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Wiendish Fitch

Because I'm Eeeee-viiilllllll: The Villains Thread

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3 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I agree Ever After did it so much better. Jacqueline was nicer and got treated like crap too.

Jacqueline is a good example of someone who doesn't have a mean heart, isn't inherently mean but her main examples in life were her downright evil mother and cruel sister. She was mean to survive rather than mean because she liked it. She was weaker than Danielle so she chose to follow her mother and sister rather than end up being more abused by them as Danielle was. She was weak rather than truly evil and once she found her strength her true nature was able to come out. Hers is a redemption done right because she was never truly rotten to the core. She was redeemable. Ever After is one of my favorite retellings of Cinderella and Jacqueline's story is part of the reason why. 

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Jack Torrance in The Shining.  He may have been a shitty father and a worse husband, but damn if the man wasn't a crazyass villain.  And the aftereffects of the damage he left on Dan and Wendy are explored in Doctor Sleep: 

when Dan returns to the Outlook, he encounters Ghost Jack, who is now Lloyd the bartender.  It's heartbreaking how Dan clearly is struggling for some kind of closure with his father, and not only is Jack too far gone to care, but he even goes as far as to blame Dan and Wendy for his drinking.  I won't lie, part of me is glad Jack is stuck in limbo, a good comeuppance if there ever was one.

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Watching Thor Ragnarok on TV and Hela was one of the best Marvel villains ever. She was fabulously evil, witty, and though she had the same chip on her shoulder as Loki, she didn't waste time whining about her birthright. Heck, she didn't wait a second after she was free from Odin's prison. She broke Thor's hammer and she proceeded to kick his and Loki's asses without breaking a sweat. She got shit done.

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Hans Gruber from the classic action-thriller "Die Hard"

Yes, I know Bruce Willis was the main man, but Alan Rickman's portrayal of super smooth, super slick gangster, Gruber, was the icing on the cake for me!

Favourite quote from him would have to be 

Quote

When they touch down, we'll blow the roof, they'll spend a month sifting through the rubble and by the time they figure out what went wrong—we'll be sitting on a beach... earning twenty percent.

Edited by Zola
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2 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

Can we all agree that Regina George from Mean Girls is one of the most complex movie villains ever and that Janis is the actual bad guy?

You know what? Yeah. Cady may have turned into a mean girl, but she did answer for her actions. I would have liked Janis to own up to the fact that she used Cady for revenge...not that she didn't have a right to be angry at Regina for what she did to Janis in 8th grade, but still.

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Janis, Regina and Cady were all mean girls. Cady wasn't at first although she agreed to go along with it and learned quickly. Regina definitely was horrible. And so was Janis. The whole thing was her plan. Although Janis did tell all the girls when she saw Cady backing out so she wouldn't have to take a turn. Going up and revealing the whole plan. But because Regina was hated so much Janis was cheered and carried off by the other girls.

One thing that does bug me is Aaron Samuels. He's an asshole too but he really just gets let off the hook. Regina goes back to him because Cady likes him. He did like Cady but just let it happen and goes along with it. Even though they broke up because she cheated on him. He seems to know exactly what Regina is like and he must be okay with it. They only break up because Regina keeps cheating on him. Cady has a point when she asks him why he's with Regina when she's so horrible and he just turns it back on her. He's annoyed when Cady becomes like Regina but he dated Regina twice. 

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So am I the only one anxious over Rise of Skywalker opening this week in terms of whatever the outcome with Kylo Ren will be? Like I said before, I felt cheated by a lot of non-comeuppances this year in movies/TV shows, specifically Ross in Avengers Endgame and Cersei in Game of Thrones. The Game of Thrones one still smarts. 

I really really REALLY don't want another go at redemption for Bitch Boy. I think that was settled just fine in Last Jedi, and I hope to God JJ Abrams did not cow to the trolls and Reylo stans that were unhappy about that.

I'm trying not to panic by what I saw in the trailers but I'm still suffering from PTSD from GOT. 

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22 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

So am I the only one anxious over Rise of Skywalker opening this week in terms of whatever the outcome with Kylo Ren will be? Like I said before, I felt cheated by a lot of non-comeuppances this year in movies/TV shows, specifically Ross in Avengers Endgame and Cersei in Game of Thrones. The Game of Thrones one still smarts. 

I really really REALLY don't want another go at redemption for Bitch Boy. I think that was settled just fine in Last Jedi, and I hope to God JJ Abrams did not cow to the trolls and Reylo stans that were unhappy about that.

I'm trying not to panic by what I saw in the trailers but I'm still suffering from PTSD from GOT. 

No, you're not the only one. I can just about stomach "redemption" for him if he dies in the process. But if that Rey/Kylo Ren bullshit gets pushed again, and they turn him into some supposedly dreamy, woobiefied romantic hero, it will ruin the entire trilogy for me.

He doesn't get to have that, after the things he's done. And I do not want the gaslighting, manipulation and consensual issues that punctuate Rey's dealings with Kylo Ren to be portrayed as positive, romantic or healthy. Not when there's a whole generation of young people who will grow up with Rey as a heroic figure to aspire to.

My preferred end will be him following the path he set himself on in The Last Jedi, and proving that, whether everyone is redeemable or not, some people do not want redemption. They've set their course and they're committed to it. And Rey kills him in a non-tragic, non-regretful manner, because she is the hero of these movies, not him.

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1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

My preferred end will be him following the path he set himself on in The Last Jedi, and proving that, whether everyone is redeemable or not, some people do not want redemption. They've set their course and they're committed to it. And Rey kills him in a non-tragic, non-regretful manner, because she is the hero of these movies, not him.

She should kill him the same way he killed Han: igniting the lightsaber right through him when his guard is down. That would be perfection.

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15 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

She should kill him the same way he killed Han: igniting the lightsaber right through him when his guard is down. That would be perfection.

It would be. Screw taking the high road... Kylo Ren is way beyond redemption at this point (or any point, really).

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On 12/17/2019 at 6:59 AM, Wiendish Fitch said:

It would be. Screw taking the high road... Kylo Ren is way beyond redemption at this point (or any point, really).

The only way I'd even accept that happening in the movie is if he expresses remorse -- ACTUAL remorse -- over what he did to his parents and the millions of others whose lives he destroyed.  It wouldn't make me like him or feel sorry for him, but I'd give him that at least.

Vader did that much. Kind of. Sort of.

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1 minute ago, Spartan Girl said:

The only way I'd even accept that happening in the movie is if he expresses remorse -- ACTUAL remorse -- over what he did to his parents and the millions of others whose lives he destroyed.  It wouldn't make me like him or feel sorry for him, but I'd give him that at least.

Vader did that much. Kind of. Sort of.

Vader at least-at the very least!- repented right before he died, so there was no entitled woobie-fication.  Better late than never, I guess.

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Just now, Wiendish Fitch said:

Vader at least-at the very least!- repented right before he died, so there was no entitled woobie-fication.  Better late than never, I guess.

He saved Luke's life, which counts in the sense that he couldn't just sit back and watch Palpatine kill his son.  He didn't say much about the other people killed though, not even Obi-Wan, Mace Windu, or Padme.  Yes, I know the prequels hadn't existed then but you know, he could have expressed some kind of guilt about all the others.  I'm just saying...

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1 hour ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Vader at least-at the very least!- repented right before he died, so there was no entitled woobie-fication.  Better late than never, I guess.

I mean... obviously they aren't going to have Vader go down the line of all the things he's sorry for. Luke was insisting that there was still 'good' in him -- whatever that means after you blow up a planet -- and as he lay there dying he told Luke 'you were right, tell your sister... you... were... riiiiight...'

And then he showed up as a Force Ghost which means the Force forgave him or whatever? And then that was redone to have him show up as a Young Hot Force Ghost which means the Force SUPER forgives him? I guess?

The whole 'tell your sister' part is always the thing I wanted to see actually happen. 

'So, Dad told me to tell you that I was totes right about there being good in him.'

'Really? Where was all that 'good' when he was torturing me or blowing up my planet?'

'And he's a Force Ghost now so...'

'Oh, well the next time you Force see him, tell him to Force jump up his own ass and Force die. AGAIN.'

'That's kind of Dark Side-y of you, sis.'

'Luke. I have a galactic government to help rebuild and a super hot smuggler to fuck on the regular. And having been TORTURED by our DAD I think I've got a long way to go to be Dark Side. Go meditate or something.'

'.... I'm older than you, you know! The Force Ghosts said so!!'

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4 hours ago, Dandesun said:

 

The whole 'tell your sister' part is always the thing I wanted to see actually happen. 

'So, Dad told me to tell you that I was totes right about there being good in him.'

'Really? Where was all that 'good' when he was torturing me or blowing up my planet?'

'And he's a Force Ghost now so...'

'Oh, well the next time you Force see him, tell him to Force jump up his own ass and Force die. AGAIN.'

'That's kind of Dark Side-y of you, sis.'

'Luke. I have a galactic government to help rebuild and a super hot smuggler to fuck on the regular. And having been TORTURED by our DAD I think I've got a long way to go to be Dark Side. Go meditate or something.'

'.... I'm older than you, you know! The Force Ghosts said so!!'

Ha! I'm now sad this exchange never happened!

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22 hours ago, Dandesun said:

I mean... obviously they aren't going to have Vader go down the line of all the things he's sorry for. Luke was insisting that there was still 'good' in him -- whatever that means after you blow up a planet -- and as he lay there dying he told Luke 'you were right, tell your sister... you... were... riiiiight...'

And then he showed up as a Force Ghost which means the Force forgave him or whatever? And then that was redone to have him show up as a Young Hot Force Ghost which means the Force SUPER forgives him? I guess?

The whole 'tell your sister' part is always the thing I wanted to see actually happen. 

'So, Dad told me to tell you that I was totes right about there being good in him.'

'Really? Where was all that 'good' when he was torturing me or blowing up my planet?'

'And he's a Force Ghost now so...'

'Oh, well the next time you Force see him, tell him to Force jump up his own ass and Force die. AGAIN.'

'That's kind of Dark Side-y of you, sis.'

'Luke. I have a galactic government to help rebuild and a super hot smuggler to fuck on the regular. And having been TORTURED by our DAD I think I've got a long way to go to be Dark Side. Go meditate or something.'

'.... I'm older than you, you know! The Force Ghosts said so!!'

For awhile in the Expanded Universe that was pretty much Leia's 'tude towards Vader/Anakin while Luke had completely forgiven him she hadn't. In the first book immediately after Return of the Jedi, The Truce at Bakura, Anakin shows up as a Force ghost to Leia and asks her forgiveness. She refuses to give it to him due to all he did Alderaan, all the people he killed, the widows and others of those he killed and torturing Han. Not until the end of the Dark Empire comics does she forgive Anakin/Vader mostly due to Luke ending up going to the Dark when he went to serve under the Emperor to try and bring him down and got pulled in. Leia managed to get him back but she learned how hard it was and what it must been like for Anakin and forgave him to the point she named her and Han's third child Anakin. Tatooine Ghost which came out a decade or so later but just after Han and Leia married in the timeline where Leia visited Tatooine and learned of Anakin's childhood as a slave, his mother and met some of his friends helped her see what he was like before also in the beginning of the book Leia had been against having kids due to Anakin/Vader genes worried or afraid that could be passed down, inherited or somehow end up just like Vader. Ironically in the now Legends and Disney versions she was right.

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A few years before Disney bought Star Wars, Star Wars announced a book on Darth Plagueis would be published detailing Palpatine's master and Palpatine's background. Most were excited but a lot were also worried that we were going to get another poor misunderstood villain in Palpatine or some how the galaxy and/or Jedi somehow "made" him go bad. Or something. Or some sob story. But nope not at all. Palpatine was very clearly a psycho from the very beginning. A soulless asshole with zero empathy and killed his entire family. Happily joins the Dark side. Happy to scheme and do all the back stabbing and killing. The arrogance especially at the end claiming everything his master decided after they met was all Palpatine's idea and manipulating him. Which may or may not be true. But it wasn't a sob story. It wasn't poor Palpatine. Nope, he was a bastard from the beginning. As he should be.

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Actually, I think one REAL villain that should be considered is IMO J.J. Abrams. From Lost onward he's managed to turn what had been fairly good enterprises  into pointless, sour groaners so it's not surprising that many believe he's done the same with SW.  To me, pinning everything on  him to revive the joy in the SW saga made as much sense as expecting Tom and Jerry's Droopy to outlaugh  Bozo the Clown. 

 

Edited by Blergh
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6 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

A few years before Disney bought Star Wars, Star Wars announced a book on Darth Plagueis would be published detailing Palpatine's master and Palpatine's background. Most were excited but a lot were also worried that we were going to get another poor misunderstood villain in Palpatine or some how the galaxy and/or Jedi somehow "made" him go bad. Or something. Or some sob story. But nope not at all. Palpatine was very clearly a psycho from the very beginning. A soulless asshole with zero empathy and killed his entire family. Happily joins the Dark side. Happy to scheme and do all the back stabbing and killing. The arrogance especially at the end claiming everything his master decided after they met was all Palpatine's idea and manipulating him. Which may or may not be true. But it wasn't a sob story. It wasn't poor Palpatine. Nope, he was a bastard from the beginning. As he should be.

Say what you want about the prequels, but Palpatine was a magnificent manipulative bastard. He played Anakin, the Jedi, and the entire Galactic Senate like a fiddle, arranging everything so he'd wind up on top.

Seeing ROS tomorrow, so expect another post about Bitch Boy from me very soon...

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3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Say what you want about the prequels, but Palpatine was a magnificent manipulative bastard. He played Anakin, the Jedi, and the entire Galactic Senate like a fiddle, arranging everything so he'd wind up on top.

Seeing ROS tomorrow, so expect another post about Bitch Boy from me very soon...

He really was and he played everyone perfectly. 

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11 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Say what you want about the prequels, but Palpatine was a magnificent manipulative bastard. He played Anakin, the Jedi, and the entire Galactic Senate like a fiddle, arranging everything so he'd wind up on top.

Seeing ROS tomorrow, so expect another post about Bitch Boy from me very soon...

Yeah, but... it was so bleedingly obvious that he was behind it all that the Jedi all just looked like complete morons. Then again, it was bleedingly obvious that Anakin was emotionally unstable and banging Padme, but they never picked up on that either.

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13 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Say what you want about the prequels, but Palpatine was a magnificent manipulative bastard. He played Anakin, the Jedi, and the entire Galactic Senate like a fiddle, arranging everything so he'd wind up on top.

Seeing ROS tomorrow, so expect another post about Bitch Boy from me very soon...

OK, to each one's one and we all can individually admire who we each decide to admire but, speaking strictly for myself, I'm personally LIVID that the original themes of SW ( good overcoming evil,individuals beating incredible odds for the good of others,  redemption, facing worst fears,etc.) have ALL been replaced by this 'tude of 'Celebrate someone for being so TOTALLY evil and powerful and admire them for ruining the lives of every single individual in an entire galaxy and be sure to laugh at &belittle anyone who attempts to stand in this individual's way!',

NOPE! NOPE! NOPE! NEVER! NEVER! NEVER! will I drink that particular Kool Aid  no matter how many others do so! AFIAC, Palp was a character I loathed, period- as oppose to loved to hate. 

  

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1 hour ago, Blergh said:

OK, to each one's one and we all can individually admire who we each decide to admire but, speaking strictly for myself, I'm personally LIVID that the original themes of SW ( good overcoming evil,individuals beating incredible odds for the good of others,  redemption, facing worst fears,etc.) have ALL been replaced by this 'tude of 'Celebrate someone for being so TOTALLY evil and powerful and admire them for ruining the lives of every single individual in an entire galaxy and be sure to laugh at &belittle anyone who attempts to stand in this individual's way!',

NOPE! NOPE! NOPE! NEVER! NEVER! NEVER! will I drink that particular Kool Aid  no matter how many others do so! AFIAC, Palp was a character I loathed, period- as oppose to loved to hate. 

  

And that's fair, and this has been covered in the thread already, but literally the only difference between Palpatine and Kylo Ren is that Kylo has been the manipulated instead of the manipulator, since even his invasion of Rey's consciousness was at first because of Snoke and then because he wanted her to help him kill Palpatine (again). The sad thing is that villain apologia has gone so far at this point that characters like Palpatine who have absolutely no redeeming qualities seem preferable to the coddling some "lesser" villains get.

What we know of Kylo/Ben's childhood is that his parents gave him love and encouragement, that they treated him with kindness and raised him as best they could despite the troubles between them, that he was taken in and trained by his uncle Luke, one of the greatest Jedi ever. And Han could say whatever he liked about the little shit having too much Vader in him, you can only use that as an excuse for so long. I feel sorry for Adam Driver that he's been saddled with this as his breakout role, and watching Daisy Ridley tiptoe around acknowledging how gross and toxic the Rey/Kylo thing is so that the Twidiots don't eat her alive is wildly uncomfortable, but they're real people and their characters aren't.

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So. Rise of Skywalker.

We had that brief beautiful moment of Rey impaling him with his lightsaber the same way he killed Han...and then she healed him. I screamed "GODAMMIT REY!" I mean, she did it for Leia, and I get that. But still! We. We're. So. CLOSE! 

And it was feeling his mother die that finally--FINALLY--got the little shit to feel some shame and remorse for what he'd done. And he actually expressed that remorse, like Vader did. I'll give him that. And I'll give him that he sacrificed himself to save Rey, doing one good thing in his rotten entitled life.

But the kiss?! I nearly threw up in my mouth. That was so unnecessary. He didn't love Rey, it was obsession and lust because she was the Emperor's granddaughter. Don't pander to the Reylo people, especially when they're pitching a fit because Ben died instead of living happily ever after. That wasn't gonna happen. He had to pay the piper just like Vader did.

So it wasn't what I wanted but I'll accept it. It's better than Cersei and Ross getting no comeuppance at all. Though I really think they squandered an opportunity to have Chewie confront him when he was held prisoner.

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7 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

So. Rise of Skywalker.

 

  Hide contents

We had that brief beautiful moment of Rey impaling him with his lightsaber the same way he killed Han...and then she healed him. I screamed "GODAMMIT REY!" I mean, she did it for Leia, and I get that. But still! We. We're. So. CLOSE! 

And it was feeling his mother die that finally--FINALLY--got the little shit to feel some shame and remorse for what he'd done. And he actually expressed that remorse, like Vader did. I'll give him that. And I'll give him that he sacrificed himself to save Rey, doing one good thing in his rotten entitled life.

But the kiss?! I nearly threw up in my mouth. That was so unnecessary. He didn't love Rey, it was obsession and lust because she was the Emperor's granddaughter. Don't pander to the Reylo people, especially when they're pitching a fit because Ben died instead of living happily ever after. That wasn't gonna happen. He had to pay the piper just like Vader did.

So it wasn't what I wanted but I'll accept it. It's better than Cersei and Ross getting no comeuppance at all. Though I really think they squandered an opportunity to have Chewie confront him when he was held prisoner.

 

🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🤬🤬🤬🤬

Ooh! Another one who DESERVES to be in this thread: The sheriff of Nottingham in the animated Robin Hood. That ASSHAT even stole from the friar and CHURCH! Yes, stole!! He got off too easy!🤬🤬🤬🤬

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15 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🤬🤬🤬🤬

Ooh! Another one who DESERVES to be in this thread: The sheriff of Nottingham in the animated Robin Hood. That ASSHAT even stole from the friar and CHURCH! Yes, stole!! He got off too easy!🤬🤬🤬🤬

And stole from the little bunny ON HIS BIRTHDAY and from a blind beggar (who was really Robin in disguise but that's irrelevant.) The scene where Friar Tuck finally snaps and beats the crap out of him was sooooo satisfying.

Edited by Spartan Girl
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The Dukes from Trading Places. Greedy, racist, condescending snobs that messed with people's lives whenever they were bored. I don't blame Louis for wanting to shoot them when they found out they ruined his life for a ONE DOLLAR bet.

Edited by Spartan Girl
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18 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

The Dukes from Trading Places. Greedy, racist, condescending snobs that messed with people's lives whenever they were bored. I don't blame Lois for wanting to shoot them when they found out they ruined his life for a ONE DOLLAR bet.

It's Louis!!!!!!😆 And they got theirs in Coming to America. We saw them as homeless hobos, who Eddie's Prince threw some money at out of pity.

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27 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

It's Louis!!!!!!😆 And they got theirs in Coming to America. We saw them as homeless hobos, who Eddie's Prince threw some money at out of pity.

1) Crap, I hate my iPad keyboard.

2) It was apparently enough to get them back on easy street. Hope to God that Louis, Billy Ray, Ophelia and Coleman were far away enough so that the Dukes would never track them down...

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So @GHScorpiosRule I rewatched Disney's Robin Hood a while ago, even though  and I want to give another mention to the Sheriff, who really was a villain with no bottom.  Aside from stealing money from the church and from beggars, the way he stole the dog's money by pouring it out of his leg cast further injuring him (or at the very least causing him more pain) was just despicable.  And I really loathe how he did it all with the amiable "just doing my job, you're the ones being unreasonable" attitude.

And Prince John deserves a mention in this thread too.  A greedy petulant asshole that went apeshit every time someone brought up King Richard and got so buttsore about that song Robin and the gang made up about him that he taxed the whole town into prison!  Reminds me of a certain someone who definitely deserves a rewritten version of "The Phony King of England." 😉

 

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5 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

So @GHScorpiosRule I rewatched Disney's Robin Hood a while ago, even though  and I want to give another mention to the Sheriff, who really was a villain with no bottom.  Aside from stealing money from the church and from beggars, the way he stole the dog's money by pouring it out of his leg cast further injuring him (or at the very least causing him more pain) was just despicable.  And I really loathe how he did it all with the amiable "just doing my job, you're the ones being unreasonable" attitude.

 

That's EXACTLY the scene that had me posting here about adding that asshat to this thread. And for many years, I thought he was a BEAR! Not a wolf! Must be his fat, lardy ass that made me think so.

6 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

And Prince John deserves a mention in this thread too.  A greedy petulant asshole that went apeshit every time someone brought up King Richard and got so buttsore about that song Robin and the gang made up about him that he taxed the whole town into prison!  Reminds me of a certain someone who definitely deserves a rewritten version of "The Phony King of England." 😉

Yes he does, but he's so bluidy incompetent, and as you state, a petulant, childish asshole (his constant "Mummy!" while sucking on his thumb (which makes me 🤣😆)) , he's too much of a loser and whiner for me to think him so TRULY EVUHL, even though he is. If that makes sense. 

Oh, no, no. No similarities to that lardass Henry VIII! Not at ALL. [insert sarcasm].

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2 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Oh, no, no. No similarities to that lardass Henry VIII! Not at ALL. [insert sarcasm].

I was referring to someone more current but yes, the Henry VIII comparison is spot on too

guardians of the galaxy wink GIF

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2 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

I was referring to someone more current but yes, the Henry VIII comparison is spot on too

guardians of the galaxy wink GIF

Ohhhhhh! I get it. Yep.

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1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

And Prince John deserves a mention in this thread too.  A greedy petulant asshole that went apeshit every time someone brought up King Richard and got so buttsore about that song Robin and the gang made up about him that he taxed the whole town into prison!  Reminds me of a certain someone who definitely deserves a rewritten version of "The Phony King of England." 😉

 

I find John to be an interesting historical figure who's true villainy has never really been explored in movies too much.  Dude was one of the worst kings ever to rule England and was like the Disney version but much crueler.  I don't know if I have ever seen a film version of John where you have him arranging the murder of his nephew so he can inherit the throne.  And then you have John refusing to pay his brother's ransom so he can keep being regent in England.  

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3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

So @GHScorpiosRule I rewatched Disney's Robin Hood a while ago, even though  and I want to give another mention to the Sheriff, who really was a villain with no bottom.  Aside from stealing money from the church and from beggars, the way he stole the dog's money by pouring it out of his leg cast further injuring him (or at the very least causing him more pain) was just despicable.  And I really loathe how he did it all with the amiable "just doing my job, you're the ones being unreasonable" attitude.

He's probably the second best Sheriff of Nottingham we've had on screen, after Alan Rickman's wonderfully absurd pantomime villain. It's not just his attitude that is infuriating, it's that folksy, 'aw shucks' voice that sounded like a thousand cantankerous-but-honest old cowboys in 1950s movies.

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I find John to be an interesting historical figure who's true villainy has never really been explored in movies too much.  Dude was one of the worst kings ever to rule England and was like the Disney version but much crueler.  I don't know if I have ever seen a film version of John where you have him arranging the murder of his nephew so he can inherit the throne.  And then you have John refusing to pay his brother's ransom so he can keep being regent in England.  

His motivations, from what I know, weren't dissimilar to the Disney version. He was greedy and venal, and had so many insecurity issues as the last of five sons, and clearly the least of them. I've read a few great book versions of him, but one of my favourite was in Elizabeth Chadwick's books about William Marshal.

We only ever really see John framed as the imposter trying to steal his brother's throne (not that Richard was any good as a king either), when most of his true villainy came after he held the throne in his own right - Having Arthur of Brittany murdered, losing most of the lands his father had painstakingly carved into an empire, imposing ever more demanding taxes on his nobles, then stripping many of their lands on false charges. He was even excommunicated from the Catholic Church in a dispute over his wish to grant the archbishopric of Canterbury to one of his supporters.

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3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

He's probably the second best Sheriff of Nottingham we've had on screen, after Alan Rickman's wonderfully absurd pantomime villain. It's not just his attitude that is infuriating, it's that folksy, 'aw shucks' voice that sounded like a thousand cantankerous-but-honest old cowboys in 1950s movies.

Oh I DESPISE folksy-sounding villains. Probably one of the reasons I hated the movie Fargo. And Jerry definitely deserves to be on this thread for being a lying, cowardly selfish ASSHOLE who threw his wife to the wolves and got her killed. No I don't care he never intended for things to go that sideways, you don't hire felons to kidnap your wife.

Guy from Rosemary's Baby is another villain in that vein. He sold his wife to be date-raped and impregnated by Satan for his precious career. 

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A great quote by Harlan Ellison:

I have very little sympathy for people who do bad things. I don't care if your mommy locked you in the basement. Stop doing it.

Sorry, just had to share that.

Anyhoo, one of my favorite villains from a comedy is Franklin Hart (or, as Violet Newstead calls him, "F. Hart") from 9 to 5. Dabney Coleman plays the hell out of this "sexist, egotistical, lying, hypocritical bigot", and seeing him get fed his just desserts is a delight to watch again and again.

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On ‎2‎/‎15‎/‎2020 at 6:22 PM, Wiendish Fitch said:

A great quote by Harlan Ellison:

I have very little sympathy for people who do bad things. I don't care if your mommy locked you in the basement. Stop doing it.

Sorry, just had to share that.

Another great thinker said, "cool motive, still murder."

Modern media's obsession with explaining villains, both real and imagined, is definitely a troubling trend. I lose count of how many TV shows there have been in the last few years that make murderers sexy and alluring. The latest in the zeitgeist seems to be You where, because the main character is played by a very handsome guy, he's swooned over and there have actually been articles written about how his victim was a worse person than him.

Oh look, here's one.

No wonder I never, ever watch shit like this.

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In fairness, You is a pretty good show and it doesn't hide or gloss over the fact that Joe is a psychotic stalker.  It's the fangirls that put him on a pedestal.

I've recently gained a newfound appreciation for the way Gene Hackman played Lex Luthor in the Superman movies.  And Superman isn't a pushover when it comes to handling evil people.  He'll show compassion to those with a sliver of conscience or who aren't completely beyond redemption -- Miss Tessmacher, Gus Gorman (Richard Pryor), and even Lex's dumbass nephew, but he's not a hero that's constantly trying to redeem evil people.  

Case in point: Superman II it appears that Superman grudgingly accepts Lex's truce when he realizes Zod is more than he can handle.  But when Lex predictably doublecrosses him by telling Zod about powersucking crystals in the Fortress, it turns out that Superman knew it would happen, and used it so that he'd screw Zod and the Kryptionians out of their powers right under their noses.  Brilliant!

Back to favorite villains, The Princess Bride had great villains in Vizzini, Count Rugen, and Prince Humperdink.  Humperdink is a great subversion of the Prince Charming trope -- that's how it's done, writers!  Watching Vizzini and Rugen get killed was awesome, but Wesley just leaving Humperdink alive to stew in his own cowardice was very satisfying.

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14 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Another great thinker said, "cool motive, still murder."

Modern media's obsession with explaining villains, both real and imagined, is definitely a troubling trend. I lose count of how many TV shows there have been in the last few years that make murderers sexy and alluring. The latest in the zeitgeist seems to be You where, because the main character is played by a very handsome guy, he's swooned over and there have actually been articles written about how his victim was a worse person than him.

 

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

In fairness, You is a pretty good show and it doesn't hide or gloss over the fact that Joe is a psychotic stalker.  It's the fangirls that put him on a pedestal.

Ya'll should appreciate this:

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/entertainment/a25847304/penn-badgley-romanticising-character-you-netflix-twitter/?fbclid=IwAR3H3dKYosdUTSzoFz7hicU96F7W9szW1E5ccPNAgIk3cWulONfxanV8PhI

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Ransom in Knives Out -- a literal wolf in sheep's clothing, with the fuzzy white sweater to prove it!

Chris Evans can really pull off playing assholes well, and the fact that he successfully played a guy who hated and was hated by dogs when it's known how much he ADORES dogs in real life shows that he's an even better actor than we thought!

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15 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Ransom in Knives Out -- a literal wolf in sheep's clothing, with the fuzzy white sweater to prove it!

Chris Evans can really pull off playing assholes well, and the fact that he successfully played a guy who hated and was hated by dogs when it's known how much he ADORES dogs in real life shows that he's an even better actor than we thought!

Seconding this. Really, pretty much everyone in that family was a villain (or, at the very least, an utterly crappy human being).

I love Knives Out, it was my favorite movie of 2019 (and the final scene has become one of my favorite happy endings ever).

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3 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Seconding this. Really, pretty much everyone in that family was a villain (or, at the very least, an utterly crappy human being).

I love Knives Out, it was my favorite movie of 2019 (and the final scene has become one of my favorite happy endings ever).

Definitely.  I loved every minute of that movie, and I thought it's vindication for Rian Johnson after all the grief he got over The Last Jedi that he made the most successful movies of the year while JJ's The Rise of Skywalker was mediocre (and I'm being generous).  In short, all the Star Wars trolls, manbabies, and Reylo stans can

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1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

In short, all the Star Wars trolls, manbabies, and Reylo stans can

Not everyone who disliked The Last Jedi is any of these things.  There were plenty of valid criticisms lobbed at the film.  I haven't seen The Rise of Skywalker so I can't compare, but I can say that TLJ put me off watching any more of the new Star Wars films.  I'll stick with the original trilogy.

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3 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Not everyone who disliked The Last Jedi is any of these things.  There were plenty of valid criticisms lobbed at the film.  I haven't seen The Rise of Skywalker so I can't compare, but I can say that TLJ put me off watching any more of the new Star Wars films.  I'll stick with the original trilogy.

I didn't mean to imply such, I was just referring those that were harassing Rian Johnson and sending him death threats. Perhaps I should have made that clearer, sorry.

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4 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

I didn't mean to imply such, I was just referring those that were harassing Rian Johnson and sending him death threats. Perhaps I should have made that clearer, sorry.

Oh, those people definitely sucked, that's for sure.  Even the worst movie ever doesn't merit that behavior.  And Last Jedi was hardly the worst movie ever.

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Is it wrong that even though I'm sick of villain apologia I still love Wicked? I'm seeing it again at my theater next month and I'm eager for the movie version -- postponing it for Cats, bad move Hollywood. 

I mean, I agree the Witch of the West is more fun when she's evil, but I don't even consider the show in the same universe as the original Wizard of Oz movie, which is why I don't consider it villain apologia, more like fan fiction, or if it is, it's at least done right. You don't see Elphaba blaming her crappy childhood or whining about how everyone sucks -- even when she has good reason to. 

But love or hate the show, the one thing it got right that must be acknowledged in the original movie: the Wizard was a villain too, or at least a total asshole. I mean, he's a two-bit conman who tricks Oz into making them their leader and sends Dorothy and their gang to the Witch -- to certain DOOM -- to cover his own ass. And yeah he does try to atone for it by taking Dorothy back home in his balloon but he winds up failing at that too (even if Toto caused it by going after the stupid cat).

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With Max von Sydow's passing, shall we have a moment of silence for Ming the Merciless?

Animated GIF

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