got overtime pay, but still.  She hated the guy I reported into and he was fired.  Guess who got canned shortly after him?  

[RealHousewife]

12 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Just wondering:  were you called out by another woman?  We seem to be more critical of each other, meaner, even, at least in my experience.  

I personally dealt with both positive and negative regarding how I was treated by men and women. But my worst experience was with a man who I wasn't interested in. He turned into a monster. I'd much rather deal with a female who's short with me than that. What was annoying to me is that the women who could be rude were always seen as being rude, whereas the men wouldn't even always be called out for it. It should go both ways imo. 

Where I had the same experience as you is I felt like women could be more critical of me. With men, if they found errors in my work, I still got credit for being a high producer and was given credit for my smarts. Even the supervisor I butted heads with gave me credit for being a very hard worker. The female lead at that place on the other hand picked me apart and tried to prevent me from getting a promotion. I don't consider her a typical woman though.  She was probably one of the worst people after the guy I mentioned above. My favorite supervisor was also a woman. She was sweet as pie. I also found women were less sensitive with me regarding things I'd say. If men think you're cute, they're very sensitive with every little comment. I actually found it much easier to joke around with women, even though we are considered the more sensitive ones. It's true men can talk trash and not take it personally, but that's with one another, not with us. 

[JustHereForFood]

I've only started to work full-time 7 years ago and am currently on my 3rd job, all in administrative, so my work experiences are limited. I have thankfully not experienced any of the discrimination that you mentioned, but I worked in teams with mostly female staff, except for my current job, so that could be a factor.

What I did experience is a prejudice from the HR and other colleagues when a new position has to be filled, that hiring a young woman is risky because she will surely want to have a child soon and go for a maternity leave. Or that if she has young children already that she will often need to take days off because they are sick. And this attitude mostly came from women, only once did I hear it from a man when I was in an internship at recruitment agency. I always try to point out that this doesn't have to be the case, as I am also a young woman and have no intention to ever have a child, but it's usually pointless. Of course, these were all positions that eventually were filled with young women, because they were all junior positions, but it makes me so annoyed. I mean, I get that people want to hire someone who will be able to work long-term and that many young women do have children. In my country, you can take maternity leave for up to 3 years and many women take all that time off, though recently there have been more cases when their partners take some of that time instead. But still, it is a bold assumption to make, there are women who don't want to have kids, those that want to have them later, or those who have trouble getting pregnant. And even if they want to have children soon, so what? There is no guarantee that they would stay in the company long without them either. In fact, at my previous job, the atmosphere was so bad that at least two of my colleagues only stayed there because they were already trying to get pregnant, they both said that otherwise they would leave and find other jobs.

Regarding the atmosphere at workplace, I think it's best when there are mixed teams of both men and women. I have no doubt that when men only work with other men that they can say a lot of mysoginistic stuff, though I obviously haven't experienced that. But when I was in all-female office spaces, it wasn't great either, in fact it reminded me of every bad stereotype there is about women gossiping. And I heard some women say quite mysoginistic things as well, when they were discussing some celebrity gossip. There was less of that when I was in office with both men and women and I had the feeling that men were trying more to not say anything that could be considered offensive than women. That's just my own experience, of course.

[peacheslatour]

Quote

And I heard some women say quite mysoginistic things as well, when they were discussing some celebrity gossip. 

This fascination with celebrities baffles me. I don't watch "reality" television and I don't give two shits about celebs. I like the way French refer to the as celebrities as "spectacles". Much more descriptive. I think caring about things like the Kardashians has weakened us as a society. And it certainly isn't just women. The way men idolize sports figures is just as detrimental. 

[RealHousewife]

40 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

What I did experience is a prejudice from the HR and other colleagues when a new position has to be filled, that hiring a young woman is risky because she will surely want to have a child soon and go for a maternity leave. Or that if she has young children already that she will often need to take days off because they are sick. And this attitude mostly came from women, only once did I hear it from a man when I was in an internship at recruitment agency. I always try to point out that this doesn't have to be the case, as I am also a young woman and have no intention to ever have a child, but it's usually pointless. Of course, these were all positions that eventually were filled with young women, because they were all junior positions, but it makes me so annoyed. I mean, I get that people want to hire someone who will be able to work long-term and that many young women do have children. In my country, you can take maternity leave for up to 3 years and many women take all that time off, though recently there have been more cases when their partners take some of that time instead. But still, it is a bold assumption to make, there are women who don't want to have kids, those that want to have them later, or those who have trouble getting pregnant. And even if they want to have children soon, so what? There is no guarantee that they would stay in the company long without them either. In fact, at my previous job, the atmosphere was so bad that at least two of my colleagues only stayed there because they were already trying to get pregnant, they both said that otherwise they would leave and find other jobs.

Regarding the atmosphere at workplace, I think it's best when there are mixed teams of both men and women. I have no doubt that when men only work with other men that they can say a lot of mysoginistic stuff, though I obviously haven't experienced that. But when I was in all-female office spaces, it wasn't great either, in fact it reminded me of every bad stereotype there is about women gossiping. And I heard some women say quite mysoginistic things as well, when they were discussing some celebrity gossip. There was less of that when I was in office with both men and women and I had the feeling that men were trying more to not say anything that could be considered offensive than women. That's just my own experience, of course.

That's one argument I've heard against maternity leave actually, that it will lead to discrimination against women of childbearing age. Do you think they should offer just as much paternity leave so women don't get the short end of the stick there? I also get the small business side of not being able to pay employees who don't work. I don't have the answers, just trying to learn. In your country, is it three years combined parental leave? Also, is it each child? What if someone has several kids? Do they really get paid to spend so many years at home? I do have European family and friends, including friends from Scandinavia who say it really is nice to live there, but we haven't discussed this specific issue. 

Agree. I think it's best when it's mixed too. Som of the most misogynistic stuff I've heard was also from women, one woman in particular actually. 

I've posted about said woman on here before. She's actually very sweet, and I became friends with her. But she'd constantly put women down. She'd say she's a man's woman and has always preferred men, that she loved living with only men and wouldn't have it any other way, that she preferred sons to daughters, that she wouldn't want to supervise women, that she doesn't do female friendships and women were always jealous of her, etc. She'd spoil men in the office, to the point people thought she was hitting on different men. She'd literally say she hates girls, I could go on and on. 

Even though we keep in touch, I think the only reason she bothers to stay friendly with me is because she wants a link to a guy I currently work with. (I think he also has a thing for her.) He on the other hand, does seem to genuinely really like me. It's kind of annoying because I think they both push me toward having lunches in the middle of covid. They're both married and without me or another mutual friend there, I don't think they could just call it a friendly work friend lunch or whatever, it would be like a date, but I digress. 

I'm not someone who's super sensitive and can understand criticizing BOTH sexes, but it's such a pet peeve of mine when people say half of humankind sucks. Not cool. 

Edited January 19, 2022 by RealHousewife

[BlackberryJam]

@RealHousewife In many conversations, especially with men, when I'm told I need to make my language equal and include men, etc, I say I'm making up for the thousands of years of male rule. The I propose that for ten years, just ten, men will spend 100% of their time making coffee and getting slapped on the ass leaving women in charge of every major decision. Just ten years, when women have put up with it for thousands. The suggestion doesn't go over well. 

I'm mostly joking when I do that, but part of me isn't. Part of me wants reparations. Part of me thinks a period of role reversal would be enlightening.

As a small business owner, I struggle with paid family leave and years of parental leave at all, even unpaid. In my field, there simply isn't a talent pool available to fill in for workers on parental leave, male or female. Also, as a person who doesn't want children and doesn't want to be around children, I think to myself, "Why the fuck would you want to take a year and be around a baby?  Those things are gross." So perhaps I'm not the right person to create a parental leave plan.

I don't think half the population is worthless or horrible or sucks. Oh wait, I do think that, just not based on gender. 

It sounds like your friend is dealing with a lot of internalized misogyny. I see it in my mom, who prioritizes the men in my family when scheduling things, deciding where or what to have for dinners, what gifts to buy, etc. Once I asked her why she did that and she answered, "Well, X male works hard and provides a lot for the family." My response was that I worked more hours and made over three times as much money as X, and that because of that, I often bought dinner for everyone, so why weren't my wishes considered first? She had no answer. In her family, the women cooked, the men got served dinner, the men ate, then the women cleaned the table, washed the dishes so they would have available plates/silverware, then the women ate while the men sat on the porch, then the women cleaned the entire kitchen and did dishes a second time. In her mind, men's wishes come first.

I always struggled visiting my mother's family because I am terrible at making beds; I don't enjoy cooking; I feel no desire to clean things; I don't like or enjoy children; and I'd get pissed off when ordered to do these things while my male cousins got to goof off. And I didn't keep my mouth shut about it. The work done in the home is valuable and very much underpaid, but gender imbue one with a special skill for it. I was made to feel worthless by my female relatives.

I'm in a male dominated profession and dealing with the Old Boys Network a lot. I realized early on that putting down other women might make the OBN feel good about me, but they weren't going to let me join the club. So I developed the attitude, and statement, "I'd participate in your pissing contest, but it'd just run down my leg. So why don't you stop being useless and start getting the work done?" 

[peacheslatour]

Quote

 "I'd participate in your pissing contest, but it'd just run down my leg. So why don't you stop being useless and start getting the work done?" 

I love it!

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

But when I was in all-female office spaces, it wasn't great either, in fact it reminded me of every bad stereotype there is about women gossiping.

I've been working a long time, including many offices that are all women, and have never once had that stereotypical experience.  The occasional incident or person, of course, but never anything where the group of women as a whole in any way resembled the gossipy, catty cartoons we are stereotyped as.

2 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

Do you think they should offer just as much paternity leave so women don't get the short end of the stick there?

I'm not the one you asked, but: Absolutely.  But it's two-fold -- we need  parental leave mandated and subsidized by the government, but we also need it to be understood within families as just that, parental leave.  Not maternity leave.  Parental leave, which should be distributed between both parents (if there are two) in the way that makes the most sense for them.  Not with the default being a dad takes a few days off after the kid is born, but any extended leave is taken by moms.

When it's seen as something mothers do, it harms all women, even those who don't have kids - as noted, women are denied hiring and/or promotion based on the "risk" she'll wind up taking leave, or quitting altogether, at some point to have kids.  And then when it is something mostly only done by mothers, it harms their career trajectories because they dare take time away and are seen as less committed to their careers.  If it's something parents do based on family circumstances, not gender roles, the stigma goes away and the time off is divided up equitably, so generally one person is not missing so much at once.

There's a flip side, too, ways in which non-parents get screwed in the workplace.  Elinor Burkett wrote a great book 20 years ago, The Baby Boon: How Family-Friendly America Cheats the Childless, examining that side of the coin.  (Basically, Corporate America fucks everyone but the top brass.)

[RealHousewife]

3 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

It sounds like your friend is dealing with a lot of internalized misogyny. I see it in my mom, who prioritizes the men in my family when scheduling things, deciding where or what to have for dinners, what gifts to buy, etc. Once I asked her why she did that and she answered, "Well, X male works hard and provides a lot for the family." My response was that I worked more hours and made over three times as much money as X, and that because of that, I often bought dinner for everyone, so why weren't my wishes considered first? She had no answer. In her family, the women cooked, the men got served dinner, the men ate, then the women cleaned the table, washed the dishes so they would have available plates/silverware, then the women ate while the men sat on the porch, then the women cleaned the entire kitchen and did dishes a second time. In her mind, men's wishes come first.

I've heard lots of comments like that from other people throughout the years too! "We must call it a night because HE works in the morning." Um, pretty sure there are women present who have to be up early too. I'm so sorry you deal with it in your own family! I get annoyed enough just dealing with it with a friend who may or may not be my friend for the right reasons. 

2 hours ago, Bastet said:

I've been working a long time, including many offices that are all women, and have never once had that stereotypical experience.  The occasional incident or person, of course, but never anything where the group of women as a whole in any way resembled the gossipy, catty cartoons we are stereotyped as.

I'm not the one you asked, but: Absolutely.  But it's two-fold -- we need  parental leave mandated and subsidized by the government, but we also need it to be understood within families as just that, parental leave.  Not maternity leave.  Parental leave, which should be distributed between both parents (if there are two) in the way that makes the most sense for them.  Not with the default being a dad takes a few days off after the kid is born, but any extended leave is taken by moms.

When it's seen as something mothers do, it harms all women, even those who don't have kids - as noted, women are denied hiring and/or promotion based on the "risk" she'll wind up taking leave, or quitting altogether, at some point to have kids.  And then when it is something mostly only done by mothers, it harms their career trajectories because they dare take time away and are seen as less committed to their careers.  If it's something parents do based on family circumstances, not gender roles, the stigma goes away and the time off is divided up equitably, so generally one person is not missing so much at once.

There's a flip side, too, ways in which non-parents get screwed in the workplace.  Elinor Burkett wrote a great book 20 years ago, The Baby Boon: How Family-Friendly America Cheats the Childless, examining that side of the coin.  (Basically, Corporate America fucks everyone but the top brass.)

Me neither! 

Oh, everyone is welcome to share their opinions! I just love getting other people's perspectives so I can learn more. 

I definitely have to read that book. As someone who's childfree but would like to have children (and does care about other people's children), I see both arguments. It's frustrating that sometimes as a single person, you feel like no one speaks up for you. It's always about benefits to help working families. Having children is also a choice, and there are so many childfree people who need help. If it were up to me, before the government would give everyone parental leave, something would be done about the homeless. Healthcare would be fixed. Some people are literally just trying to stay alive. I've also seen how single people constantly get screwed in the workplace. If you have kids, you can get away with calling in more, coming in late more, taking off more, and doing less work. The single people are also constantly buy gifts when other people get engaged, married, have babies, kids who sell things for school, etc. 

I noticed a review of the book said paying people for how many mouths they have to feed is actually antifeminist and why men have traditionally been paid more. 

Sounds about right. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by RealHousewife

[Anela]

I have experienced just as much drama with men, as I have with women. Maybe more from them. They don't get called out on it, as much as women do. I'm not going to get into certain experiences here, but this one guy - my brother-in-law, was always causing drama in my family (mostly between me and my sister/my sister and I - I have no idea which one is correct). This is why I no longer have a relationship with her. 

Hell, I've seen this guy on twitter, who runs something called Drama Alert. A grown man, making his money off gossip and drama on the internet. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Anela

[Anela]

Actually, thinking of those two: they put me through hell, simply because I didn't want to be around him, after he hit on me more than once (and did other things to cause problems between us). I was called all sorts of names, and treated like I was the worst person in the world, for setting a boundary. That's it. She chose to marry him, I didn't. As the single sister, I was expected to just deal, and extended family all shit on me, too. All because she was getting married. 

But when it was all kicked up again, over a year after my mother died, she told my dad, "He doesn't want to be around her, anyway" and that was fine. No explanation needed. I will never understand women who choose to put a man who attempts to cheat on them, more than once, over anyone else in their life. 

I watched this sort of thing happen in my mum's family, as I grew up, and decided I would never do that to my sister (or anyone else). I couldn't make that decision for my own sister, though. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Anela

[Bastet]

19 minutes ago, Anela said:

(mostly between me and my sister/my sister and I - I have no idea which one is correct)

"My sister and me".  You use "me" with between, and you put yourself last, so it's "my sister and me".  Just some trivia for the day.

[JustHereForFood]

20 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

That's one argument I've heard against maternity leave actually, that it will lead to discrimination against women of childbearing age. Do you think they should offer just as much paternity leave so women don't get the short end of the stick there? I also get the small business side of not being able to pay employees who don't work. I don't have the answers, just trying to learn. In your country, is it three years combined parental leave? Also, is it each child? What if someone has several kids? Do they really get paid to spend so many years at home? I do have European family and friends, including friends from Scandinavia who say it really is nice to live there, but we haven't discussed this specific issue. 

They actually do that here. I don't follow the rules closely, since I don't expect to need it, but it is devided into maternity leave which is 34 weeks (this one the father can take only if there is some medical reason why the woman can't take care of the child) when the mother is paid about the same as she was earning before and after those 34 weeks there is an optional parental leave which can be taken by either parent. But it has to be said that the money for this one is not great, it's less than a half of the averadge salary, so each family has to decide for themselves based on whether they want to stay with the kid, can afford it, what options for an alternative childcare they have, etc. I don't have any statistics, since again, I'm not really interested in it, but from what I heard from people around me, it's still mostly taken by women, with exceptions when the woman earns more than the man and he takes the leave for that reason. Or they each take a year or year and a half. And yes, if they have more kids it can be extended until the youngest is 3 years old.

But this shouldn't really be an issue with employers IMO, since it's paid by the government, not by them. The only problem it can cause them is that they can't fire a person while they are on parental leave. I am not and don't plan to be an employer, so maybe I just don't see something, but from my perspective there isn't any big issue with that. You can always just offer that position for a specific amount of time, the last time I was searching for a job I saw numerous advertisements for a "temporary posision for 1/2/3 years - covering for a parental leave" or something like that. And anyway, at least in fields that I worked in, there was always enough fluctuation anyway so people were always happy when someone was due to return from parental leave, since they just got back an employee who was already familiar with the company and work and presumably did not plan to leave soon, what with a small kid at home.

21 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

Agree. I think it's best when it's mixed too. Som of the most misogynistic stuff I've heard was also from women, one woman in particular actually. 

I've posted about said woman on here before. She's actually very sweet, and I became friends with her. But she'd constantly put women down. She'd say she's a man's woman and has always preferred men, that she loved living with only men and wouldn't have it any other way, that she preferred sons to daughters, that she wouldn't want to supervise women, that she doesn't do female friendships and women were always jealous of her, etc. She'd spoil men in the office, to the point people thought she was hitting on different men. She'd literally say she hates girls, I could go on and on. 

Even though we keep in touch, I think the only reason she bothers to stay friendly with me is because she wants a link to a guy I currently work with. (I think he also has a thing for her.) He on the other hand, does seem to genuinely really like me. It's kind of annoying because I think they both push me toward having lunches in the middle of covid. They're both married and without me or another mutual friend there, I don't think they could just call it a friendly work friend lunch or whatever, it would be like a date, but I digress.  

I'm sorry to hear that, that sounds horrible.

The experience I had with misogyny and gossip at workplace I mentioned earlier was mostly about some of my former colleagues commenting on female celebrities, for example when the conversation was about some celebrity couples where a woman is older than a man or less conventionally attractive, they would often have some really disgusting comments about said women. But to put it into perspective, said colleagues did not limit themselves to these comments, they would sometimes also say racist, homophobic or transphobic things and some of them had very outdated opinions about gender roles, even though they would otherwise be very sex-positive and would not take any crap if someone would comment on their behavior in a similar way. 

But as I said, I am sure that there is often similar talk, if not worse in all-male teams, it's just that I happened to work mostly with women, so of course I would have more bad experiences with them.