S03.E07: Fire and Ice

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Shadow and Marguerite's bond strengthens while he exposes an unexpected truth regarding a recent nearby crime spree; Wednesday stumbles upon a startling discovery of his own; Laura and Salim hope to strike a deal with an enemy's enemy.

Promo:

Original air date: 2/28/21

Edited February 28, 2021 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I was really hoping that Marguerite would pop out of one of the stores unexpectedly so we could see Shadow shove Cordelia away the same way he did to Laura last episode. I mean, if we're going to embrace Shadow being weirdly dickish, let's keep it going, right?

I guess I'm supposed to care that Shadow and Marguerite went ice skating and had sex, but I don't. It's not even because I'm a Laura/Shadow shipper who wants them to get back together. It's just that everything about Shadow and Marguerite has seemed so trite, expected, and frankly boring since they met but it's obvious that the writers think these two are adorable together.

I was far more interested in Laura and Salim negotiating with Mr. World. I really like that they've bonded during their road trip, so much so that she let him hammer out the terms of the agreement and then she asked for him to be protected along with Shadow.

[WatchrTina]

Okay, that was weird.  I have NO idea WTF that was that fell on the road and right now I'm not clear on whose disemboweled corpse Wednesday found.  

I enjoyed the soft-core porn in the hot tub because Ricky Whittle is nice to look at and I'm shallow.  And I got a kick out of Salim being an effective negotiator because that dude has not had much agency in the show so far.

But WTF WAS that that fell onto the road?  And did Tyr survive whatever that was that tracked him down or is Tyr the disemboweled corpse and an imposter is wearing his face in the car with Shadow?

Seriously, I am SO confused.

Edited March 1, 2021 by WatchrTina

[mjc570]

i've stuck with this show but now I'm starting to wonder why.  What actually happened besides Shadow finally having snow sex and some beautiful dancing by lovely Bilquis? I guess the revelation about Shadow's birth but I don't actually care at this point.

Remember when the description of the show was something to the effect that Odin was gathering old gods to band together to war with the New Gods?  

 

[T Summer]

Yes, I too am confused by what I just watched. Going to watch again. Previouslies suggest Wednesday is looking for Yohan (leader of Blooddeath)?

A burning body falls to ground and they show a Blooddeath featuring Mr. Wednesday poster and flash to a man being killed  and engulfed in fire. I first thought it was Yohan, but apparently not, as later on on the way into the slaughterhouse Wednesday stated he was looking for Yohan and might just kill him.

Looks like Laura agreed too quickly to Mr. World's terms. Laura Moon  comes back from the dead to keep Shadow from obliviously falling into Wednesday's clutches, to warn Shadow Wednesday means him no good. Yet she nonshalantly accepts  the terms if you fail to kill Wednesday, you will die and your friends will die.  Also, why did Salim ask for only 24 hours of protection for Laura afterwards? I didn't get that.

What exactly draws Shadow to Marguerite? She was cold and nasty to him in the beginning. She relaxes enough to behave  somewhat like a normal human being and Shadow is willing to give Laura the brush off and start something with her, when he's still feeling out this new town and not sure how long he'll stay.  I don't get that either. The only one I could have forgiven Shadow for falling under the spell of is Bilquist.... because Bilquist!

When Wednesday is explaining to Shadow Cordelia's showing up mid freakout, he said lately someone has taken to slaughtering my followers. So it seems the plummeting burning body was a follower.

The old woman Bilquist talks to reveals things about Shadow Moon as she midwifed him into this world. She tells Bilquist "only you have the power to find the other.  Shadow Moon is only one half. He can not  lead the people, the we... alone. You must find the other. If you do not, the people can never come together and these will be our last days."

I couldn't read what was on the paper on the  corpse in the Dentist's chair? [On the rewatch: Odin, come and find me at the Wolf Den with the son you hold most dear] Before we saw that, Tyr was startled by a  snarling fiend he addressed as  Yohan? [ETA: Was the corpse in the dentist's chair Yohan? dispatched by Tyr?] Right after, it looked like Shadow riding in the car Tyr was driving. What was up with that?

Oh... It was Yohan who was doing the slaughtering! So likely he killed  his band mates  a few episodes back, too? I guess that didn't register at first because we were told Marilyn Manson was being written out of the show, so I wasn't checking for him  in any more episodes. That could be why they didn't show the singer's face, only a flash of some  inhuman fiend on a rampage.

Funniest line of the episode for me was Cordelia:  "partly cloudy with a chance of human remains".

Who is this singing on the soundtracks to several episodes that sounds like Tom Waites light?

Edited March 1, 2021 by T Summer
added the thought Tyr might have killed Yohan and that was the corpse in the dental chair

[UnknownK]

17 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Okay, that was weird.  I have NO idea WTF that was that fell on the road

I assume that was Marilyn Manson getting written off the show. 😉

 

[rollacoaster]

The song at the end was "You Want It Darker" by Leonard Cohen. I had to look it up, those lyrics had me gobsmacked.  

 

[T Summer]

1 hour ago, rollacoaster said:

The song at the end was "You Want It Darker" by Leonard Cohen. I had to look it up, those lyrics had me gobsmacked.  

 

Thank you! How could I forget Leonard Cohen? just because he's no longer with us.
I was wondering if these were new songs.

[hnygrl]

Okay,we are officially in Adaptation Territory,  100% off-book. 

And ya know what?  I am loving it. I think I see where this is going,  but  not sure. Is "the other" Shadow's twin, another Wednesday kid, or something else all together? If  they're doing the "car" reveal this early on, I'm wondering if this is the last season for the show. 

Only thing I didn't agree with was Shadow and Marguerite getting it on, that was not necessary at all,and kind of a dick move for Shadow.

[T Summer]

hnygrl, Forgive me if I'm being obtuse, I haven't slept more than an hour. What is the car reveal?

Are you suggesting it was Shadow's twin in the car with Tyr? or something different?

I wondered that at first, but then noted he was dressed and groomed the same way we've seen Shadow this season.So IDK?

[hnygrl]

20 minutes ago, T Summer said:

hnygrl, Forgive me if I'm being obtuse, I haven't slept more than an hour. What is the car reveal?

Are you suggesting it was Shadow's twin in the car with Tyr? or something different?

I wondered that at first, but then noted he was dressed and groomed the same way we've seen Shadow this season.So IDK?

It's a book thing.(car reveal) Putting it here would be a major MAJOR spoiler. 

And when Bilquis was talking to the older lady in Chicago,  the lady said Bilquis would need not just Shadow, but 'the other ' as well, like there are 2 Wednesday kids or maybe one of his God-kids...not sure. 

[Normades]

16 hours ago, hnygrl said:

And when Bilquis was talking to the older lady in Chicago,  the lady said Bilquis would need not just Shadow, but 'the other ' as well, like there are 2 Wednesday kids or maybe one of his God-kids...not sure. 

I haven't rewatched yet, but I thought she said his other half.  I thought that could mean his mate, possibly Marguerite or even Laura.  I never really considered it to be a twin.

[taanja]

23 hours ago, rollacoaster said:

The song at the end was "You Want It Darker" by Leonard Cohen. I had to look it up, those lyrics had me gobsmacked.  

 

That song was way cool! Thankx!

Anyway since I haven't read any of the book(s) I have no expectations. I am not up on the lore of the gods so I just take what they give me and accept. 

Laure comes across to me as a jaded soul. I liked the scene where Shadow tells her that Wednesday is his father and she's like -- well shit! I didn't see that one coming.

and yes! I do notice the camera pans to and focuses on that box with Mad Sweeny's ashes. I would like him to come back to life. 

Shadow is the son of the Alt-Father. What does that even mean? I wonder? He seems to have the powers of intuition and clairvoyance. What other powers does he have?

also -- damn! Laura just went and made promises I hope she can keep! 

[tennisgurl]

Say what you will about this shows current quality, its soundtrack is still fire. 

I really have no idea what is going on with Wednesday and the killings that are following him, but I guess I am just along for the ride. There were a lot of scenes that I liked this week, but it was one of those episodes that seemed to be mostly hinting at future developments then doing much on its own. Just getting to the places where the characters need to be. 

I loved Selim negotiating terms for Laura's contract with the New Gods, he has been just along for the ride for so long its nice to see him grab some agency and I really like the odd friendship he has developed with Laura. I cant imagine this going well for Laura though. As Salem said, selling your soul to people like this always ends poorly.   

It looks like Shadow got a new coin, and from what looked like Ganapati the Hindu god under the water? Plus another Thunderbird sighting? What the hell is going on in Lakeside? How many gods are hanging around sending messages to Shadow? I really hated how he and Margarite met, but I really like seeing him so happy. 

Spoiler

It seems like they are basically going to keep the Lakeside story from the book, but they seem to be adding some other things to it, as this show often does. Lakeside only had one god as far as we know from what I remember, the one controlling the town who had been around for the towns whole history, so who are these other gods? Are they all just there for Shadow? It seems like at least the Thunderbird is connected to the town, so was it the god that Hinzelmann overtook, an Old God even older then she is? Was that what the flashback ages ago, with the tribe of Native Americans being killed, was about? Their god was replaced by the god of the Europeans? 

This season suffers from feelings rather aimless, and it is rather spinning its wheels waiting for certain plot points from the book to happen, but it also better than last season. Possibly less ambitious, but also more consistent. 

[T Summer]

8 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

 

It looks like Shadow got a new coin, and from what looked like Ganapati the Hindu god under the water? 

Now I'm going to have to go watch this damn thing again! When he was looking down and saw that gold elephant head ... I thought Ganesh (only because I did not know the word Ganapati) anyway, then he sees that coin roll over by the tire of the car on the ice. I remember wondering why he didn't go over and try to pick it up? You know to see if it was real or he was seeing things. Did I miss that?

[T Summer]

2 hours ago, taanja said:

Shadow is the son of the Alt-Father. What does that even mean? I wonder? He seems to have the powers of intuition and clairvoyance. What other powers does he have?

As I never watch with captioning on I kept thinking Odin was being referred to as the "Old Father". I Googled an apparently they're saying All Father?

"Odin, the one-eyed Norse god of war and the battlefield was revered by Berserkers, frenzied Viking warriors who fought ferociously without armor and felt no wounds. But Odin was a complex character who also had domain over wisdom and poetry. Norse mythology, also called Teutonic mythology, consists of the myths and legends of Scandinaviaand Germany. The foremost god in the Norse pantheon, Odin was father to many of the Aesir (Norse race of gods), including Thor and Balder, and a father-figure to others such as Loki. For this reason, Odin was often known as “Allfather.”

you can read more here, it also references the spear and the ravens who bring him news:

https://www.worldbook.com/behind-the-headlines/Mythic-Monday-Odin-the-Allfather

[LaMatadita]

5 hours ago, T Summer said:

I remember wondering why he didn't go over and try to pick it up? You know to see if it was real or he was seeing things. Did I miss that?

After he comes out of his vision trance, the camera does focus on the spot under the tire where the coin landed, and there's nothing there.

Edited March 3, 2021 by LaMatadita

[taanja]

20 hours ago, T Summer said:

Now I'm going to have to go watch this damn thing again! When he was looking down and saw that gold elephant head ... I thought Ganesh (only because I did not know the word Ganapati) anyway, then he sees that coin roll over by the tire of the car on the ice. I remember wondering why he didn't go over and try to pick it up? You know to see if it was real or he was seeing things. Did I miss that?

 I think the show is hinting that the disappeared girl is in that car-- they keep showing the car or mentioning it. I thought the coin was directing/pointing Shadow to go take a look see. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Was the flaming body that fell from the sky intended to drop right in front of Wednesday or was that just a coincidence? He seemed to take it as a direct message.

When the New Gods want to send you in to do their wet work and you're not reading the fine print, it's good to have your Omani buddy come hard with his negotiating skills.

Shadow seemed like he was enjoying getting into small town police work.

Shadow can make it snow. Okay. Whatever, that must be an interesting mix of sensations to have sex in an outdoor hot tub while it's snowing. (Yeah, I know that must be a relatively common experience, especially at ski resorts. Still, brrr.)

So Tyr killed Johan the berserker? And now he's basically kidnapped Shadow to force Wednesday to do battle?

Wonder if Lela Loren worries about getting typecast? That hot tub scene with Ricky Whittle was very reminiscent of some scenes she had on Power with Omari Hardwick.

[WatchrTina]

On 3/3/2021 at 1:54 PM, Joimiaroxeu said:

Shadow can make it snow. Okay. Whatever

We've seen that skill before.  He made it snow -- with Wednesday's coaching -- right before their bank caper in season 1.

[rollacoaster]

Bilquis' journey of discovery is giving me LIFE! I'm so excited to see what role she finally plays in all this.

In the dance scene, I noticed that Oya was present, along with Oshun and Yemoja. They didn't focus on her much, but she was present. 

I feel there are some shenanigans with Tyr and Shadow. I noticed that Tyr smirked while he was driving. Something feels off about him. 

I don't feel that Shadow is a dick for sleeping with Marguerite. He's single. Laura isn't even in love with him. Honestly, this relationship interests me the least of all. 

[LaMatadita]

I rewatched the scene with Bilquis and the midwife, and I’m still struggling to make sense out of that reveal. First of all, why does the midwife know anything about Shadow's fate or his “other half”? It would make some sense if it were being implied that he had a twin, but I don’t think that’s what was being said, and if it was and she was being cryptic about it, then that’s just needlessly obtuse writing. And why is Bilquis the only one who can find this "other half"? I just don’t feel like any dots are really connecting in my head about this at all, which makes me concerned that it may end up being a really poorly planned last-minute storyline.

We do have the guide in Purgatory telling Laura that she has a very important destiny before she got sucked back into her body in the real world, but they’ve done a pretty piss poor job of connecting her to Shadow over the last season and a half, and if anything they’ve dragged them further and further apart in a way that feels like rightfully moving on for both of them. They still have her taking Sweeney’s ashes with her everywhere and gave the two of them a romantic theme song this season, so it’s hard to imagine all of this playing out as Laura becoming a god and reconnecting with Shadow so they can rule America together. I think they still care about each other, but I just do not see Laura as the yin to Shadow’s yang at all, and I'm also not sure she'd have much interest in being a god (especially if you view Essie, who eventually wanted a normal, quiet life, as a blueprint or ancestor or previous incarnation of Laura).

I also find it interesting that they made Sweeney a debased version of the sun god Lugh in the show. It’s kind of hard to avoid seeing the sun/moon, gold/silver, light/shadow, fire/ice duality there. Perhaps the show is going to make some kind of connection between Odin’s son Balder (also a god of light, warmth, and the sun) and Lugh, as in, a version of Balder came to Ireland and became Lugh? Maybe Balor, the one-eyed Fomorian that Lugh killed with a spear, is also some sort of alternate version of Odin/Wednesday? The show just associated Bilquis with the Orishas, and we already know that Mad Sweeney the leprechaun was himself a de-evolution of Lugh, and the song Laura heard in purgatory was "Requiem for Balder," so these possibilities don’t seem like a narrative stretch. I also have to think they keep shoving Sweeney’s ashes in our faces for some reason that goes beyond emotionally torturing fans. However, I don’t really see what Bilquis would have to do with any of it, and it also seems a little messed up for America to have two kings rather than a king and a queen.

Book spoiler below...

Spoiler

It’s probably also worth pointing out that in the book, Shadow himself dies and ends up being reborn as the sun god Balder or something along those lines. I’m not sure if they’re keeping that element of the original story considering that we’re now being told he has some sort of mystical counterpart who is the “other side of the coin," but the song Laura heard in purgatory could also be a sign that they will indeed carry that story through.

I'm just frustrated that although a few interesting connections can be made here and there, I can't find a way to make it all add up to a complete whole. Obviously we shouldn't be able to figure out the entire endgame of the show yet, but trying to make sense of this new reveal just keeps running me into a brick wall.

Edited March 6, 2021 by LaMatadita

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

Hot tub:

Eat a dick:

 

[WatchrTina]

Okay I watched it again and I think it makes slightly more sense to me.  I assume now that American-Tyr never really got over American-Demeter choosing American-Odin over him back during the Revolutionary War.  And when Demeter reached out to him and invited him to the facility where she lived (recall that Tyr was in the audience during Wednesday's shadow puppet performance) he knew she was using him as a shield against Wednesday's charms.  So I'm going to assume that Tyr thought he FINALLY had a chance with Demeter -- and a chance to rub Odin's nose in it as well.  So when Demeter decided to transform into a murmuration of leaves instead of leaving with either Tyr or Wednesday, that must have pissed Tyr off and re-opened old wounds.  Perhaps THAT is the moment when he made the decision to kidnap Odin's son. (Because I'm pretty sure that's what's going on in the final scene with him and Shadow.)

I'm still pretty confused about Johan.  Is he simply a god gone mad -- one that USED to have a good relationship with Odin but then lost his mind?  And did Tyr kill Johan because Johan had been doing dirty work for Odin and Tyr has now decided to get rid of Odin's followers and henchmen?  Odin did say that SOMEONE was targeting his followers so I guess we the viewers are supposed to now understand that the boogyman hunting Odin's followers is Tyr.  Huh . . . and they say hell has no fury like a WOMAN scored.  Apparently an even bigger fury is that of a scorned minor norse deity with a rapidly dwindling number of followers.

[LaMatadita]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

Perhaps THAT is the moment when he made the decision to kidnap Odin's son. (Because I'm pretty sure that's what's going on in the final scene with him and Shadow.)

I thought Tyr just went after Shadow because he thought Wednesday sent Johan to kill him. Demeter may have something to do with it, but Johan went rogue, so Tyr may not have known that Johan wasn't there on Wednesday's orders. I'm not even sure if Tyr knows yet that Demeter is gone (because I paid limited attention to that storyline), but if he doesn't, then maybe he thought that Wednesday sent Johan to take out the competition? And if he does know, he still may have thought that Wednesday sent Johan to kill him. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by LaMatadita

[T Summer]

On 2/28/2021 at 9:46 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I was really hoping that Marguerite would pop out of one of the stores unexpectedly so we could see Shadow shove Cordelia away the same way he did to Laura last episode. I mean, if we're going to embrace Shadow being weirdly dickish, let's keep it going, right?

I guess I'm supposed to care that Shadow and Marguerite went ice skating and had sex, but I don't. It's not even because I'm a Laura/Shadow shipper who wants them to get back together. It's just that everything about Shadow and Marguerite has seemed so trite, expected, and frankly boring since they met but it's obvious that the writers think these two are adorable together.

I was far more interested in Laura and Salim negotiating with Mr. World. I really like that they've bonded during their road trip, so much so that she let him hammer out the terms of the agreement and then she asked for him to be protected along with Shadow.

It's not that I find Shadow dickish, but I must say I don't understand the  Shadow / Marguerite thing. His character has been hard to get a sense of in the past couple of seasons, though this year the writers have done more to show though capable of working minor cons, he's  a  decent friendly guy who tries to do the right thing by the people in his life.  I've never  seen him as  someone so insecure  and messed up  he'd  go after a woman who was  as nasty to him as Marguerite was in the beginning. I don't think  he'd see it as some sort of challenge, those people tend to be unwell..

we'll say the rifle to the head was understandable when he was trying to get in the house when his apt. lock was jammed, however...

asked her name, she said "property manager works"
she made him sleep in an apartment without heat in winter for no reason, the heat worked just fine.
she charged him $150 extra to get her car he was already paying  $100 to rent, cleaned up. she also threw the keys at him!

She was inappropriately  cold and rude to him. When he got back from Chicago with her car (actually her son Sandy's car) she  somewhat apologized and said seems we  got off on the wrong foot. It was then she fired up the heat which worked just fine, she'd had it turned off to save money!Then while handing her a homemade CD from the car he thought her son might like back  Shadow was asking about what he was studying and again she doesn't answer and leaves with if you need something you know where to find me.  Like she couldn't sustain 5 minutes of civility. Next thing we know  while off on the business of trying to save Bilquis and helping out Dad, there's  Shadow  calling Marguerite  and checking in like one would do with a significant other. That's quite a  transition that occurred! Now their skating date ends in hot tub sex? How did we get here?

*on that recording Marguerite reminded Sandy  to pick up Leon. Who is Leon?

 

 

 

 

 

[Kelda Feegle]

Did anyone else notice a weird thing with Shadow's pants when skating? Looked like grid iron padding under his jeans?

Bilquis continues to be gorgeous. I think that if The Other was a twin child to Shadow we would have seen more than one baby delivered?

[T Summer]

19 hours ago, LaMatadita said:

We do have the guide in Purgatory telling Laura that she has a very important destiny before she got sucked back into her body in the real world, but they’ve done a pretty piss poor job of connecting her to Shadow over the last season and a half, and if anything they’ve dragged them further and further apart in a way that feels like rightfully moving on for both of them. They still have her taking Sweeney’s ashes with her everywhere and gave the two of them a romantic theme song this season, so it’s hard to imagine all of this playing out as Laura becoming a god and reconnecting with Shadow so they can rule America together. I think they still care about each other, but I just do not see Laura as the yin to Shadow’s yang at all, and I'm also not sure she'd have much interest in being a god (especially if you view Essie, who eventually wanted a normal, quiet life, as a blueprint or ancestor or previous incarnation of Laura).

I also find it interesting that they made Sweeney a debased version of the sun god Lugh in the show. It’s kind of hard to avoid seeing the sun/moon, gold/silver, light/shadow, fire/ice duality there. Perhaps the show is going to make some kind of connection between Odin’s son Balder (also a god of light, warmth, and the sun) and Lugh, as in, a version of Balder came to Ireland and became Lugh? Maybe Balor, the one-eyed Fomorian that Lugh killed with a spear, is also some sort of alternate version of Odin/Wednesday? The show just associated Bilquis with the Orishas, and we already know that Mad Sweeney the leprechaun was himself a de-evolution of Lugh, and the song Laura heard in purgatory was "Requiem for Balder," so these possibilities don’t seem like a narrative stretch. I also have to think they keep shoving Sweeney’s ashes in our faces for some reason that goes beyond emotionally torturing fans. However, I don’t really see what Bilquis would have to do with any of it, and it also seems a little messed up for America to have two kings rather than a king and a queen.

As you stated Lamatilda I totally don't get the cryptic language of the Midwife to Bilquis "you must find the other". WTH? The only other she'd know about is a twin, wouldn't she just say that? And I  agree with the second part that Shadow and Laura have been depicted as moving farther and farther apart (I don't like it, but I see it. lol)

Where exactly do you suppose one takes a meeting with the Technical Gods? I wondered why Laura Moon told Mr World to eat a dick, but then I started thinking why would she trust him or go anywhere with him in the first place? No doubt Shadow would have mentioned to her that Technical Boy had him lynched? And I don't remember exactly what subdued the Technical Gods at Easter's house in s 1, but it does seem they were up to no good. Plus she killed one of their own!

The other thing is now that Laura Moon  no longer has super strength why doesn't anyone: Shadow, Mr Ibis, Salim or  even Mr World ask her why she imagines she's going to get anywhere near  a  thousand year old god (with blackbird messengers, yet) and slay him?

Re: the paragraph about Sweeney being depicted as a debased version of the sun god Lugh. I looked him up and I still don't really understand much more than before. When Shadow's stargazing lady friend, what was her name? Anyway,  back when she was gave  him "the moon" that silver coin, she said something about him already having been given the sun and letting it slip through his hands. I took it to mean Sweeney's coin he "gave" Laura. It's odd they didn't make it more clear exactly who and what Sweeney was if there was more to it. Just a  Leprechaun who lamented this land has no time for magic, no place for faeries and such folk? He said he had been  a   king? Brigette said he had God energy?  That coin must have carried powerful magic  to allow Laura to escape death and come back to earth and carry out her mission to  watch over and protect Shadow! Yet Sweeney when alive had to do Wednesday's bidding because he was indebted to him? It's all rather puzzling. Despite the fact that he kept saying you owe me a battle Grimnor, it doesn't appear Mad Sweeney is coming back.

 

 

[LaMatadita]

3 hours ago, T Summer said:

[Margeurite] was inappropriately  cold and rude to him.

I agree that they've used a little too much shorthand in hooking them up. It was obvious that she she was going to be his love interest from the moment they introduced her, so I think that's why my mind just went along with it. I also tend to be guarded myself, though, so I didn't really think she was being nasty for the sake of being nasty or because she disliked Shadow, but just because she's had experiences that cause her to keep her guard up. She's not intended to be a main character, though, so we may get the cliff notes version of what made her that way, or we may not!

3 hours ago, T Summer said:

The other thing is now that Laura Moon  no longer has super strength why doesn't anyone: Shadow, Mr Ibis, Salim or  even Mr World ask her why she imagines she's going to get anywhere near  a  thousand year old god (with blackbird messengers, yet) and slay him?

I've wondered this myself, but I just assumed they know her well enough to know there's no talking her out of it. I assume she's counting on the spear doing most of the work, but she's so tiny that I have a hard time imagining her even being able to lift it!

3 hours ago, T Summer said:

Anyway,  back when she was gave  him "the moon" that silver coin, she said something about him already having been given the sun and letting it slip through his hands. I took it to mean Sweeney's coin he "gave" Laura.

Yes, I assumed the same. The part about Sweeney being Lugh is explicitly stated in the show by Ibis in 2x07, the one where Sweeney dies.

3 hours ago, T Summer said:

Despite the fact that he kept saying you owe me a battle Grimnor, it doesn't appear Mad Sweeney is coming back.

He followed Laura's "advice" and found his own battle, i.e. his attempt to kill Wednesday, and he died in the attempt. As far as him coming back, he very well may not, but the writing is leaving way too much room for hope. Even Laura walking off with his body in the S2 finale gave viewers reason to hope, and now it's an entire season later and they still haven't done anything to make viewers think it's impossible. Brigitte told Laura it was “not easy,” not that it was impossible. When Laura was lamenting not being able to resurrect Sweeney to the crypt caretaker, he said that “there’s a time to be born, and there’s a time to die,” and Laura responded by saying “just because somebody wrote it in a book doesn’t mean it’s true.” Also, any number of things could have happened to Laura after she removed the coin from her chest and tried to pass it to Sweeney, but they chose to have her body disintegrate into a pile of dust or ash and then still get resurrected from that state. Sweeney is now a pile of ash, and that doesn't seem like a coincidence. And finally, there’s the fact that Laura hasn’t actually tried anything to resurrect him since her own resurrection, so the only failed attempts we have are Samedi’s (which happened offscreen and may not have even happened at all considering that Brigitte retrieved his body from under a pile of junk outside), and Laura fumblingly trying to pass the coin to him and promptly dying herself. 

His box of ashes is also prominently displayed in every episode, sometimes even getting its own close-ups, which is a constant reminder to viewers, and there's been at least one subtle moment that indicates that Laura keeping him close is not just about wanting the spear. They could have found a way to give Laura closure re: Sweeney when she was in purgatory, but instead we got a montage of memories with a sappy song written just for the show, and the song was repeated in the next episode. They didn't even have a theme song when he was alive, so why put that effort into a "dead" relationship? The writers also made a point of tying Laura and Sweeney together narratively/thematically/symbolically as early as 1x07 and basically made him a much more attractive and romantic figure than he was in the book, despite obviously knowing that he was going to die, so overall it seems like they put a lot of care into developing his character and that relationship only to have it end tragically before it could really go anywhere. (Shadow actually got to kiss Margeurite and have actual physical sex with her, whereas Laura and Sweeney didn't even get that far!)

The writers have had plenty of opportunities to make it clear that he's not coming back, and I don't think they've taken them--they have in fact actively avoided closing that door. His ashes are still around and Laura still hasn't really dealt with her feelings or gotten any closure, so to me, their narrative feels unfinished. I have no idea whether or not he will make an appearance in some form before the show is over, but if that's not part of the plan and they’re just dragging out the closure and/or using his ashes as a red herring, then it’s bad/misleading storytelling, which isn’t really what I’d expect from Gaiman (a winner of numerous literary awards and instructor of a MasterClass on the “Art of Storytelling”). So yeah, I'm not saying Sweeney is definitely coming back, I'm saying the writers are still asking viewers to emotionally invest in Sweeney and in Laura's relationship with him, so either there's a reason for it and that will have a payoff, or it's bad writing. You don't use a beloved character's remains as a red herring--that's just really poor taste.

Edited March 7, 2021 by LaMatadita

[T Summer]

26 minutes ago, LaMatadita said:

I agree that they've used a little too much shorthand in hooking them up. It was obvious that she she was going to be his love interest from the moment they introduced her, so I think that's why my mind just went along with it. I also tend to be guarded myself, though, so I didn't really think she was being nasty for the sake of being nasty or because she disliked Shadow, but just because she's had experiences that cause her to keep her guard up. She's not intended to be a main character, though, so we may get the cliff notes version of what made her that way, or we may not!

I've wondered this myself, but I just assumed they know her well enough to know there's no talking her out of it. I assume she's counting on the spear doing most of the work, but she's so tiny that I have a hard time imaging her even being able to lift it!

Yes, I assumed the same. The part about Sweeney being Lugh is explicitly stated in the show by Ibis in 2x07, the one where Sweeney dies.

He followed Laura's "advice" and found his own battle, i.e. his attempt to kill Wednesday, and he died in the attempt. As far as him coming back, he very well may not, but the writing is leaving way too much room for hope. Even Laura walking off with his body in the S2 finale gave viewers reason to hope, and now it's an entire season later and they still haven't done anything to make viewers think it's impossible. Brigitte told Laura it was “not easy,” not that it was impossible. When Laura was lamenting not being able to resurrect Sweeney to the crypt caretaker, he said that “there’s a time to be born, and there’s a time to die,” and Laura responded by saying “just because somebody wrote it in a book doesn’t mean it’s true.” Also, any number of things could have happened to Laura after she removed the coin from her chest and tried to pass it to Sweeney, but they chose to have her body disintegrate into a pile of dust or ash and then still get resurrected from that state. Sweeney is now a pile of ash, and that doesn't seem like a coincidence. And finally, there’s the fact that Laura hasn’t actually tried anything to resurrect him since her own resurrection, so the only failed attempts we have are Samedi’s (which happened offscreen and may not have even happened at all considering that Brigitte retrieved his body from under a pile of junk outside), and Laura fumblingly trying to pass the coin to him and promptly dying herself. 

His box of ashes is also prominently displayed in every episode, sometimes even getting its own close-ups, which is a constant reminder to viewers, and there's been at least one subtle moment that indicates that Laura keeping him close is not just about wanting the spear. They could have found a way to give Laura closure re: Sweeney when she was in purgatory, but instead we got a montage of memories with a sappy song written just for the show, and the song was repeated in the next episode. They didn't even have a theme song when he was alive, so why put that effort into a "dead" relationship? The writers also made a point of tying Laura and Sweeney together narratively/thematically/symbolically as early as 1x07 and basically made him a much more attractive and romantic figure than he was in the book, despite obviously knowing that he was going to die, so overall it seems like they put a lot of care into developing his character and that relationship only to have it end tragically before it could really go anywhere. (Shadow actually got to kiss Margeurite and have actual physical sex with her, whereas Laura and Sweeney didn't even get that far!)

The writers have had plenty of opportunities to make it clear that he's not coming back, and I don't think they've taken them--they have in fact actively avoided closing that door. His ashes are still around and Laura still hasn't really dealt with her feelings or gotten any closure, so to me, their narrative feels unfinished. I have no idea whether or not he will make an appearance in some form before the show is over, but if that's not part of the plan and they’re just dragging out the closure and/or using his ashes as a red herring, then it’s bad/misleading storytelling, which isn’t really what I’d expect from Gaiman (a winner of numerous literary awards and instructor of a MasterClass on the “Art of Storytelling”). So yeah, I'm not saying Sweeney is definitely coming back, I'm saying the writers are still asking viewers to emotionally invest in Sweeney and in Laura's relationship with him, so either there's a reason for it and that will have a payoff, or it's bad writing. You don't used a beloved characters remains as a red herring--that's just really poor taste.

OK, you convinced me!

I was only going by when we were awaiting the start of the new season and discussing the 3 new additions  I know I read a few posts by people who'd watched interviews with the actor who plays Mad Sweeney saying he said no, he's not returning. I suppose anything is possible, including having Pablo Schriever really downplay it if the writers are planning a big surprise at the end.

Ohhhho. I'm going to have to go rewatch s2 e7!

Edited March 7, 2021 by T Summer
left a point not addresses that I wanted to.

[LaMatadita]

2 hours ago, T Summer said:

OK, you convinced me!

I was only going by when we were awaiting the start of the new season and discussing the 3 new additions  I know I read a few posts by people who'd watched interviews with the actor who plays Mad Sweeney saying he said no, he's not returning. I suppose anything is possible, including having Pablo Schriever really downplay it if the writers are planning a big surprise at the end.

Ohhhho. I'm going to have to go rewatch s2 e7!

Heh, glad I was able to convince you. Reddit right now is pretty much an endless cycle of people going, "Why are they shoving Sweeny's ashes in our face in every episode?" and others going, "He's dead, get over it, Pablo said he's not coming back on Twitter." If he was coming back, he obviously wouldn't say so, but if he wasn't coming back, he'd obviously say the same thing! I wouldn't be at all surprised if he really didn't plan to come back after all the behind-the-scenes drama of S2, but with the way they've written the show this season... they're kind of playing with fire if he's not. I doubt he'd be back as a main character/main cast member, but it's hard not to wonder if maybe Gaiman convinced him to at least make an appearance. I think he's filming the Halo series right now, and I'm sure he has some other projects lined up, but it's not like any of us know the ins and outs of his contracts or his shooting schedule, so it's impossible to say.  

Most viewers liked Sweeney for his own sake, but if Laura and Sweeney's relationship is really just over and done with no satisfying closure, then they basically took a minor character from the book and upgraded him to be this charismatic romantic figure who got not one, but TWO backstory episodes of his own... just for the sake of using him as a plot device to resurrect Laura? And now they're, what, using his ashes as a plot device, too? If that's really the case, they're doing him dirty, and viewers too.

Edited March 7, 2021 by LaMatadita

[T Summer]

50 minutes ago, LaMatadita said:

Heh, glad I was able to convince you. Reddit right now is pretty much an endless cycle of people going, "Why are they shoving Sweeny's ashes in our face in every episode?" and others going, "He's dead, get over it, Pablo said he's not coming back on Twitter." If he was coming back, he obviously wouldn't say so, but if he wasn't coming back, he'd obviously say the same thing! I wouldn't be at all surprised if he really didn't plan to come back after all the behind-the-scenes drama of S2, but with the way they've written the show this season... they're kind of playing with fire if he's not. I doubt he'd be back as a main character/main cast member, but it's hard not to wonder if maybe Gaiman convinced him to at least make an appearance. I think he's filming the Halo series right now, and I'm sure he has some other projects lined up, but it's not like any of us know the ins and outs of his contracts or his shooting schedule, so it's impossible to say.  

Most viewers liked Sweeney for his own sake, but if Laura and Sweeney's relationship is really just over and done with no satisfying closure, then they basically took a minor character from the book and upgraded him to be this charismatic romantic figure who got not one, but TWO backstory episodes of his own... just for the sake of using him as a plot device to resurrect Laura? And now they're, what, using his ashes as a plot device, too? If that's really the case, they're doing him dirty, and viewers too.

Interesting you mention reddit. I never go there but  on 2 seperate evenings I was looking for info on the song Laura kept hearing in pergatory, Schweiger's Requiem of Baldr because I couldn't find  a version to listen to anywhere and landed there. The first time I was shocked by how much hate was being expressed toward Laura Moon and then yesterday (I think?) there were posts questioning "why so much airtime for Bilquis? ... the Bilquis scenes are boring" terrible place! I'm never going back.

Though I did enjoy  Laura and Sweeney's scenes together, I just do not think of them as having some great romance for all the reasons I stated over on the e 6 thread. I think she had just enough affection or whatever for him to spare him the same fate she wishes upon Wednesday, being he actually caused her accident + death albeit on Wednesday's orders. Her wanting to end Wednesday so badly is based on him being responsible for ruining her marriage to Shadow and stealing him away. Plus she feels Wednesday is going to harm Shadow getting him involved in his BS. That's how it  came across to me watching it anyway.

Even as she reflects on Sweeney's love for her and the miracle it brought about  with her being back among the living, this time fully alive, I don't see it replacing the love she felt for Shadow.  Mad Sweeney may have  been amusing to watch at times, but what was there to fall in love with, really ? How many times did he call her 'the c word' ? When we meet him he's pretty much a drunken brawler working for an arrogant a-hole he's indebted to. To me all the romanticized versions of Sweeney are in the glimpses ofhis past lives. He teased Laura Moon about smelling dead, attracting flies and being maggoty in front of Shadow Moon.  If she had feelings for him I think they'd be just beginning to seep into her    consciousness. Her mind has been and continues to be  on avenging her death and  loss of  Shadow by skewering Wednesday.

I could have it wrong in that I see it fundamentally different from the way you do, and they may have it play out as some great romance tragically snuffed out before it could be fully realized. Time will tell.

 

[LaMatadita]

4 hours ago, T Summer said:

The first time I was shocked by how much hate was being expressed toward Laura Moon and then yesterday (I think?) there were posts questioning "why so much airtime for Bilquis? ... the Bilquis scenes are boring" terrible place! I'm never going back.

I'm with you on that. I would guess that the viewership for the show skews more male, and that's where a lot of them gather. I love Laura and Bilquis, and I actually liked that Bilquis's storyline this season addressed the way she was basically just there to be sexualized and exoticized for most of S1. The show kind of called itself out there and I appreciated it, but I can see how that would go "whoosh" for some of the male viewers.

Edit: I have to ask, out of curiosity, what you thought was the point of Laura and Sweeney's souls making love in 2x05? The writers had Samedi point out once again that Laura hadn't loved Shadow, right before asking her what she was going to do when she wanted someone else and what she would do with her second chance and telling her that she had to pay for her potion with the truth, and then next thing we know Laura and Sweeney are together and she's gazing deeply into his eyes. You're obviously free to interpret it however you wish, but I guess I have trouble understanding your math!

I also connected to Sweeney pretty easily, and I think he and Laura were miserable little peas in a pod. From what we saw of his backstory, his extremely long life legitimately sucked. He guilt tripped himself for centuries over betraying, as I understand it, the very same allies (Christians) that ended up being responsible for downgrading him from a god king into a leprechaun. By the time we met him, he was weakened and debased and ashamed of working in service to someone he loathed, and even if Laura didn't have the same access to his backstory that viewers had, she could see that much, and I think she could also see that he had begun to care more about her than getting his coin back. She felt a kinship with him and he for her, and it became love. Definitely an off-kilter sort of love that ended tragically, but love nonetheless. Sweeney and Laura loved the same way, in a fierce "I mean the opposite of what I say because I'm damaged" sort of way, so for me, they fit together as the people they were. I think their souls also had (and still have) the potential to transcend their damage and create something healthier and more emotionally honest. Laura is already on her way there, and I think we saw that potential in him before we saw it in her.

Edited March 7, 2021 by LaMatadita

[T Summer]

7 hours ago, LaMatadita said:

I'm with you on that. I would guess that the viewership for the show skews more male, and that's where a lot of them gather. I love Laura and Bilquis, and I actually liked that Bilquis's storyline this season addressed the way she was basically just there to be sexualized and exoticized for most of S1. The show kind of called itself out there and I appreciated it, but I can see how that would go "whoosh" for some of the male viewers.

Edit: I have to ask, out of curiosity, what you thought was the point of Laura and Sweeney's souls making love in 2x05? The writers had Samedi point out once again that Laura hadn't loved Shadow, right before asking her what she was going to do when she wanted someone else and what she would do with her second chance and telling her that she had to pay for her potion with the truth, and then next thing we know Laura and Sweeney are together and she's gazing deeply into his eyes. You're obviously free to interpret it however you wish, but I guess I have trouble understanding your math!

I also connected to Sweeney pretty easily, and I think he and Laura were miserable little peas in a pod. From what we saw of his backstory, his extremely long life legitimately sucked. He guilt tripped himself for centuries over betraying, as I understand it, the very same allies (Christians) that ended up being responsible for downgrading him from a god king into a leprechaun. By the time we met him, he was weakened and debased and ashamed of working in service to someone he loathed, and even if Laura didn't have the same access to his backstory that viewers had, she could see that much, and I think she could also see that he had begun to care more about her than getting his coin back. She felt a kinship with him and he for her, and it became love. Definitely an off-kilter sort of love that ended tragically, but love nonetheless. Sweeney and Laura loved the same way, in a fierce "I mean the opposite of what I say because I'm damaged" sort of way, so for me, they fit together as the people they were. I think their souls also had (and still have) the potential to transcend their damage and create something healthier and more emotionally honest. Laura is already on her way there, and I think we saw that potential in him before we saw it in her.

One thing I'm a little unclear on is when they showed the vignettes of Mad Sweeney traveling with his wife and child  and when he was imprisoned with Essie Mcgowan and when  he said he  was a king, those were all those things  the character we know lived through? or were they past lives?

When Brigette asked are you sure that's the only reason you want to find this Leprechaun? Laura goes Ew, no revenge is the only itch I got to scratch (paraphrasing). In purgatory when a lady asked a question like that, Laura reacted similarly. When she had potion in hand she was all where the f' am I going to find that (meaning the missing ingredient)?  It didn't even occur to her Sweeney loved her, much less her returning th`ose feelings. That was what, the last time they were together? Bent on killing Wednesday as she was, I think she would have extracted the drops of blood from him herself, if she even suspected they'd do the trick. I know I know, it's all on a subconscious level for her at that point. That is why I don't think of it as some epic romance that greatly eclipses her proclaimed love for Shadow. That plus one truth that pretty much affects everyone eventually... just because you love someone doesn't mean they have to  love you back.

I trimmed a few things from my post on the e6  thread where we discussed this. One  because I thought it was enough already(on my part) and and the second thing I prefaced by saying it was  a bit silly and trite...

1. One reason I see it the way I do  is her marriage to Shadow predates her  budding whatever with Sweeney. I get that the writers are showing not exactly  a love/hate but maybe need/hate thing turning into something else.  Laura's starting to question if she laments Sweeney's death for more  reasons than just that he could turn over the spear. That, and   what  Ibis and Salim have tried to prod her into realizing;  the profoundness of  her having been loved by him and  resurrected for real this time, by that love. Thoughts + feelings of who Sweeney was to her are creeping up on her while still  laser focused on killing Wednesday and avenging her death and (what she perceives as) the ruining of her marriage.

In the case of Shadow, Laura  coming back to save him from peril with no thought to her own well being was the result of her will to do so plus the coin's magic they way I see it. Not something one would or could do to right a wrong or make amends.   Shadow has a whole  parent who mouths the words you're my son and he pulls him in when he needs him for a con or his stupid battle and  doesn't lift a finger when he's troubled  or even in physical danger. Different kind of love, parental vs romantic love but still...  Laura Moon would do anything to save Shadow even when it seems doubtful she'll ever get her happy ending with him. Loving feelings, caring about  someone's well being,  desire  and willingness to put the other person first  practically defines love the way I think of it... if love could  ever be defined. Cynical jaded people like Laura Moon love, too.

 

2. IDK if you've ever been to New Orleans, but I wouldn't trust what happened one night there to  define anyone's reality. lol

 

 

[LaMatadita]

On 3/7/2021 at 12:07 PM, T Summer said:

One thing I'm a little unclear on is when they showed the vignettes of Mad Sweeney traveling with his wife and child  and when he was imprisoned with Essie Mcgowan and when  he said he  was a king, those were all those things  the character we know lived through? or were they past lives?

They've been a little fuzzy on how all of it works, but it almost seems like a sort of... cell division, but with whole people/beings? So there was the Irish Sweeney whose backstory we saw in 1x07 and 2x07, and the Sweeney that we knew in the show was the American version of him who still had all of the memories of his entire history, though they were a bit mixed up due to time and trauma. It's sort of like if you were able to make a copy of yourself that contained all of your memories and life experiences up until that point, but then from that point on, the copy could change and grow independently from you. So our Sweeney has most of the same history as the Irish guy from the flashbacks, but that other Sweeney back in Ireland (if he's still around) is not our Sweeney because he's had different experiences since they diverged. There does seem to be a physical aspect to the gods splitting off and moving around, because Sweeney had a physical body that decomposed and was eventually cremated. There is also clearly a separate soul, so our American Sweeney is presumably in some kind of afterlife. 

Edit: Essie actually interacted with both Sweeney's, which is part of why it was such a cool story. She left food for Irish Sweeney as a girl and interacted with him when she was in jail (their conversation even foreshadowed American Sweeney giving Shadow his coin), and then she was partially responsible for bringing American Sweeney over, and he remembered her and saw her off to the afterlife as a way of saying thank you to her. So yes, the Sweeney that came to old Essie on her front porch when she died was our American Sweeney.

Edited March 12, 2021 by LaMatadita

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Vision beneath the lake: