S04.E04: Favourites

[tennisgurl]

Whenever I hear about The Falkland War, I just end up thinking of that Eddie Izzard comedy bit about world history and the British Empire. "Oh we need the Falkland Islands? For strategic sheep purposes..." 

Edited November 16, 2020 by tennisgurl

[Umbelina]

21 hours ago, Runningwild said:

As soon as the Queen asked who was her favorite, I said Andrew. Not sure why I guessed him, but there it is. Frankly, most of these people are insufferable. Andrew comes off the best here. 

I don't know why I knew Andrew was her favorite, but I've somehow always known that.  ??  Andrew did come off as the most amusing, but not 'best' to me, but probably for the Queen at that moment.  Philip knew Andrew was her favorite, obviously.

20 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Wow - the holidays with the Windsor kids must be a lot of fun! What an entitled, self-involved bunch.

Love watching Olivia Colman. She appears to have settled into the role in S4. (It was a bit of an uneven performance last season but that may have been due largely to the writing.) I love her “graying matron” look and the introspection that she is using to survey those around her, for better or worse.

She scolds Charles for his discourse on “straight gardens” while his pregnant wife is in bed watching cartoons. Yet, she doesn’t possess the kindness or compassion to go up and visit her either.

The family dynamics are intriguing but incredibly dysfunctional. 

Agreed.  To the part I bolded though?  I think the editor/director/writer realized what a huge mistake they made last season not allowing Colman to show any range of emotion at all.  This season?  They unshackled her.  YAY!

19 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

The show is not shying away from making Camila and Charles look like the horrible cheaters there were. Diana didn't have a period in her time with Charles that wasn't overshadowed by "Gladys".

Charles was easily the worst child and whom the Queen clearly couldn't abide. She worries about Annie, is curious about Edward, interested in Andrew and impatient with Charles. I think Coleman played all reactions brilliantly 

Unfortunately, Margaret Thatchers' dynamic with her son is far too common. 

I do think Charles annoys her the most, but that is possibly because she has to expect more from him, as the King to be.  Either way, I think the show has been all over the map on their relationship.  Who knows though?  Perhaps their relationship has also been this fraught and changeable.  

18 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

That was SUCH a strange episode.  I still don't understand what provoked the Queen into wanting to have a private chat with each child.  And did she REALLY need her secretary to prepare a briefing document on each child's life as prep for the conversation?  Had she fallen that out of touch with her own children? 

The one good thing I can say about this episode is that, since I did not recall Thatcher's son going missing in that rally, I didn't know where that particular plot line was going to go.

I DO recall what happened with the Falklands and -- at the time -- my sense was that the Brits took swift, decisive action -- flexing that "Great Britain" muscle -- and shut that shit DOWN.  But now, based on the behind-the-scenes view we've been offered via this episode, I wonder if I'm recollecting things correctly.

I laughed out loud when she asked for the dossiers on her children.  She hasn't the foggiest notion of who they all are, what they are interested in, or what they do, unless it makes headlines, at least, according to the show.

12 hours ago, Roseanna said:

It just irked me how Thatcher was ready to give so much money to the war, after denying money for the decent living for ordinary people, not to speak of the soldiers who lost their lives.  

Also, I happened to be on holiday in Crete and remember well the headlines of British talbloids that seemed just ridiculous, f.ex. "They lost their lives in order we could live".  

I wish we'd had even more of the unemployment issues, and poverty/strain issue addressed.  That said, I think they are doing a pretty good job of hitting highlights as they rush, seemingly headlong, through the years and decades, hitting on highlights here and there.

(I really don't understand the rush, I think Netflix would finance more of this show, but perhaps not.)

[tennisgurl]

I knew that Philip would say that Andrew was her favorite, you could really tell just in Elizabeth's body language. She was so relaxed and open with him, while she was very closed off with the other three, like she was a boss giving them a performance review at the end of the quarter. You can also see easily that Anne is Philips favorite, no wonder he didnt even need to think about it. She is probably the kid who has the most qualities that he admires (athletic, bitingly witty, tough) especially in contrast to Charles, who has none of those. 

Of course, Margarete T's treatment of her daughter is probably even worse, its just horrible seeing her treat her daughter like a servant while she worships her shithead son, even straight up just telling her poor daughter that she thinks of her as "weak" and generally hardly even looks at her. She clearly also spoiled her son rotten, and, rather ironically considering Margaret's disdain of the entitled elites and her pride in her self made roots, Mark is just as entitled as any of those silver spoon blue bloods that she hates, trying to act like hot shit for getting lost in a desert, refusing to take any responsibility, laughing about how his driver was hospitalized (women! Am I right mom?) and getting pissy at his father for daring to suggest that he thank the people who had to bail him out of trouble. Plus, he wore that sweater tied around his shoulders that just makes him look like every snooty rich kid bad guy in every 80s teen movie. 

All of Philip and Elizabeth's kids are clearly messed up, and of course the scene with Andrew was very obviously written as the writers practically getting in front of the camera to say "yes, we know about the scandal, we acknowledged it, ok?" before we did anything else with the royal family drama. At least Philip showed some support towards Elizabeth when she was questioning if she was a good mother, and Elizabeth at least acknowledging her fault as a parent and trying to at least check in with her children is at least something, even if it might be too little too late. Of course, the parenting that Philip and Elizabeth had was very different than being a parent in the 80s, especially for royalty. Philips childhood was absolutely miserable and turbulent, and while Elizabeth's parents did try to give their children their time and affection (to the point that it was notable that they spent time with their kids when they didnt "have" to) they were also very busy people, and in general royals were expected to more prepare their children for their duties, not so much to play or do normal stuff we think of as parenting. Not that its an excuse for their failings as parents, but it does give some context. 

I feel like the beginning of the episode is kind of the whole Falkland War in a nutshell. The Argentinians are all cheering their victory at writing some graffiti and hanging around on a dock and singing something patriotic, while the British are just baffled as to what they are trying to accomplish. I cant say I know a lot about the Falkland War, but from what I have gathered, Argentina wanted to score a political victory with their people by tossing some weight around, then the British government, at first just confused by where this came from, realized it was a good way to get some good publicity for an unpopular PM, and the whole thing just became a war that both sides were fighting for the good PR, but it all ended up being pretty pointless. I mean, not to sound like a little kid, but Argentina did start it, but the whole thing seems really strange all around in retrospect. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by tennisgurl

[mledawn]

21 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Love watching Olivia Colman. She appears to have settled into the role in S4. (It was a bit of an uneven performance last season but that may have been due largely to the writing.) I love her “graying matron” look and the introspection that she is using to survey those around her, for better or worse.

I was starting to wonder if a bit of Olivia was creeping in to the Queen, as the Queen is comparably more sympathetic this season.

[Arynm]

I have to say, as a parent to 2 children one of each, that I have my favorites. One is my favorite based on brains and sheer will and the other is my favorite based on likability and common sense. They each have their good and bad points and my favorite changes all the time. Always I love them, but sometimes they make me crazy and I think "the other would handle this better."

[ItCouldBeWorse]

21 hours ago, Roseanna said:

There was some mistake about Elizabeth and Andrew's discussion about dukes of Yorks:

It was also strange how Elizabeth acted as though it had just occurred to her that the Dukedom of York was available and traditional for 2nd sons; after all, she was HRH Princess Elizabeth of York from birth until her uncle abdicated, since her father, as the 2nd son, had been the Duke of York.

On 11/15/2020 at 11:54 PM, WatchrTina said:

That was SUCH a strange episode.  I still don't understand what provoked the Queen into wanting to have a private chat with each child.

Philip told her she had a favorite child.  She decided to meet with them to see if he was right, or to reassure herself that unlike Thatcher, she didn't have one.  She discovered that all of them were in pretty bad shape.

Edited November 17, 2020 by ItCouldBeWorse

[pivot]

After watching this episode, it is impossible for me to decide which of the children are most awful. And I finally realized that Liz is just a humorless Lucile Bluth, a woman who hates all of her children and takes zero responsibility for how they turned out. 
 

Horrible family

[swanpride]

Anne is the least awful. At least her problems are understandable, and mostly out of her hands.

 

Quote

whole thing just became a war that both sides were fighting for the good PR, but it all ended up being pretty pointless.

Yeah, that sums it up pretty well. The Brits get a little bit more of a pass because they didn't start it, but it would be the most ridiculous war they ever fought if the Cod wars weren't a thing. What isn't forgivable is not that they retaliated, it is more that they acted as if they did a second round of WWII.

[3 is enough]

When my soon to be 30 year old son was around 3, something happened that caused him to say to my mother: “What a fucking mess, eh Grandma?”

That pretty much describes the Windsors.

I have 3 adult children.  They all have different personalities so we interact differently, but I have no favourite.  I cannot imagine treating any of my kids the way Margaret Thatcher treated her daughter.  That was despicable.

[swanpride]

But not unusual back in the day, sadly.

[meatball77]

4 hours ago, pivot said:

After watching this episode, it is impossible for me to decide which of the children are most awful. And I finally realized that Liz is just a humorless Lucile Bluth, a woman who hates all of her children and takes zero responsibility for how they turned out. 
 

Horrible family

That's the elite British way.  The kids are raised by nannies and just brought out before dinner until they are eight or nine and then they are sent away to boarding school.  These parents don't even know their kids, they're a constant in their lives but only for holidays.  Boarding school at such a young age is terrible for the parent-child relationship.  Charles and Diana specifically chose to send their kids to school closer to home but still sent them away full time at eight.

Liz cared more for her job than she did her families happiness.  Charles being pushed to marry Diana so quickly is a sign of that.

[mommalib]

I feel bad for Charles, both of his parents were always horrible to him. No affection at all from his mother and sometimes outright hostility from his father.

[Cheezwiz]

10 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Whenever I hear about The Falkland War, I just end up thinking of that Eddie Izzard comedy bit about world history and the British Empire. "Oh we need the Falkland Islands? For strategic sheep purposes..." 

The entire Falklands conflict was an utter farce. Had there not been actual casualties (which is even sadder considering how trifling and pointless it was), it would have been hilarious - something straight out of a Monty Python sketch. I really believe it was used as a diversionary tactic to drum up patriotism while Britain was in a terrible economic slump. This ploy almost always seems to work when it's trotted out, and it did in this  case - the Brits went nuts celebrating their glorious victory over some distant islands mostly populated by sheep.

I found this episode interesting, and definitely dropped lots of anvils about future events to come. Olivia Colman is really bringing it this season - I loved how perplexed she was by each of her children. The fact she had to ask a staffer for briefs on each child made me sort of laugh. I had no idea about Thatcher's family life - I vaguely knew she had kids, but didn't realize they were fraternal twins and that she favoured her son so much. It was sad to watch - what a toxic environment for the daughter. I've often wished for siblings, but this whole episode made me kind of glad that I'm an only child.

I'm seconding everyone's lament that they didn't cover a bit more of Anne last season (especially the kidnapping attempt -what a missed opportunity!), and tied it a bit more to this season. The actors they hired to play Edward and Andrew were not nearly as handsome as their real-life counterparts in that era. Andy & Eddie are not much to look at now, but they were extremely attractive looking at that age. I strongly suspect the show totally nailed what spoiled little shits both of them probably were.

[Peace 47]

The A+ funny moment of the season for me was when Thatcher broke down in front of Elizabeth, apologized for being “the first” PM to get emotional in the one-on-one meeting, and Elizabeth is just like (paraphrasing), “Please.  We’ve even got paper tissues instead of hankies over there because it happens so often.”  And Thatcher takes note of the tissues and goes “Oh.”  Lol.  I think they even showed Churchill getting emotional once in S1, so nice continuity if I recall correctly.  A nice moment of levity in an episode that otherwise made me feel kind of icky wallowing in the terrible parenting. 

There’s a lot of talk on this thread about how bad (or not) Liz and Philip were as parents, given the times.  But what’s interesting to me is how awful Elizabeth’s relationship is with her kids and how terrible of a parent she comes across as (in this show), coming, as she did, from a relatively close-knit immediate family, with parents who seemed to genuinely love Margaret and her, knew them as people, and shared time and interests with them (like Bertie sharing an enjoyment of music with Margaret, or giving Liz the camera as a wedding present).  I think the show makes a statement over all seasons that Elizabeth gradually had the emotionalism drained out of her by the institution such that by this time, it doesn’t sound odd to her that she needs a dossier to have a conversation with her kids.

 

[lovinbob]

8 hours ago, swanpride said:

Anne is the least awful. At least her problems are understandable, and mostly out of her hands.

Help me understand this. I agree her problems are understandable, but whose fault is it that she fell out of love with her husband? She said her affair was the only thing that made her happy—that sounded like a big selfish whine. It's understandable but it's not her mother's fault, nor is it the Crown's fault. Is there an aspect of this match that I'm not getting right? ETA: Thank you! I didn't know about Mark Phillips cheating.

5 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

There’s a lot of talk on this thread about how bad (or not) Liz and Philip were as parents, given the times.  But what’s interesting to me is how awful Elizabeth’s relationship is with her kids and how terrible of a parent she comes across as (in this show), coming, as she did, from a relatively close-knit immediate family, with parents who seemed to genuinely love Margaret and her, knew them as people, and shared time and interests with them (like Bertie sharing an enjoyment of music with Margaret, or giving Liz the camera as a wedding present).  I think the show makes a statement over all seasons that Elizabeth gradually had the emotionalism drained out of her by the institution such that by this time, it doesn’t sound odd to her that she needs a dossier to have a conversation with her kids.

I have been wondering about this too. From what we saw Bertie managed to be a doting dad despite his responsibilities. But maybe it's significant that he didn't always know that he would be king, whereas she was preparing to be queen almost all her life. Also the tension between needing to be a sovereign (typically male role) and a mother--these requiring different strengths. It's interesting.

I am feeling a little bored of the constant refrain of how emotionally vacant they all are, esp. when we know that problem has continued to plague the Royal Family and has led to so much unhappiness--there doesn't seem to be any hope for a happy ending, or even for any even slight growth in these characters. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by lovinbob

[AZChristian]

50 minutes ago, lovinbob said:

I am feeling a little bored of the constant refrain of how emotionally vacant they all are, esp. when we know that problem has continued to plague the Royal Family and has led to so much unhappiness--there doesn't seem to be any hope for a happy ending, or even for any even slight growth in these characters. 

Free the Royal Family!!!  Abolish the monarchy!!!

Problem solved.  This generation (and probably a couple below them) have enough money to live on for years to come.  Turn Buckingham Palace and some of the other state-owned castles into museums.  That way, if people are charged to go into them, that is money they are CHOOSING to spend, and it's going for a purpose.  At this point in history - other than tradition - do they really NEED all of these people on the public dole?  

Edited November 17, 2020 by AZChristian
's

[Ohiopirate02]

45 minutes ago, lovinbob said:

I have been wondering about this too. From what we saw Bertie managed to be a doting dad despite his responsibilities. But maybe it's significant that he didn't always know that he would be king, whereas she was preparing to be queen almost all her life. Also the tension between needing to be a sovereign (typically male role) and a mother--these requiring different strengths. It's interesting.

I am feeling a little bored of the constant refrain of how emotionally vacant they all are, esp. when we know that problem has continued to plague the Royal Family and has led to so much unhappiness--there doesn't seem to be any hope for a happy ending, or even for any even slight growth in these characters. 

Bertie and Elizabeth were a love match and were well-suited to each other.  Bertie also did know he would be king eventually.  Edward VIII showed no signs of marrying to produce heirs well before he met Wallis.  Elizabeth and Margaret did have an idyllic childhood as royals because Granddad lived until 1936.  They had time that Charles and Anne did not. Even then, Charles and Anne did have a few years of being the children of a naval officer and his wife.  

The show also does want to make the royals more miserable than reality.  Yes, they were and still are a dysfunctional family, but dysfunctional families still do have good times.  The show glosses over the good times.  We did get a peek in episode 2 when the family was on vacation.  The Windsor-Montbattens love Balmoral because that is where they can let their hair down.  Of course, they are still royals and their idea of casual fun is light years away from our idea of casual fun.

[BradandJanet]

I hope this episode begins and continues the portrayal of Margaret Thatcher as a middle-aged woman, not someone two steps from a geriatric care facility. A hunched over, doddering Thatcher was a strange acting and directing choice. 

This season lacks the subtleties the previous seasons had. (Anyway, I think they had.) Dramatic license is fine, but the characters are contemporary so things need to stay somewhat realistic. This over-the-top stuff is making me a bit cranky, although I have no intentions to stop watching. 

[3 is enough]

I get the impression that Gillian Anderson has to put so much effort in getting the voice correct that she has to speak slowly and deliberately.  But Thatcher was only 56 at the time of the Falklands war, and as I recall she spoke with more authority than seems to be shown here.

My memories of Margaret Thatcher are a bit hazy- when she was in power there was no internet and cable news was in its infancy- we basically got the nightly news and special bulletins.  We weren't as obsessed with the minutiae of the news as we are today.  I do remember her as being more formidable than she is portrayed on The Crown, however.

 

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by 3 is enough

[methodwriter85]

Aww, Freddie Fox. I know him from his gender-bending part as Boy George's BFF Marilyn in a tv movie called Worried About the Boy. I thought he rocked his part as a spoiled rotten prat. That whole dinner scene with the Thatchers was a brilliant and a great "show, don't tell" moment. You can just feel Carol finding Mark repulsive and disgusted by Margaret doddering over him. Also, kudos to the person that picked up on the fact that Andrew's favorite is poached salmon and that's why the Queen always has it served for lunch.

Edited November 17, 2020 by methodwriter85

[swanpride]

Thatcher spoke very deliberately...that was partly because her voice was originally pretty shrill. She actually trained herself to speak with a deeper voice.

[tennisgurl]

7 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

The A+ funny moment of the season for me was when Thatcher broke down in front of Elizabeth, apologized for being “the first” PM to get emotional in the one-on-one meeting, and Elizabeth is just like (paraphrasing), “Please.  We’ve even got paper tissues instead of hankies over there because it happens so often.”

I love that she has tissues right there for when the PM inevitably bursts into tears, Elizabeth does end up playing therapist to all of the Prime Minsters doesn't she? Its like a PM right of passage, everyone ends up getting emotional in front of the queen. Even when they don't get along or she thinks they screwed up, she is always there for a tough love pep talk and a stiff drink. She even gave Eden a lot of sympathy after the whole Egypt debacle in season two despite how annoyed she was with him. 

Its funny how she can be so supportive and sympathetic to the various PMs, but struggles so much with showing any kind of support towards her own children. I guess its because she is more used to talking about affairs of state and the country than real emotional family issues and being a mother. 

[PRgal]

Did Edward really have braces?  Not that it would be unusual...many teens do.  Or is it just a way to show how "normal" the Royals can be?

[laurakaye]

11 hours ago, mommalib said:

I feel bad for Charles, both of his parents were always horrible to him. No affection at all from his mother and sometimes outright hostility from his father.

And I find this so interesting because this is the heir to the throne.  Did Elizabeth and Philip think that treating Charles like something gross on the bottom of their shoes would toughen their woe-is-me son into the future King of England?  It's so fascinating.

Olivia Colman NAILED the scene where she was telling Philip that she could never bathe Charles when he was a baby because she didn't know how to hold him.  That was just heartbreaking and her tears were right on the verge of falling, but nonetheless they did not.  That's some serious skill.

[freeser]

1 hour ago, laurakaye said:

Olivia Colman NAILED the scene where she was telling Philip that she could never bathe Charles when he was a baby because she didn't know how to hold him.  That was just heartbreaking and her tears were right on the verge of falling, but nonetheless they did not.  

It affected me also when she said she did not know how to hold him.  It was sad.  What was even more interesting to me was when I realized that when Charles was a baby Elizabeth was not even the Queen yet.  She was still a Princess but I guess even then she was not a hands on mother.  I think I felt that before she had all the duties of being a Queen, she might have had time to be a more involved mother.  I guess not....

[Roseanna]

12 minutes ago, freeser said:

It affected me also when she said she did not know how to hold him.  It was sad.  What was even more interesting to me was when I realized that when Charles was a baby Elizabeth was not even the Queen yet.  She was still a Princess but I guess even then she was not a hands on mother.  I think I felt that before she had all the duties of being a Queen, she might have had time to be a more involved mother.  I guess not....

If mothers could afford, they let nannies do all menial work, such as bathing - and not only in Britain (cf. Rose Kennedy).

As a Princess Elizabeth was more a wife than a mother. She left Charles and Anne at home in order to be with Philip in Malta (unlike in the show).

Edited November 17, 2020 by Roseanna
correcting spelling

[BradandJanet]

Some of Charles's upbringing was upper-class character building--cold showers and skimpy meals at elite private boarding schools, bullying and cliques, nannies, stiff upper lip. I suspect Phillip thought he was toughening up shy, sensitive Charles, but Charles was just miserable. Diana broke ranks by not going along with this type of childrearing.  

 

[Umbelina]

Reading the comments and thinking a bit more about the episode today.

Not just in this episode, but certainly last season as well, the show is portraying the Queen with no feelings, to the point where she's been concerned enough to try to make herself cry, or to care one bit about her children.  Her only real interests/loves have been dogs, horses, Philip, and on occasion, Margaret.  She "can't cry" and she's so completely detached from her family, specifically her children, now all adults, that she must have dossiers delivered to her before her little meetings to decide a favourite. 

Honestly, it's beginning to feel like she has deep psychological problems here.  Meanwhile, the kids are now grown up, mostly spoiled brats, with few redeeming qualities, and each significantly emotionally stunted themselves. 

If this is even close to an honest portrayal of the royal family?  Why the hell is it still around?  Or, another question, are these showrunners trying to rouse people to dump this monarchy?  This episode would certainly make it seem so.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Umbelina

[swanpride]

Considering how often Elizabeth's dedication to the country is mentioned, I don't think so. But the fact is the moment you look deeper into those people, they are a bunch of rich a-holes whose "worth" in supporting charity might not make up for what they actually cost the country.

[AimingforYoko]

Of course Olivia Colman shines in an episode titled, "Favourites".

I'm with Philip, Anne's my favorite. Her catty bitching about Diana was hilarious.

[Umbelina]

11 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

Of course Olivia Colman shines in an episode titled, "Favourites".

I'm with Philip, Anne's my favorite. Her catty bitching about Diana was hilarious.

I love her honestly, but I was frankly quite disappointed in her jealousy.  She never seemed petty before.

[mommalib]

8 hours ago, laurakaye said:

And I find this so interesting because this is the heir to the throne.  Did Elizabeth and Philip think that treating Charles like something gross on the bottom of their shoes would toughen their woe-is-me son into the future King of England?  It's so fascinating.

Olivia Colman NAILED the scene where she was telling Philip that she could never bathe Charles when he was a baby because she didn't know how to hold him.  That was just heartbreaking and her tears were right on the verge of falling, but nonetheless they did not.  That's some serious skill.

I guess that was their version of tough love, but that was not what a kid like Charles needed.

[WatchrTina]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I love her honestly, but I was frankly quite disappointed in her jealousy.  She never seemed petty before.

I thought Anne had every right to be hurt by the way the public reacted to Diana as their shiny new princess.  From what I have read, Princess Anne is still one of the most hard-working of the royals. She is royal patron of numerous organizations and she shows up for a huge number of public events each year.  But back then, when she was a newly-wed with a young child and a troubled marriage, it must have hurt, after all those years of being THE princess (a princess "of the blood", "The Princess Royal") to find herself compared unfavorably with lovely, stylish, princess-come-lately Diana -- especially since Anne knew about what Diana got up to when she was out of the public eye.

[bijoux]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I love her honestly, but I was frankly quite disappointed in her jealousy.  She never seemed petty before.

Maybe it's because I find her hilarious, but I attributed it to her life being a shitshow at the moment, or at least her seeing her that way. So some of her frustrations came out in this form.

[Umbelina]

16 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I thought Anne had every right to be hurt by the way the public reacted to Diana as their shiny new princess.  From what I have read, Princess Anne is still one of the most hard-working of the royals. She is royal patron of numerous organizations and she shows up for a huge number of public events each year.  But back then, when she was a newly-wed with a young child and a troubled marriage, it must have hurt, after all those years of being THE princess (a princess "of the blood", "The Princess Royal") to find herself compared unfavorably with lovely, stylish, princess-come-lately Diana -- especially since Anne knew about what Diana got up to when she was out of the public eye.

Anne was "getting up to" the exact same things, sex outside of marriage because her husband, like Diana's, was cheating on her.

As far as "recognition?"  Wasn't pure Anne doing it for the money she gets every single year from the taxpayers?  Earning her keep?

It's was never Diana's fault that the public adored her, or that she was prettier than Anne.  Why hate her?  Why not join her, show her the ropes?

14 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Maybe it's because I find her hilarious, but I attributed it to her life being a shitshow at the moment, or at least her seeing her that way. So some of her frustrations came out in this form.

Jealousy seems to be a Windsor trait though, but yes, she also knew Diana's life was a shit show.  Compassion or understanding would have been nice.

[swanpride]

I don't think that Anna actually had that much to do with Diana in real life. Back then she lived elsewhere and had her own children to take care of.

[Umbelina]

14 minutes ago, swanpride said:

I don't think that Anna actually had that much to do with Diana in real life. Back then she lived elsewhere and had her own children to take care of.

So she didn't live near Charles and Diana's home, Highgrove?  He said she did.

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

15 hours ago, laurakaye said:

And I find this so interesting because this is the heir to the throne.  Did Elizabeth and Philip think that treating Charles like something gross on the bottom of their shoes would toughen their woe-is-me son into the future King of England?  It's so fascinating.

 

13 hours ago, BradandJanet said:

I suspect Phillip thought he was toughening up shy, sensitive Charles, but Charles was just miserable.

Phillip and Elizabeth always assumed Charles would be a Type A macho man just like his father, and didn't know how to treat a child who was the polar opposite.

This episode made me glad I only had one child: no need to worry about favorites. And since my wife and I were both only children, we found the whole "favorite sibling" dynamic fascinating.

[swanpride]

Most parents would never admit that they have a favourite, even if they have one. And a lot of children have a favourite parent, even if they would never admit it. This dynamic can be quite toxic, but it doesn't have to be.

[Roseanna]

6 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I thought Anne had every right to be hurt by the way the public reacted to Diana as their shiny new princess.  From what I have read, Princess Anne is still one of the most hard-working of the royals. She is royal patron of numerous organizations and she shows up for a huge number of public events each year.  But back then, when she was a newly-wed with a young child and a troubled marriage, it must have hurt, after all those years of being THE princess (a princess "of the blood", "The Princess Royal") to find herself compared unfavorably with lovely, stylish, princess-come-lately Diana -- especially since Anne knew about what Diana got up to when she was out of the public eye.

 

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Anne was "getting up to" the exact same things, sex outside of marriage because her husband, like Diana's, was cheating on her.

As far as "recognition?"  Wasn't pure Anne doing it for the money she gets every single year from the taxpayers?  Earning her keep?

It's was never Diana's fault that the public adored her, or that she was prettier than Anne.  Why hate her?  Why not join her, show her the ropes?

I agree with Watchrina. Even an ordinary worker longs for recognition, too, not just salary. Nobody likes to be treated wrongly by the boss and it's simply too much to demand to join the favorite.     

Spoiler

Diana wasn't yet cheating at that time, so her situation wasn't the same as Anne's

Diana had too faces: the public adored her but in private she suffered of bulimia, anorexia, depression etc.  There weren't enough information about the former two, so Anne and others royals probably thought (wrongly) that she should simply decide to put herself together.   

Anne was unhappy and had her own problems in her marriage and, most of all, she had the same tough character as Philip and had nothing in common with Diana. 

Let's remember that Diana was no angel: Charles quite naturally wanted his only sister to become the godmother first to William and then to Harry, but Diana vetoed in both cases. That's not the to please one's spouse and create/keep good relations with in-laws. 

I think Anne did the right decision to live her own life which meant also keeping distance from Diana, although she should have kept her mouth shut in public (which we haven't seen in the show).       

[benteen]

Tobias was absolutely great in the favorites seen and walking away from Elizabeth without answering her question.  Just brilliant!

What does Carol Thatcher do on this show?  According to her wikipedia, she was an accomplished reporter in her own right.

Is that it for the Falklands War?  That was something I was really looking forward to them portraying this season.  Instead of that, we get Mark Thatcher lost in the desert.  

Edited November 20, 2020 by benteen

[Roseanna]

Anne was presented as a realist who accepted the facts and didn't blame anybody (except the press of course). Her told her mother honestly that her marriage had failed, but she said no bad word about her husband (nor blame her parents for her own problems!). 

Spoiler

Her affair with her bodyguard was, I suppose, meant to anticipate Diana's similar affairs: men of that kind was easiest to get to know and have meetings.  

 Evidently Anne and Mark Philip simply became indifferent towards each other.

[ahpny]

On 11/15/2020 at 11:54 PM, WatchrTina said:

That was SUCH a strange episode.  I still don't understand what provoked the Queen into wanting to have a private chat with each child.

I thought this episode was pretty good, and welcome respite to the apparent unifying theme so far that the royals are just the worst. While still far from admirable, this episode, showed the Queen cared, and in her own semi-incompetent way, tried to address things long broken. Philip, not so much. The framing device of Thatcher's own family drama worked well, and showed that the royals hardly had a monopoly on asshole children. What seemed to provoke the Queen to chat with her own children was Thatcher's emotional collapse regarding her own missing son. As she stated later in the episode, the Queen regarded all of her own children as similarly "lost" in a sense. Hardworking, successful people in all walks of life frequently do not raise hardworking, successful children.

Edited November 19, 2020 by ahpny

[wislander]

Hi, I recognized an logical error in the 4. episode of season 4. What is your opinion? There is something wrong with the course of time, I think...🙂

Margaret Thatcher tells the Queen that her son Mark has gone missing during the Dakar Rally. Mark’s team hadn’t been heard from in two days. Apparently in the evening the Queen and Prince Philip sit together and watch the news. You can hear the TV-Commentator: "Mark Thatcher is missing for five days". And then The Queen tells Philip "The prime minister said something interesting today."  

 

Script:

The last sighting
was at a checkpoint

in a village in Algeria two days ago.
-------------------------
TV: "Since then, nothing.

It's been five days

since Mark Thatcher was last sighted
with his teammates.

Helicopters have begun to scour
the desert terrain

in which they went missing,

but with such a large…"

Queen: The prime minister said
something interesting today about her son.

[Avaleigh]

23 hours ago, benteen said:

Is that it for the Falklands War?  That was something I was really looking forward to them portraying this season.  Instead of that, we get Mark Thatcher lost in the desert.  

I love this show so much but every season I feel like there are missed opportunities like this. 

I think it was a strange choice to not have made a little more of a story about Andrew and the Falklands War. What made the showrunners think this wouldn't be interesting?

[Normades]

On 11/16/2020 at 6:22 PM, Umbelina said:

I do think Charles annoys her the most, but that is possibly because she has to expect more from him, as the King to be.  Either way, I think the show has been all over the map on their relationship.  Who knows though?  Perhaps their relationship has also been this fraught and changeable.  

I also wonder if the fact that Charles is literally waiting to take over for her causes issues in their relationship.  It can't be healthy to think "this kid is waiting for me to die so that he can be king."

[dubbel zout]

16 minutes ago, Normades said:

I also wonder if the fact that Charles is literally waiting to take over for her causes issues in their relationship.  It can't be healthy to think "this kid is waiting for me to die so that he can be king."

And Charles is thinking, "I have to wait for her to die so that I can be king." It's an extremely weird dynamic.

[Blakeston]

As much as I dislike Margaret Thatcher, I really didn't like the way that this episode suggested that she initially became militant about the Falklands because she was emotional about her son, and couldn't separate the issues in her mind.

"Our people, far from home, their lives are in danger! OUR OWN!"

That's some cheesy writing, and it plays into some gross stereotypes about women and their emotions.

[Clanstarling]

On 11/15/2020 at 2:32 PM, Brn2bwild said:

I don't remember it being this poor quality -- I think some of it could be due to the age of the footage?

I think we've just gradually become accustomed to better quality footage on our tv's.  Of course, it could also depend on how the footage was shot. For example, I Love Lucy still looks good today because in a revolutionary move, Desilu Studios filmed it with (I think) regular movie cameras. I don't know what kinds of cameras news agencies used, but I doubt they were as good as film cameras.

[SoWindsor]

On 11/16/2020 at 2:36 PM, JudyObscure said:

Equally there's no excuse for Diana doing that childish not speaking thing. How spoiled and lazy can you be to simply lose interest in decorating your nice new mansion with your unlimited funds, and, honestly, when your mother-in-law comes to visit for the first time, get out of bed, throw on a maternity dress, and go down for lunch, whether you're feeling fabulous  or not. 

Pretty sure Diana dealt with depression. That on top of a loveless marriage would be extremely tough.

On 11/17/2020 at 2:36 PM, laurakaye said:

Olivia Colman NAILED the scene where she was telling Philip that she could never bathe Charles when he was a baby because she didn't know how to hold him.  That was just heartbreaking and her tears were right on the verge of falling, but nonetheless they did not.  That's some serious skill.

I thought she was talking about Andrew. She said she made a point to be a more hands on mom and wanted to bathe her children but in the end she sat back because she didn’t know what to do.