saki
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Posts posted by saki
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I'm catching up with the show on netflix.
I've had this feeling for some time but this episode just sealed it for me - I really feel like Jane is actively enjoying stringing along the two guys, at this point. I know they want us to see her as naive and stuff but there has just been sooo much of her fluttering her eyelashes at each of them in turn, kissing one, then the other, etc etc, for me not to see it as deliberate at this point.
I also feel like she just kind of expects everyone's lives to revolve around her - at the beginning of the show, I really liked how secure she felt with her mother and grandmother but, at this point, it feels actually a bit selfish the way that she expects them to base their lives around her. It doesn't occur to her to even ask them whether they're ok to look after Mateo while she goes to grad school. It doesn't occur to her either that Michael or Rafael might ever tire of her - she seems to assume that they will always be waiting in the wings for her to make her decision.
I still love the show as a whole but I'm kind of over Jane.
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It's true that Sybil was much more of a rebel than Edith but Mary is overwhelmingly the most traditional of all three, which is a massive difference between her and Mary. Mary's obsession with the estate and nice dinners and traditions is all completely alien to Sybil. Edith is kind of in the middle there.
I just wanted to make clear that your assertion about Mary and Sybil's affinity and Edith not being at all like Sybil is not shared by all
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I do think Tom loves both sisters, but - just as Sybil - he feels closer to Mary. I think it might be, because Mary and Sybil resemble each other much more. They're both very confident and secure while Edith is just the opposite.
I don't agree with this. I think Mary and Sybil do have those similarities. But Sybil and Edith also share a lot of qualities too - they were both always more interested in life outside Downton, both have much more progressive politics, both actually did something in the war effort (nursing and driving a tractor being a lot more similar than moping and singing one song)...
I also don't see any particular evidence for Mary and Sybil having been closer.
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I love dry witty humour - but, for me, Mary doesn't display that at all. I don't like Tom that much but I wouldn't wish Mary on him - I don't see how someone who loved someone as down to earth abd warm as Sybil could love a cold class conscious person like Mary.
I don't see Tom/Edith as a great fit either but they are both outward facing which is important, I think. Mary is all about the estate and doesn't share their interest in politics, etc
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I mostly enjoyed this, actually, It was bit cliched, no real surprises, but I think that's what Christmas specials are supposed to be like so that was fine with me.
My favourite bits:
Edith's happy ending, which was very long overdue.
Cora finally having a bit of a purpose in life, it was interesting to see her at the meeting.
Isobel finally getting together with Lord Merton.
Rose and Atticus - they are just very sweet and it's nice to have characters who are so happy.
The hats - Cora had one that was particularly stunning.
Edith's dresses - the one that she wore to dinner at Bertie's and the blue one she wore in the scene with her future mother-in-law especially. In comparision to her other dresses, her wedding dress wasn't that amazing but she looked radiant the whole episode.
Things that I thought were funny:
Talbot having to ask whether Mary was pleased or upset by the motorcar business - given that she only really has one expression, it is quite hard to tell!
Talbot and Tom continuing their bromance.
"Not in Lady Mary's bedroom!"
"Not Susan after your mother?" "No."
"So, you're both second hand car salesmen?"
Things that were a bit disappointing:
No clear Baxter/Molesley - after all of the scenes they have had together, I do feel a bit cheated that we didn't even get a kiss.
Things that didn't work for me:
Thomas' redemption - for the reasons given by tentatively yours above
Mary's redemption - we didn't even have a reference to her telling Bertie in the whole episode. If you hadn't seen the previous episode, you'd have the impression that Mary had nothing to do with Edith and Bertie splitting up. It was not portrayed as Mary righting a wrong, but doing something lovely and generous. I didn't care for it.
I found it a bit weird that we had so much Edith/Talbot in this episode - at the beginning, it sort of felt that he was seeking her out.
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So, going back to this episode.. For me, it was largely really upsetting to see what Mary did to Edith - I found it genuinely really hard to watch her being so cruel. I'm not entirely sure why I found it so difficult to watch - I guess, it was partly how calculated it was, you could see Mary thinking about it and planning it and then deciding to finally do it, it was absolutely not an spur of the moment thing and partly the awfulness of her response (as I've said earlier, the way that she never acknowledged it - even when both Tom and Edith tell her to her face that she can't get away with playing the innocent and pretending she didn't do it deliberately, and the way that she doesn't apologise properly).
But there were some good bits:
I enjoyed Edith at the magazine and the Spratt as the advice columnist - felt that was a welcome return to the tone of Season 1.
Cora's line - "it's 5:30 and we're in North Yorkshire, did you expect me to tell him to pitch a tent?" - was funny.
Completely inadvertently funny but Tom and Talbot's bromance.. I laughed out loud when Tom was trying to leave Talbot to propose to Mary and Talbot was all "Don't go!" and then when the two of them were going off to the church together, they made such a lovely couple...
Things I was more 'meh' about:
Barrow - I just didn't find this storyline worked for me. There are some people who have been consistently kind to him - like Anna, Baxter, Molesley and Bates - so I didn't really find it realistic that not being Andy's reading buddy and being made redundant drove him to suicide.
Mary/Talbot - I thought this was written really badly. I still have no idea what was meant to be going on. For some of the time, it was written as though the racing car thing was the big problem but, then, when she decides to marry him, she doesn't raise the issue at all. Is he still going to race? Does she now not mind? Who knows? I actually do think the actors had some chemistry - though, to be honest, I think Michelle Dockery plays Mary as such a cold fish that she doesn't have a lot of chemistry with anyone - I don't think that was the major problem, I just thought the writing was all over the place.
I think it's been obvious for several seasons now that Julian Fellowes doesn't see Tom as a massively important character so I didn't find it that surprising that he had no plot and no very satisfactory ending.
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And that is what I think complete prejudice against Mary. We see Bertie dash of to London just as often as Mary and it's not as if Brancaster is nearer to the estate as is Downton, but in her case it is the implication that she is just doing a pretend-job of being the estate Manager in Bertie's case we assume he is splendid at it. As was Tom, because he was a man. He lived exactly the same life as Mary did. He changed for dinner every evening and had enough time to do just as many things as Mary did, but just because he's a man we think he must be a hard worker, while Mary is just showing off.
The show said us, that Mary is working as estate Manager and we see her doing it. We don't see her working at it 24/7 because it is boring to watch, but we know she does the full job. She is not just pretending to do the job.
And of course she could just leave it and waste her time and fortune elsewhere, but the show is making a point about her not wanting to do that. We also know that Anna is not going to be replaced once the Baby is there so the old argument she "doesn't have to brush her hair" is not going to work any more either.
I don't think we do know she does the full job. What we see from her is obviously different to what we saw from Tom and the glimpses we've seen from Bertie. They didn't get breakfast in bed, they had to look after their own clothes/hair. If they wanted a day off, they had to actually ask their employer. Bertie has made it very clear that he can't get down to London to see Edith anytime, that he has to fit it around his work. Mary has not once, ever, on the show said that she couldn't do something she wanted to because of work - what we have seen is nothing like a woman with a proper full-time job.
I just don't buy that I should somehow feel sorry for Mary because her life is so hard. Other than perhaps Robert, she is the character on the show who has had the most good fortune. Why on earth should I feel sorry for her rather than, say, for Daisy who at the beginning of the show was a girl barely into her teens who was up at the crack of dawn working hours and hours in a backbreakingly tough job, being shouted at by Mrs Patmore, for an absolute pittance?
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He would be Earl the minute Robert dies, no matter if the entail was broken or not. The only difference is, that Mary would be the owner of the estate as long as she doesn't hand it over to him or as long as she lives. She would NOT steal his inheritance, because she would certainly leave it to him anyway. It's her life's dedication to preserve the estate for him and to work her arse off to save his inheritance.
AND she could do what people want her to do: She could leave money to her other children, too. As it is now, she will work for the rest of her life as the manager of the estate. Without a salary of course and if something happens to George she would not own a penny. Every single penny she owns and all she has worked for would go to the new heir (if there is one) or to the crown. She would get no gratification or pension or anything for her life's work. If George dies in WW2, Mary will be in her 40s. Would anyone hire a female estate Manager? Of course not!
I'm sorry, I just think this is total hyperbole. She doesn't have to be the estate manager, she is choosing to be one - she could hire one and go off and live somewhere else. It's not just because she's a woman that no-one would hire her - she doesn't treat it like a proper job, there is a massive difference between the way that she "works" and the way that, say, Bertie Pelham was working as an estate manager. She can pick and choose what she does, she can swan off to London whever she feels like it, she doesn't even have to brush her own hair!
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If we are speaking of equality and fairness, I think we should speak of the whole system. Then at least would side with Tom (earlier) and Daisy. Daisy was only wrong in her method.
Totally agree. I suppose it is unfair that Mary doesn't inherit. But it feels just as unfair that Edith and Sybil weren't going to. And that Rosamund didn't. And, while it is unfair that some people are never going to inherit because of their gender, it's much much more unfair to me that some people are going to have do really ridiculously hard work and graft - like Daisy, Mrs P, Mrs Hugest - and that some people, because of the accident of birth, can make one mistake and have their children taken away (Ethel.)
I don't feel this great tragedy about Mary's position, frankly. Not least because she will have known her WHOLE life that she wasn't going to inherit, this wasn't some massive surprise for her. For most of her life, she will have expected to have a younger brother so it's not like she always expected to marry the heir, she was brought up with the assumption that she'd be leaving Downton when she got married. And, I'm sorry, I also find laughable this idea that she is now working for the estate - as Cora would say, she's not exactly going down the mine. She still seems to have plenty of time to go to parties, sit around having her hair brushed and to be spiteful to her sister.
She knows the role of Downton is to provide for the village around it (or it was).No, I don't think that's so clear. When she wanted to show her American grandmother "what Downton was about", did she show her the village? No, she threw a grand dinner.
What she's been doing on the estate has been about moving towards farming the land themselves (i.e. getting rid of tenant farmers) which benefits her and the family, not other people. I see absolutely no evidence that she's interested in the village as a whole. There are a couple of individuals who are beneath her like Anna who she'll be nice to but, when Anna disagrees with her (as we saw over the contraception), she has no problems ordering her to do things she's uncomfortable with.
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I said I understand why Mary finds her annoying. I don't say she deserves Mary's snark. That's a big difference. Maybe most people here are perfect and only get annoyed at people who deserve it, but I don't. I know several people who get on my nerves who are in fact nearly saints. They probably get on my nerves because they're nearly saints! Edith is not a saint, but I totally understand why Mary finds her annoying. Her doe, brown, teary sad eyes alone would drive me up the wall if I was exposed to them too often. It's just a reality that there're people who are allergic to each other.
Is it good? Nope. Am I a bad person for it? Maybe. But that's how people are and how the world is.
That's why always enjoyed the dysfunctional relationship between Edith and. Mary. It's realistic, it happens.
But does Mary get annoyed when Edith is sad? I don't think that's true - I think she gets annoyed when things go well for Edith. That's certainly what happened in this episode - it was Edith looking happy that caused Mary to lash out. And, previously, too, it's been when - say, Robert is proud of Edith for getting out the magazine issue, that Mary is sulky and upset with Edith.
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Its a small island. I mean, they had to import Matthew Goode. And psst... they can't reuse the hottie that played the Turk because Mary's Vagina Curse killed him,
Matthew Goode isn't imported, I think he's English.
Its a small island. I mean, they had to import Matthew Goode. And psst... they can't reuse the hottie that played the Turk because Mary's Vagina Curse killed him,
Matthew Goode isn't imported, I think he's English.
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We already know that they cast Bertie's mother and shot at the location that was Brancaster (the Marquess's estate), that is a pretty huge giveaway. Not to mention the page of the script with the wedding on it and "Bertram". I will remain ever hopeful, dammit!
We'll see. There are still myriad ways for JF to screw Edith over. She could be left at the altar AGAIN. Mary could decide to stop the wedding because it's not about her. Bertie could have a heart attack before he gets to the altar. I really don't think Edith's happy ending is a cert.
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I had a long post about why the Mary romance fell flat involving the fact that they're somewhat repetitious : guy meets Mary, falls inexplicably madly in love with her and the story is whether or not she'll accept him, but somewhere in that I realized that's the symptom not the disease.
Fellowes wrote better for Edith/Bertie because he felt he had to convince the audience of why anyone would want her.
On the other hand, Fellowes loves Mary so much he takes it as a given that the men fall for her at the drop of a hat and thus Fellowes expends little to no energy in showing us why the characters might fit one another. It's always about whether Mary considers the man an acceptable consort--which is exactly what Fellowes wrote.
The problem may be that Fellowes loves Mary so much that he expends little effort in showing why love interest {insert number here} does. In his mind, they love her because --duh. Of course they do. She's Mary and she's awesome!
I think this is exactly right. Mary's romances are ridiculously over the top - the worst example of this is Evelyn Napier who is apparently, a decade later, still pining for her after seeing her for a handful of hours over the years. Similarly, Talbot, Gillingham, Blake, Matthew, etc, etc. It doesn't work - it's not convincing that men fall in love with her so quickly without really getting to know her (although, I would argue that they'd be even less likely to love her after knowing her better) and it's just really dull, narrative-wise. I would have liked to have seen Mary chase a man more, be in doubt over whether he likes her, work to impress him, not have every eligible man in London chase her for no obvious reason.
On the other hand, Edith and Bertie was played so well - Bertie shows some interest in the Christmas special but a believable "I'd like to dance with you" kind of interest, not love at first sight, and then it develops at a more reasonable pace.
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I am still worried that Edith won't get a happy ending. I know the signs all point that way but this thread was full of post after post of people convinced that Tom and Mary was going to happen and that was clearly totally wrong.
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I would have liked:
Edith and Bertie - Julian Fellowes somehow sold me on them totally within a very few episodes.
Rosamund to reveal that Edith is actually her daughter - I feel like this would explain a lot.
Tom to be in the US or in Ireland - I do not find his conversion to Downton at all credible and I feel like it actually reflects really badly on him that he apparently doesn't have any interest at all in his own family.
Molesley and Baxter - I really don't understand why they couldn't at least show them holding hands during the finale, it wouldn't have taken any extra time.
Carson to die, leaving Thomas as butler and Mrs Hughes and Mrs Patmore to run the B&B together
I don't really care about Mary - I would find it mildly amusing if she had to leave Downton for some reason (more financial problems, or George dying or Patrick reappearing) but that's about it.
Isobel taking an interest in George.
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I don't see Mary's apology as a non-apology. She's just realistic. She knows there's nothing she can say that will make things undone and nothing she can say that will Edith forgive her, because it was unforgivable what she did.
Well, it certainly wasn't an apology - so I think "non-apology" is pretty fair. She doesn't even admit to Tom or to Anna or to anyone that she did what she did out of sheer spite. I don't personally find the fact that she knows she's a bitch makes her any less of a bitch.
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What I also loved though was her reaction to it afterwards. She knew perfectly well what she did and that Tom had told her nothing but the truth, but she didn't sulk or refused to talk to him or felt unfairly treated. She has the ability to be truthful to herself even if it's not nice what she sees. I think that shows her backbone and I love that about her.
What I hated most about Mary in this episode was her reaction to it afterwards. She did not in any way accept what she did and that Tom had told her the truth - she doesn't acknowledge that at all to Edith with her first non-apology to her, she still tries to claim that she thought Edith had already told Bertie.
And then, even after the Dowager specifically tells her to first make her peace with her sister, she makes absolutely no effort to do so and Edith is the one to extend the olive branch.
Not only was what Mary did one of the cruellest things I've ever seen on TV but her reaction afterwards told me she wasn't sorry at all.
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Mary continued her campaign for bitch of the year...
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Is there any good Sybil/Matthew fic out there? That's the storyline I really wanted
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I agree that Mary looked shocked/stunned in the scene where Edith is telling her off, and I have speculation as to why. Last season, Mary's continued shots at Edith were often vicious - I thought overstated (in the script) and over directed (I have faith in Dockery that she doesn't put more acid on a line to Carmichael than she's told the scene requires). This season, Mary has, very occasionally, is my impression, said some things, but very half-heartedly.
I feel like Michelle Dockery increasingly says everything half-heartedly! I actually think this is part of why none of the suitors have really worked - although there have been moments, like the pigs with Blake and (for me) her genuine concern for Talbot in this last episode.
I do think Tom and Mary have been portrayed as close but, for me, a romantic relationship would still be really weird - I can imagine Tom and Mary hugging but I can't see them kissing, they just haven't been shown to have that kind of spark.
I think, also, for me I would find it a bit sad if Tom's ending involved him just completely assimilated into Downton - what about his family, does he not want Sybbie to know them at all? Does Ireland not matter to him at all now?
I also think that it would be a bit sad (though less so) if Mary's world started and ended with the estate and she had nothing else in her life.
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Mary could be a bridesmaid for Isobel, as her daughter-in-law. I think we can expect that wedding.
That would definitely make more sense.
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If it was simply a dress fitting, then Mary's hair wouldn't be done. And surely a bridesmaid wouldn't be wearing a gown in a bridal colour. All in all, it sure looks like Mary's second wedding day!
In the UK, it's not uncommon for bridesmaids to wear white for formal weddings - see, for instance, Pippa Middleton at William & Kate's wedding.
I don't necessarily think Edith would have Mary as a bridesmaid, though - not just because they don't get on but also because I think a widowed bridesmaid might be seen as bad luck.
It doesn't look nice enough to be Mary's wedding dress though - it makes her look a bit frumpy.
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I think it's massively overstating the case to suggest that Mary and her entire family were RUINED by the Pamuk thing being whispered about. We have no real evidence for that - Mary continued to have lots of suitors, no-one shunned her, it was all basically fine. The only reason it wouldn't have been fine is if it had got into the newspapers, and I don't think it's at all clear that Edith intended it to be reported in the press.
I also think even Mary wouldn't say that the scandal began with Edith's letter... it clearly began with Mary sleeping with Pamuk, which was a risk that she chose to run. He could have, if he hadn't died, spread the story himself.
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I actually always threw JF a bone over that because I think in *books*, the death of a sibling magically trumps years of arguments between other siblings but in reality, it often leads to the stalemate we see with Edith and Mary. Sybil couldn't make them like each other in life, and removing her removed the buffer.
I agree with that - what I was trying to say is that, after all of that didn't bring them closer together, I would find it unrealistic if they had a full on reconciliation at the end of the series. I would rather that they ended the series as they've spent it - clearly disliking each other.
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S02.E20: Chapter Forty-Two
in Jane The Virgin [V]
The Jane lovefest really annoyed me - the show is just so convinced of her amazingness, that they forget to show it sometimes and just tell us about it. A lot. How awful of Rafael not to do anything at all for Petra, despite contributing to the Jane video! How self-centred of Jane not to do anything for her own mother or grandmother!
I also thought it was very poor form to accept Petra's hospitality and then shout at her sister. Was that really the time?
Who would she be jealous of? Everyone loves her.