Hecate7
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Posts posted by Hecate7
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11 hours ago, Oscirus said:
I'm sorry but you don't get to claim woman's rights if you abandon your family for a handsome prince that you barely knew for a day.
Yes, you do. You can make mistakes and still have rights, and besides, she's right. Lyanna didn't have a vote in whether she married Robert. The only way to marry her choice was to run away.
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4 hours ago, Slovenly Muse said:
I think a Sansa/Gendry marriage is more likely, if it DOES come down to it. Mostly because marriage in this world is political, not typically romantic, and there are certain expectations (socially and politically) for a "wife" among the great houses that Sansa has been preparing for, and Arya avoiding at all cost (naturally). Plus, I like the symmetry that Sansa was engaged to a Baratheon back in season one, as a political move to unite their houses, and may end up living up to those expectations by finally marrying the only WORTHY Baratheon, and consolidating their power to defeat the Lannisters (bonus that Cersei tried to interfere with the planned Stark/Baratheon union by trying to marry Sansa to Joffrey, who was actually a Lannister, and then Tyrion. I would LOVE it if Sansa's political power-marriage was Cersei's undoing). Plus, Arya would benefit equally from having a weaponsmith as a brother-in-law or as a husband (I don't really see them as more than close friends... but then again, they haven't met up again as more mature young adults. Maybe their chemistry will have blossomed with puberty ;) But I'm totally open to the show convincing me either way!
As I recall, the solid gold hand was Cersei's idea, and although he never said anything, I got the impression that Jaime didn't like it, and found it cumbersome, heavy, and ostentatious, and would have preferred something more functional. I thought he was covering it up (as well as his usual armour) to reduce the chances of being recognized while travelling. The gold hand is a pretty unique feature!
Yes! This is totally it. The show hasn't given us much to go on, but I do think the sisters were genuinely experiencing conflict, as they had both endured trial-by-fire and become different people, and were trying to figure out who they were, what they wanted, and how they fit together. LF took advantage of that friction to try and create more profitable chaos, but he pushed too far when he tried to convince Sansa that Arya actually wanted to kill her for her position. There was just no way. That's likely when he ironically became the common enemy that brought them together! But with so few clues onscreen, that's only a guess. And the one big clue they DID give us, I can't make sense of: Why did Sansa send Brienne away? To protect Arya from Brienne? To protect Brienne from Arya? To protect herself from Brienne? To prevent Brienne from protecting Arya? Because Brienne just can't keep a secret and could have tipped off LF to their plan? Nothing REALLY explains it, whether you think Sansa was playing LF or was buying his BS.
She sent Brienne away so that Littlefinger couldn't request trial by combat.
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On 8/28/2017 at 5:31 PM, Star Aristille said:
Unless Cersei specifically picked the Mountain for Oberyn's opponent (I'm pretty sure Tywin picked him), I don't see how that's her fault.
We were actually shown the scene where Cersei picked him.
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On 8/27/2017 at 10:58 PM, Pogojoco said:
She is right, I agree.
Tyrion sent Myrcella to Dorne (who hate them. It is known.)
Tyrion killed Tywin- Cersei was totally right when she said no one would've tried this stuff with Tywin still in charge. No one lives forever, of course, but one does live longer if they don't take a crossbow bolt to the bowels.
But in what way is anyone besides Cersei and Tommen responsible for Tommen?
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12 hours ago, FemmyV said:
I'm suddenly wonder if this might turn out to be GRRM's 3rd "Oh shit" moment. At some point, there needs to be some discussion why neither Brother Maynard nor Rheagar seemed to have told anyone.
Because they died before they could mention it.
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11 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:
I suspect Arya's giving Sansa a raft of shit because of Sansa's always present holier-than-thou attitude. Arya's trying to take Sansa down a peg, and make Sansa understand and respect that fact that Arya is no longer a little sister to be trifled with. Further, that Arya chose her own way, and she's never going to tolerate any flack from Sansa about doing "what's expected". She had to put up with it from her parents, but she has put Sansa on notice not to go there.
It will be interesting to see (although I'm sure we'll have to wait a year) to see how Jon and Arya get on. Sansa really never got on with any of her siblings, particularly the younger ones, and I think Robb was probably the only one she deigned to tolerate. (RIP Robb and Rickon).
None of this 20th century stuff actually applies, though. Sansa is Lady of Winterfell ruling in Jon's place. Arya can't handle that, but it's the deal. Sansa has given Arya no friction whatsoever about doing "what's expected." She hasn't tried to marry Arya off, hasn't lectured her about hair or clothes or fighting. Hasn't said a word about Arya's "way." It's Arya who's gone on the attack here, and it's completely inappropriate. It's like storming into the CEO's office because you're their younger sister who works in accounting and you're not going to be trifled with. It's thoroughly inappropriate.
Sansa didn't get on with the siblings because she didn't wear pants, and boys have to pick on girls for that. Arya not being a boy had to pick on Sansa twice as hard in order to feel like one of the boys. Sansa really didn't do anything except what she was supposed to do, unless she rolled her eyes at Arya doing things Sansa wouldn't have been allowed to do, or yelped because something got thrown at her again.
Arya is giving Sansa a raft of shit because she's always done so, it's always been the dynamic. Sansa sits pretty and tries to look okay while Arya gives her a raft of shit, and is eventually disciplined because she yelped unbecomingly. In a way, Arya is who taught Sansa how to handle the abuse she later got from everyone else. Arya was Sansa's first bully.
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27 minutes ago, Francie said:
When did Cersei target Gendry? If this is about killing Robert's bastards, on the show, that was laid at Joffrey's doorstep, not Cersei's. In the book, that remains a big unknown. Tyrion assumes and Varys confirms it, but Varys is a big wild card. I think D&D re-positioning that and putting in on Joffrey is a sign that even George plans to clear Cersei of that. If I'm missing a plot point, and you meant something else, let me know.
As to Joffrey and the animals, he doesn't kill the cat and hide it, like a budding serial killer would. He is the son of a man who likes to do three things: 1) Drink; 2) Fornicate; and 3) Kill animals. What does Joffrey do when he dissects the cat? Shows the kitten fetuses (which, ewwww, it's supposed to make us wretch to read that) to his father. He wants his father's attention and approval. Like I've said, show Joffrey is more cardboard villain than the book Joffrey. As to the books, George has said he wrote Joffrey with a teen age bully in mind, and that this teen age bully would never get the chance to see if he would grow out of it once he hit adulthood, like other bullies of which George was aware.
The idea that Olenna was rescuing her granddaughter rather than better positioning her for power is absurd to me. Margaery's back wasn't against the wall. She wasn't trapped. Olenna was clever enough to have found an excuse or manipulated the situation to get Margaery out of that mess and into a different match. Olenna had full knowledge of Joffrey's nature, and she let the marriage go forward. That Olenna and Margaery proceeded, all in their quest for power and influence, strips them of any right to cloak themselves in self-righteousness or a false defense claim. Olenna murdered the kid because he had an eligible younger brother who was easier to control. That's straight out murder. Murder for self-aggrandizement.
George is making a whopping great assumption that just because those bullies stopped bullying HIM, they "grew out of it." They didn't. They just stopped bragging to him of their exploits. I'm sure they had terrified wives, exes, and siblings on into their twilight years. GRRM is simply being deliberately naive about this. There are bullies who do grow out of it, but they are much milder sorts--just throwing their weight around to be dominant or testing the limits of what they can get away with. The "unpleasantness with the cat" is an example of a deeply deranged mind.
Margaery would have been in an impossible situation had she broken her marriage contract with Geoffrey. See Robb Stark. There is no graceful way to break up with people like Geoffrey or Cersei. As Sansa shows, being Joffrey's ex could be just as deadly as being his wife, and Olenna wasn't about to abandon Margaery to either fate.
Cersei might not have given the order to kill all of Robert's bastards in the books, but she did on the show, and it's like her to do it. Remember who made a giant fuss about Bran until Jaime threw him out the window, and who demanded that Jaime kill or maim Arya? Cersei wasn't the slightest bit sentimental about teenagers.
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On 7/21/2017 at 2:32 PM, Francie said:
She’s never targeted a teen age boy, like Olenna did. As you’ve gone there with the books, Joffrey – in the books – is a 13 or 14 year old kid, and Martin’s on record saying he wrote him as a typical teen age bully. A bully, George said, that might be the type to grow out of it when he’s older. That’s his description of Joffrey, not mine. And George goes on to state that, because of his murder, he’d never have that chance. So, Martin wrote Joffrey as being a more normal person. D&D ramped Joffrey up to 11 on a scale of 1 to 10 for entertainment purposes. But I mention it because Olenna did decide to take out a teen age boy.
Gendry was a teen-aged boy when Cersei targeted him. So I don't buy that. And I also don't buy that GRRM wrote a boy who was maybe going to grow out of it. What he did to Tommen, and what he did to animals, showed a sociopath who was very dangerous and was NEVER going to "grow out of it," because he was incapable of empathy in the books, too. Even if he were going to "grow out of" or get bored with terrorizing others, it wasn't going to happen soon enough for Margaery. Olenna wasn't "targeting" a teen, she was rescuing her granddaughter.
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4 hours ago, Francie said:
He understood it with Pod. He knew that Pod would be compelled to testify and that, while Cersei had just offered him a carrot at that point, she'd soon be showing him the stick and making him an offer he couldn't refuse.
But yet, that understanding went right out the window when it came to Shae. He knows that she has no power. He knows, or at least should know, that she has to testify or her life is in danger. But, still, the understanding that was given to Pod was not given to her.
And Shae's testimony was unnecessary. Tyrion knew that he was done for already. Jaime knew it, and that's why -- even before Shae's testimony -- Jaime offered up himself for Tyrion's life. So, Shae didn't sentence Tyrion to death. Her testimony was a pile on. An unnecessary pile on that Tywin inflicted to embarrass his son. Tryion would have been convicted without Shae's testimony. It was Tyiron's pride and wounded ego that made him lash out and not take the deal being offered him.
Be salty all you want. I get that. I get the attitude. But you're going to murder as well? The act is what I condemn.
Tyrion did his best to get Shae to safety, and she turned around and came back. She rejected his protection AND falsely testified against him and Sansa. Instead of trying to explain, she grabbed a knife the next time she saw Tyrion. In both the books and on the show it was obvious she had spied on him for Tywin.
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34 minutes ago, GrailKing said:
Arya not my favorite, Sansa is, but I honestly don't think she wants Jon's army, it's just what she tells us in book, Needle is WF...Jon's smile.
Absolutely. If there is one person Arya does love, it's Jon Snow.
QuoteHer memories are unreliable in KL, she wasn't with Sansa, she basing Sansa on sibling stuff at Winterfell, yeah Sansa was teasing and whiny, and snobbish. She was also kind, and lied for Arya on occasion.
Sansa protected Arya, never the other way around. She's older. That's how it works. And in their culture, her birthright is indisputable and does give her the right to the household. There is no question of anyone expecting her to share power with her sister, or give her the Lord's chamber. Sansa moved aside for Jon Snow even though she has the better right, because she is not a snob, and she could see that Jon had the people on his side. She is not taking power from him, even though it is her right. She offered to move aside for Bran immediately, because Bran is Lord of Winterfell.
These are lordly households and it's a feudal society. It's pointless to try to judge them by today's standards of snobbishness vs not. Sansa hasn't had Jon, Arya, or Tyrion's reasons to fraternize with lower ranking people. She does not see them as her equals because she isn't supposed to.
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5 hours ago, screamin said:
He already has, by putting Sansa in charge of drunken Dontos to smuggle out of KL at the moment of Joffrey's death, while LF sat safely on a ship in the bay waiting to see if she makes it out alive or not. Risking Arya killing Sansa if she's too convinced by that letter he hid for her to find is him depending again on his luck to win as he's always won till now...
And don't forget setting her up to be dangled out the Moon Door.
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2 hours ago, GraceK said:
Anyone else upset at the turn Arya is taking? I have always been TeamArya, and I have loved her since the beginning. But this whole being mean and distrustful to Sansa I just can't get behind. I can understand holding on to some resentments, but I feel like Arya has been through enough horror herself and has changed so much, that she should be willing to give Sansa a chance and understand that she might have changed too. It seems like manufactured drama to me...It doesn't make sense that after FINALLY reuniting with her family that her first instinct is to go after her own sister.
Poor Sansa. She's so happy to see her siblings and I feel like she keeps getting kicked in the face .
Arya was always like this. She never liked Sansa, even before the events of King's Road. Much of the stuff Arya "got away with" was picking on Sansa. Mud in the eye, a stain down the front of the dress, a bed full of sheep shit...and Sansa's objections and occasional eyeroll at Arya's shortcomings was always treated as "just as bad." So what opportunity did Arya ever have to develop any empathy for her? Any concern or caring? When was she ever encouraged to? Sansa's concerns were by definition stupid to Arya. Arya has a conscience, but it only covers things like a sense of honor and being kind to animals and responsible for her servants like Mycah and Gendry. Sansa doesn't fit in the picture because although Arya wants to be a fighter, she never put Sansa in the picture as "lady to be protected." She also doesn't have a lot of empathy, and she has even less of it for Sansa. Sansa can't do the things Arya can do, and that inspires disgust and annoyance in Arya, not protectiveness or concern. Sansa can do a lot of things Arya can't--make clothes, ration food, keep track of groups of people...and this inspires annoyance, too, not admiration or respect. Arya never really saw Sansa as anything but competition. They really aren't in competition for anything now, but the habit is still there. It hasn't been replaced with anything.
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I want Joanna Lumley.
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Just now, GrailKing said:
It's one of his rules to Sansa, always keep your hands clean.
The fact that Lady was killed by Daddy Stark echoes of a repeat of another wolf dying at the hands of a family member and the tragedy both victims are innocent.
Damn. You have something there.
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1 hour ago, Nanrad said:
Or she hates Sansa for prioritizing her beautiful prince and fairytales above her family. Even if you argue that Sansa had no choice with Micah, Sansa was still clearly enamored with Joffrey and got upset and arya for teasing and making jabs at Joffrey. Her opinion of Joffrey didn't change until he started behaving badly with her.
last season, arya befriended and felt sorrow for that feminine actress.
Arya bonded with a Kat substitute, yes. But she hated Sansa long before any prince appeared on the horizon, and long before there was Mycah or Needle. If Arya had a handful of mud to throw, she'd throw it at Sansa, before she ever had any reason. She loathed Sansa's enjoyment of poetry and pretty dresses, her talent with her needle, and her ability to do what Kat and their Septa wanted her to do the way they wanted her to do it. She had a real need to destroy any small joy Sansa took in life, especially if it was related to appearance or creativity. She hated her traditional femininity, and it could even be argued that she rejected traditional femininity because she disliked Sansa so much she didn't want to be like her in any way.
Baelish is obviously trying to set something up between the girls. I'm not sure why he would want Arya to kill Sansa, but that seems to be what he's setting up.
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9 minutes ago, taurusrose said:
I guess Arya doesn't. As she addressed Sansa as "lady" before leaving her presence this last episode. Of course, she could have been using sarcasm. Who knows? As for how or what Robb would have done, we're both spinning our wheels because neither of us know how he would have handled it. And please don't "duh" me. It implies stupidity which I can assure you I'm not.
No, I don't know she was joking. My interpretation of the scene does not need to track with yours.
Not duhing you, duhing Arya here, who of course knows perfectly well that yes, Lady Stark is the proper form of address here, and yes she does have to use it in public but not in private with her sister.
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4 minutes ago, Nanrad said:
I'm saying that that is how arya would react if she found out that information. She'd want to avenge her family. I'm sorry, but that whole ladylike for why people don't like her is tired. People loved margaery, many liked cat, lady olenna, etc who are largely feminine characters, but they don't like Sansa because she is feminine??? Pray tell, what other feminine characters are hated. Hell, the fact that people were happy the sand snakes were killed and hated Robb's wife, masculine roles and traits, also contradicts your point.
ARYA hates Sansa because she is feminine. I'm not talking about the audience.
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13 minutes ago, taurusrose said:
Okay. We came away with different impressions; I don't think she was joking.
I'm pretty sure Robb wouldn't have asked her to call him King Robb or Lord Stark. Ditto for Jon. As I said, it's one thing to use titles when the setting or conversation is official, and an entirely different matter when kicked back as siblings shooting the shit.
Robb wouldn't have had to ask. She'd have just done it, and she wouldn't needle him about it either. And if she had, he'd have done exactly what Sansa did: say "yes," with just enough of a smile to show it was probably a joke, but not enough of a smile to resolve all the tension, because that's the North's sense of humor right there. Ned had it, too. So does Arya, actually.
In public, not a joke, yes Arya does have to call her Lady Stark. Duh. In private, no of course not but who didn't already know that? Arya is weirdly angry with Sansa. Since they're both very important to the story, I'm hoping Arya does NOT kill Sansa. Baelisch seems like he's trying to manipulate her into doing just that. I'm vaguely worried about it.
But honestly I am more worried about how Jaime is going to punish Bronn. Hopefully Bronn has already fled as fast and as far as he can, to Tyrion's side, because I can't think of a punishment that would satisfy Cersei that won't also tank Bronn's usefulness to Jaime.
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1 hour ago, Oscirus said:
The fighting skills is the problem. She stands out in that she's the only Northern character of note that doesn't have them. She doesn't have northern sensibilities. I still see her going down south and doing something of importance down there and Arya getting winterfell due to this.
She doesn't need fighting skills. She has Brienne, and if Arya weren't nuts, she'd have Arya too. I don't see Sansa marrying a Southerner again, unless she decides to remarry Tyrion, which I don't think is really going to happen.
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17 minutes ago, taurusrose said:
Hmm. So was it Sansa's need to protect herself when she told Arya she had to call her Lady of Winterfell? That probably rubbed Arya the wrong way right off the bat; I sure thought it was high-handed. Who does that? They are sisters. Why should Arya run around calling her Lady? I can see Arya referring to Sansa by her title in certain situations, but not in private. They are nobles, not royalty. That right there is an example of why I can't entertain the idea that Sansa is Team Stark. I can't shake the feeling that she, like LF, is strictly Team Sansa. And if that's what it takes for her to feel safe and protected, she's the most damaged Stark of them all, IMO. The idea that power is the ultimate protection is an illusion.
I thought Sansa sounded like she was joking when she said yes. But I'm pretty sure Arya wouldn't have had a problem with calling Robb Lord Stark, nor would she have snarked about it. She's acting as if Sansa is somehow usurping Ned, and maybe that's because she's never had the chance to really grieve or to confront the fact that Sansa is head of the family. And before she'd even gotten the chance to process that, Bran showed up and declined when Sansa offered to step aside for him. So Sansa is STILL head of the family, even if Jon Snow is King in the North. She is Lady Stark. Jon Snow is not a Stark. Arya having a problem with this is purely Arya's own issues with Sansa. She's going to have to realize that this IS her family now. But her own first impulse is to start spying on Sansa and gathering reasons to kill her. Not promising.
I think Arya unconsciously blames Sansa for the deaths of Ned, Kat, Robb, and Rickon. Sansa doesn't need Jon to die, in order to be Lady of Winterfell. She already is Lady Stark.
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36 minutes ago, Nanrad said:
I literally mentioned nothing about the letter except, "we'll see what happens." And the letter thing occurred after the bedroom scene. Even then, LF was acting suspicious to catch her attention, despite this, she didn't respond in violence or accusation, but rather, observance and investigation.
Despite theithe acrimonious relationship, I doubt arya would blame Sansa for her own rape and would even try to avenge her.
Sansa already avenged herself. I suppose people who want to hate on her for being ladylike and non-fightery want to call her a murderer for it, but I was rather pleased that she did it. She avenged Rickon, too.
I doubt Arya would waste a blink of sympathy on Sansa--Sansa's just mini-Cersei to Arya. She's not on the list, but that's only because she's family. Imagine a younger brother saying to an elder brother the things Arya's been saying to Sansa. In fact, Sansa's birthright entitles her to rule Winterfell. She gracefully stepped aside for Jon, and Arya gives her absolutely no credit for that. She gives her no credit for offering to step down for Bran, either. Everything is Sansa's fault because Sansa wears dresses.
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14 hours ago, GrailKing said:
Sansa most definitely sees Arya has changed, she's more vindictive, she's a harden fighter, she knows she has a list, she's still driven by hatred, and she knows Bran has also changed, he's colder, more aloof, acts more like a zombie then Bran.
Despite what they went through Jon and Sansa are the two closer to normal, of course if they should survive and calm takes over then the flood of emotions will come forth with a vengeance.
Only part Sansa was upset about was Arya throwing in her face, that she took mom and dads room from Jon, because pretty things make her happy.
I think if Arya knew her sister was raped in those rooms she want to cut her own tongue out.
I don't think she'd think too much about it one way or the other. Just one more thing Sansa did wrong--get herself raped.
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21 minutes ago, Oscirus said:
Whenever given the choice between home and adventure, Arya's always chosen home. She'd be fine with running a castle her way. As for taking something from Sansa, who says that's what Sansa ultimately wants?
All of Sansa's dreams have always centered around her memories of Winterfell and being a Lady. She has always wanted to a queen or a lady of a great keep, and her skills are ALL what a lady in charge is expected to do. She has no fighting skills nor any wanderlust. She is currently running Winterfell and doing a great job of it. To make Arya lady of Winterfell, Sansa has to die. It should take more than just Sansa being dead to make Arya happy.
Arya has never daydreamed about inventories or fabric or food. She has never had reveries about any of that. It's all travel and excitement with her. Sansa dreams of safety, Arya of adventure, even when you'd think she had more adventure than a person could stand. Arya is not an administrator or a "running things" kind of person. She's more of a cop.
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On 7/29/2017 at 10:12 AM, anamika said:
Arya wanted to run things - be an advisor. She wanted to be Nymeria. She gets along with everyone. She knows the place. She can train little girls to fight. There's any number of things she can do.
When did Arya's fantasies ever involve "running things?" Particularly running a castle? I think the story has been very specifically showing us that that isn't her. I think she would hate it a lot, particularly since Arya running things would mean that everyone else is dead.
I'd like an ending for her that isn't dependent on killing Sansa or taking away from Sansa everything that she wants, that isn't dependent on marriage or children, and that doesn't subvert the training we've seen her getting. Arya's more of a cop or a detective than an administrator.
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S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf
in Game Of Thrones
That would be okay if she had a place to store prisoners, and guards. But she's out in the open and she has to make people bend the knee before someone comes back with reinforcements.