Couver
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Posts posted by Couver
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20 minutes ago, bijoux said:
I was actually thinking about something else in regards to them. Sansa is supposed to have won the North's independence because of everything she learned from Cersei and Littlefinger. Except there has really been nothing that shows those skills at least since Dany showed up in Winterfell. She just basically kept repeating she wants independence. You know who I think would have gone about it that way had he wanted it? Ned. No subtlety, just very much cards laid on the table. She only deviated in the end by divulging Jon's secret to Tyrion. You know Ned would have gone and tell Dany he was going to talk first.
I don't know what to think of this really, be disappointed that the supposed learning wasn't showcased at all, or be kind of impressed by them showing Sansa's northern roots. Subtlety really isn't their strength.
I wouldn't have minded Arya sticking around, as my chief hope for the Starks has been effectively dashed, the pack is no more and is doubtful ever to be again, but I'm not sure her skillset is all that useful to restoration. In the long run, Westeros might profit from her discoveries.
So much to the bolded. I really felt the show gave the character short shrift there. They hammered us over and over with characters saying it but at best just gave us vague hints of her actually using her smarts to get things done.
Season 7 would have been the best place to show it. Particularly with her figuring out that Littlefinger was playing her.
It's weird I liked the Starks a lot when the show started and all the way through to season 7. Especially Sansa and Arya but season 8 made me really dislike them all because of their endings.
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2 hours ago, Nashville said:
Sansa’s breathing room exists not because her brother is on the throne (although that certainly doesn’t hurt), but because she can make a cogent argument justifying grounds for unique Northern dispensation which none of the other Kingdoms can gainsay, or claim for themselves: the entire realm of Westeros (including the other Six Kingdoms) would no longer exist if it wasn’t for the North’s actions in successfully defeating the Night King, and the sovereign recompense for the North’s losses in protecting the realm should be independence.
If she goes this route she'd really need to hope that the actual details of that battle are kept under wraps. That victory came with a heavy helping of foreigners via the Unsullied, Dothraki, and the former queen and her dragons.
Yara at least should know Dany had a major role in that victory and can make a claim for the IS on that alone.
But by shows end I can totally see Tyrion and Sansa spinning this into a Northern victory.
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5 hours ago, MadameKillerB said:
Up thread, the opinion is that Sansa's coronation gown looked like Cersei. But I think it was a dress that showed all the female influence in her life. I see some Maergary in that gown and your post reminded me. I think the dress and her throne chair, all of it, was very much Sansa creating her own image of herself as QitN. She has learned from so many and now she is taking all that she learned to rebrand.
I have mostly seen Cersei in Sansa's mannerisms and dress since season 7. Sansa's life experience has left her cold and detached in a way that Margaery never was. Of all the influences in her training I see Margaery the least in Sansa.
I would have liked to have seen her a few years into being QITN. The Northerners are a pain to rule but Sansa has a very dark streak inside her and I can see her becoming a Northern Cersei in time.
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12 minutes ago, kieyra said:
Queen costumes: the only one who ever really stood out, in terms of costume design, was Maergary.
Seriously her wardrobe was to die for. Both of her wedding dresses especially. House Tyrell had a lot of style.
8 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:Drogon is all alone in the world.
And he's what 9 years old? Don't dragons live well into 200+? Poor boy.
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Why not start the end of hereditary rule by you know...not electing nobles to the council at all? How on earth would anyone in KL be ok with Tyrion? He was never loved by the people and after enduring his cruel father, psychotic nephew, and tyrant sister no sane common person would be ok with him in any position of power.
Again I think this could have been written as acceptable if they did a better job of turning Dany into a villain. Particularly on the back of the 'but think of the common people' nonsense that Tyrion and Varys were going on and on about.
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Thank you everyone! It has been a ride! Lots of ups and downs.
I avoided leaks for the first few seasons but as I got invested I needed to know what happened so I could brace myself. This was especially true for any dire wolf and dragon deaths. It was also nice to see a lot of people here felt the same way about that 😂.
I'll always appreciate what this show did for the genre. It really made fantasy mainstream the way Marvel made superheroes.
As a lifelong nerd it originally annoyed me because we nerds have suffered for our fandoms 😄 But I'm glad these genres are reaching more people now.
I was disappointed in this season but I'm hoping once the dust settles people can let the actors and show runners be. It is what it is.
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So the 3ER is confirmed as immortal?
I wonder if Bran will have to create a tree & root system like the last 3ER to maintain his longevity?
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59 minutes ago, Umbelina said:
For crying out loud, it's not Sansa's fault that Dany fails and dies. Geesh.
The 3ER does not die.
I didn't say it was her fault. That's why I said she lucks out. She ends up the only 'ruler' with a fairly loyal base of people following her. She also has good ties to this ruling council. The show has also gone out of its way to paint her as savvy and self-interested. It's not a stretch to see her exploit her family ties to Bran and relationship with Tyrion.
If this council was breaking the wheel then the North should be leaderless too. But we know they aren't since Bron is installed at Highgarden. And Gendry and Brienne etc. Nothing has really changed except a vote by highborn people that installs more highborn people into power.
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48 minutes ago, stagmania said:
If I'm understanding correctly, the only people who voted are this small insular group of highborn people who were choosing among their friends, right? Like, they already appointed themselves as the power in the realm and the only real debate was what specific role they would each play. I think calling that a vote or anything in the neighborhood of democracy is extremely charitable.
Plus the North gets to keep a highborn ruler. Nothing's really changed.
Sansa actually really lucks out in the end. Most other highborn houses are gone in the end. She's the only one with a storied family history left in power. And she has strong ties to both Bran and Tyrion. And the show hasn't shown her as benevolent in the least.
It's very easy to imagine years of intrigue and power grabbing if/when Bran's time is up.
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I still can't with this council 'for the people'. Why aren't there common folk on this council then? Everyone on it is titled and from families with long histories, money, power, and connections. At the very least Bron should have remained a common person...but he gets the most fertile land in the kingdom and his status elevated. So in reality the common people are still ruled by their 'betters'.
I hope the common people at least don't buy this smoke show. But given the lack of focus on any story details this season I'm sure we will never even see their reaction.
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Well it seems like Drogon lives so that is something. I hope Bran leaves him alone. He lost more than most.
Not even sure what to say about Dany and Jon's endings. 8 years to build up to this and two of the major characters on the show arcs' amount to nothing.
That council is lol. Most of the people there will commit the same things the previous rulers did since they are of the same stock. I am glad to see women on it though. Especially Brienne. With her and Davos on it there is at least some hope.
So the previous 3ER was a bastard right? Otherwise why didn't he pull strings to set himself up on the throne and prevent all the killing and death we were subjected to the past 8 years? Why didn't any 3ER do it?
I would actually kind of love it if the show went there and ended it with Bran/3ER revealed as evil all along with the NK created as a check to that. That Bran manipulated everyone into removing for him. That would have been a surprising ending.
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2 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:
I totally disagree about Varys. There was nothing that Dany did from the moment Varys met up with her to the time that he ended up trying to poison her that would justify him betraying her like that. The only things that I can tell that he didn't like were, her burning the Tarly's.
Also, Varys didn't really care about the realm - sure he liked to tell himself that but someone who really cared about the realm wouldn't have been working behind the scenes to sow the kind of chaos that results in a war that will largely impact commoners. Varys is quite frankly, full of shit. And he wanted Jon because he saw that Jon would be easy to manipulate.
Agreed. Could be another situation where the show failed at conveying what they wanted the character to be. We have lots of instances of Varys saying he is for the people. Less of him actually doing things for the common folk though.
Varys was set up early as a schemer trying to one up Baelish. He also had many opportunities to help the people outside of just politicking. The strings he pulled played parts in starting conflicts no less...where common people died! And it isn't great to use children to do you bidding and put them at risk. The most defenceless of common people.
Varys was a great character. But I always saw him as grey. Nowhere near good and certainly not benevolent.
And I think that is where the show has failed this season. The whiplash treatment of Dany and the attempt to juxtapose her against characters who are also morally questionable seems hypocritical.
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Why would Drogon leave peacefully after someone kills his mother? Even though the dragons clearly sensed something Targaryn in Jon they never bonded with him the way they did with Dany. Even Rhaegal didn't imprint on Jon that much. Makes no sense. But I'll take it because Drogon lives and that's I guess the happiest ending I can hope for now.
And maybe that speculation that because Drogon lives the WW return is true. A reverse of the WW existing at the start of the series causing the return of dragons. Although the show has not built up that type of mythology around either the WW or dragons.
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5 hours ago, RealReality said:
I have a problem with the tarly death because there is a difference in how you kill good guys vs. how you kill bad guys.
If you must kill a good guy you can do so in a dignified way. You need not burn them alive. I wouldn't call Randal tarly good because he treated Sam shitty, but he made an honorable choice.
Dickons choice wasn't logical, but it was honorable. His father's choice was honorable too, even though it wasn't a choice Dany liked.
There was no need to kill them in gruesome way.
The show didn't present the Tarlys as honorable though. I suppose some wiggle room is there for viewers interpret them in our own way.
But they betrayed Olenna who they had sworn oaths to. Randall did it purely to get Highgarden in the bargain. His betrayal lead to a lot of dead Tyrells.
And both were given a choice between life and death.
Again I suppose the method of execution is the issue here. To me the dragon fire is no different than Ned or Robb behading people who disobeyed them. It's certainly not the level of torture Cersei inflicted on people like Ellaria and Septa Unella. That is prolonged suffering. Dragon fire seems to have it over and done with in seconds.
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38 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:
They all thought of her as the foreign invader so that is what she became. She brought the Essos vengeance to Westeros. Her Unsullied and Dorthaki were more than happy to follow their Queen.
I know Dany wouldn't be The Queen, I expected that. I just wanted it to be written well and make sense. This was so rushed and OOC. Dany has killed her enemies as has most of the other characters.
When Sansa murdered her abuser Ramsey with hounds and watched and smiled that was justice. When Dany watched her abusive brother get murdered by her husband, she didn't smile or gloat. But she's cruel while Sansa's a hero. Arya killed the Freys and fed them to their father, then killed him for revenge. She's another hero, when Dany kills slave owners for killing children she's cruel and going mad. Because those are some of the excuses I've seen for proof that Dany was always mad and cruel. The only difference is Dany has access to stronger weapon than a sword or hounds.
Drogon is Dany's sword so she is passing the sentence and swinging the sword. With a sword like we saw with Theon can be painful if you don't swing hard enough. I imagine getting dragon fire pointed straight at you is a pretty quick death. It becomes painful if you get the fire as it comes down like we saw in the last episode. Which is the only time Dany has unleashed a cruel punishment against anyone not during a battle.
For me this was Dany burning the show down. They ruined not only her character, Jon, Tyrion, Jamie and Brieanne have been ruined as well just for them to get to this point. So for me go ahead and Dracarys, Dany. I'm sure you'll her stabbed in the back by one of the Super Starks in the finale.
I think the dragons were always an issue for detractors of the character. Because they are so powerful and because the story does try and draw parallels between them and WMDs.
One of my problems with this seasons narratives for Dany is that this show has dealt with revenge, and pain and death so much that what she did this past episode is just par for the course. So many characters have killed for revenge, for love, during war etc. This just feels like more of the same. Narratively they are showing the fall out (dead civilians). But obviously that's happened before. Civilians undoubtedly died during the take back of Winterfell from the Starks who like Dany were claiming a birthright. Or during the war to free Ned etc. But the perspective the narrative showed us was different.
Since the show is ending with Dany as the villain it has to sell her crimes as worse. For me the optics are just bad because there is a degree of sexism to it (just my opinion).
I've made my peace with it though and am very glad the show ended for me with 8x3. That is actually a really nice episode to wrap this series on.
I will check out the final episode if Drogon gets to ride of into the sunset though. But I highly doubt it. There is no way someone gets near his mother and kills her if he's still alive 😥
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I try not to overthink this show too much but one thing is bothering me. Drogon put on a masterclass performance and thus illustrated a huge problem with the show; dragons are only as effective as the plot demands. Last week, Rhaegal was unceremoniously shot down and this week Drogon manages to take out the entire Iron Fleet, all of the scorpions, the gates to King’s Landing, and he destroyed most of the city.
Yet two weeks ago, we had two dragons who could hardly make a dent against the AOTD. It makes no sense. None.
Drogon is her most battle tested dragon. We've seen before that he knows the rhythm of battles. He's dodged projectiles before including from the NK. Both during the Wight Hunt and the battle at Winterfell.
Locking Viserion and Rhaegal up was a mistake on Dany's part. It stunted them physically and left them vulnerable during battles. They never got to learn that humans = danger like Drogon did in the fighting pits. Whenever they were deployed Dany had a very strong advantage and their big brother was doing the heavy lifting first.
I mean their deaths were entirely plot based but I'll give the show runners the above. I think they set some of that up well.
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12 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:
It’s more of the same though. How is this council any different then a King and his small council. It’s not.
That's my issue with it. Also the Targaryen legacy is always used against Dany. But people will be fine with a Lannister, son of Tywin and brother of the most recently Queen on the council.
If you want to really do something different then there shouldn't be any one from a major house on this council. And certainly not someone who is a corrupt person.
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5 minutes ago, Leila6 said:
More detail from the accurate spoilers:
On Jon killing Dany, he tone of it is very tragic. It's kind of like she's completely consumed by madness and he's saying how much he loves her and he's loyal to her, then he stabs her when he gets close enough. It's obviously traumatizing for him to do because he does love her.
Why Jon kills her? At that point Jon is horrified by what Dany has done to King's Landing, and she gives speeches about how she'll keep doing it to free slaves from their chains. He's also convinced by Tyrion that his family will never be safe because he presents a threat to her rule, so he's motivated by that as well, I'm sure.
After Dany takes KL, Dany gives a speech about freeing slaves across the world, etc. Some scenes where characters are reflecting on the devastation she's caused. Some scenes where they're deciding how to handle Tyrion, who's a prisoner. If it does happen in episode 6, there's probably 40-50 minutes of buildup before Jon actually commits to killing Dany.
Not sure what was filmed in Dragon Pit.
Not sure on Vary's betrayal. Tyrion gets arrested because he frees Jaime to try to save Cersei, I think. His arrest definitely happens after that and there's no way that it's not a factor in it
Unless they filmed alternate scenes where Tyrion dies and invested in post-production to polish those scenes with ADR, CGI, editing, etc for some inexplicable reason to throw off a tiny minority of the viewer base, Tyrion lives and will be on Bran's small council.
Jon surrenders to the Unsullied after killing Dany.
Jon doesn't kill Dany in a moment of madness. It's more like she becomes hellbent on a particular mode of justice that Jon realizes he will not be able to discourage.
In the epilogue, the unsullied leave to cross the sea and start liberating slave cities on their own, because that's Dany's plan before Jon kills her -- she has this big speech scene, after sacking King's Landing, where she's talking about wrecking the world, liberating all of the slaves from their masters. [Emilia mentioned giving a big speech in multiple languages—this must be it.]
When they're deciding who to elect as king, Sam suggests holding a democratic election and the other nobles laugh at him. That's before they vote on Bran.
On Jon taking the black: I'm really unclear about why Jon takes the black, but it seems more like he makes the decision himself, or that he makes the decision in conjunction with other people. It doesn't seem like he's forced to do it, or at least not that he's doing it against his will. He's pretty defeated after killing Dany. I don't know 100% about Jon's epilogue but he's not just going north to just retire out in the wild, it's definitely related to the Night's Watch. Taking the black is what makes him no longer a legitimate heir to the throne.
Any indication what happens to Drogon?
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7 minutes ago, SeanC said:
Why would a council not be subject to corruption?
Exactly. And if the spoilers are to be believed. There are corrupt people on the council. Tyrion was not a good man until a few seasons into the show. He was happy to whoremogger and drink until he had a change of heart. He has also shown a weakness in wanting to keep House Lannister alive and suffers from arrogance and hubris of his own.
Bronn is criminal trash. The character is right that the nobles were no better. But the character has also never done a selfless thing without the possibility of something to gain for doing it. That isn't benevolent rulership.
Sam is a decent council candidate. But I wish the show had built him up as a bit more sure of himself. Episode 3 actually backslid by making him look like a coward.
Brienne should absolutely be on this council. As she has shown time and time again that she will do what is right. And Podrick should be there over someone like Bronn.
A decent council would be Davos, Brienne, Pod, Sam. These people I could see doing well by the common people.
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I wonder what ridiculous way they will kill Drogon off next episode? The means to kill a dragon all just got torched.
The optics of this seasons are so problematic. They keep running with this madness being in the Targaryen's blood but no one worries and wonders if the male Targaryen will go mad?
Why is Dany evil for doing the same thing in war that every major character has done including the Starks who felt it their birth right to take back the North?
Arya clutching her pearls at dead civilians but did she make sure every Frey she killed was guilty of her brother and mother's murder?
This show absolutely could have done a good job with a tragic ending. If they bothered to actual build to it. Why didn't they just get maybe an 8 episode season instead of 6? Or do more in season 7?
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One thing I think Dany failed on big time was locking Rhaegal and Viserion up. It not only stunted their growth it left them unaware of battle tactics. One thing the show did well was show that Drogon has better natural battle instincts. He always dodges the spears/scorpions (except the first one). I don't think Rhaegal and Viserion had the chance to realize that they weren't necessarily the top of the food chain. Drogon roamed and saw a lot of sh!t. The other two always got to come in after and help with clean up. But they never got a chance to be in the thick of it until the wight hunt.
Some of this was just bad writing of course. But that's one of my regrets with Dany. If she hadn't imprisoned them she would have arried in Westeroes with 3 dragons all at full size and strength. Although the show still would have had two die in really dumb ways 😂🙄
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6 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:
The only ending for a character like Cersei would be execution. Dying essentially in an accident is not satisfying, nor does it pay off her long-standing supervillainess status. It would be like Darth Vader dying in the Death Star by falling debris, or crashing his TIE fighter into a Star Destroyer. There isn't any pay off to it. She should have to be humiliated in surrender, tried and publically executed, same as happened to Ned.
Agreed 100% but sadly I don't think we are getting that. I think the shame walk was all Cersei haters were going to get. I always felt D&D had that happen to soften her a little. Her revenge on the Sept and Septa Unella were presented as badass (which from a narrative standpoint they were) because they wronged her.
Plus at this point in the show she's bested most of the characters who had a meaningful reason to hate her and want revenge. The only characters I could see humiliating her sufficiently would be Sansa and Tyrion (and clearly the writing won't let him). She's wronged Dany but it's happened so late that I'm not sure the payoff would be good. Plus death by dragon fire is super quick. Arya with Jamie's face would be great for me too but I don't see that happening either.
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This all sounds so messy lol. I'm sure it will start to become more firmed up by Saturday like ep 4 did.
I'm hoping for a nice building collapse to take out Cersei. No way does this character deserve a remotely happy death. And I hope we see the realization dawn on Cersei's face that she's lost and it is over. LH can rock that and we deserve to see this monster pay before the end.
And damn it I just want a Drogon lives spoiler. At this point it's all I'm living for 😂
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15 minutes ago, kittykat said:
Unfortunately that plotting is all D&D. After the masterfully done The Winds of Winter when Dany is sailing with the support of not only Essos forces but 3 dragons and Houses Martell, Tyrell and Greyjoy (they were so strong they didn't even NEED the North), our winded writers (and most of us) probably realized that it would only take about two episodes of good plotting and military strategy to decimate Cersei and her forces. And D&D have made it perfectly clear that Cersei is their favorite character to write for and wrote Adamantium strength Plot Armor to keep their Bestest Most Favoritest Queen around.
So Tyrion suggests leaving the dragons out of round one and taking KL humanely, which was then wise advice. But then enter Euron and his Super Fleet and suddenly her Westeros support is taken out; the writers came up with more convoluted reasons to dwindle her armies to make it look like Cersei has a chance. However, she still had the dragons and its why the Loot Train Ambush is so satisfying because it's the first time Lannister forces truly got effed in the a. She could've gone in for the killing blow but instead went North and then to even the field further we lost two dragons.
But we know all this. I'm a firm believer of Cersei should've died in S7 but D&D were never going to let that happen. Have Dany & Jon battle out the WW threat in eight as a final metaphor of the politics and wars don't matter if the LITERAL DEAD is after you. But alas, we have a rock bottom Dany and one dragon. I haven't lost hope for the show but have lowered expectations and I certainly haven't hated this season like most have but I've had my reservations. I've got my foam finger all ready for Cleganebowl.
This is a great post!
I will give D&D that a story needs to be told. So obviously you can't have the obvious rout that Dany would have dished out upon her arrival because where is the story in that?
But you are absolutely right that it could have been told/shown better. Too much was sacrificed for the sake of plot.
For example I hated how worthless they made the Tyrell army! Even with the Tarly's betraying them there is no way the Reach's forces should have rolled over that easily. The Tyrell army was integral to winning Blackwater. But then they died in a fairly one sided battle against the Lannisters 🙄 Just because they didn't have Loras?
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Speculation & Spoiler Discussion for Animal Kingdom
in Animal Kingdom
Shawn posted pics with them too. All of the guys have had some spoilerish stuff on their social media. I'm excited to get some insight into Smurf's relationship with Julia even if it's only with young Julia. And I suppose we will get more Pam in the flashbacks.
Seems like a lot of the shooting currently is in Craig's place w/ the baby.
Jake also posted the infamous 'cock sock' so it seems like Derran gets over/ Adrian quick :(