TV Juriste
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Posts posted by TV Juriste
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On May 17, 2016 at 10:27 PM, HalcyonDays said:
Disagree. The evidence is out there. I've learned a lot about the situation, that I have not revealed in posts here at all....At this point, everyone - everyone - even remotely attached or barely connected to SH by obscure connections is automatically considered the villain, no matter what logical proof is revealed otherwise. Why are people not considering even with a barest of consideration or even the remotest possibility that maybe, possibly, hypothetically, that Beharie really wanted out of the show, really wanted to do movies and FOX bent over backwards to quell the turmoil and try to appease her for as long as they could? There is a reason that merely two or so days after Abbie Mills' death (aka SH finale), that the remake of Jacob's Ladder was announced, along with Beharie's casting. Castings like this are not done in days. It takes weeks. Months even. Albert Kim tweeted about the movie weeks before the end of the finale. They all knew. All of them. She wanted out, she wanted her movie career. That is the reality.
There is a reason that seemingly disconnected writers are tweeting their similar turmoil. This is not an accident. The problem is that the public refuses to even consider it a possibility. This is a close knit group who all talk to each other and reveal things. TV Networks all know what really happened with Nicole Beharie. Eric Heisserer spoke the truth, and there is a reason so many other writers have picked this up.
Actors can be horrible. No question. But, the approach of writers responding to complaints about their storylines, stereotypes, and blindspots that even Stevie Wonder can see (sorry) with cowardly thinly veiled attacks on individual actors with accusations about bts conduct is -- well, shameful. That's truly the best word I can think of for what's transpired over the last few weeks. I also find it RIDICULOUS when fans make direct, personal threats on goofy writers. What a mess. I'm very curious about how ratings will hold up next season.
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13 hours ago, HalcyonDays said:
Interesting article. The picture of what happened and why keeps getting clearer and clearer....
I'm hoping for a good shady government intrigue in my SH S4. And someone to write a BTS book.
The extent to which insiders are casting aspersions on NB is shameful. It's like a bully who punching his victims repeatedly and then complain that my blood stained his shirt. (A few insiders have pointed out that NB was not a diva on set despite the concerted, coordinated whisper campaign being used to silence fans' complaints).
What a horrible mess.
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3 hours ago, Enero said:
The most unfortunate outcome of this situation is that it will do NB's career no favors. Whether she felt forced to leave or not, it is never a good idea for a lead actor to request early release from their contract or to be fired before meeting their contract obligations. Some more seasoned actors have been able to do this and come out unscathed, but a decision like this is always harder on those who are new to stardom and especially women, even worse I'm sure for WOC.
Yes, this worries me as well.
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Start it at about the 73:10 mark: https://www.podcat.com/podcasts/hs6zfR-combat-radio/episodes/ThxCtQ-december-18-2015
Thank you!! I wonder if simply wanting to wear her natural hair was perceived as a "diva" request? Nicole looked so great when she switched from the wigs to the kinky-curly 'do!
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Judging from how they presented Katrina then Betsy, it was always A Tale of Two Titties.
(I'll see your literary reference and raise you a title parody...)
Hilarious -- I wish I'd thought of that line. So very excellent.
Had you all heard this before?....
In an interview Shernold Edwards did last year she talked about how "Abbie" wearing her hair natural wasn't taken lightly. Nicole had wanted to go natural and the EPs of the show apparently weren't A-OK with it. Shernold said she was sitting there at the same table with the EPs while they were discussing this "issue" and neither of the EPs even bothered to ask Shernold for input about it! The one black lady that actually wears her hair natural and could've offered some insight!! They sat there and talked RIGHT IN FRONT OF HER, as if she wasn't there. She said she would've liked to been asked for opinion.
I just find this so interesting and insane! Something so simple as the girl wanting to wear her hair natural and TPTB took issue with it! Really?!?!? I mean, I can only imagine the difficulties a person of color must deal with in this industry. The issues that come about that shouldn't even be issues! We see that Nicole did get to finally wear her hair natural in the second half of the season, but just knowing that her request caused a stir and had to be questioned by the TPTB?!?!.....I just can't.
I'm sad like everyone else that Nicole is no longer on the show, but, honestly, it truly seems like it's for the best. I'm sure the stuff that girl witnessed and experienced during her time there...well...no one wants to experience. It's just ultimately not worth it. .
Do you happen to have a link to the Shernold interview?! That's INSANE!!! I keep thinking this whole debacle can't get any worse and then I hear something like this and it makes my heart hurt and sends my "pressure" up.
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Even if they get a S4, they'll be lucky if they get half of their viewers to come back.
And I will be so pissed if they actually promote it now... with the "new lead". Won't that be telling.
I seriously doubt this was NB - she's a massive introvert - no way she's being a diva onset. If she had been, we might not have gotten that mess of a S2. And thirdly - tonight is NOT the NIGHT for rumors attacking Nicole Beharie and besmirching her name. People are seriously hurting over this and there is NO proof of anything just rumors, when what we have stated from the show is that NB wanted to leave. TM and NB are very good friends, and NB doesn't have a history of being that way, so just no.
Especially given how FUCKED up this show has treated NB for most of its run, it's not Nicole who has been "difficult". Even throughout S2 when Katia Winter and Goffman were AFTER HER job and she could have easily outed that BS, she didn't. Thus it's highly unlikely that she was a diva on set. The DIVA onset in S2 was Katia, who couldn't keep her bitterness out of her mouth in interviews, where she either attacked Abbie fans or Ichabbie fans - and in some cases going after the fanbase on twitter in mean spirited posts.
**Slow clap** Well, it didn't take long for someone to try to start a rumor attacking the one cast member who was so demonstrably mistreated fans launched a twitter campaign to complain. As a fellow introvert, I suspect she was touched, but also embarrassed by the attention. Ugh. Nothing will make me angrier than if there's any attempt to start a "Beharie is a diva" whisper campaign. The only good news from the night is that Nicole Beharie is free to go on to better things.
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As soon as I saw the shot of Abbie with curly hair, I was like, "So...she's been there for 2 years?" 10 months?! The show trying to tell me that she not only completely grew out of a relaxer, but grew curly hair longer than the previously aforementioned straight hair in only 10 months was the most unrealistic thing this show has ever tried to sell me.
I think they were trying to sell you on the notion that she flat irons her hair usually. Without the flat iron, her hair returned to its natural state. It looked gorgeous!! No complaints from me about showing Abbie with her beautiful kinky-curly hair instead of straight hair!
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Probably not unless there's a lawsuit or something which forces Lee Daniels to do it. She's now released the emails between her and Daniels' representatives supporting her claim that she was the original choice for Cookie. Releasing private emails is a step over the professional line, I think, and I'm not sure what she hoped to accomplish by doing that. It's not as if LD is now going to go, "Oops, my bad, well, I guess we'll just fire Taraji and put Mo'Nique in the role!" IMO Mo'Nique is just digging herself into a bigger hole.
That's great. Maybe now both characters will be fleshed out more.
Mo'Nique's emails don't even prove she was offered the role. All they show is that she was asked to audition for the role and before she could even audition - the Fox executives pulled the plug on the whole thing -- http://www.tvjuriste.com/ask-tv-juriste-why-is-monique-still-claiming-taraji-stole-her-cookie/
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A great think piece by the wonderful writer Wesley Morris, focused on Trevor Noah but also touching on John Oliver, Larry Wilmore and the general late night landscape.
THANK YOU for posting the Grantland piece. It's excellent!!
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I don't think it's important to defend this guy for stupid tweets- comedians are just very sensitive about anyone calling anyone out for "jokes," even if they're bad ones. If anything, to me this makes him look immature and like others have said, below the "gravitas" of The Daily Show, but that might be a good thing for expectations. We know immediately this will no longer be a Daily Show that's perceived as important by political/media figures, so I'm just not going to watch. I didn't watch Kilborn either. Jon Stewart was the Daily Show for me, and if him and his show are gone, I'm just not interested.
I agree. RIP nightly hour of political comedy zen. Looks like Trevor Noah = Tosh 2.0. I'll just head over to CBS for Colbert and HBO for John Oliver.
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How does Orlando Jones get away with those comments? Surely Goffman must hate his guts for it.
I remember hearing Orlando say in an interview that TPTB don't really get Tumblr, no way to monetize it, blah blah, he feels free on Tumblr. He's more political on Twitter.
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Someone asked Orlando is he's doing commentary:
The usually sarcastic, almost always enthusiastic and at times loquacious Jones with a one word response. Hmmm....
oh good grief. craziness behind the scenes.
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Perhaps Goffman is trying to tank the show because he's been effectively removed? Or he's just pissy because he's been removed?
NB actually mentioning this online though is worrisome - she usually never dips a toe into this kind of stuff - it makes me think something is up behind the scenes...
If the show was already canceled, I can't see NB caring about it much... she'd just move on. But if this is a final act of Goffman trying to throw a final hissy fit before he finally fades to black while the show continues without him, then I could see it.
What shade has Tom been throwing? I've been out of pocket on vacation so I've missed a bit.
this is so bizarre. what is going on w/ this show???
goffman would not be in control of who does the commentary for the dvd. that's more of a Fox corporate issue - the home entertainment department team. why would they not use one of their leads since she clearly wants to do it? craziness.
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Thank you! I was afraid to speak up and admit I ship them too. It seems to me that there's a bit of a snob attitude toward shippers of any fictional couple, as if it's somehow more mature or sophisticated not to ship. Admittedly--shipping can bring the cray-crays out of the woodwork and cause much eye-rolling and secondhand embarrassment when some fans act as if the world will come to an end if the couple in question doesn't eventually tumble into bed. But love and romance are part of life. What's wrong with rooting for a couple with the level of chemistry shown by Ichabod and Abbie to take the relationship to the next level at some point?
I'm not going to be shattered if it never happens. I'd be fine with a close, platonic friendship where they spend lots of time together alternately fighting evil and enjoying their downtime together, but I am the daughter of a woman who would watch Gunsmoke and yell, "Kiss her, Matt!" at the TV screen every time Marshall Dillon and Miss Kitty were in a scene together. The desire to see hot romance is in my blood so I would love it if Ichabod and Abbie ended up as a couple.
I want the show to be careful about it, of course, and have it happen in a natural way that doesn't feel rushed or like a ploy for higher ratings.
I hope I didn't imply that I think shipping is crazy. Not at all. I just don't want to hear any more love/relationship discussions next season, if at all possible. I think unresolved sexual tension can be very sexy, btw. Remember in the first season when they were topless on the table w/ the scorpions - that was hot!! But, I'm weary from all the relationship talk this season, not because I'm mature - probably the opposite. :D I just really want to get back to the humorous and adventurous moments. But, I'm fine with a few scenes that trigger sexy time thoughts, too.
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Heh, that RPG site has been locked down now, you have to actually follow it to see the tweets now.
darn. i knew i should have taken a few screen grabs. snooze you lose.
That's my problem too with any Ichabbie scenario. Ichy is man of words and melodrama, not of deep feelings and action, which is why the Cranes felt flat and not only because of Katrina's blankness. The last thing I want is hearing him whine about his beloved Abbie, while making everything about him and his feelings.
I don't think we have to worry about it though. Abbie is not Ichy's type. He's not attracted to her (and vice versa) or interested in her in any way. Besides, I'm sure the show will cast the "right" woman to be his love interest.
However, I do want to see Abbie in a passionate romance (Calvin!). I think it would work better than the horrible Cranes and their dullness. She has so much chemistry with everyone, it would be a pity to continue to reduce her world to Ichy and nothing but Ichy and work, something the show has done for two seasons straight. It's time to focus a little more on her private life now.
Respectfully disagree. I'd love for the witnesses to focus on their witnessing -w/ zero romance. unresolved sexual tension is fine - but nothing else. we can revisit love stuff if there's a 4th season, but i'm worn out from all that "my love" stuff.
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I'm still scrolling to find your post, cynic. Hopefully it wasn't deleted. In the meantime, what is it WITH this SpoilerTV guy person. He's attacking everyone, and pretending that he himself is being attacked (dear god, sounds like how certain people try to defend Katrina's actions). Dude, just DO NOT respond. Stop responding. He is taking everything anyone says personally. Sheesh.
I see TV Juriste is in there giving reality checks too. Excellent.
Then someone wrote this comment:
I cannot with this comment....Can you imagine...? That would be absolutely horrible..... (ETA: The comment above was someone else's)
Thank you for doing a True Fan's work, cynic. Also, What. Are. These. People. Seeing. On. Screen
I had to turn off the notices so I don't see any of the new posts on that article. Sandra seems to be the crazy lady from IMDB. I truly think the posts from the most adamant Katrina fans need to be evaluated and discussed by a professional psychologist or sociologist. It's like they are not seeing what we're seeing and also not in touch with reality. They complain about the writing but say they like Katrina - even though Katrina is a character created by the writers. They act like she's real. . . .or something. It's bizarre.
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I don't know - this is pretty ugly.
I shouldn't have read that page - my blood pressure has gone way up... yeah... none of them actually know what that word means... This is the kind of ish that we've been dealing with for a long time - the only hopeful thing is that they are being drowned out finally. But - yeah - my blood pressure spiked reading that page... now my chest feels tight.
Breathe.
Why did I click the link? Why? I already know the hardcore IMDB people are too much. Seriously extra. I periodically go there, but try to stay away after being attacked on all sides from people who take the shows too seriously and seem more than a little unbalanced. The funny thing about it, from my perspective, is IMDB is an industry site. I've used it for years without knowing anything about the message board battles.
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Glad someone posted this because there's actually a list of campaign activities posted now. Many are Twitter campaigns, including a trending event this coming Monday. Looks like there's too long a list to actually quote it here though - http://sleepyhollowhub.com/post/111580570131/updated-sleepy-hollow-renewal-campaign-and
They released the finale to bloggers. if you loved Sleepy Hollow season 1, I absolutely encourage you to support the renewal campaign!!
I predict Fox will pick it up for a 3rd season. As with Awakening, the finale shows that a Fox-imposed course correction is under way. Hope the ratings on Monday go up again!!
And, yes, they go there on the slavery issue. It was fine - not too much. The seriously dangerous situation Abbie faced as a Black woman in 1781 was not ignored, there were several tense moments, but those moments didn't weigh down the episode. Nothing offensive. I was happy to see the earlier Grace Abigail Mills make an appearance.
i will stay away from these boards for the rest of the weekend, because I'm not good at giving previews that aren't spoilers. Can't wait to re-assemble after the finale.
Just watched Tempus Fugitive a few hours ago. My take is at the link below. I enjoyed it and am looking towards the future. I'm excited and hope we get a season three. This show, this cast, deserves a season three. With the right folks at the helm, Sleepy Hollow has positioned itself to finally be something great. I didn't think they could pull it off, but they did. The powers that be put together a great finale that sends a message to both Fox and its fans.
http://brownsista.tumblr.com/post/111613960559/i-just-finished-watching-tempus-fugit-and-here
"Tempus Fugitive," damn autocorrect
Totally Agree!
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Oh man!
Just watched this episode and thought I'd post some thoughts. Hadn't watched it until just now as I'm binge watching Game of Thrones after @TVJuriste said she might start covering it and… Well, I've avoided reading any posts here until I'd seen the episode, read the first two pages and gave up…. (also, I have to get back to GOT) :) Much of what I say may have been said elsewhere on the forum so I apologize...
1. Despite changes in characters that might not track from previous episodes, I'm willing to forgive and forget. I DON'T CARE if evil Katrina doesn't follow from previous episodes. This is SO much better and I can live with the artistic deficiencies. (Still want Katrina to die, but at least evil Katrina doesn't whisper as much.)
2. Loved the "Man Out of Time" bits early on. Well done! Self-aware without being snarky or cynical. Flint and steel? "Good on ya, mate" as my Aussie in-laws might say.
3. Bobble-head Ichabod? Sign me up! This show could make some serious green with that type of merchandise.
4. Jenny and Irving--excellent! Just what we wanted! (Now twist it a bit--don't want happily ever after too soon.)
5. SH Pilot callbacks? I knew they were coming based on the synopsis of the Finale (as I said in a previous post) , but I really loved the cart going by on the road, the sign with the bird on it and especially the acoustic version of Sympathy for the Devil. If I forget everything else about this episode, I won't forget that. Strong work SH!
Has the show dodged the iceberg? I don't know and I've been watching too much GOT to be very optimistic, but I, for one, am looking forward to a Season 3.
Ha! Now the site has to cover it. I probably won't write them, Riddley Walker, but I am committed to finding someone who will make them fun (and I need to catch up on last season myself!). If I cover anything directly, it will be House of Cards. Actually, maybe . . .
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No, the showrunner did a course correction because FOX - you know the ones with the real power? - told them to change. When FOX spoke, the showrunner and writers listened and suddenly these same people managed to once again evoke the feel of Season one. Why? Because the boss who mattered, the one who was at the top of the food chain, not only wanted change, they demanded it. If FOX had said: give us more cowbell and Katrina, stat, fuck the ratings, that’s what “The Awakening” would have delivered.
But FOX has always been of the opinion that Ichabod and Abbie, together, make the show. They were hands off because K/O were the beautiful people from Hollywood but when November came with critics barking, ratings slipping and fans bellowing, FOX had had enough. So, Walden and Newman, decided to remind Kurtzman, Orci, Goffman, critics, Katrina fans, Abbie fans, Henry lovers - all of us - "Who's the Boss" and said renewal=creative changes. Not just any creative changes. The creative changes that FOX wanted. SpoilerTV learned that when FOX yanked their either reworded/or omitted words spoiler. Did FOX say anything about wanting viewers to think SH was about slavery? That ended up costing them ratings, when I'm sure FOX made damn sure the "mirrioring" with Ichabod was Abbie needing protecting for being mentally unstable. These scripts for the finale have been "network approved." So if you want to blame somebody, blame FOX. I’m sure if SH moves forward to Season 3, FOX will make sure this particular mess won’t happen again. They’re likely to hand out a required guide called: “FOX’s Non-Negotiable Rules When Writing for Sleepy Hollow”. And those orders will be obeyed.
And for the record, yes, I want an Ichabbie end game. But I also happen to like the new EvilKatrina! and hope she stays while finding Jenny “meh”. But I’m not FOX.
I posted something down thread, but should have read your post first. ITA - this is a business. Love the cowbell reference!
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For me, it's not about Katrina or Henry, it's about the precedent set. We've now established that if the fans like or dislike something strongly enough, the showrunners will force that something to occur or be removed regardless of other considerations. A lot of people like the idea of Ichabod and Abbie as a romantic couple. So, how about if we have an episode where they get kidnapped and debauched by satyrs which shakes them out of their hangups and makes them a romantic couple? Is that a stupid abomination of story that betrays the characters' history? Sure. But now it can be done as a "course correction."
This. A thousand times this.
I think what we're seeing is a true failure of the writing team and a network stepping in to correction the ratings free fall. If the course charted by Goffman et al was a ratings (or even just a critical success), it would have continued. For example, David Simon's, The Wire was never a ratings success. But, it was a critical darling and, frankly, it was clearly a coherent story deliberately mapped out by a true auteur.
By contrast, Sleepy Hollow has been a mess. After seeing the ratings free fall, the Network chiefs only needed to watch it to see the problem. This is a show where the writers couldn't remember that they'd established that Ichabod was dead before Katrina knew she was pregnant, dropped the plot requirement that all 4 horsemen of the apocalypse were necessary for Moloch to arrive on earth, have never bothered to explain the mortality/immortality/aging process for witches or the significance of the witnesses, particularly in a post-Moloch world. Oh, and why would the 2 witnesses be several generations apart. The show has potential BUT IT'S A MESS.
The Network execs are stepping in to save their investment and get fans to return. Basically the fans have been saying - return to what was mapped out in season 1. So, I'm not sure the handwringing about precedent makes much sense in this instance. But, maybe the hand wringers would rather see the show cancelled. It's a business - keep that in mind and the choices the network is making to save the show will make sense. No one is trying to serve fans as a goal separate from the desire to keep the current fans and lure more to make money.
For my part, I don't care that much for the specific realism of Abbie being black in Colonial America. I don't want to see 12 Minutes a Slave, much less any longer time. Speaking of being a slave in that time, it's bad enough just pretending to be a slave in Colonial Williamsburg, much less anything more.
Agree with you on this point. 12 Years a Slave was a great movie, but I'm not looking for that type of realism at 9 pm on Fox after a long day's work.
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I loved your recap TV Juriste!!
And Albert Kim posted on twitter about the ratings... https://twitter.com/magicbranch/status/5677395799946076
More Orlando commentary
Wait, what? Is Trollando jumping ship completely? Let me head on over to the Shady Hollow tag in Tumblr to see what's what.
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Brilliant recap, TV J:
My comments re: Page 1: Why is the fact that a coven of witches to be raised is a bad thing? Because Henry's the one wanting to raise them. Therefore --> Evil.
It's not like Katrina bothered to make a case to the Witnesses.
Page 2: Katrina travelling back to 18th century to allow Ichabod to officially "die." and not be "preserved". Dammit! Called it somewhere here or on the other board. Knew it!
Page 3: I've above posted my parallel of Abbie in the 18th century and Ichabod from the pilot.
You were right though - excellent episode!!
Thanks! I need to learn how to make gifs! I added a link to the tumblr gifs of the parallel scenes.
I get that if the witches agree to be lead by Henry that could be a bad thing. But, I suspect dealing with witches might be like trying to herd cats . . . I'd like to see a bunch of witches in Sleepy Hollow and I was disappointed they didn't have Abbie and Jenny temporarily activated by the bell. That would have been a good time for Abbie to say a few things to Ichabod that she might otherwise never say.
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I agree with everyone -- this episode was a mess. A big, meta, 'You know why we are doing this, we have to to fix stuff' mess. But I didn't care. Because it was all set up and at least it is starting to pull the show out of the crapper.
- I liked the beginning with Ichabod and Abbie in the bookstore. His lamentation that the 'Man out of time' was such a trope and Abbie's name checking Dr. Who and Marty McFly. It later resonates with Katrina who says she 'never felt right' in this time and now Abbie who is her own 'man out of time' when the show ends.
- When Abbie ends up on oldie Sleepy Hollow. I loved that whole beginning sequence -- I immediately recognized all the callbacks. And the 'Sympathy For The Devil' was the cherry on the cake.
- It is a shame they wasted an entire season on trying to make Katrina this romantic foil for Ichabod and a spoiler for Ichabbie. They tried to stuff in one whole episode what they should have been doing all season long. I wrote in some other long post somewhere else on this forum, that contrasting Katrina's lack of adaptability to this era to Ichabod's fairly easy one, would have been a better plot point than the incessant damseling. Added to the knowledge that a lot of what she can do witchcraft-wise can be re-created through technology plus the closeness b/t Ichabod & Abbie should have made her more and more bitter so that her turn didn't feel like it was 'Welp, I'm evil now." but something we could see happening piece by piece. Seeing what they can do when forced to do it, I am even more pissed by the missed opportunities in this season.
- I was so pissed they didn't destroy the bell! Although I did love the utter frustration in Ichabod's voice when he tells Henry he never knew about him. And Yes, I too added the silent 'Dumbass!'
- So glad Henry is dead and Abbie killed him. SorryNotSorry!
- And yes, i think he is really gone. The cast has been making sure to say that in the interviews
- I am so excited for next week. But I do wonder how it will play out. Will we get 'our' Ichabod back when all is said and done? They can't keep Abbie in the 1780s too long, so they have to come back, but what will be changed? Will Corbin be alive? I would love for Clancy Brown to be a regular in S3. Can you imagine Abbie's reaction if she comes back and sees him? What would be perfect would be if they manage to kill Katrina in the 1780s and by default Henry again while in utero!
If they kill Henry-Jeremy in utero that would change several things - for example, Grace Abigail Dixon and her husband would have stayed alive longer, who knows what ripple effects that could have on Abbie.
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Sleepy Hollow in the Media
in Sleepy Hollow [V]
With all due respect, you're doing the same thing - hinting at insider knowledge to suggest bad BTS behavior - without revealing it. It's a way to cast aspersions without being held accountable for the damage.
It's so unfortunate to see how readily people are willing to believe the worst and on that basis to tear women (particularly, but not exclusively) women of color apart based on conduct that is shrugged off when a man does the same thing. Tom Mison, John Noble, and Katia Winter all complained about the post-Season 1 writing on the show. None of them are being slyly attacked for unprofessional or diva behavior on social media. By contrast, except for one quickly removed post expressing disappointment about DVD commentary, Beharie has been consistently positive about the show. But, none of that matters. People are primed to believe the worst and these writers know it and act on it.
Like someone upthread, I dropped the show mid-season because of boredom. Not BTS drama - BOREDOM because of lame writing.