S04.E03: Fairytale

[poeticlicensed]

6 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Yes! That's the image that is burned into my brain because she looked so happy. Now, watching this show, to learn she wanted out, well, this is television after all, so now I don't know what to believe. That she honestly wanted to marry him and that it just imploded because Charles just couldn't stay away from Camilla and just continued to betray her over and over again, which just led to ugliness.

I think she was happy. We are watching several years mashed into an hour. I think that before her wedding day she was as freaked out by the attention as she was about Charles being a douchelord. And I think that he and camilla did stay away from each other for a period of time. But eventually he took up with her again. 

[tennisgurl]

"I'm all for sharing" 

I really felt for Diana, that was just so depressing. Especially when she curtsied wrong and interrupted Margaret's long winded story and everyone ganged up on her while she looked terrified, that was just brutal, especially for such a young and sheltered woman. While Diana might have been prepared to be an upper crust wife and knew "the rules" and such, being a future queen is a totally different ballgame, especially when she has basically nothing to do besides learn how to curtsy and read letters. I really like how almost the whole episode is told from Diana's point of view, it really showed her going from being filled with girlish excitement at her fairy tale love story to nervous to desperately lonely and miserable. I also thought them showing so much of the spectacle around the wedding, through news reports and Diana reading her fan mail and interviews, as sort of far away from us, mostly instead focusing on how overwhelmed and lonely Diana was, did a great job contrasting the glamourous fairy tale with the sad reality. 

I guess I get why they didn't want to show the wedding, probably either because the budget would make it obviously pale in comparison to the real thing, or because its so iconic they thought that it might be pointless to try and recreate it, but I want to see a wedding! Come on show, if you cant show us Princess Anne foiling her own kidnapping, you could at least show us the wedding!

[swanpride]

I can't imagine though that Diana had no idea who to curtsy to first with her upbringing, though. Plus, she couldn't know that she was interrupting anything.

[dubbel zout]

3 minutes ago, swanpride said:

I can't imagine though that Diana had no idea who to curtsy to first with her upbringing, though.

I can see her not knowing if Margaret comes before Anne, for example, but the monarch is ALWAYS first. Even Margaret Thatcher knew that.

[Pallas]

On 11/16/2020 at 3:07 PM, swanpride said:

I can't imagine though that Diana had no idea who to curtsy to first with her upbringing, though.

Nerves, perhaps. She also knew her husband's name, but got it wrong in the vows. The kind of improbable slip that sounds more like an anxiety dream.  

[Roseanna]

30 minutes ago, swanpride said:

I can't imagine though that Diana had no idea who to curtsy to first with her upbringing, though. 

Of course she knew, having done splendidly in Balmoral. But she thought she was family now, so it was natural for her to meet first her fiance after weeks' separation. Being rebuked by him, she evidently became confused. 

[heavysnaxx]

6 hours ago, Jeeves said:

What strikes me about the whole "Charles has to marry a virgin" thing and the huge influence on his marriage prospects that was exerted? Was that two of the most important influencers were his grandmother the Queen Mum, and Uncle Dickie. We know that HM was greatly influenced by her mother (I've heard on documentaries that her constant refrain well into her long life was "we mustn't upset Mummy". Wow.) And of course Uncle Dickie had a huge influence on Charles - and was also a father figure to Philip.

Both the Queen Mum and Uncle Dickie were born in: 1900.

Yep. In the late 1970's, those two products of the Victorian/Edwardian eras, were if not calling the shots on Charles' marriage prospects, wielding big sticks in the family's (HM's) decisions. 

And, honestly. I don't dislike Charles. I don't think he proposed to Diana in bad faith, and I think he had intentions to call it off with Camilla (more than once). But, holy hell, he was such a fecking MESS. IMO, there was some bit of spark there between Charles and Diana at first, but it was fragile, and the differences between them were so vast, that the poor little spark barely survived for a few years, wavered and flickered, and never got to burst into any kind of real flame.

 

I agree with all of that but I could not forgive the Windsors in this episode on two matters:

-They knew the age difference and power differential. Charles was 31 and Diana 19. They knew it was essentially a job hiring and that Diana did not truly understand that. Heck, her ignorance was the core of her appeal to them as someone who knew how to perform the role but wasn't informed enough to see what the role really was. They exploited her.

-Her isolation once engaged and their failure to grasp that showing emotional care was part of doing their duty. They saw she was suffering and their response was to judge her as weak. It's grotesque. Did you notice how we never see her with her own family while getting ready for the wedding? She's alone. And I do blame Charles for this. He's the elder in age, rank, and knowledge. He knows what's going on. He could have shown simple concern for her as part of his duty. Honestly, I do have sympathy for him, in general, but the Windsors' defensive coldness is just plain cruel and he's continuing it.

[Roseanna]

6 minutes ago, heavysnaxx said:

Did you notice how we never see her with her own family while getting ready for the wedding? She's alone. 

Actually, we don't see her with her family even before. We see only her elder sister with Charles, not with Diana, and she evidently doesn't value her (works part-time in a kindergarten and a cleaner, is called "Dutch" because think there will be a splendid future for her). And we see her with her grandmother Lady Fermoy who was Queen Mother's lady-in-waiting who is keen that she succeeds in Balmoral and teaches her etiquette (irl the teachet was some other lady-in-waiting).

It's clear that characters must be fewer than in the reality, but irl also Diana's family was dysfunctional: her mother left her father for other man and she was denied the custody of her children because of the testimony of her own own mother Lady Fermoy. Then his father married Raine, the daughter of Barbara Cartland whom Diana detested. When Charles courted Diana, her father was ill and her mother lived abroad. 

All in all, she had no adult relative to advice her when Charles courted her. She wasn't evidently close to her elder sisters who were married and knew about Camilla and the royal life.   

[WatchrTina]

On 11/16/2020 at 3:22 PM, heavysnaxx said:

I do blame Charles for this. He's the elder in age, rank, and knowledge. He knows what's going on. He could have shown simple concern for her as part of his duty.

I agree that the Royal Family, as depicted, did not offer sufficient support to Diana during her engagement.  But what about her own family?  Lady Fermoy was her grandmother, right?  She was brought into help Diana with the protocol issues but she was portrayed as being unkind and very much #TeamRoyalty instead of #TeamDiana.  

And where were her sisters?  It sure seems like one of them could have stayed with her at Buckingham Palace for at least part of that time.  Remember that she had THREE flat-mates before moving into the Palace.  She was NOT used to being alone so much.  It seems really weird that she was depicted as being on her own for huge swaths of time.

I suppose it's possible that the show is exaggerating her pre-wedding isolation for effect.  It may well be that Diana's life was a buzz of activity during most of the run-up to the wedding, what with clothing fittings and the like.  And I presume any friend she chose to call during that time would have been only too delighted to take the call and hear about those plans (even if the Queen was too busy to take her calls.)  So I'm taking stories of lonely Diana roller-skating around the Palace with a grain of salt.  (Seriously, who packs roller skates when moving into a Palace?)  But the lack of contact between Charles and Diana prior to the wedding really WAS odd.

Edited November 19, 2020 by WatchrTina

[Atlanta]

4 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

ETA: I thought of another detail.  When Diana rode to the church she wore a front veil that was anchored by a headband of flowers.  When the front veil was removed, the crown of flowers was also removed to reveal an underlying jeweled tiara.  This was done because unmarried women are not supposed to wear tiaras.  (I learned that from Downton Abbey.) That front-covering veil is what you see depicted in the final shot of Diana in her gown in this episode (though you can't actually see the wreath of flowers because the shot is too close-up.)

I believe that was Fergie.

[AryasMum]

21 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

She was very young and naive.  I also presume there was probably pressure on her from her family, if only because Charles would have been a huge "get" and it would bring them prestige.

Her family was already aristocratic. The grandmother acted like they were five minutes from starvation, and Diana must save then all with a good marriage, circa 1822. 

[heavysnaxx]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Actually, we don't see her with her family even before. We see only her elder sister with Charles, not with Diana, and she evidently doesn't value her (works part-time in a kindergarten and a cleaner, is called "Dutch" because think there will be a splendid future for her). And we see her with her grandmother Lady Fermoy who was Queen Mother's lady-in-waiting who is keen that she succeeds in Balmoral and teaches her etiquette (irl the teachet was some other lady-in-waiting).

It's clear that characters must be fewer than in the reality, but irl also Diana's family was dysfunctional: her mother left her father for other man and she was denied the custody of her children because of the testimony of her own own mother Lady Fermoy. Then his father married Raine, the daughter of Barbara Cartland whom Diana detested. When Charles courted Diana, her father was ill and her mother lived abroad. 

All in all, she had no adult relative to advice her when Charles courted her. She wasn't evidently close to her elder sisters who were married and knew about Camilla and the royal life.   

 

2 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I agree that the Royal Family, as depicted, did not offer sufficient support to Diana during her engagement.  But what about her own family?  Lady Fermoy was her grandmother, right?  She was brought into help Diana with the protocol issues but she was portrayed as being unkind and very much #TeamRoyalty instead of #TeamDiana.  

And where were her sisters?  It sure seems like one of them could have stayed with her at Buckingham Palace for at least part of that time.  Remember that she had THREE flat-mates before moving into the Palace.  She was NOT used to being alone so much.  It seems really weird that she was depicted as being on her own for huge swaths of time.

I suppose it's possible that the show is exaggerating her pre-wedding isolation for effect.  It may well be that Diana's life was a buzz of activity during most of the run-up to the wedding, what with clothing fittings and like.  And I presume any friend she chose to call during that time would have been only too delighted to take the call and hear about those plans (even if the Queen was too busy to take her calls.)  So I'm taking stories of lonely Diana roller-skating around the Palace with a grain of salt.  (Seriously, who packs roller skates when moving into a Palace?)  But the lack of contact between Charles and Diana prior to the wedding really WAS odd.

It's difficult because I watched this after having read about her life and I need to stick to the show.

I agree with you both except on the point about Diana surely being able to have visitors - from what we see in episode, the move into Kensington was like crossing over into another world that was more a workplace than a home. She was instructed not to trust anyone outside the Palace in the lead-up to the wedding because of the media frenzy. Her family wasn't close in the way we mean close. Her friends were largely off-limits. I think people forget that, on the spectrum of royal marriages at the time, Diana for all of the Spencers' aristocracy, was considered a commoner and that meant if anything went wrong - if she talked honestly to a friend, the friend gossiped and the media got it - she would be blamed and her family shamed. Lady Fermoy made that clear.

And yet we see that the same Palace didn't ensure she had training in how to cope with the mammoth media frenzy or set her up with an inner-circle group. FFS, the family had each other to complain with about Diana yet these very senior "adults" never asked themselves who their newest family member might have to kvetch with. She was 19! How did they not grasp that she needed - and would do so much better with - intimates during such a stressful time?

Edited November 16, 2020 by heavysnaxx

[mledawn]

3 hours ago, swanpride said:

I can't imagine though that Diana had no idea who to curtsy to first with her upbringing, though. Plus, she couldn't know that she was interrupting anything.

She went to a finishing school for a year or something - she should have known a bit more than what was portrayed on the show.

My mum had my sister and I make a scrapbook about Charles and Diana's wedding, just as she had as a girl when Elizabeth and Phillip married. I still have the LIFE magazine with them on the cover, but I don't have the scrapbook anymore.

Edited November 16, 2020 by mledawn
grammar

[Umbelina]

On 11/15/2020 at 11:51 AM, Ellaria Sand said:

Let’s contrast two scenes: the carefree evening of fun and dancing with her friends vs the frightful entrance into the circle of royals with titles, curtsies, etc. I would have run out of that room, called off the engagement, and gotten as far away from Buckingham Palace as possible. Sadly, that wasn’t an option.

What a depressing and disturbing episode! I’m going to guess that the “real” Margaret never pointed out to the rest of the family that Charles didn’t love Diana and that the wedding should be called off. Kudos, however, to fictional Margaret even though having this discussion the night before the wedding was just a bit too late.

Much of this episode was hard to watch and I imagine that it will get worse.

I bet Margaret did!  It sounds like just the type of "truths" she would blurt out among family.  I don't think she ever got over her first love.

On 11/15/2020 at 2:25 PM, Dani said:

I’m pretty sure she was talking about her relationship with Peter Townsend. Fictional Margaret put all the blame for that on Elizabeth. 

I think she was talking about both, and frankly, I agree with her.  Probably down and down and down through history as well, but she, and now Charles were of a more modern age, but still stuck with ancient traditions and laws.

22 hours ago, peridot said:

I understand why Charles proposed, but why did Diana say yes?

She seemed to have a huge crush on him, many girls did at the time.  The show indicated that when Charles speaks with her sister.

12 hours ago, cardigirl said:

None of them were allowed to marry the people they wanted to and retain their standing in the royal family. Edward VIII abdicated rather than not marry Wallis, Margaret's first choice was sent off to a post in Europe and Charles was not allowed to marry Camilla. The family, in every case. deemed that these matches were not appropriate for the Crown, and changed the course of their lives. How different would history be, if they had been allowed to go with their initial choices? 

Aside from Wallis, I agree.  Wallis was a both a disaster with her Hitler love, and was beyond child bearing years as well as multi married.

6 hours ago, poeticlicensed said:

His family made it clear that they were never going to accept a divorcee. Yes, he probably could have pitched a fit when younger and married Camilla before she married Andrew PB, but he wasn't in a hurry. Once she married, their fate of not being together was sealed. I think Charles (and Camilla) accepted his marriage as being one of that they had been modeled their whole lives,  that Diana and Charles would get married, have the required children and then develop her own interests and relationships and they would live like many titled folks do, they just carry on with their individual lives and see their spouses on occaission. Diana had other, albeit not reality based ideas of marriage to Charles. Hence the trainwreck. I'm also appalled that it seemed to be known that Diana had an eating disorder and no one stepped in. 

It's all pretty tragic really.  I don't believe Dickie and Granny deliberately ensured Camilla and her husband's wedding took place while Charles was sent to sea duty (I do believe they got Charles out of there though.)  However, either way, Camilla was not intact, and many knew that.  Thus she was unacceptable for a future King's wife.  Also, I believe she was smitten, and head over heels with her husband (as Anne implies several times.)  Charles was convenient, it's always nice to have someone who adores you hanging around when your husband is cheating non stop.  I think she enjoyed being his mistress and bestie.

5 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Yes! That's the image that is burned into my brain because she looked so happy. Now, watching this episode, to learn she wanted out, well, this is television after all, so now I don't know what to believe. 

I'm pretty close to the shows version, even though I realize you can't cram years into a few on screen minutes.  I don't think they are deviating too much from the general feel of things.

4 hours ago, swanpride said:

I can't imagine though that Diana had no idea who to curtsy to first with her upbringing, though. Plus, she couldn't know that she was interrupting anything.

I doubt that as such a young girl, she'd ever been to such an informally arranged group of so many royals, at a rather formal party.  At best, she may have been in a greeting line, but to have them all there at once?  I can see nerves getting the best of anyone, as you turn in a circle trying to remember the curtsy order.  

Edited November 17, 2020 by Umbelina
clarified

[secnarf]

6 hours ago, Libby said:

The way that Charles and Camila manipulated and used Diana was disgraceful. They were adults and she was a teenaged girl. They should be ashamed of themselves.

To this day, I can't stand to see Charles and Camila together and happy. I hope that karma gets them at some point.

It's interesting, because if I were watching this show as fiction with absolutely no knowledge of "future history" or context beyond what is shown on the show, I would 100% be Team Camilla and frustrated that it is taking so long for them to get together (and now with Diana added into the mix - so obvious that she never really had a chance right from the start). They are portraying her and Charles as a perfect match. Of course, I also say this as someone who has paid extremely little attention to Camilla IRL.

I completely agree that it is disgusting and shameful how they are manipulating Diana, particularly given their history with each other - but I do think they are showing them to be an extremely good, 'destined' match for each other, in a way that surprised me given what little I knew of Camilla IRL.

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, AryasMum said:

Her family was already aristocratic. The grandmother acted like they were five minutes from starvation, and Diana must save then all with a good marriage, circa 1822. 

This is true, but even for aristocrats, having a future Queen in your immediate family puts you on a whole new level. 

[Bunnyette]

5 hours ago, swanpride said:

I can't imagine though that Diana had no idea who to curtsy to first with her upbringing, though. Plus, she couldn't know that she was interrupting anything.

Yes I agree...plus I don’t think they would have ganged up on her like that.  But she was so young!  Something else, her mother was around quite a bit during that time yet they couldn’t cast someone in that role.

[swanpride]

Frankly, I think the show kind of overstates how unhappy Diana was before the marriage. Yeah, I know, that's what she claimed in hindsight but, well, our memories tend to change over time. If she had really been THAT unhappy and the royal THAT unwelcoming, I doubt that she would have went through with it, face on towels or not. Personally I think that back then she was still deep in her fantasy and if there were things she was unhappy about, she most likely assumed that they would get better once they were married and Charles would be around all the time.

[Ohiopirate02]

11 hours ago, Bunnyette said:

Yes I agree...plus I don’t think they would have ganged up on her like that.  But she was so young!  Something else, her mother was around quite a bit during that time yet they couldn’t cast someone in that role.

I am missing more Spencers in the show.  This episode would have been a great place to show the audience the family Diana had.  Show why Diana latched onto Charles like she did.  Both of her parents were alive and Daddy walked her down the aisle, but the show makes it out like Diana was an orphan.  

[Ellaria]

7 hours ago, swanpride said:

Frankly, I think the show kind of overstates how unhappy Diana was before the marriage. Yeah, I know, that's what she claimed in hindsight but, well, our memories tend to change over time. If she had really been THAT unhappy and the royal THAT unwelcoming, I doubt that she would have went through with it, face on towels or not. Personally I think that back then she was still deep in her fantasy and if there were things she was unhappy about, she most likely assumed that they would get better once they were married and Charles would be around all the time.

Why can't both of these things be true? That she was unhappy but still wanted to pursue the fantasy of it.

I'm not sure that any 19-year-old could understand how to process this conflict in a clearheaded way. I certainly doubt that I could have at 19 and I was not nearly as naïve and sheltered as Diana was. Perception vs reality is the problem.

[BradandJanet]

When Charles made his "whatever love is" comment during the interview, the show shows Diana looking immediately appalled. I remember her smiling, rather awkwardly, but forcing a smile. She wasn't very assertive at that point in her life. 

I also cannot imagine Diana phoning the queen to demand a meeting to call off the wedding. She knew something was wrong, but she surely realized her options were severely limited by then. Running back to Althorp to hide from the press wasn't an attractive choice. 

Both Charles and Diana had lonely childhoods. They were too needy themselves to support the other. It might have appeared perfect on the surface--young prince, future king; beautiful young woman with good manners and background--but both may have been too damaged to make it work.  

 

[bijoux]

18 hours ago, heavysnaxx said:

I agree with all of that but I could not forgive the Windsors in this episode on two matters:

-They knew the age difference and power differential. Charles was 31 and Diana 19. They knew it was essentially a job hiring and that Diana did not truly understand that. Heck, her ignorance was the core of her appeal to them as someone who knew how to perform the role but wasn't informed enough to see what the role really was. They exploited her.

-Her isolation once engaged and their failure to grasp that showing emotional care was part of doing their duty. They saw she was suffering and their response was to judge her as weak. It's grotesque. Did you notice how we never see her with her own family while getting ready for the wedding? She's alone. And I do blame Charles for this. He's the elder in age, rank, and knowledge. He knows what's going on. He could have shown simple concern for her as part of his duty. Honestly, I do have sympathy for him, in general, but the Windsors' defensive coldness is just plain cruel and he's continuing it.

The family was more baffling to me than Charles. The guy proposed to her and promptly sent her on her way home. The family on the other hand was shown waiting for the news with bated breath at the beginning of the episode. And not one of these women could carve out half an hour to have tea with the girl? Come on, you all knew Charles was everywhere but around Diana, and you seemed more invested in the marriage than him. Work for it. 

I lay plenty of blame on Charles setting up playdates for Diana with Camilla. I don't know which of the two of them I find more insane in this instance. Dude, you could have set her up with Anne or basically anyone else. 

I fully expected Diana to be busted and scorned while rollerskating, so it was a relief that didn't happen. 

Now, someone remind me of either the show saying or implying so, or real world reports of Bertie's infidelities before I call bullshit on Queen Mum being all, that's how it is for everyone. I don't think it was for you, old woman. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

9 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Now, someone remind me of either the show saying or implying so, or real world reports of Bertie's infidelities before I call bullshit on Queen Mum being all, that's how it is for everyone. I don't think it was for you, old woman. 

Thank you! I swear, when I heard those lines, I did a double take! So I'm right there with you in calling BULLSHIT on that. I get it, I get it, this isn't a documentary, but there is something to be said to be factually accurate. And this is one of those things, as far as I am aware.

[WatchrTina]

1 hour ago, bijoux said:

Now, someone remind me of either the show saying or implying so, or real world reports of Bertie's infidelities before I call bullshit on Queen Mum being all, that's how it is for everyone. I don't think it was for you, old woman. 

Ah, but isn't that just the classic take of "that's just how it is . . . not for ME of course, but that's how it is for everyone else."  It's classic hypocrisy though, in this one case, it's an interesting flip on the usual rationalization for cheating.  I think people who cheat on their spouse tell themselves "everyone does it," even though that isn't true.   I think the Queen Mother told herself "all monarchs keep a mistress" even though her husband did NOT.  But then her husband was painfully shy with a severe stutter so of course he was the "exception".  His fidelity did not disprove the Queen Mother's understanding of how past and future kings of Great Britain had and would behave.

Edited November 17, 2020 by WatchrTina

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I think the Queen Mother told herself "all monarchs keep a mistress" even though her husband did NOT.  But then her husband was painfully shy with a severe stutter so of course he was the "exception".  His fidelity did not disprove the Queen Mother's understanding of how past and future kings of Great Britain had and would behave.

While that may be true, her tone indicated, at least to me, that Bertie had also cheated on her. So nope, still calling Bullshit.

[AimingforYoko]

Artistic flourish I liked: Over the closing credits, they just started with Stevie's vocal track, then gradually brought in the instrumental tracks.

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Ah, but isn't that just the classic take of "that's just how it is . . . not for ME of course, but that's how it is for everyone else."  It's classic hypocrisy though, in this one case, it's an interesting flip on the usual rationalization for cheating.  I think people who cheat on their spouse tell themselves "everyone does it," even though that isn't true.   I think the Queen Mother told herself "all monarchs keep a mistress" even though her husband did NOT.  But then her husband was painfully shy with a severe stutter so of course he was the "exception".  His fidelity did not disprove the Queen Mother's understanding of how past and future kings of Great Britain had and would behave.

What Queen Mother meant was that because royals and aristocracy coudn't marry for love, faithfulness wasn't even expected - it was considered "bourgeois". Once the heir and a spare was born, also wives could have affairs (like Churchill's mother had) on condition they acted in secret. Only queens were exceptions.  

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 11/15/2020 at 9:38 PM, WatchrTina said:

I don't know how realistic this episode is -- I take the scenes of Diana left all alone in the palace with a grain of salt -- but I presume Charles' prolonged absence during their engagement must be a historical fact.

I would think she would want to call friends or family to visit?

[dubbel zout]

Her friends had their own lives, to be fair. They probably couldn't just drop everything whenever Diana called. I think the friends had a better idea of what she was in for that Diana did. They seemed aware the days of them all getting together for a girls' night were over.

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, AimingforYoko said:

Artistic flourish I liked: Over the closing credits, they just started with Stevie's vocal track, then gradually brought in the instrumental tracks.

I couldn't help but sing along.  I love all of the music they're including.

[dubbel zout]

4 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I love all of the music they're including.

The music budget must be huge. They're using nearly all original versions of the songs.

[methodwriter85]

18 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

The music budget must be huge. They're using nearly all original versions of the songs.

I loved that they played Duran Duran. It's a great signifier of how young Diana actually is that she's into all this New Wave pop. 

[greekmom]

9 hours ago, BradandJanet said:

I also cannot imagine Diana phoning the queen to demand a meeting to call off the wedding. She knew something was wrong, but she surely realized her options were severely limited by then. Running back to Althorp to hide from the press wasn't an attractive choice. 

I was thinking she called the Queen to either ask her to talk to Charles (re Camilla) or to get some advice on how to handle it.

The fact that Charles told Diana to buddy up with Camilla was an early indication on how cruel, vindictive and callous he was in the marriage. 

I do wish at the restaurant Diana had the balls to take the cheque from Camilla and tell her she doesn't share. *sigh*

[Black Knight]

8 hours ago, bijoux said:

I lay plenty of blame on Charles setting up playdates for Diana with Camilla. I don't know which of the two of them I find more insane in this instance. Dude, you could have set her up with Anne or basically anyone else. 

I don't think Charles was thinking of Diana needing a companion when he set up the playdate, but about his future life. Camilla's basically his best friend, and even if he did have intentions of ending the sexual part of their relationship, he was never going to cut her out of his life. He depended on her. How much easier and more comfortable everything would be if his wife became friendly with his best friend, was probably his thinking.

Charles dated around a lot, as noted, before he married Diana, including her own sister as well as other women in the social circle that would naturally exist around the Prince and Princess of Wales. So exes were always going to be around, and I don't think he realized that Diana would have an issue with that. But of course she did mind Camilla at least, as well as his other previous longtime relationship, Kanga Tryon (another older married woman) - she crossed both their names off the list for the wedding breakfast. Certainly Camilla didn't help anything in making it clear she intended to continue her affair with Charles and expected that Diana would go along meekly. It seems like, from the luncheon, she thought it somewhat a "fair trade" in that she would support Diana for the position of wife/future queen and give her tips on dealing with Charles. There was an element of rubbing it in, sure, and asserting her own rank as first in Charles's heart, but Camilla also always knew Charles would have to marry eventually and she thought Diana was the perfect mark, meek and mild. She wasn't actually trying to scare Diana off from marrying Charles. I wonder if her miscalculation was thinking Diana was marrying Charles for position rather than for love. If she'd been aware of the strength of Diana's feelings for Charles, she might have realized Diana would not choose to be meek or "civilized" about Camilla continuing as Charles's mistress.

[methodwriter85]

Camila clearly thought that she and Diana would have an "understanding" where she and Charles would continue seeing each other on the side and Diana would dutifully accept this like a good little wife. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by methodwriter85

[Roseanna]

11 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Certainly Camilla didn't help anything in making it clear she intended to continue her affair with Charles and expected that Diana would go along meekly. It seems like, from the luncheon, she thought it somewhat a "fair trade" in that she would support Diana for the position of wife/future queen and give her tips on dealing with Charles. There was an element of rubbing it in, sure, and asserting her own rank as first in Charles's heart, but Camilla also always knew Charles would have to marry eventually and she thought Diana was the perfect mark, meek and mild. She wasn't actually trying to scare Diana off from marrying Charles. I wonder if her miscalculation was thinking Diana was marrying Charles for position rather than for love. If she'd been aware of the strength of Diana's feelings for Charles, she might have realized Diana would not choose to be meek or "civilized" about Camilla continuing as Charles's mistress.

As far I know, the only thing that was true irl the luncheon scene was that Camilla asked casually Diana if she hunted. Diana not even suspected that Camilla had an affair with Charles. 

It was only from Charles parting gift to Camilla before the wedding Diana become to learn about the couple's pet name to each other and interpreted that to mean the love between them. The same happened during the wedding journey when Charles used the cuffs with "Cs" that he had got from Camilla. 

I don't think we can't know what intentions, if any, Camilla had. But if she had, she hardly was so stupid to "mark my man" to Diana before the wedding - on the contrary, it would have been elementally important that Diana would be ignorant until the heir and spare were born.  

[Clanstarling]

On 11/16/2020 at 4:42 AM, cardigirl said:

Well, yes, with Edward and Wallis, what happened with that relationship may be why the Crown, or the family, felt they had the right or need to strongly guide Charles' choice of marriage partner. How much of what is shown in the show of the family's "push" for him to settle on Diana, remains open for debate, but he was probably under pressure to marry and start a family, and they felt that Camilla would not be good as the future Queen of England.  

I also think that the fact that Phillip really approved of Diana had some influence. Charles hadn't garnered much approval from Phillip in the past, so this must have been an extra push for him.
 

On 11/16/2020 at 11:09 PM, swanpride said:

Frankly, I think the show kind of overstates how unhappy Diana was before the marriage. Yeah, I know, that's what she claimed in hindsight but, well, our memories tend to change over time. If she had really been THAT unhappy and the royal THAT unwelcoming, I doubt that she would have went through with it, face on towels or not. Personally I think that back then she was still deep in her fantasy and if there were things she was unhappy about, she most likely assumed that they would get better once they were married and Charles would be around all the time.

When I was a couple of years older than Diana, I married my first husband despite really wanting to call it off - because the idea of what I (and others) would have to go through was just too much for me to handle emotionally and logistically. And I didn't have the Queen, royal family, and the whole of a country to disappoint. So I don't find her going ahead with it strange at all.

[ahpny]

On 11/15/2020 at 2:51 PM, Ellaria Sand said:

I’m going to guess that the “real” Margaret never pointed out to the rest of the family that Charles didn’t love Diana and that the wedding should be called off. Kudos, however, to fictional Margaret even though having this discussion the night before the wedding was just a bit too late.

Fact and fiction will remain forever murky, but at least for this "Margret," this is the first time in the series she's said anything remotely decent and not wholly in self-interest. Even though that decency appears predicated on her own thwarted marriage and subsequent unhappiness, at least her concerns showed sympathy for someone else. That's a first for "Margaret" here.

24 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I also think that the fact that Phillip really approved of Diana had some influence. Charles hadn't garnered much approval from Phillip in the past, so this must have been an extra push for him

We can never know the true motivations for many of their choices, this this is a sound analysis from all that we do know. Much may come back to "daddy issues."

[Roseanna]

Diana said to Camilla that she was a city girl, but in Balmoral she said to Philip that she was a country girl "at heart". 

Although it's understandable that having a crush on Charles Diana presented herself in best possible light to both him and his family, that was still a huge mistake that would have caused the marriage to fail even without Camilla. Better be honest and to lose a quy at once than pretend somebody one isn't and suffer for years.     

[Umbelina]

On 11/16/2020 at 1:47 PM, Roseanna said:

And we see her with her grandmother Lady Fermoy who was Queen Mother's lady-in-waiting who is keen that she succeeds in Balmoral and teaches her etiquette (irl the teachet was some other lady-in-waiting).

I was in my early teens before I realized that my childhood interpretation of the title "Lady in Waiting" was wrong.

From childhood I thought that the "ladies in waiting" were there to sleep with the King whenever he wanted, and/or that they would be his new Queen if the old one died, or was, you know, beheaded.

I probably first heard the term when watching some Henry the 8th movie.  😉

ETA to clarify a bit.  They all waited around in case the King was horny, or needed a different wife.

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Umbelina

[MaggieG]

Even though Margaret was the only one who brought up that the marriage was a bad idea, I still can't stand her. I know she's a spoiled princess, but does she really have to be so rude all the time? I still love HBC.

I felt so bad for Diana wandering around the palace with no one to talk to. Was she really left alone all that time? Did she not maybe have lunch or tea with the Queen at some point?

[Wordsworth]

This was a train wreck.  It was so horrible and, yet one couldn't look away.

* I really enjoyed Margaret's pointing out how interfering in the love lives of their relatives has cost the family a lot.  I rather wish Elizabeth had urged Charles to make sure he was making the right decision rather than trying to bolster him by reminding him of how her rigid and frigid grandmother became more British than the British in order to make her marriage work.  By all accounts, she and George had a good relationship, even if they were lousy parents.  No doubt, Margaret wished she'd been given more leeway in her choices than she had been.

* And I've never read anything to indicate that Bertie cheated on Elizabeth, the Queen Mother.  I would be surprised if it were true, so I'm going with the theory that the Queen Mum was making a general comment about how the upper crust was known to hop bedrooms with the full knowledge of the spouses. 

* I didn't really think of Philip's attempt to balance Margaret's concern as "mansplaining".  Speaking from the perspective of a man isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially when the subject is about a man.    I think the problem is that he was speaking as an older man with a decades-long marriage who had learned the value of having a spouse by one's side and appreciating the beauty and worth of that person even as she ages.  He believed that Charles would eventually recognize how valuable Diana is to him and the monarchy and grow to love her as they spent more time together.  Charles isn't at that place yet and would be unlikely to take anything his father has to say with any seriousness.  

* Yep, we saw the mouse run across the floor.  It was the only thing we noticed about that scene.

* That luncheon was cringeworthy, wasn't it?  I don't know enough about how much the real Diana knew about Charles' relationship with Camilla prior to her wedding.  I believe I read something about how she found out on their honeymoon that he was still in love with Camilla, but I could be wrong.  Certainly, meeting an old flame would be awkward under most circumstances.  As portrayed here, Diana didn't seem all that enthused about it.  At the luncheon, Camilla is self-assured enough to order what she wants while Diana is intimidated and allows herself to not only order what Camilla is having, but also to gorge on it until she has to purge.  Clearly, Camilla knows far more about Charles than Diana does and it's pretty apparent to everyone that the betrothed couple have little in common.

* The perils of being a private secretary (is Charles' secretary a descendant of Michael Adeane's, btw?  My closed captioning referred to him as "Adeane", but it definitely wasn't Michael) is that you have to keep your boss's secrets.  The secretary obviously knows about Camilla.  It was very sloppy of him to leave around drawings of the bracelet around, even though he couldn't possibly have known Diana would be aware of the Fred and Gladys pseudonyms.    Oh, how Tommy Lascelles would have handled that.

* They really seem to have set up Diana to have no support system here.  A sister who uses her for low-paid cleaning, a grandmother who is more concerned about her fitting in than in being herself...we never see her father or brother or any other relatives.  She makes a call to her girlfriends from the palace, but that's it.    She can't even get a minute alone with her future mother-in-law in the same building.  I think that if I were Martin Charteris and the daughter-in-law-to-be is saying she can't go through with the wedding, I'd make sure the Queen knew about it at least.

* Did Princes Andrew and Edward do nothing during this time? Were they always at school?  They seem to be nonentities here.  Princess Anne is given some attention, but only as the commentator.  Her marriage to Mark Phillips was not addressed at all last season and is barely addressed here.  I'm surprised they cast anyone to play him, especially as her children seem to be invisible.

 

 

 

 

 

[dubbel zout]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

When I was a couple of years older than Diana, I married my first husband despite really wanting to call it off - because the idea of what I (and others) would have to go through was just too much for me to handle emotionally and logistically. And I didn't have the Queen, royal family, and the whole of a country to disappoint. So I don't find her going ahead with it strange at all.

It takes a lot of guts to call of a wedding once the invitations have gone out. I have a lot of admiration for people who know it shouldn't happen and make that tough call. Nothing irks me more than buying a gift for people who divorce six months later. I guess I should wait a few months after the wedding to see if they make it before getting the couple a gift! Traditional etiquette says you have up to a year.

12 minutes ago, MaggieG said:

I felt so bad for Diana wandering around the palace with no one to talk to. Was she really left alone all that time? Did she not maybe have lunch or tea with the Queen at some point?

I can see the queen being too busy to see Diana much, but I'd think Diana's time would be filled with all the princess stuff she needs to learn. Not just the protocol/etiquette part of it, but safety lessons (defensive driving, personal security, etc.), how her household will work, figuring out what sort of office staff she'll need, etc. Not to mention the wedding details! I know the palace is doing a lot of it, but I'm sure she had some input that took more than five minutes to say yes or no to. But all of that is boring to show, I guess. And certainly not as dramatic as showing the poor lonely girl rollerskating around the palace listening to Duran Duran. That happened, but I think she probably had a decent amount of work to do every day.

[benteen]

Really good episode although it was a bizarre decision not to show anything from the wedding itself.

[AZChristian]

6 minutes ago, Wordsworth said:

The perils of being a private secretary (is Charles' secretary a descendant of Michael Adeane's, btw?  My closed captioning referred to him as "Adeane", but it definitely wasn't Michael).

Edward, who was also a barrister, was Michael's son.

[BitterApple]

Why was Diana working as her sister's cleaning lady? Wasn't her family wealthy? 

 

[Ohiopirate02]

11 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

Why was Diana working as her sister's cleaning lady? Wasn't her family wealthy? 

 

Her father was wealthy and theoretically Diana could have lived with him and his wife Raine in Althorp, but that was never going to happen.  Diana famously hated her stepmother.  She was living a rather aimless existence in London, living in her mother's apartment with friends.  She was working part-time because she needed spending money, money not attached to her father and any expectations, and because she needed something to do.  She was having fun biding her time before she became an adult and settled down with a husband.  

[Roseanna]

1 minute ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

 living in her mother's apartment with friends

I think she bought the flat with her heritage money.

[Ohiopirate02]

1 minute ago, Roseanna said:

I think she bought the flat with her heritage money.

It could be.  I took that from Professor Wik I. Pedia.  

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, Wordsworth said:

Did Princes Andrew and Edward do nothing during this time? Were they always at school?  They seem to be nonentities here.  Princess Anne is given some attention, but only as the commentator.  Her marriage to Mark Phillips was not addressed at all last season and is barely addressed here.  I'm surprised they cast anyone to play him, especially as her children seem to be invisible.

I keep going back to the title of the show.  The Crown.  Anne and her family are irrelevant to The Crown, other than filler.  They will never hold it, they are the useless "spares."  I was glad to see what we did of Anne, and I think they used her well.  They may get to do a few things to inform the character of the Queen, and of course the future King, but other than that?  Nada.  Considering each season seems to cover around a decade, it's obvious they can't go into minute details about the minor characters. 

Spoiler

The writers flat out have Charles say that to his brothers in some episode, kind of meta there.

2 hours ago, benteen said:

Really good episode although it was a bizarre decision not to show anything from the wedding itself.

I was very glad they didn't.  Anyone can see all of that anytime.  I think it was very clever to only show the back of the dress too.  To show the front would have taken many many hours of embroidery and beading.

2 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Why was Diana working as her sister's cleaning lady? Wasn't her family wealthy? 

 

Kind of a Downton Abbey family to short hand it, or at least from this American's view.  All the money will go to the male heir.  It did seem that Diana owned the flat and rented to roommates, and flats in London are not cheap, so maybe she got enough from her dad for that.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Umbelina