AwesomO4000

Heh. I'll have to try consciously check that out in my new online word game. I'm pretty sure it'll take it. I'm always surprised by some of the words it accepts - including some downright at least grade B+ cuss words, and some descriptive body part terms - and I think that's sometimes how I win some of my matches, because I actually try those words and get them accepted and so therefor get points for them. Heh. I'll respond, but I won't be able to limit it to two or three. I also might have a different perspective on what I find to be truly great episodes. And weirdly after season 2, you'll see that quite a few of my great episodes come from later seasons. I agree with What Is... and In My Time of Dying. And Abandon All Hope was a great - and emotionally wrenching - episode. Loved Nightshifter. I also tend to like the meta - Dean and Sam's opinion be damned - so Hollywood Babylon, Changing Channels and The French Mistake go on my list. Slash Fiction does also. I just ignore the last scene as being part of that episode, because the rest was so awesome for me (RIP Chet. How I missed your sarcasm.). And now here's where I really go off the beaten path, because I'm going to include some season 11 episodes. Fan Fiction from season 10 might've made the list - and comes close - but gets bumped off by season 11's Baby, the brilliant (in my opinion) Safe House, and Don't Call Me Shurley. I personally loved Into the Mystic and Just My Imagination, too ... which explains why, despite its faults - of which I'm aware are many and varied - season 11 makes my list of top 5 Supernatural seasons. There I said it. (The others would be 1, 2, 5, and either 6 or 7 depending on my mood, but usually 6.) And I'm aware that I left off season 4. I have many reasons for that. I have issues (which in my head is always said in the voice of Clem, Spike's demon buddy from Buffy the Vampire Slayer.)

Cain was not a "benign demon." If Crowley is freaked out by another demon, that generally means he is bad news. Sure Cain had taken a break, but there was no doubt that the mark was evil, dangerous, and came with serious consequences. Dean knew full well that there would be dangerous consequences. He either didn't care or was arrogant enough to think that he could handle it. And if Ruby was a bad influence - who also was pretending to be helpful and actually helping Sam to save people as part of her deception - Crowley surely wasn't a fluffy puppy. I would say that at that point, he was just as much an enemy - one who had recently killed a bunch of innocent people, including Sarah and had been on his way to killing Jody. And as for Sam using powers from Azazel - ones he had no choice in being given - Dean was using powers that he knew full well came from Lucifer... their really mortal enemy. And Dean chose to take those powers that came from Lucifer. So why would that merit world-ending or at the very least some very bad consequences? Because they were powers from Lucifer. That's kind of Lucifer's raison d'etre. So I truly don't see why Sam is so horrible for using powers from a demon, but Dean is excused for willingly taking powers that he knew came from Lucifer himself. You might not see those two things as similar, but I do. And interestingly enough, blood was involved with Dean's powers, too. Dean didn't drink blood, but the First Blade required that blood be shed on its behalf. Things weren't the same, but there were some interesting parallels. I also disagree that Sam's main motivation was to prove himself as big savior of the world. And Dean may not have had hang ups in that regard, but under the mark's influence, he also declared himself the only one who could be the savior of the situation and told Sam he had to fall in line or leave. So I think there was a sense of superiority there. And regular Dean didn't say Sam held him back, but demon Dean did. Again, it wasn't the same, but there were parallels. I also don't interpret your "canon claims" exactly the same way you do. At least Sam got over this for the most part. I was pretty much annoyed by Dean's endless self-esteem issues. Even when angels tell him he's awesome, and demons fear him, he continues to think he's crap. He survives a year in purgatory being an awesome badass... and still has no self-esteem and doesn't stand up to his brother. I may have disliked Sam in season 8, but Dean's inability to stand up for himself or think he deserved anything wasn't much better. I don't think it's the same myself. It's not like Gamble didn't give Dean any plot arcs or chances to shine. And Dean was still a likable character and got to help save the world. Carver made me almost hate Sam... and Sam was my favorite. And he made no attempt to make up for trashing Sam's character either. He just made it worse. I'd call that a little more than a "taste." It's one thing to sideline a character and another to trash him by making him act ridiculously with no explanation. For me those things aren't equivalent. I loved season 11 for example even though Sam's part in the overall arc was minimal, because Sam acted like Sam. Of course season 12 ruined that but hey, I got season 11 anyway. And in my opinion, Carver didn't do too many favors for Dean's character either (at least not in season 8, anyway). He was too busy building up his own original characters (Amelia, Benny, Gadreel) any chance he got. Again just my opinion there. And this is where I'll bow out as I'm not interested in yet another discussion of this. I don't think anyone could do much with some of the crap storyilines they gave Sam - like the Amelia storyline - and I happen to enjoy Jared's portrayal of Sam most of the time. And Dean often gets the bigger emotional scenes with close ups to highlight his performances, so I don't agree that the writers only write him "pittance." Neither got much of anything good post season 11, so... I think I'll go to lurking for now. Carry on.

Sam can't win in this scenario. Dean had been wanting Sam to praise John as a "good" parent for a long time. He usually complained when Sam criticized him. Even after learning himself that maybe John wasn't that great a father, he still objected or called Sam out if Sam said anything negative about John and told Sam he didn't have a right to say anything good about John after his death because of Sam's previous criticism ("Everybody Loves a Clown"), so Sam pretty much loses no matter what he does here. As for Sam praising Dean for raising and taking care of him, Sam does that many, many times throughout the series, so I don't agree with your interpretation that it's in character for Sam to give others praise that Dean should have had. And except when he's angry at Dean, I don't remember Sam being all that negative in dumping blame on Dean either. I'm not sure what "negative stuff" you are referring to here. Sam generally puts the blame right where it belongs - on John. And often most criticism Sam does have for Dean relates to what he saw as John not treating Dean right, and Dean accepting it. But even that Sam later apologizes for when he understands why Dean did it ("Something Wicked"). Sam outright accuses John on Dean's behalf in "In My Time of Dying," potentially incurring John's wrath. Even in the episode above, not long after the dialogue you site, Sam acknowledges that John isn't exactly the best or reliable father. From Supernatural Wiki: So Sam's observation that things could have been worse, in my opinion, isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of John. It's more of a realization on Sam's part that hey maybe not all "normal" is as good as Sam imagined it was. Sometimes it's just as crappy or even worse. And just because Sam doesn't praise Dean here doesn't mean he didn't appreciate what Dean did for him when they were growing up. There are many other times Sam acknowledges it in the series.

Unpopular opinion coming up - Dean asking in itself that Sam not use his powers was unfair in my opinion. Sam didn't want Dean to give up his soul for him. He wasn't given a choice in that matter, and if Sam had been given the choice after that, he would have changed places with Dean in a moment. He tried several times, starting in season 3. And it wasn't like Sam purposely said "I'm going to use my powers to defy Dean." He wasn't in the best of places at that time and was carrying a ton of guilt knowing that Dean was in hell because of him. Sam made the wrong decisions, but he wasn't the only one who made bad decisions in the scenario. And yes, the argument is going to be that Sam asked the same thing of Dean - sort of - but Sam thought that was what Dean would want more than it being some sort of ultimatum, and Dean was being left in a less tumultuous situation than Sam. Nonetheless, both kind of dick moves, in my opinion. As for the hotel, I'm pretty sure it was Dean telling Sam that he (Sam) was a monster that set Sam off. And Sam asked Dean to come with him and Ruby. Dean refused even though he knew Sam thought that Ruby was necessary for his mission to kill Lilith. There wasn't going to be a resolution to that argument. If Dean had been thinking properly, he would have agreed to go with Sam and Ruby... and then knifed Ruby in the back. And as for the last point, no Dean couldn't necessarily trust Sam due to the hallucinations... but he did anyhow, enough to back him up on hunts, anyway. So for me, if Dean trusted Sam enough for that, he could have told Sam the truth rather than lying to him... which is what Sam was most angry about. I didn't, and as far as I remember I have never tried to compare them. My mentioning Amy had nothing to do with Benny. I'm not that masochistic. There's no way flawed Amy could ever win a comparison against "better brother" Benny. Carver (and Adam Glass) made sure to make Benny as awesome and sympathetic as possible. (Even though I never entirely bought it.) Carver / the writers insisting on bringing up the comparison - even though Amy had already been settled and Sam doesn't usually hold grudges - was yet another jab at Gamble, in my opinion. Of course he is... because when Dean does the same kind of things or makes the same kind of mistakes that Sam does, he generally ends up being justified by the narrative. I don't think anyone is going to be able to convince me that the Mark of Cain storyline, for example, wasn't pretty much the Sam demon blood storyline with Dean except that Dean "does it better" (and it somehow still gets blamed all on Sam, so sayeth Chuck (and the writers)). It's just that when Sam does it and Dean disagrees, it's "wrong" and has disastrous, apocalyptic consequences, but when Dean does it, it's because he had no other choice, and voila... it was the right decision after all, and oops Dean is a demon for a while, but that's okay, because it was his brother trying to stop him from being a demon that was the problem anyway. Interesting that Sam using his powers is him becoming a "monster" and was so awful, but Dean using dark powers and becoming a demon is just fine according to the writers.*** And Dean making the deal for Sam to save his life was "bad" (wink-wink nudge-nudge), but what Sam did was worse while Sam saving Dean was bad... as in causing an apocalypse bad (even while Dean at the same time once again saves Sam recklessly... with no consequences). So basically Sam making reckless, arrogant decisions = bad. Dean doing it = no problem or good. With writing like that, then no, Sam is never going to win that race. But for me, in a way, that is why Sam is (or at least was, before Dabb) a more interesting character. He has flaws and has to grow and overcome those flaws. Dean's flaws are pretty much sympathetic flaws - like he blames himself for everything and he loves his family too much and has self-esteem issues - but Dean never has to change from those flaws, because they are shown as okay. And this is just my opinion - I know a lot of people are going to disagree and mention Dean has flaws... but for me they are surface stuff and not treated as flaws really by the show. Not in terms of consequences - which is the yardstick for me. I'm not a "tell" person. I'm a "show" person. I want to see consequences for actions. *** And I don't care what the writers say after the fact. For me canon is what is onscreen. And consequences for actions are the proof / message. For me, personally, that's what counts in terms of the narrative. What the writers supposedly meant to say or show is of little consequence if they actually show the opposite. I'm all too familiar with that writer tactic from previous shows I watched. To quote Chuck: "Writers (and showrunners) lie." Because it makes interesting press and fan discussion. And what writer is going to come out and say "Oh, yeah I did write your favorite character as being a huge jerk... because it makes for better drama!!!"? I mean there might be one somewhere - and kudos to him/her for having the guts to say so - but I don't think those writers reside in this fandom. And I don't think that I justify Sam's actions by "but Dean did this, too." (Maybe I'm wrong?) But if I see a "Dean always (or almost always) does A while Sam does B" statement and I disagree - and have reasons why I disagree - then yeah, I'm going to point out those reasons. That doesn't mean I think what Sam does is therefore "right" most of the time. But I don't think Dean doing them is right either, no matter that the writers sometimes try to paint it as such. And in that vein: I,m not sure that the MoC was supposed to be a screw up... and in my opinion, it wasn't. Once again Sam was made to be the screw up. Whether intentional or not (I lean towards intentional), the MoC storyline turned out to be a "see dark powers can be useful... as long as Dean has them instead of Sam" narrative. Even Dean's demon on his shoulder was turned into a frenemy and did good things, because apparently Dean can have demon "friends" that are "good-ish"...because he isn't Sam, I guess. Don't ask me. I didn't get the writers' message here and haven't, generally, since season 8 started. I also disagree that Gadreel was a Dean "screw-up" per se, because the writers pretty much ignored the actual crappy things that Dean did (imo) and instead turned it into Sam whining about "I was ready to die!" so that Kevin could tell him to "Get over it!" and then Sam would have to say "I lied" and be turned into a hypocrite. If that was supposed to be a Dean screwed up too turn, then in my opinion, the writers failed spectacularly, because they instead took away much of the sympathy for Sam by turning him into a jerk and making Dean look like the sympathetic party who was just trying to save his ungrateful brother... who by the way actually would do the same thing, so what was Sam whining about***... and don't worry, we'll get Sam for that next season. I was not amused nor felt that things had been evened out by that storyline. I actually thought that Dean got justified for his actions and that Sam got dumped on by the writers even more by that storyline - which I didn't think was possible after what they did to him in season 8. At least that's what it looked like to me by the time they were done. So I guess I don't see things quite the same way as most people do. *** Oh yeah, the fact that Dean lied to him for weeks, thereby letting an entity parade around in his body without his knowledge and screw up his memories, but never mind that... we'll conveniently forget about that part, because look Gadreel turned out to be a "good" guy after all and a "real friend." Yay! (You might be able to tell that by that point in season 9, I was completely pissed off.)

I'm not sure that that is better, because how exactly is Sam supposed to be pissed then, since being bitchy about it is pretty much his go to? ; ) But seriously, putting restrictions on how someone can be pissed is partially demanding that someone just suck it up. Especially - at least in my opinion - since Dean said that he wouldn't push, just work the case together... and then did push and complained when Sam did just work the case with him. The main thing, however, was that once Dean did explain his reasoning and why he lied, Sam accepted that explanation and forgave him. Dean could have saved a lot of heartache if he had told Sam sooner rather than lying to him and keeping it to himself. As I said, generally Sam's beef seems to be Dean making decisions for him without giving him a say in the matter. Sam's generally pretty consistent about that. I never said it was. I wasn't making this comparison, so I'm not sure how season 8 got into this discussion. I think Carver's writing of Sam in season 8 was pretty crappy, and I can't defend anything Sam did there. I personally think that Carver had some kind of bug up his butt or something that Gamble was the show runner ahead of him and pretty much tried to undo everything she had done in terms of character development for Sam. He even pretty much ignored the awesome set up Gamble left for him in favor of some soap opera romance almost no one wanted to see and ignored the stories everyone did want to see. I believe, if I remember correctly, that he even complained about the shitty set up that she left for him... which what? The purgatory story was gold as far as I'm concerned and a perfect set up for Dean to gain some independence and self-perspective. Instead Carver trashed all of that to make Sam and Dean more pathologically dependent than ever. And instead did this: Which: exactly. And as a transition... That was basically my point. And Dean didn't have to be sorry for saving Sam - I don't think he had anything to be sorry about there - but he could have been sorry for lying to Sam and for all of the pain and mental anguish that ended up causing Sam. While yes, Sam was a jerk for basically this: Dean also knew perfectly well that one of Sam's things was his worrying he would go evil again, fall into his addiction, and/or have his dark nature take over*** - it's been a thing with Sam since season 1 - yet Dean let Sam stay in that concerned and questioning state for months, shrugging it off to Sam, and it ultimately lead to Gadreel using Sam's body to kill Kevin. Dean just glossing over that point with a "Somebody changed the playbook" excuse rather than finishing his apology and owning up to how insensitive and hurtful his lying (not the original decision) was to Sam was a bit callous, in my opinion. Yes Dean was in pain, but it was partly a pain of his own making, because as someone (I think it was @catrox14, @ahrtee or @gonzosgirrl?) so eloquently explained earlier in this thread, had Dean explained about Gadreel earlier, Sam likely would have chosen to keep Gadreel around to heal himself, and Sam wouldn't have been as upset and angry. (With the added benefit that Sam could have kept a closer eye out for inconsistencies for what they were and maybe figured out that Gadreel was a problem.) But all of that got forgotten in favor of the narrative the writers wanted to push... which would have been made messy by acknowledging that. But as you said, Sam came across as the hypocritical one here, because the writers chose to ignore that set up about Sam's concerns and Dean's lying ("Sharp Teeth" was - surprise - another Adam Glass episode, so Sam coming across as insensitive isn't much of a surprise. Garth's description of Sam versus his description of Dean to his wife in that episode is pretty much an indication of what Adam Glass thinks of Sam's character.) and instead focus on how hypocritical and mean Sam was being for being angry with Dean. And Dean - and the writers, especially - still doesn't address this later on when he has a chance. It becomes all about saving Sam's life instead so that Sam once again becomes the hypocrite and looks like the insensitive one. *** At least in the Carver era again... Sam's character development in season 6B and 7 concerning this was thrown out the window when Carver took over, so apparently it was a thing again. While this is true, I personally thought Sam was very cognizant of this in season 5 and worked very hard to accommodate Dean on that front. Except for "Fallen Idols"*** he often followed Dean's lead, backed Dean's decisions concerning the angels up even if it meant his own life, and took Dean's passive-aggressive jab here and there without much complaint. He also backed Dean up when no one else believed in him anymore. Because of "Fallen Idols," I don't think Sam gets much credit for how he didn't push Dean the entire rest of the season after that episode. *** that episode being enough of an exception that I always wondered if it was supposed to come before "The End" (it would have fit much better there).

Sorry about that. I missed the nuance. The section I quoted seemed to be saying that Dean always listened to Sam's input. I disagreed, because I was including the times when Dean was under the influence, just as I generally include when Sam is under the influence. There was also season 5 where yes, there was Sam's betrayal, but again if Dean is going to work with Sam - which was Sam's main point in "Fallen Idols" - it needed to be a partnership - Dean running off to say "yes" to Michael after Sam followed Dean's lead all season wasn't exactly listening on Dean's part in my opinion. But... ... can't the same be said for Sam? Sam's main beef that I have seen is when Dean seems not to be listening to him and just makes a decision. What Sam mainly seems to want is to be consulted. He often seems to be perfectly happy with a "go in guns blazing" and following Dean's lead strategy as long as he gets to ask "so what's the plan?" and give some input. And just because if he hears Dean's explanation and still doesn't agree with it - as with the above season 5 Michael example - it doesn't mean he wasn't listening. Even in season, 4 Sam listened to Dean's advice and followed it for a while. He just ended up coming to the conclusion that doing nothing wasn't working... fairly similar to Dean in season 5, actually. I guess I don't understand why it's okay for Dean not to take Sam's advice, but it's somehow not okay for Sam not to take Dean's advice. The show seems to think it's bad based on all of the horrible consequences it gives Sam any time he dares to try to decide anything on his own, but I don't think it is. And I do give Dean a pass for his being under the influence of the demon mark... It's the before that, lying stuff that annoyed me, because he wasn't under the influence then. Well, sometimes. Not so much the deal at first (Dean told Sam basically too bad, I earned the right to decide for you, deal with it... and then proceeded to make Sam feel guilty about it.) Later on he was remorseful, though. Or Amy. Dean felt bad about lying... but not enough to let Sam get over it in his own time. ("Stop being a bitch.") Or Gadreel. Dean didn't have to be remorseful for making the decision in the first place (I thought that was the entirely right decision), but he wasn't entirely remorseful about the lying either or how much that hurt Sam. He started to be, but in the end, he didn't even own up to it, saying he didn't have a choice (he did) and blaming outside influences for it. And again Sam was told to get over it. (see below). Sam implying they couldn't be brothers for a bit was harsh, but Dean wasn't making his case very well either. Even on that first case together Dean was making decisions for Sam and giving him the crappy work to do - when he wasn't lying to him and trying to ditch him - and then when Sam was trying to be conciliatory, he still gets the "I just think maybe we need to put a couple W's on the board and we get past all this," so I can see why Sam would be pissed off. And Dean couldn't have been too remorseful for the deal (Regretful, yes), because his lying about Gadreel was pretty similarly the same thing again, deciding something big for Sam in terms of Sam's agency without giving Sam a choice in the matter. So I would say both brothers have some trouble with remorse, myself. Apparently Sam doesn't corner the market on that one, either. If Sam's going to be criticized for asking Dean to be forgiving too soon, Dean should get the same criticism, in my opinion, for the example above. Yes, Sam's reaction was harsher, but Dean didn't tell Sam that Sam could be as angry as he wanted that he (Dean) deserved it either. Dean just wanted Sam to get over it. Sam does lash out, but I thought he did show remorse in season 5 in various places and in season 6B. I'm pretty sure that's not exactly what Sam said. Sam said that he thought he had paid enough - and in my opinion he had - but Sam actually said that there was no wiping the slate clean ever. So he did feel remorse, he just thought that he had paid enough, so what was the use of letting guilt cripple you when you could be actively doing things to atone instead. That's how I interpreted what Sam said. Of course that episode was written by Adam Glass who hardly ever writes well for Sam or writes him in a positive light*, so my interpretation could be a kinder one than the writer intended. * There were only two episodes that I remember: "Mommy Dearest" and "About a Boy." "Mother's Little Helper" had a moment or two, but Glass spent most of that episode not writing about Sam, but about peripheral characters instead, so... The rest ranged from ehn to abysmal in terms of writing for Sam, especially without the influence of Gamble. In "Bad Boys," for example, Glass couldn't even bother to get Sam's age remotely right, never mind anything else, and he'd been writing for the show since season 6.

Both brothers do that, though. It's just sometimes easy to remember one over the other. The argument in "Fallen Idols," for example was because Dean wouldn't listen to Sam's input, but insisted that the case was over, end of story. At the time I thought that was a little more closed minded than Dean usually was, but there had been a few hints previously ...like Gordon. Sam had to do a lot of convincing on that one, and the fact that Gordon "snaked the keys" was more the deciding factor than Sam's arguments. And there was the end of "99 Problems." Dean lied and went running off on that one (an example where Dean drove away.) Whether someone thinks Dean's plan was better than no plan at all or better than Sam's future plan still doesn't take away from the fact that Dean wasn't listening to anyone and went running off after saying he was coming back. And there was Amy. Dean didn't give in to Sam on that one. And Abaddon with sending Sam to the basement - after which he told Sam (paraphrase) "it's my way or nothing. Take it or leave it." So not really listening to Sam's input there either. I think Dean also insisted on keeping the First Blade if I remember correctly, even though that was a bad idea, and Sam's arguments to that effect were solid, and it wasn't so easy to get it away from him. Dean went running off to get the mark in the first place also. He didn't exactly do it behind Sam's back per se, because he told Sam he was leaving... he didn't say to do what, however. And the lying in season 9. So there have been some times Dean flatly refused to give in to Sam or went behind Sam's back. It's not all one-sided. I think maybe Sam's instances might end up being more glaring, because generally the narrative is more likely to impose bad consequences when Sam does it versus when Dean does it. Guilt. I think a lot of what Sam did in season 4 and in the time between season 3 and 4 had to do with guilt.

Sorry I'm not following on how that is Sam blaming Dean. It might be Sam not seeing the problem, but that's not blaming Dean. That's Sam not seeing the problem. And I always interpreted Sam talking about seeing Ruby as Sam talking about everything, even when he first started seeing Ruby - as in season 3. I could be wrong about my interpretation, but that was the impression that I got. But even if it was just season 4, my original point still stands. This was about Sam's feelings. He felt like a little brother. He felt like a failure - Dean was a constant reminder that Sam couldn't save him from hell, and was now messed up in ways Sam couldn't fix. And yes, Dean was a moral reminder that Sam was doing wrong. Another reason to want to get away. Ruby's illusion was an illusion, but it was easier than the reality. Sam said Ruby made him feel strong (not that she didn't treat him like a child). And she did - with a drug yes, and it was false, but Sam felt like he was saving people. Not a failure. Strong. The illusion of hope. None of which has to do with Dean or what Dean was doing or him being "bossy", and everything to do with how Sam felt. Dean could have just been standing there and Sam would have felt that way... which is why Sam assured Dean that Ruby wasn't Dean's fault but his. The only thing iffy was Sam saying that Dean needed to let him grow up. But even that doesn't imply "bossy" to me. It more implies protective. And that had nothing to do with the Ruby part of the discussion, since it related to the current issue in their working relationship. That whole dialogue was badly written and needed more fleshing out. In it's current state, it takes two issues that are separate points - Ruby and the current hunt scenario - and combines them when in reality they are only tangentially related.

Sam didn't say that. The word "bossy" was never even used. That was fan interpretation. Sam just said that he went to see Ruby to get away from Dean. He said that he did it so that he wouldn't feel like the little brother. People interpreted that to be bossy, but there could be a half a dozen reasons that works without the explanation being "Sam said Dean was bossy." Sam didn't. At all. It could be because of Sam's own insecurities - and Sam's "it was my fault" points to that much more than Dean was bossy. If you feel like a little brother and want not to feel like a little brother, you go away from your big brother for a while. Bossy has nothing to do with it and isn't necessary to the feeling. Family dynamics are family dynamics. It's like coming home from college and seeing your parents and feeling like a kid again... It doesn't mean that your Mom is "bossy." It means that your mom is your mom, and you're going to feel those family dynamics irregardless. The show surely did hold Sam responsible. For one, they made it cause an apocalypse (so Dean taking the mark in the first case was hand-waved away). And secondly they had Chuck, God himself, say exactly that it was Sam's fault and absolved Dean altogether. I'm not sure how much clearer the writer's intentions could have been myself, since they had another character come right out and state it as such. Except that Sam had to admit in front of everyone that he made the mistake. And if Dabb had Dean get some kind of very special lesson, I don't remember it much, myself. And in season 9, Dean was justified in making decisions for Sam, because in the end Sam "lied," so Dean making the decision about Gadreel was seen as the same thing... and to make sure that was the case, Gadreel helped save the world, so good thing Dean made that decision for Sam. At least that was the message that I got from that. At least Dabb had Sam have to publicly apologize for his bad judgement. Dean didn't have to apologize for anything at all and got to blame his lying on circumstance, saying that he didn't have a choice. And then be justified for it. He even got to make the decision for Sam again singlehandedly when he killed Death after Sam had agreed to help Dean be banished... and again there were no consequences for Dean making that decision. For me, Dean's very special lessons lose a whole lot of meaning when there aren't any actions to back it up. It just comes off as empty words. Like the writers are making some token "now Dean, you shouldn't make unilateral decisions for other people," words, but they don't really mean any of it, because there aren't any real consequences when Dean does, or often times there are actual benefits that come from Dean having made those unilateral decisions. That makes for an entirely muddled message. If the writers really believed that Dean shouldn't make unilateral decisions for Sam, then they should have actual bad consequences come from Dean's unilateral decisions... but they don't, so I don't believe that's their actual opinion on the subject. I believe in results, not pretty words. Which is why I don't believe the writers actually believed the leader Sam thing, either. If they really thought Sam was such a good leader, they wouldn't have had everyone get killed under his leadership... twice. (Three times if you count the AU universe deaths). Again, it's results. The pretty words don't matter, and I'm not going to believe the writers' "nothing to see here, folks" declarations if I can see the building on fire (or in this case, the bodies piling up) behind them. I mean once, maybe it was just circumstance and they didn't mean to make Sam look like a failure as a leader, but twice? That starts to stretch credibility, in my opinion. Twice is starting to be a message. Just my opinion on that one.

It was light teasing at best. Sam also teased Dean about the ballet shoes, too, but it was all in fun. And so what if Sam teases Dean for being a horndog... why is being a horndog so much of a bad thing? I really don't see much difference. In Dean's opinion, all of those things are nerdy and uncool. Sam's not wanting to drink with Gordon was teased with "remind me to beat that buzzkill out of you later," or something to that effect. They're brothers. They tease each other. And until Carver got a hold of them, I really didn't see the negativity all that much. Sam is sometimes more annoyed - because Dean likes to annoy Sam and pushes his buttons. I understand that all too well. Things that some members of my family do seem much more annoying when they do it, because they know how to push my buttons while doing it. It doesn't mean that Sam doesn't love Dean or even sometimes find his behavior endearing... it just means sometimes he gets annoyed when Dean pushes his buttons. It was the lying about it. No question, in my opinion. Sam was having reality issues. A big part of his world at that point was not knowing what to believe or what not to believe right away. There were hints that when Dean was talking to Sam at the beginning of "The Mentalists" that Sam might not even have realized at first that it was actually Dean and not a hallucination. Dean told Sam that he would be his stone one. Lying to Sam when a big part of his reality was a lie was the main "sin" as you put it, for me anyway. When Dean explained why he lied - that he was worried about Sam's "shooting at Satan" mental state, Sam understood why Dean had done it almost immediately and forgiven him, so the whole situation could have been avoided if Dean had confessed sooner and explained why he had lied to begin with. But he waited much too long... If Dean trusted Sam to back him up on hunts, claiming that he was worried Sam was unstable and might react badly to the truth got a little harder to understand as time went on. It was the same thing in season 9. It wasn't the helping Gadreel - no matter what Carver turned it into - that was the problem for me: it was Dean lying about it. In that case however, Dean blamed his lying on circumstance, never took responsibility for it, and the entire thing was swept under the rug and played off as a good thing in the end.

I agree on the non-redemption. I should have sarcasmed more that "pretty, shiny redemption" (in my head it was very snarky - heh.) And in addition to the "friend" thing (gag, indeed), don't forget "misunderstood." Actually as you point out here, I think I understood Gadreel just fine up until the writers tried to retcon things to, as you said, make him look like an actual hero. For me, the last straw was that conversation in "King of the Damned" having Sam say somehow that Gadreel (paraphrase) "hadn't felt evil, just misunderstood," but that he [Sam} "was wrong, obviously," because "He [Gadreel] killed Kevin" Wait, what? First of all, Sam hadn't "felt" Gadreel at all... that was the entire point of Sam's dismay at losing time and thinking he was going crazy or going darkside again. And second of all: way to not only have Gadreel's intentions retconned, but then blame part of Kevin's death on Sam, because he should have known better. That not only did Sam supposedly previously feel that the entity inside him "wasn't at rest" and had "unfinished business" - which first time we heard of that, since supposedly Sam didn't even know Gadreel was there, and Gadreel was doing stuff to his memory and suppressing Sam in his own mind - but that Sam was wrong for not knowing that Gadreel had other intentions. And Castiel - who previously makes a point out of having Sam admit that he "didn't feel threatened" or that Gadreel didn't feel like a "danger" or "hostile" - doesn't say a word after Sam blames himself for not knowing better. Good thing I didn't have any heavy objects in my hand at the time, or the television would have been in danger. So apparently Gadreel was misunderstood and lead astray by Metatron and Sam was wrong and should have known better, thereby maybe saving Kevin... got it writers,,, and I'll refrain from elaborating on what I think about that. I think you get the picture. And your last point is spot on. It's ridiculous that the writers put part of this blame on Sam and then expect him to be all hunky dory with the angel who "treated him like a hairy crack house to squat in" (good description there). Early in the season, before things got hairy, I thought the show did a good job of showing them enjoying each other's company, even though Sam had issues. The time passing montage in "Meet the New Boss" showed them working on the car together and hanging out together. Admittedly, they didn't go out for beers and such in season 7, especially later, but that was mainly because Dean's obsession with Dick Roman didn't leave him with as much free time. Sam supported Dean's need to do that, though - an unfortunately deleted scene from "Time After Time..." shows Sam's support in that regard. If you don't have the DVDs, I suggest looking for it online - and despite that, they enjoyed working on cases. That's the thing I missed most later on - especially season 8 and 9. In episodes like "How to Win Friends..." ,"Plucky Pennywhistle's..", "Out With the Old," and "Party on Garth," Sam and Dean actually seemed to be enjoying hunting. There was fun discussion in Biggersons and diners and over autopsies, and jokes about glampers and turducken sandwiches, the houses they squatted in, rock, paper, scissors, obsessed fans (Becky), cursed porn magazines, tainted junk food, and evil clowns and giant slinkies. They even joked with each other about Sam's hallucinations. Despite Bobby's death, Dean's depression and obsession, the Leviathans, and Sam's Lucifer hallucinations, there was way more fun in season 7 than in season 8 when arguably there was much less reason in that season for the grimness. Sam and Dean never seemed to enjoy hunting at all in season 8 or season 9. And whereas for me Sam and Dean seemed to actually enjoy being with each other in season 7, making the best of a bad situation and finding small comforts and fun where they could, they didn't even seem like they should be in the same car or room together in season 8 and 9. It was a glaring contrast in my opinion. For me, season 7 was one where I actually found Sam and Dean to be in a good place with one another and enjoying each others' company. The conflict was mainly external - the leviathans - rather then between the two of them. Even their one brief, angsty conflict over Amy was resolved within one episode of it happening and they both came to a better understanding of each other's position when it was concluded. Contrast that with season 8 and 9's seemingly repetitive and never-ending conflict with each other, and season 7, to me, was much more enjoyable.

I agree that Sam needs Dean more than wants him... at least sometimes. For me, it all depends on what version of Sam we get at any particular time. Kripke's season 2, 3, and 5 version of Sam wanted to be with Dean... more than vica versa actually, in my opinion (especially season 5). I think season 4's Sam wanted to want Dean... but there was guilt and other stuff making that difficult. Gamble's Sam - not the Soulless one, the real Sam - also wanted to be with Dean most of the time, again more than the other way around, in my opinion. Carver's Sam didn't seem to want Dean so much early on, though why I have no idea. Much of Sam's characterization then made little sense. If Sam didn't want Dean all that much, then why did he stick around? And why was he jealous of Benny? I guess Amelia was just supposedly so awesome, Sam was giving up something, and Benny was just so awesome as to inspire jealousy or ... something. It never seemed to make sense to me. In season 10 and 11, Sam did want to be with Dean. He even confessed as much to Charlie. Dabb's Sam was mostly just there and took on whatever personality the writer du jour wanted him to have. That was generally prissy Sam who sometimes seemed annoyed by Dean (and most things in general). Sam fluctuated between skilled hunter and complete incompetence, depending on what the plot demanded. The last good characterization of Sam, in my opinion, was season 11. As for Dean wanting Sam, for me, that too is somewhat conditional. I think Dean sometimes wants the idea of Sam, though, more than actual Sam. He wants Sam to have a good time with and hunt with, but if Sam wants to discuss difficult feelings, generally Dean just wants him to go away until Dean is ready to have his company again. Or when Sam gets angry, Dean just wants him to get over it and accept Dean was mostly right anyway. So yes, Dean wants Sam, but I think he wants a less complicated Sam than who Sam really is. And sometimes that ends up getting turned around on Sam as if Sam is the only problem, when usually they both are the problem. You might be surprised, but I agree with all of this, and I was highly disappointed when all of this aspect of it was pretty much dropped like a hot potato. That the whole thing got turned into an "I was ready to die!!!!" angst fest (which, um no, that wasn't the issue - at least not for me) and somehow Sam was the one who had to be apologetic and say he lied, pretty much ruined the season for me. I get it Carver, you wanted Dean saving Sam to be the right thing to do (which it was... it was the lying and taking away Sam's choice in the matter that was the issue), and have a pretty, shiny redemption for Gadreel, but did you have to turn Sam into the whiny bad guy and victim blame him to do it? (In my opinion, no, no he didn't.)

Been mostly away for a while, and on catching up, decided that I'd revisit this ; ) ... Of course catrox14 makes an excellent point! But I always thought that Robbie Thompson missed an obvious joke in "Fanfiction" as Sam was waxing poetically on what a ship between him and Castiel would be called (by the way, Sam, it's either Sastiel as you guessed second or Sassy*** depending on the context of the fanfic, never Samstiel that I'm aware of). Dean should entirely have said, eyebrows raised and smirk in place "Got something you're trying to tell me there, Sam?" Because it entirely needed to be said, in my opinion. (And in my head I would imagine Sam's "answer" to be him looking up sideways, doing that frowny mouth consideration expression of his, and jogging his head back in forth and then a smirk back at Dean to freak him out. A joking "Hey, you gotta admit Cas looks kinda dark and mysterious in that trenchcoat," would've been maybe been pushing it - though entirely within Sam's sense of humor, in my opinion - but a gal can imagine.) Of course, some Destiel shippers might've had a fit, but I could entirely believe Sam considering something for a fleeting moment there when he said that, based on the reflective way he was saying it. (And on a this is entirely my opinion only front, I personally thought Sastiel made more sense character-wise... mostly based on their shared experiences of messing up and in disappointing Dean... their love for Dean being something they'd share and would bond over to bring them together. Obviously, though, based on the relative rarity of Sastiel fic this is a minority opinion. I do like, however that there is a subgenre of Sam/Cass though... a subgenre maybe not as suited to Dean/Cass, since by nature Dean/Cass fanfics are generally going to contain some sort of angst based on their relationship.) But otherwise I got nothing else at the moment... except that Crowley seemed to observe or pick up on something in that Sam was generally his hint hint (and sometimes more overt) sexual innuendo brother, whereas Dean was his "buddy" brother. Maybe Crowley was picking up on something ; ). *** For those not familiar with the genre, Sassy fic is a Sam/Casstiel fic that is lighter and more fluffy in nature, entirely devoid of angst. It is a rare bird to be sure, but does exist. (Or at least did - it may be extinct now.)

Both times. It was already sad when Dean said it, but by the time Sam said it, and I knew he wasn't going to get what he wanted, that was the part that got to me. Didn't much appreciate the unintended parallels to the Medium finale though. And I'll have to watch again to see if it was shown that there was a mother... but my thought was that it was probably better they didn't show Eileen, because I could imagine Dabb having her die in childbirth or something awful like that (story parallel to Sam's life, you know). Though a part of me would've liked to have seen Sam and Eileen hunting together for a time, another part was satisfied that Sam was truthful when he said he couldn't/wouldn't want to hunt without Dean (and "Mystery Spot" was a good testament to why Sam hunting alone would be a bad idea.) Definitely didn't love it, but still not sure how I feel about it... Still thinking I'm going to end the series with the season 11 finale minus the last scene.

I gave a reason for the separate deaths in one of my potential ending scenarios for the show - that would never happen - but I wouldn't mind seeing if we have to get a Memorex heaven ending... As a tribute to Dean, Sam uses some of that extra time to do some of the things Dean wanted to do - like go to Amsterdam and Tijuana and revisit the Grand Canyon - but never got to do. So when they reunite in heaven - shared heaven and all - and after the big reunion, Dean asks where they should go next. Sam suggests "Amsterdam?" Dean says "We never went to Amsterdam, Sam. You nixed that plan, remember." Sam just smiles and says, "but I did. Wanna see?" Begin fade out with Dean saying "The coffee houses with no coffee and everything?" "Yeah, even those... but still no donkey show." "You went to Tijuana? Awesome... You know, I can take you to New Orleans. There's this Voodoo priestess there..." "Voodoo or Hoodoo?" "Really, that's the question you ask?..." fade to black. Edited to Add: And after Sam and Dean are done site seeing, I like to imagine them hooking up with Ash to cause a little mischief in heaven. At least that would be a reason for Sam staying around alive on earth for a while... Otherwise we'd just end up with the CBS Medium ending,*** and, man did I hate that. Pissed me off so much. Taints the entire show for me if I acknowledge it, so I tend to disregard that whole CBS final season and stick with the NBC ones in my head. *** And if you don't know of this series ending, you're lucky. <Spoilers!>They basically retconned the show (since they'd already had flash forwards), so that one of the best things about the show - the realistic and interesting relationship between Allison and Joe and their family life - gets thrown out the window for a sappy Joe waited for Allison in heaven for 30-40 years reunion thing. Yeah, that's entirely worth the kids growing up without a father and Allison being alone for her final years. Not to mention the real life Joe DIDN'T DIE so killing him off on the show is kind of creepy.