DR14
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Posts posted by DR14
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The big changes for me is three things
1) I think they needed to at some point make Bruce the lead character if they were intending for this to become a pre-Batman show rather than a show about Gotham City that just happened to have Bat-verse characters in it. Jim Gordon as a lead worked with the latter approach, but not the former. The seeds were planted in S2 with the Galavan arc, and Galavan made clear Bruce was his enemy.
I would have made Bruce the lead character for good after his first battle with Jerome in The Gentle Art of Making Enemies (just rewatched this episode, boy was it a better "Joker confrontation" than Ace Chemicals). After Bruce's conversation with Alfred here it just felt right with the "I will not kill" and Alfred replying "Let's get to work".
2) They were too cavalier in using Hugo Strange (and Ivy with Selina) as a deus ex machina to the point character deaths meant little. Maybe less suspense, shock value, and more character development. To that end I wouldn't have written off Selina's mom so soon. Having her on the show to help Selina's development for the rest of the third season and Season 4 would have been better than having Selina pushed out of a window and the whole Sirens thing in S4. We only get three episodes of her.
3) To go along with that they ended their intriguing plot lines too quickly (Penguin being major with Ed helping him, Bruce being a vigilante, etc), while giving lots of attention to less intriguing stories (Fish Mooney's dollmaker arc in S1, Jim/Lee, etc).
A few minor things:
1) I wouldn't have killed off Jerome in S2 only to bring him back later, send him to Arkham.
2) Would have written off Lee completely after S3.
3) Ivy recasts, no.
4) Why does Gotham need Batman? Oswald and Ed were locked up and Joker was 'comatose' and the GCPD seemed to handle things fine. The bomb plot was foiled without Batman's involvement.
Final thing:
Some die-hard comic nerds wouldn't like it but I wouldn't have had a 10-year time skip either. David Mazouz and Camren Bicondova needed to finish their characters off and I wouldn't have complained a bit if he had a proto-Bat suit and Camren had a suit like what Lili wore. Had the show done my suggestions I'm not even sure a time-skip would have ever been needed for them.
A fun show still, I'll miss it and would watch a sequel with the original cast.
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37 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:
Would this Bruce even be able to have his playboy persona since most of his friends and enemies know he's in love with Selina.
He could do "billionaire asshole", but yeah, the playboy thing wouldn't work unless he had a pretty public breakup with her which probably wouldn't happen.
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As I expected it'd be, it felt more like a pilot episode of a sequel show we won't see. If I could make one wish for a TV show though it'd be a sequel show with the cast we've come to know and love these past few years.
This ride has had some bumps along the way but I'm sad it's over.
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^What he said.
Camren impressed me big time. She's my favorite Selina and my Batman fandom goes back to the early 90's.
It's probably too big a hope to want her and David playing their characters in a Batman movie 5-10 years from now, but they carried this show really for a lot of its run and the reason I stuck with the show.
I'll miss her playing Selina.
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1 hour ago, SimoneS said:
Wait, there are people making fun of Camren's body? Is this on social media? WTF! I saw someone posted here some vague comment about how Camren grew up. I couldn't figure out what that was about.
Yeah, it's social media, sigh. I've read some people's comments on pics she posts after reading her farewell to Gotham tweet.
She occasionally posts some generic tweets alluding to people who make fun of people's looks, so that and her resignation tweet kinda prompted me to see if what I suspected was true.
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I respect her choice, but the reason I hate recasts is that it creates impossible shoes to fill. Fans of Gotham have had five years to invest in the main characters.
I'm sure her replacement will do her best, but she'll never replace Camren and I hope Camren thought of that.
Whatever her reason, I hope it's not related to haters making fun of her body type, I did a side-to-side look and couldn't tell much difference
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23 minutes ago, Camera One said:
Yes. I was trying to figure out what Bane added to the season or Jim's development. Basically nothing. What's the point of the two of them having a backstory when it made zero difference? They could have substituted Bane's role with any other villain or even an anonymous second-in-command. When characters could be switched in and out with no repercussion, then the story is just generic.
Unfortunately it's a problem dating back to mid-Season 2 with the Mr. Freeze arc. The writers just bringing in Bat-rogues because reasons.
I think they got caught in the trap of thinking in order for this show to be a pre-Batman show they needed to showcase as many Bat-rogue origin stories as possible (with their spin of course), when it would've made more sense to keep the number of Gotham's Bat-rogues small.
In hindsight the main storylines in S1 should've been a series-long theme, with Penguin steadily rising, Riddler slowly losing his **** at the GCPD, and the mob families slowly gaining more control over the city after the Wayne Murders to the point Batman is needed.
Generally in the comics Batman usually deals with the mob first, then the real nutjobs come out of the woodwork.
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And they REALLY didn't need to bring in new characters either. You're already in a bind to try and wrap this thing up in 12 episodes and you bring in folks like Bane and Nyssa?
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7 hours ago, Danielg342 said:
On the other hand...given the episodes before it...this finale is kind of...weird? Where next week is a pilot for a series we won't see, this episode feels like the finale of a series we didn't see either. It was merely an episode that hurriedly established things so that the story could move on to the "Batman" phase and acted like it closed the book on a series that was much better and tightly told than what actually transpired.
It felt like a "grand finale" for a show that, well, while having hints of grandiose, never seemed to actually get there. It was a bittersweet close, the kind of close where I sit and think about what the show could have been instead of what it actually was.
I think there was too much overpromising. The Season 3 finale was the epitome of this. I didn't really care for the episode itself but it strongly teased a new phase that never ended up happening.
I would be more accepting of Bruce ending his arc by going away to train had the show hinted at it earlier, instead we were promised vigilante Bruce learning to become 'Batman', when in reality that arc lasted five episodes and the writers basically using a time skip to cover themselves, the same happened with Selina too. She gets the whip but is basically a Sirens tag along who doesn't do much on her own accord.
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-I guess now we see why Selina ends up stealing lots of nice things only mostly the wealthy have, perhaps to remind her of Bruce. The show never really developed that, so I guess I'll take that guess then
-Despite a disappointing season, I liked this episode. It honestly should've been the finale because it felt like it. Next episode is a pilot of a show we won't get to see.
-I'm also glad Barbara wasn't killed off and Jim naming his kid after her cause of that.
-Thank you cast for your tremendous work. And a special shout-out to David, Camren, Robin, Cory, Sean, and Ben. I would definitely watch a Batman movie or show with them reprising their roles.
-David and Camren just deserve to be the Bat and the Cat in the future. The show began with them being the first ones shown, and this one ended with them being the last.
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49 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:
I'm sure there's a few Gothamites who felt the city needed remodelling.
That's about all I can say. This season has been a pure drag...and an utter disappointment. Glad there's only two episodes left.
Yeah, I'll watch til the finale but Season 1 to "The Gentle Art of Making Enemies" in S3 is the only portion of this show that for me has any rewatch value.
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Season 4 overall was rather meh. It started off pretty good, I found Oswald getting his revenge for his mother pretty gratifying. But I can't say I cared for much of the rest of it. No one really progressed in my view. Maybe it was a byproduct of Season 3 moving things too quickly but in any case, there's a lot next season needs to achieve. As for Bruce, I don't think he necessarily needs to become Batman but I do think we need at least a reason why he would want to dress up like a bat and him using gadgets, etc more and working with Lucius more, Like I said in an earlier post, if the show can't use Batman maybe the show ends with him going away to train (and maybe IF there's a sequel show in a few years it can pick up with him returning to Gotham).
Every minute this show spends on whatever the heck they're doing with Barbara is a minute of wasted screentime. I like her decently enough, but she does not need this much focus (when Selina was with her and Tabs it was still all about Barbara) and her feminist-sctick is so forced. I can see Ivy on this show being that way (abusive father, treated poorly by Oswald, etc), but Barbara, I'm not buying it. If anything she's the epitome of privilege (grew up wealthy, has had her own moments of power over others, etc).
I also recently heard already of a few characters that are gonna be added next season, just please no...
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We need to see how this Bruce ends up wanting to have a Bat persona in his vigilantism. We saw a bit of it this season in that one episode, but hopefully it is zeroed in more.
Selina simultaneously wanting to have a persona of her own and given reasons for doing so needs to happen too.
Regardless of everything else, watching those iconic characters in particular literally grow up on screen has been a treat. Which we could have gotten that with Ivy. S4 promised to be big in the development of those characters. I thought they were pretty hit/miss, especially with Selina. Season 5 needs to be hit 100%
I'd like to see no new villains introduced. The cast needs to be trimmed, not added to.
Bruce also needs to interact with Oswald and especially Ed more. Bruce has to my knowledge only had one scene with Ed in the entire run of the show.
I would like to also see Selina interact with the main cast more besides just Bruce. Disclaimer: Please note I adore them together and maybe this can happen simultaneously, but she also needs scenes with Jim, Ed, Oswald, etc.
As for the final scene, I'm honestly warming up to the idea of Bruce telling Selina he is going away to train, especially if Batman cannot be shown for some reason. It'd be rather poetic of the show to end with them being the last two characters shown after they were the first two shown in the pilot.
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If S5 is the final season, we need to see how this Bruce ends up wanting to have a Bat persona in his vigilantism. We saw a bit of it this season in that one episode, but hopefully it is zeroed in more.
Selina simultaneously wanting to have a persona of her own and given reasons for doing so needs to happen too.
Regardless of everything else, watching those iconic characters in particular literally grow up on screen has been a treat. Which we could have gotten that with Ivy. S4 promised to be big in the development of those characters. I thought they were pretty hit/miss. Season 5 needs to be hit 100%
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29 minutes ago, superloislane said:
I can't believe that Ra's actually did want Barbara to be the next Demon's Head. It makes no sense to me - he never treated her like she was his equal so how could he think she would be perfect to take his place? And why was he messing with Bruce all that time - to get him to kill him? Why is Bruce the only one who can kill him if he wasn't supposed to be Ra's heir like he said? There were no explanations in this episode and it's bugging me so much.
This show violates its own canon whenever it sees fit, I guess.
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43 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:
This was filler, through and through. The last several minutes were kind of cool...but this show has a history of ominous endings that don't deliver.
Where was the structure this show had earlier this season? I miss that show.
This show really could learn to slowplay their juicy storylines.
Oswald/Ed partnership in S3 could've been dragged out much longer, as could have the Sofia/Oswald power plays earlier this season.
Bruce and Selina weren't an official couple that long either, her mother could've been a longer plotline. Although I guess they've patched up things.
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4 hours ago, Danielg342 said:
Tell me there's some kind of technical issue because all I get from the link is a blank page.
Unfortunately, it wouldn't surprise me if someone got so offended by it (regardless of the actual content raised in the review) they got the powers that be to remove it.
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10 minutes ago, Kathemy said:
I'll just say when I am done with my review of this there will be a ton of tumblrinas really angry with me, but that can't be helped.
The show couldn't have been more on the nose with the "hate da men" narrative than they were this week for sure.
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18 hours ago, Biggie B said:
Not into Tesch at all and should've fast forwarded past his scenes. Even Jerome is failing to hold my attention.
Bruce and Selena are great. I love that Bruce can drive now. But this is the second episode without Alfred, and I miss him!
I think this was also the first episode that I liked Barbara. Curious to see where this all goes.
I missed Lee, but there's only so much that can be jammed into one hour.
I think a lot of Jerome's appeal was based on the belief he would become the Joker. With the actors teasing he won't be, it took that away.
I still don't know what exactly they're doing with that, but I think it would've been better if the show left that to fan interpretation.
I have no idea where this show is going. Tetch and Scarecrow being involved seem random to me and I think Bruce's urgency to bring Jerome in would've made more sense if he was the one involved in the many people on rooftops thing rather than Tetch.
Barbara being the new head of the League of Shadows was...something. Not really quite buying her as an equal to Ra's yet, but we'll see. Tabitha actually looks more the part than she does IMO. Would like to see more Ra's soon, he's been pretty underutilized this season, and I had thought he'd be the main bad dude before the season started. The season 3 finale teased it big time. Also, I'm now not quite sure why Ra's wanted Bruce to kill him now. Was Barbara his backup plan or something? I thought his plan was for Bruce to take his place. I would think Talia would be mighty ticked that Barbara's taken her birthright (assuming she even exists in this universe).
The BatCat scenes were great as usual. This show really f'ed up dropping this dynamic as long as they did.
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15 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:
I really like the Ivy storyline. I thought it was cleverly done. Then again I don't hate the actress who plays her and thinks she is fine in the roll. Not particularly great but not awful either. Honestly I don't get the hate for her.
It's giving Selina much needed focus apart from the Sirens where she's pretty much a tagalong.
Not sure why they needed to recast. The storyline is fine, List needs to turn it up several notches though. She doesn't ooze threatening like Crystal Reed does.
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1 hour ago, Kathemy said:
Peyton List is horrible in the role. Strike that, she just might be just horrible. I haven't watched her in anything else but from what I hear she's supposed to be a good actress, but on Gotham, she might be the only character more wooden-acted than Jim Gordon. It's like watching paint dry.
And the most horrible thing of all is that this entire script could have been played by Clare Foley and it would have been a tremendous improvement. Ivy would be far more menacing if she was all these things - if she'd "changed a lot", which was just Selina trying to sell her "awesome villainousness" - and she still looked like a tiny little girl.
That's because actually, Cameron Monaghan isn't that bloody great an actor. It's the perfect casting and the scripts that have made him a standout, not his phenomenal skills. Sure, he's good, but he's no better than David, Robin, Cory or even Erin.
Don't think it's random. It seems a reference to Carmine Falcone, who raised chickens. Show didn't let us forget that either (Sofia referenced it this season.)
My random addition - boy, did Robin ever jump at the romantic Nygmobblepot angle and totally run away with it in that scene with Edward. "You're still in there." Wow, just wow. All he had to act against was a tiny piece of paper and you just saw him completely overcome with emotion. This is why that ship is so beloved.
Agree. To me the Oswald/Ed, Selina/Jim, and Bruce scenes were what stood out to me. Jerome was just...there.
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-Well, there's the Bat symbolism.
-Oswald/Ed
-Selina is much, much better when she's not a Sirens tagalong, liked the show revisiting her complicated relationship with Jim, even if it's only for one episode.
-Bratbruce was fun, but glad it's moved on.
-Jerome didn't stand out as much as I thought he would.
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LOL at this show's producers. Charlie Tahan turns 20 in June this year. Why not just keep him?
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Season 4 hasn't exactly been a ship friendly season on Gotham though, in fairness.
Sofia/Jim is a joke.
Gotham do-over thread
in Gotham
· Edited by DR14
I wasn't that big a fan of the S3 finale, but one thing it did do well was show us a city in shambles and the GCPD not being quite enough to protect the city thus needing a vigilante.
When Bruce had that final rooftop scene I thought, finally, we're gonna get a Bruce-focused show with him learning the ropes and everything about vigilantism.
That was what this finale missed. Jim was contemplating a happy retirement, not at his whit's end.