hellmouse
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Posts posted by hellmouse
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3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:
For somebody like Paige I can imagine that she would say she didn't now them because the lied, but Paige is particularly inflexible about that sort of thing, imo. I think she'd be more put off by new information about people she knows more than some.
Interesting point. Paige was insistent about being told the truth about many things, but there were some things she really didn't ask about. After Elizabeth killed the mugger, she basically told Paige that she did not know how many people she had killed, which has to mean it's a big number. But Paige never asked anything more. She never asked Philip if he had killed anyone.
For all her fascination with their relationship, she never asked how they met or when they got married or anything like that. To me, that would have been something she'd be curious about, even before finding out they were Russian spies.
There might have been some part of her thinking that didn't allow her to ask questions she really wasn't sure she wanted the answers to. There may have been some new information about her parents that she did not want to know.
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14 hours ago, sistermagpie said:
Just thought of that in reading this about Nina because it does seem like whatever she's doing there, it's a completely idiosyncratic act that means something to her in that moment but isn't strategically logical. That's probably partly why Arkady is so upset that it seems so perverse.
Paige's actions at the end are similar. She's less mature and self aware than Nina, but she too is making a choice that is entirely her own.
I've thought that there could be an element of self-punishment or penance in what she is doing, although later I decided that was me applying my own Catholic childhood to her, and so might not be correct. But there is something both freeing and self-destructive in Nina's decision and in Paige's choice too. I think Nina regretted it in the moment her sentence was read out. I think Paige will have regrets too, but both of them made a choice to take a very different path than the one laid out in front of them by the authorities in their lives, one that required them to be something they, for whatever reason, could no longer be.
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They have listed some of the outfits Elizabeth wore in season 4, when they were hiding Keri Russell's pregnancy. Based on the sizes, she was still so tiny! A Kid's Large vest in S4E08 (when they were playing hockey after the seven-month time jump) and an XS sweater and 12 petite pair of pants in S4E13. Wow.
And they listed Philip's old-man-in-McDonald's-en-route-to-Canada outfit, and Elizabeth's S6 smoking sweater. I wonder if it will smell like cigarettes. They should have included a flowerpot filled with butts too, lol.
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4 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:5 hours ago, Bannon said:
You're just gonna have to trust me that people, who have weapons trained on them by angry people, don't engage in heavily verbalization with the angry person about feelings, motivations, and details of their lives over the past several years, and the angry person with the weapon doesn't either.
Not to mention the fact that Philip and Elizabeth don't know that Stan is confronting them alone. They would at least think that there is a boatload of backup on the way, and "let's not waste time here, we gotta boogie."
I agree that the idea of people having a long conversation with someone pointing a gun at them doesn't make sense. But the only thing that makes this situation slightly different is that Philip and Elizabeth are KGB officers who have handled all kinds of situations with angry people before. They've murdered people. They have talked their way out of situations. They're constantly assessing their options as a situation unfolds. They are not going to surrender without every effort to get out. In this case, Philip decides that the weapon best suited to disarm Stan is emotional honesty and manipulation. He is like a gambler placing a bet that Stan will not shoot, that Stan is susceptible to appeals to his emotion, and that there aren't 100 FBI agents outside the building. He gets an unexpected assist on the emotional side from the things Paige says, who is transparently a poor liar and therefore more believable. Elizabeth wisely keeps mostly quiet since she is more likely to provoke Stan's anger. Philip knows that his bet is paying off as Stan gradually lowers the gun.
Should it have worked? IDK. But it did.
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Two things that struck me after watching the finale again:
1) I liked that Philip was the one who went into the McDonald's and Elizabeth stayed in the car. It was his last moment of ultimate Americana. That McDonalds was the most McDonalds-looking McDonalds I've ever seen. The sign was so bright and big. The building itself brightly lit, while all around it was darkness. It was so American. It's the equivalent of the U2 song in terms of familiarity. It was almost like an ad for McDonald's, with that happy family sitting there, probably eating happy meals. It broke my heart to see old-looking Philip look over at them. But it was also a reminder that his family is not young anymore, and they wouldn't be even if he were staying in America. Kids grow up. Families change. That happy family has its own secrets and future joy and pain ahead. Some part of him recognizes that. And as he said to Paige, he lets himself feel it, rather than denying the feeling.
2) I liked that Elizabeth was the one driving the car when they crossed the border into Russia. She paused before going up to the gate, and they looked at each other, and to me, it seemed like they were acting as they did on their operations. They had a mission to complete - to get the info to Arkady - and they were going to do it. They were together, and they were in agreement about what they were doing. But she was the one driving. That seemed fitting to me. Also the shot of the crack in the pavement as they entered the USSR seemed symbolic of the break with the past and the damage done. The road doesn't end and neither do their lives. But it's not new or smooth or easy.
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Some of these auction items make me laugh and others make me sad because I feel like the FBI went through the Jennings' home, and rather than forward their clothes to Russia back in 1987 they just held on to them for 31 years and are now selling them on e-bay. All those nice shoes and bags and silk blouses of Elizabeth's!
This one made me laugh: Henry Jennings's black box with photos - the one with the photos of Sandra Beeman!
They also have Stan's family photo album and Paige's bible. I wonder if the bible has the pages ripped out.
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A few articles with quotes from the recent ATX festival in Austin.
Short article at Deadline Hollywood: ‘The Americans’: Cast & Creators Joke Potential Spinoffs, Keri Russell & Matthew Rhys Talk Spy Love – ATX
Longer article at Indiewire: ‘The Americans’ Finale: Cast and Creators Dig Deep for New Answers to the Series’ Wild Endings. Some good quotes from the cast about Stan and Renee, how Philip feels about being in Russia, why Paige got off the train.
Pictures at Hollywood Reporter: On the Set of 'The Americans' as Keri Russell, Matthew Rhys Bid Farewell to Series. Pics from on-set filming of Harvest, mostly at the house location. A few quotes. I liked this picture.
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I haven't seen this video posted. It's a panel discussion called "Reel vs Real with the CIA and FX's The Americans", moderated by Joe Weisberg. There are five panelists: Keri Russell, Matthew Rhys, Costa Ronin and from the CIA, Martha Peterson, former CIA officer and author of the book “The Widow Spy” and Mark Kelton, former Chief of CIA's Counterintelligence Center.
I found it fascinating. They discuss tradecraft, running agents, and the emotional toll of being a spy. Peterson and Kelton share real-life stories of their experiences (obviously not all of it!) and the actors answer questions about their characters and preparation, etc. I enjoyed seeing how the actors had questions for the real CIA officers, and the officers were clearly familiar with the show and seemed to be positive about it. They did point out that there is a lot more sex and violence on the show than in real-world spying, and also that real-world spies would never run as many simultaneous operations as they did on the show. But in terms of the emotional toll, they felt it was believable.
It starts at the 49 minute mark, so unless you want to watch 49 minutes of a silent empty stage, I'd suggest starting there.
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In one of their interviews, the show runners discuss the garage scene between Stan and Philip and how they moved part of it in editing.
QuoteJoel Fields: .... The other thing I think about with that scene is that we didn’t stop rewriting that scene even after we shot it. In fact, there’s a chunk of that scene that in editing we took and moved because as beautiful as the scene was on set, when we saw it in the cut, there was something about it that didn’t feel like it had quite the right dynamic, emotional flow to it. And by moving a section of the scene, suddenly, it all gained this clarity.
Todd VanDerWerff: What section was that?
Joe Weisberg
It was when [Stan] was saying, “It was you who killed [Gennadi and Sofia].” It had initially come a little bit earlier.
(Vox interview: The Americans series finale’s greatest secrets, explained by its showrunners)
So I re-watched the scene and I am trying to figure out where Stan would have said it, and how much of what comes after that was moved as well. The scene has a few big components. In the first section, Stan questions Paige; tells them it's over and tells them to lie on the ground, then Philip says "we had a job to do". That starts the second section, which I put in the quote box. Then the third section is Philip explaining everything, and the final section is them driving away.
I think that the Gennadi and Sofia chunk that was moved might be the whole part in bold, and it might have originally come right after Philip tells him "We had a job to do."
QuoteHow the scene aired:
STAN: Lie down on the ground. All of you.
ELIZABETH: Stan
PHILIP: What are you going to do, shoot us?
STAN: On the ground, face down, keep your hands where I can see them. Move slow.
ELIZABETH: Stan, we're not lying on the ground. Not while you have that gun pointing at us. This is Paige, Stan.
STAN: Stop, Elizabeth. Just stop. It's over. It's all over.
PHILIP: We had a job to do. We had a job to do.
STAN: You were my best friend.
PHILIP: You were mine too. I never wanted to lie to you. Stan, what else could I do? You moved in next to me. I was terrified. And then we ended up as friends.
STAN: Friends? You made my life a joke.
PHILIP: You were my only friend. In my whole shitty life. For all these years, my life was the joke. Not yours.
STAN: And Matthew? Was that part of this? My son...
ELIZABETH: She didn't know. She didn't know until...
PAIGE: I knew. They told me when I was 16. But Matthew, it had nothing to do with that. I just ... liked him.
STAN: Henry?
PHILIP: No.
PAIGE: He doesn't know anything.
STAN: All this time... I would have done anything for you, Philip. For all of you.
PHILIP: I know.
STAN: Did you... Gennadi and Sofia, that was you?
PHILIP: Who is that? We don't know who that is?
STAN: You fucking liar. I saw it on your face. When I told you about them. Do you know how many people have been killed by Soviet agents here in Washington in the last year? Five years? Ten?
PAIGE: I'm sorry.
ELIZABETH: We don't kill people. Jesus.
PHILIP: We wouldn't.
ELIZABETH: He doesn't even do this kind of work anymore. He quit. He's a travel agent now. That's all.
STAN: Get down. On the ground
(Philip sighs, looks down).
STAN: Get down.
PHILIP: I did all this stuff, Stan...
So I think it might have originally been in this order, with the bold section moved up. It's the only place that makes sense to me. Obviously I'm just guessing, but if this is the original flow of the scene, I think they were right to move it. It makes sense that he is angry, then hurt, then angry again, which then leads to Philip's "con man aria" as Emily Nussbaum called it.
QuotePossible original order
STAN: Lie down on the ground. All of you.
ELIZABETH: Stan
PHILIP: What are you going to do, shoot us?
STAN: On the ground, face down, keep your hands where I can see them. Move slow.
ELIZABETH: Stan, we're not lying on the ground. Not while you have that gun pointing at us. This is Paige, Stan.
STAN: Stop, Elizabeth. Just stop. It's over. It's all over.
PHILIP: We had a job to do. We had a job to do.
STAN: Did you... Gennadi and Sofia, that was you?
PHILIP: Who is that? We don't know who that is?
STAN: You fucking liar. I saw it on your face. When I told you about them. Do you know how many people have been killed by Soviet agents here in Washington in the last year? Five years? Ten?
PAIGE: I'm sorry.
ELIZABETH: We don't kill people. Jesus.
PHILIP: We wouldn't.
ELIZABETH: He doesn't even do this kind of work anymore. He quit. He's a travel agent now. That's all.
STAN: You were my best friend.
PHILIP: You were mine too. I never wanted to lie to you. Stan, what else could I do? You moved in next to me. I was terrified. And then we ended up as friends.
STAN: Friends? You made my life a joke.
PHILIP: You were my only friend. In my whole shitty life. For all these years, my life was the joke. Not yours.
STAN: And Matthew? Was that part of this? My son...
ELIZABETH: She didn't know. She didn't know until...
PAIGE: I knew. They told me when I was 16. But Matthew, it had nothing to do with that. I just ... liked him.
STAN: Henry?
PHILIP: No.
PAIGE: He doesn't know anything.
STAN: All this time... I would have done anything for you, Philip. For all of you.
PHILIP: I know.
STAN: Get down. On the ground
(Philip sighs, looks down).
STAN: Get down.
PHILIP: I did all this stuff, Stan...
What do other people think? Do you agree with my thought on where it might have been moved from? Do you think it matters?
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3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:
I agree there's a big change. It's quite possible a chance in the opposite direction, though. That's the way that is most consistent to me, though of course that's not on the show. To me her getting off the train means rejecting the lies, the same direction she was heading in earlier. It's not her finally becoming as tough about it as her parents. She's trying to find her own true self at last.
It seems like a totally different decision than being able to formulate a whole story in her head with no holes that she's going to stick to in the face of prolonged interrogation from people who know way more about things than she does.
Even people who are innocent have been known to crack under the kind of scrutiny she would be in for. It's not just a case of being able to lie or not. This isn't just them asking her if she was ever a spy and her saying nope, she wasn't over and over.
The level of strength Paige potentially discovered that got her off the train could, imo, see her through the difficult process of dealing with the fallout of things and trying to cut a deal. I can see her not going to jail. But her being able to lie her way through it is a change more on the level of her getting superpowers to me. It's a different kind of strength and totally new skills. It would be like Martha getting off the train and being able to beat up guys like Elizabeth can.
I could see Paige wanting to be honest with the authorities as a way of punishing herself. I would imagine that she feels a lot of guilt mixed in with anger and sadness. Deciding to just be honest about everything, even if means going to jail, would be appealing to the judgmental part of herself. It would be a way to feel good and horrible at the same time.
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23 minutes ago, Bannon said:
Throughout the show, but especially the last season, there would occasionally be clunky dialogue. Stan's patriotic Thanksgiving toast, and Renee and Stan's career guidance talk at the kitchen sink made me chortle, too.
It's funny because I agree about Renee and Stan's career talk being really clunky, but I thought it was because Renee's sudden dream of being an FBI agent seemed so bizarre and Stan didn't really know how to respond to her bizarre comment. I assumed the conversation was clunky because it was a strange conversation. it made me think Renee was weird and suspicious and Stan was married to someone who he really didn't know very well. But YMMV of course.
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2 hours ago, Loandbehold said:
As for Paige and Henry, I believe that both will be interviewed and often by the FBI. Their parents were illegals who likely (as far as Aderholt and the CI division know) escaped to the Soviet Union. The FBI would want to know what, if anything, the kids know. (On a side note, given that Aderholt knows that he was friends w/ them, Stan would also be interviewed. A lot.) As of now, only Stan knows that Paige was aware of who her parents were. He doesn't know the extent of her spy activities. And, while Paige knows her parents were illegals, she only knows a little about what they actually did. She helped watch some people and took some pictures. She knows Claudia and Gabriel, but they're gone. She knows Liz seduced a Sam Nunn intern, but not what info Liz obtained as a result. She knows Liz was in the park when the General died, but she didn't see how it happened. This might prevent Liz from ever coming back into the U.S., but Paige can't say for sure that Liz killed him. Paige doesn't have any knowledge of any other murders committed by Philip and Liz. So, Paige can confess to her actions and the relatively little she knows about what her parents actually did, or she can try to keep quiet. If Stan's not in the room and she takes option 2, Stan might never know it. And, even if he finds out, he then has to choose between coming forward and admitting that he knew Paige was a spy b/c he found out when he let Phil, Liz, and Paige leave the garage w/o arresting them or keeping quiet. He might come forward, but, to protect Henry, he might not
I don't think Stan has any idea that Paige was involved in actually doing spy activities. All he knows is that they told her they were spies when she was 16.
But I'm sure Paige will tell him if he asks.
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I just realized that Paige will probably be able to identify the headless woman for the FBI. She knows Marilyn died in the Harvest op in Chicago. If she sees that picture... oh my. She'll know that one of her parents chopped off someone's head and hands. Talk about a wake up call.
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Article about Noah Emmerich's chances for Emmy nomination:
4 reasons Noah Emmerich (‘The Americans’) can finally sneak into the Emmy race
I do hope he's nominated. His performance in the final episode alone warrants a nomination.
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6 hours ago, Umbelina said:8 hours ago, Erin9 said:
In a show about relationships, that’s what I think we’re meant to focus on future wise. That’s what the finale was about. It wasn’t about prison or death for a reason.
The writers didn't INTEND anything, as you can see if you read that article. They didn't want to face the nearly inevitable ends for anyone so they left it up to the viewers. You can have relationships in prison. Or in a group home. Or in the country that's destroyed in large part because of your actions.
I think the writers intended the very thing that frustrates you and many others - they left "what happens" open-ended. The thing they were careful to show was the status of relationships: who is together, who is alone, etc. I would love to know what they think will happen to each character, but for me, it also is very true to my experience watching the show to not know what happens next. For me, it's consistent with the tone of this particular show.
I forget which article I read, but I will look for it - it was about the different types of series finales and the frustration/satisfaction that each provokes in the viewer (and of course, all viewers are different). I think the examples it cited were shows like Six Feet Under, Breaking Bad, The Sopranos. I will post it if I can find it!
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2 hours ago, Umbelina said:
We don't know anything about his mother,
The only thing I remember about his mother was the story he told Paige - that he had a job making rakes, and the boss didn't pay him. So his mother went to the boss and got all of his pay. But who knows when that was. Knowing how grim his life was, he could have been making rakes at the same agr he was when scraping the porridge pots.
Maybe after his father died his mother sent him to live with relatives in a city so he could have a better education because he was so smart, and so he lost contact with his mother and brother. Or maybe after he killed that boy with the rock his mother sent him away so he would not go to prison for murder. Maybe that was part of why the idea of Henry going away to school made him sad. WHO KNOWS. Grr. .
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I don't think these have been posted yet.
Collider: A long interview with some quotes I hadn't seen before: The Americans’ Stars and Showrunners Break Down That Epic Series Finale
Variety: A review by Caroline Framke, who used to be part of the Vox review team: The Americans’ Finale Was Surprising and Brilliant for What It Didn’t Do
Vulture: A close read of the garage scene in the finale: The Blistering Vulnerability of The Americans Finale’s Garage Scene
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13 minutes ago, Plums said:
like, it's crazy to me how different the show becomes. The whole CI division of the FBI hatches a rogue plot to abduct and murder the fucking Rezident in a retaliatory move, and this tit-for-tat escalating spy warfare goes on with Vlad being murdered and the CIA killing people in the USSR. Meanwhile, flash forward to Persona Non Grata, and the US's response to the KGB bugging their office, pursuing biological weapons, and the former division head being murdered is to just kick the Rezident out of the country and moan about how that's all they're ever able to do and nothing changes, like a proper bureaucratic institution. Stan becomes the only real maverick in the office after season 1, and the most he does is defy Frank Gaad, who suddenly cares about the red tape, into pursuing Oleg as a source and then defending Oleg when the CIA wants to blackmail him.
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That whole retaliation for Amador's murder plot was crazy to me. They try to create this huge, significant relationship between him and Stan to make it believable just how effected and particularly enraged Stan was at his death. But Amador was such a flat character, and it feels like he and Stan barely knew each other at all before he was killed. Stan had just moved to DC and joined CI at the start of the season, and Amador seemed to spend all his free time hooking up or stalking Martha when he wasn't encouraging Stan to cheat on his wife. Yet we're supposed to believe the relationship between them was so deep by the time Amador was killed that he'd have a picture of him and Stan sitting on his end table, among the pictures of his family? I definitely think he wasn't originally going to be killed off so soon.
I had the same reaction going back and rewatching Season 1. I am not an expert on the intelligence agencies at all, but I find it SO hard to believe that the head of FBI counter-intelligence decides that they're going to murder the KGB Rezident, in Washington DC, and plans it with a bunch of FBI and CIA agents at a freaking barbecue. The responses in later seasons were much more plausible and had more emotional weight.
Everything you say about Amador was my reaction too upon rewatch. He didn't bother me as much the first time I watched the show. But seeing how the show developed, he really just doesn't fit. His character is flat and one-dimensional. The fact that Stan murders someone in retaliation for his death makes Stan seem dangerously unhinged. The fact that Amador had a photo of Stan in his house made him seem kind of unhinged too. They had to insert flashbacks to even establish the fact that he wore a ring that everyone remembered he always wore.
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12 hours ago, Plums said:
The thing that gets me about it is that in those early episodes, it really felt like Gregory and his crew were a huge resource for them. I imagine them being like Hans, Marilyn and Norm were in the later seasons- the default, on-call surveillance team and general mission support. So Philip would have been super familiar with them as well, not just Elizabeth, even if Gregory was her agent. So the betrayal of not telling Philip about the relationship feels even worse somehow.
There's even a scene where Philip talks about Gregory with respect - about how if anyone could tell whether an FBI team was surveillance or support, it would be Gregory. So it implies that they've worked together before, and he thinks Gregory is good at what he does.
It's interesting to see how Philip reacts every time Gregory's name is even mentioned after the revelation. Whenever Elizabeth says "I'll signal Gregory", Philip looks conflicted. Like, he knows that yes, Gregory will do a good job, as he always has done, but he also must be thinking of all those times Gregory has been involved before, when Philip had no idea just how much more it was between him and Elizabeth.
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7 minutes ago, Umbelina said:
I'm trying to picture Philip in 14 LONG years without any love from Elizabeth. Talk about smitten! Not many men could have dealt with that, just because they loved someone.
Paige was 13 when the show began, and it wasn't until he killed Timochev that Elizabeth finally broke off her love affair with Gregory, and said to Philip "it never really happened for us, but I feel like it is...now."
I think he was devoted to the cause, and cared deeply about doing a good job. Once they had children, he probably not only loved them but felt loved in return. Honestly, lots of married couples can fall into a rut where they are not intimate but they are connected simply because they live together and share children.
But I think you're right that it must have been very painful for him. We see that in that episode where she announces that she's ready to have children. The look he gives her makes it seem like this was something he had tried to broach with her before, and always been rejected. And then in the episode when Gregory tells him all about how Elizabeth confided in him - the look on Philip's face is one of excruciating pain.
And to bring it back on topic, that scene - between Philip and Gregory - is one I didn't really appreciate the first time I watched it. I didn't understand just how devastated Philip was as he listened to Gregory because I didn't understand how much he loved Elizabeth. On rewatch, his reaction in that scene is really powerful.
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I doubt that they would really want to talk about it, but I've always thought that Stan and Philip could have an interesting conversation about the desire to exfiltrate a source in order to protect her; encountering resistance from their bosses; and ultimately the decision to do it anyway (Philip) or not do it (Stan). Philip accomplished what Stan wanted to do, even though Stan was the one who was actually in love with the agent he was running. Stan's actions might have been constrained by the fact that it's happening in the US and he therefore is more beholden to the law (although he murdered Vlad so IDK), whereas Philip is operating on enemy soil and so is already breaking the law. He's literally an illegal. Just as in the garage scene, the stakes are higher for Philip because his life is on the line and Stan's isn't.
To bring it back to Renee, I do find myself thinking that she is a spy. But I wonder if she knew that Philip and Elizabeth were also spies, or if she was in the dark about them as well. She never did anything to overtly help them. Is she surprised to find out that they were KGB? Her look at the house kind of reminded me of Tuan - there was some faint disapproval there, like if they'd done the right things they wouldn't have gotten caught. But I like to think that she's about to be caught too.
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This quiz is funny. I got them all right, which maybe fits better in the "you know you've been watching the Americans too much" thread, lol.
Who said it? Philip and Elizabeth From The Americans or Philip and Elizabeth From The Crown?
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One scene that always made me laugh was in S4 E1, Glanders, where Philip and Elizabeth talk about Henry's cologne and how disgusting it is. It's probably the only light note in that entire episode.
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2 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:
Thats practically a metaphor for Paige in general. She gets all excited about some new cause or person to get behind, but when it gets hard, she crumbles.
Yes, and it reminds me of back in the very beginning of the show, when Elizabeth described Paige as "delicate somehow". At the time, I took that in as Elizabeth talking about her daughter but really saying something about herself. She had just said that Henry was like Philip, he could adapt to anything. So I thought, aha, the audience knows that Elizabeth isn't aware that Paige is like her and therefore that she herself is delicate in some way.
But now, I think Elizabeth was right. Paige was delicate. Elizabeth herself is not delicate. Later, when she does start to think that Paige is like herself because she's strong and cares about social issues, Elizabeth seems to forget her original assessment, which IMO, was accurate. Paige has a fragility that neither of her parents have.
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The Americans in the Media
in The Americans [V]
This is an interview from 2017 with Irina Dvorovenko (Evgheniya Morozov in season 5). I had no idea that was a principal ballerina with the American Ballet Theater before retiring in 2013! She talks a little about her own experience growing up in the USSR.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/26/arts/dance/irina-dvorovenko-the-americans.html