WhiteStumbler
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On 5/19/2019 at 9:28 PM, Anothermi said:
And leaving the best for the last. King Bran-the-Broken plans to rule in the style of Robert Barratheon. No, not seducing prostitutes and leaving the day to day business to the council, but seducing Drogon! And leaving the day to day business to the council. Some things never change
Exactly! Broken wheel my @ss... (grumble grumble)
On 5/20/2019 at 8:30 AM, DirewolfPup said:2) Bronn as Master of Coin? He would be more fitting as Master of War.
BINGO! Spot on.
On 5/20/2019 at 9:18 AM, Pallas said:(Drogon) destroyed the throne because it, more than Jon, had been the ruin of her.
So dragons are smart enough to understand symbolism. Hmmm. Or Drogon could have come into the room, seen Dany stabbed, and assumed it was the stabby thing made of swords that done the deed!
On 5/20/2019 at 9:44 AM, janjan said:Dear Show: Either you're dicking with us or you're a moral cretin. Read up on the Nuremberg Trails, why doncha.
Devastating critique. Well done.
On 5/20/2019 at 10:49 AM, Pallas said:The simple "He died protecting his Queen" as the last word on the erstwhile Kingslayer.
That is magic. Great connection.
On 5/20/2019 at 12:23 PM, Anothermi said:I can't remember, but I think Tyrion may have made a comment about his participation never being acknowledged.
Varys: (to Tyrion, as he was recovering from the Battle of Blackwater Bay) There are many who know that without you this city faced certain defeat. The King won't give you any honors, the histories won't mention you, but we will not forget.
On 5/21/2019 at 2:44 AM, Llywela said:My favourite moment? Was when Jon said, "Love is the death of duty," and Tyrion all but collapsed in shock at the thought that Jon Snow could have come up with such a profound statement
Ha! Nice interpretation. Even Tyrion has heard that Jon knows nothing.
On 5/21/2019 at 2:44 AM, Llywela said:How far she has fallen, how horribly her noble ideals have been corrupted by her ambition and her ruthlessness and her entitlement and her delusion.
Up until this season, I don't see much evidence within the show for those things. She has never previously been ruthless towards the innocent (that I can recall).
On 5/21/2019 at 2:44 AM, Llywela said:So it came as a surprise when six out of the seven decided to vote for a new king to rule over them
It didn't make sense for 6 kingdoms to choose to be ruled over in the future by a king or queen, when they have all been characterized as being fiercely independent up until S8E6. I call shenanigans.
On 5/21/2019 at 2:44 AM, Llywela said:but what will (the Unsullied) do in Naath when they get there, if they have never learned to see themselves as anything but soldiers with other people doing all the thinking for them?
Great question.
On 5/21/2019 at 8:34 AM, Llywela said:And so, after all those terrible wars and all that bloodshed, the show ends with life carrying on more or less as it ever has, as it should - and yet Westeros has changed, in subtle but important ways which could yet grow into greater change further down the line. I consider that a hopeful ending.
That is a really nice interpretation.
On 5/21/2019 at 8:34 AM, Llywela said:As for Robin, I give full credit to Lord What's-His-Name who's been fostering him all this time. We haven't seen them for years, but it was already clear then that the foster-lord was doing his damndest to knock some sense into the boy.
Royce. But he has spent all his time since the Battle of the Bastards in Winterfell, not with young Robin.
On 5/21/2019 at 10:19 AM, gingerella said:No matter how profound that parentage reveal was,
But what difference did Jon being a Targ make in the end? What did it change? Why did Bran tell Jon you are the rightful king if Bran could see that BRAN was going to be the king, not Jon? Was it all some devious 3ER plot to drive Dany mad so that Jon would have to kill her so that Bran would have to step in as king?
On 5/21/2019 at 1:16 PM, Llywela said:I think Ned and Cat could find plenty to be both surprised by and proud of there!
Surprised that their family name will die out in a few decades, certainly. 😞
On 5/22/2019 at 11:42 AM, gingerella said:because nobody else can warg into Drogon except him.
We have never seen Bran warg into a dragon, though.
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Sorry, but this will go on for a while.
The world that A Show has explored has been an invitation to wrestle with some weighty issues - might versus right (and the dance between them), the idea that noble deeds are not always rewarded (and are just as likely to be punished), the confounding idea that “noble” deeds might have terrible consequences, and an exploration of how ideas and expectations can follow from station of birth and family. I think it is an abdication of this invitation to not make it clear why Dany did what she did to Kings Landing - was it premeditated and tactical, a show of force that would cow the other kingdoms in Westeros to yield to her reign? Was it a fit of pique since her bestie Missendei was killed, or that her nephew no longer wanted to be her lover? Was it from “madness” (the TV version, not the DSM-V version)? I don’t think Season 8 answered that fundamental question.
Dany was right about one thing: It isn't easy to imagine a world that's never been before and, as Tyrion would say later in the episode, almost impossible to create that world without a good narrative. This begs the question of why Dany didn’t try to tell her story to someone, to help them see her vision of what that world could look like. Dany’s definition of victory, of a broken wheel, is so poorly defined that I have no idea what it would entail: No more Cersei Lannister? No more aristocracy? Equitable redistribution of wealth? Is there a scenario where Dany deeply regretted her actions, but that KL needed to be made example of in order to avoid future bloodshed? Not that any of the above would be a legitimate reason for a war crime IMO, but we don’t get to have that moral debate because A Show doesn’t have the time for people to ask or for Dany to explain.
In fact, A Show is in such a hurry to get to the end that Jon isn’t given an opportunity to talk with Dany and find out what was in her mind before he shrugs and kills her. Dany says “it was necessary” to execute prisoners, and Jon doesn’t ask why. Dany says that Cersei “used their innocence as a weapon against me. She thought it would cripple me”, but Jon doesn’t say ‘no, she was using your conscience against you - do you no longer have one’? What if Dany had said “do you think I like this? I feel sick about it. I don’t want power for myself, I want X”, and then she explicitly tells us what X is, what her vision is, what story she wants to bring into reality.
Littlefinger: Every time I'm faced with a decision, I close my eyes and see the same picture. Whenever I consider an action, I ask myself: will this action help to make this picture a reality? Pull it out of my mind and into the world?
The narrative doesn’t have time for Dany to articulate what it is that Dany has as her mental picture when she says “break the wheel”, so her actions (and by extension, Jon’s actions) have no narrative clarity and no moral meaning. This is an unforgivable error. What we here at the Spitball Wall have sought to do, what this grand experiment has been (to me), has been a quest to see if A Show could tell the story it wanted to tell without external resources - cast interviews, the creators putting their gloss on this scene or that, or websites that tell the backstory or fill in the blanks. If A Show was unable to sufficiently lay out what the stakes were and what each actor’s motivations were for something as momentous as Dany’s story this season, then it failed.
The pacing has been a problem all season, and especially this episode. I think that at least most of this problem is the abbreviated seasons. If S7 felt like it was in too much of a hurry, S8 has felt like a series of boxes to be checked as quickly as possible. A fundamental problem with the last two seasons was that A Show had become addicted to unexpected plot twists, but now lacked the time to properly set up the motivations of the characters on both sides of those plot twists. This meant that much of the last two seasons felt random and forced, a shock-for-the-sake-of-shocking narrative that prized surprise and spectacle over the slow build and earned pay off. I suppose some might see Dany's flip to evil as a satisfying upending of expectations, but to me it felt like an unearned "shock" that undid the story of who Danaerys is that she has built up over these 8 seasons.
I now turn specifically to the choice that Dany made to torch KL, and the reasons I think it is out of character for her. I think it makes no sense that the person who a few years ago (in the show timeline) locked away two of her dragons because of the death of Zala, the daughter of one poor man, would be OK with the death of thousands of innocents. Let’s walk thru that history…
In S1, Dany risked her status as khaleesi and the wrath of Khal Drogo's Dothraki army in order to protect a group of women from being raped. Where did that person go?
In S3…
Jorah: If you want to sit on the throne your ancestors built, you must win it. That will mean blood on your hands before the thing is done.
Dany: The blood of my enemies, not the blood of innocents.
Where did that person go?In S5…
Daario: On the day of the great games, gather all the Great Masters and Wise Masters and Worthy Masters you can find and slaughter them all.
Dany: I am a queen, not a butcher.
Where did that person go?For a minute, Dany decides to follow Daario’s advice, but Jorah changes her mind…
Jorah: Herding the masters into pens and slaughtering them by the thousands is also treating men like beasts. The slaves you freed, brutality is all they've ever known. If you want them to know something else, you'll have to show it to them.
Dany: And repay the slavers with what? Kindness? A fine? A stern warning?
Jorah: It's tempting to see your enemies as evil, all of them, but there's good and evil on both sides in every war ever fought.
Dany: Let the priests argue over good and evil. Slavery is real. I can end it. I will end it. And I will end those behind it.
So has Dany come to see being a peasant in Westeros as being a form of slavery? Are we supposed to believe that her way of “ending” that form of slavery is by killing all the peasants?In this episode…
Tyrion: She liberated the people of Slavers Bay. She liberated people of Kings Landing. She’ll go on liberating until the people of the world are free and she rules them all.
Sorry, Tyrion, but that is BS. After Dany defeated the armada of Good, Wise, and Benevolent Masters in Slavers Bay, she didn’t kill all of the former slavers who were defeated. Instead, she executed 2 of the 3 leaders, who were the people standing in front of her.I would argue instead that Dany had been moving towards more and more strategic decapitation of her defeated enemies. She has moved from crucifying 100 Masters in S4, to a dozen khals in S6, to two out of the three slave masters in S6E9, to the single head of House Tarley in S7. If Dany was becoming more and more “mad”, wouldn’t she be moving more and more towards the wholesale slaughter of her enemies and those that follow her enemies, even after their defeat? Dany’s most recent victory (over a human enemy) was within about the last year of the show timeline and it was the victory over the Lannister forces at the wagon train. After the battle was won, Dany didn’t annihilate all the former lords and the defeated Lannister army. Instead, they are given a choice:
Dany: I know what Cersei has told you. That I've come to destroy your cities, burn down your homes, murder you, and orphan your children. That's Cersei Lannister, not me. I'm not here to murder, and all I want to destroy is the wheel that has rolled over rich and poor to the benefit of no one but the Cersei Lannisters of the world. I offer you a choice-- bend the knee and join me. Together, we will leave the world a better place than we found it. Or refuse, and die.
All except Randall Tarley (and Dickon, because he is Dickon) bend the knee and live.
In The Bells, the residents of KL and the army defending it also explicitly made their choice known by ringing the bells (like at the end of a fight) and also by putting down their weapons. They are saying that they want to live in Dany’s world. Her response is to turn the city and people of KL to ash. I don’t get it. Because her choice is not explained, then Jon’s choice is incomprehensible, since we don’t know what he is choosing between.
They wrecked Stannis Baratheon. I think there is a big difference between the sacrifice of one child for some promised benefit and the burning of an entire city for no explicit benefit. When I re-watched S5 I could see a few breadcrumbs that might, with a great deal of supposition and filling in of the blanks, indicate how desperate Stannis had become, how the idea of himself as the only one capable of saving Westeros, had made the unthinkable necessary. Perhaps I will re-watch S8 and figure out that Dany wasn’t actually wrecked, that there was sufficient motivation for her turn towards being a mass murderer.
I don’t know if I will bother. And that makes me sad.
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To paraphrase Jon...
I'm here to say goodbye to my brothers and sisters, to my friends. Our fellow men and women who set aside their differences to fight together and snark together so that others might be entertained or gain a different perspective on A Show.
I am also here to say goodbye to our heroic Whitecloaks. Everyone who posted in this forum owes them a debt that can never be repaid. It is our duty and our honor to thank them for their tireless service in guarding this forum, and they should be honored for as long as men draw breath. They were the shields that guarded the realms of men. And we shall never see their like again.
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I am back from my trip abroad and successfully avoided any spoilers about the final episode, other than a screenshot of Sansa wearing a crown, which had me thinking that she would be on the Iron Throne at the end of the episode. Glad I was wrong about the one thing I thought was going to happen - Unsullied until the end!
Here are the comments and questions (LOTS of questions) I wrote while watching…
Nice visual of Tyrion walking past a bell lying in the streets of the ruined KL - a call back to their importance within the last episode and also to the image of the bell smashing down when Cersi blew up the sept of Baelor.
BS on Tyrion finding Jamie’s golden hand in that huge pile of rubble, but Peter Dinklage was amazing there.
I have to give the show credit for using a war crime as the means of ending Cersi, who has been one of the prime human antagonist since S1E1.
Where did all those Dothraki come from? Where did all those Unsullied come from? I thought most of their forces were killed in the defense of Winterfell.
Why doesn’t Dany list “defeating an army of the dead” from her list of the Unsullied and Dothraki accomplishments?
A captive Tyrion, knowing that family is one of Jon’s pressure points, showed more cunning at the tail end of one scene then he has shown in the last two seasons.
The conflict between Sansa and Dany felt contrived. Why wouldn’t Dany let go of The North - back in S6 she said…
Dany: (Yara’s) not demanding, she's asking (for the freedom for the Iron Islands). The others are free to ask as well.
Before it was revealed to be Drogon, did anyone else see the pile of rubble start to shift and think “Uh oh, is Jon about the fight Mountainstein”?
I don’t understand why Jon was shown emphatically handing over his entire sword belt when entering the cell of a prisoner if he can then casually stroll down a hallway of Unsullied and into the presence of the Queen wearing Longclaw and a dagger - WTF?!?
Why didn’t the Unsullied and/or the Dothraki kill Jon immediately when they found out Jon killed Dany? How did the Unsullied even find out Dany was dead and not off flying around on Drogon? Did Jon confess? If he did confess, was that the most Jon-like thing he had ever done?
Did Dany ever actually sit on the Iron Throne, or was the scene with Jon her first time touching it? If it was her first time in the throne room, what was Dany doing while Tyrion was talking Jon into regicide?
“What unites people? Stories.” Says the mouthpiece of professional storytellers.
Tyrion asked who has a better story than Bran, and I thought "really? He’s like the least interesting Stark.” Who else there really knows whom they are electing? Why would any Houses besides Stark/Tully follow some checked-out, unemotional cypher who speaks in riddles? Nice to see Edmure and Robin sitting around, so they weren’t completely dropped from the narrative, but weird that everyone goes along with the suggestions of The Imp from the hated Lannister family.
Bran the Broken seems sort of a cruel nickname, especially coming from Tyrion. Would he like it if he were called Shorty McScarface?
What is the Nights Watch mandate now that the Free Folk are accepted as part of the realms of men and the White Walkers are extinct?
Will they call Jon “Queenslayer“?
How tragic is Jon, whose arc takes him from (once again) being willing to sacrifice his own life for the good of the realm to being exiled at the place where his fellow brothers literally killed him the last time he was there. Also, why did the Lord of Light bring Jon back at all? To kill Dany, the person that the followers of the Lord of Light thought was their chosen savior, the (gender neutral royal pronoun) Who Was Promised?
Nice of Brienne to fill in the accomplishments of Jaime, the man who broke her heart.
Pod gets knighted and made Kingsguard - cool!
Brandon goes to "find Drogon” with his 3ER powers, and shows that he is just like every king before him that we have seen - more interested in something other than Small Council meetings. Robert was more interested in hunting boars and f@cking whores, “King“ Joffrey was more interested in torturing others, and Tommen was more interested in Margaery. Ironically, the ruler we saw actually involved in ruling the most was Cersi.
I love that the lining on the sleeves of Sansa’s dress were of red weirwood tree leaves on a gray fabric. Nice touch. I also love the wolf figurehead on Arya‘s boat and the Stark sigil on her sails. Up until the end, A Show looked amazing. With the Starks scattering, will there even be a House Stark after Bran is dead?
Questions Never Answered…
Why do seasons last years?
If winter is somehow associated with the Night King, will winter ever come again? Will the Starks then need new words?
Who/what was the voice Varys heard from the flames?
What does happen when you bring a jackass and a honeycomb into a brothel?
Hard to believe that the series would fade to black for the last time and I wouldn’t have a hint of a tear in my eye.
Now I will turn towards what you, my loyal brethren on this journey, thought.
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The only way imo Dany’s idiotic heel turn into Westerosi war criminal makes narrative sense is if it is part of a larger plan.
Break the wheel.
Destroy Kings Landing. Destroy the Red Keep. Destroy the Iron Throne.
I don’t know what she does about her dragon, army, and cavalry though.
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6 hours ago, gingerella said:
I’m starting to wonder if Arya will use someone’s face to get close enough to kill Dany.
I think Arya was riding towards the Red Keep (or what remains of it), and I think there is a new star in her play I’m Going to Kings Landing and Kill the Queen.
I don’t think Arya will need one of her faces to kill Dany - she didn’t need one to kill the NK.
Interesting spec about Drogon not surviving Dany’s death - since she “gave birth” to the dragons, he can’t survive after she is gone?
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Whelp, I get to say that I was wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.
Again.
It is inexplicable to me that the person who locked her dragons away over the death of one child could burn KL down.
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Depressing episode. Rushed and nonsensical. Why have air superiority if it can't allow you to see the ENTIRE GREYJOY FLEET lurking near your home base?
On 5/6/2019 at 10:37 AM, gingerella said:Dany? Not so much, IMO.
Dany gained the trust of the Unsullied by freeing them and asking (rather than compelling) them to fight for her and making them proud of themselves. Grey Worm told Dany “'Grey Worm' gives me pride. It is a lucky name. The name this one was born with was cursed. That was the name he had when he was taken as a slave. But Grey Worm is the name this one had the day Daenerys Stormborn set him free."
She got the Dothraki to ride the wooden horses across the poison water because she showed them strength and leadership.
I am honestly bewildered at where the "Dany is going fully Mad King" "Dany is a bad leader" stuff comes from. I just haven't seen that in A Show. What I have seen is A Show back Dany into a corner and strip away all her power piece by piece so that it appears the only option she has is to go Mad King on KL and "burn them all". Since the end of S6 she has lost two dragons, over half her armies, all the Dornish, and the Yara Greyjoy fleet. I think that Missendei's final word, "dracarys", was less a call to "burn them all" than a call to see a solution that only Dany can see. As she told Dany back in S5... "I can only tell you what I have seen, Your Grace. I have seen you listen to your counselors. I have seen you lean on their experience when your own was lacking and weigh the choices they put before you. And I have seen you ignore your counselors because there was a better choice. One that only you could see."
On 5/8/2019 at 9:01 AM, janjan said:But it was disproportionate -- as her hunger for power grew, so did her ruthlessness
She was advised to put all the Wise Masters and the Good Masters in a stadium and kill them all. She didn't. She has held off on burning KL to the ground since the start of S7. She keeps trusting her advisers even though the are loosing the war for her.
On 5/8/2019 at 6:50 AM, Pallas said:So they aim to drive her mad or bad or both from anguish, so that she will prove them right by using her (living) weapon of mass destruction to annihilate civilians.
I am betting she won't. I think a Queen Sacrifice is in the future.
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Three things really struck me on rewatch - the MUSIC is extraordinary. GoT music is usually pretty high level, but this was just superb.
The waves upon waves of the Army of the Dead that were still coming at Winterfel when Arya stabbed the NK was horrifying. There is not a chance anyone would have survived if the NK hadn't been killed.
The zombonidragon's throat got bitten bad by either Jon's dragon or by Drogon. For the rest of the episode he was like a broken gaspipe with a leak, spewing blue flame out of the side of his throat.
Also, I loved how many different genres were in this episode: horror, thriller, monster movie, war flick, Great episode, one for the ages!
ETA: I mentioned earlier how Jorah's death would have been the one he would have chosen of all possible deaths in the 7K, but I hadn't caught how he collapses just after the AotD collapsed all around him and Dany - like the only thing keeping him upright was his mission of protecting his beloved khaleesi. Wow.
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10 hours ago, Llywela said:
I think cremation is probably the easiest and swiftest solution!
10 hours ago, Anothermi said:Not to mention carrying the feeling of just-to-be-sure for the survivors.
I am convinced - what is the old saying? "those who have been attacked by an army of the dead fear an inert corpse lying in a field", or something like that?
This sounds like a job for dragon fire.
I like the idea of The Wall coming down (or what is left of it), but wonder if there are even any Wildlings left other than Thormund and a couple of random Wildling redshirts we glimpsed in The Long Night?
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On 5/3/2019 at 8:50 PM, Anothermi said:
He's been a curious and compelling character since we first saw him.
I found it fascinating that Robb and Talisa were the ones to find Qyburn in the shattered remains of Harenhal, half dead. Then he saved Jaime's arm ("stop the corruption" with boiling wine, I think), then he accompanied Jaime back to KL and somehow fell in with Cersei and became ReplacementVarys. He then enabled her plan to destroy her enemies at the Sept Bombing and seemed utterly OK with that, even going so far as to be the one who crowned "Cersei of the House Lannister First of Her Name, Queen of the Andals and the First Men, Protector of the Seven Kingdoms. Long may she reign." So I'm not sure if his loyalty to Cersei is waning.
My guess would be that Qyburn remains loyal. If I was guessing who kills her, my gold dragons would have been on Arya prior to last Sunday, but I think it is unlikely that Arya kills 2/2 of the Big Bads in the story, so I'm not sure who is going to take her out (and I am pretty sure someone will). Maybe Jaime has finally realized the toxic nature of their relationship?
22 hours ago, gingerella said:With all those dead, they’ll have to burn them right?
No need to without the Night King to resurrect them, I don't think. A simple burial should suffice.
22 hours ago, gingerella said:there is nobody to put fresh magic into the Wall.
I think Bran, Dany, and the dragon(s) are the only magical creatures left that I can think of. No idea if any of them are capable of repairing The Wall, but it doesn't seem likely.
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1 hour ago, Anothermi said:
By 3 (or was it 4) of the Seven, I dub thee Sir Kentucky Fried Hound.
It would be wrong to respond with anything except "I'm no Ser." 😉
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18 hours ago, Llywela said:
Also on my mind, the way A Show is slowly but systematically wiping out bloodline after bloodline - the Baratheons, the Tyrells, the Martells, the Umbers, the Freys, now the Mormonts.
A Show has been relentless about killing off noble houses. It is symptomatic of how costly the wars have been on The North that, at the start of S8 three of the named houses in The North were led by children (Umber, Karstark, and Mormont) and the preeminent house, Stark, was led by a teenager (Sansa).
Also extinguished are House Bolton (good riddance), and the Tullys of Riverrun are questionable (no intel on what happened to Edmure, his wife, and his baby in the dungeons of The Twins after Arya slaughtered the Freys). House Baratheon is guttering, but it isn't entirely extinguished - Dany could make Gendry a legitimate Baratheon, as Ramsay was made a legitimate Bolton and as Stannis offered to make Jon Snow into Jon Stark. There is just one (weak) Arryn left alive.
18 hours ago, Llywela said:I kept flashing back to season one and Jon's first arrival at The Wall and how no one really knew there was anything more terrible beyond it than Wildlings
And grumpkins and snarks.
18 hours ago, Llywela said:Yes, Arya was using the weapon Gendry made her when she was fighting up on the battlements
That was badass.
12 hours ago, Llywela said:My point is: it was a devastating, brutal battle, and lots of people got into trouble during it and needed their allies to come to their rescue.
And it is a very good point. I just wish Sam had been given a job that was more in line with his strengths by someone who knew him. Like, maybe his best friend, Jon. I will miss Edd, and always remember this from Crasters (after the defeat at the Fist of the First Men)...
Grenn: When people talk about the Night's Watch, they never mention the shoveling.
Edd: Or the shit.
Grenn: They tell you about honor, pardoning crimes, and protecting the realm, but shoveling really is most of it.
Edd: And getting attacked or killed or worse.
Grenn: And that. But when you're not getting attacked or killed, usually you're shoveling.
Edd: Oh, look. More shit. I was starting to wonder what to do with the rest of me day.
8 hours ago, Anothermi said:I may have assumed Rhaegal's death due to never seeing him again - even after the battle. Guess I forgot the Rules of A Show. It the death is not shown? It wasn't a death.
I think I assumed that there was one dragon left, and that Jon would discover dead Ghost surrounded by dead zombonis in the next episode - but now I have hope!
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I have been out of town on a business trip. I had to watch this in a hotel room on a meh TV and no ability to pause or rewind (which SUCKED), but I wanted to swing by when I had a non-working moment to say how much I thought this episode ROCKED. It was horrifying and thrilling and emotional in all the best ways. All of the time Arya spent in Braavos, all of the time she spent erasing her Stark identity and then finding her way back to it, all of those interminable "training" sessions at the House of B&W, all of it was all worth it because Arya SAVED the WORLD! WITH KNIFEY!!
I still can't believe that episode. I am just itching to re-watch it, and stoked to see what happens next. I thought the Doomed Charge of the Dothraki was visually wonderful and the first of many gut punches. I thought it was very much in-character for them to charge into the storm, since they had swept aside every other obstacle in Westeros since arriving and had no fear of death. The flaming scythes flickering out in clumps was my first notion that this might all go horribly wrong (and a nice way to avoid the added complication of using horses in a battle scene that looked mostly shot at night). I loved the beats between Sansa and Tyrion in the crypt. Their children would be the smartest damn people in Westeros. I loved the fact that Jorah got the death that would have been his FIRST choice out of all the possible deaths in the world. I love that we know now why Berrick kept being brought back - to save Arya. Mel's job was to remind Arya of her fortune telling from all those years ago - "eyes you will close forever: brown eyes, green eyes, blue eyes". And then Mel went even further into Arya's past and somehow knew to ask Arya "what do we say to the god of death?", when the God of Death was knocking at the gates. Theon became Theon again, and the last bit of penance owed for all he did to the Starks was paid. The littlest fighter, Lyanna, stabbed a zomboni giant in the eye! Just amazing scene after amazing scene.
I do find myself questioning some of the strategic decisions, like having the non-warriors hiding in a place full of dead folks that it totally going to be safe when a creature whose entire power comes from his ability to raise the dead shows up - what could go wrong?!? I had a hard time tracking what was going on there, but I trust that Headless Zombie Ned was not one of the creatures crawling out of their grave. Can't wait to see how they resolve the battle against Cersei - after dealing with with the Night King, it seems hard to care about who sits upon the Iron Throne, but there it is in the title of A Show.
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Great spitballing from y'all. Loving it, and terrrifying.
I'm out until sometime next week. May the gods have mercy on us all...
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25 minutes ago, Pallas said:
(About Benjen, we were only half-wight.)
(Joffrey slow-clap) Well played, Pallas, well played...
26 minutes ago, gingerella said:But perhaps no longer? Because it seems that you can gain control over and rule the Ironborn if you kill the next in line, then swing your dick on to the table and let everyone know you're the biggest of them all.
But they still elected Urine.
27 minutes ago, gingerella said:Knifey is V-steel yes?
Si.
Roddrick: (speaking in the godswood with Cat, Maester Luwin, Theon and Robb, a conference of the dead) Did you notice the dagger the killer used? It's too fine a weapon for such a man. The blade is Valyrian steel, the handle dragonbone. Someone gave it to him.-
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4 minutes ago, Pallas said:
In this world, the only society run on more democratic lines was, as it happens, the Free Folk -- where a manifest leader from outside the culture united the peoples but refused to be crowned or to be ruled. Also, to some degree, the Night's Watch, which elects its own leaders. Jon Snow does know something: he knows both these models.
The Ironborn's kingsmoot, as boring as that was, probably qualifies as some sort of representative government.
35 minutes ago, janjan said:Anyone else?
Arya had Knifey.
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10 hours ago, Llywela said:
how freshly dead do the dead have to be for the Night King to reanimate them?
Seven Hells! Ned's bones are going to reanimate and kill them all!!
ARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!!
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Dany could become Queen and sit on the Iron Throne, follow up on her promise to "break the wheel" by allowing each individual kingdom of the 7K to become independent, and fly off to Essos to rule over the city states around the Bay of Dragons. A long shot, granted, but there is an army of the dead marching thru Westeros, so long shots are paying off just now.
Speaking of long shots, I think there is a chance, just a chance, that we lose only a couple main characters (and a few minor characters) this Sunday. In every other "big battle scene", what characters have we lost in the end? Davos' son at the Battle of the Blackwater, Pyp, Grenn, and Ygritte at the Battle of Castle Black, some recently-introduced characters at Hardhome, Rickon, Wun Wun, Lord Umber, and that Bolton asshat at Battle of the Bastards, and... ?
Other than Ygritte and Ramsay, it is hard to make the argument that any of them were more than a pretty minor character (though Wun Wun's "Snow" was a pretty awesome line, and Grenn's recitation of the NW vows as a freaking GIANT was coming down the tunnel under The Wall still gave me chills on re-watch). So maybe just a few folks die. A little lite death. Perhaps the writers were consciously screwing with our expectation, such as when "narrative arcs" are finished or when characters plan for their retirement OUT LOUD before a dangerous assignment, that there are certain signals that TV uses to foreshadow the imminent demise of a character?
I am certainly not optimistic that this is the direction A Show is going to go ("haha, got you all worried for [mostly] nothing! PSYCH!"), and I feel like I am grasping at straws, but when straws are all you have, time for some straw soup.
(WhiteStumbler slurps down straw soup like Tormund drinking whatever was in his horn)
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38 minutes ago, walnutqueen said:
No matter what happens, I am certain I will be utterly gutted.
The only death that wouldn't leave me gutted would be Cersei, like if she changed her mind and showed up at Winterfell just as the AotD attacks and got an ice spear in the heart for her troubles.
This episode left me in tatters. I can make a plausible case for anyone (and nearly everyone) at Winterfell dying next episode. I think the only survivors that I would put money on would be Dany and/or Jon, The Hound (unfinished business with The Mountain), one dragon (not the icy undead one), and Sansa. Everyone else is amongst the potential dead.
How wonderful was Pod's song? As A Viewer of A Show that is drawing the curtain down, I can certainly relate to the last bit...
They spun her around
On the damp old stones
Spun away all her sorrow and pain
And she never wanted to leave
Never wanted to leave
Never wanted to leave
Never wanted to leave
Never wanted to leave
Never wanted to leave-
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5 hours ago, janjan said:
Soon to be scion of House Tarly, despite being a Wildling bastard born of incest.
As soon as Sam and Gilly marry and he makes Little Sam legitimate, House Tarley will have a new heir. Sam lending (giving? I don't recall) Jorah the Valyrian steel sword was so perfect. It seems so obvious now, but I dodn't see it coming.
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In the Opening, it was cool that the flipped tiles did creep closer to Winterfell.
But also - UGH.There was a "calm before" quality to this episode, like the happy wedding celebration at the Twins before The Rains of Castamere started playing, or Bronn and The Hound drinking before the Battle of Blackwater, but it lasted an entire episode. It will make whatever follows even more heartbreaking. I keep thinking about the title of an old song from the mid 80's - Are You Ready To Be Heartbroken? There were some poignant moments that felt like characters taking their leave of each other. Grey Worm talking about his retirement with Missandei to Naath aboard the SS Live4Ever felt very ominous. Ditto Jorah telling Dany 'yeah, Tyrion was the right choice for hand'. I think The Hound and Arya are safe - they didn't get to actually close the loop on their story.
Arya and Gendry hooking up was expected but oddly touching and so appropriate that it happened in the crypt. I am thinking now about how Robert Baratheon asked Ned Stark to be Hand of the King down there and said "We were meant to rule together. If your sister had lived, we'd have been bound by blood. Well, it's not too late. I have a son, you have a daughter. We'll join our Houses."
I always love the score to GoT, and this episode had a nice musical head nod when Davos and Gilly were trying to convince the girl that the crypts were the safest place, I noticed the music was based on the nursery song that Shireen sang back in S3E5 about the birds have scales and the fish take wing. So Davos is a goner.
Actually, there might be a scenario where we don't loose all that many secondary characters and maybe 1 or 2 primary character before the NK is defeated (primary characters to me = Tyrion, Arya, Cersei, Sansa, Dany, Bran, Jon, Theon, Sam, and Jaime, based on their having been our window into significant parts of the story by themselves and/or on screen time). Of this list Theon and Jaime are the most likely to bite it.
Speaking of Jaime, his conversation with Bran was just amazing - of course it had to be underneath the weirwood tree! Of course Jaime just flat out apologizes! Of course Bran was above having a human reaction! "How do you know there is an afterwards?" I also wish that at least half an episode could be devoted to just Tyrion and Bran telling each other their stories.
And JAIME KNIGHTED BRIENNE! Woo hoo! That was just a great moment, and we finally got to hear the entire charge.
I think it was Pod's singing voice that made the ladies tremble back at the KL brothel when they wouldn't take his money.
Dany showed some growth, she seemed more trying to figure out how to work with allies rather than subjects, but she will always resort to imperious and haughty when challenged. Considering that her entire identity since the end of S1 has been 'the Iron Throne is mine by right', I thought she handled Jon's info dump about his real parents with relative calm. I will guess that before the end, it will create a moment of doubt when she is trying to protect him or vice versa.
Next week is going to be bonkers.
17 hours ago, gingerella said:Okay, enough whining about that.
Whinging: When your lips move and you're complaining about something. 😂
14 hours ago, Anothermi said:We learned that the NK has tried to wipe out all their history three (3) times but each time there was someone who had learned how to gather it back and keep it available. Now we know why the NK "marking" Bran was so important. Perhaps, instead of the TER being a way to keep track of the activities of the WW (my speculation)... it was the gift the CotF gave the 1st men to ensure they would keep track of themselves! (altered speculation).
This was just tossed out as an aside in a brief conversation. Ugh. TELL ME MORE, YOU WEIRD THREE BRAN RAVEN! My guess is that the CotF also created the 3ER so that humans would have a storehouse of knowledge to call upon when they need to defeat the NK. Would the end of one mean the end of the other? IDK.
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2 hours ago, janjan said:
Other media are also getting on that particular bandwagon.
NONONO! It is MY spitball! 😆😆😆😆
I am trying to think of how A Show could head-fake us, though...
Maybe the WWs and the Army of the Dead are not the threat they have been built up to be and, once the NK is dispatched (by whatever means), the real action is the Targ / Stark / Arryn assault on KL. BTW I hope they find a way to include the Dornish army somewhere this season - they are the last army that hasn't seen combat (Tyrell army was defeated off-screen) and I would looove to see an army of fighters like Oberyn.
Or the NK bypasses Winterfell entirely and makes a beeline for KL, with the potential to add a million + zombonis to his army!
Or the last shot of the series is all of the survivors on Pyke, looking at a distant shore lined with glinting blue-eyed corpses, as the sea slooooowly starts to freeze over. Fade to black, no soundtrack as the credits roll.
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17 minutes ago, Anothermi said:
And Jon is going to need some time to process this and there isn't much time to spare.
Plus, what is going to carry more water with Jon - "your weird half brother had a vision" or "your best friend discovered it in a book and put it all together"?
It had to come from Sam.
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S08.E06: The Iron Throne
in The Unsullied Habitat
And many of the other Great Houses had been obliterated. I agree that it felt... "rushed" if I am being charitable.
Dany kept listening to her advisors. She kept losing. A Show backed the character into a corner, so attacking KL was really the only option. I have written a lot more about her burning of KL in a new topic.
Exactly! We didn't even see the character for an entire season. He never felt like part of the main narrative, the one that the ENTIRE SHOW WAS NAMED FOR.
Or at least in two different seasons! A lot of this season felt like the first draft of the final 2 seasons that got compressed into one due to budget constraints. So frustrating.